Nonsense. A lack of empathy is not normal (not less empathy, no empathy). Sure, teenagers often have behaviors on this spectrum, but that's why it is a disease: because you're supposed to grow out of it. Instead of normal development, people with narcissism go deeper into, and refine behaviors that should have been extinguished.
The argument of this paper is essentially: There is a spectrum of narcissistic behavior, therefore it can't be a disease. That makes no sense. Just because there are people that have some narcissistic behavior but aren't narcissists, doesn't mean that there aren't people who are clearly narcissists and need to be prevented from acquiring any authority over others. Show me a narcissist who has lead to positive outcomes when they have been given authority over anything (more importantly anyone). You can't lead productively without empathy.
Narcissism is definitely in the spotlight right now and it's incredible how many people are outing themselves to insist it's actually fine or doesn't exist.
Malignant-Narcissism and associated mental illnesses is "in the spotlight right now"
>It’s generally understood as involving traits from several conditions, especially:
>>Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)
>>Antisocial Personality Disorder
>>paranoid traits
>>aggression
>> sadism
>>extreme need for control or domination
>>Common characteristics associated with malignant narcissism include:
>>>Grandiosity (“I’m superior”)
>>>Exploitative behavior
>>>Lack of remorse
>>>Impulsivity
>>>Manipulation and deceit
>>>Compulsive Lying (automatically/ habitually, even when there’s little obvious benefit.)<
>>>Rage when criticized (“narcissistic injury”)<
>>>Paranoia (seeing enemies everywhere)<
>>>callousness, and strategic aggression. Aggression used deliberately and instrumentally to achieve a goal<
>>>Enjoyment of humiliating or controlling others<
>>>Obsession with power and status< >>>Demanding loyalty<
The fact that something isn't a disease does not mean that something is also fine or doesn't exist. Not saying this is the case with narcissism, but this reasoning is just weird to me. For example, some people are flaky, flakiness is not a disease, but it is not fine and it definitely exists.
Agreed. A confident or ambitious person is not the same as someone who chronically exploits others, cannot tolerate criticism, devalues people, and has impaired empathy.
The article blurs normal narcissistic traits, pathological narcissism, and Narcissistic Personality Disorder. NPD is not diagnosed just because someone is confident, ambitious, self-focused, or dominant.
Clinically, it involves a persistent pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, lack of empathy, entitlement, exploitation, and impairment, usually beginning by early adulthood.
Unfortunately since we've invented bullshit machines (i.e. ChatGPT; "bullshit" being an academic definition, look it up) everyone and their pet is able to convince themselves, with their bullshit machine, that their bullshit isn't actually bullshit.
There's already an explosion of youtube videos and blogs of people convinced they're inventing the "next big theory" while misusing basic words most people learn the definition of in high school.
Almost always you will find that they don't fundamentally understand the theories they are building on or critiquing, because again, they're bullshitting.
In some points the term "Phatological Narcisist" is used to mark that difference.
The intention is to show how narcissistic behavior is commonly seen as something very far from the "normal", but our society engine is very similar to narcissistic behavior.
> That's not really the argument of the paper.
>
>
It's not an academic paper, it's a blog post that doesn't even link to any of its sources. You don't even state you are the author and therefore are just farming engagment.
The issue is not so much that we all have ego, cause we do, but rather the solipsistic worldview where you only see yourself as the real one, dismissiveness towards morality (since morality is in some views seen as a “way of control”), dominance (the toxic kind where one is recklessly stepping on others and abusing any leverage they have to exploit others), manipulative behaviours, things like that.
They are so survivalistic and selfish that they cannot see that it ruins the sheer definition of “civilized world”. Status chasing at all costs in any way just ruins us as people. It makes loneliness worse, makes world harder to bear, makes you feel alienated, disgusted, misanthropic, cause they do not think about what they promote and stand for with their worldview. People want genuine connection, not transactionality and utilitarianism in relationships.
Total and absolute nonsense, the problem is precisely that those exact same traits are mistaken for competence. It’s precisely what is behind the Peter Principle and what has lead to the present crisis. Ignorant, egocentric, stupid people in positions of power.
Psychopaths are highly valued in the C-Suite for a reason, it’s no wonder corporations become sociopathic and destructive to society.
I'm not actually a narcisist, but I was raised by one, so good part of my perspective about the world is based on that logic.
After 4 years of therapy I've realized all kinds of abuse that happened to me.
I was raised taught to pleasure and priorize other people above myself, so I was always read by other people as an empathic and selfless person.
In my actual relationship I've realized that I use this behavior is a well-intentioned form of invasion, almost like a "passive assault", and I'm working along my partner to realize all of this behaviors and solve it in our relationship. That's my "self criticism" part in the article.
I'm sorry for any misunderstanding word, my native language is portuguese.
I feel like the personal angle would have been more interesting than the medical one for your article.
You have a real personal experience related to Narcissism. That experience actually gives you some amount of experise on the subject of growing up with a narcissistic parent. I could be wrong, but I don't believe you have expertise when it comes to medecine, diagnosing, disorder taxonomy, etc.
People usually want to read articles from writers with actual expertise on subject being discussed. Generally, I think expertise make the difference between articles and blog posts. And I think that verifiable credentials and sources probably make the difference between and article and a paper (in the research/scientific sense).
> These behaviors are present in all of us, to a greater or lesser extent. It’s not hard to slap the narcissist label on anyone in the world if our view is biased and focused on “finding” those traits. Realizing this is already a huge problem. The DSM (which is kind of the bible of mental disorders) is a powerful tool that, depending on how it’s used, can ruin someone’s life.
To be honest, I'm not sure you have the necessary medical background to make the claims you're making in your article.
What makes a disorder is not necessarily the presence of symptoms otherwise absent in healthy individuals.
An unusual frequency or intensity of symptoms also present in healthy individuals can be sufficient to determine that a condition is a disorder. Just like some amount of cholesterol in the human body is normal, but above a certain number it's diagnosed as high-cholesterol.
I'm not saying that a medical degree should be required to write about Narcissism, but I think the medical/scientific approach that you choose for this article does require more expert knowledge. I told want to write about Narcissism, I feel like you would be more successful coming at it from the social commentary angle.
My mom pretended to have autism to hide her narcissism diagnosis to take advantage and be abusive to me and my autistic dad. I am struggling to make friends with people that aren’t narcissists pretending to be autistic now. It’s a scary world
This is a bad article. NPD is one of my clinical specialties (i work in forensics so have interviewed and worked with many very anti social and narcissistic clients) and OP just confounded a lot of stuff. Its good to try and make sense of the world. The psychoanalytic idea of secondary narcissism really had no place here and I wonder where that came from. Also we do see most disorders as on a spectrum but this is one of my biggest pet peeves lay people get wrong - just because its a spectrum not everyone is on it. Schizophrenia is a spectrum it doesnt range from No schizophrenia to Severe schizophrenia.. the beginning of the spectrum is still someone with schizophrenia. This mistake is rampant with Autism Spectrum Disorder - we arent all on that spectrum. The only people on the spectrum… have autism. It ranges from mild to severe, TikTok has convinced kids and young folk we are all on the spectrum and thats wrong. Also it’s obvious that narcissistic qualities are rewarded in most societies that isn’t a new idea.
I am Ozymandias, King of Kings... The narcissistic pathology at its extreme would value self over others to the point where the narcissist would not recognize the value of the external world except as a reflection of him/her self. A vast unlivable desert, as in Shelley's poem, or the end of the world through war or destruction of the environment could be the outcome of this total lack of empathy and ability to care about other human beings and you hesitate to call it a pathology?
People in this thread are too fixated on the title. This article puts forward a model of narcissistic behavior so we can all understand it better, rather than furthering the idea that narcissism is some kind of brain disease. Y'all, if you think science has sufficient evidence for the causality of the brain in human behavior, I have a bridge to sell you. You can't point to narcissim in the brain. It doesn't show up on a brain scan. A behavioral model is more useful.
> We are used to seeing narcissism as a disease, as if a narcissistic person were someone completely different from what is “normal.” So, we slap a label on this person that separates them from what is considered healthy and standard in society
Written by someone either really ignorant of what narcissistic behavior is or is one themselves. Go talk to victims of narcissists before you defend calling their behavior healthy.
Theres’s a real counter problem where supposedly intellectual discussions about narcissism can minimize abusive dynamics by reframing them as ordinary ego behavior or social constructs.
jawdirk | 19 hours ago
Nonsense. A lack of empathy is not normal (not less empathy, no empathy). Sure, teenagers often have behaviors on this spectrum, but that's why it is a disease: because you're supposed to grow out of it. Instead of normal development, people with narcissism go deeper into, and refine behaviors that should have been extinguished.
The argument of this paper is essentially: There is a spectrum of narcissistic behavior, therefore it can't be a disease. That makes no sense. Just because there are people that have some narcissistic behavior but aren't narcissists, doesn't mean that there aren't people who are clearly narcissists and need to be prevented from acquiring any authority over others. Show me a narcissist who has lead to positive outcomes when they have been given authority over anything (more importantly anyone). You can't lead productively without empathy.
Sharkhous | 18 hours ago
Narcissism is definitely in the spotlight right now and it's incredible how many people are outing themselves to insist it's actually fine or doesn't exist.
Tall_Trifle_4983 | 16 hours ago
Malignant-Narcissism and associated mental illnesses is "in the spotlight right now"
>It’s generally understood as involving traits from several conditions, especially: >>Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) >>Antisocial Personality Disorder >>paranoid traits >>aggression >> sadism >>extreme need for control or domination
>>Common characteristics associated with malignant narcissism include: >>>Grandiosity (“I’m superior”) >>>Exploitative behavior >>>Lack of remorse >>>Impulsivity >>>Manipulation and deceit >>>Compulsive Lying (automatically/ habitually, even when there’s little obvious benefit.)< >>>Rage when criticized (“narcissistic injury”)< >>>Paranoia (seeing enemies everywhere)< >>>callousness, and strategic aggression. Aggression used deliberately and instrumentally to achieve a goal< >>>Enjoyment of humiliating or controlling others< >>>Obsession with power and status< >>>Demanding loyalty<
LateTicket565 | 4 hours ago
The fact that something isn't a disease does not mean that something is also fine or doesn't exist. Not saying this is the case with narcissism, but this reasoning is just weird to me. For example, some people are flaky, flakiness is not a disease, but it is not fine and it definitely exists.
snksleepy | 18 hours ago
I believe it falls in the realm of mental health issues. It's tied to early childhood reinforce behaviors.
Cortex1484 | 9 hours ago
Agreed. A confident or ambitious person is not the same as someone who chronically exploits others, cannot tolerate criticism, devalues people, and has impaired empathy.
The article blurs normal narcissistic traits, pathological narcissism, and Narcissistic Personality Disorder. NPD is not diagnosed just because someone is confident, ambitious, self-focused, or dominant.
Clinically, it involves a persistent pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, lack of empathy, entitlement, exploitation, and impairment, usually beginning by early adulthood.
rzm25 | 12 hours ago
Unfortunately since we've invented bullshit machines (i.e. ChatGPT; "bullshit" being an academic definition, look it up) everyone and their pet is able to convince themselves, with their bullshit machine, that their bullshit isn't actually bullshit.
There's already an explosion of youtube videos and blogs of people convinced they're inventing the "next big theory" while misusing basic words most people learn the definition of in high school.
Almost always you will find that they don't fundamentally understand the theories they are building on or critiquing, because again, they're bullshitting.
BalognaPonyParty | 17 hours ago
I'm glad I'm not the only one calling bullshit on this
redyellowblue5031 | 15 hours ago
Is autism a disease? Because that’s a spectrum, too.
[OP] JorginhoXablau | 18 hours ago
That's not really the argument of the paper.
In some points the term "Phatological Narcisist" is used to mark that difference. The intention is to show how narcissistic behavior is commonly seen as something very far from the "normal", but our society engine is very similar to narcissistic behavior.
Apocalympdick | 17 hours ago
> our society engine is very similar to narcissistic behavior
Yes, and our society is deeply diseased.
mrnotoriousman | 15 hours ago
> That's not really the argument of the paper. > >
It's not an academic paper, it's a blog post that doesn't even link to any of its sources. You don't even state you are the author and therefore are just farming engagment.
Brbi2kCRO | 19 hours ago
The issue is not so much that we all have ego, cause we do, but rather the solipsistic worldview where you only see yourself as the real one, dismissiveness towards morality (since morality is in some views seen as a “way of control”), dominance (the toxic kind where one is recklessly stepping on others and abusing any leverage they have to exploit others), manipulative behaviours, things like that.
They are so survivalistic and selfish that they cannot see that it ruins the sheer definition of “civilized world”. Status chasing at all costs in any way just ruins us as people. It makes loneliness worse, makes world harder to bear, makes you feel alienated, disgusted, misanthropic, cause they do not think about what they promote and stand for with their worldview. People want genuine connection, not transactionality and utilitarianism in relationships.
Edgar_Brown | 15 hours ago
Total and absolute nonsense, the problem is precisely that those exact same traits are mistaken for competence. It’s precisely what is behind the Peter Principle and what has lead to the present crisis. Ignorant, egocentric, stupid people in positions of power.
Psychopaths are highly valued in the C-Suite for a reason, it’s no wonder corporations become sociopathic and destructive to society.
ilanallama85 | 19 hours ago
Wow, a narcissist unironically writes an opinion piece claiming “we’re all narcissists, actually.” Color me shocked.
[OP] JorginhoXablau | 18 hours ago
I'm not actually a narcisist, but I was raised by one, so good part of my perspective about the world is based on that logic.
After 4 years of therapy I've realized all kinds of abuse that happened to me. I was raised taught to pleasure and priorize other people above myself, so I was always read by other people as an empathic and selfless person.
In my actual relationship I've realized that I use this behavior is a well-intentioned form of invasion, almost like a "passive assault", and I'm working along my partner to realize all of this behaviors and solve it in our relationship. That's my "self criticism" part in the article.
I'm sorry for any misunderstanding word, my native language is portuguese.
ImhotepsServant | 17 hours ago
Do you find you emulate narcissistic behaviour when you are stressed?
[OP] JorginhoXablau | 13 hours ago
Yes, especially when the source of stress is frustration
ImhotepsServant | 13 hours ago
I see that pretty frequently. You know you’re doing it but can’t stop until you calm down?
Retropiaf | 14 hours ago
I feel like the personal angle would have been more interesting than the medical one for your article.
You have a real personal experience related to Narcissism. That experience actually gives you some amount of experise on the subject of growing up with a narcissistic parent. I could be wrong, but I don't believe you have expertise when it comes to medecine, diagnosing, disorder taxonomy, etc.
People usually want to read articles from writers with actual expertise on subject being discussed. Generally, I think expertise make the difference between articles and blog posts. And I think that verifiable credentials and sources probably make the difference between and article and a paper (in the research/scientific sense).
wehrmann_tx | 6 hours ago
So doing stuff for other people is invasion and passive assault.
This is the kind of pendulum swing where you lose everyone and you just sound ridiculous.
Retropiaf | 14 hours ago
> These behaviors are present in all of us, to a greater or lesser extent. It’s not hard to slap the narcissist label on anyone in the world if our view is biased and focused on “finding” those traits. Realizing this is already a huge problem. The DSM (which is kind of the bible of mental disorders) is a powerful tool that, depending on how it’s used, can ruin someone’s life.
To be honest, I'm not sure you have the necessary medical background to make the claims you're making in your article.
What makes a disorder is not necessarily the presence of symptoms otherwise absent in healthy individuals. An unusual frequency or intensity of symptoms also present in healthy individuals can be sufficient to determine that a condition is a disorder. Just like some amount of cholesterol in the human body is normal, but above a certain number it's diagnosed as high-cholesterol.
I'm not saying that a medical degree should be required to write about Narcissism, but I think the medical/scientific approach that you choose for this article does require more expert knowledge. I told want to write about Narcissism, I feel like you would be more successful coming at it from the social commentary angle.
the_skies_falling | 18 hours ago
Correct, it’s not a disease. It’s a personality disorder.
Far_Being2906 | 13 hours ago
This opinion piece is bullshit. It has been shown it is a mental disease. I trust MDs more than a blogger.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662
SnowyNW | 12 hours ago
My mom pretended to have autism to hide her narcissism diagnosis to take advantage and be abusive to me and my autistic dad. I am struggling to make friends with people that aren’t narcissists pretending to be autistic now. It’s a scary world
karl_hungas | 6 hours ago
This is a bad article. NPD is one of my clinical specialties (i work in forensics so have interviewed and worked with many very anti social and narcissistic clients) and OP just confounded a lot of stuff. Its good to try and make sense of the world. The psychoanalytic idea of secondary narcissism really had no place here and I wonder where that came from. Also we do see most disorders as on a spectrum but this is one of my biggest pet peeves lay people get wrong - just because its a spectrum not everyone is on it. Schizophrenia is a spectrum it doesnt range from No schizophrenia to Severe schizophrenia.. the beginning of the spectrum is still someone with schizophrenia. This mistake is rampant with Autism Spectrum Disorder - we arent all on that spectrum. The only people on the spectrum… have autism. It ranges from mild to severe, TikTok has convinced kids and young folk we are all on the spectrum and thats wrong. Also it’s obvious that narcissistic qualities are rewarded in most societies that isn’t a new idea.
JphysicsDude | 19 hours ago
I am Ozymandias, King of Kings... The narcissistic pathology at its extreme would value self over others to the point where the narcissist would not recognize the value of the external world except as a reflection of him/her self. A vast unlivable desert, as in Shelley's poem, or the end of the world through war or destruction of the environment could be the outcome of this total lack of empathy and ability to care about other human beings and you hesitate to call it a pathology?
ClassyHoodGirl | 16 hours ago
What a bunch of absolute bullshit. Look at the most famous narc going right now and tell me he is not diseased.
seraphimicexcreta | 12 hours ago
People in this thread are too fixated on the title. This article puts forward a model of narcissistic behavior so we can all understand it better, rather than furthering the idea that narcissism is some kind of brain disease. Y'all, if you think science has sufficient evidence for the causality of the brain in human behavior, I have a bridge to sell you. You can't point to narcissim in the brain. It doesn't show up on a brain scan. A behavioral model is more useful.
arkofjoy | 11 hours ago
It is certainly a disease for anyone who has to live with a narcissist.
It may not be a disease for the narcissist, but it is for everyone who encounters them who has to say "No"
Cortex1484 | 9 hours ago
> We are used to seeing narcissism as a disease, as if a narcissistic person were someone completely different from what is “normal.” So, we slap a label on this person that separates them from what is considered healthy and standard in society
Written by someone either really ignorant of what narcissistic behavior is or is one themselves. Go talk to victims of narcissists before you defend calling their behavior healthy.
Theres’s a real counter problem where supposedly intellectual discussions about narcissism can minimize abusive dynamics by reframing them as ordinary ego behavior or social constructs.
wehrmann_tx | 6 hours ago
I full stopped when he was saying people are out there white knighting for narcissists and they are asking you to give them a break.
BlortTrolb | 2 hours ago
Worked at a psych ward, had a coworker whose narcissism was worse than Donald trump.
LargeSinkholesInNYC | 20 hours ago
We're cooked.
FrankRizzo319 | 13 hours ago
Why must we label every socially unacceptable thought, emotion, and behavior a disease?