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HTML Lists

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346 points by speckx a day ago on hackernews | 87 comments

jimmaswell | a day ago

Lots of useful information I wasn't aware of after being a front-end lead for years. I'll start using these at work for sure.

appplication | a day ago

This was a fun little read. Just through testing the examples, I also learned datalist does not seem to work well on mobile safari (which is a large enough market I might even say there’s essentially no scenario in which it’s worth using if there’s a compatibility issue).

MattGaiser | a day ago

Way back when I was working my first job, datalist didn’t work on Firefox. That’s what got Firefox removed from the list of supported browsers.

It has been a problem for a long time if you want to support anything other than Chrome.

Levitating | a day ago

> It has been a problem for a long time if you want to support anything other than Chrome.

That's partially because Chrome keeps adopting standards nobody else wants to support.

afavour | a day ago

Both things can be true. Chrome supports a bunch of non standard APIs but it also has some of the best coverage of standard APIs.

tosti | 18 hours ago

With Google coming up with most of the new stuff and having chairs in the committees, that's hardly surprising.

carlosjobim | a day ago

They work well but not with GBoard on iOS.

VorpalWay | a day ago

Doesn't work with Firefox on Android either.

masswerk | a day ago

Mind that input + datalist is the HTML equivalent of the Windows combobox, once generally regarded as the worst UI element ever. (This was enjoying meme status in usability related articles and write-ups. So probably not a recommendation.)

xigoi | 20 hours ago

What’s the better alternative for letting the user input arbitrary text with an easier way to input known options?

tshaddox | a day ago

The datalist examples definitely work on my iPhone. They integrate into the autocomplete suggestions above the native iOS keyboard. There’s no way to browse all the suggestions, but I suppose that’s not an intended use case for datalist.

However, the disabled attr on group definitely does not work!

appplication | a day ago

That’s funny, in my case it tries to autofill my contact information

king_geedorah | a day ago

It seems the autofill bar only populates with the first three items in the datalist and also does not clear when navigating to a regular text field like this one. Kind of an interesting way to have screwed it up.

tshaddox | 12 hours ago

It initially populates with the first 3 options, but it also updates as you type, with what appears to be a case-insensitive prefix filter.

yallpendantools | 23 hours ago

Ugh this is the dose of cold water from reality that I didn't want but definitely needed.

More than a decade ago I had a project that used a pretty aggressive input-suggestion widget on the UI. We used a jQuery plugin for it and it was by far the most complicated part of the frontend. In fact, it was the main use-case for jQuery in that project.

Reading the article, I thought it would be pretty much a breeze re-implementing that frontend in a lightweight JS-minimalist version. But of course, unless I ship my machine to the users, not really. Sad state of affairs.

Nonetheless, I'm really impressed with what's included in the HTML spec nowadays! I haven't kept-up with developments in the spec since I read all about XHTML in high school. I ought to take some time every now and then to see what's changed though, again, browser compatibility is a PITA today as it was back in high school.

zombot | a day ago

What I always wanted to know about lists and never dared to ask!

reconnecting | a day ago

This is how real HTML magic should look like:

<MARQUEE>

  <OL>
      <LI>One</LI>
      <LI>Two</LI>
      <LI>Three</LI>
  </OL>
</MARQUEE>

recroad | a day ago

    <BLINK>
      <MARQUEE>
        <OL>
          <LI>One</LI>
          <LI>Two</LI>
          <LI>Three</LI>
        </OL>
      </MARQUEE>
    </BLINK>
FTFY

reconnecting | a day ago

<MARK>FTFY</MARK>

Trufa | a day ago

blink wont work, but marquee will

wwweston | a day ago

Not with that attitude:

    <style>
    @keyframes blink {
        0% { opacity: 1; }
        50% { opacity: 0; }
        100% { opacity: 1; }
    }
    
    blink { animation: blink 0.7s infinite; }
    </style>

    <blink>This guy blinks.</blink>

Trufa | a day ago

people who use css are not welcome here.

Ancapistani | a day ago

It’s OK if it’s a polyfill.

Wait, not far enough back…

It’s OK if it’s a shim.

reconnecting | a day ago

What version of Macromedia Dreamweaver did you use to make this?

panzi | a day ago

Wasn't it more like this?

    <style>
    @keyframes blink {
        0% { visibility: visible; }
        50% { visibility: hidden; }
        100% { visibility: visible; }
    }
    
    blink { animation: blink 0.7s steps(1, end) infinite; }
    </style>

    <blink>This guy blinks.</blink>

reconnecting | a day ago

Since <BLINK> is gone, `BEHAVIOR=SLIDE` is the closest you'll get.

<MARQUEE DIRECTION="DOWN" BEHAVIOR="SLIDE">Slide</MARQUEE>

VladVladikoff | a day ago

>What if there’s a bunch of options, but for [reasons] we don’t want a user to be able to select a subset of them? Let’s add the disabled attribute to an optgroup

Seems broken in mobile safari, not actually disabled I can still select the disabled items.

p2detar | a day ago

Not broken, but strange since it should be working on latest Safari.

https://caniuse.com/mdn-html_elements_optgroup_disabled

I think it may be a Safari bug.

quantumleaper | a day ago

Your link states it's not supported in iOS Safari at all, even though it has been supported in macOS Safari since 2013.

p2detar | a day ago

Ha! You're right. Ironically, I was viewing it on my phone and I only saw the "Safari" column and not "Safari on iOS".

tvmalsv | a day ago

Came here to mention the same thing. Very well be on me, tho. I’m using the Brave browser (is it safari-powered?) and on iOS 18.7.9, which is the newest my old iPhone X supports.

somewhatgoated | a day ago

I think on iphone everything is safari powered(?)

Also doesnt work for me on iPhone Firefox

zamadatix | a day ago

This is the kind of thing I struggle with on using native HtML for more than the basics. Even if you do enough reading and have enough confidence to write an article like this the comments end up with quirks, limitations, or notes on lack of support about different browser+device combos.

Div soup is probably a bit far in the opposite direction, but even then it's at least pretty consistent and apparent what the quirks and limitations are because it aligns with what you or the framework wrote much more consistently.

montroser | a day ago

Good stuff, except don't get too excited about `datalist`. It just doesn't have enough hooks to be actually useful for anything other than a little prototype.

iammrpayments | a day ago

I think I’ve tried building a combobox using datalist once but it didn’t work

bombcar | a day ago

As you learn more about “raw” html you find all sorts of very fun things that are - ah - not very well implemented if at all.

jazzypants | a day ago

The neat thing about HTML is that it's a living standard and anyone can contribute. Old bugs get corrected all the time simply because it annoyed a certain person enough for them to push a fix through the standards process.

Unfortunately, it could be around a decade before all three major browsers finally implement the standard, and the fix might not be quite as clean as you originally imagined.

tosti | 18 hours ago

The reason is that there are lots of webpage authors, lots of pages that use old standards and very few browser implementations. That made the browsers carry the burden of making it all work right for everyone.

tosti | 18 hours ago

Case in point: the keygen element.

voidnap | a day ago

I've used a datalist for autocomplete suggestions and it's worked great.

theandrewbailey | a day ago

I've had problems with <datalist> not showing when the input is misspelled, or when none of the <options> strictly begin with the input. I gave up and used an <ol> instead.

MagicMoonlight | a day ago

That’s a really good article. It’s nice to see something which isn’t slop.

lucb1e | a day ago

Somehow I'm still in the mode where I'm surprised where it is, rather than when it isn't, but yeah it's annoyingly often. Do you come across it so much that it's your default expectation now?

zamadatix | a day ago

Yet the article and comments still feel the need to talk about AI when it was not otherwise involved. The inescapable topic!

paceaux | a day ago

I'm not quite sure what you mean about that… I do have a disclaimer in the sidebar that makes it clear that I'm not using AI — but that's solely so that people can appreciate that I put actual effort into writing it.

zamadatix | a day ago

The reply was meant to be on the GP, I must have-mis tapped, but since we're here now :D

> No need to ask AI for a summary; I’ll just give you the ending up front.

It's easy to miss how often we bring AI up about in conversation or writing given just how dominating a topic it can be in every circle these days.

paceaux | a day ago

ahhh.

Yeah I put it there just to discourage folks from asking some LLM to summarize it.

I really don't want my content fed to Sam Altman.

paceaux | a day ago

I'm writing articles like this just because I think the internet deserves some humanity for a change. Thanks for noticing.

jdw64 | a day ago

HTML linters actually help distinguish things like that? I'm curious if there are any linters out there that can enforce this kind of semantic tag selection.

wonger_ | a day ago

Closest thing I know of is https://github.com/kristoff-it/superhtml#diagnostics

  SuperHTML validates not only syntax but also element nesting and attribute values. No other language server implements the full HTML spec in its validation code.

jdw64 | 21 hours ago

thanks!

tosti | 17 hours ago

Enforce semantic tags? HTML is first and foremost meant for authors to get creative. Enforcing one tag over another doesn't make sense to me. Accessibility yes, but there are plenty of constraints already.

asveikau | a day ago

Title reminds me of Joni Mitchell.

    I've looked at lists from both sides now
    From give and take and still somehow
    It's HTML lists' illusions I recall 
    I really don't know HTML lists at all

ale | a day ago

I thought of the 2000 version first which made this much funnier in my head

WA | a day ago

And yet, no native select + search combined, which is a very common kind of list. The datalist is basically unusable, because you don't know any of the options.

porridgeraisin | 20 hours ago

and it is not styleable

dzonga | a day ago

this was a dope & comprehensive.

unfortunately we have a new class of dev's that never learned html but went straight for React. Now with LLMs they will never learn HTML.

hence they reach for react components where simple html would have been sufficient.

Ancapistani | a day ago

I think that’s OK.

When I first had to use XML, I had to learn the XML spec and output it manually - serialization libraries didn’t really exist yet. I’ve since seen generation of juniors come up through the ranks using XML as an interchange format (and then JSON) without ever learning it fully. It was fine, and nothing terrible happened.

I’ve seen AJAX go from the hot new thing to people not knowing what it stood for, to now most people not even recognizing the term. AJAX didn’t die; it became so common we don’t need a word for it anymore.

tyre | a day ago

Kind of like JQuery. I know why it was such an incredible library and am happy no new devs I work with (a) know what it is (b) understand why it was necessary.

Thank god the underlying language, libraries, and browser support have moved forward. And IE6 is dead. God, what a nightmare.

Ancapistani | a day ago

I remember when IE6 was the shiny new solution that we desperately wanted :).

IE 5.5 was much, much worse, and there was a long time there when it didn’t get any updates at all.

dzonga | 13 hours ago

if you learnt Ajax - it still works just like it did whether you're using the XHR api or the newer fetch api.

html forms still work the same way.

can one say the same for the various form libraries for react or state solutions.

Ancapistani | 9 hours ago

I’m aware of the entire progression, and objectively I’ve seen juniors come up without knowing “the old ways” at all. I’m not sure it’s a problem, but I also can’t quite wrap my head around the way they understand systems.

zarzavat | a day ago

To be honest HTML is a pain.

For example the HTML approach to style parts of a control is to use pseudoclasses. Sometimes the selectors are different across browsers! Then you have to test across browsers because who knows if it will actually work correctly.

React is not just easier it's more dependable. If I make something with React and some divs I know it's going to work the same in all browsers.

recursive | a day ago

The selectors are not different. Whatever problems you have applying styles to html elements also exist in react.

zarzavat | 22 hours ago

Yes they are.

For example, Blink/Webkit allow <meter> and <progress> to be styled. Firefox does not support those pseudoclasses so you can't style those elements cross browser.

Then there is <input type="range">

    Blink, Webkit:
    
    ::-webkit-slider-thumb
    ::-webkit-slider-runnable-track
    
    Firefox:
    
    ::-moz-range-thumb
    ::-moz-range-track
    ::-moz-range-progress
If I build a meter or progress bar in React, I can easily style it and because it uses divs and not wonky pseudoclasses then it looks the same in every browser.

anotherevan | a day ago

My problem is I thoroughly learned HTML twenty years ago and am only incidentally aware of how it has changed and improved since. Doubly so for CSS.

einpoklum | a day ago

tl;dr: You _do_ know HTML lists, they're basicaly like they used to be 20 years ago. But there are HTML form controls which are list-like and this will tell you about them: <select> and <datalist> which have <option> elements and <menu> which has <li> elements.

It's a nice read, not very long and you can kind of leisurely skim it.

nektro | a day ago

TIL <menu>, I wonder why more frameworks don't make use of it.

pphysch | a day ago

big brain no learn hyperspeak when many div do trick

stirfish | a day ago

<menu>, <dialog>, lots of fun stuff in html now.

I like to ask people what they imagine <ruby> does, because I certainly didn't guess right.

extra88 | a day ago

<dialog> is awesome, especially when combined with Invoker commands or `popover`. <menu> does nothing, it's just another name for <ul>.

paceaux | a day ago

<ruby> is going to be featured in my next article: You don't know HTML…Semantics.

I'm debating whether that one will be one or two articles because I'm going to be covering everything from <ruby>, <bdi>, <bdo> all the way through <var>, <kbd>, <samp>, <cite>, and <q>.

After that one, I'll probably have something like, "You don't know HTML interactions" or something to cover <dialog>, <popover>, and the Invoker API.

So sit tight; it's all coming.

extra88 | a day ago

Because for the user experience, it is identical to <ul>. Use <menu> if it helps you to understand your code but in the browser's accessibility tree and in all other respects, it's just an unordered list.

Conveying that something is a list of actions requires adding ARIA attributes. The article mentions `role=menu` but that's not enough, each item also needs the `menuitem` role. The WAI Authoring Practices Guide explains the roles and interaction expectations; don't copy their coded examples and definitely don't use the roles for navigation menus.

https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/patterns/menubar/

ksec | a day ago

Sigh. Just when I was cheering Safari, finally both on Desktop and on Mobile have gotten to the point of good enough.

And then to find out the list don't work on Safari iOS.

ale | a day ago

Now i need one that explains the css counters

paceaux | a day ago

I will probably write an entirely separate article just on the CSS options for lists. So ... don't hold your breath. But that will come. Eventually.

tuzemec | a day ago

Only if we had designers who like the default datalist appearance...

joshmoody24 | a day ago

In my experience, lack of style customizability is the biggest obstacle to using native HTML features

kevinh456 | a day ago

DL is a definition list not a description list.

melncat | a day ago

It was changed to description list in HTML5, which you would've learned if you actually read the article

timando | a day ago

In HTML 4. HTML 5 redefined it.

paceaux | a day ago

This is called out explicitly in the article as a shift from HTML4 to HTML5.

vivzkestrel | a day ago

- you guys write such nice blogs but i cant seem to ever get a list of all the posts on your blog in 1 go

- https://blog.frankmtaylor.com/archive doesnt work

- https://blog.frankmtaylor.com/archives nope

- https://blog.frankmtaylor.com/posts nada

- https://blog.frankmtaylor.com/all nil

- https://blog.frankmtaylor.com/blog nyet

- do you understand that most of us got 10000+ bookmarks and it would be really really handy if you could make a single page on your website that lists every post every written without the description or the entire article on it?

paceaux | a day ago

You mean a sitemap? Because you're talking about a sitemap. Most blogs have a sitemap.xml that lists all of the posts.

Also, why would you want to go through all 235 posts?

vivzkestrel | a day ago

no i am talking about a page like this

- https://www.seangoedecke.com/page/2 or

- https://mmapped.blog/posts this or

- https://kevinpatel.xyz/posts/ this

paceaux | a day ago

Good for them. I build my website around topics. If you just want a raw list of everything I've written, that's the sitemap. Otherwise, just browse by topics or even the tags on the posts.

adithyassekhar | 13 hours ago

Is this just an exercise to show how embarrassing safari is? /s