Article behind a paywall. Comment pasted is a good lead in for discussion. Are US- born workers worth the investment?
The answer is of course they are. Whatever the faults of US workers, the policy reality behind this sellout by US employers is far worse.
The same US-based ownership class that moved production overseas also systematically destroyed education, job training, labor rights, currency value, pension protections, and fought common sense healthcare solutions right to the current breaking point. This was done on a local, state and national level by the Republican Party, over the course of 50 years from the Nixon era onward.
The working class in the US is psychologically broken, with no path forward. You can’t blame the product of a system that was intentionally broken, except for their self defeating voting habits. It’s a massive advocacy and policy challenge to start to repair even some of this damage. But it’s worth trying. Hopefully some awareness of solidarity by working class voters will resurface.
Their self-defeating voting habits is the whole problem. The Republicans would not have come to power so strongly without their change in voting habits. I have no idea how we ever get these deep red states back, or what it looks like next in these areas. We've been trying to reach out/retrain these folks for what seems like generation now, to what end?
You are right about this. Community organizing is the answer, but it’s a long slow road and many people may have to suffer more consequences before they consider different viewpoints. The message can’t be D v R, it has to be class oriented.
All true, but it goes back much further than Nixon. Even pro labor presidents like TR never did enough to create a fair system for average Americans. This country’s entire history is corporate exploitation, from the railroads and dams up to the data centers and subscription services.
What do you believe the primary advantages and disadvantages of US work culture is, and what effect do you think these changes would have for work culture?
How does the value proposition for global firms compare between the US, China, India, and European countries?
When deciding on where to situate production for products that are sold globally, what do you think the determining factors should be? Should people in other countries symmetrically prefer the production of goods in their own country, and if so, how should these contradictions be handled?
For example, due to protectionist instincts, the US levies heavy tarrifs on the importation of automobiles. As a result, most automobiles in the US are manufactured in USMCA counties, with many foreign brands having plants in these countries. This raises the price of cars (in some cases significantly) but ensures the industry remains in the US.
Taken to its extreme, this results in a kind of autarky - the idea that all the needs of a country should be met in the country. Understood as a universal principle, other countries should symmetrically not want American products because they're produced by foreigners and don't help their own population. The synthesis is not that different from America First - we should oppose buying from foreigners but everyone else should buy from us. This is the reason that we've had trade wars and wild tariffs that have increased costs for the working classes especially.
I think instead of focusing on the problem of foreigners benefitting instead of Americans we should focus on workforce development such that people are able to provide higher skilled, higher value labor, along with systems that make upskilling in areas where the US has comparative advantage easier for working class people, such as healthcare and education. Addressing problems that significantly damage people's lives (as well as capacity to be productive) such as drug addiction need to be handled more seriously.
Is Zeeland pronounced Zay-lant (as we do in Dutch) or Zeeland -- like New Zealand?
> Even Hispanics who are citizens say they now carry their passports out of fear they could be nabbed.
Even I, a non-Hispanic, Dutchman -- albeit one of dodgy extract (Arab) -- have been carrying my passport on my person since September 11. And, it's come in handy twice since then.
In Windsor, Ontario, Canada, a lot of the manufacturing packed up and moved there from Detroit, Mi when the Canadian dollar dropped to like 50¢ on the dollar. For various manufacturing industries related to auto makers, especially plastic injection mold companies.
Then from there, a lot of the business were told that if they wanted to do business in China, they would have to send X percentage of work over to China and train their workers.
I knew a few guys that went to China for 6 months to train people on how to do the job.
Most of the biggest and most profitable companies in the world are American. That's who you're competing with for labor. It may be that the terms the commenter is offering are not attractive enough for skilled and intelligent American workers, they can find better jobs elsewhere. Why work long hard hours for low pay if you can get a decent, or even fantastic, office or management job?
I think one of the best examples of what is going on is Apple.
Apple used to build all the macs in the US or Ireland, and the pool of parts were all made in the US.
As manufacturing shifted slowly through the 90s to the commodity PC parts in asia, the people who made money were either the commodity kings (Dell), the OS/software makers in the US (Microsoft), or the Corporate backend software people (Oracle, SAP, etc). Apple moved their manufacturing to China, and slowly brought their engineering talent up, and took advantage of their moulding expertise (if you want plastic injection molds, the Chinese are the most skilled at making them; the Made-in-Japan parts are now using Chinese-made dies in the factories nowadays). Apple stood up their precision manufacturing, but kept the OS and software in the US. All the manufacturing is gone. The jobs are for highly educated software engineers.
A furniture maker, a water heater core manufacturer, or a light bulb production shop is all about engineering processes which can be learned or copied. But Apple - especially apple - grew their business off of harnessing the cheaper yet now competent production of China and the lock-in of their walled garden of iOS, without losing their lunch to some knock-off phone (yet).
Traditionally, there are all kinds of unskilled and skilled factory jobs, and nowadays the only place those seem to live on is where regulations make it infeasible to move them or are for local food production, or in support of more skilled industries.
But those jobs at "america's largest companies" are no longer remotely connected to manufacturing. Being a software dev or a very good welder or IT specialist is not unskilled labor - and the only Labor Amazon is interested in is picking orders while rollerskating and pissing into a bottle at the same time - also not a great option.
At every level, working-class labor is being squeezed - look at the 60 Minutes segment on Trucking being squeezed by overseas operations running fly-by-night freight companies, using shady management to escape regulations, make roads more dangerous, and shaft drivers out of pay. At every level, the working class is getting destroyed because their hands are seemingly not worth the cost to train, their knowledge or skills not worth retaining because the contract factory now has them - why buy build a barn and hire farmhands when you can easily buy the bottle of milk at the shop across the street? And you don't need a manager if there are no employees to manage.
Until there is some kind of equilibrium reached (through attrition, death, or different economic practices, as illustrated in the article), "just go work for a Major US company" means you will be a floor polisher working for whatever contract-company they hire to clean the data centers.
dirtysico | 10 days ago
Article behind a paywall. Comment pasted is a good lead in for discussion. Are US- born workers worth the investment?
The answer is of course they are. Whatever the faults of US workers, the policy reality behind this sellout by US employers is far worse.
The same US-based ownership class that moved production overseas also systematically destroyed education, job training, labor rights, currency value, pension protections, and fought common sense healthcare solutions right to the current breaking point. This was done on a local, state and national level by the Republican Party, over the course of 50 years from the Nixon era onward.
The working class in the US is psychologically broken, with no path forward. You can’t blame the product of a system that was intentionally broken, except for their self defeating voting habits. It’s a massive advocacy and policy challenge to start to repair even some of this damage. But it’s worth trying. Hopefully some awareness of solidarity by working class voters will resurface.
nighthawk_md | 10 days ago
Their self-defeating voting habits is the whole problem. The Republicans would not have come to power so strongly without their change in voting habits. I have no idea how we ever get these deep red states back, or what it looks like next in these areas. We've been trying to reach out/retrain these folks for what seems like generation now, to what end?
dirtysico | 10 days ago
You are right about this. Community organizing is the answer, but it’s a long slow road and many people may have to suffer more consequences before they consider different viewpoints. The message can’t be D v R, it has to be class oriented.
Vesploogie | 10 days ago
All true, but it goes back much further than Nixon. Even pro labor presidents like TR never did enough to create a fair system for average Americans. This country’s entire history is corporate exploitation, from the railroads and dams up to the data centers and subscription services.
thebowski | 10 days ago
What do you believe the primary advantages and disadvantages of US work culture is, and what effect do you think these changes would have for work culture?
How does the value proposition for global firms compare between the US, China, India, and European countries?
When deciding on where to situate production for products that are sold globally, what do you think the determining factors should be? Should people in other countries symmetrically prefer the production of goods in their own country, and if so, how should these contradictions be handled?
For example, due to protectionist instincts, the US levies heavy tarrifs on the importation of automobiles. As a result, most automobiles in the US are manufactured in USMCA counties, with many foreign brands having plants in these countries. This raises the price of cars (in some cases significantly) but ensures the industry remains in the US.
Taken to its extreme, this results in a kind of autarky - the idea that all the needs of a country should be met in the country. Understood as a universal principle, other countries should symmetrically not want American products because they're produced by foreigners and don't help their own population. The synthesis is not that different from America First - we should oppose buying from foreigners but everyone else should buy from us. This is the reason that we've had trade wars and wild tariffs that have increased costs for the working classes especially.
I think instead of focusing on the problem of foreigners benefitting instead of Americans we should focus on workforce development such that people are able to provide higher skilled, higher value labor, along with systems that make upskilling in areas where the US has comparative advantage easier for working class people, such as healthcare and education. Addressing problems that significantly damage people's lives (as well as capacity to be productive) such as drug addiction need to be handled more seriously.
Vesploogie | 10 days ago
https://archive.md/stCV5
manolosandmartinis44 | 10 days ago
Is Zeeland pronounced Zay-lant (as we do in Dutch) or Zeeland -- like New Zealand?
> Even Hispanics who are citizens say they now carry their passports out of fear they could be nabbed.
Even I, a non-Hispanic, Dutchman -- albeit one of dodgy extract (Arab) -- have been carrying my passport on my person since September 11. And, it's come in handy twice since then.
deadfulscream | 10 days ago
I saw this first hand.
In Windsor, Ontario, Canada, a lot of the manufacturing packed up and moved there from Detroit, Mi when the Canadian dollar dropped to like 50¢ on the dollar. For various manufacturing industries related to auto makers, especially plastic injection mold companies.
Then from there, a lot of the business were told that if they wanted to do business in China, they would have to send X percentage of work over to China and train their workers.
I knew a few guys that went to China for 6 months to train people on how to do the job.
johannthegoatman | 10 days ago
Most of the biggest and most profitable companies in the world are American. That's who you're competing with for labor. It may be that the terms the commenter is offering are not attractive enough for skilled and intelligent American workers, they can find better jobs elsewhere. Why work long hard hours for low pay if you can get a decent, or even fantastic, office or management job?
Javbw | 10 days ago
I think one of the best examples of what is going on is Apple.
Apple used to build all the macs in the US or Ireland, and the pool of parts were all made in the US.
As manufacturing shifted slowly through the 90s to the commodity PC parts in asia, the people who made money were either the commodity kings (Dell), the OS/software makers in the US (Microsoft), or the Corporate backend software people (Oracle, SAP, etc). Apple moved their manufacturing to China, and slowly brought their engineering talent up, and took advantage of their moulding expertise (if you want plastic injection molds, the Chinese are the most skilled at making them; the Made-in-Japan parts are now using Chinese-made dies in the factories nowadays). Apple stood up their precision manufacturing, but kept the OS and software in the US. All the manufacturing is gone. The jobs are for highly educated software engineers.
A furniture maker, a water heater core manufacturer, or a light bulb production shop is all about engineering processes which can be learned or copied. But Apple - especially apple - grew their business off of harnessing the cheaper yet now competent production of China and the lock-in of their walled garden of iOS, without losing their lunch to some knock-off phone (yet).
Traditionally, there are all kinds of unskilled and skilled factory jobs, and nowadays the only place those seem to live on is where regulations make it infeasible to move them or are for local food production, or in support of more skilled industries.
But those jobs at "america's largest companies" are no longer remotely connected to manufacturing. Being a software dev or a very good welder or IT specialist is not unskilled labor - and the only Labor Amazon is interested in is picking orders while rollerskating and pissing into a bottle at the same time - also not a great option.
At every level, working-class labor is being squeezed - look at the 60 Minutes segment on Trucking being squeezed by overseas operations running fly-by-night freight companies, using shady management to escape regulations, make roads more dangerous, and shaft drivers out of pay. At every level, the working class is getting destroyed because their hands are seemingly not worth the cost to train, their knowledge or skills not worth retaining because the contract factory now has them - why buy build a barn and hire farmhands when you can easily buy the bottle of milk at the shop across the street? And you don't need a manager if there are no employees to manage.
Until there is some kind of equilibrium reached (through attrition, death, or different economic practices, as illustrated in the article), "just go work for a Major US company" means you will be a floor polisher working for whatever contract-company they hire to clean the data centers.