Speaking as someone with almost 24 years of sobriety, I understand that alcoholism is a spectrum like any other addiction and that some people may be able to go back and drink "normally". I choose not to try drinking again. My opinion is that once I kicked that habit, why would I risk falling back into my old addiction? Maybe I could drink responsibly, but why take the chance that I can't? I'm perfectly happy being sober and I wasn't happier when I was drinking. To me, that's a no brainer.
I share your opinion. I’ve been sober 30 years, and I wouldn’t dream of drinking again. Besides not wanting to take the chance, honestly I don’t miss it.
And I think that trying to negotiate whether you can drink normally is probably a sign that you don’t have a healthy relationship with alcohol. Real normies hardly drink at all, and do crazy things like leave half-full glasses on the table. I remember reading somewhere that a hard core of something like 10% of drinkers is responsible for something like 90% of alcohol sales.
Also, I shudder to think of what a hangover would be like at my age.
Congratulations! I feel the same. Edit. My wife is a normie and she is VERY respectful of my sobriety. She will always ask if I'm ok with her having a glass of wine at dinner. If I am not, she doesn't drink. She had two alcoholic husbands and only one of them got sober (me). We wouldn't be together if I hadn't quit.
Alcohol sales are a pretty clean representation of the Pareto Principal (i.e. the 80/20 rule) where rather than a bell curve of consumption you have a hockeystick where a large majority of consumption comes from a small minority of the heaviest users.
It applies to some innocuous things like certain food brands or fashion/luxury brands, but it also shows up in some odious places like gambling revenues, tobacco sales, and the aforementioned alcohol consumption. I would go so far as to say that these companies are well aware of this and that the bulk of their profits are derived from a reliably addicted customer base (or to put it more generously, customers that are exceeding the safe use of their products). This has been well known for tobacco companies forever, but it's far broader than that.
Congratulations.I have been sober for 10 months and agree it's not for me. I was drinking so constantly for a decade it's hard to tell what choices were truly mine.. I'm not saying my life is perfect, but it's better, and good or bad, I feel like I have more control.
The problem I have with AA is suggesting one path is true or any better than others.. I know someone who was drinking so heavily it cost him his house and marriage.. he drinks 8-10NAs a dat but hasn't had a drink in 2 years..works for him.. idk, its complicated for us all..stay strong everyone.
Congratulations! I always cheer anyone who has the least amount of sobriety. AA works for many who are in recovery. But far from all. I would say use whatever approach works. Some people are helped by the concept of a "higher power" helping them achieve sobriety (or control, if that's their goal). I got started in AA but it's been at least 10 years since I attended a meeting.
If the goal is abstinence, IMO so much the better. That way there's less chance of relapse. If it's to drink responsibly, IMO that's the harder path because you're still on that slippery slope. But that's only my opinion. I am not an addiction or mental health specialist.
The DECADES that I let active alcoholism seep into my life is not something I'd like to relive. As much fun as I did have with alcohol - before it went into ruining my life territory - is nowhere near worth the destruction alcohol later played. That's a fire that I don't personally need to ever stoke again.
Folks who struggled with their drinking enough to have to quit by and large aren’t capable of moderation. otherwise they would have already been moderating and it wouldn’t have been an issue in the first place. Articles like this do a lot of damage to folks encouraging folks who have already conquered their addiction to test the waters again. Of course you’ll find your one off exception, but it’s an extremely small contingent
I mean, at its root probably some of the question is, how much can do you with harm reduction. For someone like you who can succeeded in going full sober, yeah probably better to not try it. But for someone who fell off the wagon, maybe there are ways to reduce the harm they cause that they can actually achieve even if it doesn't work fully.
I've made the same choice. What a huge risk it would be to try and find out which kind of alcoholic I am! I've already done the hard work of quitting, it's easy now, and I sure af don't wanna have to do it all over again!
Yeah I think once you reach the point of problem drinking, it’ll always be a problem. I know if I went back to drinking, I’d go right back into binge drinking almost immediately. It’s very common for people to fall right back into it. It took so long for me to stop drinking this time. I don’t think I could do it again.
An issue that some researchers have taken with the old advice is that it sort of creates a weird pressure in the mind of some recovering alcoholics or ex-alcoholics, and this pressure - for many people in that category - increases the likelihood of catastrophic relapses. I.e. a person who otherwise might well be able to handle one portion on occasion suddenly is convinced that the single portion must lead to a drinking binge, and when they succumb to the temptation of a single drink, they have convinced themselves that it's all fucked up now, time for the binge.
Experiences in research seem to hint that reducing that idea significantly reduces the risk for catastrophic relapses.
I try not to judge anyone who relapses. IMO it only resets the counter, it doesn't mean you "failed" or lost the game. But I can see how someone could feel that way. One drink in 5 years is still a lot of sobriety. I guess it depends how you define 'sobriety' vs 'temperance'. IMO sobriety = abstinence and that has worked for me.
Again, I choose to stay abstinent and avoid alcohol. Other people's mileage may vary. Research has shown that no amount of alcohol is healthy and that's good enough reason for me to stick with my decision.
IIRC that's called California sober. I am concerned only with my sobriety. You do you. I simply stated my opinion as a recovering alcoholic. My advice is if you're sober, stay sober. But that's just my advice. Take it with as large a block of salt as you deem necessary.
I mean there's a lot of people who would be described as an alcoholic who quit on their own because they just cut back. A lot of them do resume social drinking later and in moderation.
Lots of addictions are the symptom of a problem and not the cause of the problem. Address the problem and the destructive substance (or whatever it is) losses a lot of its power over you.
This can absolutely be true. But how do you actually know if you’ve addressed the problem? It’s a pretty common thing to hear an alcoholic say, “I don’t think I actually had a drinking problem, I was just [insert genuine mental health problem here] and now that I’ve done the work I think I can drink socially again,” and then two months later they’re driving their life off the rails. How do you distinguish between “I’ve addressed the problem” and “I’ve convinced myself I’ve addressed the problem”?
I guess I just wonder about the cost benefit analysis here. I don’t want to minimize how socially crippling it can be not to drink, but like…if eating pizza had even a small chance of turning me into a raging lunatic/asshole who endangers the lives of my loved ones, I don’t know if I would put a lot of effort into finding a way to eat pizza again.
As someone who’s been sober a very long time the ROI on ever trying to drink again just seems fucking terrible to me. Like maybe I get mild enjoyment, maybe I annihilate my life and end up in a padded cell if im lucky.
One of them is not using substances of any kind to solve emotional pains. When you stop doing that, its very easy to drink socially once a fortnight.
Trauma in early life is what conditions a lot of people to turn to substances to mitigate emotional pains, and once thats resolved to a significant degree, one simply feels differently towards substances.
Its possible to go from being an omniverous addict to a take it our leave it personality, speaking from experience.
I’m really glad that’s worked out for you (or whichever person in your life was struggling with these things). I’m sorry if I made it sound like I don’t believe that’s possible - I definitely do, and I find some of the statements we make about alcoholics and alcoholism to be pretty hyperbolic.
It’s funny because intellectually I would probably really want my husband to be able to drink socially again. I know being fully sober and vigilant all the time can be pretty isolating. But I also can’t image watching him drink a beer and not being filled with absolute dread. I hope I’ll be able to get past that if we’re ever at that point.
I mean you’re both right. The risk is fairly high if someone had a big issue with it and when they stop they’re mostly back to being their functional lovable selves. Some people get out of control, use it as a major coping mechanism, solve the issue and no longer have an issue. Is the risk worth the reward? Also the older you get maybe the less you desire to absolutely blitz yourself with booze? I’ve heard some people say simply finding purpose, responsibility, and having people they love that depend on them is enough to fix their relationship with themselves and booze. But once again, it’s like is that risk worth it to reintroduce it?
This is true but its probably still not worth it to drink again. I legitimately feel like im past the point of needing to drink and occasionally I will have a beer or two but I always regret it
Again as tbe previous person said a million different things can happen and if the underlying issue that brought them to substance use isn't addressed they aren't thinking about worth ect at that moment.
It’s because I think they’re another person just scrolling through their phone, firing off comments, feeling smart because they read a headline somewhere once.
What if the problem returns? What if you get a new problem? Then there's a known coping mechanism and you crave for it. While on active addiction one does not have power to stop. That's why it needs to be an identity. To protect oneself and not fall into the same pattern again.
I think addictions for a lot of people are simply problems when there are problems. A lot of people who have addiction but find stability in life can tend to control it much better. Like you said though, best choice is probably avoid it altogether, never know when problems might arise.
But that's exactly the problem. You're talking about people who *did* beat the addiction. Not everyone can, or wants to. Yet there is a lot of harm to be avoided by just learning to reduce one's consumption to reasonable levels. There's a lot of room between 100% sober forever and death from alcoholism.
It's called dry drunks. People who get sober but are still a train wreck because they were self medicating instead of working on the underlying things that made them drink in the first place
A dry drunk is not synonymous with what the commenter said. Someone can have “dealt with their underlying issues” but still not be able to drink responsibly.
“Dry drunk” is kind of a gross term when not used properly. And I don’t think you’re using it properly here, which is (i think) why you’re downvoted.
I respect you bringing this up and standing by your position.
Having dealt with alcoholics and drug addicts long-term, it is clear that the drug itself alters your entire mind-body state, to such a degree that even when you are not drunk, after even years of being sober, it still has altered your personality.
Part of the illusion is that without the alcohol or drug, people reach a normal baseline. This is actually not how drug addiction or alcoholism works.
It doesn't mean people are irredeemable, but it changes you for life.
This is a very hard thing for people to process or deal with, especially when we have loved ones suffering from addiction, or suffering ourselves.
The ideas, concepts, interpretations, and paranoias and more that are instigated by drug use don't go away when you are off it. They mostly get integrated into a philosophical worldview you carry with you afterwards.
The physical changes are permanent. The chemical alterations are permanent. Even if you can get to some more normalized "baseline".
Which means there is varying levels of severity and change.
I’ve never liked this statement. Like most things it’s a spectrum. For people with extremely severe alcoholism this is definitely true, but for a lot of people struggling with their alcohol use it’s often more of a symptom of underlying problems and/or depression. Moderate use is manageable for a large portion of that population
Yeah the all or nothing mentality really hurts the moderate abusers honestly.
Like they have a single drink and now because they’ve had one and they’ve “ruined their sobriety” they might as well just have 10 even though they are capable of stopping and resetting.
It's the phrasing pushed by AA that copies the religion. Once a sinner always a sinner so you need Jesus, AA meetings, and our dogma to fill that void in your soul...
These systems are built around the idea that people can't change and just need a different coping mechanism. What's changed is that modern approaches to mental health actually seek to have people improve themselves.
In what way? The first step is believing you are powerless to your addictions. The second is submitting to a higher power. It’s all “out of your hands” man. Put your faith in God.
The part I take issue with is that it might imply that there's no "bettering themselves" work.
There's many ways to go over the steps. Some of them are very specific and they provide structure to people that just don't have it, nor has the tools to acquire it on their own. Another aspect is that people will call you on your bullshit. Step 4 is all about being honest with yourself and write a moral inventory of your life. Both good and bad, and believe me, is VERY thorough. Later steps deal with making amends with yourself and others and the last are about keeping oneself accountable. There's the aspect of community and service as well. In general what one excersice there is honesty, humbleness and empathy.
The spirituality has changed somewhat and now they say "god as you define god" regardless of faith. And it can be anything you decide. Here depending on the group and even the person, that definition can be more or less dogmatic.
Edit: To summarise, it is a framework that gives you spirituality, structure, a community, vocabulary to describe the affliction, encourages you to ask and receive help, humbleness, self consciousness and honesty.
It's not for everyone, not every group it's going to work for everyone either, but reducing it to dogma is just, as I said, ignorant.
I’m glad the program worked for you (or perhaps someone you know) but I do feel by and large these things can be achieved without any kind of admission of“powerlessness” or the kind of addictive nature of pressuring people into lifelong adherence to the program. I mentioned in another comment, but SMART has been shown to be equally effective, for example.
I don’t think that’s for everyone either. A lot of the folks you are probably alluding to with no structure in their lives may not fit in with the college-educated, higher-income crowd that frequents SMART programs. I certainly had my struggles integrating with that crowd, without having been in many desperate situations that might make me relate even less to them lol.
But still I think the SMART approach is more promising, for more people. Really, group camaraderie and accountability, as you said, and as I said in my other comment, is incredibly important, which has always made me wonder if a more relaxed social club approach with basic accountability features would function just as well as both.
Absolutely can’t believe AA is court-mandated in many states still. Secular, therapy-integrated approaches like SMART are proven to be nearly identically effective, without requiring lifelong participation (worship).
More strikingly, the absolute most important part of both programs has been shown to be the comradery and community aspects. So what most alcoholics really seem to need is just a group of supportive people who are also going through it, and show up for each other and hold each other accountable.
I dunno, if someone is just taking a break for a bit so they can go back and drink moderately again, in what situation would they be on the receiving end of the attitude you're describing?
I agree. A lot of people can moderate their heavy drinking by changing their lifestyle. I think a lot of people struggle to quit drinking because all they try to do is quit drinking... And they still live the same empty life where they have no passions or hobbies, but just without alcohol.
That’s fair, but I don’t really think of those people as alcoholics. Just problem drinkers. Even the AA big book talks about the difference between heavy drinkers and alcoholics. But I guess it all depends on a persons definition
That isn’t a scientific or clinical distinction though. If drinking is causing problems in someone’s life, it’s alcohol use disorder. What you’re describing is a difference in severity.
In the article, they discuss the differences in mild/moderate and severe AUD. The mild/moderate vs. severe AUD distinction is exactly what /u/bestdayever1234 is talking about.
This article is a joke. One of its few pieces of evidence is a study that found "nonabstinent respondents reported higher confidence that they can control their intake when compare to abstinent respondents" No shit.
Then they pull a study that did a single point in time survey of alcoholics and found that nonabstinence respondents reported similar health indicators with slightly higher chances of psychological distress when compared to abstinence. They collected responses one time. No follow-up.Tell me you've never dealt with an addict without telling me. They said they were good, I'm sure it's fine.
Most importantly, it concludes by saying research show abstinence is the best treatment. This is pop science click farming slop.
I’ve been sober for a little over a year and a half now. A funny quote that resonated with me about my “alcoholic” status was, “I don’t have a drinking problem, but I can pick one up really quick.”
Technically, I don’t drink. But the swiftness with which alcohol would become my full time obsession again is what makes me an alcoholic. That neurological pathway to a dopamine hit is like abandoned highway that nature will never reclaim.
After decades of drinking heavily I got sober 8 years ago. I still dream about drinking.
In fact I just woke up from a dream where I had a beer for breakfast and now this is the first post I read. It's like a sign from above or something lol
I was an almost fifth a day alcoholic for about a year. I barely drink anymore, I can have one and stop but typically I just don't even want to drink. I'm not an alcoholic anymore but I most definitely was in the past, I've never agreed with the phrase.
Yes! Honestly the label of being a alcoholic and one forever make me want to stop less. I can't imagine going to AA. Shame and sky Daddies (h. powers) don't work for me. The Satanic Temple's method is way more my style. 4 week break for my liver, cool! Two years off for meds cool. Never again because it now bites me, a valid reason. Cookie cutters are for cookies
I support the use of AA as an option for people. More options should be publicized.
It’s all made up by AA which is closer to a religion than it is to medicine. Of course, it does help a lot of people so I wouldn’t disqualify them but what they preach isn’t always medically accurate. Some beliefs they have I’d argue could be counterproductive even.
AA is very fear-based. A lot of what they preach is very reminiscent of conservative Christian churches who preach penal substitutionary atonement theology. Very black-and-white
I’m happy we could make a connection over this post! It’s so brave of you to recognize the feelings and be real with yourself! I’m a little behind you and just had my 4 years recently. We got this! Keep trucking!!! 🚛🚛
Exactly! I’m not going to risk my entire life over the slight possibility that I can drink like a normal person. 🤣🤣🤣
Stoked for people that can though. I’m not going to go out and do the research though.
Binge drinking is culturally normalized here in the US, and just because someone drinks heavily for a while doesn’t make them an addict. Those people likely reduced their drinking over time naturally, the people I’m talking about didn’t until their lives became unmanageable. We aren’t talking about the same people, and the fact that you didn’t already know that shows me you are just chiming in to be chiming in.
>Binge drinking is culturally normalized here in the US
In Europe too, or at least it was, seeing how late gen Z and gen alpha have all but stopped drinking.
>and just because someone drinks heavily for a while doesn’t make them an addict
It quite literally does, as the definitions of alcoholism are intentionally strict and kicking in early, easily including most college frats.
>We aren’t talking about the same people
Those definitions are intentionally strict and intentionally binary, designed to shake people awake, which has some merits
But then you cannot have it both ways, if the definitions are so broad, then you cannot also say that it is lifelong and unrecoverable, since that is just millionfold disproven by reality
I just enjoy a buzz too much. Whatever gets me buzzed I wanted to be more buzzed. Crazy thing is I feel fine when I am not buzzed but when I get buzzed I kinda feel worse and get more and more buzzed. The shit doesn’t make sense so I just stay sober.
lol well don’t get buzzed! Being sober can absolutely suck but if the alternative is complete degeneracy then it’s not worth it. Also generally speaking even if you don’t end up on benders or doing terrible shit, it’s hard to function properly with a hangover. Alcohol is terrible for you even if you can handle it. It’s fun but one night of partying while fun comes with consequences.
I had a brush with alcoholism back when craft beers emerged. One regular Tuesday I sat at work and longed to go home and have a beer. Luckily my mind catched it and I stayed off for half a year after which I went back to normal drinking but always questioning every drink I have
37 years California sober and I had a fancy-hotel sized G&T and a couple of flutes of champagne at midnight NYE. This was because I was traveling overseas and hadn’t gotten high in over a week.
Caught a slight buzz on the booze.
Haven’t been tempted since I got home. California sober.
This is just PR bullshit. Maybe there is some validity for alcoholics but this is purely to combat the story of his drunken rampage against his family on their jet. Devour the rich, overthrow corporations, refuse the untruths of social media.
Umm... this article isn't about "him", whoever you are talking about. Brad Pitt? Are you under some delusion that this article is about him just because the opening uses him as an example?
Urban_FinnAm | 8 hours ago
Speaking as someone with almost 24 years of sobriety, I understand that alcoholism is a spectrum like any other addiction and that some people may be able to go back and drink "normally". I choose not to try drinking again. My opinion is that once I kicked that habit, why would I risk falling back into my old addiction? Maybe I could drink responsibly, but why take the chance that I can't? I'm perfectly happy being sober and I wasn't happier when I was drinking. To me, that's a no brainer.
But, that's just like my opinion, man...
blivet | 7 hours ago
I share your opinion. I’ve been sober 30 years, and I wouldn’t dream of drinking again. Besides not wanting to take the chance, honestly I don’t miss it.
And I think that trying to negotiate whether you can drink normally is probably a sign that you don’t have a healthy relationship with alcohol. Real normies hardly drink at all, and do crazy things like leave half-full glasses on the table. I remember reading somewhere that a hard core of something like 10% of drinkers is responsible for something like 90% of alcohol sales.
Also, I shudder to think of what a hangover would be like at my age.
Urban_FinnAm | 7 hours ago
Congratulations! I feel the same. Edit. My wife is a normie and she is VERY respectful of my sobriety. She will always ask if I'm ok with her having a glass of wine at dinner. If I am not, she doesn't drink. She had two alcoholic husbands and only one of them got sober (me). We wouldn't be together if I hadn't quit.
a17451 | 5 hours ago
Alcohol sales are a pretty clean representation of the Pareto Principal (i.e. the 80/20 rule) where rather than a bell curve of consumption you have a hockeystick where a large majority of consumption comes from a small minority of the heaviest users.
It applies to some innocuous things like certain food brands or fashion/luxury brands, but it also shows up in some odious places like gambling revenues, tobacco sales, and the aforementioned alcohol consumption. I would go so far as to say that these companies are well aware of this and that the bulk of their profits are derived from a reliably addicted customer base (or to put it more generously, customers that are exceeding the safe use of their products). This has been well known for tobacco companies forever, but it's far broader than that.
bbushing3 | 8 hours ago
Congratulations.I have been sober for 10 months and agree it's not for me. I was drinking so constantly for a decade it's hard to tell what choices were truly mine.. I'm not saying my life is perfect, but it's better, and good or bad, I feel like I have more control.
The problem I have with AA is suggesting one path is true or any better than others.. I know someone who was drinking so heavily it cost him his house and marriage.. he drinks 8-10NAs a dat but hasn't had a drink in 2 years..works for him.. idk, its complicated for us all..stay strong everyone.
Urban_FinnAm | 8 hours ago
Congratulations! I always cheer anyone who has the least amount of sobriety. AA works for many who are in recovery. But far from all. I would say use whatever approach works. Some people are helped by the concept of a "higher power" helping them achieve sobriety (or control, if that's their goal). I got started in AA but it's been at least 10 years since I attended a meeting.
If the goal is abstinence, IMO so much the better. That way there's less chance of relapse. If it's to drink responsibly, IMO that's the harder path because you're still on that slippery slope. But that's only my opinion. I am not an addiction or mental health specialist.
yungrii | 6 hours ago
The DECADES that I let active alcoholism seep into my life is not something I'd like to relive. As much fun as I did have with alcohol - before it went into ruining my life territory - is nowhere near worth the destruction alcohol later played. That's a fire that I don't personally need to ever stoke again.
dat_grue | 4 hours ago
Folks who struggled with their drinking enough to have to quit by and large aren’t capable of moderation. otherwise they would have already been moderating and it wouldn’t have been an issue in the first place. Articles like this do a lot of damage to folks encouraging folks who have already conquered their addiction to test the waters again. Of course you’ll find your one off exception, but it’s an extremely small contingent
ReneDeGames | 4 hours ago
I mean, at its root probably some of the question is, how much can do you with harm reduction. For someone like you who can succeeded in going full sober, yeah probably better to not try it. But for someone who fell off the wagon, maybe there are ways to reduce the harm they cause that they can actually achieve even if it doesn't work fully.
electricmeatbag777 | 3 hours ago
I've made the same choice. What a huge risk it would be to try and find out which kind of alcoholic I am! I've already done the hard work of quitting, it's easy now, and I sure af don't wanna have to do it all over again!
Fun_Brother_9333 | 8 hours ago
Yeah I think once you reach the point of problem drinking, it’ll always be a problem. I know if I went back to drinking, I’d go right back into binge drinking almost immediately. It’s very common for people to fall right back into it. It took so long for me to stop drinking this time. I don’t think I could do it again.
TheSquirrelOfLegend | 6 hours ago
Agreed!
hikefishcamp | 5 hours ago
It's also impossible to tell who can or can't do it without relapsing, and also when that person would he ready.
It's not really rocket science why recovery programs don't advise people to start reintroducing alcohol. The risk outweighs the benefit.
miniatureconlangs | 24 minutes ago
An issue that some researchers have taken with the old advice is that it sort of creates a weird pressure in the mind of some recovering alcoholics or ex-alcoholics, and this pressure - for many people in that category - increases the likelihood of catastrophic relapses. I.e. a person who otherwise might well be able to handle one portion on occasion suddenly is convinced that the single portion must lead to a drinking binge, and when they succumb to the temptation of a single drink, they have convinced themselves that it's all fucked up now, time for the binge.
Experiences in research seem to hint that reducing that idea significantly reduces the risk for catastrophic relapses.
Urban_FinnAm | 5 minutes ago
I try not to judge anyone who relapses. IMO it only resets the counter, it doesn't mean you "failed" or lost the game. But I can see how someone could feel that way. One drink in 5 years is still a lot of sobriety. I guess it depends how you define 'sobriety' vs 'temperance'. IMO sobriety = abstinence and that has worked for me.
Again, I choose to stay abstinent and avoid alcohol. Other people's mileage may vary. Research has shown that no amount of alcohol is healthy and that's good enough reason for me to stick with my decision.
Master_K_Genius_Pi | 8 hours ago
Mind if I do a J?
Urban_FinnAm | 8 hours ago
IIRC that's called California sober. I am concerned only with my sobriety. You do you. I simply stated my opinion as a recovering alcoholic. My advice is if you're sober, stay sober. But that's just my advice. Take it with as large a block of salt as you deem necessary.
Significant_Cow4765 | 6 hours ago
*it's also a quote from The Big Lebowski
Urban_FinnAm | 6 hours ago
I only steal from the best...
Significant_Cow4765 | 6 hours ago
I'm referring to "mind if I do a J?"
Urban_FinnAm | 6 hours ago
Excuse me, my bad. All I saw was the quote.
RootinTootinHootin | 10 hours ago
Honestly if you beat an addiction you should probably stay out. It’s so hard to quit why have to do it twice?
frzrbrnd | 9 hours ago
It could be that the problematic use had less to do with the substance itself than other mental health issues that hadn't been dealt with.
super_crabs | 9 hours ago
And social issues.
Bfinnera | 6 hours ago
exactly
SvenTropics | 6 hours ago
I mean there's a lot of people who would be described as an alcoholic who quit on their own because they just cut back. A lot of them do resume social drinking later and in moderation.
MessiTraveler | 7 hours ago
And a sick ex-wife who drove you to it.
Typhoon-class_Romney | 6 hours ago
For me it was the cat. So fucking needy. Meow, meow, meow.
Crazy-Bodybuilder836 | 4 hours ago
Yea I finally managed to kick heroin after my evil cat died.
GreenApocalypse | 2 hours ago
Exactly! It's the caged rat experiment. Everyone here talking about there being no fix have not thought through what this research even talks about.
musicaleffervescence | 9 hours ago
always easier to stay sober than get sober again ✍️✍️
IcyGarage5767 | 9 hours ago
Lots of addictions are the symptom of a problem and not the cause of the problem. Address the problem and the destructive substance (or whatever it is) losses a lot of its power over you.
AnxietyOctopus | 8 hours ago
This can absolutely be true. But how do you actually know if you’ve addressed the problem? It’s a pretty common thing to hear an alcoholic say, “I don’t think I actually had a drinking problem, I was just [insert genuine mental health problem here] and now that I’ve done the work I think I can drink socially again,” and then two months later they’re driving their life off the rails. How do you distinguish between “I’ve addressed the problem” and “I’ve convinced myself I’ve addressed the problem”?
I guess I just wonder about the cost benefit analysis here. I don’t want to minimize how socially crippling it can be not to drink, but like…if eating pizza had even a small chance of turning me into a raging lunatic/asshole who endangers the lives of my loved ones, I don’t know if I would put a lot of effort into finding a way to eat pizza again.
Comfortable-Run-437 | 6 hours ago
As someone who’s been sober a very long time the ROI on ever trying to drink again just seems fucking terrible to me. Like maybe I get mild enjoyment, maybe I annihilate my life and end up in a padded cell if im lucky.
Honest_Ad5029 | 5 hours ago
There are pretty clear signals.
One of them is not using substances of any kind to solve emotional pains. When you stop doing that, its very easy to drink socially once a fortnight.
Trauma in early life is what conditions a lot of people to turn to substances to mitigate emotional pains, and once thats resolved to a significant degree, one simply feels differently towards substances.
Its possible to go from being an omniverous addict to a take it our leave it personality, speaking from experience.
AnxietyOctopus | 5 hours ago
I’m really glad that’s worked out for you (or whichever person in your life was struggling with these things). I’m sorry if I made it sound like I don’t believe that’s possible - I definitely do, and I find some of the statements we make about alcoholics and alcoholism to be pretty hyperbolic.
It’s funny because intellectually I would probably really want my husband to be able to drink socially again. I know being fully sober and vigilant all the time can be pretty isolating. But I also can’t image watching him drink a beer and not being filled with absolute dread. I hope I’ll be able to get past that if we’re ever at that point.
Mysmokingbarrel | 5 hours ago
I mean you’re both right. The risk is fairly high if someone had a big issue with it and when they stop they’re mostly back to being their functional lovable selves. Some people get out of control, use it as a major coping mechanism, solve the issue and no longer have an issue. Is the risk worth the reward? Also the older you get maybe the less you desire to absolutely blitz yourself with booze? I’ve heard some people say simply finding purpose, responsibility, and having people they love that depend on them is enough to fix their relationship with themselves and booze. But once again, it’s like is that risk worth it to reintroduce it?
Whiteboiconvert | 8 hours ago
This is true but its probably still not worth it to drink again. I legitimately feel like im past the point of needing to drink and occasionally I will have a beer or two but I always regret it
ErictheStone | 8 hours ago
Again as tbe previous person said a million different things can happen and if the underlying issue that brought them to substance use isn't addressed they aren't thinking about worth ect at that moment.
MoonOut_StarsInvite | 6 hours ago
What addiction have you recovered from?
Alternative_Sock6999 | 6 hours ago
What has that got to do with their statement?
MoonOut_StarsInvite | 6 hours ago
I think there are a lot of armchair quarterbacks posting here. This is a pretty dangerous game to play. Anyone in recovery can tell you that.
Alternative_Sock6999 | 6 hours ago
I don't disagree. But that didn't answer my question.
MoonOut_StarsInvite | 6 hours ago
It’s because I think they’re another person just scrolling through their phone, firing off comments, feeling smart because they read a headline somewhere once.
duva_ | 2 hours ago
Lived experience is more valuable than theory in this particular topic.
duva_ | 2 hours ago
What if the problem returns? What if you get a new problem? Then there's a known coping mechanism and you crave for it. While on active addiction one does not have power to stop. That's why it needs to be an identity. To protect oneself and not fall into the same pattern again.
karlnite | 8 hours ago
I think addictions for a lot of people are simply problems when there are problems. A lot of people who have addiction but find stability in life can tend to control it much better. Like you said though, best choice is probably avoid it altogether, never know when problems might arise.
NightSpaghetti | an hour ago
But that's exactly the problem. You're talking about people who *did* beat the addiction. Not everyone can, or wants to. Yet there is a lot of harm to be avoided by just learning to reduce one's consumption to reasonable levels. There's a lot of room between 100% sober forever and death from alcoholism.
Abomb | 8 hours ago
It's called dry drunks. People who get sober but are still a train wreck because they were self medicating instead of working on the underlying things that made them drink in the first place
sk1nnyjeans | 8 hours ago
I understand the type of person you’re describing but I don’t understand how dry drunk as a label works here
Abomb | 8 hours ago
OP is saying they should stay out when in reality their addiction night be a symptom of a larger issue instead of actually being an addict.
Not saying you shouldn't be on the side of caution but the substance might not be the underlying problem
Edit: or just downvote me
BillyYumYumTwo-byTwo | 7 hours ago
A dry drunk is not synonymous with what the commenter said. Someone can have “dealt with their underlying issues” but still not be able to drink responsibly.
“Dry drunk” is kind of a gross term when not used properly. And I don’t think you’re using it properly here, which is (i think) why you’re downvoted.
BingleFlip94 | 7 hours ago
It’s also a derogatory term that people in AA use to refer to people who get sober but don’t “work the steps.”
Abomb | 7 hours ago
Idk why you're being downvoted. If i didn't know a lot of people who fit the criteria I wouldn't use it
PoeticInJustUs | 50 minutes ago
I respect you bringing this up and standing by your position.
Having dealt with alcoholics and drug addicts long-term, it is clear that the drug itself alters your entire mind-body state, to such a degree that even when you are not drunk, after even years of being sober, it still has altered your personality.
Part of the illusion is that without the alcohol or drug, people reach a normal baseline. This is actually not how drug addiction or alcoholism works.
It doesn't mean people are irredeemable, but it changes you for life.
This is a very hard thing for people to process or deal with, especially when we have loved ones suffering from addiction, or suffering ourselves.
The ideas, concepts, interpretations, and paranoias and more that are instigated by drug use don't go away when you are off it. They mostly get integrated into a philosophical worldview you carry with you afterwards.
The physical changes are permanent. The chemical alterations are permanent. Even if you can get to some more normalized "baseline".
Which means there is varying levels of severity and change.
It's complex for sure.
Glad_Position3592 | 11 hours ago
I’ve never liked this statement. Like most things it’s a spectrum. For people with extremely severe alcoholism this is definitely true, but for a lot of people struggling with their alcohol use it’s often more of a symptom of underlying problems and/or depression. Moderate use is manageable for a large portion of that population
Zestyclose-Tough7451 | 9 hours ago
Yeah the all or nothing mentality really hurts the moderate abusers honestly.
Like they have a single drink and now because they’ve had one and they’ve “ruined their sobriety” they might as well just have 10 even though they are capable of stopping and resetting.
lunartree | 8 hours ago
It's the phrasing pushed by AA that copies the religion. Once a sinner always a sinner so you need Jesus, AA meetings, and our dogma to fill that void in your soul...
These systems are built around the idea that people can't change and just need a different coping mechanism. What's changed is that modern approaches to mental health actually seek to have people improve themselves.
duva_ | an hour ago
First paragraph is somewhat true. Second one is just plain ignorant
WriteCodeBroh | an hour ago
In what way? The first step is believing you are powerless to your addictions. The second is submitting to a higher power. It’s all “out of your hands” man. Put your faith in God.
duva_ | 55 minutes ago
That is what I said was "somewhat true".
The part I take issue with is that it might imply that there's no "bettering themselves" work.
There's many ways to go over the steps. Some of them are very specific and they provide structure to people that just don't have it, nor has the tools to acquire it on their own. Another aspect is that people will call you on your bullshit. Step 4 is all about being honest with yourself and write a moral inventory of your life. Both good and bad, and believe me, is VERY thorough. Later steps deal with making amends with yourself and others and the last are about keeping oneself accountable. There's the aspect of community and service as well. In general what one excersice there is honesty, humbleness and empathy.
The spirituality has changed somewhat and now they say "god as you define god" regardless of faith. And it can be anything you decide. Here depending on the group and even the person, that definition can be more or less dogmatic.
Edit: To summarise, it is a framework that gives you spirituality, structure, a community, vocabulary to describe the affliction, encourages you to ask and receive help, humbleness, self consciousness and honesty.
It's not for everyone, not every group it's going to work for everyone either, but reducing it to dogma is just, as I said, ignorant.
WriteCodeBroh | 15 minutes ago
I’m glad the program worked for you (or perhaps someone you know) but I do feel by and large these things can be achieved without any kind of admission of“powerlessness” or the kind of addictive nature of pressuring people into lifelong adherence to the program. I mentioned in another comment, but SMART has been shown to be equally effective, for example.
I don’t think that’s for everyone either. A lot of the folks you are probably alluding to with no structure in their lives may not fit in with the college-educated, higher-income crowd that frequents SMART programs. I certainly had my struggles integrating with that crowd, without having been in many desperate situations that might make me relate even less to them lol.
But still I think the SMART approach is more promising, for more people. Really, group camaraderie and accountability, as you said, and as I said in my other comment, is incredibly important, which has always made me wonder if a more relaxed social club approach with basic accountability features would function just as well as both.
WriteCodeBroh | 53 minutes ago
Absolutely can’t believe AA is court-mandated in many states still. Secular, therapy-integrated approaches like SMART are proven to be nearly identically effective, without requiring lifelong participation (worship).
More strikingly, the absolute most important part of both programs has been shown to be the comradery and community aspects. So what most alcoholics really seem to need is just a group of supportive people who are also going through it, and show up for each other and hold each other accountable.
Necessary_Piccolo210 | an hour ago
I dunno, if someone is just taking a break for a bit so they can go back and drink moderately again, in what situation would they be on the receiving end of the attitude you're describing?
44moon | 8 hours ago
I agree. A lot of people can moderate their heavy drinking by changing their lifestyle. I think a lot of people struggle to quit drinking because all they try to do is quit drinking... And they still live the same empty life where they have no passions or hobbies, but just without alcohol.
bestdayever1234 | 9 hours ago
That’s fair, but I don’t really think of those people as alcoholics. Just problem drinkers. Even the AA big book talks about the difference between heavy drinkers and alcoholics. But I guess it all depends on a persons definition
fsmpastafarian | 9 hours ago
That isn’t a scientific or clinical distinction though. If drinking is causing problems in someone’s life, it’s alcohol use disorder. What you’re describing is a difference in severity.
FuckYouNotHappening | 7 hours ago
In the article, they discuss the differences in mild/moderate and severe AUD. The mild/moderate vs. severe AUD distinction is exactly what /u/bestdayever1234 is talking about.
IcyGarage5767 | 9 hours ago
Knowing it to be so obviously untrue and hearing people spout it off as if it is an inherent truth was never not disappointing.
Tiny_TimeMachine | 6 hours ago
This article is a joke. One of its few pieces of evidence is a study that found "nonabstinent respondents reported higher confidence that they can control their intake when compare to abstinent respondents" No shit.
Then they pull a study that did a single point in time survey of alcoholics and found that nonabstinence respondents reported similar health indicators with slightly higher chances of psychological distress when compared to abstinence. They collected responses one time. No follow-up.Tell me you've never dealt with an addict without telling me. They said they were good, I'm sure it's fine.
Most importantly, it concludes by saying research show abstinence is the best treatment. This is pop science click farming slop.
sodangshedonger | 4 hours ago
I’ve been sober for a little over a year and a half now. A funny quote that resonated with me about my “alcoholic” status was, “I don’t have a drinking problem, but I can pick one up really quick.”
Technically, I don’t drink. But the swiftness with which alcohol would become my full time obsession again is what makes me an alcoholic. That neurological pathway to a dopamine hit is like abandoned highway that nature will never reclaim.
TwoFlower68 | 2 hours ago
After decades of drinking heavily I got sober 8 years ago. I still dream about drinking.
In fact I just woke up from a dream where I had a beer for breakfast and now this is the first post I read. It's like a sign from above or something lol
ihadquestions | an hour ago
No no. It's not.
AmbitionVegetable666 | an hour ago
A sign to keep sober friend
TwoFlower68 | 49 minutes ago
For sure. Not falling for that again
nyaphometnikko | 7 hours ago
I was an almost fifth a day alcoholic for about a year. I barely drink anymore, I can have one and stop but typically I just don't even want to drink. I'm not an alcoholic anymore but I most definitely was in the past, I've never agreed with the phrase.
iritchie001 | 6 hours ago
Yes! Honestly the label of being a alcoholic and one forever make me want to stop less. I can't imagine going to AA. Shame and sky Daddies (h. powers) don't work for me. The Satanic Temple's method is way more my style. 4 week break for my liver, cool! Two years off for meds cool. Never again because it now bites me, a valid reason. Cookie cutters are for cookies
I support the use of AA as an option for people. More options should be publicized.
erictho | 4 hours ago
my partner had a friend whose dad never ever drank when they were kids.
when they grew up and left home he decided he would pick up drinking again now that he wasnt raising kids. he was dead within the year.
its not exactly a one off story either.
TheShortTimer | 8 hours ago
It’s all made up by AA which is closer to a religion than it is to medicine. Of course, it does help a lot of people so I wouldn’t disqualify them but what they preach isn’t always medically accurate. Some beliefs they have I’d argue could be counterproductive even.
nodarknesswillendure | 3 hours ago
AA is very fear-based. A lot of what they preach is very reminiscent of conservative Christian churches who preach penal substitutionary atonement theology. Very black-and-white
MoonOut_StarsInvite | 6 hours ago
Maybe there’s a small subset of people who can get back in the game.
But if you’re someone reading this comment, please don’t fool yourself. This just doesn’t work. You aren’t that one in a thousand people.
Stay the course 🙌💗
Weekly_Quit_82 | 4 hours ago
5 years into my recovery and the cravings have been insane lately. Absolutely needed to see your comment. Thank you. 😭❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
MoonOut_StarsInvite | an hour ago
I’m happy we could make a connection over this post! It’s so brave of you to recognize the feelings and be real with yourself! I’m a little behind you and just had my 4 years recently. We got this! Keep trucking!!! 🚛🚛
UntowardHatter | 2 hours ago
No point in taking risks with it.
MoonOut_StarsInvite | an hour ago
That’s the truth. You don’t go through hell and back just to risk throwing it all away on a maybe.
smc642 | 53 minutes ago
Exactly! I’m not going to risk my entire life over the slight possibility that I can drink like a normal person. 🤣🤣🤣
Stoked for people that can though. I’m not going to go out and do the research though.
tomvorlostriddle | 2 hours ago
>Maybe there’s a small subset of people who can get back in the game.
There are millions who had problematic drinking habits in their college years and then started drinking only a glass or two a week once they grew up
MoonOut_StarsInvite | an hour ago
Binge drinking is culturally normalized here in the US, and just because someone drinks heavily for a while doesn’t make them an addict. Those people likely reduced their drinking over time naturally, the people I’m talking about didn’t until their lives became unmanageable. We aren’t talking about the same people, and the fact that you didn’t already know that shows me you are just chiming in to be chiming in.
tomvorlostriddle | an hour ago
>Binge drinking is culturally normalized here in the US
In Europe too, or at least it was, seeing how late gen Z and gen alpha have all but stopped drinking.
>and just because someone drinks heavily for a while doesn’t make them an addict
It quite literally does, as the definitions of alcoholism are intentionally strict and kicking in early, easily including most college frats.
>We aren’t talking about the same people
Those definitions are intentionally strict and intentionally binary, designed to shake people awake, which has some merits
But then you cannot have it both ways, if the definitions are so broad, then you cannot also say that it is lifelong and unrecoverable, since that is just millionfold disproven by reality
MoonOut_StarsInvite | an hour ago
Tell me about your own addiction
tomvorlostriddle | an hour ago
See how you instantly flip flopped from "This proves you aren't alcoholic" to "This proves you are alcoholic"?
At least commit to one ad hominem and stay with it
MoonOut_StarsInvite | an hour ago
I was curious if you were speaking from experience. Seems not.
Phenex_Talon | 8 hours ago
The cult of AA has poisoned the well on alcohol addiction
Significant_Cow4765 | 6 hours ago
I'm glad they've modified a bit at least. Decades ago, if you "slipped" you weren't really trying and were a liar. And gtfo.
chrisschini | 7 hours ago
What a stupid thing to say.
tamesage | 4 hours ago
Maybe this article is paid for by big alcohol.
New-Inflation-7707 | 3 hours ago
Maybe I can just have one . I was probably just having a bad year .
Ramesses901 | 7 hours ago
Once you’ve rang the bell, you’ve rung the bell ya dig?
FoolOnDaHill365 | 6 hours ago
I just enjoy a buzz too much. Whatever gets me buzzed I wanted to be more buzzed. Crazy thing is I feel fine when I am not buzzed but when I get buzzed I kinda feel worse and get more and more buzzed. The shit doesn’t make sense so I just stay sober.
Mysmokingbarrel | 4 hours ago
lol well don’t get buzzed! Being sober can absolutely suck but if the alternative is complete degeneracy then it’s not worth it. Also generally speaking even if you don’t end up on benders or doing terrible shit, it’s hard to function properly with a hangover. Alcohol is terrible for you even if you can handle it. It’s fun but one night of partying while fun comes with consequences.
MrBeer9999 | an hour ago
If I could drink moderately, I wouldn't have had to quit in the first place.
Humble_Marketing_212 | 9 hours ago
Dangerous for a lot of folks to read this. Very very slippery slope.
arab3lla | 8 hours ago
Got me wanting to head upstairs for my first glass of wine in 5+ years. I'm not gonna, but reading this definitely made me want to
fightingtobewarm | 7 hours ago
I don’t think the medical community understands the difference between a ‘hard drinker’ and an ‘alcoholic’
Broad-Back1659 | 4 hours ago
Oh but the scientific theory is I can go back to drinking. Ok. Well I don't believe everything I read.
Firebreathingwhore | 3 hours ago
I had a brush with alcoholism back when craft beers emerged. One regular Tuesday I sat at work and longed to go home and have a beer. Luckily my mind catched it and I stayed off for half a year after which I went back to normal drinking but always questioning every drink I have
sjessbgo | 2 hours ago
absolutely not the deadline i would forward to my bff, that a recovered alcoholic. seems like the type of mentality that would make her relapse 😕
timesuck47 | an hour ago
37 years California sober and I had a fancy-hotel sized G&T and a couple of flutes of champagne at midnight NYE. This was because I was traveling overseas and hadn’t gotten high in over a week.
Caught a slight buzz on the booze.
Haven’t been tempted since I got home. California sober.
Timformation | 5 minutes ago
No thanks, Big Alcohol. You took my money for a long time but I quit and you’re not getting it again.
kaiser_kraut | 5 hours ago
Incredibly dangerous advice.
Soupronous | 5 hours ago
Advice =/ Medical Research
NickPetey | 5 hours ago
I don't think it's advice, per se. Just what the science may show
MarioMilieu | 3 hours ago
‘New study suggest rats can do basic algebra’
“That’s horrible advice!”
Chemical_Support4748 | 7 hours ago
You should stop drinking
Ronkyfiddlo | 5 hours ago
Uh NO.
ConcertinaTerpsichor | 9 hours ago
I hate the word “copium” but this is an excellent example.
Expensive_Ring_4546 | 9 hours ago
Dont be that supportive person who stays with an alcoholic for too long thinking they will change.
They wont.
IcyGarage5767 | 9 hours ago
I’ve known lots of alcoholics to change. Maybe you were the problem?
the-nub | 8 hours ago
Pretty big leap you made there. You can disagree with someone's position without insulting them.
Expensive_Ring_4546 | 8 hours ago
Its ok, i think i must have hit a raw nerve
Shouldofkilledme | 10 hours ago
This is just PR bullshit. Maybe there is some validity for alcoholics but this is purely to combat the story of his drunken rampage against his family on their jet. Devour the rich, overthrow corporations, refuse the untruths of social media.
[OP] cos | 10 hours ago
Umm... this article isn't about "him", whoever you are talking about. Brad Pitt? Are you under some delusion that this article is about him just because the opening uses him as an example?