To add to this, some organizations just prefer using one provider for their cloud service. So if they build on Azure/Google Cloud/AWS, then everything needs to be on there. Cloudflare probably wants to offer the same here, where everything can be built on Cloudflare.
Not sure where the trust claim lands, but the first two are now exceedingly trivial with code agents. A little more work perhaps, but not hard at all. I’ve done this myself (not with those providers) with several search platforms.
CloudFlare AI Gateway was quite convenient for me - I wanted to give my zeroclaw instance a limited budget to services like Image generation/Replicate/Fal.ai, which would mean for each service I'd have to run my own proxy that stores the keys and cuts off the real calls if we go over the limits. Easy to do but still extra thing to build and maintain.
Instead I put my API keys to cloudflare, set limits, and gave the agent the CloudFlare token, and in minutes it could contact tens of services.
edit: not to mention instead of loading balance to each service I could just keep balance on cloudflare that covers them all
Same way people trust Microsoft: "We already use them, and using them for this additional service exposes no data they wouldn't already have access to from all the other services we buy from them"
I trust Cloudflare more than I trust some other players in the arena. They have a decent track record of being neutral infrastructure provider. They seem technically strong, deploying Rust widely and caring about performance in a way that most firms do not. They're likely covertly funded by intelligence services so they don't have economic incentives to enshitify their offerings or deliberately screw me over.
Put it this way: I'd rather Cloudflare owns the Internet than Google, Meta, Amazon or Alibaba.
Citation? The only case I'm aware of is when they removed DDoS protection for the Daily Stormer[0], and tbqh that made me feel more positively toward them. Yes, it was an impulsive, emotionally-motivated choice but that was relatable to me.
Reddit comments report more such incidents, with Cloudflare demanding an upgrade to Enterprise. This has also come up for other sites, such as gambling sites.
Also, Cloudflare implicitly screws over everyone by leaking data to the NSA.
Huh. When you don't use a man-in-the-middle service, you don't have this problem. When you host on a cloud vendor, you don't have this problem because you control the HTTPS certificate and don't leak it to the MITM. The assumption as such seems silly to me.
Your DNS lookups and IPs in use provide a lot of info. It's not always the data inside an encryption layer that is the most important.
That said, these are US companies subject to FISA court orders and NSLs or National Security Letters. If they want your data, they can just pull it from memory in real time or pull it directly from the hypervisor and dump it wherever they're instructed to. Any idea that your data is protected because you're not even using a provider WAF or doing TLS termination for load balancing is a fantasy.
I control which DNS server I use. It is not relevant to the matter at hand.
> If they want your data, they can just pull it from memory in real time or pull it directly from the hypervisor and dump it wherever they're instructed to.
You're confusing bulk data collection with highly selective court-ordered data collection. The two are not alike. Attempting to equate them is a dumb attempt at deception on your part. There is no obligation for a firm to share bulk web data with the NSA.
It wasn't an impulsive decision. They kept the Daily Stormer's account active up until Andrew Anglin said CF kept offering him their services because they quietly agreed with him.
> Our terms of service reserve the right for us to terminate users of our network at our sole discretion. The tipping point for us making this decision was that the team behind Daily Stormer made the claim that we were secretly supporters of their ideology.
> Our team has been thorough and have had thoughtful discussions for years about what the right policy was on censoring. Like a lot of people, we’ve felt angry at these hateful people for a long time but we have followed the law and remained content neutral as a network. We could not remain neutral after these claims of secret support by Cloudflare.
Yes, you are quoting from the exact same blog I linked, but you're wrong. It was an impulsive decision[0]
Per Matthew Prince:
"This was my decision. Our terms of service reserve the right for us to terminate users of our network at our sole discretion. My rationale for making this decision was simple: the people behind the Daily Stormer are assholes and I’d had enough.
Let me be clear: this was an arbitrary decision. It was different than what I’d talked talked with our senior team about yesterday. I woke up this morning in a bad mood and decided to kick them off the Internet. I called our legal team and told them what we were going to do. I called our Trust & Safety team and had them stop the service. It was a decision I could make because I’m the CEO of a major Internet infrastructure company."
This is one of the best, most honest things I've seen a tech CEO write. Contrast this with Zuckerberg's mealy-mouthed weaseling about "policies"[1]. I wish more tech overlords had the honesty to say, "No, we are not a court. We are booting you because we don't like you."
Cloudflare are setting themselves up as the arbiter who will decide which requests are a) human, b) authorized AI bots, c) illicit/banned bots.
Given the number of people on HN who report massive problems from scrapers and other bots, it sounds like if Cloudflare doesn't do this, someone else will need to. I might have thought bandwidth was cheap enough now for it not to matter, but I guess the bots are costing some sites a lot of money.
Cloudflare seems to be very excited to eventually get a 30% cut on pay-to-crawl.
As for the bots, I thought the same thing, but it is indeed a huge problem. They've brought my websites down pretty frequently recently. I tried Cloudflare but visitors complained, and I think you can't win against the bots anyway, so I've resorted to performance improvements and serving every request.
Cloudflare doesn't block bots. It's trivial to use residential proxies and your very obvious bot will only get blocked maybe 5% of the time when using rotating IPs.
- block larger cohorts of traffic, affect many real users
- babysit the rules to get them just right, lose time doing that
In my experience the residential proxies exist but are not that common and many aren't trying as hard as they could. It's really a war of which side wants to spend more attention on the problem.
It isn't bandwidth that causes problems. It is the various types of load that they can add to your servers. Which is why no centralized vendor can decide the proper caching or what bots should be blocked, allowed, rate limited, etc. Those things do not have standard answers - it depends on what your apps do, your audience, their usage patterns, and sometimes the regulatory environment in which you run.
I've been using the web search in OpenRouter, which is similar in that it's a wrapper around other search engine providers. It's really convenient to be able to experiment with new models and new search engines without having to go through corporate hoops to subscribe to a new service.
I think Cloudflare is (for companies already using it) approaching the status of trusted main cloud supplier (which usually would be AWS, GCP, Azure) via which the majority of cloud costs are billed (so you don't have to go through a fresh procurement process).
It means "hi spending approver, I'm going to add $100 to our CF account" instead of "hi accounting+management+security, please initiate the process of evaluating new third party vendor Foo for use in my project, I hope we can get it approved and integrated into SSO sometime next month".
There is nothing wrong with “inserting yourself in the middle of everybody’s business”. That is how you reduce friction between parties and make optimizations that are only possible by being able to manage both sides of the connection. It’s also a really good way to make money.
I think their strategy is: "AI coding means we can build everything. Our infrastructure approach is incredibly quick to build upon, so why not build it all ourselves and then anyone with half a brain will move their stuff to Cloudflare and leave AWS in the dust."
This practice of having the one provider should be eliminated. Companies self-inflict lock-in to large platform providers, prevent their own teams from using better technology options and stifle innovation. It's crazy that even with a pile of SOC/ISO/PCI/HIPAA/NIS certificates, procurement is still a months-long process, it should be much easier to do business.
Replace trusted with convenient. They're glowing pretty hard giving out all that stuff very cheap in exchange for being the middle man on everything. Not that I mind for my trivial use case.
You are conflating a couple of different things here
There actually is such a thing as verified bots on Cloudflare that gets through most blocks (and these services are likely are part of that), but ultimately it just depends on how the website owner has things set up in Cloudflare
I hate to be rude but once again I am begging people to actually read the post. It is mentioned in the second paragraph that they are all verified bots.
Actually it doesn't say they are verified bots but it does say that they follow the verified bots standards. But yes I think we can assume they are verified bots which I already said in my comment so I'm not really sure what the purpose of your reply is?
> There actually is such a thing as verified bots on Cloudflare that gets through most blocks
Verified bot is just a label. What you do with that information is entirely up to you as the operator. It doesn't say anything anything about the service and doesn't provide any guarantees about the traffic.
No it's not just a label because it's a category that gets used in the firewall settings. A lot of sites allow only verified bots and block non-verified ones. So yes as I already mentioned website owners can of course block verified bots but it's much much less common than blocking non-verified ones because most site owners don't want to accidentally deindex their site from Google...
Weird choice by CloudFlare, would been great if they have shared why it was created.
I use CloudFlare developer platform and quite happy with tools, but I didn’t use the gateway API and always used OpenRouter which does support web search.
I can see it useful for those who didn’t do any integrations or like to keep logs at one place, but did customers actually ask for this?
Because it's their release week, so there's multiple new products every day. The overlap of people using HN and Cloudflare is pretty large, so not that surprising.
A related Q: why are their products so popular? I get why CDN/DDOS protection is but what about everything else? I have never ever found a use for stuff like Workers. (Sincerely asking, not dismissing them as useless)
Pages is a very convenient way of deploying static websites/SPAs with a generous free tier. You just need to find the tiny links in their dashboard to avoid accidentally using workers instead (which is supposed to supersede it but is clearly worse for this usecase).
Workers have a nice and easy deployment model (when it's not broken) compared to AWS lambda, so I get why people are tempted. It's one simple file compared to 4 separate pieces of infra. But yes, please, use anything else that doesn't pay for the CloudFlare protection racket. For example there's https://bunny.net/edge-scripting/
The workers paid tier is $5/month and you can do a LOT with that. Once you drink the cloudflare kool-aid regarding workers they let you build very scalable apps while jumping through many fewer hoops than you would on AWS/GCP, at a fraction of the cost.
Workers gives me a free static site, just dropped the .html file there (or connect to git).
CDN, DDoS protection, excellent DNS hosting features, web monitoring, web analytics, advanced web and service filtering and blocking, zerotrust networking / vpn options, a solid API that works great with terraform, tons of other stuff.
Note - you should not be hosting purely static sites with Workers, if you can avoid it, give CF Pages is actually free and unlimited (assuming you don't use "Functions", which are just workers in disguise).
Workers is compute-on-demand and particularly only pay what you use. Especially in the current days, something like Workers is infinitely appealing if you don't want to manage or pay for a dedicated server, assuming the service you want to run can be completely hosted (or a replacement vibe-coded) for the Service Workers API / deployed to CF's platform.
You also don't pay for actual data transfer, so the billing is overall simpler - AWS and GCP have similar per-request compute options, but every part of the platform has extra fees (like per-gb data transfer billing, sometimes you need a VPC to interconnect services, secrets being an extra charge, etc).
I suspect also to do with internal Slack etc. where employees vote on launch posts (a lot of them on HN since long). Not a scam or accusing anyone but this probably propels a lot.
For those developers out there, the best is still Gemini Flash Lite 2.5 believe it or not. It gives you 1000 google searches per day for free. Compare to Flash Lite 3.x which is 5k PER MONTH and then a few pennies PER SEARCH. Nuts. Didn’t realize search was so expensive.
Perhaps realizing all of this, Google hasn’t yet deprecated 2.5, bit limits access to it to “those who have used it before.”
Not joking: They need to figure out how to sell ads for agents first.
Google Search only works as a business because human eyeballs see (and brains choose to click on) ads at rates that justify advertisers’ (massive in aggregate) dollars.
"Google Search" isn't the business you're talking about there even, you're talking about the ads business, separate from Google Search. Search, as Google has implemented it, isn't a "business" at all, that's why they have to subsidize it with money from their ads business in the first place.
If Google instead spun out Google Search into it's independent company, with actual focus on search instead of whatever they're doing now, with an actual business model, it might actually work, granted they get back the old search quality.
Kagi is an example of search engine that manages to also be a business today and not theoretically.
That’s the enterprise agent one, still available for API. Oh and I got it wrong… it’s actually 1500 searches per day free! Gemini Flash 2.5 also has this btw but I prefer Flash Lite to reduce costs. It’s nuts when you compare cost and features to any of the 3.x models. https://ai.google.dev/gemini-api/docs/pricing
So I wish I could use Google for https://veruscite.com/, but the number of Google searches are a hard cap on the account! So yes that is fine for agentic coding, but for an app that relies on web-search is not sufficient.
I am currently using Perplexity fast search and fetch, and I am happy with that. I would try our Ceramic.ai, but I need to be able to fetch the pages as well (I do not want summaries).
(I work at Linkup.) We do both: search returns raw results, no summaries, and there's a separate fetch endpoint that returns the full page as markdown, with optional JS rendering. You should compare us against your Perplexity setup - you might some value in switching
Put in the todo list to check out. If you cut web search costs even further for flash/fast search (similar to Perplexity, which is $1 per 1000 for fast search) would make it more competitive (at least for my app!)
Can Gemini Flash Lite 2.5 be made to return raw search results. Some 'search' providers I looked at returned summaries, or vector relevance matches (of presumably a smaller/stale page set).
1. Google News API now returns only Google links that don't resolve to anything in code.
2. Google Search results are atrocious and only unearth non-authoritative blogspam and aggregator sites.
Tried one query on ceramic.ai (the default provider for cloudflare web search api): "qwen-3.8 flash next and rtx 5090 best inference setup" ... 0 results ... same query on google and ddg both yield proper results.
Then shortened the query to just "qwen-3.8 flash next" ... results came.. all unrelated. In fact, these were almost all paper links .... no relation to actual search term.
And I had thought that I finally had found a cheaper search alternative.
I made a zero ads SERP using one of these "AI first" search providers: https://github.com/scosman/froogle (live version https://froogle.fyi). In this case Keenable.ai. Generally the same pattern: it's not usable.
You know the craziest part? This time I searched for their own website address: "ceramic.ai" .. results came... none pointing to the website or any page on it.
Then searched for "Cloudflare OHTTP Gateway" .. this text is literally in the title ... but zero link for this page.. the closest it yielded was this link: "https://developers.cloudflare.com/privacy-gateway/" ... it seems cloudflare updated this 2 days back.. the original content was last updated in 2022 ... so that's what the cutoff index seems to be.
I guess I'm not understanding the value here - to compete with Google and the likes, the scale, cost and complexity would be huge. Appreciate new entrants in an existing field but not seeing this one.
Codex and Claude Code need to do countless web searches, I'd guess they have a partnership with Google. Open models don't have this partnership so the search API needs to come from somewhere.
>"to compete with Google and the likes, the scale, cost and complexity would be huge."
CloudFlare's entire business is scale, cost, and complexity. They are powering like half the web at this point. Wouldn't really call them a "new entrant".
My coding agent uses the hister cli, i.e. a local index. That often requires me to seed it manually as a downside. The upside is that it caches website contents via browser plugin, which is a nice workaround for bot blocking.
What do you mean by seeding it manually? Like do you programmatically "browse" to bolster your hister index? Asking because I started using hister a month or so ago and have been really liking it, and I'm curious how others are using it.
Yes, I browse around, open a dozen tabs so they get indexed, and close them without reading. Then a coding agent is pretty good in composing a report from that index. Generated these recently: https://qznc.github.io/sloppy_research/en/
Hister tells me my index is currently 39208 pages.
Let's not conflate crawlers with the traffic that bot protection services block. A crawler that respects robots.txt is a good internet citizen and can provide a vital service.
That doesn't match my experience. For example, I recently had Meta scrape robots.txt disallowed paths. On some page they claimed they respect it but they don't. And yes, all the IPs they used to connect to me (they used a different /64 network for each connection) were owned by Meta, it was not someone pretending to be them.
However, so-called AI crawlers are not the same as crawlers of yore. They hit live pages every time a user prompt triggers a web search.
This Web Search API, unlike an AI crawler, only fetches periodically. It feels like a step in the right direction for managing resource strain across the internet. If only the LLM giants could do something similar.
Yeah, I keep wondering if I should switch to something cheaper, but I'm too lazy to evaluate service qualities across providers, and I don't really use enough for it to matter. If they are the most expensive because they're the best, I'm fine with that, but have no idea.
I wish non-fuzzy searching was still trendy. It sucks when I know what I need and remember a bunch of keywords from the page, but search engines return either 0 results or a bunch of results that don't even contain the keywords.
Does anyone have insights on the quality differences? Web search API pricing for AI agent usecases has always felt so expensive for what it is, but I have no grounding on the economics of running a web index.
The internet is devolving before our eyes. Use a nicely, stable API with an SLO for a small fee or scrape via a Candy Crush clone running on some grandmas iPad in Nebraska... hard choice.
I was just looking into these as DeepSeek Harness w/ Qwen3.8-27B relies heavily on search. I was going to go with Serper.dev[0] $1 per 1000 (or lower in quantity).
The providers[1] behind this Web Search API have very different rates:
Ceramic.ai: $0.25 per 1,000 requests
Linkup: $5.00 per 1,000 requests
Exa: $7.00 per 1,000 requests
I am pretty sure exa specifically say it trains on your data in it's privacy policy, so how can it be ZDR ?
I remember as I was looking at the available web tools for hermes agent not to long ago and looked through the keyless web providers privacy policies, which exa is one of them.
My number one question about search APIs is always if they allow you to store and resyndicate results you get from them.
If I'm running an agent system but I'm not allowed to store the responses - or provide a "share transcript" button - that's a pretty significant limitation.
The answer to that question is inevitably buried deep in the terms. Here's the relevant section I found for Ceramic, in their list of things you can't do:
> (n) collect, aggregate, store, or compile Output, including search results, relevance scores, or rankings, for the purpose of creating or contributing to any database, dataset, index, or corpus, whether or not such database, dataset, index, or corpus is used for a purpose that competes with Ceramic; (o) resell, syndicate, or otherwise make Output available to any third party on a standalone basis or as a separately accessible component of another product or service; provided that you may display Output to your authorized end users within your own application so long as such Output is integrated into your application's functionality, is incident to the end user’s real-time query, and is not independently accessible, extractable, or downloadable by end users or third parties; or (p) retain, cache, or store Output beyond what is reasonably necessary to display such Output to your authorized end users in the ordinary and real-time course of use, unless expressly permitted in an applicable Order Form.
My general stance on things like this is to think about the intent -- why does the company have that in their TOS. Use that as a proxy for assessing the likelihood of the company enforcing the terms against you.
Which is why, as much as I love Cloudflare, I wouldn't route things like this through their billing. The risk that a company's entire infrastructure goes down, perhaps even by a fraud/risk flag by an incorrectly-configured AI (including, say, if the search API providers are back-sharing their own potentially-broken abuse flagging metadata with Cloudflare), is far too great.
It seemed like this part gives you the exception you wanted:
> provided that you may display Output to your authorized end users within your own application so long as such Output is integrated into your application's functionality, is incident to the end user’s real-time query ...
but it continues:
> ... and is not independently accessible, extractable, or downloadable by end users or third parties
How can you prevent end users from extracting it if its visible? Why even have the exception if you just throw it out with an impossible to meet restriction like this?
Not to mention: "retain, cache, or store Output beyond what is reasonably necessary to display such Output to your authorized end users in the ordinary and real-time course of use" which would seem to preclude storing it in a long lived session.
> So they crawled the web, stole the information to populate their own database and then pretend it was "illegal" for others to steal it back?
These days, this seems to be "modus operandi". The bet is who can get closer to the administration to suddenly enforce the un-enforce-able. For your own safety. You wouldn't steal a car now, would you?
To acquiesce to manufactured "social truths", to resign complacently to them being "modus operandi" means to place yourself outside of the society you live in.
You make yourself subject to a social reality you presume outside of your control. But you enabled them, if by nothing else, by your silent acceptance.
Moral and ethical judgements cannot be left to the very same people they are supposed to restrain in the first place.
Don't think it's unreasonable. They crawled it and made it available in an easy to digest form. You can't take their copy and start distributing it infinitely while paying them for one-time read.
Write your crawler, and crawl the web on your own if you want... and give it away!
You glaze over the fact, they stole the data to begin with and never recuperate their sources. That's not "reasonable".
They don't make it available "easily" either, they place all kinds of hurdles on it, including you having to pay for stolen goods.
You then go on, equating wildly different situations: on one hand, a multi-billion dollar company, easily able to set up such a scheme. On the other (me representing) the public, regularly anything but destitute.
So no, you're the unreasonable one here. So are they.
There is a difference between "read my content and make it available to your users" and "make money by reading my content and making it available to your users". Terms of use like this are trying to say "we are the only ones who get to make money from this", and therein lies the problem.
This is the right way to think about it. If there's any fear of getting caught, just use a reputable VPN or one of the hundreds of residential proxy providers.
The whole point of this product from Cloudflare is to let LLMs "top up" their corpus of knowledge with up-to-the-minute search results after they have been trained on the contents of the entire Internet. The idea that courts would enforce intellectual property rights on little upstarts trying to make LLM wrappers without enforcing any TOS affecting the massive training scrapers is ridiculous. Probably true, but logically unjustifiable.
the zero-retention promise from the search providers is useful, but the requests also show up in gateway logs. can you keep the billing data without storing the actual search queries?
Wow I guess I am in the minority of folks building a search engine for humans now, this is a wild business model but best of luck to the 3 search index providers sitting behind this proxy, I hope it's worth their while financially speaking. Building an index is hard and expensive (I know).
Search is an interesting building block for agentic systems. The challenge isn't just retrieving results, but deciding what to search for, evaluating the results, and determining when the information is sufficient to move to the next step.
As AI systems increasingly use search as a tool, the quality and reliability of that tool become an important part of the overall agent workflow.
SearXNG works pretty well for my personal agents. FYI it's a free search gateway you can host locally, and there are many public instances. It's like the old days when many different people provided the same free service for all.
Cloudflare has been shipping more than FedEx lately. Would love to learn more about how they are going about this from a strategy, planning and execution standpoint.
I run a small side project on Cloudflare Workers, so having search available right from a Worker without adding another vendor is appealing. Curious how the pricing compares to Brave's search API.
I am trying to understand the value.. This is for customers who have their agents already on CF? Improved latency & same eco-system etc., Right? Because others can always use Google Search APIs
Many people have outsourced the decision on who can access their websites to CloudFlare ("bot protection"), which incidentally makes these websites harder to access by bots working for humans.
Now there is an official paid search API, and I'm guessing the certified providers will be allowed through the Cloudflare "bot protection"?
Spent a few months building a product scraper using a mad mash up of various LLMs, OCR, etc. The pricing for their providers is 3x-8x higher than something like Luna 5.6 w/ Web Search. Not sure what their differentiator is, unless they just wanted to launch something.
Surprised no one in this thread has mentioned running a self hosted search API.
I personally used to use Firecrawl's paid credits (got a bunch of em for free at an event) before I realized that they allow you to self-host your own instance (albeit missing some features I never use anyways).
It's been working really well for my agents, I even hosted a small observability tool that proxies the requests so I can see how many are failing and the percentages are always below 2%.
Anthropic plausibly uses Brave Search... and Brave search maintains its own index. Makes sense: cheaper search API, leveraging non-Google, etc.
Here we are, one layer of indirection more: Ceramic, Exa, Linkup. Who knows what they use. If you told me that those 3 build and maintain their own index, I'd first question whether that was true, and if it is, I would question whether it was any good (relative to Google/Bing/Brave).
So what is CF providing here? Maybe some free credits to entice us to use their router? No, not that either ("billed to your AI Gateway credits"). Maybe a comparison of which agent search yields the best results? Nope.
It's a crappy proxy- probably less efficient and more volatile than hitting the agent API directly.
This is only if I understand the product correctly (which I admittedly skimmed) due to the sheer number of screeching vibey nothingburgers coming out of CF over the past month.
>Here we are, one layer of indirection more: Ceramic, Exa, Linkup. Who knows what they use. If you told me that those 3 build and maintain their own index, I'd first question whether that was true, and if it is, I would question whether it was any good (relative to Google/Bing/Brave).
Hi! Exa Head of Index here. We certainly do have our own index and it's one of the biggest among the independent players (i.e. not Google and Bing, which by the way closed off their official search APIs). [1]
Regarding the quality: search is a multi-dimensional problem, you can be better on one set of queries and worse on the other. There are tons of benchmarks in the industry, all the players in the AI search market are fighting very hard to climb to the top, updates are shared every week.
We track dozens of use cases and run evals continuously, we perform well on all the verticals we optimize for. Not only we top the ranking on e.g. financial queries, but also Claude with Exa search performs better that Claude with native search -- as measured by independent observers [2]. This means that the underlying search is materially better for the outcome, it's not just how we evaluate the search itself.
binarymax | 10 hours ago
unified101 | 10 hours ago
not_math | 10 hours ago
binarymax | 10 hours ago
bayesianbot | 9 hours ago
Instead I put my API keys to cloudflare, set limits, and gave the agent the CloudFlare token, and in minutes it could contact tens of services.
edit: not to mention instead of loading balance to each service I could just keep balance on cloudflare that covers them all
JumpCrisscross | 3 hours ago
Extremely hard to verify it's been done properly across a large organization.
478336632929 | 9 hours ago
wongarsu | 9 hours ago
ForHackernews | 8 hours ago
Put it this way: I'd rather Cloudflare owns the Internet than Google, Meta, Amazon or Alibaba.
OutOfHere | 7 hours ago
Cloudflare is however known to deliberately screw over some of their clients.
> I'd rather Cloudflare owns the Internet
I'd rather no one does, certainly not a firm that feeds into the NSA.
ForHackernews | 7 hours ago
[0] https://blog.cloudflare.com/why-we-terminated-daily-stormer/
OutOfHere | 7 hours ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44150898 (2025)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40481808 (2024)
https://robindev.substack.com/p/cloudflare-took-down-our-web...
Reddit comments report more such incidents, with Cloudflare demanding an upgrade to Enterprise. This has also come up for other sites, such as gambling sites.
Also, Cloudflare implicitly screws over everyone by leaking data to the NSA.
esseph | 4 hours ago
I have always operated under the assumption that every cloud provider and telco does this, so this claim has always seemed very silly to me.
OutOfHere | 4 hours ago
esseph | 4 hours ago
That said, these are US companies subject to FISA court orders and NSLs or National Security Letters. If they want your data, they can just pull it from memory in real time or pull it directly from the hypervisor and dump it wherever they're instructed to. Any idea that your data is protected because you're not even using a provider WAF or doing TLS termination for load balancing is a fantasy.
OutOfHere | 3 hours ago
I control which DNS server I use. It is not relevant to the matter at hand.
> If they want your data, they can just pull it from memory in real time or pull it directly from the hypervisor and dump it wherever they're instructed to.
You're confusing bulk data collection with highly selective court-ordered data collection. The two are not alike. Attempting to equate them is a dumb attempt at deception on your part. There is no obligation for a firm to share bulk web data with the NSA.
encom | 5 hours ago
Yes that's precisely how I want infrastructure to operate.
ppseafield | 4 hours ago
> Our terms of service reserve the right for us to terminate users of our network at our sole discretion. The tipping point for us making this decision was that the team behind Daily Stormer made the claim that we were secretly supporters of their ideology.
> Our team has been thorough and have had thoughtful discussions for years about what the right policy was on censoring. Like a lot of people, we’ve felt angry at these hateful people for a long time but we have followed the law and remained content neutral as a network. We could not remain neutral after these claims of secret support by Cloudflare.
https://blog.cloudflare.com/why-we-terminated-daily-stormer/
ForHackernews | an hour ago
Per Matthew Prince:
"This was my decision. Our terms of service reserve the right for us to terminate users of our network at our sole discretion. My rationale for making this decision was simple: the people behind the Daily Stormer are assholes and I’d had enough.
Let me be clear: this was an arbitrary decision. It was different than what I’d talked talked with our senior team about yesterday. I woke up this morning in a bad mood and decided to kick them off the Internet. I called our legal team and told them what we were going to do. I called our Trust & Safety team and had them stop the service. It was a decision I could make because I’m the CEO of a major Internet infrastructure company."
This is one of the best, most honest things I've seen a tech CEO write. Contrast this with Zuckerberg's mealy-mouthed weaseling about "policies"[1]. I wish more tech overlords had the honesty to say, "No, we are not a court. We are booting you because we don't like you."
[0] https://gizmodo.com/cloudflare-ceo-on-terminating-service-to...
[1] https://www.newsweek.com/read-mark-zuckerbergs-full-statemen...
Muromec | 5 hours ago
The government always wins this given enough time.
goalieca | 9 hours ago
rithdmc | 10 hours ago
ForHackernews | 9 hours ago
Given the number of people on HN who report massive problems from scrapers and other bots, it sounds like if Cloudflare doesn't do this, someone else will need to. I might have thought bandwidth was cheap enough now for it not to matter, but I guess the bots are costing some sites a lot of money.
timpera | 9 hours ago
As for the bots, I thought the same thing, but it is indeed a huge problem. They've brought my websites down pretty frequently recently. I tried Cloudflare but visitors complained, and I think you can't win against the bots anyway, so I've resorted to performance improvements and serving every request.
someonebaggy | 9 hours ago
viraptor | 8 hours ago
- let more traffic in, eat the compute cost
- block larger cohorts of traffic, affect many real users
- babysit the rules to get them just right, lose time doing that
In my experience the residential proxies exist but are not that common and many aren't trying as hard as they could. It's really a war of which side wants to spend more attention on the problem.
someonebaggy | 7 hours ago
codingdave | 3 hours ago
tucnak | 9 hours ago
patwolf | 9 hours ago
hobofan | 9 hours ago
ryandvm | 9 hours ago
viraptor | 8 hours ago
It means "hi spending approver, I'm going to add $100 to our CF account" instead of "hi accounting+management+security, please initiate the process of evaluating new third party vendor Foo for use in my project, I hope we can get it approved and integrated into SSO sometime next month".
deadbabe | 6 hours ago
ryandvm | 4 hours ago
tomrod | 5 hours ago
ttul | 5 hours ago
ricardobeat | 3 hours ago
pampas | 52 minutes ago
pampas | 54 minutes ago
moralestapia | 8 hours ago
Why would I use bonsai? Why not use ElasticSearch directly?
simultsop | 4 hours ago
tom1337 | 10 hours ago
astonex | 10 hours ago
weird-eye-issue | 9 hours ago
There actually is such a thing as verified bots on Cloudflare that gets through most blocks (and these services are likely are part of that), but ultimately it just depends on how the website owner has things set up in Cloudflare
dbbk | 9 hours ago
weird-eye-issue | 8 hours ago
viraptor | 8 hours ago
Verified bot is just a label. What you do with that information is entirely up to you as the operator. It doesn't say anything anything about the service and doesn't provide any guarantees about the traffic.
weird-eye-issue | 8 hours ago
viraptor | an hour ago
timpera | 10 hours ago
The absence of the Perplexity Search API is to be expected though, knowing how much these two companies despise each other.
AznHisoka | 9 hours ago
timpera | 8 hours ago
Oras | 9 hours ago
I use CloudFlare developer platform and quite happy with tools, but I didn’t use the gateway API and always used OpenRouter which does support web search.
I can see it useful for those who didn’t do any integrations or like to keep logs at one place, but did customers actually ask for this?
Herz | 9 hours ago
dewey | 9 hours ago
AznHisoka | 9 hours ago
someonebaggy | 9 hours ago
winstonp | 8 hours ago
sebzim4500 | 8 hours ago
viraptor | 8 hours ago
sva_ | 7 hours ago
Running your stuff, even private stuff, through a tunnel is great so that you don't have to expose your VPS' IPv4.
CuriouslyC | 5 hours ago
esseph | 4 hours ago
CDN, DDoS protection, excellent DNS hosting features, web monitoring, web analytics, advanced web and service filtering and blocking, zerotrust networking / vpn options, a solid API that works great with terraform, tons of other stuff.
judge2020 | an hour ago
esseph | 27 minutes ago
(Actually multiple, one for each domain)
https://developers.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-for-platforms/w...
judge2020 | an hour ago
You also don't pay for actual data transfer, so the billing is overall simpler - AWS and GCP have similar per-request compute options, but every part of the platform has extra fees (like per-gb data transfer billing, sometimes you need a VPC to interconnect services, secrets being an extra charge, etc).
thepoet | 9 hours ago
esseph | 4 hours ago
iphonecorridor | 9 hours ago
Perhaps realizing all of this, Google hasn’t yet deprecated 2.5, bit limits access to it to “those who have used it before.”
It’s really really good for low cost search!
rvz | 9 hours ago
Don't give them (G) ideas.
iphonecorridor | 9 hours ago
twoodfin | 8 hours ago
Google Search only works as a business because human eyeballs see (and brains choose to click on) ads at rates that justify advertisers’ (massive in aggregate) dollars.
embedding-shape | 4 hours ago
If Google instead spun out Google Search into it's independent company, with actual focus on search instead of whatever they're doing now, with an actual business model, it might actually work, granted they get back the old search quality.
Kagi is an example of search engine that manages to also be a business today and not theoretically.
iancuandrei | 9 hours ago
LatticeAnimal | 8 hours ago
(Was your comment a joke? Or did google announce this through different channels?)
0: https://ai.google.dev/gemini-api/docs/deprecations
iancuandrei | 7 hours ago
https://docs.cloud.google.com/gemini-enterprise-agent-platfo...
LatticeAnimal | 6 hours ago
jrecyclebin | 6 hours ago
iphonecorridor | 5 hours ago
apwheele | 8 hours ago
I am currently using Perplexity fast search and fetch, and I am happy with that. I would try our Ceramic.ai, but I need to be able to fetch the pages as well (I do not want summaries).
shauryajain21 | 4 hours ago
apwheele | 4 hours ago
stavros | 7 hours ago
ezfe | 6 hours ago
stavros | 6 hours ago
karmakaze | 7 hours ago
iphonecorridor | 5 hours ago
jsemrau | 5 hours ago
1. Google News API now returns only Google links that don't resolve to anything in code. 2. Google Search results are atrocious and only unearth non-authoritative blogspam and aggregator sites.
winter_blue | 4 hours ago
wmchen | 2 hours ago
[1]: https://aistudio.google.com
anon373839 | 9 hours ago
But does CloudFlare itself commit to zero data retention? If not, this isn’t too meaningful.
freakynit | 9 hours ago
Then shortened the query to just "qwen-3.8 flash next" ... results came.. all unrelated. In fact, these were almost all paper links .... no relation to actual search term.
And I had thought that I finally had found a cheaper search alternative.
scosman | 9 hours ago
freakynit | 9 hours ago
Then searched for "Cloudflare OHTTP Gateway" .. this text is literally in the title ... but zero link for this page.. the closest it yielded was this link: "https://developers.cloudflare.com/privacy-gateway/" ... it seems cloudflare updated this 2 days back.. the original content was last updated in 2022 ... so that's what the cutoff index seems to be.
vscarpenter | 9 hours ago
owebmaster | 9 hours ago
jeromechoo | 7 hours ago
ramesh31 | 9 hours ago
CloudFlare's entire business is scale, cost, and complexity. They are powering like half the web at this point. Wouldn't really call them a "new entrant".
qznc | 9 hours ago
Thanks asciimoo for https://github.com/asciimoo/hister
cootsnuck | 4 hours ago
qznc | 4 hours ago
Hister tells me my index is currently 39208 pages.
bityard | 4 hours ago
aantix | 59 minutes ago
The original request via the MCP is somehow blocked?
hankbond | 36 minutes ago
does it? I am running it but was under the impression that it did not cache the content I am viewing, unlike SinglePage.
okokwhatever | 9 hours ago
breakingcups | 8 hours ago
gxcsoccer | 6 hours ago
sreekanth850 | 8 hours ago
doginasuit | 7 hours ago
sreekanth850 | 7 hours ago
Jskewel | 2 hours ago
But that's meaningless because 99% of AI crawlers are "bad bots" which ignore robots.txt and use domestic IPs to circumvent blocks.
dawidpotocki | 2 hours ago
Some other reports of this: https://github.com/TecharoHQ/anubis/issues/1565
I ended up just fully closing connections with no response from these assholes on any URL.
madibo3156 | 7 hours ago
This Web Search API, unlike an AI crawler, only fetches periodically. It feels like a step in the right direction for managing resource strain across the internet. If only the LLM giants could do something similar.
senko | 3 hours ago
0xbadcafebee | 5 hours ago
ronfriedhaber | 8 hours ago
breakingcups | 8 hours ago
fnordsensei | 8 hours ago
1: https://kagi.com/api/docs/openapi
ctolsen | 8 hours ago
frizkie | 6 hours ago
pkulak | 2 hours ago
jamesponddotco | 7 hours ago
loehnsberg | 5 hours ago
I noticed that my API quota resets every month. Have not been charged once.
bityard | 4 hours ago
JumpCrisscross | 3 hours ago
What's your plan? I'm on Duo and I get charged for every MCP hit. If an API quota is included with Ultimate, that might be worth my upgrading.
corentin88 | 8 hours ago
uzerfcwn | 4 hours ago
8bite | 8 hours ago
ceramic.ai - $0.25 per 1,000 requests
Exa - $7.00 per 1,000 requests
Linkup - $5.00 per 1,000 requests
Does anyone have insights on the quality differences? Web search API pricing for AI agent usecases has always felt so expensive for what it is, but I have no grounding on the economics of running a web index.
EDIT: formatting
stefs | 7 hours ago
nreece | 7 hours ago
sejje | 6 hours ago
They have 2,500 free which I used, it seemed good.
I'm unaffiliated--actually a clanker told me about it so I told it "go ahead"
OutOfHere | 7 hours ago
jasonjmcghee | 7 hours ago
And then on the providers page:
jeromechoo | 7 hours ago
mrweasel | 7 hours ago
qingcharles | 5 hours ago
mrweasel | 3 hours ago
lukewarm707 | 6 hours ago
karmakaze | 7 hours ago
The providers[1] behind this Web Search API have very different rates:
[0] https://serper.dev/[1] https://developers.cloudflare.com/web-search/providers/
0fflineuser | 7 hours ago
I remember as I was looking at the available web tools for hermes agent not to long ago and looked through the keyless web providers privacy policies, which exa is one of them.
ashley95 | 7 hours ago
lukewarm707 | 6 hours ago
simonw | 7 hours ago
If I'm running an agent system but I'm not allowed to store the responses - or provide a "share transcript" button - that's a pretty significant limitation.
The answer to that question is inevitably buried deep in the terms. Here's the relevant section I found for Ceramic, in their list of things you can't do:
> (n) collect, aggregate, store, or compile Output, including search results, relevance scores, or rankings, for the purpose of creating or contributing to any database, dataset, index, or corpus, whether or not such database, dataset, index, or corpus is used for a purpose that competes with Ceramic; (o) resell, syndicate, or otherwise make Output available to any third party on a standalone basis or as a separately accessible component of another product or service; provided that you may display Output to your authorized end users within your own application so long as such Output is integrated into your application's functionality, is incident to the end user’s real-time query, and is not independently accessible, extractable, or downloadable by end users or third parties; or (p) retain, cache, or store Output beyond what is reasonably necessary to display such Output to your authorized end users in the ordinary and real-time course of use, unless expressly permitted in an applicable Order Form.
https://www.ceramic.ai/terms-of-service
Am I alone in caring about this?
sanderjd | 7 hours ago
cj | 5 hours ago
derac | 4 hours ago
btown | 3 hours ago
infogulch | 5 hours ago
> provided that you may display Output to your authorized end users within your own application so long as such Output is integrated into your application's functionality, is incident to the end user’s real-time query ...
but it continues:
> ... and is not independently accessible, extractable, or downloadable by end users or third parties
How can you prevent end users from extracting it if its visible? Why even have the exception if you just throw it out with an impossible to meet restriction like this?
foota | 5 hours ago
simonw | 5 hours ago
Loquebantur | 4 hours ago
The weird attitude in the Internet Tech company scene is akin to Gold Rush scenarios.
Who are the native people?
measurablefunc | 4 hours ago
atmosx | 3 hours ago
These days, this seems to be "modus operandi". The bet is who can get closer to the administration to suddenly enforce the un-enforce-able. For your own safety. You wouldn't steal a car now, would you?
Loquebantur | 3 hours ago
You make yourself subject to a social reality you presume outside of your control. But you enabled them, if by nothing else, by your silent acceptance.
Moral and ethical judgements cannot be left to the very same people they are supposed to restrain in the first place.
debo_ | 2 hours ago
Loquebantur | 2 hours ago
nkingsy | an hour ago
slowpoison | 2 hours ago
Loquebantur | 2 hours ago
They don't make it available "easily" either, they place all kinds of hurdles on it, including you having to pay for stolen goods.
You then go on, equating wildly different situations: on one hand, a multi-billion dollar company, easily able to set up such a scheme. On the other (me representing) the public, regularly anything but destitute.
So no, you're the unreasonable one here. So are they.
sroussey | an hour ago
If someone does not want on a search engine index and they say not to index, and then get indexed anyhow is stealing.
But a “please read my content and make available to your users” then claim doing so is stealing seems a bit out there.
What am I missing?
BrenBarn | an hour ago
DANmode | 2 hours ago
- Tony Soprano
phoghed | 4 hours ago
writtenone | 4 hours ago
kokanee | 3 hours ago
Jeeetendra | 7 hours ago
saltysalt | 7 hours ago
hmartin | 6 hours ago
https://github.com/hbmartin/agent-web-search
So this gives a unified search experience without adding another cloud hop and dependency.
locitra | 5 hours ago
As AI systems increasingly use search as a tool, the quality and reliability of that tool become an important part of the overall agent workflow.
0xbadcafebee | 5 hours ago
asjq178 | 5 hours ago
MITM service, Internet gatekeeper and robber baron.
esseph | 4 hours ago
AI firms sell security services
daft_pink | 5 hours ago
moealmaw | 4 hours ago
[0] https://developers.cloudflare.com/fundamentals/reference/mar...
alexey-salmin | an hour ago
* Extraction of main content from HTMLs, the index stores markdown representations (free of headers/footers/sidebars/menus etc)
* Serving highlights picking the most relevant part for each result to reduce token usage downstream
* Also serving dynamic highlights where we summarize all the sources at once reducing the token counts even further
see here: https://exa.ai/docs/search/highlights and https://exa.ai/docs/contents/quickstart
1vuio0pswjnm7 | 5 hours ago
https://developers.cloudflare.com/llms.txt
As a textmode command line and text-only browser user this textfile is faster for me to use that the usual Silicon Valley style web pages
Not quite as good as sitemap-0.xml but it's nice to have this in addition
babelfish | 5 hours ago
maelito | 5 hours ago
innocent_name | 4 hours ago
duncangh | 4 hours ago
kobieps | 4 hours ago
orliesaurus | 4 hours ago
ByeByeSpace | 4 hours ago
zergrush | 4 hours ago
measurablefunc | 4 hours ago
Nan0pk | 4 hours ago
yellow_lead | 4 hours ago
JMiao | 3 hours ago
laumars | 3 hours ago
https://docs.searxng.org/
starcast2026 | 3 hours ago
raajg | 3 hours ago
jwr | 3 hours ago
Now there is an official paid search API, and I'm guessing the certified providers will be allowed through the Cloudflare "bot protection"?
This is very worrying.
EcommerceFlow | 3 hours ago
hrideshmg | 2 hours ago
I personally used to use Firecrawl's paid credits (got a bunch of em for free at an event) before I realized that they allow you to self-host your own instance (albeit missing some features I never use anyways).
It's been working really well for my agents, I even hosted a small observability tool that proxies the requests so I can see how many are failing and the percentages are always below 2%.
jeromechoo | an hour ago
blakeashleyjr | 2 hours ago
NO SCRAPERS (except ours) -> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
blurbleblurble | 2 hours ago
solaire_oa | 2 hours ago
Here we are, one layer of indirection more: Ceramic, Exa, Linkup. Who knows what they use. If you told me that those 3 build and maintain their own index, I'd first question whether that was true, and if it is, I would question whether it was any good (relative to Google/Bing/Brave).
So what is CF providing here? Maybe some free credits to entice us to use their router? No, not that either ("billed to your AI Gateway credits"). Maybe a comparison of which agent search yields the best results? Nope.
It's a crappy proxy- probably less efficient and more volatile than hitting the agent API directly.
This is only if I understand the product correctly (which I admittedly skimmed) due to the sheer number of screeching vibey nothingburgers coming out of CF over the past month.
alexey-salmin | an hour ago
Hi! Exa Head of Index here. We certainly do have our own index and it's one of the biggest among the independent players (i.e. not Google and Bing, which by the way closed off their official search APIs). [1]
Regarding the quality: search is a multi-dimensional problem, you can be better on one set of queries and worse on the other. There are tons of benchmarks in the industry, all the players in the AI search market are fighting very hard to climb to the top, updates are shared every week.
We track dozens of use cases and run evals continuously, we perform well on all the verticals we optimize for. Not only we top the ranking on e.g. financial queries, but also Claude with Exa search performs better that Claude with native search -- as measured by independent observers [2]. This means that the underlying search is materially better for the outcome, it's not just how we evaluate the search itself.
[1] https://lnkd.in/p/e9u3dyEG [2] https://lnkd.in/p/enYe4h7u