Author here. The 254% figure comes from RAND Round 5.1. I built a Python pipeline on CMS HCRIS cost reports (FY2023, 3,193 hospitals) to compute cost-to-charge ratios by ownership type. The surprising finding: nonprofit hospitals have a median markup of 3.96x actual costs. All scripts are in the repo. Happy to discuss methodology.
Challenge is the whole system is just a mess. Medicare probably lays too little. Commercial insurers have formed a mountain of red tape and bureaucracy and arguably pay too much, although individual bills (EOBs) are rarely logically defensible against any scrutiny.
Healthcare providers try and combat all this by literally just making up pricing and trying to negotiate something while also having bloated administrative structures that raise costs for all.
Nothing about the current state of the healthcare system makes much sense to anyone that tries to peel back the onion.
>Nothing about the current state of the healthcare system makes much sense to anyone that tries to peel back the onion.
I'd offer a slight tweak. None makes sense in a vacuum or solely considering efficiency. It all makes sense seeing the evolution over time and the misaligned incentives.
What's wild, is that at least in the slice of healthcare I'm in, Medicare is one of our best most reliable payors. In fact, in some cases, our contracts with private insurers have them promise to pay at least 80-85% of what Medicare would reimburse us.
The other benefit with Medicare is that they just give us a lump sum of money and let us do what we want with it as long as we get good outcomes. Which means we don't have to fight for every visit we make to the patient. And they base it off of a public formula that we have access to (unlike with the private insurers).
This is a believable result. Meta-analysis is 141-259% [1].
Three reasons:
1. Medicare has quasi-monopolistic negotiation power that private insurers can only dream of -- Medicare spend two-thirds of all the private insurers combined. That's why private insurers would combine in a heartbeat if the FTC allowed it.
2. Moreover, that Medicare volume is concentrated in a specific segment of the market. If many providers dropped expensive United contracts, the insured people/companies might move to a new insurer. But Medicare's base will never leave.
3. Since Medicare covers older individuals, often on a fixed income, there is natural discriminatory pricing. (Think of the "senior discount" at your local entertainment venue.)
Look at hearing aids. 50,000% markup or higher, even up in the 70k% range in some examples. Old people don't know what to be skeptical of, or at least haven't been nearly skeptical enough, and some industries are getting away with terrible exploitation, all blessed and sanctioned by the FDA.
Also, commercial insurers are essentially cross-subsidizing Medicare: the higher revenue from commercial insurers is partly why Medicare can be paid less. Similar dynamics exist with drug prices: the high US cost is a cross-subsidy to other countries. Maybe this is good (someone's got to fund R&D), maybe this is bad (it's a net wealth transfer to the elderly), but it's an important part of the dynamic either way.
If you want to understand the hidden cross-subsidies in the US healthcare financing system then a good place to start is the book "The Price We Pay: What Broke American Health Care--and How to Fix It" by Dr. Marty Makary.
Looked into a summary of the book, with notes by chapter and haven't found any mention of the American system subsidising pharma prices for other countries. It mentions a lot PBMs (like CVS, Cigna, etc.) as the culprit for high prices in the USA and talks about how when pharmacies are allowed to compete the prices do go down.
From the book it seems much more like the American public is being taken advantage of by the prescription fulfillment from pharmacy networks rather than subsidising anything for the rest of the world.
> Today, approximately 80% of Americans get their medications through a PBM.2 American businesses financing the coverage and the employees paying for their medications are usually oblivious to the price gouging. When people get frustrated that drug prices keep going up, they often point the finger at pharma bad boys like Martin Shkreli. More often, though, the price spikes are taking place right under their noses.
> If we could slash the spread, it would make a tremendous difference for thousands of businesses. According to a recent analysis in the journal Health Affairs, reducing generic reimbursement by $1 per prescription would lower health spending by $5.6 billion annually.
> Health insurance companies direct their business to their own PBMs, which increases their margins. For example, OptumRx, one of the big three PBMs, is owned by America’s largest health insurance company, UnitedHealth Group. Insurers may offer less expensive health insurance premiums. But then they use their PBM to achieve a greater profit margin.
> The PBM Express Scripts is now owned by the insurance company Cigna, and as I write this book, a merger between the PBM CVS Caremark and the insurer Aetna is being finalized. Together, the big three PBMs—OptumRx, Express Scripts, and CVS Caremark—control approximately 85% of the U.S. market and manage medication benefits for most people in the United States.
The cross-subsidy argument is one hospitals use to justify high commercial rates: "Medicare underpays, so we have to make it up on commercial." The HCRIS data lets you test this. If cross-subsidization were the full story, you'd expect cost-to-charge ratios to be tight — hospitals would charge commercial just enough to cover the Medicare shortfall. Instead, the median markup is 2.6x across all hospitals, and 3.96x for nonprofits. That's not cross-subsidy. That's pricing power in a concentrated market.
Thanks for the meta-analysis reference. The 141-259% range tracks with what I see in the HCRIS data. The variance across hospitals is enormous — even within the same bed-size category, the P75/P25 ratio for cost-to-charge is 2.5-3.4x. Hospitals in the same peer group are charging wildly different amounts for equivalent services. All the scripts are in the repo if you want to dig into the hospital-level data: github.com/rexrodeo/american-healthcare-conundrum
Lots of people are saying nonsense here. The actual reason commercial insurers pay more is that's the only way to can make more profits.
Because of Obamacare requiring 80% of the money they collect to be spent, the insurance companies just get to keep 20%. So insurance companies spend more so they can collect higher premiums. That's how they make more money.
It's easy with hindsight to believe you could have capped expense at 200% medicare but getting what we got passed was nearly impossible at the time. Before Affordable Care Act, insurers had every tool available to deny care, maximize profits, and skim more than 20% off the top. It's great we're getting closer to the point that it feels to you like incompetence that these things aren't fixed today but your anger with the medical lobby is clearly misplaced here.
Every major piece of legislation needs revisions to chase circumvention and we're well past due on updates but no legitimate bills have been presented that cover these topics and that's not a one-party issue.
Private insurance companies still do not cover pre-existing conditions. How? By not writing insurance to individuals except during ACA open enrollment. I know this because I tried to get private insurance before going to Mayo Clinic, because my ACA insurance with Ambetter was out of network. When I got through to an insurance company sales person for individual coverage, they told me they don't cover pre-existing conditions for 6 months. When I challenged them and said that's illegal, they hung up on me. Most companies I called had a phone menu that, when I pushed the buttons for individual coverage, would lead me into a loop, hang up on me, put me on hold forever, etc. They simply won't write individual coverage outside a couple of months at the end of the year. This effectively allows them to not cover pre-existing conditions, at least for individuals. For company employees, yes, the coverage of pre-existing conditions is a win.
I ended up paying $12K to Mayo for a week of appointments. Private insurance, if I could have gotten it, would have been at least $1000/mo for premiums (in 2020) plus $10K deductible, so I actually saved money just paying Mayo instead of getting private insurance.
IMO the only reason insurance companies allowed the ACA to pass was the stipulation that everyone in the US was required to get insurance coverage or face a penalty. When the Supreme Court ruled that provision illegal, I'm sure the insurance companies were furious that they were duped.
Your story is missing some pieces. Why didn't you sign up during ACA open enrollment? Those policies absolutely do cover pre-existing conditions. But not every provider organization will be in network for every health plan.
>Private insurance companies still do not cover pre-existing conditions. How? By not writing insurance to individuals except during ACA open enrollment.
Sorry I'm struggling to follow here. You think the open enrollment period effectively means that there's no prohibition on pre-existing conditions? Think you're kind of bending words outside of their normal usage because quite literally pre-existing condition policies are banned. The compensating counterbalance is a neutral open enrollment period so people don't just jump when they learn they have a health problem, it's a compromise to ensure financial sustainability.
You do understand that before this, it was worse right? One comment after another here is comparing the ACA to a magical fantasy, rather than the status quo that it improved upon.
That's how it was supposed to work though? There's an open enrollment period where anyone can sign up, pre-existing conditions or not. To prevent the adverse selection problem, which is where you don't sign up for insurance until you have a condition and then cost the insurance company a lot of money, you can only sign up at that time.
The thing you're trying to do - sign up for insurance to cover a specific procedure - is quite literally what the system is designed to prevent. You're supposed to have insurance all the time or none of the time. Did you try asking the clinic how much it would cost if you are uninsured and paid cash?
It’s probably the single worst decision of the entire bill and one of the largest wealth transfers in history.
If you tell me you’re going to light your house on fire and then ask me for fire insurance, I should be able to say no.
Instead what we have is not insurance, but the world’s worst socialized health plan. Insurance is for managing tail risk, not for distributing the cost of healthcare. If we’re willing to pay a tax to subsidize the elderly, we should cut out the middleman and let the government fill that function.
Obamacare was totally subverted by the medical lobby during its creation. They had a lot of great ideas but there were way too many politicians in Congress who had sold out to the lobby (Lieberman, Baucus on the democrat side) and would block anything that would reduce cost.
And since then it has been a fight for survival without much chance for improvement. The republican refuse anything that could improve it but want to “repeal and replace” but are struggling a little with the “replace” part. And the democrats are too timid to make another push.
So we end up with the worst of all worlds. Super expensive, overall results not very good and super complex.
It was the best they could do to get 60 votes because universal health care was too radical even though every industrialized country in the world does it.
It's almost as if no healthcare legislation gets passed before private insurers have figured out how to extract shareholder value.
(Which makes the system worse. The fiction of a fiduciary responsibility to extract top dollar from a business regardless of consequences is the opposite of "capitalism". Which derives its name from the practice of sound investment to build something of lasting value.
To say nothing of the social deviance of for-profit healthcare.)
Obama had nothing to do with what's in the ACA. It was ideas from moderate Republicans (previously prototyped in Massachusetts under governor Mitt Romney), advanced on the basis that it would receive bipartisan support as a result. But it didn't, so it was heavily amended until John McCain provided the last vote to get it through.
These limits don’t apply to self-funded programs that are administered by big insurance companies (most large employers’ plans, then) or plans less than two years old (whether there are measures in place to prevent simply rotating plans often to exploit this, I do not know)
This seems like we need similar price caps for healthcare providers, medical equipment providers, pharmaceuticals, etc. Done just in isolation for 1 part of the healthcare industry results in this obvious bad effect.
Price caps always and everywhere cause shortages, including long queues for certain types of care. This may be acceptable but we need to understand the trade-offs when making any changes.
Price caps create shortages when they are the rate limiting factor, which is always the case when imposed on a free market whenever the cap is below the market price, so this is an extremely accurate statement when dealing with things like lightly regulated commodities.
Whether they would be the rate limiting factor in health care remain to be seen, since health care is highly regulated with regulatory capture, licensing, and violence enforced market manipulations. As a thought experiment, in the extreme that health care were a pure monopoly, then I could envision some price caps somewhere between cost and price where the supply curve is relatively flat on either side thus creating minimal effects to supply.
You don't need to waste time with though experiments, you can just look around at various national healthcare systems. Wherever there are price caps, certain treatments have long queues or are simply not available at all. That's why affluent Canadians often come to the USA as medical tourists and pay cash for MRI scans or joint replacement surgery. Every system rations care somehow and price caps aren't necessarily the worst way to do it so let's just be real about the consequences.
Are those market price caps, or are those caps on what the 'single payer' in a 'national healthcare system[s]' is willing to pay? I was under the impression that in these systems, the 'shortage' was created by the fact the single payer was not willing to pay the free market rate that would clear for these services, therefore there is an undersupply of services provided to the 'single payer', not that there was usually an actual market cap.
Typically in these countries you actually can get health care as long as you pay privately yourself and don't go through the 'single payer.' A price cap would mean that no matter how much you're willing to pay, you can't pay over the cap, which is much rarer than the presence of 'national healthcare systems' that merely won't pay over the supposed soft 'cap'.
Indeed. The US has something around 4X the number of MRI scanners per capita compared to Canada. That’s an insane figure for what has become a baseline diagnostic tool.
Electricity price regulation, at least for transmission, has been a thing for states for 100+ years and federally since the 1930s. Pipelines and railroads also have price regulation of some sort.
Monopolies, in these cases natural monopolies, can in fact exist. Look at the Micro supply and demand curves. As a general rule over those 100 years, there has not been rationing of electricity. There are natural blackouts and today an unplanned surge in demand (as happens in every industry such as chips after Covid), but generally the price regulation did not cause some kind of gas lines.
That would break the system completely. The only reason any of this holds together at all is medical providers shift costs from one patient to another. Medicare doesn't pay enough for the care patients are provided, so hospitals charge private patients extra. If you introduced price caps either hospitals would start to go out of business or they'd stop accepting Medicare entirely.
So I happen to be in Costa Rica for the month. Just like every other 1st world country, it has managed to have universal health care that is better and cheaper without private insurance.
Even if you do get private insurance for quicker access, it’s still much cheaper than the US.
I just spoke to someone who flew down here to save $30K on dental work.
The problem isn’t the ACA, it’s the ass backwards American health care system. I was at a meetup of American ex-pats here and half of them said they established residency here to join CAJA - the health care system
ACA enshrined the worst parts of the American healthcare system for years to come. It is a politicized victory that is the best solution for no American citizens. Places I’ve been with fully privatized healthcare or single payer are both significantly better for consumers.
Insurance companies have raised prices to restore profit, were briefly a mandatory expense, and will exist for years to come.
Before ACA, insurance had a more traditional "insurancey" role by excluding pre-existing conditions (aka managing moral hazard) in order to make money via premiums. In the "guaranteed issue" world post-ACA, insurance companies have pivoted instead to extracting as much money as they can from an increasingly vertically integrated ecosystem (PBMs etc)
You have the two mixed up. Insurance companies - even for group insurance like through your company where they always had to accept everyone - required you to have “continuing coverage” and not have gaps or you had waiting periods.
The ACA also was written to enforce that through mandates and subsidies - a carrot and stick approach. The moral hazard was caused once there weren’t any mandates because of lawsuits by Republicans and the insurance companies still had to accept everyone.
It interacts badly with insurance being offered as workplace benefit. If you quit or lose your job, you'd lose your health insurance. And any plan you signed up for after that would then treat you as "pre-existing embers" and expect you to pay accordingly. The bundling of health insurance with workplace seems like the healthcare original sin to me.
Obama couldn't change that, so the ACA redesigned the system to work with it. Despite being called insurance, health insurance is no longer really viewed or designed to be any kind of insurance. Instead, it's supposed to be Netflix for healthcare. You pay a flat rate, and then get unlimited healthcare. Obviously, the issue with this is that if you don't need healthcare you can just not sign up for the subscription. So the ACA tried to solve this by requiring everyone to sign up. Once everyone is required to sign up, it's not right to discriminate against preexisting conditions. It may not be an especially good system, but it is coherent.
The US is allergic to taxes. Maybe it's a marketing thing. Benefits paid for by society.
Maybe a department of Return on Investment. See what those taxes pay for. Contrast to buying private versions of the services at the same SLA or better.
It’s more that the US is more like a collection of 50 little countries, and it’s supposed to be hard to accomplish much at a federal level. That separation has eroded a bit in the last 50 years but it’s still very much a part of our political ideology.
If you live long enough, you will have a pre existing condition.
The way it was suppose to work with the original mandate is that everyone had to be insured either through their employee or the exchange. So you couldn’t just buy insurance when you were sick. The Supreme Court struck that down.
If you lost your job, before the ACA, you could not get health insurance outside of working for someone and having group insurance at any cost.
But you do realize that the entire idea of not being able to get insurance because of pre-existing conditions is completely unique to the US?
Costa Rica for instance (where I am right now for a month and half) allows anyone to become a resident as long as you have guaranteed income of around $2000 a month or you deposit $60K into a local bank account and they arrange monthly disbursements and you pay 15% of your stated income to CAJA. Healthcare is both better and more affordable here.
The same is true for Panama. Why can’t the US figure this out?
> Why is that inherently bad? Should I be able to buy fire insurance on pre-existing embers?
What if someone gets Type 1 diabetes as a child so they can no longer get insurance because of that "pre-existing" condition: if they get cancer for unrelated reasons they should just be saddled with medical debt? Or because of your Type 1 you can't get coverage, and you get t-boned in your car by a drunk driver.
Certainly it sounds 'unfair' that someone who smokes (a personal choice) gets similar cancer coverage for someone who does not smoke. But it also means that if your ((great-)grand-)mother had cancer, and you get it through no fault/choice of your own (i.e. genetics), you can also get coverage. (This latter effects a cousin of mine: her aunt (mom's sister) died of cancer at 37, her mom at 63; so now she's wonder when here number will come up. We're in Canada, so have universal care, but it's still something in her DNA.)
There are many circumstances in which you suffer through no fault of your own, and universal health coverage is present in many societies because it was decided to protect those people—even if it allows some 'free-riding' by others making poor choices.
People make all sorts of crazy decisions to prevent the "wrong" people from getting what they "don't deserve":
Pre-existing conditions also continue to frame healthcare as 'insurance' against a bad thing happening to you, when it should just be a regular service like any other.
You don't need 'insurance' in order to get your vehicle serviced, but that is what the US does with healthcare.
The most it will ever cost me to go from “not having a working car” to “having a working car” is the cost of used car that will reliably get me from point A to point B.
it's bad for the person, obviously. The point of society-wide policies is not to maximize economic efficiency; they're supposed to making society a good place to live. Of course if you only look at them under an economic lens they're going to seem bad. Economically the best policy would be to kill all the sick people.
When one of my kids was 4, they had an unexplained seizure. Hospital workup, whole nine yards, never recurred; it was probably a medication reaction. Years later we were denied coverage from all the private insurers over it (more accurately: we were denied any coverage for that child).
Similarly, insurers would as a matter of course exclude from coverage any woman with one of several extremely common conditions, including endometriosis, PCOS, fibroids, and adenomyosis.
Prior to Obamacare, insurers were free to deny coverage wholesale for these conditions. It would have been fucked up to extend coverage but exclude any neurological conditions from my kid, but the actual outcome was worse: they were under the law entitled to withhold any coverage.
Not really, because whereas before things were bad for people with pre-existing conditions, now they are really bad for everyone.
People are paying exorbitant prices either for insurance, for routine health care stuff, or for both.
There was no free lunch, so we traded some health care for the chronically ill, for slightly less healthcare for everyone else. The insurance companies make sure it's an extractive zero-sum game in terms of actual healthcare provided.
When I was looking for healthcare after my employer went tits up right before the ACA went into affect, I couldn’t buy insurance at any price because of a pre-existing condition. Mine you that I have had my ore-existing condition since birth in 1974, had one surgery my entire life - foot surgery in 1996 - and this was 2011 and now I’m 52 and still haven’t had any complications from it and don’t expect to.
I was also a part time fitness instructor, runner and could past any of the standardized fitness assessment standards for someone who was 5 years younger as far as push ups, sit ups, running etc.
I had a contract so I could have easily paid more based on risk.
Before anyone mentions COBRA, that’s only an option if your former group plan still exists and it didn’t when the company went out of business.
Just looking, even now the ACA Silver for my wife and I would be around $800 a month in my state. Even ignoring medical costs have gone up more than inflation, that would have been $550 a month in 2011 if the ACA had been available.
Costa Rica is a beautiful country. But it is in no way “first world”.
It has no military, and is effectively dependent of the US and in best cases neighboring countries. It has excellent weather and soil which account for its fruits exports… and outside of some niche industry, is mostly reliant on tourism which means importing money.
I love that country and have been many times. But if it were god forbid wiped off the face of the earth, it would be sad and annoying at best.
Costa Rica has “free healthcare” / healcare from taxes because it has 5 million people, about 1/2 of New Jersey.
This isn’t some mechanism that the US just refuses to use. It’s a matter of scale. You either don’t know and should remain silent on the topic, or do know it and lack the honor to not state it.
Costa Rica purposefully got rid of its military so it could provide services. It didn’t feel a need to fund three unnecessary wars in two years.
Guess which other country has universal healthcare - China. They are just slightly more populous than the US.
> This isn’t some mechanism that the US just refuses to use. It’s a matter of scale. You either don’t know and should remain silent on the topic, or do know it and lack the honor to not state it.
China does have a military…
Maybe you should take your own advice. Every other country in the world seems to have figured this out.
Please stop spreading lies and propaganda. China does not have "universal healthcare" in any meaningful sense. They may claim to have it, but it's not something that poor people can actually access for expensive treatments. Patients have to pay out of pocket for most services.
Is that Canada and Britain that the have an ever persisting complaint that the delays are absurd? Among the specific points that…
With Canada now ending the life of 100k citizens a year making their MAID program now the leading cause of death in the country out ranking cancer and heart disease? How strange that in Canada you can deduct health expenses on your taxes… what a strange thing for a place with free healthcare?
And in Britain you mean the scandal-free and extremely popular NHS? I guess you have a great point there because it’s not their elite would immediately come to the US for care.
The grass is not greener. This is a bad system made worse and worse by heavy handed government “helping”. Healthcare in the US only got worse after ACA.
It's a difficult fix, because the real issue here isn't who pays, but how much it's paid, total. If the cost of care in the US was the same as the cost in, say, Spain, the vast majority of people would have little problem paying out of pocket, and having just high deductible insurance for really big ticket items. At the same time, it'd be easy to have the government pay for it all. The US system is just very expensive in general, so it's a problem regardless of who pays for it.
Most of the costs are ultimately salaries to Americans, and money handed to American companies, so most savings would come from someone's livelihood. That's why we cannot reform: The party that actually cuts costs will build resentment for decades, and create a blip of unemployment. Nobody wants to do that, and therefore you aren't going to be a serious, relentless attempt at cutting costs. We've seen how the attempts that the ACA made were counteracted by consolidation at all levels.
Serious cuts have to have no mother. Say, if we ever did have an AI that worked well enough at this, and outcompeted primary care physicians. Foreign pharmacies bypassing all controls and being able to hand you much discounted drugs the day after. Telemedicine and cheap travel put together to make surgery that didn't involve an ER visit just as easy and much cheaper than using the US system. Straight out disruption, because the incentives are such we sure aren't getting improvements in regulation.
Would doctors need to make as much money if the cost of education wasn’t so high? Would they need to charge as much if they didn’t have go have a staff to chase down payments from patients and deal with insurance companies?
Not to mention that because of Bush, the government is not allowed to negotiate drug prices.
In a vacuum sure. But insurance companies operate the only part of the healthcare system that is moderately competitive. In the end employers are the ones largely paying and they are professional negotiators enough to put price pressure on insurance plans. 20% of $0 is $0.
As such, as light of an incentive it is - it’s the only party in the entire system that is incentivized in any way whatsoever to keep costs down.
Insurance providers also rarely operate at the full freight 20% either way though. So they are at least at this time incentivized to control costs at some level since every dollar saved is a dollar added to the profit line. Otherwise they would not be known for denying claims so often.
This is ignoring a whole lot of very important complexities as well - such as self funded insurance plans that most major companies utilize. There the insurance company is simply a plan administrator getting paid the same either way.
It’s one of those tropes that has a source of truth behind it but the actual reality is far less satisfying of an answer. Makes for great sound bites and ability to shut down further thought on the subject though. The uncomfortable truth is that there is no simple fix and no one bad actor that is the cause of all the insanity.
It's such a small market that it's really not competitive. Further, because medicine is so expensive, it means there aren't going to be newcomers to the market who can shake thing up. It requires way too much startup capital to start a new insurance company. The agencies with the most negotiation power don't because it negatively affects their bottom line.
This is why there needs to be a real second option. A public option like medicare for all would be the way to go. Let everyone choose between either private insurance or public insurance. Then you'd actually see some real competition.
Insurance is really not the issue, it’s provider cost. And just the total cost entirely of the system of insanity. If you look closely into it there is no single (or few even) knobs you can tweak to fix the system. Not even Medicaid for all, at least as it’s currently designed.
No argument from me that insurance is not competitive enough. But they are almost all public corporations that are highly regulated so the numbers on profit and expense ratios are easy to get for yourself to prove the point. No need to take my, or anyone with an agenda word for it. Almost everyone wants a simple answer to a complex interdependent problem that does not have one.
If there was a single solitary answer of “what is the problem with US healthcare” I’d have to go with it being a principle agent problem. If everyone who consumed healthcare had to pay up front very few services would cost what they do. Even changing it so people were billed directly and then had to submit insurance claims later like how pet insurance or car insurance works would go a long ways. But even that doesn’t solve the problem entirely, as it leaves massive gaps. Second answer would be “administrative class bloat” like in all areas of the US today.
Single payer is certainly a major part of the answer, but in isolation it’d solve almost nothing and potentially make things even worse as all the inane cross-subsidy comes crashing down overnight.
Edit: the point is medical loss ratios, admin overhead, etc. is public information not hidden behind some private company firewall. The fact non profits haven’t captured 100% of the market by being crazily cheaper should be telling on its own.
Many of the largest health plans are non-profit, not publicly traded corporations. This includes most of the Blue Cross Blue Shield Association licensees as well as some other large payers such as EmblemHealth.
Blue Shield/Cross is a federation, and Emblem is regional.
The real players are big corps like United and CVS, who control the whole vertical of provider and payer. They own the doctors, the pharmacies, and the insurance.
Trying to understand why healthcare in the U.S. is so expensive is like trying to understand why building subway in New York is so expensive: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-.... The issues lend themselves to facile explanations ("insurance companies are greedy," "NYC's government is wasteful") but those are driven by ideology not analysis.
What we can say for certain is that heath insurance companies in the US stuff their pockets with tens of billions in profits each year and that Americans are paying far more while getting less for their money than other developed nations. I don't think those two things are unrelated.
Something around half of UnitedHealth Group (UHN) profits come from other business units that aren't directly related to UnitedHealthcare insurance plans. They have a huge software business under the Optum brand that would be one of the top 20 largest US tech companies if it was broken out separately.
U.S. healthcare spending is over $5 trillion a year. That’s $5,000 billion. So the “tens of billions in profits” you’re pointing to accounts for very little of what people spend on healthcare.
That’s what I mean when I refer to facile ideological reactions. For many people, “profits” are the problem, and they don’t care that health insurers on average are less profitable than Subway franchises. It’s just the mirror image of people who say the New York MTA is a disaster because the government is running it, and don’t care that governments in other countries manage to run cost-efficient train systems.
> they are almost all public corporations that are highly regulated so the numbers on profit and expense ratios are easy to get for yourself to prove the point
Big players like United just shuffle money around because they own the entire vertical market. Their insurance arm is regulated so they just move the money to to their service provider arms like Optum which are unregulated with uncapped profits.
> part of the healthcare system that is moderately competitive.
That’s only half the story though insurance companies also try and reject way more claims, cover fewer people, and are just harder to get money from than Medicare.
This means hospitals can’t afford to give them cheaper rates as they just require vastly more work from staff for the same procedure.
The industry isn’t blind to this effect, but has little reason to change.
Hospitals and clinics can only take so many Medicare patients as a ratio to private pay because it’s very well known that Medicare and Medicaid is often provided at below cost. It’s of course area and demographic dependent but as a rule any private clinic has a cap on these patients they will accept overall. Hospitals cannot cap it realistically speaking, so looking at clinics is a good proxy.
Private insurance subsidizes Medicare and Medicaid even after you add in admin overhead.
The MLR incentive question is one I'm digging into for a future issue. The short version: the ACA's 80/85% MLR floor was supposed to constrain overhead, but vertical integration changed the math. When UnitedHealth's Optum division provides services to UnitedHealthcare's members, those internal payments count as "medical expenses" for MLR purposes. The money stays in-house but reports as care delivery.
On the denial rate point: 15-17% initial denial rate, 80%+ overturned on appeal, but less than 1% of patients actually appeal. That gap between the overturn rate and the appeal rate is where the profit lives. If you deny 100 claims and only 1 patient appeals, you've effectively reduced payouts on 99 claims at the cost of processing 1 appeal. I'll have the numbers on this in a later issue.
All the other managed care organizations have similar 2% profit margins.
It is funny seeing complaints of excess profit margins from businesses earning 2%, that compete against non profits, from people on a forum composed of employees of tech businesses earning 20%+ profit margins. I wonder how much Epics’s profit margin is?
And then there is also pharmaceuticals, also earning double digit profit margins. And then the law firms in medical malpractice suits, who I imagine are not working for 2% profit margins either.
Yes but the Medicare and Medicaid reimbursement rates are below breakeven so cash and insurance rates have to be above provider breakeven. The main cost frictions are administrative costs for billing on both the insurance and provider sides.
That's true to an extent, but some provider organizations manage to survive with patient populations that are almost entirely Medicare / Medicaid. Many provider organizations are just badly managed and haven't taken steps to optimize their finances through automation or participation in value-based care programs.
They waste billions on fraudulent claims because they don't fund the program well enough to have compliance enforcement or auditing.
Also, I'm not going to trust a podcast owned and operated by Stacey Richter, who also just so happens to be the co-president of Aventria Health Group and QC-Health.
> They waste billions on fraudulent claims because they don't fund the program well enough to have compliance enforcement or auditing.
These are synonyms for having higher overhead, right? If you pay a billion dollars in claims with ten million dollars in administrative costs then your "administrative overhead" is 1%, even if half the claims are fraud. If you increase "administrative costs" to a hundred million to get rid of the fraud, in practice you just saved 410 million dollars but now your "administrative overhead" is up to 20%.
There's another reason. The harder you make it for a provider to get reimbursed for a service (in order to cut down on fraud), the more difficult it is for legitimate patients to access that service. Medicare patients are elderly. Many of them aren't able to chase after doctors to get the services they need.
I'm working on a project in an area of healthcare where there was massive Medicare fraud decades ago. Medicare now requires extensive documentation for each claim and the paperwork is so onerous that providers have exited the market and it's very, very difficult to access care.
Right, CMS plays whack-a-mole with Medicare claim fraud. When they catch on to a systemic pattern they clamp down in a way that creates extra burdens for everyone, and then the fraudsters move on to something else.
This isn't even close to true. Keep in mind that Medicare, together with Medicaid (which operates under much of the same administrative rules), account for nearly half of medical spending. So basically, if a provider doesn't want to play by their rules, they MUST deal with Medicare. That is, the government is nearly a monopsony in this industry.
There's a common, misleading, claim that Medicare is more efficient because they spend far less than commercial insurance on overhead like claims processing. This claim is true. But the impression that it gives is absolutely the opposite of reality. The reason that Medicare doesn't spend as much on admin is that they offload all of this work onto the providers. Every hospital in America has a "Medicare Reimbursement" team. A moderate-sized hospital is going to have something like 2 FTEs focusing just on the reimbursements from Medicare and Medicaid. And that's a lot more work than just filing the right forms for each case. There's a ton of additional work. Each spring they have to file a HUGE "Medicare Cost Report", requiring a couple of months of work to get all the data in place for it. (Source: my wife was "Director of Reimbursement" at various hospitals for quite a few years, before going into consulting.)
That Medicare Cost Report that I mentioned is, beyond a huge effort sink, the source of many other evils. Because of the amount of work that's needed to gather and collate all this data, hospitals naturally structure their Accounting around the way Medicare wants them to report. The thing is, that's largely orthogonal to the way a rational person would do cost accounting. The result is the common criticism about how widely varying the cost of a given specific line-item is between hospitals: they don't really know how much a given procedure costs because that's not how they track their expenses, so they apply some allocation heuristics, and every hospital does that a bit differently.
There are also various perverse incentives in the system. For example, Medicare is smart enough to know that it costs more to deliver care in NYC or SF and so forth. Every locale has a Cost Index that scales how much they expect to need to pay. This leads to hospitals needing to show that their expenses are higher so they should be classified into locale X rather than neighboring locale Y.
Another one my wife told me about her hospital: Medicare realized that a lot of UTIs were hospital-acquired, and they rationally said that they would no longer pay for UTI treatments unless the hospital could prove that they were not hospital acquired. Well, maybe that wasn't rational, because with Medicare/caid being such a huge portion of their business, they changed their policy to test for UTI for everyone at admission, so that they could furnish the proof demanded. Think of all that wasted lab work...
So no, Medicare is NOT more streamlined and efficient. It's absolutely, 180-degrees, the opposite of that.
> something like 2 FTEs focusing just on the reimbursements from Medicare and Medicaid
2FTE’s vs what?
The question isn’t is this free, the question is how large is the total staff including price negotiations, doctors, and IT time spent handling billing issues, and is Medicare more or less than 50% of the total.
I am ware of one hospital and 2 medical clinics where the difference is very much in favor of Medicare.
versus nothing. Hospitals don't have to maintain a whole team for UnitedHealth, or for Anthem, etc.
This is my point. Medicare cooks the books to look more efficient by offloading their administrative costs onto providers. Other payers can't do that because, even if huge, they don't operate at the same scale.
Think about it: we often hear on the news about disputes about contracts when a local hospital's agreement with some insurance company comes up for renewal. They play hardball, getting local news to run stories on how many people will be affected if they can't come to terms. But you'll never hear this in the context of Medicare/caid. Hospitals have leverage to negotiate with commercial payers, but not with the government.
Depending on the size of the health system it may not be a team of multiple FTEs but they absolutely do expend significant resources on managing differences between commercial payers. They all have different rules about covered services, step therapy, prior authorization, hospital admission, etc. Sometimes those differ significantly even between health plans offered by a single carrier.
This isn't really true anymore (if it was ever true). Providers are spending a huge amount of time dealing with prior authorizations and appeals for private insurance.
I work in this area and you're right that Medicare can require a huge amount of paperwork from providers. And a hospital will have far more than 2 FTEs for this (it's called Revenue Cycle Management).
2 FTEs vs a department. Most hospitals have entire departments to handle insurer coding and some even have departments just to handle insurer disputes.
Coding is a different layer. Everything needs coding, whether for gov't or commercial payers. So the folks doing this coding can't be separated out for commercial. In fact, it's kind of the opposite:
CPT codes (for procedures) - these are defined by AMA, but mandated by CMS (i.e., Medicare/caid). Because the gov't mandated them, the commercial payers adopted them too.
HCPCS codes (equipment and supplies) - defined by CMS.
ICD-10-PCS codes (hospital inpatient stuff) - defined by CMS.
Medicare has overhead, but you’re not saying whether it is more than commercial insurance. The admin expense/profit portion of commercial insurers also don’t take into account provider admin costs (not to mention the huge amount of time patients can deal with denials, appeals, etc.)
It's further the case, regarding Medicare expense ratios, that their admin costs are low relative to private insurance because the median private insurance customer incurs far lower medical costs, leaving admin as a higher fraction.
It can't be both: either insurers are incentivized to authorize as much care as possible so as to fit more money through the 20% opening, or they're incentivized to deny care to minimize their expenses. Which is it?
What do you mean elevators go up and down clearly someone only wants to go in one direction. If they are below 80% they want costs to increase, over 80% costs better decrease.
The ideal long term strategy is to drive everyone’s costs to go up slowly over time slightly faster than inflation. Adding administrative burden to medical institutions is a perfect way to achieve that, but clearly that never happens…
You're right that there's no single bad actor, and that's exactly the framing of this series. Each issue isolates one mechanism with one savings estimate. The 254% figure is RAND's. What I added is the HCRIS cost-to-charge analysis across 3,193 hospitals showing the variance by ownership type.
The surprise was nonprofit hospitals: median markup of 3.96x actual operating costs, versus 2.39x for for-profit and 1.87x for government hospitals. That's hard to square with the narrative that nonprofits deserve their tax exemptions ($28-37B/year) because they serve charitable purposes.
On the self-funded employer point — you're correct that self-funded plans have more negotiating latitude, and thousands of them already use reference pricing (capping hospital payments at a percentage of Medicare). That's actually the policy fix this analysis proposes. Montana Medicaid implemented it and saved $47.8M. The question is why it isn't the default.
What OP said is true. You’re forgetting that health insurers are just one organization in the corporate chart. They often work to own the providers as well to funnel money to parent corporations.
So if United is the insurer they’re owned by an umbrella, that umbrella takes 20% or less. However United makes special deals and steers people to providers owned by the Umbrella. So that the Umbrella makes more money as well. This is true for medicine as well. For example Cigna requires all maintenance medication be purchased through express scripts as a means to retain or increase profit.
United has a history of also squeezing organizations by forcing them into pre-payment review when they’re high volume. This causes the providers to basically not have no revenue for months on end until it gets sorted. Then they might get a chunk or settle out of court. Often they go bankrupt and are purchased by the umbrella.
In terms of Medicare/Medicaid another catch-22 is that insurance handles the claims for providers. The insurance can recode claims and pocket the difference without telling the provider. It’s on the provider to catch it.
There is a tremendous amount of dark money, shadow games, hidden corporate structures, Wyoming and NM LLCs with Anonymous owners, etc.
Insurance as a whole tries to own the entire feedback loop for healthcare. They don’t like you going out of their feedback loop.
>For example Cigna requires all maintenance medication be purchased through express scripts
Important note: Cigna owns Express Scripts. Today the biggest "insurance" companies are actually massive conglomerates that own the clinics, the doctors and the pharmacies. United = Optum. Aetna = CVS + Caremark. Humana = CenterWell. Elevance/Blue Cross/Anthem/Carelon. Centene = Envolve
Once a giant like United gets big enough in a city, say ~40% of the population, they lower the reimbursement rates for independent doctors and if the doctor refuses the contract, they are kicked out of network and lose 40% of their patients. Go bankrupt or sell to Optum.
Digi is also right about Medicare upcoding. It is a well-documented $$billions scam where Medicare Advantage insurers comb through patient records to add diagnostic codes making the patient look sicker on paper than they actually are so the government pays the insurer a higher flat rate for that patient.
Why wasn't it set up so the government is the insurer. Rather than 3rd partying it. It is akin to federal reserve using wells fargo to store their money.
Pharmaceuticals are a small component of overall US health spending. Upcoding is endemic across the entire system; it's endemic across the whole system. Ironically, the complaint you'd be making with upcoding under Advantage is that Medicare should be denying coverage to people; Advantage upcoding involves altering risk scores to authorize more care.
I’m well aware of the vertically integrated systems. But that’s not the entire market - just getting to slowly be more and more common.
Insurance as standalone entities are not much better or worse for total cost than these giant vertical monopolies. At least yet, thy are only recently becoming large enough to truly put the screws to people. Because insurance was not all that profitable made it prime targets for these sorts of shell game shenanigans.
It’s basically the point I was making. Fixing “insurance” isn’t a fix at all because the problem is far greater than just that layer of the onion. Costs are hidden and embedded and cross-subsidied to the point no one can unwind it without burning the entire thing to the ground. It’s grift from bottom to top. Aside from a few poor souls actually at the ground level who are still true believers trying to provide service to patients. And a lot of those are burning out. I think out of the 5 or 6 medical doctors I met while they were in medical school, only one is still practicing. They would now be late 30s to early 40s and in theory at the prime of their careers. Instead they got out as soon as medical school debt was paid off and moved onto other less stressful things. Another hidden cost in the shit-tier system rarely talked about.
I’m simply pushing back on the idea that the 20% medical loss ratio is the source of all (or even most) issues for the cost of healthcare or why insurance sucks so much to deal with. It’s nearly irrelevant.
> In the end employers are the ones largely paying and they are professional negotiators enough to put price pressure on insurance plans. 20% of $0 is $0.
That's assuming price is the only variable.
Suppose one insurance company is accepted by more providers, including ones that might be closer (but pay higher real estate costs) or have nicer rooms etc. Meanwhile employers are looking for cost/benefit rather than just cost. If they give employees a better insurance plan they could pay them less or provide less of some other benefit and still get people to work there.
So before the insurance company didn't really care if you got a $10,000 plan or a $20,000 plan if they both had a $2200 margin, or if anything would prefer the former because they make the same money with lower costs. The employer is likewise fairly ambivalent as long as the more expensive plan seems like it's buying something (even if the something is convenience/luxury). But now the insurance company isn't allowed to have a $2200 margin on the first plan and still is on the second, so that's what they market, and then what more employers choose, resulting in higher average costs.
> Insurance providers also rarely operate at the full freight 20% either way though.
There are only really two options, right? Either the market is actually competitive and then a margin cap has no effect because competition would prevent margins higher than that regardless and the rule should be gotten rid of as totally redundant, or the market is less than perfectly competitive and then it does something but the something is a bad perverse incentive to raise costs to cheat the rule and it should be gotten rid of as actively harmful.
They really aren’t. They package benefits to try to hit different price points. Obamacare accelerated consolidation of providers and most regions have a cartel of 2-4 health networks.
You've identified a real issue with cost-plus pricing. But there's more to it than that. Commercial insurers have to pay more than Medicare, for the very simple reason that Medicare's pricing terms are that they get a discount beyond whatever the lowest price is that you charge anyone for the same thing.
(Is it a 60% discount? No; a 150% margin has to be explained in other ways. But the phenomenon is real and important.)
It's a bit more complicated than that. First, most large health plans regulated under the Affordable Care Act are actually subject to an 85% minimum medical loss ratio. Some of the larger payers which also have their own providers as employees within the same parent corporation are able to shift money around with internal pricing agreements so that they make larger profits on the care delivery side.
But at the same time, the business is still pretty competitive with the employers and consumers who purchase policies or rent networks being price sensitive. Employers will switch carriers to get a significant cost savings so that holds down prices (and carrier profits) to an extent. Most large employers (and unions) are now self-funded so the "insurance" company isn't actually bearing much risk, they just set up a provider network and process the claims.
Most doctors are almost completely ignorant about the broader issues of healthcare financing and medical economics so take anything you hear from your friends with a grain of salt. (And to be fair, it's not something we should expect them to be experts in.)
Most insurance is funded by employers who would switch insurers if they feel they're getting screwed by them.
> So insurance companies spend more so they can collect higher premiums.
This part is still true though. Insurers want you to consume more healthcare, so they'll happily pay for your chiropractor, acupuncturist, acne treatment, and Chanel gift bag [1]. Patients are happy with their benefits. Employers are happy with increasing employee retention in a tax advantaged way. Insurers are happy with the profit. Of course, you aren't going to see much health improvement from this though.
>So insurance companies spend more so they can collect higher premiums. That's how they make more money. >
If this is correct, then how come there are so many complaints about insurance denying payment for healthcare or the hoops they make patients and doctors jump through for pre authorizations?
If the path to more profit was spend more money, then there would be no reason to question a doctors’ orders? Nor threaten doctors and hospitals with leaving the network if they don’t agree to lower prices?
Yet, one often hears about so and so plan will not have so and so hospital system in network unless they come to an agreement.
> If this is correct, then how come there are so many complaints about insurance denying payment for healthcare or the hoops they make patients and doctors jump through for pre authorizations?
Because those anecdotes get reader and viewer engagement. Charts comparing how much U.S. insurers pay on average for common procedures compared to, say, the UK NHS, don’t drive forward the narrative.
You should interrogate the media sources you consume and ask why you’re fed so many stories like that, and investigate what the real data is. A few years ago my friend got a continuous glucose monitor for Type 2 diabetes. I looked at the coverage polices for continuous glucose monitoring (for Type 2) for my insurer and some of the other big ones. Turns out that most US insurers, Medicare, and Medicaid in 45 states+DC cover continuous glucose monitors for people who have type 2 even those that don’t use insulin. At the time, most Canadian provincial systems didn’t cover the technology except for Type 1 or people who take insulin. UK NHS was worse, covering it only for Type 1, or Type 2 with certain conditions (such as you’d otherwise need to do 8 or more pin prick tests a day). https://www.diabetes.org.uk/about-diabetes/looking-after-dia...
You should take your own advice and widen your media sources.
Yes, you only get a continuous glucose monitor for free if you really need it on the NHS. If you want one otherwise you need to spend $100. It's not going to bankrupt you.
That’s the price for one monitor You need to buy a new monitor every 10-15 days. And your point about my media sources doesn’t make sense. As stated, I researched the coverage of continuous glucose monitoring because my friend got prescribed one.
The point isn’t that the UK NHS should cover CGM. I think they shouldn’t; it’s a waste of money unless you really need one. My point was about why the media pays so much attention to denials of coverage while you don’t hear about the over-coverage. You can’t go by the anecdotes. Talking about insurance covering unnecessary procedures doesn’t generate clicks.
Complaints about denied claims or prior authorization requirements should generally be directed at employer HR departments. Most HN users in the USA probably have employer-sponsored group health plans, and often those are self-funded where the insurance company doesn't actually bear any risk but just administers the plan. Commercial insurers would be happy to sell plans that pay every claim that comes in at 100% with zero denials. It would be less work for them. But naturally employers don't want to pay for that, so the HR departments have the insurance carriers impose more restrictive coverage rules to hold down medical expenses.
> Commercial insurers would be happy to sell plans that pay every claim that comes in at 100% with zero denials. It would be less work for them. But naturally employers don't want to pay for that, so the HR departments have the insurance carriers impose more restrictive coverage rules to hold down medical expenses.
This is not my experience as a buyer of health plans on healthcare.gov, or as a buyer of health plans as an employer (where the employer is not self insuring). The prior authorizations and denials happen all the same.
Additionally, the premiums are the same between employers’ self insured plans and healthcare.gov plans, so the coverage must be similar.
>In 2024, individual market insurance premiums averaged $540 per member per month, slightly below the average $587 per member per month premium for fully-insured employer coverage.
The idea that health insurers can simply spend more to earn more is not passing the smell test.
Your experience is irrelevant. Insurance carriers have some standard default policies but they'll write whatever custom policy that a group buyer is willing to pay for.
> Commercial insurers would be happy to sell plans that pay every claim that comes in at 100% with zero denials.
And yet I have never seen one of these after buying insurance in 3 different states.
Again, the grandparent claim was that insurance companies can increase profits simply by increasing their expenses. Yet there is no evidence of this, and the fact that everyone has to deal with approval and denial of healthcare coverage means it cannot be true.
You're really missing the point. Have you ever been in charge of employee benefits for a large group buyer? Obviously such plans aren't available to individual consumers but commercial carriers will absolutely customize products for larger customers.
> The actual reason commercial insurers pay more is that's the only way to can make more profits.
>Because of Obamacare requiring 80% of the money they collect to be spent, the insurance companies just get to keep 20%. So insurance companies spend more so they can collect higher premiums. That's how they make more money.
dmitrgyr wrote this:
> Ding Ding Ding. We have the correct answer. And this was a predicted consequence of that profit cap.
These statements indicate there should exist an insurance plan with a policy to pay for anything and everything. It does not matter what large self insuring employers choose to buy, as there are still significant number of people covered by non employer insured health plans.
This is the same problem with cost-plus contracts in the military. In theory, capping profit is meant to reduce profiteering. But in practice, if your profit is fixed at 6% of the cost to built a jet fighter then you're incentivized to make that jet fighter as expensive as possible. The way to maximize profit under a cost-plus regime is to maximize the cost.
I will piggy back off of your comment because I was going to say a very similar thing. In my state, electric utilities are guaranteed a rate of return on investment of approximately 12%, if I remember correctly. And so there's a lot of incentive for build out and maintenance that's high in total dollar amount and high in volume of work done. In some ways it's the system working as designed but the "cap" can incentivize erroneous build out, as you noted in the jet fighter example.
There's not necessarily a difference because they overlap on the venn diagram. The returns to the shareholders go up the more you build out, the benefits and performance face diminishing returns. Different utilities around the country get different scores for reliability and infrastructure integrity, because a dollar spent by one utility on one grid doesn't necessarily have the same impact as a dollar spent by another.
Absolutely not. The way to spend as much money as possible is to do intentionally inefficient repairs (e.g. last minute/reactive). The providers gain from grid unreliability since by causing problems, they get to justify spending money to "fix" them.
Depends on if the investments were in the right stuff or not. Overbuilt sounds great, so long as it’s overbuilt in capacity and reliability.
If those were malinvestments instead it’s simply throwing money away for not even a theoretical “someday” return. Plenty of ways to look busy while spending massive amounts of capital.
Generally agreed in principle though. Investment in the grid is pathetic almost everywhere in the US and has been for generations.
It's about threading the needle between a well funded grid, and an over engineered grid. There's a point where diminishing returns makes investment greater than that threshold wasteful relative to opportunity cost of spending that tax money on different public services.
This isn't the whole story. There's a lot of "legal" self-dealing going on where insurance companies essentially own providers and then pay the providers which allows the insurance companies to circumvent the medical loss ratios.
I remember consulting for a healthcare company in .... 2003. Very short assignment so I never got deep into it, but anyways my consulting company made me read up an in house guide about ALR and MLR (Administrative or Medical Loss Ratios). Obamacare or not, such constraints already exists. Maybe they varied by state, maybe there were other loopholes such as not supporting pre-existing conditions, but IIRC there were restraints on pure profits, so even then the same perverse incentives existed. More revenue you can get more profits.
I am going by very old memory of a few days/weeks of work, but it will be good for a medical system historian to chime in.
There are other structural issues at work that you see across US government procurement generally, Medicare just being one example.
The unit costs of doing business with the US government are higher than with private companies even after accounting for economies of scale. The US government also requires that they pay the lowest price. Consequently, unit economics are usually worse when dealing with the government than when dealing with private companies.
The maths often don't math but the law doesn't care. Most inexplicable and bizarre pricing you see related to government procurement are structural tricks vendors use to indirectly fix the unit economics across their customers while technically staying compliant with bad regulations. Everyone else who is not the government is collateral damage of that byzantine theater.
Ideally, we would all drop the pretense that the US government deserves the lowest price just because they are very large, instead letting it reflect the true overhead cost.
I'd argue it's a subsidy/incentive problem. Since every subsidy works by raising a cost somewhere which is used to subsidize a cost elsewhere, I'm inclined to believe in the Bennett hypothesis. Our government mostly subsidizes demand, and does little to incentivize productivity/outcomes. You see high prices everywhere the government funnels money: in education, healthcare, even the military - as where's the incentive to lower costs if the government is on the hook and will fund it no matter the cost?
The problem is the market isn’t competitive due to hidden pricing and also anti competitive aspects like insurance. The supply of doctors is itself artificially low. There is a lot more regulation needed than something as simple as Obamacare.
That's not why prices continue to increase. They can't just let prices skyrocket to pad their pockets. If they try, government regulators will block premium hikes, regular people will ditch them for cheaper competitors, and big businesses that pay premiums from cash will fire them for not keeping medical bills lower.
> regular people will ditch them for cheaper competitors
I love the particular irony of people who advocate for regulations then attempt refutation of free market theory for what is already unquestionably and objectively not a free market.
You can really just say anything and get upvoted on this website.
If this were true then private insurers would have paid comparable rates to Medicare prior to the ACA passing, and that's just not the case. This fact has been a fixture of the US healthcare system since the creation of Medicare.
My understanding is that there are a number of reasons why commercial insurance companies pay more. A big one is that Medicare has enormous pricing power because people on Medicare are a huge segment of the population and also the segment that consumes the most healthcare services. Your local healthcare system can't NOT take Medicare. They're effectively stuck with the reimbursement rates that Medicare sets. On the other hand, healthcare systems have a ton of power in their local markets. A healthcare system can afford to not be in network for a particular insurer, but if that insurer loses access to the biggest healthcare system in a particular market, it can be devastating for them. A major employer is not going to be happy if their executives have to all change doctors because the big local hospital system is no longer in network.
I like this. It'd be great to see such a table of the key issues with proposed solutions, to highlight how the waste isn't an insurmountable impossibility to solve. Having said that, federal lobbying by the healthcare industry was $750 million in 2024 [1], and this is the blocker that needs to be addressed first to be able to enact change.
We rarely discuss the primary source of health care cost differences in the United States -- US doctors get paid a lot more than elsewhere. I haven't seen a credible proposal to address that. Most of the salary difference can be blamed on deliberately created shortages of doctors in many specialities. Not enough medical school slots (horror stories among my kid's friends of not getting accepted) and then also shortages of residencies that allow foreign trained doctors to work in the US. The only change in recent memory is replacing some primary care physician services with nurse practitioners.
Idk why but I feel the need to add an empty “co-sign” comment. It is 100% this and I have so many stories from friends who are doctors and nurses that back up every detail.
One note: the doctors won’t agree or want to hear this, as they too are human, but listen to how they talk about nurses. Hit me once I had both a CRNA (advanced nursing degree in anesthesiology) and an anesthesiologist friend
Edit: glad I did add an empty cosign, right after replying, the parent is now downvoted to gray. And gets it much, much, better info than any other comment, and I read all of them. Last thing I’ll throw out to back it up is, check into who decides how many seats there are at med schools. Can’t remember the exact name but it’s basically the doctors union / professional organization. AMA?
I really don’t think doctor salaries are the primary difference when they make up less than 10 % of health care costs:
> However, new research by Stanford health economist Maria Polyakova and colleagues — using unique data on physician income — shows that physicians’ personal earnings account for only 8.6 percent of national health-care spending
That’s the thing about American health care costs. We pay so much more than everyone else, but there’s no obvious single thing that costs more, or even a few factors together. It’s a ton of different things all adding up. Which means it’s very hard to fix, because there are so many different things you’d have to fix.
Doctors are only part of the problem. Nurses and all of the other skilled positions also all suck up huge amounts of money because there are shortages of all of them.
It was bad even before COVID, it’s even worse now. There are tons of regulations prohibiting the significant increase in creating new doctors and nurses (and air traffic controllers, but that’s a different but remarkably similar story).
Limits on new providers, and tons of corrupt regulation keeping people from opening new medical schools, clinics, and hospitals.
A ton of it is simple supply and demand - and the supply side is capped. Go to a place with a functioning competitive market and the prices (and wages) are a fraction of what they are in the US.
Again like doctors, nurse wages aren’t a major factor in the discrepancy between US healthcare costs and elsewhere. They are a factor, in a death by a thousand cuts situation.
In a source posted by another commenter, their wages are accountable for 5% of the difference.
I also don’t think it’s accurate to say regulations are what’s prohibiting an increase in nurses. They don’t have a government imposed mechanism like residency funding that creates a bottleneck like the one in medical training.
We have a nurse shortage because we have an aging population increasing demand, it’s a tough job, and people are leaving the profession.
Medicare prices are too low to operate on. They generally factor in the bare minimum or slightly less for the variable costs of a procedure but severely under value the fixed costs of providing the same procedure. So those costs largely get pushed to commercial payors as those are the only ones who can shoulder it.
There’s plenty of arguements about waste and executive compensation but when I was a healthcare CFO we had our financials separated where I could see individual hospital performance and all the executive/corporate stuff was separate and it still was an issue as basic capex was hard to keep up with in a hospital that had a low % of commercial patients.
Sure you’re not thinking of Medicaid? Medicare was generally pretty good for reimbursement. When my wife treated Medicaid patients, she often lost money on the cost of the supplies used to treat them, let alone rent and paying the staff etc etc. Most doctors who see Medicaid patients do it as basically pro bono. Some figured out how to game the system with economies of scale but it’s nearly impossible do do and maintain a decent standard of care.
But Medi care was right with the commercial insurers on reimbursement.
Medicaid is usually a big loss for hospitals. It’s just a cost of doing business and another reason why someone else has to pay more. It’s completely a subsidy essentially. This is why certain areas only have a county hospital, it’s likely the same area that is a food desert and has no retail banks, the simple truth is too high of a Medicaid mix will quickly sink a for profit hospital.
Medicare is as I described. Every specialty and procedure has its quirks though, some even make a killing on Medicare and not commercial but the hospital kind of represents a portfolio and the overarching economics in aggregate favor the commercial insurance. I’m guessing your wife’s specialty had decent Medicare rates but it’s not always true.
There’s even some private insurance which is effectively Medicare that has different reimburse ranges (Medicare advantage plans).
Executives like to lament the lose money on Medicare but I never really saw it that way. If you look at it isolated, sure it’s true. But if you look at it as a portfolio where your fixed costs are covered by another cohort, then it’s a huge volume to add and make money at the contribution profit line. You just have to be careful not to run fixed costs as a percentage of total revenues or something like that. The extra volume Medicare brings to a hospital or network of hospitals also has tremendous negotiating power for pharma, medical supplies and devices, etc.
> Executives like to lament the lose money on Medicare but I never really saw it that way.
We're in the totally opposite boat. We actually prefer Medicare patients vs private insurance not only because of the reimbursement, but the way in which they reimburse us (one lump sum vs visit-by-visit auth that requires manpower to manage).
Some of the requirements can be onerous, but on the whole, they're easier to plan for than the private stuff.
You’re not a hospital then. I see this with some specialties or types of providers. I’ve also seen it do complete 180. As in, Medicare is high reimbursement for a decade or two allowing a specialty to proliferate, then one day they rug pull the rates and the specialty is scrambling because they’ve not been running managed care part of their practice (the part that negotiates with commercial plans). It’s a huge headache all around and I do agree Medicare is easy once established.
Generally speaking Medicaid is worse than Medicare for provider reimbursement rates. In some states, Medicaid plan members are effectively uninsured because they can't find a provider within reasonable distance who will take new patients.
> But Medi care was right with the commercial insurers on reimbursement.
As I said in another comment, I'm with a provider and Medicare is easily one of our best payors. We actually have contracts with private insurers that say they have to reimburse us at least 80-85% of what Medicare would. They also give us the money up front, with a public formula that we can count on vs. a hidden formula that requires us to go back for more auth (and thus needs more people to manage).
> The US spends ~$14,570 per person on healthcare. Japan spends ~$5,790 and has the highest life expectancy in the OECD. That gap is roughly $3 trillion per year.
The difference in life expectancy will be influenced by multiple factors and may have more to do with diet and lifestyle than with healthcare.
Japan also spends less per capita than the UK, France or Germany. The US spends a lot more than any of those so the US system is bad value for money.
We in Germany copied a lot of the stupid stuff from America (including the stupid billing system for inpatient stays), so it's not that surprising that our system is also bad value for money.
PS: Outcomes here are not worse than those of rich people in the US, because I know some idiots will claim this to cope
Germany didn't copy the US - they just happen to share similar roots.
Both historically had private hospital systems, and just so happen to implement pension/employer-based insurance programs very early on. German's just evolved in one direction and the US evolved in the other.
We copied the DRG reimbursement System from the US.
And no, we didn't had a historically significant share of private hospital systems, those came with the introduction of the DRG System, which forced many city/church owned hospitals into privatisation.
Before that, they had a "Fixed Price per Night" System, which also was a bit stupid, before that they got reimbursed their cost.
Actually Germany is a lot better value for money than the US. The cost (either absolute or as a percentage of GDP) is similar to the UK or France, and from what I have been told by people who have lived in both countries, the German system is better than the British.
Whats your point, US healthcare is ridiculously expensive to detriment of all US citizens sans those working for health insurance conglomerates. Any objective data you pick will show this, no need for strawmen.
They make more than they would in Japan. But people can make $0 in any country. Regardless, part-time Walmart greeters are fortunately not paying full price for health insurance in the US.
This feels like a misleading ratio, it's just saying the cost is the same in per capita terms but says nothing about the absolute cost or more importantly cost as a percentage of income, which matters for the majority of people in the denominator of the GDP per capita calculation.
This is called "purchasing power parity". There's an official index for it, as well as ad hoc measures like the Economist Big Mac Index.
To some extent it's circular: the US has a higher number of GDP because it spends more on healthcare. The broken leg version of the broken window fallacy.
This is an excellent point. Another comment pointed out that the gap in median salary is not as great as the gap in per capita GDP. Depending on the causes this and lower prices may mean Japanese are better off then Americans - e.g. if there is greater self-supply within households that would not be captured by GDP.
I suspect you would see the exact same trend comparing Japan and the U.S. in transit, education, and many other services. The U.S. spends more per capita to get less.
The US is a wealthier country and wages are higher here than Japan.
The median equivalised household disposable income of a US household is over twice that of a household in Japan.
This is one of many reasons why it’s so misleading to compare prices across countries in a vacuum. All of the people doing the work for those education, transportation, and other services and all of their inputs aren’t going to work for Japan-equivalent pay when they’re living in the United States.
In domains like healthcare, education and transportation, the cost is primarily labour. A wealthier country pays its workers more, which gets passed down in higher prices to its consumers. And, while healthcare and education do not benefit from economies of scale, transportation does, so the denser population gets cheaper transportation per capita.
That 6% number isn't even close to accurate. There are many other very expensive chronic conditions that are downstream of obesity including type-2 diabetes, heart failure, hypertension, MSK injuries, etc. We are digging our graves with our teeth.
Although I tend to think we overwork the working class such that they have no energy to keep up their health, so this would basically be taxing them because they're poor in many cases.
Social reasons it would never work. I hate to mention anything race related online but simple truth is America has complicated history and African Americans are 30% more likely to be obese than White Americans and also earn approximately 60% of income that whites earn. A fat tax, especially one that properly allocated the cost burden to the individual, would erode race relations.
fwiw the “tax” in Japan is not paid by the individual, and generally taxing the behavior via e.g sugar taxes rather than the outcome has worked better without much public outcry after the fact
Black population in the US is still concentrated in neighborhoods formed by overt racism and segregation and same neighborhoods tend to be food desert where no healthy or even fresh options exists. Even if we taxed just the bad food, the lack of options and mobility that higher income might provide, basically means it’s something that would be seen as targeted. Not to mention, people will draw the most racist perception no matter how carefully you crafted the tax because race relations are always unfortunately weak and these correlations are being forced/drawn.
It’s what all of Asia does and it’s very effective. Make people’s weight their primary problem until they resolve it. It’s not like it is some unchangeable attribute that can’t be fixed through self control and discipline. The shaming is just unsolicited motivation that works. I feel sad if people are made fun of for attributes they can’t change.
If everyone could control their weight via simply willing themselves to have more self-control, then nobody would be fat.
Self-control is, ironically, not usually within one’s self control.
Most people don’t contemplate very deeply about the gap between their will and their behavior. I’m extremely focused on self-determination and it’s absolutely astounding (and irritating) to me how little control I have over my actions relative to the control that circumstances have over me.
Your attitude about the matter is common, and seems like plain old common sense. It’s also dead wrong.
The Japanese system is amazing. Cheap drugs, cheap dentistry, no wait times and reimbursements for all kinds of things (government covered more than 100% of childbirth cost - yes we got more back than we paid). But the best part IMO is the emphasis on preventative medicine. My wife and I get annual checkups which cover a whole range of things including screening for various kinds of cancer.
Try seeing a doctor in Japan as a foreigner. Just a simple consult costs $300 USD or so, and it goes up from there. It's actually a rather expensive system.
This is absolutely not true. I pay the equivalent of about $40 for X-rays and blood tests. A simple consultation is about $15, if that. I recently got diagnosed with asthma, and the whole set of tests plus a month of medicine came out to about 6000 yen, which I suppose is $40.
The only reason you would pay that much is if you're visiting a private no-insurance clinic and not using insurance. And private clinics pretty much only exist to prey on people who identify as expats and make zero attempt at learning non-English languages, aside from a few exceptions (certain speciality dentists, plastic surgery, anonymous STD treatment, some cancers).
The whole debate is about what insurance companies are paying for those services, right? It's when one walks in without insurance that you see the true cost of the service.
> The only reason you would pay that much is if you're visiting a private no-insurance clinic and not using insurance
What alternatives does a tourist have? If Japan truly had cheaper procedures, it would see a huge uptick in medical tourism. There's no doubt that Japan has state-of-the-art facilities and treatment options, comparable to the US. It's no surprise that costs are comparable too.
But also age-related care is by far the largest share of medical care costs, and Japan has no lack of very old people. Being unhealthy also often reduces the amount of procedures someone is eligible to receive. Despite the blame people throw on unhealthy people for medical costs, they ironically often cost less because of the reduced care and lower lifespan which cuts out a significant amount of age-related healthcare costs. One could argue dieing at 60 instead of 90 is a big loss socially and personally, but overall financially it is a benefit.
It "may be other than health care" but most (all?) other modern nations on multiple continents in multiple cultures spend less percent GDP on healthcare with longer life expectancy than the US
"The discovery of Kato's remains sparked a search for other missing centenarians lost due to poor recordkeeping by officials. A study following the discovery of Kato's remains found that police did not know if 234,354 people over the age of 100 were still alive".
> The difference in life expectancy will be influenced by multiple factors and may have more to do with diet and lifestyle than with healthcare
Less than 5% of Japanese are obese (BMI >30) compared with 36% of Americans, additionally 1 in 10 Americans are severely obese (BMI>35) whereas the number in Japan is negligible.
The US' refusal to move to a single-payer system, while refusing to accept a world where poor people just die if they can't afford healthcare, creates a lot of deeply weird side effects.
For a country that prides itself on CapItAlIsM, U.S. healthcare is the farthest thing from it.
- Doctors and hospitals don't compete on price
- Prices aren't just opaque, they are unknowable
- Shopping around is not possible
- Insurer incentive is to maximize billing (cost). They pass along cost as increased premiums to an employer. Employer passes along increased costs to employee as below-inflation wage increases
Capitalism doesn’t work well for goods with inelastic demand. Every other developed country understands this and has a nationalized system. The only reason we don’t have universal healthcare is basically unlucky flukes.
> The only reason we don’t have universal healthcare is basically unlucky flukes.
You think its a fluke and not intentional corruption of the system? These companies pays both parties a lot so nobody will ever fix this, that isn't a fluke that is just plain old corruption.
Voters don’t want universal healthcare. There is some lobbying, but an entire party’s voters are composed of people who only care about taxes and ensuring that those less than them do not benrfit from wealth redistribution.
This is why even the meager amount of wealth redistribution we got (which was really young to old and not wealthy to poor) came about due to a fluke 6 months in 2009 that one party had 60 senate votes, and 58 or so votes supported a taxpayer funded option, but 42 did not, so the taxpayer funded option did not make it into the final bill.
No debate about the viability of Medicare-For-All is made in good faith, at this point. The only valid debates are about implementation. No one should entertain any move conversations about whether we should go to a single-payer system, only how we should.
Why? I’m in favor of reform and making our system more like other developed nations. But single payer isn’t the only way it’s done, not even the most common way.
I think this is a political and economic problem rather than a technological one.
I cannot think of a more important skill than surgery to continue training humans to do and to be wary of AI robotics replacing. Sure, some surgeries could likely be automated, but the entire point of specialist surgeons is to make choices and act in a timely manner in ambiguous situations with extremely high stakes.
What happens when the robot messes up? What happens when the internet is down, or the hospital is operating under abnormal circumstances? How do you teach, train, and collaborate with human medical workers and caregivers in a world where surgeons have been replaced by robots?
Most of the excess costs for healthcare and surgery aren't the humans doing the work. I think there's a lot of other areas we can optimize first, chief among those in healthcare being the cost structure around private businesses and insurers bloating the bill with administrative costs. There's a reason every other developed nation has a single-payer healthcare system and better outcomes, and I don't think an AI breakthrough is the only plausible solution to improving costs in the US. In fact, under the current system, an AI breakthrough in medicine would likely hurt the workforce more than it would improve costs.
2/3 of the costs are already wasted. Even if your robot is cheaper, the provider will hire more lawyers, admins, facilities staff, etc to keep the budget growing. Prices have been going up 15% yoy for 20 years do you think that will stop?
If you ever want to "sanewash" healthcare spending in the US, this random guy stood up an entire website to argue that per-capita healthcare spending in the US is more or less in line with expectations based on per-capita income:
TL;DR: As people/countries get richer, a larger share of their money goes towards consumption. It's not just that Americans pay more for the same procedures (sometimes they do, sometimes it's just sticker prices) but we consume more healthcare the more money we make. So it skews costs up disproportionally. That wealth also enables chronic health and lifestyle problems that are expensive in their own right.
I'm not sure I'd buy the theory entirely, but it's very well argued and as a null hypothesis it makes a lot of sense.
My personal experience is that people in the US feel much more entitled to consume medical services than people in the country I came from (UK). They are richer, but there's a cultural difference too.
But USA isn't the richest country on earth yet why do they spend the most?
Edit: I recognize that post now, he uses a special metric "actual individual consumption", which adds healthcare consumed by people as income. So the more expensive healthcare is, the more "actual individual consumption" you will have in the country. That is not the normal GDP metric, but using that special metric USA is on top since healthcare consumed there is so expensive.
Not to hold the commercial insurers' balls here, but if I were a doctor, I'd probably demand more from them. The patient age distribution is not uniform. Most patients are going to be old. If medicare gives me peanuts, I just have to deal with it, for if I don't accept whatever crumbs medicare sends my way, I no longer have a practice. If a private insurer tries to throw me peanuts -- especially when that insurer's customers only make up a percent or two of my practice -- I can easily tell them where to shove those peanuts, so they had better pay well.
Agreed. As a spouse of a specialist doctor in the US, average folks don't include doctors when they blame the exorbitant prices of the US healthcare. Sure, big pharma, insurance companies, hospital admins and everyone in between play a part in this big profit-making machine.
But doctors (a lot of them, not all) are complicit in this healthcare complex. American Medical Association is one of the top lobbying groups in D.C. They gate-keep the production of US doctors artificially low by making the candidates go through longer years of education (4 years of college before another 4 years of med school is an overkill for most doctors) compared to other developed nations, resulting in high compensations for doctors AND longer wait-time for patients (due to doctor shortage). They also put up regulation barriers and it requires a lot of certification and exams to become a doctor, so whoever becomes a doctor has the best interest to keep the system (status quo) going.
Average US doctor gets paid a lot more than their counterparts in other developed nations.
The AMA may cause some problems but you can't reasonably blame them for this one. They are not a regulatory or accreditation body. State medical boards control provider certification. Some universities have combined BS / MD programs that cut education time down to 6 years.
Doctors are motivated, intelligent and sometimes self-interested. By no means are all of them against it but like any party there are plenty who unabashedly oppose increased accessibility to their profession in favor of increasing their own value/pay.
I agree. congress actually caps the number of residency slots, which is agreed by many to be the ultimate bottleneck for the amount of doctors produced each year. There are plenty of people willing and well-qualified to go through medical school and become a doctor.
I recently travelled to Vietnam for dental work, it's really shocking how easy to it to shop around when dentists actually publish their price lists online for easy comparison/perusal. In my native country, dentists rarely if ever publish prices online, and it's hard to get prices over the phone.
If hospitals could be forced to publish price lists, it would be game changing, allowing patients to shop and compare quality/prices.
But at a consumer level it's still quite difficult to predict what your total out-of-pocket expense will be for the same course of treatment at two different facilities.
Oh wow. Appreciate the correction. I wonder what improvements in price transparency Trump has in mind. Perhaps it's that website in the parent comment.
In the Netherlands dental service prices are set by the government [1]. Under 18 are universally covered by basic health insurance; for adults average dental for regular work + emergency is 30/month.
Does anyone here remember how health care was delivered before medicare and medicaid was enacted in 1965? It was not pretty. Prices were low then because it was all private pay and charity. Why do you think so many hospitals are named after saints? The church made a significant contribution to running healthcare. But when the govt got involved in 1965, the MBAs started salivating. Now we have a system that is built around govt style procurement that we cannot afford. As our population ages, as salaries continue to remain flat, we will have hard choices to make.
I recently had a preventive CT angiogram and the cash price was $500 and the price with insurance was going to be $1000. The system we are in makes no sense at all.
Firey take, but health insurers are not the problem they are made out to be. They're on your team and benefit from lower prices just as much as you do. They don't make any money either, don't argue with me, buy their stocks if you are so convinced and see how that goes over.
Health care providers carry immense blame. It's full of passionless people in it for the outsized paychecks, who once inside will just seek whatever local minimum to stay employed.
Exactly, ask anyone in a job for the money how their week was.
Not saying nursing is stress free, or every nurse is bad, but like tech companies in 2021, it's full of directionless people who pushed through the cert program to get paid $50/hr with $100/hr weekend shifts and be disgruntled with you that you are making them do work.
I doubt that "directionless" people would put up with those working conditions, and many leave the sector after a few years, simply because they burn out. Nearly no one works 100% long-term, just because it's too much too.
Perhaps unlike Germany, in the US, people in those positions will not be able to come close to earning what they earn if they leave. Probably only half at best. A medical cert doesn't translate to much else besides the cert.
So like you mentioned, it's very difficult and grueling work, and people (in the US at least) get trapped because of the money. Passionless souls doing something they hate because they'll lose their upscale home and Mercedes if they quit.
I doubt that they hate what they do, it's just the shitty working conditions that render you unempathic and cynical.
Most of them care very much about what they do, and give everything they can for the patients. Otherwise they would have quit a long time ago.
(I've had to do a 3-month nursing internship as part of my medical studies, it's mandatory in Germany)
Better staffing makes a day and night difference. I've experienced it first-hand as a doctor. The more overworked you are, the more cynical and unempathic you get.
After a weekend or some time off, it's already much better
In other countries with better staffing (Switzerland or Austria), it's a also very noticeable how much better the mood and morale is of the staff.
Nurses in Germany could never afford a Mercedes or an upscale home, but they would also probably make less, switching jobs. It's not that they don't love their job, they just can't take it anymore. You also rarely see old nurses for that reason.
Well then, I am glad Germany figured out better pricing for healthcare. If the pay is middling and the work hard, you end up with mostly committed workers, because others don't enter the field with dollar signs in their eyes.
I hope you see that my point isn't that nursing is easy, my point is that (in the US) the pay is very high and the barrier to entry is moderate. So it becomes a magnet for people who just want to make money. This becomes even more true for med tech jobs, where you can blast through a cert in a year, and land a $30/hr job pretty quickly. That's about 50% more money than people typically in that education class earn.
> health insurers...'re on your team and benefit from lower prices just as much as you do
You're missing a very, very, very important piece here.
Which is that the lowest price of all is to deny treatment entirely.
They are not on your team, they are the opposite team. Their revenue is basically fixed, at the level of your premiums. But the more health care they pay for you to receive, the less profit they make. That's just arithmetic.
This is why there are so many horror stories of people being denied necessary treatment, or having to fight for months and years to get their treatment actually paid for. Insurance providers are incentivized to do their absolute best at taking your money and then not paying for care, through every sort of technicality and "mistake" and arbitrary judgment and limit they can come up with.
They still do, because that's a minimum. If they have to spend 80% of premiums on medical care, then they make a lot more profit by spending just that mandated 80%, as opposed to 85% or 90%. Which they can achieve by denying claims. That's the direct financial incentive.
The several+ times in my life I've had to sort out billing issues, the health "insurance" agents have been helpful and friendly, stating what bills should be in no uncertain terms, even offering to conference call with billing departments to get things resolved, etc... Meanwhile provider billing departments routinely try to defraud me, even going so far as to bully me to pay those fraudulent amounts, don't follow up on things (eg filing claims) that are their responsibility and that they've said they will take care of, and generally make their problems into my problems.
This certainly isn't a defense of health "insurance" companies though! I just think they're better modeled as Lovecraftian horrors animated by paperwork and compelling the creation of ever more paperwork to feed on, rather than money-grubbing cheapskates as the pop-political narrative goes. And the approaches for fixing one are much different than the approaches for fixing the other.
If health insurers are on my team why do they blatantly lie about their network coverage to me? Why do they list providers as in-network, when the providers consider themselves out of network?
Why aren't the executives of these insurers shilling ghost networks not in prison for mail fraud?
Having worked in medicine, I agree about providers. People who probably got in it to help people burn out immediately and become like the rest of us looking for the best paycheck with a tolerable workplace.
Insurance companies make plenty of money though. Cigna makes $7-8B per year and pays a decent dividend.
There's so much culturally different here that blaming just the differences in the system of health care is effectively meaningless.
Yearly physical exams are much more thorough in Japan. Unless you are optimally fit, you will be prescribed lifestyle changes to make and there is a strong expectation that you will work hard on these. Your employer will be involved. There is _tremendous_ social pressure if you are overweight.
Healthy food options are ubiquitous there with healthy and cheap meals available 24/7. Combini food certainly has bad options but nothing compared to American fast food or the American diet generally.
There are other health problems that are significantly overrepresented in Japan compared to the western world. Alcohol, smoking and stress-related illnesses. Liver & Kidney diseases. Peptic ulcers, GI problems in general.
I buy that the locus of American overspending is in fees charged by providers (my understanding is that a further principle component of that spending is in end-of-life care).
The problem, though, with going after pharma costs, and pharma benefit managers is that pharma is a relatively small component of overall spending; it's less than 10%. That is to say, you could make all pharmaceuticals entirely free, and we'd get at best a 10% discount on what we pay. I don't think any of us would be satisfied with that!
This is data from the most recent (as of last year) CMS NHE:
The 9.2% figure is pharma's direct share of NHE, but drugs are a net-positive externality. Cheap statins can stave off cardiac surgeries, GLP-1 can stave off bariatric surgeries, etc. It's ridiculous to conclude we would only save 9.2% on costs--this is not zero-sum.
No comment on drug pricing and its incentives, the existence of America's prescription drug markets drives the new innovative drugs that the rest of the world picks up for cheap.
That's an interesting argument --- that massively increased access to pharmaceuticals would have knock-on impacts on other cost areas in the NHE.
I think if we dig into the numbers we're likely to find those effects, even if we maximize them, are marginal, unless we do other structural things to untangle the provider pricing system and do price transparency. Like: you could posit a material impact on CVD costs by making statins more widespread, and that should make a dent somewhere, but I don't know that CVD costs in non-Medicare-insured patients are really that big a line item, and non-Medicare is important here because people already Medicare-qualified generally have all the statins they want already. Meanwhile, providers are still ripping patients (and insurers) faces off for shoulder impingements, stents, and spinal fusions.
Mostly not marketing (still large), but the R&D costs and clinical trial costs. The latter are in hundreds of millions to billions range for the entire journey from a promising discovery to an FDA-approved medicine.
Right, but the idea that Americans specifically should pay higher prices is beyond propaganda. It's Stockholm Syndrome-level delusion. Big Pharm has thrived for generations on our research universities (for the time being anyway) and had a front row seat to expanding foreign markets under US-led globalization. In return, we get the world's most expensive healthcare system and the privilege of paying too much for meds because our leaders won't cut a deal. All they have to lose is the "hundreds of millions to billions range" in annual lobbying expenditures by Big Pharma.
In a sane world - or literally any other country - that $300-$500 million in annual lobbying would be the literal difference that makes medicine accessible for those who need it. Instead, it goes to expensive lunches.
Every time Ive looked into it marketing is more than half of the costs of US pharma companies - and I would suspect even more as don't know if there has much work to unmask even more of that spending via channels that can occur in ways not obviously marked as marketing or at least are really not core to research and manufacturing.
e.g. is all the "discount coupon" pharmacy rigamarole considered marketing or administration.
This is not correct. Here's Pfizer's 2025 annual report [1]. Total expenses for the year were $55.1 billion. Advertising expenses were $2.7 billion of that, or just under 5%. R&D expenses were $12.1 billion, or just under 22%. They do have a lot of SG&A, but the large majority of that is not going to marketing.
Advertising is only a subset of marketing. From that doc, look at operating costs: SGA was ~$11B and R&D ~$12B - basically 50/50. Pfizer is very international, so is pretty difficult to break out US operating costs and what marketing vs R&D is for just the US. But one can also assume US marketing is higher than any other nation as direct-to-consumer advertising is primarily only allowed in the US.
Wait, I hate employer-provided health insurance and think it's a terrible policy but what does that have to do with providers charging everyone --- including Medicare! --- way too much for services?
The health insurance industry drives highly increased administrative costs - costs which the insurance companies are happy to foist off onto non insurance channels?
It’s a round about recognition of the agency problem in the medical industry.
If people chose and directly paid for there own medical bills and insurance then extra fees and extra diagnostics would be born directly by the person paying for it, who would have the freedom to make other choices, like picking insurance providers who were better at preventing it.
At least that’s an argument you can reasonably make. I’m not sure it would hold up in practice given how different medicine is from other markets.
This is an interesting way of presenting a topic, I like it. Especially if it’s got included datasets that allow others to mess with said topic. I don’t want to suggest bloating it up with any complicated UIs, but a Jupyter notebook could be nifty. Maybe not for this specific topic, but other data-heavy subjects.
I think the problem is the system is designed to inflate what is being done to the point it's barely affordable. This new treatment requires more equipment and time? No problem, it's x% more effective, so it gets rolled out. And as medicine expands, the opportunities to make it marginally better also increase.
If what we defined as care was constant, it would get cheaper over time. But it doesn't stay constant.
Probably so. The table heading “Key Finding” smells rankly of LLM, plus the massive overconfidence that they’ve single-handedly figured out the problem with American healthcare with a little data science that only an LLM or a schizophrenic could be capable of (I haven’t read anything beyond the first part of the README because I don’t waste my time with slop, but I’m assuming they’re ignoring the incentive structures which encourage the system to stay this way), plus the simple fact that they call out a completely meaningless $3T gap that doesn’t account for population difference at all. It’s so strange because they mention the per capita difference right before that. That’s the number that matters. But still they go on and say $3T gap, and even measure the issues in terms of a percentage of that $3T gap. It’s nonsensical, right? I’m really tired of this.
> Japan spends ~$5,790 and has the highest life expectancy in the OECD
Is Japan's life expectancy because of its healthcare or culture? I'm pretty sure Americans would not live to the same age as Japanese even with Japanese healthcare because of our low nutrition high sugar diets...
Life expectancy is not a useful health care system comparison because the primary factors that cause divergences between developed countries aren't based in the health system --- they're things like traffic accidents, homicides, drug overdoses, and suicide. Yes, CVD will appear in that list of factors, but it's noisy; despite having structurally the same health care system, states in New England will have Scandinavian CVD outcomes while southern states (some of whom actually do a better job than New England at making care available) have developing-nation CVD outcomes.
This project reminds me of a book I highly recommend called An American Sickness. It sheds a lot of light on the same sorts of issues.
One underlying, perverse incentive behind many of the problems is that insurers are regulated based on percentages of spending rather than total costs.
The US passed laws meant to limit marketing and overhead that tied insurers economics to the size of the overall medical bill... which means as healthcare spending rises, the dollars they’re allowed to retain can rise too, which basically means they're incentivized to drive costs up rather than down.
It's almost as if the insurance companies wrote those regulations. The same ones that required everyone to purchase their product and implemented government subsidies to pay them. Legitimately no way anything other than price increases and insurance profits could happen.
> The US passed laws meant to limit marketing and overhead that tied insurers economics to the size of the overall medical bill... which means as healthcare spending rises, the dollars they’re allowed to retain can rise too, which basically means they're incentivized to drive costs up rather than down.
Yes, this is an important piece of the puzzle. The "medical loss ratio" for large insurers (the kind we all know and love) is set to 85%. So they can keep up to 15% of their revenue as profit.
As you said, if total spending goes up, they get 15% of a larger number.
As a non-American, I find it interesting that so many comments in the thread insist that "No, American healthcare is not that expensive compared to that of other countries; no, the costs of the American healthcare system are not high due to greed and capitalism; and no, the American healthcare system cannot be cheaper or better, it is not perfect, but it works as it is."
As an American, I think most of my countrymen's arguments on the subject resemble something like "learned helplessness". The "healthcare system" is craptasm of kludges that each partly counter the fundamental irrationality of rapacious private healthcare but introduce their own idiocy. So the arguments and "ideas" involve this already dumb measure needs to be changed in that half-assed fashion. A few election cycles ago, an old woman was quoted saying "get the government out of my medicare [medicare is a state program, for foreigners trying to understand this stuff]"
Unregulate the insurance industries problem solved. Let people actually buy insurance for it's intended purpose. No insurance company would pay these rates willingly, they do it because of all the regulations. They aren't allowed to profit normally, so they find ways around it. Just let them operate normally, like all sorts of other insurance programs.
Yeah no thanks, let’s do the tried and true universal healthcare that literally every else does. They get better results AND it’s cheaper. We’re literally paying more for something worse.
Healthcare administrative overhead in the US is pretty huge and has been for a long time. Back in the early 90s I worked on claim processing software and I recall it being discussed as being around a third of healthcare costs.
Last year this podcast said that nobody wants to solve this because solving it is going to eliminate (IIRC) hundreds of thousands of jobs. Which is a point to consider.
Administrative spending accounts for between 15% and 30% of total medical spending, with lower estimates covering only billing- and insurance-related expenses, and higher ones including general business overhead such as quality assurance, credentialing, and profits. https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/hpb20220909.830296/
I witnessed this devolution with my GF. She's a medical provider in CA that, since the mid-90's, got her funding from a state agency. She met with the agency once per quarter, reviewed her funding claims, worked out any discrepancies one-on-one, in-person with her representative. Worked great. Then private insurance muscled their way in. It's been a bureaucratic nightmare ever since. She had to hire a full-time staffer just to handle all the insurance BS. She never needed that before private insurance.
The nightmare isn't just for her; it's also for her patients. She now spends almost as much time walking her patients through the insurance bureaucracy than she spends on actual treatment. And it's so sad because her patients are so desperate (parents of extremely sick children), but often get nothing but bureaucratic run-around from their private insurers.
So yeah, it's been a lose-lose situation since private insurance took over.
>Last year this podcast said that nobody wants to solve this because solving it is going to eliminate (IIRC) hundreds of thousands of jobs.
That's the reason why a lot of inefficiencies are kept in countries around the world: it keeps people employed and moves money through the economy. If broken things were suddenly to be made efficient overnight, the government wouldn't be able deal with masses of angry people/voters suddenly out of a job.
The sentiment reminds me of the people who believe that having so much prosperity that people feel comfortable not working all year around... represents some terrible threat that must be vigorously resisted for the greater good! Think of what it would do to the poor metrics.
Literal overnight change might be too radical (although, frankly, I'd want to see some academic work on the matter because it sounds like it might work - typically the problem seems to be that the body politic tries every alternative but good policy first then blames the mess on freedom) but people who are scared of rapid improvement because they don't like change are a massive threat to human prosperity and really shouldn't be left in charge of anything important.
Delaying the industrial revolution was never a good choice at any point in human history. The potential gains from efficiency are unbelievably large.
Keeping people employed through inefficient bullshit jobs is better for the government than paying them to sit at home, since this way you have control over their livelihoods and their votes.
This is unnecessarily confrontational. The real point here is that there better functioning democracies than the US. They have faults, but Scandinavia and much of northern Europe (partially excluding the UK) much better approximates what you call a fairytale than a US perspective might allow you to believe. Trust in and satisfaction with government institutions in Scandinavia and Finland are much, much higher than in the US, and it's largely justified by their competence and delivery of public goods.
This reminds of a debate in the German parliament 30 years back or so, about the cost for the Eurofighter project (IIRC). Essentially one speaker had argued against the staggering cost, and a second speaker from the government defended the project by saying how many jobs it created. Someone shouted that building a pyramid in honor of Helmut Kohl and it would create a lot of jobs as well, that didn't mean it's a good idea.
> The time burden on physicians is staggering — estimated at $68,000 per physician per year spent dealing with billing-related administrative matters
Having had my share in the administrative part of the medical field, that figure is most probably somewhat misleading. Every time you deal with billing you are bound to deal with granularity. On one extreme you could bill per case, on the other extreme you can count the paperclips used. It could seem at the first glance that the more you move towards the latter, the more time has to be spent by someone to somehow eventually form the invoice.
However, this surface-level conclusion misses the fact that patient care does not start and stop at the the operating room door. Some processes mandate transparency/traceability and thus documenting what's being done and used is part of the process anyway. [edit: the final deliverables are not a treated patient, but rather a treated patient and documentation complete with medicine authorizations / prescriptions (including for drugs used internally), sick-leave certificates, etc.]. That data is then effectively reused for billing, with minimal overhead hopefully. Yes, there's a lot of room for improvement and automatization, but activities not directly related to active care make up a sizable portion of the time.
Where are you getting that from the link that you shared (which is one specific school)? The link you shared shows a figure of $34k and doesn't show a clear breakdown of administrative vs non-administrative costs. The closest I can see in that link is that $13k/$34k is allocated to central services, but most of that cost goes to things like the school buses and the cafeteria and the security guards, which are direct services to students, not administrative overhead. They just are run at the system level, not the individual school level.
I didn't see those figures in your link. It looks like $34,000 is the per capita funding of that school, and it wasn't really broken down into administrative or not.
> Last year this podcast said that nobody wants to solve this because solving it is going to eliminate (IIRC) hundreds of thousands of jobs. Which is a point to consider.
Yet we're ok with spending trillions on AI to eliminate jobs everywhere, including healthcare.
I don't think that's the reason.
Personally I'm of the opinion the reason it isn't being solved, is because the people whose job it would be to solve it get to keep their jobs due to donations from pharma and insurance companies.
Middle men in processes add overhead, but on various analyses I've seen.. zeroing all middleman (insurance, PBM, etc) out still leaves us as far more expensive than the rest of the rich world.
One thing which is not terribly popular to point out is that at least on procedure pricing - wages are way way higher here. Some of that is that education is far more expensive so then we need to pay very well to pay that down. Also we have a cartel that limits the number of medical graduates.
NYC have been striking and to quote the union-friendly NYT "The three hospital systems affected by the strike said their nurses on average make about $160,000 a year and are seeking raises that could propel nurses’ salaries on average past $200,000, according to the hospitals."
By comparison UK pays nurses like US blue state fast food workers. Per google - "Average nurse salaries in London are the highest in the UK, generally ranging from £37,000 to £55,000 per year." Note NYC minimum wage is at $17/hr though many hospitality workers in the $20s, with a renewed Mamdani push to $30/hr minimum.
And US tax rates at these 3-4x higher compensation levels are same/lower than the UK..
Then add Americans having generally unhealthier lifestyles, being more litigious requiring higher malpractice insurance, etc..
> Last year this podcast said that nobody wants to solve this because solving it is going to eliminate (IIRC) hundreds of thousands of jobs. Which is a point to consider.
Why not simply hire them to do something that isn't pointless - like dig ditches or clean garbage
When you really dig into the difference it's metabolic health that is driving most of it, and that will be fixed by agricultural and food regulation for the most of it, starting with going with the whitelist system that japan and the EU have for food additives & manufacturing processes vs. the wild west that is GRAS in the USA, and way more strict food quality / inspection standards than you would think.
This! I flew from Madrid to SF last year and I can't begin to describe the difference in the quality of food. The scale of agricultural industrialization is terrifying - I wish you luck but I don't think anything short of this becoming a major campaign issue will help you.
I think it is possible that the majority of Americans do not know what they are missing. It is difficult to really understand how much better simple things like fruits, vegetables, and bread can taste without experiencing it. It's like The Matrix, you just have to see it for yourself. Well, taste it for yourself. I find that in America even local farm produce at the "farmer's market" often tastes flat and uninspiring. For whatever reason, heirloom tomatoes tend to be good though - they constitute an exception.
To be fair, I was not born in America. So it is possible that it's not that American food is actually subpar, it's just that I became used to particular nuances of how certain foods taste back when I was a child and I do not get that from most American food, and to Americans their produce tastes extremely delicious. I'm pretty skeptical of this idea though. My hunch is that I'm not experiencing some sort of chemical nostalgia, and that American produce actually isn't very good.
RFK Jr. successfully made some of this kind of stuff a minor campaign issue in the most recent US presidential election, so whatever one thinks about RFK Jr., at least it seems that there is some demand for food production reforms in the US electorate.
Lifelong American Midwesterner and I'm also convinced there's a big difference in the taste of some produce between what you get at a typical American grocery store and a farmer's market or my local natural foods store. I get all my produce there, and people who don't normally shop there often comment on how much better my raw vegetables are when they eat at my house.
Someday I should go buy some produce from each store at peak season and try them side by side.
As a European I would think a large part of the problem is that Americans are just sick more seriously and often. Your car culture, quality of food, and general preventative healthcare accessibility seem all terrible there. The prevalence of obesity in younger population is staggering. In my (engineering) programme I see one very obese person and a couple fairly overweight, but that's about it.
Huge chunk of the costs come from the fact that Doctors pay astronomical malpractice insurance rates in some states with no tort reform. Some have to spend more than 100k on insurance - 1/3 of their total pay. Since some states allows multi-million dollar judgments from juries that raises insurance everywhere, which raises not only prices for everyone but also dramatically contributes to more procedures and tests being done at even higher costs to avoid liability. The risks of having your entire livelihood wiped out chases out doctors from those states and reduces availability of care for patients as well. If you want objective cost comparison, compare Veterinary care which has similar consumables and training, but no insurance and liability impact on prices.
The doctor that delivered my middle child said he had to deliver three babies a week just to cover insurance, and he had never had a case against him in his decades of practice.
> The US spends ~$14,570 per person on healthcare. Japan spends ~$5,790 and has the highest life expectancy in the OECD.
Ethnic Japanese in the US live have about the same life expectancy as Japanese living in Japan do (within 1 year). US GDP per capita is about 2.4x Japan's. So the numbers don't look nearly as bad when you adjust for that. The higher drug prices in the US are definitely part of it, part of it is our population is less healthy in general (fatter, worse diet, more drug and alcohol abuse), but part of it is Baumol's cost disease[0]. Biggest barrier to lowering healthcare costs in the US is it probably requires paying doctors, nurses, etc. significantly less and most of them work hard and feel like they deserve to be paid as well as they do.
Edit: to some extent high US drug prices are a public good that subsidizes healthcare for the rest of the world. I don't know the data but I would guess the US is responsible for a disproportionate share of new drugs.
I'm curious to read that. I worked for a PBM back in the 90s/early-2000s. When I was hired, it was just a job; I had no idea what the business did to make money. After working there a few years and learning - well, I would've felt better about myself if I had become an actual drug dealer, selling cocaine and meth. That's not a huge exaggeration.
It's great to see work being done to highlight an issue but I do wonder what background does the author have? Would recommend gestalt/cleveland as a good grounding, the visualizations is editorial rather than analytical.
Choosing US versus Japan, which Japan has the lowest cost and highest life expectancy in the OECD, it's cherry picking. I'd recommend showing the full distribution of OECD per-capita spending rather than just a single cherry picked comparison.
This also is troubled by McNamara Fallacy, we're looking at metrics that are qunatifiable but ignoring what can't be measured or overlooked, is speed of access being considered, how about innovation incentives, quality and outcomes variation across systems, patient choice and flexibility, in addition to workforce compensation (nurses and physicians in the US earn significantly more). Where are the trade-offs?
Summary Statistics can be dangerous. 254% of medicare is a single ratio summarizing enormous variation across thousands of hospitals and procedures. Median markup of 3.96x inherently hides the distribution, some hopsitals may be higher or lower, why is that?
I think the biggest one to me was the confirmation bias, the $3 trillion gap that represented 'fixable waste' was the conclusion. Every price difference is interpreted as waste rather than investigating the potential cost drivers, was there a null finding framework in place where US spending appears justified or is it all bad?
Overall, glad someone is looking into the data and pulling insights, please don't take this as discouragement just a comment from the peanut gallery.
This might be rigth but I don't get a lot of confidence from the start comparing Japan's lifespans to the USAs and implying it's because of health care
Japanese, as a whole, have a vastly different diet than the average USAian. As a whole, they are far less obese, eat far less diary products, over eat less, eat less meat, etc... Again, not saying that's the reason but it's a possibility. USA = 2500 calories a day. Japan = 2000 calories a day. Japan = 3% obese. USA = 33% obese.
Next up is exercise. Sure, lots of people in the country live in rural areas and drive a car. But some large portion of the population does the majority of their commuting and shopping by walk/bus/train/bicycle. That means that on average, Japanese get more far more exercise than the average USAian. Japan gets ~25% more exercise on average
I'd suspect these 2 (3)? are the major reason Japanes live longer. (1) they get more exercise (2a) they don't over eat (2b) they eat healther foods.
Anyway, the point is, the post should arguably not be putting such a specious statement at the top. It suggests the rest is probably just as specious
Healthcare can only get you so long, if we're looking at life expectancy
If you're less active, eat worse, throwing more money at fixing the symptoms will not fix the underlying problem.
Not saying that Americans aren't paying outrageous amounts compared to others, but when comparing these things, I think it makes more sense to look at countries with population more similar to US.
In health care everyone knows the exact problem because they live it and suggests a solution, mostly from opinion or other countries' systems. In the US the system is so bad primarily due to the holy national founding principles: the minimal public support pushes the prices to exorbitant levels due to loss of regulation that ends up to abject profiteering by providers. People try to hack the system so the price is reduced from exorbitant to very expensive. The naive but painful solution is to borrow and adapt elements from other systems and if the Sweden's feels too socialistic, let it be Portugal's or Greece's. The reform will do good to the whole nation, only a few jobs will be lost and some others will see less 6-figure income.
We've collectively decided the nightmare of employer based health insurance is a good idea.
Single payer healthcare will never happen.
Imagine if you will an Apple farmer willing to supply an entire town for a set amount per person.
One town, call it NordicTown says this is a great idea. Everyone chips in.
Another town, Jamestown has lively debate on the issue, but half the population believes unworthy people will get apples.
Since it's the policy that if anyone who shows up at the apple market starving they'll always get an apple, the apple farmer figures out they can bill the town for whatever they want.
Jamestown then ends up implementing special taxes to pay for poorer people to have apples. They could actually extend this to cover everyone without raising taxes.
But this will never happen. Someone you consider lazy might get a free apple. So you gladly pay 3 times as much.
Everyone in America is a single expensive illness away from ruin. We like living in a dystopian nightmare where you have to pick between medicine, a car note and rent.
Did I mention Jamestown residents who relay on free apple programs regularly vote against free apples?
It's neither capitalist nor socialist. If it were fully socialist you would have long wait lists but it would be free and there would be one payer. It is like this for Medicare and Medicaid which I've heard are a fantastic UX. But this is only the case for about half of Americans (the ones who don't pay for it).
On the other side, if it were fully capitalist you would be able to see the price and walk away if you didn't like it. This is what makes capitalism work. Your margin is my opportunity. Instead, the upper middle class, who pays for everything already, and is unable to use Medicaid, is forced to use a certain "network" of providers and never, ever sees the price upfront. This is the cornerstone of capitalism. Does the buyer like the price? If so, transact. It's completely not there. Instead, it's actively discouraged and banned, and the price is maximized post-hoc by the same entities who negotiate directly with the employee's employer. Ie, a quantitative shakedown.
Waitlists are a function of funding, not a direct abstract consequence of socialism. Countries with single payer that have adequate funding - with single payments from taxes that are hugely lower per capita than the US system - do not have long wait lists.
As for walking away - it's hard to do that if you're dying or unconscious.
And of course corporate capitalism always collapses to cartels and monopolies.
The idea that a free market optimised for consumer competition is a mythology, not a reality.
Markets compete for shareholder returns, not customer satisfaction. Customers are only ever a convenient source of profit with inconvenient expectations of service quality and cost.
It’s not a conundrum, it’s a stealth regressive tax. The people who could fix it don’t want it fixed, and there’s are massive commercial incentives to keep perpetuating it, wrapped up in arguments against socialism.
The problems are so vast it is difficult to even describe to outsiders. For example, if I purchase a particular medication at a local pharmacy, it costs $25. However, my insurer mandates that I purchase it via their Pharmacy Benefit Managers (PBM) Optum, which charges $125. Easy enough right, you price shop? Well then it doesnt count towards your deductible. The whole thing is an elaborate trap to not pay.
Sometimes it is easier to just pay cash without insurance altogether. You need the medication today and dont have two weeks to fight it out with letters and forms, then it definitely doesnt count towards your deductible (and also, what is the purpose of the pharmacy coverage insurance?)
Prescriptions are a total racket. A good portion of actual medication literally costs a few dollars at most. Then there’s layer upon layer of bloat and bureaucracy that add no value but drive the cost up 10x or more. It’s totally bonkers.
When these Rx cards and Marc Cuban CostPlus drugs came out where you just pay cash and a fraction of the price I thought there must be some catch or scam here. But turns out no, they’re just cutting out all the middleware bloat and selling you the meds at a defensible markup plus their logistics costs. Love what these guys are doing.
The fact that something like that even exists highlights how corrupt and broken the health insurance companies have become. It’s their job to get better prices at scale and yet somehow they manage to sell at prices far worse that Joe Blogs off the street can get with cash.
In many ways the quality of care in the US is far better than what folks get elsewhere, which in part is probably why there isn’t a total patient rebellion, but the US’s challenges are all rooted in massive administrative overhead. If we got rid of that and had a lean system where healthcare providers can do their job without interference there would be plenty of money to go around for amazing care at lower cost.
> In many ways the quality of care in the US is far better than what folks get elsewhere, which in part is probably why there isn’t a total patient rebellion
How sure of this are we really? Other countries mostly have problems with emergency departments being full, but that's less because those emergency departments are worse and more because in the US people aren't going, they just stay home and hope they don't die.
I guess that's because many/most countries don't have the concept of a private emergency department.
It doesn't really matter how much money you have if you have a broken leg as you'll be queuing up with everyone else for the triage and initial treatment.
I have amazing private healthcare coverage in the UK through my employer. I've had certain treatments done in under a week where the NHS waiting lists for the same procedure are measured in years.
But if I have a serious acute illness, or break a bone, my private healthcare can't help other than give me a telephone appointment with a doctor within 10 minutes at which point they'll say "What are you doing calling us? Go to the emergency department now!"
After the initial triage/treatment/stabilisation there may be a different pathway for people with private healthcare, but the doors of the emergency department are the first port of call for pretty much everyone who is in dire need.
(I'm sure for people who are seriously rich there are private arrangements, most people with serious money have doctors/dentists/etc on retainer, but these are the 0.001%)
We have private emergency rooms. We call them urgent care and you can go and see a qualified physician with allied health services (radiology, pathology). If they can fix you up they will. If not you get transferred via ambulance to the nearest public hospital and triaged as required.
I took my kid to one last weekend as they had been diagnosed by our family Dr as having pneumonia. The emergency physician ordered chest x-ray and full suite of pathology and we had results in less time than we would have waited in the public hospital waiting room. Yes we paid.
As a person who has lived in Spain, UK, and now California, I can attest to one thing: the quality of care in California (I can't speak for the whole country) is vastly superior to what I received in both Spain and UK.
Sate-sponsored universal healthcare is amazing, I love the concept, but it also means that they have to run it like a very stingy HMO. They have a rulebook and they go by it, if your case is even the slightest out of their parameters, tough luck. And don't you dare ask for a second opinion, you'll get the doctor that has been assigned to you and accept whatever they tell you. I could bore you with countless stories of doctors who have used tricks not to provide service and make it look like it was the patient's fault.
The problem with private healthcare is that profits corrupts it. The problem with public healthcare is that politics corrupts it. There is no good solution.
I think this is mostly a problem with state funded healthcare budgets being cut (relative to population demographics) in these countries. If the UK or Spain spent anywhere even close to what the US spends on healthcare (per capita), I have no doubt that it's healthcare provision would be just as good. In the UK, healthcare provision was notably dramatically better 20-30 years ago under the same system (except for less private finance).
Yet, living in Germany, the problems I hear about our healthcare system from friends or in the media are an absolute far cry from the insanity that I hear about the US system. Maybe some of it is sensationalism, but I very much doubt that would account for the whole story.
What's usually missing from anecdotes is class cohorts - so, US working class with Medicaid or a crappy marketplace plan vs working professional with an amazing plan vs retiree with Medicare vs...
Nothing's perfect, but the plan differences seem stark. For example, my wife had a crappy marketplace plan and I had a plan through my employer. For her, an MRI was denied, denied, then finally approved with many calls. For me, it was approved immediately. For her, pre-auth to a specialist was denied until her doctor went and tried a different referral strategy. For me...well, I haven't been denied yet. It goes on - same city, same hospital, some of the same referrals, etc.
I've come to think the price discrimination really does mean we have class-based care which seems to allow for the sensationalism. Combine a dire scenario with a working or indigent class American, and they don't have to exaggerate much at all.
There are other public healthcare models besides Beveridge though. Some countries do the payment & financing via gov, but the actual service is a mix of public/private. Not a perfect solution, but in my opinion better than what we have now. Maybe more achievable than Beveridge too.
There are people who have lived in multiple countries, and speaking with them the only place that seems to be comparable (until you factor in private healthcare of course) is Switzerland.
> It’s their job to get better prices at scale and yet somehow they manage to sell at prices far worse
Maybe on paper, in reality their job is to return as much profit as possible to shareholders. Convoluted bureaucracy, complicated regulations, layers of useless middlemen… they all help to reduce competition and increase profits. There are industries where the “free” market doesn’t work, partly because “human well-being” is a non-goal for any health insurance company. The entire point of the insurance business model is to avoid paying for it as much as possible
People are waking up and a lot is happening to counteract some of this.
In the FY26 omnibus bill passed by Congress and signed last month by Trump is the most aggressive federal crackdown on PBMs in history. Starting in 2028 it bans PBMs from taking a percentage cut, which is exactly what incentivized them to drive up the sticker price of your meds. It forces PBMs to pass 100% of the rebates and discounts they negotiate directly to employer health plans, stopping them from pocketing the savings. And PBMs are now mandated to provide detailed semiannual reports exposing their "spread pricing" (charging the plan more than they pay the pharmacy) and their shady practices of steering patients only to pharmacies they own
Also to do what Mark Cuban did but on a national scale, the federal govt launched TrumpRx.gov, a direct-to-consumer federal platform that completely cuts out the PBMs and insurance deductibles you're talking about , allowing people to buy dozens of the most popular meds for an average of 50% off.
Finally one benefit from the threats of tariffs has been that companies like Pfizer caved and signed landmark deals with the US to offer their drugs at “most favored nation” prices to Medicaid and directly to consumers
There’s so much rampant profiteering in the US healthcare system it’s unbelievable. Other countries look at it from afar in utter disbelief. I’m glad I had no serious health problems when I lived there 25 years ago (and I had health insurance via my employer).
In the UK prescriptions are effectively capped at about USD125 per year:
I recently collected 4 prescriptions from my local pharmacy (3 for temporary conditions, the other one was ADHD meds which I’ll be on for the foreseeable future) and the pharmacy didn’t even want to see proof of my prepayment certificate, I just said I had one and they ticked the relevant box and handed me the prescriptions.
(The implication is that the NHS will check this and come after me if I was lying.)
Don’t get me wrong, there’s lots wrong with the UK healthcare system but the access to regular medication has very few barriers.
I got my ADHD diagnosis via Right-To-Choose, so it is considered an NHS diagnosis and I get my medication via the NHS (and therefore cheap). But the RTC pathway isn't available in Wales/Scotland/NI. I'd either have to wait years for an NHS diagnosis or go private and then have to pay £££ for my prescriptions privately.
The UK system has many problems but at least the general population are shielded from the exorbitant individual costs. We pay for it through general taxation but that, at least, spreads the load a bit.
I got my ADHD diagnosis privately (mostly because of the length of the NHS waiting lists, and I'm currently waiting on a NHS RTC provider to transfer my care there) and I pay the trade price plus pharmacy markup (so ~£40/mo) for my medication, for whatever it's worth as comparison.
Definitely not cheap (I would prefer the £9.90 NHS prescription fee) but I get the feeling that it's cheaper than I would pay elsewhere in the world anyway.
Health care is so broken that I think it will unbreak itself.
You can eliminate most of the problem by mandating true cost billing by hospitals (get rid of their insurance mandated 500%+ markups to make it look like your insurance does anything at all besides make your care as costly as possible).
As you said, it's oftentimes cheaper to buy drugs without insurance.
The average person would quickly find out that insurance doesn't pay for anything at the hospital (most of the time).
~80% of healthcare spending is already at the tail end, and the state already covers most of that through Medicare and Medicaid.
The bottom ~50% of spenders (healthy people) only spend ~3% in total of healthcare (~$900 per year per person, about 1 month's PREMIUM).
Health insurance is a MASSIVE tax on the bottom ~3% of spenders (~50% of the population), when the state ALREADY covers the vast majority of people that need covered for tail end expenses.
Think about this: the MEDIAN adult in the US pays <$1k in personal income tax! Yearly health care premiums (that do nothing) are 3x that! 75%+ of the median person's true tax is going to health insurance that does NOTHING for them.
We already have the European model. Health insurance as it is is a tax. It just could not be designed to function more poorly than it does for the average healthy worker.
It benefits literally no one besides the health insurance industry which does not employ that many people, and is not strategically important for national security.
If the state completely covered the tail, and we had true billing at hospitals, almost no one would need or want insurance besides people that already have it through Medicare and Medicaid.
You are extremely close to arriving at the solution, which is medicare for all. Cover everyone, then almost noone uses the insurance except when they need it, which is when they get old.
If the US had the equivalence of Canadian health insurance, the spending reduction would be so big, that as a working person, your health insurance bill would go to zero, out of pocket costs to zero, and everyone would have health insurance.
Medicare's admin cost is around 5%, private insurance is around 33% of claim dollars. There are around 27-28% uninsured. The money is already there who pays needs to be moved to the Billionaire and Multimillionaire class to reduce the annual costs for those who work for a living.
> private insurance is around 33% of claim dollars.
The Medical Loss Ratio (MLR) requirement established by the Affordable Care Act (ACA) is 20%.
Typically it's closer to 15%.
As these are private companies, some percentage of that is obviously profit.
It doesn't cost that much more to run private insurance than Medicare.
The problem is the incentive of insurance to drive up cost to get a larger fixed cut, and the lack of a public option (which would require private insurance to actually be worth it).
The United States will never have universal healthcare because a subset of the population would rather pay more for worse health outcomes than participate in a system the provides abortions, HRT, or PreP, or any healthcare at all to Black people.
See, for example, “Dying of Whiteness: How the Politics of Racial Resentment Is Killing America’s Heartland” by Jonathan Metzl
I think that some_random is saying sarcastically, "46493168, keep doing libel on people of white blood by stating that they vote against health insurance reform because they are racist, and maybe it will solve the problem."
> You are extremely close to arriving at the solution, which is medicare for all. Cover everyone, then almost noone uses the insurance except when they need it, which is when they get old.
I strongly think that covering everyone in the existing system is not the best way to go.
The existing system is designed to cost as much as possible, and we have way too much demand for treatment (as is) and not enough supply. ER wait-times aren't 2-4 hours just because.
First, that needs to break.
Then, you can cover everyone.
We simply do not have enough doctors for how many old and unhealthy people we have. We should be thinking about how to keep people from going to the hospital that don't really need to be there. Do you really need to go to the ER because you stubbed your toe? If you didn't have insurance, you'd go to a low-cost clinic and get the same treatment for 1/10th the price.
We are slowly getting there already. Low cost clinics weren't widely available, but they are becoming more and more available as the cost of health care even WITH insurance is too high for most people.
The infrastructure for the bottom ~50% of people needs to exist to break free from a system that is not designed for them BEFORE they can move off it.
It's almost there.
Since One Medical became widely available, I basically have not gone to the hospital in 5+ years. Before, you kind of needed to go even for routine things (or at least I didn't know of a viable alternative). More and more places like this are springing up all over the US.
I hate to break it to you but insurance is meant to be a tax on the entire risk pool. What changed after the ACA is we couldn’t kick anyone out of the risk pool for getting sick.
> You are extremely close to arriving at the solution, which is medicare for all. Cover everyone, then almost noone uses the insurance except when they need it
Most Medicare recipients do get supplementary private insurance though? It's called "Medigap."
Medicare pays for 80% of patients' costs, but even the remaining 20% is a lot. (You get a $100,000 procedure -- you're on the hook for $20,000.) That's why people get Medigap coverage.
By "the insurance" I was referring to Medicare. I'm a working, healthy person and rarely use healthcare outside of preventative care. You could raise my Medicare taxes by hundreds monthly and still be less than what I pay for private insurance.
In a Medicare-for-all scenario, the individual price of a given procedure doesn't need to be so high, because the reimbursement is guaranteed. Right now, the "list"
price of the procedure has to be high to subsidize the uninsured and Medicaid who lose money.
I'm sure there are single payer health insurance countries in which people still purchase insurance, which should inspire debate about the universal insurance cost-sharing.
Regardless, the only viable solution in the US is a single payer insurance model.
Oh you must have United Healthcare. Yeah they do this with IVF drugs too, and I’m sure with chemotherapy drugs. Plus it all has to be shipped so if you’re mid-cycle and the doctor orders a different medication you either waste the benefits or pay out of pocket. And they structure all their pricing so the fertility benefit covers a cycle but the medications aren’t fully covered so you pay out of pocket in medication that’s 3-4x as expensive as the cash price would be at a pharmacy like Alto.
The problem with healthcare is that it can have infinite cost. The question that each society tries to answer is how much are they willing to pay to prolong the life of each individual. There are no right answers unfortunately, as all of them lead to preventable deaths. But some of them at least promote the concept of a caring society.
I see a lot of the comments operating from an empirical framing. This is valid analysis and is good; we should want to understand the waste in the system as it stands.
However, that isn't enough. US healthcare is wildly inefficient because the paying customer is different than the serves customer. This has been known for sixty years, since Arrow published his paper (he identified four reasons, three of which are not exclusive to healthcare and seem to be mitigated well in other industries). I'm surprised people posting can't quite see this: when you go to the doctor, would you call the experience efficient? You check in, then wait, then are called back, tell the nurse or PA why you're there, wait, see the provider who asks you again why you're there, has a short exam, wait, finally get all the paperwork and sign out.
If you have labs or tests, you then wait again. And of course if you need a specialist, you wait again, sometimes for months. If you need any sort of "specialty" medication or equipment, then you REALLY wait, as specialty pharmacies, DMEs and the like jump in.
The whole system is woefully inefficient, and overhead is only a part of the explanation. No one knows what anything costs, and the people who pay (insurance providers, the largest of which is the US Government) want to believe they're not getting scammed - they still are, but at an acceptable level.
The question we ought to ask is how we can buy better health outcomes for people. And I think part of the answer is that in most cases, individuals and families themselves must allocate resources they control to make this happen.
And yet it is still vastly more inaccessible and inefficient than other countries where the same holds. There is a lot that could be learned from other countries. So it's good to see that this repo does so.
I notice the repo has no data on supply of doctors per person in different countries. It's well known that the US residency system with its limited slots constrains the supply of doctors who can practice in the US.
There exist similar systems in pretty much any other western nation. The problem is that teaching doctors is expensive and isn't something you can ramp up quickly because you need other doctors to teach the new doctors. The supply of doctors is a problem that is universal to essentially all western nations especially if you move away from metropolitan areas. It's largely due to aging populations and failure to increase spending on medical education over decades. I think the US is actually better off than many other countries, because they pay disproportionately high salaries so get more immigrants.
That said I don't think there's evidence that lack of doctors is what is driving up cost in the US. Just an example, growth in hospital administrators has significantly outpaced medical staff over the last decades, which will directly increase cost.
The reason you tell several different people why you are there is because that is important. if a system doesn't they need to start!
people often remember things when asked latter. this gives more opportunity to ask about everything you care about even if you forget the first time.
people sonetimes grab the wrong chart. This helps ensure that they check for things that matter to you and not someone else - your history is on the chart if they are watching you for something weird in you history this is important.
> The question we ought to ask is how we can buy better health outcomes for people
spend more money. you DO live in the greatest country on the planet, surely if an american citizen cannot raise the funds for healthcare, in what country can you expect to?
I worked in healthcare start-ups for many years and the main problem is mis-aligned incentives.
The #1 thing we need to do is make it illegal for your healthcare to be tied to your employment. We can still have your employer provide a X% or $Y to an HSA account that the employee can buy health coverage wherever they like. (I'm not optimistic that this will ever happen politically)
The issue today is that NOT healing you makes everyone more money, like a LOT more. There is no incentive for anyone to help people get healthy just to have a different insurance company benefit from the decreased claims.
This is also the only way forward to value based care (for primary) where doctors (providers et al) can take on the risk/reward. They get some amount (say $1K ??) per year and they keep it and submit no claims. However, if there costs go above, they eat it loss. Now the doctor and the insurance company (payer) are all incentivized to get and keep people healthy.
> We can still have your employer provide a X% or $Y to an HSA account that the employee can buy health coverage wherever they like. (I'm not optimistic that this will ever happen politically)
Doesn't this already partly exist? My (US) employer offers an HDHP (high-deductible health plan) that comes with an HSA.
(It's not quite what you described, because you have to use the insurer that the company picked. I think you're describing something more like the Singaporean system with Medisave.)
"Our high spending is overwhelmingly a product of our high incomes and if other OECD countries had our exceptionally high material standard of living most of them would be spending very similarly, with similar utilization, similar intensity, similar prices, and otherwise not obviously better overall outcomes."
You and I look with dismay at the high prices, but remember that a million hospital administrators are high-fiving themselves. So ideas like "just cut waste" are opposed by a large group with a lot more skin in the game.
Until we eliminate for-profit health insurance companies, i will never be convinced this isn't anything other than a massive scam to over-inflate costs, and inflate insurance margins as much as the people can tolerate.
Im sure big-pharma has an interest in over-medicating too, but that should be solved by transparent pricing.
It still blows my mind i cant window shop hospital procedures.
The opaque-ness of medical billing in the US only further favors the for-profit insurance company margins.
Burn it all down. Single-payer for all. I really have zero sympathy for insurance companies who pride themselves on denying their paying clients life-saving care in favor of shareholder returns. It's such a crazy moral hazard that really highlights a sickness in America.
I don't really think it (late Capitalism) is reversible in anyway. It is better to just let it completes its path, turn a new page and maybe we can start from scratch. A lot of people (you and me) are going to suffer and die. But human nature says that real changes only happen when the old bastion is dead.
Ancient Chinese wisdom: "People praise doctors who delay the progression of incurable diseases but not those who prevent them".
Although I'd be happy to see this insanity die, I don't understand how anyone thinks this is going to "complete its path." Honest question. Can someone describe what that end consists of?
Doctors and other providers bill for each individual thing they do. But that means that their incentive is to do as much as possible, so they can quickly rack up billable codes.
It's like if developers billed their employer per line of code they wrote: the incentive is for churn, when it should be for slowing down and thinking about quality.
[OP] rexroad | 21 hours ago
fblp | 15 hours ago
cmiles8 | 16 hours ago
Healthcare providers try and combat all this by literally just making up pricing and trying to negotiate something while also having bloated administrative structures that raise costs for all.
Nothing about the current state of the healthcare system makes much sense to anyone that tries to peel back the onion.
shigawire | 11 hours ago
I'd offer a slight tweak. None makes sense in a vacuum or solely considering efficiency. It all makes sense seeing the evolution over time and the misaligned incentives.
mexicocitinluez | 2 hours ago
What's wild, is that at least in the slice of healthcare I'm in, Medicare is one of our best most reliable payors. In fact, in some cases, our contracts with private insurers have them promise to pay at least 80-85% of what Medicare would reimburse us.
The other benefit with Medicare is that they just give us a lump sum of money and let us do what we want with it as long as we get good outcomes. Which means we don't have to fight for every visit we make to the patient. And they base it off of a public formula that we have access to (unlike with the private insurers).
paulddraper | 16 hours ago
Three reasons:
1. Medicare has quasi-monopolistic negotiation power that private insurers can only dream of -- Medicare spend two-thirds of all the private insurers combined. That's why private insurers would combine in a heartbeat if the FTC allowed it.
2. Moreover, that Medicare volume is concentrated in a specific segment of the market. If many providers dropped expensive United contracts, the insured people/companies might move to a new insurer. But Medicare's base will never leave.
3. Since Medicare covers older individuals, often on a fixed income, there is natural discriminatory pricing. (Think of the "senior discount" at your local entertainment venue.)
[1] https://www.kff.org/medicare/how-much-more-than-medicare-do-...
observationist | 16 hours ago
levocardia | 15 hours ago
piva00 | 15 hours ago
nradov | 15 hours ago
https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/price-we-pay-9781635574128/
piva00 | 6 hours ago
From the book it seems much more like the American public is being taken advantage of by the prescription fulfillment from pharmacy networks rather than subsidising anything for the rest of the world.
> Today, approximately 80% of Americans get their medications through a PBM.2 American businesses financing the coverage and the employees paying for their medications are usually oblivious to the price gouging. When people get frustrated that drug prices keep going up, they often point the finger at pharma bad boys like Martin Shkreli. More often, though, the price spikes are taking place right under their noses.
> If we could slash the spread, it would make a tremendous difference for thousands of businesses. According to a recent analysis in the journal Health Affairs, reducing generic reimbursement by $1 per prescription would lower health spending by $5.6 billion annually.
> Health insurance companies direct their business to their own PBMs, which increases their margins. For example, OptumRx, one of the big three PBMs, is owned by America’s largest health insurance company, UnitedHealth Group. Insurers may offer less expensive health insurance premiums. But then they use their PBM to achieve a greater profit margin.
> The PBM Express Scripts is now owned by the insurance company Cigna, and as I write this book, a merger between the PBM CVS Caremark and the insurer Aetna is being finalized. Together, the big three PBMs—OptumRx, Express Scripts, and CVS Caremark—control approximately 85% of the U.S. market and manage medication benefits for most people in the United States.
[OP] rexroad | 15 hours ago
[OP] rexroad | 15 hours ago
timtim51251 | 16 hours ago
Because of Obamacare requiring 80% of the money they collect to be spent, the insurance companies just get to keep 20%. So insurance companies spend more so they can collect higher premiums. That's how they make more money.
Several doctor friends have told me this as well.
skybrian | 16 hours ago
shdudns | 16 hours ago
bmcahren | 16 hours ago
Every major piece of legislation needs revisions to chase circumvention and we're well past due on updates but no legitimate bills have been presented that cover these topics and that's not a one-party issue.
cogman10 | 15 hours ago
prirun | 15 hours ago
I ended up paying $12K to Mayo for a week of appointments. Private insurance, if I could have gotten it, would have been at least $1000/mo for premiums (in 2020) plus $10K deductible, so I actually saved money just paying Mayo instead of getting private insurance.
IMO the only reason insurance companies allowed the ACA to pass was the stipulation that everyone in the US was required to get insurance coverage or face a penalty. When the Supreme Court ruled that provision illegal, I'm sure the insurance companies were furious that they were duped.
nradov | 15 hours ago
glenstein | 15 hours ago
Sorry I'm struggling to follow here. You think the open enrollment period effectively means that there's no prohibition on pre-existing conditions? Think you're kind of bending words outside of their normal usage because quite literally pre-existing condition policies are banned. The compensating counterbalance is a neutral open enrollment period so people don't just jump when they learn they have a health problem, it's a compromise to ensure financial sustainability.
You do understand that before this, it was worse right? One comment after another here is comparing the ACA to a magical fantasy, rather than the status quo that it improved upon.
gzread | 15 hours ago
The thing you're trying to do - sign up for insurance to cover a specific procedure - is quite literally what the system is designed to prevent. You're supposed to have insurance all the time or none of the time. Did you try asking the clinic how much it would cost if you are uninsured and paid cash?
nostrebored | 15 hours ago
If you tell me you’re going to light your house on fire and then ask me for fire insurance, I should be able to say no.
Instead what we have is not insurance, but the world’s worst socialized health plan. Insurance is for managing tail risk, not for distributing the cost of healthcare. If we’re willing to pay a tax to subsidize the elderly, we should cut out the middleman and let the government fill that function.
vjvjvjvjghv | 16 hours ago
And since then it has been a fight for survival without much chance for improvement. The republican refuse anything that could improve it but want to “repeal and replace” but are struggling a little with the “replace” part. And the democrats are too timid to make another push.
So we end up with the worst of all worlds. Super expensive, overall results not very good and super complex.
raw_anon_1111 | 15 hours ago
watersb | 15 hours ago
(Which makes the system worse. The fiction of a fiduciary responsibility to extract top dollar from a business regardless of consequences is the opposite of "capitalism". Which derives its name from the practice of sound investment to build something of lasting value.
To say nothing of the social deviance of for-profit healthcare.)
dboreham | 14 hours ago
genthree | 16 hours ago
cogman10 | 15 hours ago
Removing the rule wouldn't help things.
nradov | 15 hours ago
mothballed | 15 hours ago
Whether they would be the rate limiting factor in health care remain to be seen, since health care is highly regulated with regulatory capture, licensing, and violence enforced market manipulations. As a thought experiment, in the extreme that health care were a pure monopoly, then I could envision some price caps somewhere between cost and price where the supply curve is relatively flat on either side thus creating minimal effects to supply.
nradov | 14 hours ago
mothballed | 13 hours ago
Typically in these countries you actually can get health care as long as you pay privately yourself and don't go through the 'single payer.' A price cap would mean that no matter how much you're willing to pay, you can't pay over the cap, which is much rarer than the presence of 'national healthcare systems' that merely won't pay over the supposed soft 'cap'.
twoodfin | 13 hours ago
mwwaters | 14 hours ago
It depends on the level of market failure, but there are not a ton of hospitals to choose from regardless.
nradov | 13 hours ago
https://fortune.com/2025/11/10/nvidia-hometown-santa-clara-c...
mwwaters | 13 hours ago
Monopolies, in these cases natural monopolies, can in fact exist. Look at the Micro supply and demand curves. As a general rule over those 100 years, there has not been rationing of electricity. There are natural blackouts and today an unplanned surge in demand (as happens in every industry such as chips after Covid), but generally the price regulation did not cause some kind of gas lines.
laughing_man | 15 hours ago
raw_anon_1111 | 15 hours ago
Even if you do get private insurance for quicker access, it’s still much cheaper than the US.
I just spoke to someone who flew down here to save $30K on dental work.
The problem isn’t the ACA, it’s the ass backwards American health care system. I was at a meetup of American ex-pats here and half of them said they established residency here to join CAJA - the health care system
nostrebored | 15 hours ago
Insurance companies have raised prices to restore profit, were briefly a mandatory expense, and will exist for years to come.
lotsofpulp | 15 hours ago
Why do their stocks underperform so badly?
https://imgur.com/S8bNSM2
rybosworld | 15 hours ago
lotsofpulp | 14 hours ago
You can find out similar results for longer periods here:
https://dqydj.com/stock-return-calculator/
https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-calculator/
ipsento606 | 14 hours ago
before the ACA, insurers could deny coverage for pre-existing conditions
people have forgotten how bad things used to be
CGMthrowaway | 14 hours ago
tptacek | 12 hours ago
CGMthrowaway | an hour ago
raw_anon_1111 | 55 minutes ago
The ACA also was written to enforce that through mandates and subsidies - a carrot and stick approach. The moral hazard was caused once there weren’t any mandates because of lawsuits by Republicans and the insurance companies still had to accept everyone.
twoodfin | 13 hours ago
ChadNauseam | 13 hours ago
Obama couldn't change that, so the ACA redesigned the system to work with it. Despite being called insurance, health insurance is no longer really viewed or designed to be any kind of insurance. Instead, it's supposed to be Netflix for healthcare. You pay a flat rate, and then get unlimited healthcare. Obviously, the issue with this is that if you don't need healthcare you can just not sign up for the subscription. So the ACA tried to solve this by requiring everyone to sign up. Once everyone is required to sign up, it's not right to discriminate against preexisting conditions. It may not be an especially good system, but it is coherent.
mjevans | 13 hours ago
Maybe a department of Return on Investment. See what those taxes pay for. Contrast to buying private versions of the services at the same SLA or better.
twodave | 12 hours ago
raw_anon_1111 | 13 hours ago
The way it was suppose to work with the original mandate is that everyone had to be insured either through their employee or the exchange. So you couldn’t just buy insurance when you were sick. The Supreme Court struck that down.
If you lost your job, before the ACA, you could not get health insurance outside of working for someone and having group insurance at any cost.
But you do realize that the entire idea of not being able to get insurance because of pre-existing conditions is completely unique to the US?
Costa Rica for instance (where I am right now for a month and half) allows anyone to become a resident as long as you have guaranteed income of around $2000 a month or you deposit $60K into a local bank account and they arrange monthly disbursements and you pay 15% of your stated income to CAJA. Healthcare is both better and more affordable here.
The same is true for Panama. Why can’t the US figure this out?
GenerWork | 12 hours ago
This is a flat out lie. You absolutely could buy health insurance without being at a company.
raw_anon_1111 | 12 hours ago
throw0101c | 12 hours ago
What if someone gets Type 1 diabetes as a child so they can no longer get insurance because of that "pre-existing" condition: if they get cancer for unrelated reasons they should just be saddled with medical debt? Or because of your Type 1 you can't get coverage, and you get t-boned in your car by a drunk driver.
Certainly it sounds 'unfair' that someone who smokes (a personal choice) gets similar cancer coverage for someone who does not smoke. But it also means that if your ((great-)grand-)mother had cancer, and you get it through no fault/choice of your own (i.e. genetics), you can also get coverage. (This latter effects a cousin of mine: her aunt (mom's sister) died of cancer at 37, her mom at 63; so now she's wonder when here number will come up. We're in Canada, so have universal care, but it's still something in her DNA.)
There are many circumstances in which you suffer through no fault of your own, and universal health coverage is present in many societies because it was decided to protect those people—even if it allows some 'free-riding' by others making poor choices.
People make all sorts of crazy decisions to prevent the "wrong" people from getting what they "don't deserve":
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_of_Whiteness
ikr678 | 11 hours ago
You don't need 'insurance' in order to get your vehicle serviced, but that is what the US does with healthcare.
raw_anon_1111 | 10 hours ago
I can’t say the same about health care
ajkjk | 12 hours ago
tptacek | 12 hours ago
Similarly, insurers would as a matter of course exclude from coverage any woman with one of several extremely common conditions, including endometriosis, PCOS, fibroids, and adenomyosis.
Prior to Obamacare, insurers were free to deny coverage wholesale for these conditions. It would have been fucked up to extend coverage but exclude any neurological conditions from my kid, but the actual outcome was worse: they were under the law entitled to withhold any coverage.
bspammer | 7 hours ago
antisthenes | 11 hours ago
Not really, because whereas before things were bad for people with pre-existing conditions, now they are really bad for everyone.
People are paying exorbitant prices either for insurance, for routine health care stuff, or for both.
There was no free lunch, so we traded some health care for the chronically ill, for slightly less healthcare for everyone else. The insurance companies make sure it's an extractive zero-sum game in terms of actual healthcare provided.
raw_anon_1111 | 42 minutes ago
I was also a part time fitness instructor, runner and could past any of the standardized fitness assessment standards for someone who was 5 years younger as far as push ups, sit ups, running etc.
I had a contract so I could have easily paid more based on risk.
Before anyone mentions COBRA, that’s only an option if your former group plan still exists and it didn’t when the company went out of business.
Just looking, even now the ACA Silver for my wife and I would be around $800 a month in my state. Even ignoring medical costs have gone up more than inflation, that would have been $550 a month in 2011 if the ACA had been available.
SV_BubbleTime | 13 hours ago
It has no military, and is effectively dependent of the US and in best cases neighboring countries. It has excellent weather and soil which account for its fruits exports… and outside of some niche industry, is mostly reliant on tourism which means importing money.
I love that country and have been many times. But if it were god forbid wiped off the face of the earth, it would be sad and annoying at best.
Costa Rica has “free healthcare” / healcare from taxes because it has 5 million people, about 1/2 of New Jersey.
This isn’t some mechanism that the US just refuses to use. It’s a matter of scale. You either don’t know and should remain silent on the topic, or do know it and lack the honor to not state it.
raw_anon_1111 | 12 hours ago
Guess which other country has universal healthcare - China. They are just slightly more populous than the US.
> This isn’t some mechanism that the US just refuses to use. It’s a matter of scale. You either don’t know and should remain silent on the topic, or do know it and lack the honor to not state it.
China does have a military…
Maybe you should take your own advice. Every other country in the world seems to have figured this out.
nradov | 11 hours ago
raw_anon_1111 | 11 hours ago
SV_BubbleTime | an hour ago
With Canada now ending the life of 100k citizens a year making their MAID program now the leading cause of death in the country out ranking cancer and heart disease? How strange that in Canada you can deduct health expenses on your taxes… what a strange thing for a place with free healthcare?
And in Britain you mean the scandal-free and extremely popular NHS? I guess you have a great point there because it’s not their elite would immediately come to the US for care.
The grass is not greener. This is a bad system made worse and worse by heavy handed government “helping”. Healthcare in the US only got worse after ACA.
raw_anon_1111 | an hour ago
And all of those people with pre existing conditions didn’t have just “delays” getting healthcare they didn’t get it all.
So sure insurance is great in America for you if as your handle suggests you work in tech in SV.
I don’t have a dog in this fight. I’ve got an exit plan if I have to get insurance before I’m 65 amd may just retire here even after 65
hibikir | 12 hours ago
Most of the costs are ultimately salaries to Americans, and money handed to American companies, so most savings would come from someone's livelihood. That's why we cannot reform: The party that actually cuts costs will build resentment for decades, and create a blip of unemployment. Nobody wants to do that, and therefore you aren't going to be a serious, relentless attempt at cutting costs. We've seen how the attempts that the ACA made were counteracted by consolidation at all levels.
Serious cuts have to have no mother. Say, if we ever did have an AI that worked well enough at this, and outcompeted primary care physicians. Foreign pharmacies bypassing all controls and being able to hand you much discounted drugs the day after. Telemedicine and cheap travel put together to make surgery that didn't involve an ER visit just as easy and much cheaper than using the US system. Straight out disruption, because the incentives are such we sure aren't getting improvements in regulation.
raw_anon_1111 | 11 hours ago
Not to mention that because of Bush, the government is not allowed to negotiate drug prices.
phil21 | 15 hours ago
As such, as light of an incentive it is - it’s the only party in the entire system that is incentivized in any way whatsoever to keep costs down.
Insurance providers also rarely operate at the full freight 20% either way though. So they are at least at this time incentivized to control costs at some level since every dollar saved is a dollar added to the profit line. Otherwise they would not be known for denying claims so often.
This is ignoring a whole lot of very important complexities as well - such as self funded insurance plans that most major companies utilize. There the insurance company is simply a plan administrator getting paid the same either way.
It’s one of those tropes that has a source of truth behind it but the actual reality is far less satisfying of an answer. Makes for great sound bites and ability to shut down further thought on the subject though. The uncomfortable truth is that there is no simple fix and no one bad actor that is the cause of all the insanity.
cogman10 | 15 hours ago
This is why there needs to be a real second option. A public option like medicare for all would be the way to go. Let everyone choose between either private insurance or public insurance. Then you'd actually see some real competition.
phil21 | 15 hours ago
No argument from me that insurance is not competitive enough. But they are almost all public corporations that are highly regulated so the numbers on profit and expense ratios are easy to get for yourself to prove the point. No need to take my, or anyone with an agenda word for it. Almost everyone wants a simple answer to a complex interdependent problem that does not have one.
If there was a single solitary answer of “what is the problem with US healthcare” I’d have to go with it being a principle agent problem. If everyone who consumed healthcare had to pay up front very few services would cost what they do. Even changing it so people were billed directly and then had to submit insurance claims later like how pet insurance or car insurance works would go a long ways. But even that doesn’t solve the problem entirely, as it leaves massive gaps. Second answer would be “administrative class bloat” like in all areas of the US today.
Single payer is certainly a major part of the answer, but in isolation it’d solve almost nothing and potentially make things even worse as all the inane cross-subsidy comes crashing down overnight.
Edit: the point is medical loss ratios, admin overhead, etc. is public information not hidden behind some private company firewall. The fact non profits haven’t captured 100% of the market by being crazily cheaper should be telling on its own.
nradov | 15 hours ago
chickensong | 5 hours ago
The real players are big corps like United and CVS, who control the whole vertical of provider and payer. They own the doctors, the pharmacies, and the insurance.
rayiner | 15 hours ago
autoexec | 12 hours ago
gmoot | 12 hours ago
nradov | 11 hours ago
rayiner | an hour ago
rayiner | an hour ago
That’s what I mean when I refer to facile ideological reactions. For many people, “profits” are the problem, and they don’t care that health insurers on average are less profitable than Subway franchises. It’s just the mirror image of people who say the New York MTA is a disaster because the government is running it, and don’t care that governments in other countries manage to run cost-efficient train systems.
chickensong | 5 hours ago
Big players like United just shuffle money around because they own the entire vertical market. Their insurance arm is regulated so they just move the money to to their service provider arms like Optum which are unregulated with uncapped profits.
Retric | 15 hours ago
That’s only half the story though insurance companies also try and reject way more claims, cover fewer people, and are just harder to get money from than Medicare.
This means hospitals can’t afford to give them cheaper rates as they just require vastly more work from staff for the same procedure.
The industry isn’t blind to this effect, but has little reason to change.
phil21 | 15 hours ago
Private insurance subsidizes Medicare and Medicaid even after you add in admin overhead.
[OP] rexroad | 15 hours ago
lotsofpulp | 4 hours ago
Or doesn’t live.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/UNH/unitedhealth-g...
All the other managed care organizations have similar 2% profit margins.
It is funny seeing complaints of excess profit margins from businesses earning 2%, that compete against non profits, from people on a forum composed of employees of tech businesses earning 20%+ profit margins. I wonder how much Epics’s profit margin is?
And then there is also pharmaceuticals, also earning double digit profit margins. And then the law firms in medical malpractice suits, who I imagine are not working for 2% profit margins either.
nradov | 15 hours ago
https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/episode/ep502-how-some-pre...
Projectiboga | 15 hours ago
nradov | 13 hours ago
lupire | 13 hours ago
da_chicken | 14 hours ago
Also, I'm not going to trust a podcast owned and operated by Stacey Richter, who also just so happens to be the co-president of Aventria Health Group and QC-Health.
nradov | 14 hours ago
AnthonyMouse | 14 hours ago
These are synonyms for having higher overhead, right? If you pay a billion dollars in claims with ten million dollars in administrative costs then your "administrative overhead" is 1%, even if half the claims are fraud. If you increase "administrative costs" to a hundred million to get rid of the fraud, in practice you just saved 410 million dollars but now your "administrative overhead" is up to 20%.
apical_dendrite | 12 hours ago
apical_dendrite | 12 hours ago
nradov | 12 hours ago
CWuestefeld | 15 hours ago
There's a common, misleading, claim that Medicare is more efficient because they spend far less than commercial insurance on overhead like claims processing. This claim is true. But the impression that it gives is absolutely the opposite of reality. The reason that Medicare doesn't spend as much on admin is that they offload all of this work onto the providers. Every hospital in America has a "Medicare Reimbursement" team. A moderate-sized hospital is going to have something like 2 FTEs focusing just on the reimbursements from Medicare and Medicaid. And that's a lot more work than just filing the right forms for each case. There's a ton of additional work. Each spring they have to file a HUGE "Medicare Cost Report", requiring a couple of months of work to get all the data in place for it. (Source: my wife was "Director of Reimbursement" at various hospitals for quite a few years, before going into consulting.)
That Medicare Cost Report that I mentioned is, beyond a huge effort sink, the source of many other evils. Because of the amount of work that's needed to gather and collate all this data, hospitals naturally structure their Accounting around the way Medicare wants them to report. The thing is, that's largely orthogonal to the way a rational person would do cost accounting. The result is the common criticism about how widely varying the cost of a given specific line-item is between hospitals: they don't really know how much a given procedure costs because that's not how they track their expenses, so they apply some allocation heuristics, and every hospital does that a bit differently.
There are also various perverse incentives in the system. For example, Medicare is smart enough to know that it costs more to deliver care in NYC or SF and so forth. Every locale has a Cost Index that scales how much they expect to need to pay. This leads to hospitals needing to show that their expenses are higher so they should be classified into locale X rather than neighboring locale Y.
Another one my wife told me about her hospital: Medicare realized that a lot of UTIs were hospital-acquired, and they rationally said that they would no longer pay for UTI treatments unless the hospital could prove that they were not hospital acquired. Well, maybe that wasn't rational, because with Medicare/caid being such a huge portion of their business, they changed their policy to test for UTI for everyone at admission, so that they could furnish the proof demanded. Think of all that wasted lab work...
So no, Medicare is NOT more streamlined and efficient. It's absolutely, 180-degrees, the opposite of that.
Retric | 14 hours ago
> something like 2 FTEs focusing just on the reimbursements from Medicare and Medicaid
2FTE’s vs what?
The question isn’t is this free, the question is how large is the total staff including price negotiations, doctors, and IT time spent handling billing issues, and is Medicare more or less than 50% of the total.
I am ware of one hospital and 2 medical clinics where the difference is very much in favor of Medicare.
CWuestefeld | 14 hours ago
versus nothing. Hospitals don't have to maintain a whole team for UnitedHealth, or for Anthem, etc.
This is my point. Medicare cooks the books to look more efficient by offloading their administrative costs onto providers. Other payers can't do that because, even if huge, they don't operate at the same scale.
Think about it: we often hear on the news about disputes about contracts when a local hospital's agreement with some insurance company comes up for renewal. They play hardball, getting local news to run stories on how many people will be affected if they can't come to terms. But you'll never hear this in the context of Medicare/caid. Hospitals have leverage to negotiate with commercial payers, but not with the government.
nradov | 14 hours ago
apical_dendrite | 11 hours ago
I work in this area and you're right that Medicare can require a huge amount of paperwork from providers. And a hospital will have far more than 2 FTEs for this (it's called Revenue Cycle Management).
gamblor956 | 11 hours ago
CWuestefeld | 35 minutes ago
Coding is a different layer. Everything needs coding, whether for gov't or commercial payers. So the folks doing this coding can't be separated out for commercial. In fact, it's kind of the opposite:
CPT codes (for procedures) - these are defined by AMA, but mandated by CMS (i.e., Medicare/caid). Because the gov't mandated them, the commercial payers adopted them too.
HCPCS codes (equipment and supplies) - defined by CMS.
ICD-10-PCS codes (hospital inpatient stuff) - defined by CMS.
mwwaters | 14 hours ago
tptacek | 12 hours ago
tptacek | 12 hours ago
Retric | 10 hours ago
The ideal long term strategy is to drive everyone’s costs to go up slowly over time slightly faster than inflation. Adding administrative burden to medical institutions is a perfect way to achieve that, but clearly that never happens…
[OP] rexroad | 15 hours ago
The surprise was nonprofit hospitals: median markup of 3.96x actual operating costs, versus 2.39x for for-profit and 1.87x for government hospitals. That's hard to square with the narrative that nonprofits deserve their tax exemptions ($28-37B/year) because they serve charitable purposes.
On the self-funded employer point — you're correct that self-funded plans have more negotiating latitude, and thousands of them already use reference pricing (capping hospital payments at a percentage of Medicare). That's actually the policy fix this analysis proposes. Montana Medicaid implemented it and saved $47.8M. The question is why it isn't the default.
franktankbank | 15 hours ago
digi59404 | 15 hours ago
So if United is the insurer they’re owned by an umbrella, that umbrella takes 20% or less. However United makes special deals and steers people to providers owned by the Umbrella. So that the Umbrella makes more money as well. This is true for medicine as well. For example Cigna requires all maintenance medication be purchased through express scripts as a means to retain or increase profit.
United has a history of also squeezing organizations by forcing them into pre-payment review when they’re high volume. This causes the providers to basically not have no revenue for months on end until it gets sorted. Then they might get a chunk or settle out of court. Often they go bankrupt and are purchased by the umbrella.
In terms of Medicare/Medicaid another catch-22 is that insurance handles the claims for providers. The insurance can recode claims and pocket the difference without telling the provider. It’s on the provider to catch it.
There is a tremendous amount of dark money, shadow games, hidden corporate structures, Wyoming and NM LLCs with Anonymous owners, etc.
Insurance as a whole tries to own the entire feedback loop for healthcare. They don’t like you going out of their feedback loop.
CGMthrowaway | 14 hours ago
>For example Cigna requires all maintenance medication be purchased through express scripts
Important note: Cigna owns Express Scripts. Today the biggest "insurance" companies are actually massive conglomerates that own the clinics, the doctors and the pharmacies. United = Optum. Aetna = CVS + Caremark. Humana = CenterWell. Elevance/Blue Cross/Anthem/Carelon. Centene = Envolve
Once a giant like United gets big enough in a city, say ~40% of the population, they lower the reimbursement rates for independent doctors and if the doctor refuses the contract, they are kicked out of network and lose 40% of their patients. Go bankrupt or sell to Optum.
Digi is also right about Medicare upcoding. It is a well-documented $$billions scam where Medicare Advantage insurers comb through patient records to add diagnostic codes making the patient look sicker on paper than they actually are so the government pays the insurer a higher flat rate for that patient.
bsjshshsb | 13 hours ago
lupire | 13 hours ago
actionfromafar | 13 hours ago
Spooky23 | 12 hours ago
tptacek | 12 hours ago
phil21 | 13 hours ago
Insurance as standalone entities are not much better or worse for total cost than these giant vertical monopolies. At least yet, thy are only recently becoming large enough to truly put the screws to people. Because insurance was not all that profitable made it prime targets for these sorts of shell game shenanigans.
It’s basically the point I was making. Fixing “insurance” isn’t a fix at all because the problem is far greater than just that layer of the onion. Costs are hidden and embedded and cross-subsidied to the point no one can unwind it without burning the entire thing to the ground. It’s grift from bottom to top. Aside from a few poor souls actually at the ground level who are still true believers trying to provide service to patients. And a lot of those are burning out. I think out of the 5 or 6 medical doctors I met while they were in medical school, only one is still practicing. They would now be late 30s to early 40s and in theory at the prime of their careers. Instead they got out as soon as medical school debt was paid off and moved onto other less stressful things. Another hidden cost in the shit-tier system rarely talked about.
I’m simply pushing back on the idea that the 20% medical loss ratio is the source of all (or even most) issues for the cost of healthcare or why insurance sucks so much to deal with. It’s nearly irrelevant.
AnthonyMouse | 14 hours ago
That's assuming price is the only variable.
Suppose one insurance company is accepted by more providers, including ones that might be closer (but pay higher real estate costs) or have nicer rooms etc. Meanwhile employers are looking for cost/benefit rather than just cost. If they give employees a better insurance plan they could pay them less or provide less of some other benefit and still get people to work there.
So before the insurance company didn't really care if you got a $10,000 plan or a $20,000 plan if they both had a $2200 margin, or if anything would prefer the former because they make the same money with lower costs. The employer is likewise fairly ambivalent as long as the more expensive plan seems like it's buying something (even if the something is convenience/luxury). But now the insurance company isn't allowed to have a $2200 margin on the first plan and still is on the second, so that's what they market, and then what more employers choose, resulting in higher average costs.
> Insurance providers also rarely operate at the full freight 20% either way though.
There are only really two options, right? Either the market is actually competitive and then a margin cap has no effect because competition would prevent margins higher than that regardless and the rule should be gotten rid of as totally redundant, or the market is less than perfectly competitive and then it does something but the something is a bad perverse incentive to raise costs to cheat the rule and it should be gotten rid of as actively harmful.
Spooky23 | 12 hours ago
thaumasiotes | 15 hours ago
(Is it a 60% discount? No; a 150% margin has to be explained in other ways. But the phenomenon is real and important.)
nradov | 15 hours ago
But at the same time, the business is still pretty competitive with the employers and consumers who purchase policies or rent networks being price sensitive. Employers will switch carriers to get a significant cost savings so that holds down prices (and carrier profits) to an extent. Most large employers (and unions) are now self-funded so the "insurance" company isn't actually bearing much risk, they just set up a provider network and process the claims.
Most doctors are almost completely ignorant about the broader issues of healthcare financing and medical economics so take anything you hear from your friends with a grain of salt. (And to be fair, it's not something we should expect them to be experts in.)
Aunche | 15 hours ago
> So insurance companies spend more so they can collect higher premiums.
This part is still true though. Insurers want you to consume more healthcare, so they'll happily pay for your chiropractor, acupuncturist, acne treatment, and Chanel gift bag [1]. Patients are happy with their benefits. Employers are happy with increasing employee retention in a tax advantaged way. Insurers are happy with the profit. Of course, you aren't going to see much health improvement from this though.
[1] https://nypost.com/2024/07/25/lifestyle/nyc-hospital-bills-3...
dmitrygr | 15 hours ago
lotsofpulp | 15 hours ago
If this is correct, then how come there are so many complaints about insurance denying payment for healthcare or the hoops they make patients and doctors jump through for pre authorizations?
If the path to more profit was spend more money, then there would be no reason to question a doctors’ orders? Nor threaten doctors and hospitals with leaving the network if they don’t agree to lower prices?
Yet, one often hears about so and so plan will not have so and so hospital system in network unless they come to an agreement.
rayiner | 14 hours ago
Because those anecdotes get reader and viewer engagement. Charts comparing how much U.S. insurers pay on average for common procedures compared to, say, the UK NHS, don’t drive forward the narrative.
You should interrogate the media sources you consume and ask why you’re fed so many stories like that, and investigate what the real data is. A few years ago my friend got a continuous glucose monitor for Type 2 diabetes. I looked at the coverage polices for continuous glucose monitoring (for Type 2) for my insurer and some of the other big ones. Turns out that most US insurers, Medicare, and Medicaid in 45 states+DC cover continuous glucose monitors for people who have type 2 even those that don’t use insulin. At the time, most Canadian provincial systems didn’t cover the technology except for Type 1 or people who take insulin. UK NHS was worse, covering it only for Type 1, or Type 2 with certain conditions (such as you’d otherwise need to do 8 or more pin prick tests a day). https://www.diabetes.org.uk/about-diabetes/looking-after-dia...
onraglanroad | 11 hours ago
Yes, you only get a continuous glucose monitor for free if you really need it on the NHS. If you want one otherwise you need to spend $100. It's not going to bankrupt you.
rayiner | 11 hours ago
The point isn’t that the UK NHS should cover CGM. I think they shouldn’t; it’s a waste of money unless you really need one. My point was about why the media pays so much attention to denials of coverage while you don’t hear about the over-coverage. You can’t go by the anecdotes. Talking about insurance covering unnecessary procedures doesn’t generate clicks.
nradov | 14 hours ago
lotsofpulp | 13 hours ago
This is not my experience as a buyer of health plans on healthcare.gov, or as a buyer of health plans as an employer (where the employer is not self insuring). The prior authorizations and denials happen all the same.
Additionally, the premiums are the same between employers’ self insured plans and healthcare.gov plans, so the coverage must be similar.
https://www.kff.org/health-costs/how-aca-marketplace-costs-c...
>In 2024, individual market insurance premiums averaged $540 per member per month, slightly below the average $587 per member per month premium for fully-insured employer coverage.
The idea that health insurers can simply spend more to earn more is not passing the smell test.
nradov | 12 hours ago
lotsofpulp | 11 hours ago
> Commercial insurers would be happy to sell plans that pay every claim that comes in at 100% with zero denials.
And yet I have never seen one of these after buying insurance in 3 different states.
Again, the grandparent claim was that insurance companies can increase profits simply by increasing their expenses. Yet there is no evidence of this, and the fact that everyone has to deal with approval and denial of healthcare coverage means it cannot be true.
nradov | 10 hours ago
lotsofpulp | 4 hours ago
> The actual reason commercial insurers pay more is that's the only way to can make more profits.
>Because of Obamacare requiring 80% of the money they collect to be spent, the insurance companies just get to keep 20%. So insurance companies spend more so they can collect higher premiums. That's how they make more money.
dmitrgyr wrote this:
> Ding Ding Ding. We have the correct answer. And this was a predicted consequence of that profit cap.
These statements indicate there should exist an insurance plan with a policy to pay for anything and everything. It does not matter what large self insuring employers choose to buy, as there are still significant number of people covered by non employer insured health plans.
Manuel_D | 15 hours ago
glenstein | 15 hours ago
pixl97 | 14 hours ago
CGMthrowaway | 14 hours ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averch%E2%80%93Johnson_effect
toomuchtodo | 14 hours ago
glenstein | 13 hours ago
adgjlsfhk1 | 13 hours ago
glenstein | 13 hours ago
phil21 | 13 hours ago
If those were malinvestments instead it’s simply throwing money away for not even a theoretical “someday” return. Plenty of ways to look busy while spending massive amounts of capital.
Generally agreed in principle though. Investment in the grid is pathetic almost everywhere in the US and has been for generations.
Manuel_D | 11 hours ago
omgJustTest | 15 hours ago
Insurers are also adding some %+ increase on premiums every year, which is taken as a % of their yearly spend, ie 2-3%.
ie (1+inflation)^N*(base_prem+overpay_prem_increase) = new_premium. The compounding of $ returned is pretty big on this.
That being said underwriting risk, under the law and avoiding correlated risks, is tough.
djoldman | 15 hours ago
More here:
https://healthcareuncovered.substack.com/p/self-dealing-ille...
etchalon | 15 hours ago
kshacker | 15 hours ago
I am going by very old memory of a few days/weeks of work, but it will be good for a medical system historian to chime in.
ropable | 14 hours ago
Those poor, benighted shareholders. What a socialist hellscape.
jandrewrogers | 14 hours ago
The unit costs of doing business with the US government are higher than with private companies even after accounting for economies of scale. The US government also requires that they pay the lowest price. Consequently, unit economics are usually worse when dealing with the government than when dealing with private companies.
The maths often don't math but the law doesn't care. Most inexplicable and bizarre pricing you see related to government procurement are structural tricks vendors use to indirectly fix the unit economics across their customers while technically staying compliant with bad regulations. Everyone else who is not the government is collateral damage of that byzantine theater.
Ideally, we would all drop the pretense that the US government deserves the lowest price just because they are very large, instead letting it reflect the true overhead cost.
Rury | 14 hours ago
SilverElfin | 14 hours ago
airstrike | 13 hours ago
0xbadcafebee | 13 hours ago
bandofthehawk | 13 hours ago
SV_BubbleTime | 13 hours ago
I love the particular irony of people who advocate for regulations then attempt refutation of free market theory for what is already unquestionably and objectively not a free market.
raincole | 13 hours ago
-- Charlie Munger
jmspring | 13 hours ago
noelsusman | 12 hours ago
If this were true then private insurers would have paid comparable rates to Medicare prior to the ACA passing, and that's just not the case. This fact has been a fixture of the US healthcare system since the creation of Medicare.
apical_dendrite | 11 hours ago
dominotw | 3 hours ago
did they not write unit tests for this when it was proposed to catch obvious subversions like you mentioned.
notfried | 16 hours ago
[1] https://www.managedhealthcareexecutive.com/view/health-syste...
hardtke | 15 hours ago
refulgentis | 15 hours ago
One note: the doctors won’t agree or want to hear this, as they too are human, but listen to how they talk about nurses. Hit me once I had both a CRNA (advanced nursing degree in anesthesiology) and an anesthesiologist friend
Edit: glad I did add an empty cosign, right after replying, the parent is now downvoted to gray. And gets it much, much, better info than any other comment, and I read all of them. Last thing I’ll throw out to back it up is, check into who decides how many seats there are at med schools. Can’t remember the exact name but it’s basically the doctors union / professional organization. AMA?
tacticalturtle | 15 hours ago
> However, new research by Stanford health economist Maria Polyakova and colleagues — using unique data on physician income — shows that physicians’ personal earnings account for only 8.6 percent of national health-care spending
https://siepr.stanford.edu/news/just-how-much-do-physicians-...
wat10000 | 14 hours ago
fhsm | 14 hours ago
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2...
sneak | 8 hours ago
It was bad even before COVID, it’s even worse now. There are tons of regulations prohibiting the significant increase in creating new doctors and nurses (and air traffic controllers, but that’s a different but remarkably similar story).
Limits on new providers, and tons of corrupt regulation keeping people from opening new medical schools, clinics, and hospitals.
A ton of it is simple supply and demand - and the supply side is capped. Go to a place with a functioning competitive market and the prices (and wages) are a fraction of what they are in the US.
tacticalturtle | an hour ago
In a source posted by another commenter, their wages are accountable for 5% of the difference.
I also don’t think it’s accurate to say regulations are what’s prohibiting an increase in nurses. They don’t have a government imposed mechanism like residency funding that creates a bottleneck like the one in medical training.
We have a nurse shortage because we have an aging population increasing demand, it’s a tough job, and people are leaving the profession.
rimbo789 | 16 hours ago
The layering on of profit margins causes costs to grow exponentially
conductr | 15 hours ago
There’s plenty of arguements about waste and executive compensation but when I was a healthcare CFO we had our financials separated where I could see individual hospital performance and all the executive/corporate stuff was separate and it still was an issue as basic capex was hard to keep up with in a hospital that had a low % of commercial patients.
kstrauser | 13 hours ago
But Medi care was right with the commercial insurers on reimbursement.
conductr | 12 hours ago
Medicare is as I described. Every specialty and procedure has its quirks though, some even make a killing on Medicare and not commercial but the hospital kind of represents a portfolio and the overarching economics in aggregate favor the commercial insurance. I’m guessing your wife’s specialty had decent Medicare rates but it’s not always true.
There’s even some private insurance which is effectively Medicare that has different reimburse ranges (Medicare advantage plans).
Executives like to lament the lose money on Medicare but I never really saw it that way. If you look at it isolated, sure it’s true. But if you look at it as a portfolio where your fixed costs are covered by another cohort, then it’s a huge volume to add and make money at the contribution profit line. You just have to be careful not to run fixed costs as a percentage of total revenues or something like that. The extra volume Medicare brings to a hospital or network of hospitals also has tremendous negotiating power for pharma, medical supplies and devices, etc.
mexicocitinluez | 2 hours ago
We're in the totally opposite boat. We actually prefer Medicare patients vs private insurance not only because of the reimbursement, but the way in which they reimburse us (one lump sum vs visit-by-visit auth that requires manpower to manage).
Some of the requirements can be onerous, but on the whole, they're easier to plan for than the private stuff.
conductr | 19 minutes ago
nradov | 11 hours ago
mexicocitinluez | 2 hours ago
As I said in another comment, I'm with a provider and Medicare is easily one of our best payors. We actually have contracts with private insurers that say they have to reimburse us at least 80-85% of what Medicare would. They also give us the money up front, with a public formula that we can count on vs. a hidden formula that requires us to go back for more auth (and thus needs more people to manage).
conductr | 17 minutes ago
graemep | 15 hours ago
The difference in life expectancy will be influenced by multiple factors and may have more to do with diet and lifestyle than with healthcare.
Japan also spends less per capita than the UK, France or Germany. The US spends a lot more than any of those so the US system is bad value for money.
hermanzegerman | 15 hours ago
PS: Outcomes here are not worse than those of rich people in the US, because I know some idiots will claim this to cope
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...
legitster | 14 hours ago
Both historically had private hospital systems, and just so happen to implement pension/employer-based insurance programs very early on. German's just evolved in one direction and the US evolved in the other.
hermanzegerman | 14 hours ago
And no, we didn't had a historically significant share of private hospital systems, those came with the introduction of the DRG System, which forced many city/church owned hospitals into privatisation.
Before that, they had a "Fixed Price per Night" System, which also was a bit stupid, before that they got reimbursed their cost.
graemep | 6 hours ago
legitster | 14 hours ago
Put another way, in both countries a hip replacement surgery is almost exactly 1/8 of someone's per capita GDP.
JKCalhoun | 13 hours ago
cj | 13 hours ago
bandofthehawk | 13 hours ago
bloppe | 12 hours ago
kakacik | 6 hours ago
twoodfin | 3 hours ago
edgyquant | 3 hours ago
ChadNauseam | 13 hours ago
golden-face | 12 hours ago
wonnage | 10 hours ago
So the USA is still significantly more expensive as a portion of actual income. “GDP per capita” is a relatively useless figure
graemep | 6 hours ago
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.GD.ZS?locat...
a_victorp | 5 hours ago
pjc50 | 3 hours ago
To some extent it's circular: the US has a higher number of GDP because it spends more on healthcare. The broken leg version of the broken window fallacy.
graemep | 25 minutes ago
pif | 3 hours ago
rayiner | 14 hours ago
Aurornis | 14 hours ago
The median equivalised household disposable income of a US household is over twice that of a household in Japan.
This is one of many reasons why it’s so misleading to compare prices across countries in a vacuum. All of the people doing the work for those education, transportation, and other services and all of their inputs aren’t going to work for Japan-equivalent pay when they’re living in the United States.
hollerith | 13 hours ago
glitchc | 9 hours ago
nradov | 14 hours ago
Dylan16807 | 13 hours ago
So that's about 6% of the difference? I'm not immediately saying no, but it sounds like that's not the real problem.
nradov | 11 hours ago
epicureanideal | 11 hours ago
AngryData | 6 hours ago
conductr | 11 hours ago
wonnage | 10 hours ago
conductr | 25 minutes ago
Black population in the US is still concentrated in neighborhoods formed by overt racism and segregation and same neighborhoods tend to be food desert where no healthy or even fresh options exists. Even if we taxed just the bad food, the lack of options and mobility that higher income might provide, basically means it’s something that would be seen as targeted. Not to mention, people will draw the most racist perception no matter how carefully you crafted the tax because race relations are always unfortunately weak and these correlations are being forced/drawn.
sethammons | 5 hours ago
bluGill | 3 hours ago
jimt1234 | 9 hours ago
dyauspitr | 9 hours ago
sneak | 8 hours ago
Self-control is, ironically, not usually within one’s self control.
Most people don’t contemplate very deeply about the gap between their will and their behavior. I’m extremely focused on self-determination and it’s absolutely astounding (and irritating) to me how little control I have over my actions relative to the control that circumstances have over me.
Your attitude about the matter is common, and seems like plain old common sense. It’s also dead wrong.
ptsneves | 5 hours ago
Problem solved. Next!
hdgvhicv | 4 hours ago
JumpCrisscross | 12 hours ago
These have to be purchasing power adjusted.
tjpnz | 10 hours ago
glitchc | 10 hours ago
AngryData | 6 hours ago
glitchc | 37 minutes ago
kdheiwns | 6 hours ago
The only reason you would pay that much is if you're visiting a private no-insurance clinic and not using insurance. And private clinics pretty much only exist to prey on people who identify as expats and make zero attempt at learning non-English languages, aside from a few exceptions (certain speciality dentists, plastic surgery, anonymous STD treatment, some cancers).
glitchc | 30 minutes ago
> The only reason you would pay that much is if you're visiting a private no-insurance clinic and not using insurance
What alternatives does a tourist have? If Japan truly had cheaper procedures, it would see a huge uptick in medical tourism. There's no doubt that Japan has state-of-the-art facilities and treatment options, comparable to the US. It's no surprise that costs are comparable too.
AngryData | 6 hours ago
dv_dt | 6 hours ago
phyzix5761 | 6 hours ago
pjc50 | 3 hours ago
"The discovery of Kato's remains sparked a search for other missing centenarians lost due to poor recordkeeping by officials. A study following the discovery of Kato's remains found that police did not know if 234,354 people over the age of 100 were still alive".
bojangleslover | 3 hours ago
helsinkiandrew | an hour ago
Less than 5% of Japanese are obese (BMI >30) compared with 36% of Americans, additionally 1 in 10 Americans are severely obese (BMI>35) whereas the number in Japan is negligible.
https://theworlddata.com/us-obesity-rate-compared-to-other-c...
etchalon | 15 hours ago
rybosworld | 15 hours ago
- Doctors and hospitals don't compete on price
- Prices aren't just opaque, they are unknowable
- Shopping around is not possible
- Insurer incentive is to maximize billing (cost). They pass along cost as increased premiums to an employer. Employer passes along increased costs to employee as below-inflation wage increases
danny_codes | 9 hours ago
Jensson | 7 hours ago
You think its a fluke and not intentional corruption of the system? These companies pays both parties a lot so nobody will ever fix this, that isn't a fluke that is just plain old corruption.
lotsofpulp | 4 hours ago
This is why even the meager amount of wealth redistribution we got (which was really young to old and not wealthy to poor) came about due to a fluke 6 months in 2009 that one party had 60 senate votes, and 58 or so votes supported a taxpayer funded option, but 42 did not, so the taxpayer funded option did not make it into the final bill.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_health_insurance_option
scotty79 | 15 hours ago
They have every incentive for the price to be as high as possible.
Such entity can't be left to utilize market forces for the same reason cancer can't be left to utilize human physiology.
underlipton | 14 hours ago
wat10000 | 14 hours ago
profsummergig | 14 hours ago
Willish42 | 14 hours ago
I cannot think of a more important skill than surgery to continue training humans to do and to be wary of AI robotics replacing. Sure, some surgeries could likely be automated, but the entire point of specialist surgeons is to make choices and act in a timely manner in ambiguous situations with extremely high stakes.
What happens when the robot messes up? What happens when the internet is down, or the hospital is operating under abnormal circumstances? How do you teach, train, and collaborate with human medical workers and caregivers in a world where surgeons have been replaced by robots?
Most of the excess costs for healthcare and surgery aren't the humans doing the work. I think there's a lot of other areas we can optimize first, chief among those in healthcare being the cost structure around private businesses and insurers bloating the bill with administrative costs. There's a reason every other developed nation has a single-payer healthcare system and better outcomes, and I don't think an AI breakthrough is the only plausible solution to improving costs in the US. In fact, under the current system, an AI breakthrough in medicine would likely hurt the workforce more than it would improve costs.
tonymet | 14 hours ago
legitster | 14 hours ago
https://randomcriticalanalysis.com/why-conventional-wisdom-o...
TL;DR: As people/countries get richer, a larger share of their money goes towards consumption. It's not just that Americans pay more for the same procedures (sometimes they do, sometimes it's just sticker prices) but we consume more healthcare the more money we make. So it skews costs up disproportionally. That wealth also enables chronic health and lifestyle problems that are expensive in their own right.
I'm not sure I'd buy the theory entirely, but it's very well argued and as a null hypothesis it makes a lot of sense.
dboreham | 14 hours ago
duskdozer | 11 hours ago
Jensson | 7 hours ago
Edit: I recognize that post now, he uses a special metric "actual individual consumption", which adds healthcare consumed by people as income. So the more expensive healthcare is, the more "actual individual consumption" you will have in the country. That is not the normal GDP metric, but using that special metric USA is on top since healthcare consumed there is so expensive.
krautburglar | 14 hours ago
qwertyuiop_ | 14 hours ago
programmertote | 14 hours ago
But doctors (a lot of them, not all) are complicit in this healthcare complex. American Medical Association is one of the top lobbying groups in D.C. They gate-keep the production of US doctors artificially low by making the candidates go through longer years of education (4 years of college before another 4 years of med school is an overkill for most doctors) compared to other developed nations, resulting in high compensations for doctors AND longer wait-time for patients (due to doctor shortage). They also put up regulation barriers and it requires a lot of certification and exams to become a doctor, so whoever becomes a doctor has the best interest to keep the system (status quo) going.
Average US doctor gets paid a lot more than their counterparts in other developed nations.
nradov | 14 hours ago
Panzer04 | 9 hours ago
kart23 | 7 hours ago
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12256077/
nomilk | 14 hours ago
If hospitals could be forced to publish price lists, it would be game changing, allowing patients to shop and compare quality/prices.
Trump vaguely mentioned he'd try to do something like this but it's not clear what he's attempting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PQ7l905aVM&t=10h57m30s
Maybe this? https://trumprx.gov/
nradov | 14 hours ago
https://www.cms.gov/priorities/key-initiatives/hospital-pric...
But at a consumer level it's still quite difficult to predict what your total out-of-pocket expense will be for the same course of treatment at two different facilities.
nomilk | 13 hours ago
paulmist | 10 hours ago
[1] https://puc.overheid.nl/nza/doc/PUC_789284_22/1/
nomilk | 14 hours ago
Sanctuary8542 | 14 hours ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland_hospital_payment_syst...
siliconc0w | 11 hours ago
linsomniac | 10 hours ago
bawana | 14 hours ago
0xbadcafebee | 13 hours ago
linehedonist | 13 hours ago
cozzyd | 12 hours ago
Mistletoe | 13 hours ago
WarmWash | 13 hours ago
Health care providers carry immense blame. It's full of passionless people in it for the outsized paychecks, who once inside will just seek whatever local minimum to stay employed.
DangitBobby | 13 hours ago
soared | 13 hours ago
WarmWash | 13 hours ago
Not saying nursing is stress free, or every nurse is bad, but like tech companies in 2021, it's full of directionless people who pushed through the cert program to get paid $50/hr with $100/hr weekend shifts and be disgruntled with you that you are making them do work.
shigawire | 11 hours ago
Patient populations are up, nursing FTEs down. Support staff down.
hermanzegerman | 8 hours ago
hermanzegerman | 8 hours ago
Nursing is one of the most physically and mentally demanding jobs I know of, at least in Germany.
And I bet 80% of the Techbros here wouldn't last a month in it, given how many lost their minds over a simple RTO-Mandate.
Maybe watch the movie "Late Shift" to get an idea of how a Workday is https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C7o-omvW_DI
I doubt that "directionless" people would put up with those working conditions, and many leave the sector after a few years, simply because they burn out. Nearly no one works 100% long-term, just because it's too much too.
WarmWash | an hour ago
So like you mentioned, it's very difficult and grueling work, and people (in the US at least) get trapped because of the money. Passionless souls doing something they hate because they'll lose their upscale home and Mercedes if they quit.
hermanzegerman | 28 minutes ago
Most of them care very much about what they do, and give everything they can for the patients. Otherwise they would have quit a long time ago. (I've had to do a 3-month nursing internship as part of my medical studies, it's mandatory in Germany)
Better staffing makes a day and night difference. I've experienced it first-hand as a doctor. The more overworked you are, the more cynical and unempathic you get.
After a weekend or some time off, it's already much better
In other countries with better staffing (Switzerland or Austria), it's a also very noticeable how much better the mood and morale is of the staff.
Nurses in Germany could never afford a Mercedes or an upscale home, but they would also probably make less, switching jobs. It's not that they don't love their job, they just can't take it anymore. You also rarely see old nurses for that reason.
WarmWash | 13 minutes ago
I hope you see that my point isn't that nursing is easy, my point is that (in the US) the pay is very high and the barrier to entry is moderate. So it becomes a magnet for people who just want to make money. This becomes even more true for med tech jobs, where you can blast through a cert in a year, and land a $30/hr job pretty quickly. That's about 50% more money than people typically in that education class earn.
IdiocyInAction | 11 hours ago
crazygringo | 11 hours ago
You're missing a very, very, very important piece here.
Which is that the lowest price of all is to deny treatment entirely.
They are not on your team, they are the opposite team. Their revenue is basically fixed, at the level of your premiums. But the more health care they pay for you to receive, the less profit they make. That's just arithmetic.
This is why there are so many horror stories of people being denied necessary treatment, or having to fight for months and years to get their treatment actually paid for. Insurance providers are incentivized to do their absolute best at taking your money and then not paying for care, through every sort of technicality and "mistake" and arbitrary judgment and limit they can come up with.
nradov | 11 hours ago
Spivak | 10 hours ago
nradov | 10 hours ago
crazygringo | 46 minutes ago
mindslight | 10 hours ago
This certainly isn't a defense of health "insurance" companies though! I just think they're better modeled as Lovecraftian horrors animated by paperwork and compelling the creation of ever more paperwork to feed on, rather than money-grubbing cheapskates as the pop-political narrative goes. And the approaches for fixing one are much different than the approaches for fixing the other.
niij | 11 hours ago
vkou | 10 hours ago
Why aren't the executives of these insurers shilling ghost networks not in prison for mail fraud?
unclad5968 | 10 hours ago
Insurance companies make plenty of money though. Cigna makes $7-8B per year and pays a decent dividend.
WarmWash | an hour ago
That's a D tier stock.
calebm | 13 hours ago
kstrauser | 13 hours ago
Source: owned a medical practice for over 20 years, and was staff engineer at a company that processed medical bills.
busterarm | 12 hours ago
Yearly physical exams are much more thorough in Japan. Unless you are optimally fit, you will be prescribed lifestyle changes to make and there is a strong expectation that you will work hard on these. Your employer will be involved. There is _tremendous_ social pressure if you are overweight.
Healthy food options are ubiquitous there with healthy and cheap meals available 24/7. Combini food certainly has bad options but nothing compared to American fast food or the American diet generally.
There are other health problems that are significantly overrepresented in Japan compared to the western world. Alcohol, smoking and stress-related illnesses. Liver & Kidney diseases. Peptic ulcers, GI problems in general.
tptacek | 12 hours ago
The problem, though, with going after pharma costs, and pharma benefit managers is that pharma is a relatively small component of overall spending; it's less than 10%. That is to say, you could make all pharmaceuticals entirely free, and we'd get at best a 10% discount on what we pay. I don't think any of us would be satisfied with that!
This is data from the most recent (as of last year) CMS NHE:
https://nationalhealthspending.org/
sudopsuedo | 11 hours ago
No comment on drug pricing and its incentives, the existence of America's prescription drug markets drives the new innovative drugs that the rest of the world picks up for cheap.
tptacek | 11 hours ago
I think if we dig into the numbers we're likely to find those effects, even if we maximize them, are marginal, unless we do other structural things to untangle the provider pricing system and do price transparency. Like: you could posit a material impact on CVD costs by making statins more widespread, and that should make a dent somewhere, but I don't know that CVD costs in non-Medicare-insured patients are really that big a line item, and non-Medicare is important here because people already Medicare-qualified generally have all the statins they want already. Meanwhile, providers are still ripping patients (and insurers) faces off for shoulder impingements, stents, and spinal fusions.
It's a super interesting comment. Thanks!
onraglanroad | 11 hours ago
That's the ludicrous propaganda that you've been fed but you really should be intelligent enough to dismiss it.
The world would get along just fine without you overpaying for your drugs. You pay for marketing costs.
nine_k | 11 hours ago
standardUser | 9 hours ago
In a sane world - or literally any other country - that $300-$500 million in annual lobbying would be the literal difference that makes medicine accessible for those who need it. Instead, it goes to expensive lunches.
thrwaway55 | 8 hours ago
phyzix5761 | 6 hours ago
thrwaway55 | 6 hours ago
dv_dt | 6 hours ago
e.g. is all the "discount coupon" pharmacy rigamarole considered marketing or administration.
mdorazio | 3 hours ago
[1] https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/CIK-0000078003/908eb6a...
dv_dt | 2 hours ago
duped | 9 hours ago
But anyway we really do need to go after providers and end the racket that is employer provided health insurance.
tptacek | 9 hours ago
dv_dt | 5 hours ago
kasey_junk | 4 hours ago
If people chose and directly paid for there own medical bills and insurance then extra fees and extra diagnostics would be born directly by the person paying for it, who would have the freedom to make other choices, like picking insurance providers who were better at preventing it.
At least that’s an argument you can reasonably make. I’m not sure it would hold up in practice given how different medicine is from other markets.
nativeit | 12 hours ago
pfdietz | 11 hours ago
If what we defined as care was constant, it would get cheaper over time. But it doesn't stay constant.
andai | 11 hours ago
IntrepidPig | 2 hours ago
joaohaas | 2 hours ago
The entire repo reeks of a "Write an extensive analysis comparing the american and japanese medical care systems" prompt.
Not saying all the findings are invalid, but most of them are just the LLM trying to justify it, like the life expectancy one.
umvi | 11 hours ago
Is Japan's life expectancy because of its healthcare or culture? I'm pretty sure Americans would not live to the same age as Japanese even with Japanese healthcare because of our low nutrition high sugar diets...
tptacek | 11 hours ago
bcooke | 11 hours ago
One underlying, perverse incentive behind many of the problems is that insurers are regulated based on percentages of spending rather than total costs.
The US passed laws meant to limit marketing and overhead that tied insurers economics to the size of the overall medical bill... which means as healthcare spending rises, the dollars they’re allowed to retain can rise too, which basically means they're incentivized to drive costs up rather than down.
Here's a link to the book: https://www.helmpublishing.com/products/an-american-sickness...
hattmall | 9 hours ago
Taikonerd | 25 minutes ago
Yes, this is an important piece of the puzzle. The "medical loss ratio" for large insurers (the kind we all know and love) is set to 85%. So they can keep up to 15% of their revenue as profit.
As you said, if total spending goes up, they get 15% of a larger number.
edgarvaldes | 11 hours ago
joe_the_user | 10 hours ago
turlockmike | 10 hours ago
danny_codes | 9 hours ago
Yeah no thanks, let’s do the tried and true universal healthcare that literally every else does. They get better results AND it’s cheaper. We’re literally paying more for something worse.
linsomniac | 10 hours ago
Last year this podcast said that nobody wants to solve this because solving it is going to eliminate (IIRC) hundreds of thousands of jobs. Which is a point to consider.
In 2021, the U.S. spent $1,055 per capita on healthcare administration, while the second-highest country — Germany — spent just $306 per capita, Japan is $82. https://www.pgpf.org/article/almost-25-percent-of-healthcare...
Administrative spending accounts for between 15% and 30% of total medical spending, with lower estimates covering only billing- and insurance-related expenses, and higher ones including general business overhead such as quality assurance, credentialing, and profits. https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/hpb20220909.830296/
The Center for American Progress estimates that health care payers and providers in the United States spend about $496 billion annually on billing and insurance-related (BIR) costs alone. https://www.americanprogress.org/article/excess-administrati...
The time burden on physicians is staggering — estimated at $68,000 per physician per year spent dealing with billing-related administrative matters. https://www.pgpf.org/article/almost-25-percent-of-healthcare...
jimt1234 | 9 hours ago
The nightmare isn't just for her; it's also for her patients. She now spends almost as much time walking her patients through the insurance bureaucracy than she spends on actual treatment. And it's so sad because her patients are so desperate (parents of extremely sick children), but often get nothing but bureaucratic run-around from their private insurers.
So yeah, it's been a lose-lose situation since private insurance took over.
heyitsmedotjayb | 8 minutes ago
joe_mamba | 5 hours ago
That's the reason why a lot of inefficiencies are kept in countries around the world: it keeps people employed and moves money through the economy. If broken things were suddenly to be made efficient overnight, the government wouldn't be able deal with masses of angry people/voters suddenly out of a job.
missingdays | 5 hours ago
roenxi | 5 hours ago
Literal overnight change might be too radical (although, frankly, I'd want to see some academic work on the matter because it sounds like it might work - typically the problem seems to be that the body politic tries every alternative but good policy first then blames the mess on freedom) but people who are scared of rapid improvement because they don't like change are a massive threat to human prosperity and really shouldn't be left in charge of anything important.
Delaying the industrial revolution was never a good choice at any point in human history. The potential gains from efficiency are unbelievably large.
joe_mamba | 4 hours ago
Keeping people employed through inefficient bullshit jobs is better for the government than paying them to sit at home, since this way you have control over their livelihoods and their votes.
pif | 3 hours ago
joe_mamba | 2 hours ago
This is some idealist fairytale view that people like to believe in but doesn't actually exist.
bigfudge | an hour ago
cycomanic | 3 hours ago
andrepd | 3 hours ago
friendzis | 4 hours ago
Having had my share in the administrative part of the medical field, that figure is most probably somewhat misleading. Every time you deal with billing you are bound to deal with granularity. On one extreme you could bill per case, on the other extreme you can count the paperclips used. It could seem at the first glance that the more you move towards the latter, the more time has to be spent by someone to somehow eventually form the invoice.
However, this surface-level conclusion misses the fact that patient care does not start and stop at the the operating room door. Some processes mandate transparency/traceability and thus documenting what's being done and used is part of the process anyway. [edit: the final deliverables are not a treated patient, but rather a treated patient and documentation complete with medicine authorizations / prescriptions (including for drugs used internally), sick-leave certificates, etc.]. That data is then effectively reused for billing, with minimal overhead hopefully. Yes, there's a lot of room for improvement and automatization, but activities not directly related to active care make up a sizable portion of the time.
mlrtime | 3 hours ago
https://apps.schools.nyc/dsbpo/sbag/default.aspx?DDBSSS_INPU...
apical_dendrite | an hour ago
projektfu | an hour ago
gorbachev | 2 hours ago
Yet we're ok with spending trillions on AI to eliminate jobs everywhere, including healthcare.
I don't think that's the reason.
Personally I'm of the opinion the reason it isn't being solved, is because the people whose job it would be to solve it get to keep their jobs due to donations from pharma and insurance companies.
steveBK123 | 2 hours ago
One thing which is not terribly popular to point out is that at least on procedure pricing - wages are way way higher here. Some of that is that education is far more expensive so then we need to pay very well to pay that down. Also we have a cartel that limits the number of medical graduates.
NYC have been striking and to quote the union-friendly NYT "The three hospital systems affected by the strike said their nurses on average make about $160,000 a year and are seeking raises that could propel nurses’ salaries on average past $200,000, according to the hospitals."
By comparison UK pays nurses like US blue state fast food workers. Per google - "Average nurse salaries in London are the highest in the UK, generally ranging from £37,000 to £55,000 per year." Note NYC minimum wage is at $17/hr though many hospitality workers in the $20s, with a renewed Mamdani push to $30/hr minimum.
And US tax rates at these 3-4x higher compensation levels are same/lower than the UK..
Then add Americans having generally unhealthier lifestyles, being more litigious requiring higher malpractice insurance, etc..
bigfudge | an hour ago
helsinkiandrew | an hour ago
Healthcare is nearly 20% of GDP (and growing), so administration is 3%-6% of the US economy!
heyitsmedotjayb | 11 minutes ago
Why not simply hire them to do something that isn't pointless - like dig ditches or clean garbage
nullpoint420 | 8 minutes ago
novok | 10 hours ago
paulmist | 10 hours ago
hax0ron3 | 9 hours ago
To be fair, I was not born in America. So it is possible that it's not that American food is actually subpar, it's just that I became used to particular nuances of how certain foods taste back when I was a child and I do not get that from most American food, and to Americans their produce tastes extremely delicious. I'm pretty skeptical of this idea though. My hunch is that I'm not experiencing some sort of chemical nostalgia, and that American produce actually isn't very good.
RFK Jr. successfully made some of this kind of stuff a minor campaign issue in the most recent US presidential election, so whatever one thinks about RFK Jr., at least it seems that there is some demand for food production reforms in the US electorate.
sobjornstad | 59 minutes ago
Someday I should go buy some produce from each store at peak season and try them side by side.
paulmist | 10 hours ago
zdc1 | 10 hours ago
dzink | 9 hours ago
sethammons | 5 hours ago
jeffreyrogers | 9 hours ago
Ethnic Japanese in the US live have about the same life expectancy as Japanese living in Japan do (within 1 year). US GDP per capita is about 2.4x Japan's. So the numbers don't look nearly as bad when you adjust for that. The higher drug prices in the US are definitely part of it, part of it is our population is less healthy in general (fatter, worse diet, more drug and alcohol abuse), but part of it is Baumol's cost disease[0]. Biggest barrier to lowering healthcare costs in the US is it probably requires paying doctors, nurses, etc. significantly less and most of them work hard and feel like they deserve to be paid as well as they do.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect
Edit: to some extent high US drug prices are a public good that subsidizes healthcare for the rest of the world. I don't know the data but I would guess the US is responsible for a disproportionate share of new drugs.
jimt1234 | 9 hours ago
I'm curious to read that. I worked for a PBM back in the 90s/early-2000s. When I was hired, it was just a job; I had no idea what the business did to make money. After working there a few years and learning - well, I would've felt better about myself if I had become an actual drug dealer, selling cocaine and meth. That's not a huge exaggeration.
slashtom | 8 hours ago
Choosing US versus Japan, which Japan has the lowest cost and highest life expectancy in the OECD, it's cherry picking. I'd recommend showing the full distribution of OECD per-capita spending rather than just a single cherry picked comparison.
This also is troubled by McNamara Fallacy, we're looking at metrics that are qunatifiable but ignoring what can't be measured or overlooked, is speed of access being considered, how about innovation incentives, quality and outcomes variation across systems, patient choice and flexibility, in addition to workforce compensation (nurses and physicians in the US earn significantly more). Where are the trade-offs?
Summary Statistics can be dangerous. 254% of medicare is a single ratio summarizing enormous variation across thousands of hospitals and procedures. Median markup of 3.96x inherently hides the distribution, some hopsitals may be higher or lower, why is that?
I think the biggest one to me was the confirmation bias, the $3 trillion gap that represented 'fixable waste' was the conclusion. Every price difference is interpreted as waste rather than investigating the potential cost drivers, was there a null finding framework in place where US spending appears justified or is it all bad?
Overall, glad someone is looking into the data and pulling insights, please don't take this as discouragement just a comment from the peanut gallery.
socalgal2 | 7 hours ago
Japanese, as a whole, have a vastly different diet than the average USAian. As a whole, they are far less obese, eat far less diary products, over eat less, eat less meat, etc... Again, not saying that's the reason but it's a possibility. USA = 2500 calories a day. Japan = 2000 calories a day. Japan = 3% obese. USA = 33% obese.
Next up is exercise. Sure, lots of people in the country live in rural areas and drive a car. But some large portion of the population does the majority of their commuting and shopping by walk/bus/train/bicycle. That means that on average, Japanese get more far more exercise than the average USAian. Japan gets ~25% more exercise on average
I'd suspect these 2 (3)? are the major reason Japanes live longer. (1) they get more exercise (2a) they don't over eat (2b) they eat healther foods.
Anyway, the point is, the post should arguably not be putting such a specious statement at the top. It suggests the rest is probably just as specious
TrackerFF | 7 hours ago
If you're less active, eat worse, throwing more money at fixing the symptoms will not fix the underlying problem.
Not saying that Americans aren't paying outrageous amounts compared to others, but when comparing these things, I think it makes more sense to look at countries with population more similar to US.
tsoukase | 7 hours ago
999900000999 | 5 hours ago
Americans don't want cheaper healthcare.
We've collectively decided the nightmare of employer based health insurance is a good idea.
Single payer healthcare will never happen.
Imagine if you will an Apple farmer willing to supply an entire town for a set amount per person.
One town, call it NordicTown says this is a great idea. Everyone chips in.
Another town, Jamestown has lively debate on the issue, but half the population believes unworthy people will get apples.
Since it's the policy that if anyone who shows up at the apple market starving they'll always get an apple, the apple farmer figures out they can bill the town for whatever they want.
Jamestown then ends up implementing special taxes to pay for poorer people to have apples. They could actually extend this to cover everyone without raising taxes.
But this will never happen. Someone you consider lazy might get a free apple. So you gladly pay 3 times as much.
Everyone in America is a single expensive illness away from ruin. We like living in a dystopian nightmare where you have to pick between medicine, a car note and rent.
Did I mention Jamestown residents who relay on free apple programs regularly vote against free apples?
bojangleslover | 5 hours ago
On the other side, if it were fully capitalist you would be able to see the price and walk away if you didn't like it. This is what makes capitalism work. Your margin is my opportunity. Instead, the upper middle class, who pays for everything already, and is unable to use Medicaid, is forced to use a certain "network" of providers and never, ever sees the price upfront. This is the cornerstone of capitalism. Does the buyer like the price? If so, transact. It's completely not there. Instead, it's actively discouraged and banned, and the price is maximized post-hoc by the same entities who negotiate directly with the employee's employer. Ie, a quantitative shakedown.
TheOtherHobbes | 5 hours ago
As for walking away - it's hard to do that if you're dying or unconscious.
And of course corporate capitalism always collapses to cartels and monopolies.
The idea that a free market optimised for consumer competition is a mythology, not a reality.
Markets compete for shareholder returns, not customer satisfaction. Customers are only ever a convenient source of profit with inconvenient expectations of service quality and cost.
Doable0896 | 5 hours ago
That is a crazy thing to say. Not saying that it can't be true, but a socialist system doesn't mean automatically long wait lists.
Ylpertnodi | 4 hours ago
No. Wouldn't wait times are dictated by supply (doctors) and demand (patients), not the political system?
petesergeant | 5 hours ago
TuringNYC | 4 hours ago
Sometimes it is easier to just pay cash without insurance altogether. You need the medication today and dont have two weeks to fight it out with letters and forms, then it definitely doesnt count towards your deductible (and also, what is the purpose of the pharmacy coverage insurance?)
cmiles8 | 3 hours ago
When these Rx cards and Marc Cuban CostPlus drugs came out where you just pay cash and a fraction of the price I thought there must be some catch or scam here. But turns out no, they’re just cutting out all the middleware bloat and selling you the meds at a defensible markup plus their logistics costs. Love what these guys are doing.
The fact that something like that even exists highlights how corrupt and broken the health insurance companies have become. It’s their job to get better prices at scale and yet somehow they manage to sell at prices far worse that Joe Blogs off the street can get with cash.
In many ways the quality of care in the US is far better than what folks get elsewhere, which in part is probably why there isn’t a total patient rebellion, but the US’s challenges are all rooted in massive administrative overhead. If we got rid of that and had a lean system where healthcare providers can do their job without interference there would be plenty of money to go around for amazing care at lower cost.
Turskarama | 3 hours ago
How sure of this are we really? Other countries mostly have problems with emergency departments being full, but that's less because those emergency departments are worse and more because in the US people aren't going, they just stay home and hope they don't die.
alexfoo | 2 hours ago
It doesn't really matter how much money you have if you have a broken leg as you'll be queuing up with everyone else for the triage and initial treatment.
I have amazing private healthcare coverage in the UK through my employer. I've had certain treatments done in under a week where the NHS waiting lists for the same procedure are measured in years.
But if I have a serious acute illness, or break a bone, my private healthcare can't help other than give me a telephone appointment with a doctor within 10 minutes at which point they'll say "What are you doing calling us? Go to the emergency department now!"
After the initial triage/treatment/stabilisation there may be a different pathway for people with private healthcare, but the doors of the emergency department are the first port of call for pretty much everyone who is in dire need.
(I'm sure for people who are seriously rich there are private arrangements, most people with serious money have doctors/dentists/etc on retainer, but these are the 0.001%)
dabiged | 2 hours ago
We have private emergency rooms. We call them urgent care and you can go and see a qualified physician with allied health services (radiology, pathology). If they can fix you up they will. If not you get transferred via ambulance to the nearest public hospital and triaged as required.
I took my kid to one last weekend as they had been diagnosed by our family Dr as having pneumonia. The emergency physician ordered chest x-ray and full suite of pathology and we had results in less time than we would have waited in the public hospital waiting room. Yes we paid.
youknownothing | 2 hours ago
Sate-sponsored universal healthcare is amazing, I love the concept, but it also means that they have to run it like a very stingy HMO. They have a rulebook and they go by it, if your case is even the slightest out of their parameters, tough luck. And don't you dare ask for a second opinion, you'll get the doctor that has been assigned to you and accept whatever they tell you. I could bore you with countless stories of doctors who have used tricks not to provide service and make it look like it was the patient's fault.
The problem with private healthcare is that profits corrupts it. The problem with public healthcare is that politics corrupts it. There is no good solution.
nicoburns | 2 hours ago
gnz11 | an hour ago
avhception | 39 minutes ago
9x39 | 20 minutes ago
Nothing's perfect, but the plan differences seem stark. For example, my wife had a crappy marketplace plan and I had a plan through my employer. For her, an MRI was denied, denied, then finally approved with many calls. For me, it was approved immediately. For her, pre-auth to a specialist was denied until her doctor went and tried a different referral strategy. For me...well, I haven't been denied yet. It goes on - same city, same hospital, some of the same referrals, etc.
I've come to think the price discrimination really does mean we have class-based care which seems to allow for the sensationalism. Combine a dire scenario with a working or indigent class American, and they don't have to exaggerate much at all.
biophysboy | 25 minutes ago
some_random | an hour ago
PaulHoule | 2 hours ago
anon7000 | 2 hours ago
Maybe on paper, in reality their job is to return as much profit as possible to shareholders. Convoluted bureaucracy, complicated regulations, layers of useless middlemen… they all help to reduce competition and increase profits. There are industries where the “free” market doesn’t work, partly because “human well-being” is a non-goal for any health insurance company. The entire point of the insurance business model is to avoid paying for it as much as possible
hammock | 47 minutes ago
In the FY26 omnibus bill passed by Congress and signed last month by Trump is the most aggressive federal crackdown on PBMs in history. Starting in 2028 it bans PBMs from taking a percentage cut, which is exactly what incentivized them to drive up the sticker price of your meds. It forces PBMs to pass 100% of the rebates and discounts they negotiate directly to employer health plans, stopping them from pocketing the savings. And PBMs are now mandated to provide detailed semiannual reports exposing their "spread pricing" (charging the plan more than they pay the pharmacy) and their shady practices of steering patients only to pharmacies they own
Also to do what Mark Cuban did but on a national scale, the federal govt launched TrumpRx.gov, a direct-to-consumer federal platform that completely cuts out the PBMs and insurance deductibles you're talking about , allowing people to buy dozens of the most popular meds for an average of 50% off.
Finally one benefit from the threats of tariffs has been that companies like Pfizer caved and signed landmark deals with the US to offer their drugs at “most favored nation” prices to Medicaid and directly to consumers
alexfoo | 3 hours ago
There’s so much rampant profiteering in the US healthcare system it’s unbelievable. Other countries look at it from afar in utter disbelief. I’m glad I had no serious health problems when I lived there 25 years ago (and I had health insurance via my employer).
In the UK prescriptions are effectively capped at about USD125 per year:
https://www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/help-nhs-prescription-costs/nhs-pr...
I recently collected 4 prescriptions from my local pharmacy (3 for temporary conditions, the other one was ADHD meds which I’ll be on for the foreseeable future) and the pharmacy didn’t even want to see proof of my prepayment certificate, I just said I had one and they ticked the relevant box and handed me the prescriptions.
(The implication is that the NHS will check this and come after me if I was lying.)
Don’t get me wrong, there’s lots wrong with the UK healthcare system but the access to regular medication has very few barriers.
arethuza | 2 hours ago
alexfoo | 2 hours ago
The regional differences are quite odd.
I got my ADHD diagnosis via Right-To-Choose, so it is considered an NHS diagnosis and I get my medication via the NHS (and therefore cheap). But the RTC pathway isn't available in Wales/Scotland/NI. I'd either have to wait years for an NHS diagnosis or go private and then have to pay £££ for my prescriptions privately.
The UK system has many problems but at least the general population are shielded from the exorbitant individual costs. We pay for it through general taxation but that, at least, spreads the load a bit.
akpa1 | an hour ago
Definitely not cheap (I would prefer the £9.90 NHS prescription fee) but I get the feeling that it's cheaper than I would pay elsewhere in the world anyway.
onlyrealcuzzo | 2 hours ago
You can eliminate most of the problem by mandating true cost billing by hospitals (get rid of their insurance mandated 500%+ markups to make it look like your insurance does anything at all besides make your care as costly as possible).
As you said, it's oftentimes cheaper to buy drugs without insurance.
The average person would quickly find out that insurance doesn't pay for anything at the hospital (most of the time).
~80% of healthcare spending is already at the tail end, and the state already covers most of that through Medicare and Medicaid.
The bottom ~50% of spenders (healthy people) only spend ~3% in total of healthcare (~$900 per year per person, about 1 month's PREMIUM).
Health insurance is a MASSIVE tax on the bottom ~3% of spenders (~50% of the population), when the state ALREADY covers the vast majority of people that need covered for tail end expenses.
Think about this: the MEDIAN adult in the US pays <$1k in personal income tax! Yearly health care premiums (that do nothing) are 3x that! 75%+ of the median person's true tax is going to health insurance that does NOTHING for them.
We already have the European model. Health insurance as it is is a tax. It just could not be designed to function more poorly than it does for the average healthy worker.
It benefits literally no one besides the health insurance industry which does not employ that many people, and is not strategically important for national security.
If the state completely covered the tail, and we had true billing at hospitals, almost no one would need or want insurance besides people that already have it through Medicare and Medicaid.
mekdoonggi | 2 hours ago
If the US had the equivalence of Canadian health insurance, the spending reduction would be so big, that as a working person, your health insurance bill would go to zero, out of pocket costs to zero, and everyone would have health insurance.
Projectiboga | an hour ago
onlyrealcuzzo | an hour ago
The Medical Loss Ratio (MLR) requirement established by the Affordable Care Act (ACA) is 20%.
Typically it's closer to 15%.
As these are private companies, some percentage of that is obviously profit.
It doesn't cost that much more to run private insurance than Medicare.
The problem is the incentive of insurance to drive up cost to get a larger fixed cut, and the lack of a public option (which would require private insurance to actually be worth it).
46493168 | an hour ago
See, for example, “Dying of Whiteness: How the Politics of Racial Resentment Is Killing America’s Heartland” by Jonathan Metzl
some_random | an hour ago
46493168 | an hour ago
mekdoonggi | an hour ago
onlyrealcuzzo | an hour ago
I strongly think that covering everyone in the existing system is not the best way to go.
The existing system is designed to cost as much as possible, and we have way too much demand for treatment (as is) and not enough supply. ER wait-times aren't 2-4 hours just because.
First, that needs to break.
Then, you can cover everyone.
We simply do not have enough doctors for how many old and unhealthy people we have. We should be thinking about how to keep people from going to the hospital that don't really need to be there. Do you really need to go to the ER because you stubbed your toe? If you didn't have insurance, you'd go to a low-cost clinic and get the same treatment for 1/10th the price.
We are slowly getting there already. Low cost clinics weren't widely available, but they are becoming more and more available as the cost of health care even WITH insurance is too high for most people.
The infrastructure for the bottom ~50% of people needs to exist to break free from a system that is not designed for them BEFORE they can move off it.
It's almost there.
Since One Medical became widely available, I basically have not gone to the hospital in 5+ years. Before, you kind of needed to go even for routine things (or at least I didn't know of a viable alternative). More and more places like this are springing up all over the US.
throwaway173738 | an hour ago
I hate to break it to you but insurance is meant to be a tax on the entire risk pool. What changed after the ACA is we couldn’t kick anyone out of the risk pool for getting sick.
Taikonerd | 35 minutes ago
Most Medicare recipients do get supplementary private insurance though? It's called "Medigap."
Medicare pays for 80% of patients' costs, but even the remaining 20% is a lot. (You get a $100,000 procedure -- you're on the hook for $20,000.) That's why people get Medigap coverage.
mekdoonggi | 22 minutes ago
In a Medicare-for-all scenario, the individual price of a given procedure doesn't need to be so high, because the reimbursement is guaranteed. Right now, the "list" price of the procedure has to be high to subsidize the uninsured and Medicaid who lose money.
I'm sure there are single payer health insurance countries in which people still purchase insurance, which should inspire debate about the universal insurance cost-sharing.
Regardless, the only viable solution in the US is a single payer insurance model.
throwaway173738 | an hour ago
whatever1 | 4 hours ago
turbotim | 3 hours ago
elgertam | 4 hours ago
However, that isn't enough. US healthcare is wildly inefficient because the paying customer is different than the serves customer. This has been known for sixty years, since Arrow published his paper (he identified four reasons, three of which are not exclusive to healthcare and seem to be mitigated well in other industries). I'm surprised people posting can't quite see this: when you go to the doctor, would you call the experience efficient? You check in, then wait, then are called back, tell the nurse or PA why you're there, wait, see the provider who asks you again why you're there, has a short exam, wait, finally get all the paperwork and sign out.
If you have labs or tests, you then wait again. And of course if you need a specialist, you wait again, sometimes for months. If you need any sort of "specialty" medication or equipment, then you REALLY wait, as specialty pharmacies, DMEs and the like jump in.
The whole system is woefully inefficient, and overhead is only a part of the explanation. No one knows what anything costs, and the people who pay (insurance providers, the largest of which is the US Government) want to believe they're not getting scammed - they still are, but at an acceptable level.
The question we ought to ask is how we can buy better health outcomes for people. And I think part of the answer is that in most cases, individuals and families themselves must allocate resources they control to make this happen.
Vinnl | 3 hours ago
klipt | 3 hours ago
cycomanic | an hour ago
That said I don't think there's evidence that lack of doctors is what is driving up cost in the US. Just an example, growth in hospital administrators has significantly outpaced medical staff over the last decades, which will directly increase cost.
bluGill | 3 hours ago
people often remember things when asked latter. this gives more opportunity to ask about everything you care about even if you forget the first time.
people sonetimes grab the wrong chart. This helps ensure that they check for things that matter to you and not someone else - your history is on the chart if they are watching you for something weird in you history this is important.
speefers | 3 hours ago
spend more money. you DO live in the greatest country on the planet, surely if an american citizen cannot raise the funds for healthcare, in what country can you expect to?
snarf21 | an hour ago
The #1 thing we need to do is make it illegal for your healthcare to be tied to your employment. We can still have your employer provide a X% or $Y to an HSA account that the employee can buy health coverage wherever they like. (I'm not optimistic that this will ever happen politically)
The issue today is that NOT healing you makes everyone more money, like a LOT more. There is no incentive for anyone to help people get healthy just to have a different insurance company benefit from the decreased claims.
This is also the only way forward to value based care (for primary) where doctors (providers et al) can take on the risk/reward. They get some amount (say $1K ??) per year and they keep it and submit no claims. However, if there costs go above, they eat it loss. Now the doctor and the insurance company (payer) are all incentivized to get and keep people healthy.
baggachipz | 54 minutes ago
I learned a while back that there are two industries you should never ever touch as a startup:
- Healthcare
- Education
Both systems are so broken (for different reasons) that it's a fool's errand.
Taikonerd | 39 minutes ago
Doesn't this already partly exist? My (US) employer offers an HDHP (high-deductible health plan) that comes with an HSA.
(It's not quite what you described, because you have to use the insurer that the company picked. I think you're describing something more like the Singaporean system with Medisave.)
philipallstar | 3 hours ago
This is what pays for future drug research for the world.
jdub | 3 hours ago
philipallstar | 2 hours ago
pif | 3 hours ago
ArtDev | 3 hours ago
MrBuddyCasino | 2 hours ago
https://randomcriticalanalysis.com/2018/11/19/why-everything...
tlb | an hour ago
superxpro12 | 53 minutes ago
Im sure big-pharma has an interest in over-medicating too, but that should be solved by transparent pricing.
It still blows my mind i cant window shop hospital procedures.
The opaque-ness of medical billing in the US only further favors the for-profit insurance company margins.
Burn it all down. Single-payer for all. I really have zero sympathy for insurance companies who pride themselves on denying their paying clients life-saving care in favor of shareholder returns. It's such a crazy moral hazard that really highlights a sickness in America.
ferguess_k | 45 minutes ago
Ancient Chinese wisdom: "People praise doctors who delay the progression of incurable diseases but not those who prevent them".
virgil_disgr4ce | 41 minutes ago
Taikonerd | 33 minutes ago
Doctors and other providers bill for each individual thing they do. But that means that their incentive is to do as much as possible, so they can quickly rack up billable codes.
It's like if developers billed their employer per line of code they wrote: the incentive is for churn, when it should be for slowing down and thinking about quality.