Its insane that Europe would even consider accommodating them. The short term pain might be real; but look at the alternative. Just in this particular example we can already see the inevitable outcome: give starlink unfettered access. Let it further its monopolistic interests. Then watch when they proceed to use that exact same position to throttle network access every time they want extra payola. Look at Ukraine…
It's oftentimes better to just play along, let MAGA lunatics have some political victory, and move to decouple in the long term. The US is all about political theatrics.
As a Canadian, I agree with maybe half of what Carney does, but credit where it's due, he might be the only Western world leader who knows how to deal with Trump.
If Trump had a greater attention span it would be, but he flits from fight to fight trying to bully everyone and moving on to the next perceived victim when he gets push back. Better to stand up to him now
It might also be worth considering that in places where politicians are actually somewhat beholden to their population then MAGA appeasement doesn't look great for their next campaign run.
It destroys your own side's pride. Without pride you can't have hype. Without hype you can't have investment.
To give someone victories of this sort is to say "we do not protect our own", "we sit back and take it".
When someone says that publicly, even if it isn't quite true, or there's a caveat, the thing that you think is "so they put this above my rights, why then should I invest in them, when they say they do not believe in their own strength?"
Is it insane? I know reddit has a blind love of EU, but it has been a self inflicted disaster over the last few years, which is extremely sad because the core concept is really good. But at some point it just turned into a gigantic bureaucracy incapable of having a vision and making sensible decisions.
When people talk about the EU, they are literally never talking about it being legislation that their own country has decided on implementing along with other EU member states, and instead pretend that the EU is a supranational government imposing policy.
That’s just EU bureaucrats that are on top of every nation’s sprawling bureaucracy. Look at any major implementation and how much of a disaster it’s been. EES and CBAM are the latest 2 examples of ridiculous legislation process that ends up in a horrible deliverable. There is a reason why most of the economies are struggling to grow at all and European standard of living is generally dropping. But I’m sure just one more tax and more new regulation will fix it.
60,000 for a population of 452 million is a drop in the ocean, you claimed that the EU had "turned into a gigantic bureaucracy". Back it up without having to add in other bureaucrats who are nothing to do with the EU.
> Have you ever dealt with any of their EU wide implementations?
Those recommendations that are previously agreed to by all member states? Those ones? You appear to believe that the EU is a supranational legislature that makes policy that must be adopted by member states, rather than simply being the mechanism whereby those member states can act in their mutual best interest; it makes you appear to be extremely ignorant at best.
Alright buddy. EU is perfect and cannot be criticised. That’s why its core economies have close to 0 growth and have been stagnating for over a decade, while the debt pile keeps growing.
As I said, you clearly not fucking dealt with their half baked implementations such as CBAM or even EES.
How does Europe think they’re going to get their Starlink alternative satellites in space?
If they do this, you think SpaceX will launch them?
I guess Europe could try going to Russia? Just wild that Europe is seeking independence in technology they didn’t produce/develop and have no capability to field.
There is no better option outside of America here. And America is the clear partner of choice.
Uh, the Europeans do have EUSPA which has IRIS2, not quite up to par with starlink but they're absolutely working on it. They have the Ariane 6 rocket that gets em to space, as well as Germanys Isar Spectrum rocket.
This isn't 1990 where it's only the US and Russia doing the space thing. Hell, even places like India and China have their own programs to launch satellites these days.
The Ariane 6 can support 9-11 total launches each year (it did 8 last year). And the rocket is entirely expended during launch.
SpaceX had 193 launches last year and their rockets are reusable. With Starship, they will be able to do much, much more there, while delivering 100-150 metric tons of payload to space each launch.
So launch capacity is the true bottleneck here, not satellite production. And that’s not something Europe will crack anytime soon.
But yeah, good luck with the years it will take to field that planned ~350 satellite constellation (vs. Starlink’s >7000 satellite constellation - each of which are available now). And good luck sustaining and replenishing those satellites.
To put this into perspective, it would only take 3 Starship launches to deliver the entire IRIS constellation to space.
Just a poor allocation of resources for a collection of countries who face problems that are far more existential than “communications sovereignty.”
At the end of the day, this amounts to a middle finger to Trump and Musk. But it only serves to weaken Europe with an inferior product.
I get you want to discount european engineering here, but you're entirely supporting my argument. Europes' only problem is literally capacity, not know-how. Capacity can be expanded with funding and desire. The only reason it hasn't yet "gotten off the ground" is because they've thus far been relying on the US. They dont have to, and they shouldn't from a national security standpoint.
IMO, there is a 5-10 year window until that kind of capacity would get fleshed out. Who knows if AI speeds that along even faster. They(the EU) cannot depend on the US, as they are adversarial at best and outright hostile with the Russian puppet as POTUS at the moment. They do, however, need to cooperate with each other, which can oftentimes be their largest bottleneck.
Building a basic LEO Internet satellite is incredibly simple.
Getting it to space is the hard part. You’re really not tracking the bottleneck here.
AI (owned by the US and China) isn’t going to suddenly democratize space launch for Europe either.
It’s cute how the European “continent” (if you want to refer to the collection of very diverse, historically warring states in that way) has decided it wants “sovereignty,” but it’s difficult to get it when you haven’t worked or produced anything of note in the past century.
But as some other commenters noted, the quality of life is the highest in Europe!
On a serious note, I hope Europe gets their shit together. It is a weight on America in many ways. I would love to see Europe empowered so that our shared alliance is more empowered.
We’ll need it to stand against Russia/China/Iran/etc. here soon.
But yeah, focus on your LEO/MEO comms constellation…
Your username really is fitting. The hubris Americans have about their supremacy in the world is absolutely outstanding. Our "alliance" is crumbling as we speak and you talk of some shared future as if you actually care how things end up for them. You even only speak of them in terms of usary; "How will what they do benefit me and screw over my bad guy of the day?" Truly as arrogant as stereotyped
America has been the world power for a long time. And it’s been a benevolent world power.
The United States could have taken over much (if not all) of the world following WW2.
Instead, we rebuilt Europe, invested in it, funded charitable endeavors around the less than privileged world, and defended the ideals of Western liberal democracy (which we inherited from Europe).
But I think what you’re experiencing now is an America that knows its place in the world, and is tired of taking shit from an insecure Europe that is increasingly looking for a boogeyman to point to as their institutions begin to crack.
That boogeyman is not the United States. Even if we won’t blindly fund your wars or accommodate your aggressive attempts at economic protectionism.
We’ve largely been allies from the beginning (in some shape or form depending on which states in Europe were fighting each other at the time), and have shared ideals.
I hope we come together against the antithesis of those ideals (i.e., China/Russia), but it’s getting to the point where “Europe” is making that hard.
The government trying to force people to use a specific company’s service that’s in bed with that government? Sounds eerily familiar to the dreaded communism that Republicans claim to hate so much.
Call his bluff on the national stage making him look like the TACO TRAITOR to the world he is. He'll back down. He always does when someone emotionally and intellectually stronger than him puts him in his place. Perhaps we can get Madani to talk to him?
Unfortunately EU is about 20 years behind replacing Starlink, like for like. EU technology is lacking on all levels from top to bottom. We are so slow and so bureaucratic that any innovation gets throttled quick. To which I try to fight every day in the tech industry here. It’s Sisyphean.
EU wants to replace it, but it can't. Europe doesn't have a launch vehicle to launch the satellites required, and is a ver ylong time away from having one.
Republicans do not believe in free markets. They do not believe in markets. They believe in command economies. Fascist authoritarian oligarchies that dictate to the public what the public is permitted.
But there's no alternative. Let's say StarLink cuts off Ukraine tomorrow. What's Europe's plan B?
I'm aware of IRIS and godspeed to them. I'm skeptical that they'll actually have a functioning constellation within a few years. And the proposed maximize size of the constellation somehow has a fraction of a percent of the number of StarLink satellites currently in orbit. I'm damned skeptical of the timeline and performance of this project. Looking forward to be pleasantly surprised if somehow they make a functioning constellation that's a meaningful competitor to StarLink with nowhere close to even 1% as many satellites.
Yup. Why'd you think Musk's been talking about abolishing the EU and breaking up Canada?
And a few days ago he was attacking an Indian billionaire for blocking Starlink in India. 3 days later Marco Rubio's in India to meet that billionaire. 🤨
Not wanting national security dependant on a ketemine addict who doesn't believe in empathy seems like the right move. And at the same time maga hates...globalism?
I mean, its standard western foreign policy to protect the interest of their corporations. "Banana Republic" was literally a name coined after the US staged coups in Honduras and Guatemala on behalf of United Fruit Company
Francafrique is a European example where the French state has pulled threads in West Africa for the benefit of French corporations and individuals. It even includes by country Norway who give political support to Equinor while they pollute the Amazon despite one of Norways geopolitical success stories is the establishment of the "Rainforest Fund" that helps protect it
as a Canadian looking at you from outside USA. I would 100% expect the USA to respond this way for Pepsi.
There is currently a movement many Canadians are supporting, to boycott USA made products and travel. Pretty much what you proposed but on a more macro scale.
Your leaders and Ambassador are trying to blame our government and threatening retaliatory action (ie. probably tariffs) in response.
> Why would the US government threaten the EU on behalf of a US company?
for the same reason that "national security" never means "access to clean water and healthcare" - we're not securing human beings, we're securing profits.
Journal Entry #138: We have tried threatening our allies again. And, again, for some reason, it still doesn't work. Maybe when we do it again, tomorrow, it will work.
i hope that future generation will look at the historical record left on twitter and "truth social" of all the insane, fucking things this idiot has said and juxtapose it to real life events that are happening.
it's our modern day version of nero playing a fiddle while rome burns.
What allies? US cannot seriously be considered an ally by anyone except maybe israel and now Russia.
EU must go as far away as possible from US and get full independence from their services. It will be hard at first, but clearly needs to be done, since the only “dialogue” us is interested in is fucking ransom talk. Fuck off.
What's the US gonna do, tariff them? Restrict that shit. Starlink has already clearly demonstrated they can't be trusted to reliably provide service in a neutral way.
They’re already doing both, would they withhold them even harder?
They’ve already squandered their cards. If you extort everyone hard as a default position, you can’t threaten them with it any more when they don’t budge.
Thats the joke, dont really see what the US can threaten at this point sine they have started an trade war and are flunking on most of the deals they have already made.
Great for securing future transactions. So the US strategy is sabotage more sectors of their economy if it means hurting somebody else too. It's like there's a nation state suicide pact, but only the US signed on.
The US has been doing this for months now with missiles and jets. There are multiple European countries who already paid billions and didnt receive them.
Well yeah. Tariffs, bans. Like they blocked a European company plus some Indian ones from the H1B visa program and accused them of "fraud". They can do all sorts of things.
None of that is gonna trump their national security concerns over Starlink. Starlink can thank their actions to pressure Ukraine for that one. They've proven they're not a good faith service provider.
Ukraine may not be a part of NATO but they are an ally, and the administration flipped the switch to throttle their traffic to pressure them to capitulate to an enemy over...oil prices. No nation is ever trusting Starlink in a meaningful way again.
They can block European tech companies from chunks of their market just as easily. They can block access to AI platforms, all kinds of software, chip exports... the works. Starlink's just the beginning man.
And that would be a idiotic thing to do, because they would show the entire world that US is not a market to get into or rely on.
Its the same reason the European Union has been so reductant to first freeze Russian bank accounts or take their money because it would essence mean they could do it to all countries and nobody wants to place their money in a region where they can just decide to take them away.
Would be a completely blow to the entire US market
European companies are already one step ahead here. I work in tech and the most surprising thing for me has been the speed with which both European but also Chinese AI models have been adopted.
The Chinese ones are not running in China, they're open source models running in European data centres. Seen as far lower risk (and lower cost) that relying on the USA, and Trump sealed that one when he restricted Fable several month back.
The speed of change has been frankly impressive and unsurprisingly the result has simply been to push business to America's biggest competitor.
I was recently working with a French customer who has built an in-house AI 'broker' platform which is basically a collection of different models, their staff do still have access to things like Gemini and Claude when needed, but >90% of AI usage is routed to other models which are better suited to the tasks.
all things the EU and Canada need to focus on severing their reliance on US for these, Its all to allow the US to have a backdoor into their shit and meddle in their business
They can, but this would have a serious impact on the valuation of US tech companies. And since they pretty much carry the entire US market currently, this wouldnt be pretty for the US economy.
That would be great for Chinese AI companies that are really rising in prominence whos models are now competitive in many metrics to US models, and cheaper.
Sure would be short term pain for EU, but because of Trump's policies and tarrifs its forcing their allies to find alternatives. EU has had no reason to seek alternatives to the US until now. In the long run it'll hurt US more.
SpaceX could also just saturate the orbital space where it’s even possible to deploy a different European alternative.
One of the problems here is that the required orbital real estate isn’t quite as empty as everyone thinks.
SpaceX could literally deny them the orbits required to deliver a competing service by just filling it with satellites before they can. Or refusing to deliver the European alternatives at all—European launch providers cannot meet the sort of launch tempo required to beat them in such a race.
No they cannot. No one forbids you from going 20-50km higher than they do and not have your orbits intersect at all. You’ll have to have slightly bigger satellites with bigger antennas, but that’s about it.
What matters is launch capacity. No one is making anything comparable with Falcon 9 today.
Slightly bigger, slightly faster satellites really adds up when you’re deploying massive constellations like this.
And SpaceX, could still fuck it up for them by essentially just dumping enough junk in whatever orbit they pick—after they start building their network—that they won’t be able to complete a constellation enough to offer competitive service.
the problem is also that even if you give in, you are not guaranteed that that leverage will not be used again, if we allow them to use it for everything their power over us will only grow as we make ourself weaker and more dependant, not less.
I think that last sentence is what are they gonna do that they aren’t already doing now. They know the US will be vindictive and a bully. They’re already doing that regardless of the EU’s actions.
Any other leverage the US tries to use against the EU is going to push them further away as a trading partner out of their own national security interests. This was a massive mistake and if we try to fix that by punishing the EU for reprisals we're only going to make it worse.
This whole thing started because Starlink keeps restricting access to Ukraine amid their war with Russia. The EU can’t spend their days appeasing a companythat acts against its own security.
They'll restrict EU companies doing business in the US. That's what the EU is proposing to do to US companies. Read the article. They're saying that spectrum reserved for telecommunications will only be able to be bid for by EU companies.
And 34% of US citizens still approve of Trump. Not even two thirds disapprove of him, just 61%. A bit more than half. And that's after reelecting him twice.
The “strongly approve” has dropped like a fucking rock from like 71 to the high 30s among Republicans. That isn’t nothing as that indicates at least some measure of voter apathy.
For a Republican, that basically means they hate him, just not enough that it means they will abandon the identity as a Republican. So they are stuck at “I don’t like anything he does, but I have to keep supporting him because he’s my president”. Because Republicans are a cult.
Romney and friends. They don't show themselves in public so much because that does not serve them or make them money. They are still there and they have more real power and money than the MAGA culture warriors.
It actually not that he is more popular but rather more polarizing thus the only people who would continue to identify as republican are the ones who still support him.
I’d suggest being more skeptical of polls from major US news networks owned by Trump allies. 93% is an impossible number for any US president in the best of times. Only MAGA would be dumb enough to come up with a number that high.
Its probably true, because the Republican party has become the Trump party. Therefore, if you call yourself a Republican these days, you'll almost certainly support Trump. The real question that should have been asked, is what proportion of people refer to themselves as Republican, because I have a feeling that may have dropped quite a lot and the number of independents increased
I wouldnt believe CNN. I watch them for the headlines but they are just giving lip service to trump. Trump even played one of those clips at a rally of his.
Notice what Eisenhower did, he was a maniac enabled by his secretary of state Dulles to go along with Senator McCarthy's red scare claims. They saw Communists everywhere and in everyone mostly because Eisenhower was a general and not a politician and because his party wanted global domination while chastising the Soviets for wanting the same. Remember, Eisenhower had no problem threatening nuclear war with the Soviet Union and China over the minor Taiwanese islands, a policy so perverse it has not been repeated for decades until now.
These ideas have pervaded American political understanding in some form right up until the present day with Republicans more overt in their misdirection to herd the masses into helping the special interest groups within an ever larger American sphere of influence.
This is why I laugh at Trumpist comments about Canada. Canadians are still paying for the Faustian bargain that is development for undisputed American influence. The only difference is due to Canadian historical connections to Europe Canada is better placed to resist the excesses of this policy compared to the rest of the Americas.
their propaganda machine is insane plus lots USA citizens don't care much about what happens outside their homecountry (or let's be honest, themselves) Trump has carte blanche on foreign policy pretty much from his personality cult, the only way that might make them lose trust in him is money in their pockets right now (future money is also irrelevant, the fact that Trump is costing a lot long term or removing risk management like insurance that is irrelevant until you don't need it, but very relevant when you do, is invisible apparently), this is why he is desperate to lower the price of gas at the pump at all costs.
I mean Trump also screamed when Amazon showed the impact of tariffs on the purchases because that is what would havea caused him to lose support, obfuscating was enough, but he can't obfuscate the gas price at the pump with a trick like that.
He has tried to obfuscate the price of fuel, too, by asking sellers to artificially lower the price despite costs skyrocketing, to hide the economic impact of his blunder. Some have.
Yeah even if trump's term is over, you still have to deal with the americans where 1/3 of them are braindead and the other 1/3 of them don't care at all to vote. And the nonvoters are as bad if not worse than the deranged trump voters who will most likely let another idiot in as president.
If there's 10 people on the bus, and 3 vote to drive off the cliff, 2 vote against it, and 5 people don't vote, you're all going off the cliff.
The world needed to stop relying on america yesterday.
I read an article yesterday where republicans were pissed and said: "well now I'm not even going to vote, the system sucks!"
So it's a spiral they don't understand
Mélanie Joly, Minister of Industry for Canada, said the other day not to expect tariffs to go away if the Democrats win. Almost none have been campaigning on tariff removal, at best you see "reduction" or "adjustment", as stated by Gavin Newsom a couple months ago when he was talking about the subject. Democrats cry foul as Trump is doing what he's doing, but they aren't against keeping a lot of his policies once he's gone. Like you said, some of them believe in the America first policy and like what's happening.
There is nothing wrong with low level targeted tariffs. Most countries have them. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I think the average tariff pre-Trump was something like 2%. But Trump is an idiot. Whether we're talking about tariffs or immigration enforcement or tough negotiating, too much of a good thing is a bad thing.
34% of Americans might be psychopaths, but your theory rests on an assumption that Americans who support trump are read in on what is going on. And I can tell you for a fact that they are not. That does not rule all the ignorant trumpkins as psychopaths, but it will excuse a few.
In America, political identify is more closely related to social / cultural aspects of life than actual policy. Every trumpkin can tell you what they're worried about: LGBTQ+, bathrooms, commies, government spending (defined as what they pay in taxes), and Iran having the bomb. All of it is nonsense. Press them for facts and the conversation stops or pivots. So there is no policy they know about or can advocate for and they have no idea about what is going on anywhere. And if they do, they learn a narrative you are not learning.
Being openly liberal in many suburbs and rural communities is great way to be ostracized. Maybe that is psychopathic. I see it as a trap or a deal with the devil. People act like politics is too complicated to understand, so they don't try. It's sad and tragic for the rest of the country and the rest of the world. I've honestly expected some European countermeasure to the misinformation we are subjected to by Russia, China, North Korea, et al, since horrible American policy affects so many people globally.
It’s the boomers and Gen X that still support him. They tend to be the demographic least affected by his policies. They know they won’t get drafted to fight in Iran, they aren’t typically student loan borrowers, they’re not first-time homebuyers, they’re not new grads navigating a job market decimated by doge layoffs,tariffs,outsourcing,AI, and oil crises, and they are nearing retirement and the stock market and housing prices whose valuations were sent to the moon by deliberate devaluation of the dollar greatly benefits them.
They have no reason not to support Trump. His terrible policies don’t affect them for the most part. And for those that were affected, they’re convinced that Biden or the Canadians or the Chinese are to blame. We’re talking about people who get more pissed off at a Walmart getting stolen from than Republican politicians getting arrested for possession of CSAM, people that think taxing the elite is a sin against god. I might sound hyperbolic or unhinged to anyone reading this but this is the political voter opposition that we are dealing with. Us Gen Z and Millennials that are affected by his policies will have to reverse and fix this mess.
That's about the same fraction as support the AfD in Germany and Marie Le Pen in France. 1/3 of the population being right-wing is pretty common across democracies.
I've noticed that too, it seems like 1/3 is a common number for far right. I think the main issue with the US is there is also 1/3 who don't give a shit or are left of democrats and think republicans and democrats are the same. And the US president has too much power that impacts the rest of the world.
You're looking at it wrong, not every voter prioritizes the same thing. IMO, basically everyone should be a single issue voter and the one issue is SCOTUS seats. The most impactful / lasting thing almost any president does is appoint Supreme Court Justices. They are the final authority on any issue that they decide they want to weigh in on and have lifetime appointments with no oversight.
If Trump were identical in every way, but had appointed 3 (and soon to be 5) liberal Justices to the Court, I bet a huge swath of folks on the left would be okay with everything else.
The US and its corporations are a security threat to any country, or group of countries, that relies on them. The US absolutely cannot be trusted anymore, and I say that as an American.
At the very least, you need to find alternatives that can act as a backup in the event the US elects idiots like Trump (or worse) who will just unilaterally sabotage your country just because you don't want to kowtow to US demands.
We've already demonstrated that treaties and agreements mean nothing. Continuing to rely on us is both silly and dangerous.
Honest question. With all you've seen, including killing people in broad daylight, what make you think these guys will just go away by losing an election?
They won't go down that easy, it's true. But just remember: if one's vote wasn't important, and controlling the narrative wasn't so critical, they wouldn't work so hard to stop us politically.
Many authoritarian governments eventually learn that whether or not you respect the vote, it's very hard to maintain control if enough of the population is against you.
I don't see that happening in the US. They mostly think elections will resolve everything. And people get shot by the government on the streets and it barely create any reaction.
Now we are about corruption, control and punishing anyone that doesn't bow down to our Lord and Savior Donald J. Trump.
As to how? We removed the blockers that prevented large donations to political campaigns (citizens united). And 30 years of propaganda from Fox News and others have warped the world view of the conservative half of the country. Turns out people prefer a comfortable lie to a complicated and inconvenient truth.
> Why the fuck is the US government providing muscle for Muskrat?
"He knows those computers better than anybody. All those computers. Those vote-counting computers... And we ended up winning Pennsylvania like in a landslide."
Yeah they were lying they always have used the state department to bully foreign countries into picking their US companies for contracts and choosing winners essentially. See Boeing and every US security contractor supplying overpriced weapons etc
Trump and Musk have shown that the US is untrustworthy. As an American I support the EU and Canada and Mexico developing their own satellite system. The in two years, Trump has destroyed the reputation of the USA and it might never return for generations.
Yes, who would rely on Starlink, if it can be turned off any moment at the wim of some crazy person. Military gear is also at risk, as it might contain a kill switch too.
Well it's not that bad. It's bad, but it's not like we in the EU don't know that there's another side of the US not trying pick fights with us. But sure, the EU will definitely think twice for any deal egen if the president is democrat, because we just don't know what will change a few years later. So large collaboration will always have a shadow of "what happens if" because the risk analysis is completely different going forward.
I am sorry, an unreliable partner is still unreliable. The US anymore geopolitically is like dealing with a bipolar person, and let's be honest the other side can be just as self centered they just try to be more politic about pushing things.
That doesnt really help much tho. Since everyone knows that Americans can just vote for the next Trump-like politician in a few years. You usually dont set up longterm contracts or strategies with a risk like that.
As a US citizen I hope any other country gives the middle finger to the current leadership. I also hope the rest of the world will give us a chance to earn their trust back in the future.
Has an EU citizen no lenger trust your country because your senate and house have no backbone to standup to a lunatic president. The way I see it no longer trust US and view it as a 3rd world country!
Can’t see that ever happening again. This is the kind of betrayal that will be written in the history books of other countries and taught in schools. Won’t be in ours of course, and we will forever wonder why the rest of the world hates us passionately.
So pathetic - the U.S. government is literally carrying water for Elon Musk personally - which is not anywhere near a matter of national interest. It's a very weak regime in office right now in the U.S.
As an american, I wouldn't use Starlink or trust Starlink at this point with anything.
If I'm the EU I'm putting every dollar I can into duplicating every us computer services business with local control and I'm subsidizing the fuck out of that for the next decade if I have to just to make sure that the EU is never exposed to another situation where America elects an asset of a foreign nation who actively works to destroy the United States and its allies from the inside.
It's quite literally a national security must for them.
The problem is there is no such thing as "national security" at the EU level. Treating the EU as a single entity is a nice shorthand, but a the level of policy that this would need to operate at, it doesn't exist.
The world is already diversifying rather than dropping the U.S. entirely, which is a lot more realistic and effective. Militaries do need to cut off many items that rely on the U.S. for maintenance and they’re working on it, but that will take longer.
The only way that "moving towards federalisation" and "moving towards centralisation" would not be synonymous in the EU context is if you're contemplating the EU centralizing beyond federation towards a unitary state
Otherwise, any centralization is a step towards federalization
Although StarLink is the biggest name in "cell towers in space," the EU have Eutelsat's OneWeb. They're still developing, but they're the second largest in the world. Their shares jumped +26% after Musk/Trump/Hegseth started throttling Ukraine.
There are other players, like Amazon's LEO, and Lynk Global (the first company to prove the concept of "cell tower in space" and send a text from a satellite) just partnered with SES and have 5,000+ satellites planned, and are about to explode onto the scene.
The US, China, and Russia have already weaponized space. It's been weaponized since the 1980s at the latest (though, those older satellites and weapons have been replaced). There aren't just spy satellites in space, we know some are armed with missiles, and not just ICBM interceptors (which were originally put in orbit to intercept nukes in the upper atmosphere in doomsday scenarios), and some probably with high-energy photonic lasers or even kinetic weaponry. Some satellites are armed/designed to take out other satellites, or at least disrupt/jam them, if needed, and there have already been incidents like this.
So, that horse bolted from the barn a long time ago, and it wasn't/isn't just the US doing it, even if they have contributed the most.
Photonic lasers are already used in space for a variety of civilian/non-military reasons, such as communications, remote sensing, tracking, and ranging.
High-energy photonic lasers have been used/tested in space, and that is public knowledge, so we know they can be used in space, and the technology has existed for some time. They are used in deep space communications, e.g. deep space probes. Civilian experimental prototype technology and technology used in space for a variety functions have already been tested in space and are currently in use, including at the energy threshold/level needed for weapons (weapons testing in space is classified, but high-energy photonic lasers have already been tested, you can be sure). Again, this is public knowledge.
I'm not saying heat dissipation for these lasers is a non-trivial concern, but it has mostly been solved. You can research this yourself. It's already happened/happening.
The amount of energy used for communication, versus the amount needed to act as a weapon, are phenomenally different. Many orders of magnitude between them.
It’s also weird that you’ve used to term “photonic laser”, I don’t think there are any other types of laser, that’s sort of what laser is referring to (Light Amplification by the Stimulated Emission of Radiation). You can have different lasing frequencies (e.g. visible light, infra-red, X-rays etc.) but it’s all still photons.
If you don't know what energy, photons, or lasers are in the world of physics/science, I get why you would feel confused and angry about this.
Do you know what photons are?
As I have said, high-energy photonic lasers are already used in space, and the threshold for weaponizing them is already reached in many civilian uses. They are already used as weapons down here on Earth.
I do think you're misunderstanding heat dissipation of high energy photons in space. Simply looking up how photonic laser beams dissipate heat in space, and looking up how this technology is created for use in space, would dissipate your confusion.
Yes, it's all photons. It refers to many types of lasers that use photons, I wasn't being specific deliberately because there are many kinds.
This is heavy on the speculation… yes, the U.S. admitted to having offensive space capabilities for the first time, letting the (long suspected) cat out of the bag. But your list of purported capabilities has no sources, and some are straight up science fiction. E.g. “high energy photonic lasers” is just word salad, and physics of heat dissipation make it highly suspect.
High energy photonic lasers are already used in space for civilian purposes, such as deep orbit communications. Photonic lasers are used in every from remote sensing (e.g. lidar), signals/communications, to ranging in space already.
I forgot to add that "high-energy photonic lasers" is only a word salad if you don't know/understand the physical/scientific definitions of 'energy', 'photons', and 'lasers'.
It’s word salad when you’re implying a weaponized system, with energy limitations and the vacuum of space hindering the heat dissipation required by a high-energy system. Additional replies to your comment already discussed this, which you hand waived off.
I don't think you know enough to have an opinion about this, tbh. You also keep trying to change what we're talking about. You can look up technology that use photonic laser systems, and photon is obviously a general term (which I used deliberately). There are many different types of photons, and photonic energies.
You could go look up these technologies yourself. They aren't giant space lasers, I'm not sure what you're imagining. Weapons that literally shoot high energy/concentrated photons work in space. Ask a physicist/applied physicist/an engineer who works in these areas.
Just because you don't know/understand what I'm saying doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Go research how heat dissipation of high-energy photons in space works, then look up literally any high-energy photon technology currently used in space. I'm not talking about giant space lasers used by cartoon mad scientists, I'm talking about the ones that actually exist and are currently in use in space.
Seriously. If your *entire nation's military internet access* in the field depends on whether one sad little rich boy thinks you kiss his butt well enough, then you aren't an independent nation-state.
This is why wealth disparity - and the very existence of billionaires - is an existential threat to everyone else on the planet.
The US has done a great job at highlighting countries either need to be subservient or independent of the US and their assets. I suspect Trump has ensured we will see a dramatic shift away from many key tech industries are other countries develop alternatives to the US standard ones. AI is going to accelerate that which we already see as expensive and subscription tools from key developers are already being released for free thanks to people being able to do it on their own. The US pie is going to shrink considerably.
You almost got it. It does it with the support of Russian propaganda. A certain set of US leadership and elite are absolutely aligned, coincidentally or not, with same objectives as Russia. Specifically, to remove the US from its world presence as leader and police. To weaken democracy in the US and drift towards authoritarianism so criminals can evade consequences.
I’m seeing news of AI re-engineering and recreating application software every day. Once Europe starts reverse engineering all of the critical infrastructure they rely on the US for, I’m curious how important AI will be to the US gov.
They already did that with their money transfer system between EU nations. People that work for the ICC had their access to their accounts locked because they were connected to US payment systems because of US sanctions against the ICC. Same with all their Microsoft products including Windows. Locked duenm to US sanctions. So now the EU knows this is a vulnerability and is moving to be independent of the US tech sector.
I’m seeing news of AI re-engineering and recreating application software every day. Once Europe starts reverse engineering all of the critical infrastructure they rely on the US for, I’m curious how important AI will be to the US gov.
>If I'm the EU I'm putting every dollar I can into duplicating every us computer services business with local control and I'm subsidizing the fuck out of that for the next decade if I have to just to make sure
Actually you are proposing what China is currently doing and scolded for by the very same European Union.
I'm feeling pretty smug at the moment. I was on a SIM plan with GiffGaff, an MVNO of O2. I saw an advert on TV a couple months back that O2 were rolling out Direct to Cell satellite communication, and I thought "wait a damn minute...", googled it and just as I suspected, the DtC service is being provided by Starlink. I cancelled my contract, then put in the "why are you leaving" field a short rant about how I'd rather eat my own hair than let my money get into the hands of that narcissistic sociopathic white supremacist even by proxy of an MVNO.
I'm with Vodafone now whose DtC plans are with AST SpaceMobile and their Bluebird satellites.
Europe needs to divest from the United States as much as possible and protect itself and secure its future.
The American government cannot be trusted because its people cannot be trusted, and there’s exactly 0 sign of improvement in American society any time in even the future that could be reasonably forecast. It will be generations before this nation should be given any semblance of responsibility again.
The US education system is so terrible in some places and the inequality in education so huge that people on the top dont even consider those on the bottom to be 'like' and therefore as valuable as they are.
People at the top have never considered plebeians to be like them. They send their children to $60k/yr schools so they can make connections with other kids like them, instead of associating with riffraff that will never be a part of their privileged world. You are not people. You are manpower; a tool.
I'm of European origin but have never lived in Europe so almost all of my knowledge is second hand: I totally agree with what you are saying, but is the political nature of Europe part of the problem?
Painting with a broad brush, the EU seems to have a mandate without sovereignty. It's expected to act for Europe as a whole, but has no real power, especially over defence and foreign policy.
In some ways do European nations need to first decide that they like each other more than they dislike American hegemony first?
eu - not Europe, is very solid, but it is a political and economic union - not more not less. The entire concept is to give functional democratic European countries better market terms in a global market and within EU. I want to highlight this extremely hard - eu is not burning, eu is doing great, yes there is a growing group of elderly, being a issue in Germany and France, no there isn’t a immigrant crisis, all of this is being blown out of proportion by - ask yourself who. Europe is doing just as good, (outside of the manufactured energy/oil crisis, Iran+russia, that all media somehow collectively forgot about the consequences of) if not a lot better than 10-20 years ago - with countries like Poland, after becoming a eu member have experienced insane growth. There’s an absolute insane amount of misinformation going around within Europe and about Europe. Again yes there is issues, and things goes slow in a democratic beurocracy across nations - but that’s good, that’s stopping abuse and people are held accountable, and radical idealisms can’t manifest in such environment. But remember each country within eu has their own policies and political system and economic choices, which you will never hear about in the news, you will never hear about the eu successes anymore, because it’s all about American owned media and bots for that matter, slantering eu to make democracy look bad and stopping eu from growing and be a democratic world power, because that, to the worlds dictators and oligarchs is a big issue. The real war we are seeing right now, and don’t forget this, is a war on the working class, the people and democracy - funded by the Epstein class, Russia and the American government. Europe is a geographical term and isn’t one thing or a political or idealistic unit in any sense. Europe is a geographical term - includes Russia, eus biggest enemy, eu is a political organization within Europe. There is not one Europe when talking politics because there is no ties or collaboration outside of EU, because of historically countries to the east being Russian controlled politically. Generally these are also the countries where things are rowdy and often tied to a general issue in Europe when it’s really internal issues caused by Russian interference. The last year or so, poorer parts of eu countries like Germany and Spain have been targeted to be a weakpoint, where we see anti eu radical right wingers suddenly appear, radicalization comming from online forums and TikTok. Really to answer - there is no “political nature of Europe” Europe is not one thing or tied together neccecerily, there is no Europe as a whole, we are independent sovereign countries - some of us working together through EU.
Even more reasons for the EU to double down with this and speedrun abandoning our reliance on US tech and infrastructure. Trump is on a downward spiral and there's no point taking this threats seriously anymore
Never in my life growing up did I think the US would be threatening the EU. We were raised knowing how close we were and that our friendship was a true sign of how many democracy works to build bridges.
The current US administration's wet dream is to have every person in the world surveilled by a single entity of which they're in full control (i.e. Starlink). They NEED every device (phones, computers, vehicles, etc) to be fully connected at all times, no dead zones or other ways to hide data transmission, so of course direct satellite connection is the key. Europe wanting to preserve radio bandwidth for non-Starlink competitors is definitely going to ruffle this administration's feathers because it means they won't be able to harvest the data as easily. This isn't a market issue, it's a privacy issue.
This particular monopoly is natural. No one except SpaceX invested into reusable launchers that made Starlink economically possible. It's almost like Nokia complaining about Apple despite burying their heads in the sand to the advances in tech.
That isn't true. There were a lot of companies vying for the DARPA money that was trying to get cheap access to space. The creator of Doom, John Carmack, created Armadillo Aerospace for example if memory serves. There were a bunch of them. The market doesn't want to support multiple companies, it wanta a single solution that it trusts to function. Same with Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Nvidia, Steam, and so on down a long list. Competition is great at initially selecting for what people most want, but it is I herently wasteful and once it figures out what is wanted it does nothing but produce waste. It is cheaper and more efficient to consolidate competitors or outright let them die on the vine. Competition really only exists in perpetuity if forced for most tech industries.
Ok, I agree with you in this. Maybe I phrased that badly. No one except USA did it. Chinese are now doing it, but Europe is still laying in a ditch somewhere along the way. They kept developing new single use rockets when SpaceX was already reliably landing Falcons. It's an intentional obsolence. Now they're trying to invest some money into it, but it's 20 years too late and 10x too little.
I'd add to your statements that we don't need more companies tossing thousands upon thousands of low orbit satellites in space so people can access the internet.
There’s nothing wrong with that.
Now that then have Starship that can easily launch 2 ton satellites they can also consolidate and use smaller number of larger ones to achieve same bandwidth
They made "China" sell Tik Tok to US oligarchs under the guise of "national security"
Well, it is probably, maybe even factually, safer for the EU to shy away from Starlink and stick to tech that is under EU oversight. Same reasons the US used for Tik Tok, which is much less of a threat
On principle starlink needs to be restricted now. Is Europe sovereign or not? Would we tolerate Iran or Russia giving us ultimatums like this?
And do we want people in the EU getting more reliant on a service the US is actively weaponising against us. This is the same as Russian gas only its rural internet.
Innit interesting how "capitalism works" is always upheld by some billionaire pedophile threatening everyone else if they refuse to pay for their product?
It's also funny how NATO is a voluntary organization, and the "free world" are crumbling the moment capital owners feel their profits threatened?
We have NATO to protect us from you, Ivan, so I understand why you don't like it. Bringing it up every time, even in unrelated contexts, is doing nothing to help your case.
In Russia there is apparently still people who believe they are a global power, when they can’t even get their shit together to conquer their much smaller neighbor. Even IF they tried to invade Europe, at the rate they have progressed across Ukraine, it would take them decades to even get there.
It is in the interest of Europe to pacify Moscow and turn European Russia into a client state, ideally releasing Russia east of the Urals to their pre-imperialist configuration. But that's just me.
And yes, I realize the irony in me replying that in yet another thread about NATO. The reality is that I don't care about Russia, I only care about Russia because they fucking keep on undermining our societies and I need them to stop doing that.
I’m not gonna disagree, it’s just the mechanism for pacifying them that’s a bit tricky. The place has been so hollowed out by corruption and the bankrupting cost of the war that at some point the whole house of cards is bound to come down, but unfortunately Russians don’t exactly have a good track record of leadership so who’s to say the next regime would be any better?
We put them under EU supervision. Like I said, client state. It's in our direct interest. Why are we the ones who have to deal with this psychotic gangster country next door all the time. It's been like this for more than a century, maybe even longer, I say it's enough. Time for them to turn into a normal society, and they are incapable of getting there themselves so maybe we should just fucking do it for them.
And this is exactly why it has to happen. This guy……. This guy and his cronies are soooooo fucking stupid…… I am getting slow whiplash from constantly shaking my head.
That’s crazy, all the more reason to make competition.
Brussels should side with the EU but not take Starlink out of the equation. A better product would have to be made though…and Elon’s company is uniquely ahead in this market.
They're trying with IRIS. But even if their proposal worked perfectly they'd have much fewer than 1% the number of satellites at somehow about the same total cost as StarLink. I'm skeptical about how it will work out, to say the least. We'll see over the next few years.
Eh I would give a ra ***** what he wants or says. The retaliation can be swift with Europe dumping American bonds and crapping all over our “glorious economy”.
But do you really think European telecommunications companies are going to back down and pay Elon Musk Star link? That will never happen in a million years, and Trump’s retaliatory measures are a double-edged sword for America itself. Who does the US trade with? Who will fill the economic void left by Europe? Russia, whose GDP is smaller than Italy’s? Those are the words of a senile old man who is afraid of facing the consequences of his own bullshit. Like it or not, the die has been cast.
Starlink has proven to be unreliable. Not due to technical issues, but often due to the whims of a rich con-man. The EU via ESA should have developed a stable alternative years ago. No time like the present.
Low earth orbit is needed for good satellite communication. Low earth orbit also means that the satellites will fall out of the sky after a handful of years. What Starlink is doing is trying to make enough money to constantly replace them as they fall. They have to have a world market to try to pull it off with frequent launches. Stable satellite positions are too far away and result in a lot of latency. Even having a phone conversation is difficult due to the delays. Fiber in the ground is always better if available.
Exactly. SpaceX currently has about 11,150 active Starlink satellites in low Earth orbit, out of over 12,980 total satellites launched since May 2019. ESA could have half that number up in LEO in 3-4 years if they start now.
Curbing Starlink isn't enough; the EU needs their own alternative system and to remove both X and Tesla. Otherwise the EU will continue to be at the wims of a drug-crazed billionaire.
Trump is a useless and lazy piece of shit that thinks telling someone to do something themselves will scare them off when in reality it's actually a good thing
Let them threaten us. From what we've seen recently we need to distance ourselves as much as possible from this insane man who is "in charge of America".
EU can thrive without America and so we will.
Now i'm not about to claim to have any idea what i'm talking about here but.....
Don't the differenct bandwiths used by companies like starlink have to be purchased by the companies making use of them since there's only so much space before comms start interfering with eachother? If this is a case of unsold bandwith being reserved for European companies i wouldn't expect that to be a huge issue. If it's a case of the EU talking about effectively eminent domaining bandwith used by other companies to be resold to domestic companies then..... ya I can see that deserving retaliation.
Well, Europe should, definitely, 100 Billion%, deny access to certain band to maintain independence and security from the US, Elon and China. And any other external entity.to coin their very own phrase, EU First.
If not cutting them completely out, they should at least tie them to some rules with fines, and please not the fines which can take up to a decade to get enforce.
Well thank you Trump for sending your anti-abortionist geriatric care patient to threaten us for prioritizing our own companies while you do exactly the same with manufacturing jobs.
It’ll be several decades, if ever, that Europe would be able to compete with starlink. Sounds like this might not be in the best interest of European consumers.
If you insists.
Also, if Europe wants to loosen their ties to USA, somewhere, somehow, they are to begins. Tieing the knot a bit tighter because USA feels to play the bully is not the smart move in this scenario
[OP] diwalibonus | 14 hours ago
Like this is the whole reason the EU wants to replace Starlink.
In Trumpian America, the company selling the services tells the customer what to buy. 🤷
blackkettle | 12 hours ago
Its insane that Europe would even consider accommodating them. The short term pain might be real; but look at the alternative. Just in this particular example we can already see the inevitable outcome: give starlink unfettered access. Let it further its monopolistic interests. Then watch when they proceed to use that exact same position to throttle network access every time they want extra payola. Look at Ukraine…
Freud-Network | 9 hours ago
It's like telling cancer it can have your kidney as long as it doesn't spread.
It is cancer, it will only get worse.
TimSylvester_ | 7 hours ago
Accommodation is encouragement and acceptance.
nagai | 11 hours ago
It's oftentimes better to just play along, let MAGA lunatics have some political victory, and move to decouple in the long term. The US is all about political theatrics.
Kronos9898 | 10 hours ago
Hard to say really. Canada has done pretty much the opposite of that, and trump has gotten nowhere with them.
No-Tackle-5803 | 9 hours ago
As a Canadian, I agree with maybe half of what Carney does, but credit where it's due, he might be the only Western world leader who knows how to deal with Trump.
didroe | 9 hours ago
Putin and Xi seem to have a good handle on him too
No-Tackle-5803 | 9 hours ago
I meant to say the only Werstern leader.
linerva | 7 hours ago
That's probably only because he's so desperate o ne part of the dictators club
AussieArlenBales | 10 hours ago
If Trump had a greater attention span it would be, but he flits from fight to fight trying to bully everyone and moving on to the next perceived victim when he gets push back. Better to stand up to him now
DisappointedSpectre | 10 hours ago
It might also be worth considering that in places where politicians are actually somewhat beholden to their population then MAGA appeasement doesn't look great for their next campaign run.
emmacappa | 4 hours ago
Yes, pesky functional democracies
impossiblefork | 9 hours ago
Giving people victories of this sort is bad.
It destroys your own side's pride. Without pride you can't have hype. Without hype you can't have investment.
To give someone victories of this sort is to say "we do not protect our own", "we sit back and take it".
When someone says that publicly, even if it isn't quite true, or there's a caveat, the thing that you think is "so they put this above my rights, why then should I invest in them, when they say they do not believe in their own strength?"
T_S_Anders | 9 hours ago
Every country that has kowtowed to US demands has had far worst deals. Give them an inch and they'll take several miles.
TruIsou | 7 hours ago
A centimeter and several kilometers!
Opposite_Amount_4499 | 10 hours ago
You sound like someone talking about an abusive relationship
watarimono | 7 hours ago
Good point. Give trump a golden trophy 🏆 and run like hell with the alternative.
m0nty555 | 11 hours ago
Is it insane? I know reddit has a blind love of EU, but it has been a self inflicted disaster over the last few years, which is extremely sad because the core concept is really good. But at some point it just turned into a gigantic bureaucracy incapable of having a vision and making sensible decisions.
umop_apisdn | 10 hours ago
> a gigantic bureaucracy
The EU has just 60,000 bureaucrats for a population of 452 million.
modzRtarderz | 5 hours ago
When people talk about a bureaucracy, they are literally never talking about the actual number of bureaucrats. Just a heads up.
umop_apisdn | 4 hours ago
When people talk about the EU, they are literally never talking about it being legislation that their own country has decided on implementing along with other EU member states, and instead pretend that the EU is a supranational government imposing policy.
m0nty555 | 9 hours ago
That’s just EU bureaucrats that are on top of every nation’s sprawling bureaucracy. Look at any major implementation and how much of a disaster it’s been. EES and CBAM are the latest 2 examples of ridiculous legislation process that ends up in a horrible deliverable. There is a reason why most of the economies are struggling to grow at all and European standard of living is generally dropping. But I’m sure just one more tax and more new regulation will fix it.
umop_apisdn | 9 hours ago
60,000 for a population of 452 million is a drop in the ocean, you claimed that the EU had "turned into a gigantic bureaucracy". Back it up without having to add in other bureaucrats who are nothing to do with the EU.
m0nty555 | 8 hours ago
60k is just people Brussels. That’s 2.2k people per country. Who do you think goes and implements laws on the country level?
Have you ever dealt with any of their EU wide implementations? Or do you just remember introducing USB-C standard.
umop_apisdn | 8 hours ago
> Have you ever dealt with any of their EU wide implementations?
Those recommendations that are previously agreed to by all member states? Those ones? You appear to believe that the EU is a supranational legislature that makes policy that must be adopted by member states, rather than simply being the mechanism whereby those member states can act in their mutual best interest; it makes you appear to be extremely ignorant at best.
m0nty555 | 6 hours ago
Alright buddy. EU is perfect and cannot be criticised. That’s why its core economies have close to 0 growth and have been stagnating for over a decade, while the debt pile keeps growing.
As I said, you clearly not fucking dealt with their half baked implementations such as CBAM or even EES.
impioushubris | 6 hours ago
How does Europe think they’re going to get their Starlink alternative satellites in space?
If they do this, you think SpaceX will launch them?
I guess Europe could try going to Russia? Just wild that Europe is seeking independence in technology they didn’t produce/develop and have no capability to field.
There is no better option outside of America here. And America is the clear partner of choice.
amendment64 | 6 hours ago
Uh, the Europeans do have EUSPA which has IRIS2, not quite up to par with starlink but they're absolutely working on it. They have the Ariane 6 rocket that gets em to space, as well as Germanys Isar Spectrum rocket.
This isn't 1990 where it's only the US and Russia doing the space thing. Hell, even places like India and China have their own programs to launch satellites these days.
impioushubris | 4 hours ago
The Ariane 6 can support 9-11 total launches each year (it did 8 last year). And the rocket is entirely expended during launch.
SpaceX had 193 launches last year and their rockets are reusable. With Starship, they will be able to do much, much more there, while delivering 100-150 metric tons of payload to space each launch.
So launch capacity is the true bottleneck here, not satellite production. And that’s not something Europe will crack anytime soon.
But yeah, good luck with the years it will take to field that planned ~350 satellite constellation (vs. Starlink’s >7000 satellite constellation - each of which are available now). And good luck sustaining and replenishing those satellites.
To put this into perspective, it would only take 3 Starship launches to deliver the entire IRIS constellation to space.
Just a poor allocation of resources for a collection of countries who face problems that are far more existential than “communications sovereignty.”
At the end of the day, this amounts to a middle finger to Trump and Musk. But it only serves to weaken Europe with an inferior product.
amendment64 | 3 hours ago
I get you want to discount european engineering here, but you're entirely supporting my argument. Europes' only problem is literally capacity, not know-how. Capacity can be expanded with funding and desire. The only reason it hasn't yet "gotten off the ground" is because they've thus far been relying on the US. They dont have to, and they shouldn't from a national security standpoint.
IMO, there is a 5-10 year window until that kind of capacity would get fleshed out. Who knows if AI speeds that along even faster. They(the EU) cannot depend on the US, as they are adversarial at best and outright hostile with the Russian puppet as POTUS at the moment. They do, however, need to cooperate with each other, which can oftentimes be their largest bottleneck.
impioushubris | 3 hours ago
Building a basic LEO Internet satellite is incredibly simple.
Getting it to space is the hard part. You’re really not tracking the bottleneck here.
AI (owned by the US and China) isn’t going to suddenly democratize space launch for Europe either.
It’s cute how the European “continent” (if you want to refer to the collection of very diverse, historically warring states in that way) has decided it wants “sovereignty,” but it’s difficult to get it when you haven’t worked or produced anything of note in the past century.
But as some other commenters noted, the quality of life is the highest in Europe!
On a serious note, I hope Europe gets their shit together. It is a weight on America in many ways. I would love to see Europe empowered so that our shared alliance is more empowered.
We’ll need it to stand against Russia/China/Iran/etc. here soon.
But yeah, focus on your LEO/MEO comms constellation…
amendment64 | 2 hours ago
Your username really is fitting. The hubris Americans have about their supremacy in the world is absolutely outstanding. Our "alliance" is crumbling as we speak and you talk of some shared future as if you actually care how things end up for them. You even only speak of them in terms of usary; "How will what they do benefit me and screw over my bad guy of the day?" Truly as arrogant as stereotyped
impioushubris | an hour ago
It’s not unearned supremacy.
America has been the world power for a long time. And it’s been a benevolent world power.
The United States could have taken over much (if not all) of the world following WW2.
Instead, we rebuilt Europe, invested in it, funded charitable endeavors around the less than privileged world, and defended the ideals of Western liberal democracy (which we inherited from Europe).
But I think what you’re experiencing now is an America that knows its place in the world, and is tired of taking shit from an insecure Europe that is increasingly looking for a boogeyman to point to as their institutions begin to crack.
That boogeyman is not the United States. Even if we won’t blindly fund your wars or accommodate your aggressive attempts at economic protectionism.
We’ve largely been allies from the beginning (in some shape or form depending on which states in Europe were fighting each other at the time), and have shared ideals.
I hope we come together against the antithesis of those ideals (i.e., China/Russia), but it’s getting to the point where “Europe” is making that hard.
LazyTitan39 | 11 hours ago
It’s extortion what Trump is doing.
The_Wookalar | 9 hours ago
On behalf of a South African trillionaire, to boot. This benefits the US in no way whatsoever.
Greedy-Basil9619 | 6 hours ago
It benefits trump personally because musk has donated $330 million dollars to keep republicans in power in the midterms
ForMeOnly93 | 8 hours ago
That thing is canadian/american.
Training-Context-69 | 9 hours ago
The government trying to force people to use a specific company’s service that’s in bed with that government? Sounds eerily familiar to the dreaded communism that Republicans claim to hate so much.
dust4ngel | 4 hours ago
communism: regulatory capture by capitalists to aid in the accumulation of capital by capitalists.
kent_eh | 8 hours ago
>this is the whole reason the EU wants to replace Starlink.
Not only Europe.
https://old.reddit.com/r/BoycottUnitedStates/comments/1xaujlt/canadas_telesat_is_building_a_starlink_rival_and/
Historical-Harpy | 9 hours ago
Call his bluff on the national stage making him look like the TACO TRAITOR to the world he is. He'll back down. He always does when someone emotionally and intellectually stronger than him puts him in his place. Perhaps we can get Madani to talk to him?
MrKorakis | 12 hours ago
> the company selling the services tells the customer what to buy
Monopolies tend to work like that and starlink is the only one offering such a service
bradeena | 11 hours ago
Starlink is currently the best, but there’s actually at least two others (Viasat and Hughesnet), and more on the way.
MrKorakis | 11 hours ago
Those use geostationary satellites and in no way are the compatible in latency or total bandwidth to Starlink. This is apples to oranges
SkitariusOfMars | 10 hours ago
Those 2 are in no way competition. Starlink is broadband, low latency, and comparable to terrestrial internet access.
savagefleurdelis23 | 10 hours ago
Unfortunately EU is about 20 years behind replacing Starlink, like for like. EU technology is lacking on all levels from top to bottom. We are so slow and so bureaucratic that any innovation gets throttled quick. To which I try to fight every day in the tech industry here. It’s Sisyphean.
SkitariusOfMars | 10 hours ago
EU wants to replace it, but it can't. Europe doesn't have a launch vehicle to launch the satellites required, and is a ver ylong time away from having one.
TimSylvester_ | 7 hours ago
Republicans do not believe in free markets. They do not believe in markets. They believe in command economies. Fascist authoritarian oligarchies that dictate to the public what the public is permitted.
redzin | 3 hours ago
Yup, definitely a good idea to rid ourselves of that dependency.
Patriarchy-4-Life | 15 minutes ago
But there's no alternative. Let's say StarLink cuts off Ukraine tomorrow. What's Europe's plan B?
I'm aware of IRIS and godspeed to them. I'm skeptical that they'll actually have a functioning constellation within a few years. And the proposed maximize size of the constellation somehow has a fraction of a percent of the number of StarLink satellites currently in orbit. I'm damned skeptical of the timeline and performance of this project. Looking forward to be pleasantly surprised if somehow they make a functioning constellation that's a meaningful competitor to StarLink with nowhere close to even 1% as many satellites.
AbsoluteTruthiness | 6 hours ago
Is "In Trumpian America" the new "In Soviet Russia" joke?
Little-Somewhere6076 | 13 hours ago
How is SpaceX telling customers what to but?
Mr_Beefy1890 | 13 hours ago
They're not, they're getting the US government to do it for them.
[OP] diwalibonus | 13 hours ago
Yup. Why'd you think Musk's been talking about abolishing the EU and breaking up Canada?
And a few days ago he was attacking an Indian billionaire for blocking Starlink in India. 3 days later Marco Rubio's in India to meet that billionaire. 🤨
Voat-the-Goat | 12 hours ago
The EU isn't representing the people. It's locking France into insolvency by not letting them print money. It should be disolved.
King_Of_BlackMarsh | 7 hours ago
Oh no, they're trying not to create an inflation crisis, how awful
sarinonline | 11 hours ago
mmmhmmm sure Jan.
Little-Somewhere6076 | 13 hours ago
> the company selling the services tells the customer what to buy. 🤷
Let that guy know
BroughtBagLunchSmart | 10 hours ago
Trump and Elon are acting in their same interests because they are both white supremacist pedophiles.
lnin0 | 8 hours ago
Why would the US government threaten the EU on behalf of a US company? If they don’t want to drink Pepsi would we also reign down hellfire upon them?
shewflyshew | 6 hours ago
Not wanting national security dependant on a ketemine addict who doesn't believe in empathy seems like the right move. And at the same time maga hates...globalism?
BornAgainBlue | 6 hours ago
We don't need ANYTHING or ANYONE!!! Please buy from us and help us fight, and, and and...
shewflyshew | 6 hours ago
Right, nothing makes any logical sense when there's an impulsive moron at the helm.
andooet | 6 hours ago
Corruption
I mean, its standard western foreign policy to protect the interest of their corporations. "Banana Republic" was literally a name coined after the US staged coups in Honduras and Guatemala on behalf of United Fruit Company
Francafrique is a European example where the French state has pulled threads in West Africa for the benefit of French corporations and individuals. It even includes by country Norway who give political support to Equinor while they pollute the Amazon despite one of Norways geopolitical success stories is the establishment of the "Rainforest Fund" that helps protect it
That's just how the world works under capitalism
SnooConfections6085 | 6 hours ago
Trying to turn Europe into just another banana republic, existing to be be exploited by American big business.
adorablefuzzykitten | 5 hours ago
Wish Trump would let us know what his new constitution says.
NMiguelCosta-PT | 3 hours ago
As if Europe has been anything but that since at least the end of ww2.
adorablefuzzykitten | 5 hours ago
"Do business with my major campaign donator or I will destroy you": Donald Jessica Trump
-6h0st- | 4 hours ago
Because it’s an oligarchy by now it should be clear to everyone. GOP supporting companies are treated like bros.
noob_summoner69 | 5 hours ago
as a Canadian looking at you from outside USA. I would 100% expect the USA to respond this way for Pepsi.
There is currently a movement many Canadians are supporting, to boycott USA made products and travel. Pretty much what you proposed but on a more macro scale.
Your leaders and Ambassador are trying to blame our government and threatening retaliatory action (ie. probably tariffs) in response.
Thunder_Two | 4 hours ago
And you’re organizing this boycott of American products on American social media?
Mundane-Mud2509 | 3 hours ago
Yep, cool huh
Thunder_Two | 2 hours ago
I’m sure it’ll work out.
Wayelder | 5 hours ago
Trumpty Dumpty thinks that Elon can save him. He thinks he'll just reach in and change all the numbers.
Gotta suck up to a guy who can do that .
FaceMcShooty1738 | 6 hours ago
Did Pepsi spend 100s of millions for the midterms.
UMACTUALLYITS23 | 6 hours ago
Dude they have overthrown countries for US companies before, this shouldn't be a surprise.
Delicious_Willow_733 | 5 hours ago
US done it with the global south in the past. But in persuit of intinite growth, more needs to be enslaved to sustain the demands of the elites
No-Permit-9331 | 5 hours ago
Does it make you wonder if Musk has a back door to starlink and may have the ability to spy on those that use it? Just curious
Userwerd | 5 hours ago
Look up "the business plot" took almost a century but they might have succeeded
TA_Lax8 | 4 hours ago
Sounds like socialism to me, boss
guldan_the_warlock | 4 hours ago
Maybe they would send a carrier our way...
Beer-Milkshakes | 4 hours ago
Because the US is 4 companies in a trench coat.
PalatinusG1 | 4 hours ago
Because Elon is one of them. They're basically an incompetent mafia at this point.
Schlieren1 | 3 hours ago
The EU is trying to protect European companies. The US is trying to protect US companies. Shocking
dust4ngel | 3 hours ago
> Why would the US government threaten the EU on behalf of a US company?
for the same reason that "national security" never means "access to clean water and healthcare" - we're not securing human beings, we're securing profits.
redzin | 3 hours ago
Close personal relationships between the state and industry leaders is a hall-mark of fascism.
Zyklus-89 | 37 minutes ago
Why would they overthrow a government at the behest of the American fruit company?
alpacas_anonymous | 27 minutes ago
It's bananas!
alpacas_anonymous | 28 minutes ago
The U.S has on multiple occasions toppled democratically elected governments on behalf of private corporations. Look up the phrase "banana repiblic."
lopix | 9 hours ago
Journal Entry #138: We have tried threatening our allies again. And, again, for some reason, it still doesn't work. Maybe when we do it again, tomorrow, it will work.
DJT
finzaz | 8 hours ago
The idea that the guy who often writes in all caps keeps a diary is pretty wild.
greenroom628 | 5 hours ago
i hope that future generation will look at the historical record left on twitter and "truth social" of all the insane, fucking things this idiot has said and juxtapose it to real life events that are happening.
it's our modern day version of nero playing a fiddle while rome burns.
lopix | 8 hours ago
In crayon, natch
VexeenBro | 5 hours ago
What allies? US cannot seriously be considered an ally by anyone except maybe israel and now Russia. EU must go as far away as possible from US and get full independence from their services. It will be hard at first, but clearly needs to be done, since the only “dialogue” us is interested in is fucking ransom talk. Fuck off.
ApplicationCalm649 | 13 hours ago
What's the US gonna do, tariff them? Restrict that shit. Starlink has already clearly demonstrated they can't be trusted to reliably provide service in a neutral way.
BasvanS | 13 hours ago
They’ll keep punishing the American people until Europeans know their place. And don’t think they won’t punish them even harder.
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Easy_Floss | 12 hours ago
I think they will withhold missiles that Europe already bought and restrict access to starlink.
kaljakoripallomaha | 11 hours ago
They’re already doing both, would they withhold them even harder?
They’ve already squandered their cards. If you extort everyone hard as a default position, you can’t threaten them with it any more when they don’t budge.
Easy_Floss | 7 hours ago
Thats the joke, dont really see what the US can threaten at this point sine they have started an trade war and are flunking on most of the deals they have already made.
adeniumlover | 10 hours ago
Oh yeah that will get them back in line.
ApplicationCalm649 | 12 hours ago
Starlink, which has already proven that they can't rely on it.
Easy_Floss | 7 hours ago
And the missiles they have already delayed the delivery off, America cant be trusted at all.
Lucky-Mia | 10 hours ago
Great for securing future transactions. So the US strategy is sabotage more sectors of their economy if it means hurting somebody else too. It's like there's a nation state suicide pact, but only the US signed on.
UmpireDapper1757 | 10 hours ago
Withholding arms sales to Europe might actually piss off enough Republican US Senators to get Trump impeached
ItsMeSlinky | 9 hours ago
Nah, only Israel would do that.
At this point the majority of the GOP is bought and paid for by Russia.
Sam13337 | 7 hours ago
The US has been doing this for months now with missiles and jets. There are multiple European countries who already paid billions and didnt receive them.
4uk4ata | 10 hours ago
Which sucks fit Europe in the short term and utterly tanks American companies in the middle term
big-papito | 12 hours ago
Canada is going to have to pay for this. Somehow.
[OP] diwalibonus | 13 hours ago
> What's the US gonna do, tariff them?
Well yeah. Tariffs, bans. Like they blocked a European company plus some Indian ones from the H1B visa program and accused them of "fraud". They can do all sorts of things.
ApplicationCalm649 | 12 hours ago
None of that is gonna trump their national security concerns over Starlink. Starlink can thank their actions to pressure Ukraine for that one. They've proven they're not a good faith service provider.
Ukraine may not be a part of NATO but they are an ally, and the administration flipped the switch to throttle their traffic to pressure them to capitulate to an enemy over...oil prices. No nation is ever trusting Starlink in a meaningful way again.
Shua89 | 12 hours ago
Sounds like things that effect the US more than EU.
[OP] diwalibonus | 12 hours ago
They can block European tech companies from chunks of their market just as easily. They can block access to AI platforms, all kinds of software, chip exports... the works. Starlink's just the beginning man.
Live_Turn_1737 | 12 hours ago
And that would be a idiotic thing to do, because they would show the entire world that US is not a market to get into or rely on.
Its the same reason the European Union has been so reductant to first freeze Russian bank accounts or take their money because it would essence mean they could do it to all countries and nobody wants to place their money in a region where they can just decide to take them away.
Would be a completely blow to the entire US market
biscuitarse | 6 hours ago
> And that would be a idiotic thing to do
That's basically Trump's foreign and domestic policy in a nutshell
Due-Freedom-5968 | 9 hours ago
European companies are already one step ahead here. I work in tech and the most surprising thing for me has been the speed with which both European but also Chinese AI models have been adopted.
The Chinese ones are not running in China, they're open source models running in European data centres. Seen as far lower risk (and lower cost) that relying on the USA, and Trump sealed that one when he restricted Fable several month back.
The speed of change has been frankly impressive and unsurprisingly the result has simply been to push business to America's biggest competitor.
I was recently working with a French customer who has built an in-house AI 'broker' platform which is basically a collection of different models, their staff do still have access to things like Gemini and Claude when needed, but >90% of AI usage is routed to other models which are better suited to the tasks.
Late-Photograph-1954 | 11 hours ago
ASML machines destined for US consumers rerouting to China incoming any day now.
SkitariusOfMars | 9 hours ago
ASML is probably the only true leverage EU has
214ObstructedReverie | 7 hours ago
It's really not a lever they can pull. Too much of the vital manufacturing of ASML equipment happens in the US.
toothpicks-galore | 12 hours ago
all things the EU and Canada need to focus on severing their reliance on US for these, Its all to allow the US to have a backdoor into their shit and meddle in their business
SeaworthinessDry269 | 9 hours ago
The eu can block ASML, or allow ASML to sell to china. They all have nuclear options of they want.
214ObstructedReverie | 7 hours ago
They really can't. ASML makes vital components for their machines in the US.
The actual EUV light sources themselves, for instance, are made in San Diego.
Sam13337 | 8 hours ago
They can, but this would have a serious impact on the valuation of US tech companies. And since they pretty much carry the entire US market currently, this wouldnt be pretty for the US economy.
Vlad_Yemerashev | 8 hours ago
That would be great for Chinese AI companies that are really rising in prominence whos models are now competitive in many metrics to US models, and cheaper.
Shua89 | 11 hours ago
Sure would be short term pain for EU, but because of Trump's policies and tarrifs its forcing their allies to find alternatives. EU has had no reason to seek alternatives to the US until now. In the long run it'll hurt US more.
Allydarvel | 8 hours ago
I think that's what they are doing. Just they are also trying to minimise the short term pain
Due_Satisfaction2167 | 9 hours ago
SpaceX could also just saturate the orbital space where it’s even possible to deploy a different European alternative.
One of the problems here is that the required orbital real estate isn’t quite as empty as everyone thinks.
SpaceX could literally deny them the orbits required to deliver a competing service by just filling it with satellites before they can. Or refusing to deliver the European alternatives at all—European launch providers cannot meet the sort of launch tempo required to beat them in such a race.
SkitariusOfMars | 9 hours ago
No they cannot. No one forbids you from going 20-50km higher than they do and not have your orbits intersect at all. You’ll have to have slightly bigger satellites with bigger antennas, but that’s about it.
What matters is launch capacity. No one is making anything comparable with Falcon 9 today.
Due_Satisfaction2167 | 8 hours ago
Slightly bigger, slightly faster satellites really adds up when you’re deploying massive constellations like this.
And SpaceX, could still fuck it up for them by essentially just dumping enough junk in whatever orbit they pick—after they start building their network—that they won’t be able to complete a constellation enough to offer competitive service.
greenroom628 | 5 hours ago
honestly, I would love to see a concerted effort from the EU to build their own EU owned version of starlink.
ApplicationCalm649 | 4 hours ago
It's virtually inevitable now. This administration saw to that.
Professional_Top4119 | 10 hours ago
There already has been threats to annex Greenland. One should not assume that it'd stop there.
MrKorakis | 12 hours ago
If the argument you are trying to make is that the US has no meaningful leverage over the EU Then I need to talk to you about a bridge I'm selling
LavisAlex | 11 hours ago
The leverage is far too conditional and chaotic though, they tear up deals and change tariffs like the wind.
I don't doubt it will hurt, but at the same time what else can you really do?
IndubitablyNerdy | 11 hours ago
the problem is also that even if you give in, you are not guaranteed that that leverage will not be used again, if we allow them to use it for everything their power over us will only grow as we make ourself weaker and more dependant, not less.
zjin2020 | 10 hours ago
They can sanction a certain European company, arrest some executives, those kind of things.
MrKorakis | 11 hours ago
>I don't doubt it will hurt, but at the same time what else can you really do?
I get this 100% but this is a very different take from
>What's the US gonna do
That implies they can't do anything and is clearly delusional.
Facebook_Lawyer_Gym | 10 hours ago
I think that last sentence is what are they gonna do that they aren’t already doing now. They know the US will be vindictive and a bully. They’re already doing that regardless of the EU’s actions.
LavisAlex | 10 hours ago
I was referring to EU
ApplicationCalm649 | 12 hours ago
Any other leverage the US tries to use against the EU is going to push them further away as a trading partner out of their own national security interests. This was a massive mistake and if we try to fix that by punishing the EU for reprisals we're only going to make it worse.
Kawainess33 | 11 hours ago
This whole thing started because Starlink keeps restricting access to Ukraine amid their war with Russia. The EU can’t spend their days appeasing a companythat acts against its own security.
Arengen | 12 hours ago
they only know one tool... make their citizens own pay more taxes
80sCocktail | 8 hours ago
Russia was using Starlink to guide missiles until they shut it off.
ISB-Dev | 4 hours ago
They'll restrict EU companies doing business in the US. That's what the EU is proposing to do to US companies. Read the article. They're saying that spectrum reserved for telecommunications will only be able to be bid for by EU companies.
loulan | 13 hours ago
And 34% of US citizens still approve of Trump. Not even two thirds disapprove of him, just 61%. A bit more than half. And that's after reelecting him twice.
Americans are a bunch of psychopaths.
[OP] diwalibonus | 13 hours ago
Way worse than that. I saw Fareed Zakaria(CNN) on youtube a couple days ago and he said the polls show 93% of REPUBLICANS still approve of Trump.
He's the most popular Republican President since what, Reagan? Eisenhower? He's only underwater with democrats and independents, not with his party.
sean_themighty | 13 hours ago
The “strongly approve” has dropped like a fucking rock from like 71 to the high 30s among Republicans. That isn’t nothing as that indicates at least some measure of voter apathy.
saynay | 12 hours ago
For a Republican, that basically means they hate him, just not enough that it means they will abandon the identity as a Republican. So they are stuck at “I don’t like anything he does, but I have to keep supporting him because he’s my president”. Because Republicans are a cult.
Dan_Berg | 11 hours ago
Because you can imagine how bad it would be if a democrat would be in office...
Fuck these people
turtle-splash | 10 hours ago
You forgot the /s
WarrenKB | 10 hours ago
The poll I believe you are referring to was 93% of MAGA approve of him. He’s negative with traditional republicans. Very different….
cntry2001 | 9 hours ago
What’s a traditional republican? Cause honestly after the past two years they don’t exist anymore.
PresidenteMozzarella | 7 hours ago
It's a cope people have pretending like they weren't always white christian nationalists
m0llusk | 7 hours ago
Romney and friends. They don't show themselves in public so much because that does not serve them or make them money. They are still there and they have more real power and money than the MAGA culture warriors.
Cash_Credit | 3 hours ago
MAGA = Republican
Now and forever
Verumsemper | 10 hours ago
It actually not that he is more popular but rather more polarizing thus the only people who would continue to identify as republican are the ones who still support him.
FortunateInsanity | 11 hours ago
I’d suggest being more skeptical of polls from major US news networks owned by Trump allies. 93% is an impossible number for any US president in the best of times. Only MAGA would be dumb enough to come up with a number that high.
Allydarvel | 8 hours ago
Its probably true, because the Republican party has become the Trump party. Therefore, if you call yourself a Republican these days, you'll almost certainly support Trump. The real question that should have been asked, is what proportion of people refer to themselves as Republican, because I have a feeling that may have dropped quite a lot and the number of independents increased
biscuitarse | 6 hours ago
As long as ICE is cracking skulls and ostensibly ridding the US of brown people, Republicans are as happy as pigs in shit
FortunateInsanity | 4 hours ago
The question would have been more impactful if the demographic was “conservative” instead of republican. I still think +90% is a BS number.
Stang1776 | 12 hours ago
I wouldnt believe CNN. I watch them for the headlines but they are just giving lip service to trump. Trump even played one of those clips at a rally of his.
thrilled_to_be_there | 6 hours ago
Notice what Eisenhower did, he was a maniac enabled by his secretary of state Dulles to go along with Senator McCarthy's red scare claims. They saw Communists everywhere and in everyone mostly because Eisenhower was a general and not a politician and because his party wanted global domination while chastising the Soviets for wanting the same. Remember, Eisenhower had no problem threatening nuclear war with the Soviet Union and China over the minor Taiwanese islands, a policy so perverse it has not been repeated for decades until now.
These ideas have pervaded American political understanding in some form right up until the present day with Republicans more overt in their misdirection to herd the masses into helping the special interest groups within an ever larger American sphere of influence.
This is why I laugh at Trumpist comments about Canada. Canadians are still paying for the Faustian bargain that is development for undisputed American influence. The only difference is due to Canadian historical connections to Europe Canada is better placed to resist the excesses of this policy compared to the rest of the Americas.
IndubitablyNerdy | 11 hours ago
their propaganda machine is insane plus lots USA citizens don't care much about what happens outside their homecountry (or let's be honest, themselves) Trump has carte blanche on foreign policy pretty much from his personality cult, the only way that might make them lose trust in him is money in their pockets right now (future money is also irrelevant, the fact that Trump is costing a lot long term or removing risk management like insurance that is irrelevant until you don't need it, but very relevant when you do, is invisible apparently), this is why he is desperate to lower the price of gas at the pump at all costs.
I mean Trump also screamed when Amazon showed the impact of tariffs on the purchases because that is what would havea caused him to lose support, obfuscating was enough, but he can't obfuscate the gas price at the pump with a trick like that.
Onespokeovertheline | 11 hours ago
He has tried to obfuscate the price of fuel, too, by asking sellers to artificially lower the price despite costs skyrocketing, to hide the economic impact of his blunder. Some have.
quatroquatro0 | 13 hours ago
Yeah even if trump's term is over, you still have to deal with the americans where 1/3 of them are braindead and the other 1/3 of them don't care at all to vote. And the nonvoters are as bad if not worse than the deranged trump voters who will most likely let another idiot in as president.
If there's 10 people on the bus, and 3 vote to drive off the cliff, 2 vote against it, and 5 people don't vote, you're all going off the cliff.
The world needed to stop relying on america yesterday.
justtobeherenotsure | 12 hours ago
I read an article yesterday where republicans were pissed and said: "well now I'm not even going to vote, the system sucks!"
So it's a spiral they don't understand
Glad_Stay4056 | 10 hours ago
This is the best we can honestly hope for.
dust4ngel | 4 hours ago
> now I'm not even going to vote, the system sucks
"why is this bar fight even happening? i'm going to not defend myself on principle."
[OP] diwalibonus | 13 hours ago
Plus why do we all think the Democrats are just gonna change everything back to how it was when Obama was President?
They want some of the same voters Trump got. Plus some of them actually believe in the America First crap.
gingersaurus82 | 11 hours ago
Mélanie Joly, Minister of Industry for Canada, said the other day not to expect tariffs to go away if the Democrats win. Almost none have been campaigning on tariff removal, at best you see "reduction" or "adjustment", as stated by Gavin Newsom a couple months ago when he was talking about the subject. Democrats cry foul as Trump is doing what he's doing, but they aren't against keeping a lot of his policies once he's gone. Like you said, some of them believe in the America first policy and like what's happening.
sailing_by_the_lee | 9 hours ago
There is nothing wrong with low level targeted tariffs. Most countries have them. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I think the average tariff pre-Trump was something like 2%. But Trump is an idiot. Whether we're talking about tariffs or immigration enforcement or tough negotiating, too much of a good thing is a bad thing.
ThatPhatKid_CanDraw | 9 hours ago
Yea, only a minority of them have the guts to even criticize him. Most of those are women of color who get singled out for retaliation.
The Dems are weak and not trying to do much to change that look. Just biding their time and relying on the inevitable in a two-party system.
HAc0reRD | 6 hours ago
I don’t even think the dems are weak, it’s explicitly on purpose to prevent the people from getting further left than the status quo.
SlammmnSammy | 10 hours ago
34% of Americans might be psychopaths, but your theory rests on an assumption that Americans who support trump are read in on what is going on. And I can tell you for a fact that they are not. That does not rule all the ignorant trumpkins as psychopaths, but it will excuse a few.
In America, political identify is more closely related to social / cultural aspects of life than actual policy. Every trumpkin can tell you what they're worried about: LGBTQ+, bathrooms, commies, government spending (defined as what they pay in taxes), and Iran having the bomb. All of it is nonsense. Press them for facts and the conversation stops or pivots. So there is no policy they know about or can advocate for and they have no idea about what is going on anywhere. And if they do, they learn a narrative you are not learning.
Being openly liberal in many suburbs and rural communities is great way to be ostracized. Maybe that is psychopathic. I see it as a trap or a deal with the devil. People act like politics is too complicated to understand, so they don't try. It's sad and tragic for the rest of the country and the rest of the world. I've honestly expected some European countermeasure to the misinformation we are subjected to by Russia, China, North Korea, et al, since horrible American policy affects so many people globally.
dust4ngel | 3 hours ago
> Press them for facts and the conversation stops or pivots
this is what you get from people raised in the church: people who receive orders but don't understand them, nor want to.
Training-Context-69 | 8 hours ago
It’s the boomers and Gen X that still support him. They tend to be the demographic least affected by his policies. They know they won’t get drafted to fight in Iran, they aren’t typically student loan borrowers, they’re not first-time homebuyers, they’re not new grads navigating a job market decimated by doge layoffs,tariffs,outsourcing,AI, and oil crises, and they are nearing retirement and the stock market and housing prices whose valuations were sent to the moon by deliberate devaluation of the dollar greatly benefits them.
They have no reason not to support Trump. His terrible policies don’t affect them for the most part. And for those that were affected, they’re convinced that Biden or the Canadians or the Chinese are to blame. We’re talking about people who get more pissed off at a Walmart getting stolen from than Republican politicians getting arrested for possession of CSAM, people that think taxing the elite is a sin against god. I might sound hyperbolic or unhinged to anyone reading this but this is the political voter opposition that we are dealing with. Us Gen Z and Millennials that are affected by his policies will have to reverse and fix this mess.
TWAndrewz | 12 hours ago
That's about the same fraction as support the AfD in Germany and Marie Le Pen in France. 1/3 of the population being right-wing is pretty common across democracies.
Greedy-Basil9619 | 6 hours ago
I've noticed that too, it seems like 1/3 is a common number for far right. I think the main issue with the US is there is also 1/3 who don't give a shit or are left of democrats and think republicans and democrats are the same. And the US president has too much power that impacts the rest of the world.
CamelFeenger | 11 hours ago
It’s propaganda and it’s effective
Maleficent-Bug7998 | 12 hours ago
It's dropped to 31% according to the latest polls. Still too high, but at least some of his base are turning.
Kamala-Harris | 6 hours ago
You're looking at it wrong, not every voter prioritizes the same thing. IMO, basically everyone should be a single issue voter and the one issue is SCOTUS seats. The most impactful / lasting thing almost any president does is appoint Supreme Court Justices. They are the final authority on any issue that they decide they want to weigh in on and have lifetime appointments with no oversight.
If Trump were identical in every way, but had appointed 3 (and soon to be 5) liberal Justices to the Court, I bet a huge swath of folks on the left would be okay with everything else.
Xyrus2000 | 11 hours ago
The US and its corporations are a security threat to any country, or group of countries, that relies on them. The US absolutely cannot be trusted anymore, and I say that as an American.
At the very least, you need to find alternatives that can act as a backup in the event the US elects idiots like Trump (or worse) who will just unilaterally sabotage your country just because you don't want to kowtow to US demands.
We've already demonstrated that treaties and agreements mean nothing. Continuing to rely on us is both silly and dangerous.
ebfortin | 11 hours ago
Honest question. With all you've seen, including killing people in broad daylight, what make you think these guys will just go away by losing an election?
Dazzling-Bat-7466 | 10 hours ago
They won't go down that easy, it's true. But just remember: if one's vote wasn't important, and controlling the narrative wasn't so critical, they wouldn't work so hard to stop us politically.
Do not underestimate the power of a vote.
No-Attention-2367 | 10 hours ago
Look at the power of a vote in Hungary
IWASJUMP | 9 hours ago
Exactly and Hungary was even more towards total authoritarian regime back then as to what US experiences now.
GrippingHand | 7 hours ago
Many authoritarian governments eventually learn that whether or not you respect the vote, it's very hard to maintain control if enough of the population is against you.
ebfortin | 7 hours ago
I don't see that happening in the US. They mostly think elections will resolve everything. And people get shot by the government on the streets and it barely create any reaction.
Verumsemper | 11 hours ago
They won't, unfortunately 😔
oldbastardbob | 7 hours ago
Why the fuck is the US government providing muscle for Muskrat?
I though republicanism was all about free markets, unbridled competition, and the government not picking winners and losers.
nedeta | 6 hours ago
Republicanism lost to Trumpism.
Now we are about corruption, control and punishing anyone that doesn't bow down to our Lord and Savior Donald J. Trump.
As to how? We removed the blockers that prevented large donations to political campaigns (citizens united). And 30 years of propaganda from Fox News and others have warped the world view of the conservative half of the country. Turns out people prefer a comfortable lie to a complicated and inconvenient truth.
rannend | 6 hours ago
Nah mate, it just became an oligarchy
nedeta | 6 hours ago
Yeah... I really hope we can go backsomeday.... but the number of people i see still waving Trump flags is really really depressing.
adorablefuzzykitten | 5 hours ago
New Constitution clearly calls out there shall be no separation between Space-x and State.
PestilentPaladin | 3 hours ago
Two things can be true.
OnlyHalfBrilliant | 6 hours ago
Republicans have always been lying.
UMACTUALLYITS23 | 6 hours ago
Much like state's rights, it only applies when they like it.
BatEco1 | 6 hours ago
Rubio just said they are a private company and the government has no say in what they do. So, why indeed?
Fuck4eddit4dmin | 5 hours ago
That is a very good question. So ask yourself, what is musk providing to receive this kind of special treatment.......
From selling cars on the Whitehorse lawn to flaring diplomatic relationships over starlink what is he providing in return for this........?
Its obvious.
Standby_fire | 5 hours ago
Musk has the leverage, of how Trump won the last fixed election.
dust4ngel | 3 hours ago
> Why the fuck is the US government providing muscle for Muskrat?
"He knows those computers better than anybody. All those computers. Those vote-counting computers... And we ended up winning Pennsylvania like in a landslide."
Xen7963 | 6 hours ago
Then I am afraid that you have been gaslighted
AntifaSuperSoldier13 | 4 hours ago
Yeah they were lying they always have used the state department to bully foreign countries into picking their US companies for contracts and choosing winners essentially. See Boeing and every US security contractor supplying overpriced weapons etc
bacchus_the_wino | 20 minutes ago
Because he has already donated $400mm to this midterm cycle. Do you think he does that without expecting a quid pro quo?
Boozeburger | 9 hours ago
Trump and Musk have shown that the US is untrustworthy. As an American I support the EU and Canada and Mexico developing their own satellite system. The in two years, Trump has destroyed the reputation of the USA and it might never return for generations.
iamhmhdimobf | 8 hours ago
Yes, who would rely on Starlink, if it can be turned off any moment at the wim of some crazy person. Military gear is also at risk, as it might contain a kill switch too.
mikasjoman | 9 hours ago
Well it's not that bad. It's bad, but it's not like we in the EU don't know that there's another side of the US not trying pick fights with us. But sure, the EU will definitely think twice for any deal egen if the president is democrat, because we just don't know what will change a few years later. So large collaboration will always have a shadow of "what happens if" because the risk analysis is completely different going forward.
ender8343 | 8 hours ago
I am sorry, an unreliable partner is still unreliable. The US anymore geopolitically is like dealing with a bipolar person, and let's be honest the other side can be just as self centered they just try to be more politic about pushing things.
stoniey84 | 9 hours ago
We should never ever trust the US as a country again. Even if half of them are trustworthy.
Mrsbrainfog | 8 hours ago
Exactly. We cannot be dependent on which way the tipping scale goes every 4th year.
Sam13337 | 8 hours ago
That doesnt really help much tho. Since everyone knows that Americans can just vote for the next Trump-like politician in a few years. You usually dont set up longterm contracts or strategies with a risk like that.
01209 | 7 hours ago
If you lose it, it's probably going to stay gone, tbh.
AdditionalBat393 | an hour ago
As a US citizen I hope any other country gives the middle finger to the current leadership. I also hope the rest of the world will give us a chance to earn their trust back in the future.
Additional-Stuff-700 | an hour ago
Has an EU citizen no lenger trust your country because your senate and house have no backbone to standup to a lunatic president. The way I see it no longer trust US and view it as a 3rd world country!
canyabalieveit | an hour ago
Can’t see that ever happening again. This is the kind of betrayal that will be written in the history books of other countries and taught in schools. Won’t be in ours of course, and we will forever wonder why the rest of the world hates us passionately.
FruktSorbetogIskrem | 39 minutes ago
Well past that. The American had elected him the 2nd time. The Americans are a lost cause. There’s no trust.
elementzn30 | 32 minutes ago
Well, geez, guess we should have just written Germany off after those 2 chances we gave them last century to not be evil 🤷🏻♂️
Funny-Carob-4572 | 20 minutes ago
They got absolutely battered second time round, getting hit that hard forced them to think differently
laosurv3y | 9 hours ago
So pathetic - the U.S. government is literally carrying water for Elon Musk personally - which is not anywhere near a matter of national interest. It's a very weak regime in office right now in the U.S.
So_HauserAspen | 8 hours ago
I just read a quote:
> "Musk has the money to keep Drumpf in power and Drumpf has the power to keep Musk in money"
Freedom9er | 7 hours ago
Musk in money and out of prison"
alilhillbilly | 13 hours ago
As an american, I wouldn't use Starlink or trust Starlink at this point with anything.
If I'm the EU I'm putting every dollar I can into duplicating every us computer services business with local control and I'm subsidizing the fuck out of that for the next decade if I have to just to make sure that the EU is never exposed to another situation where America elects an asset of a foreign nation who actively works to destroy the United States and its allies from the inside.
It's quite literally a national security must for them.
TWAndrewz | 12 hours ago
The problem is there is no such thing as "national security" at the EU level. Treating the EU as a single entity is a nice shorthand, but a the level of policy that this would need to operate at, it doesn't exist.
UmpireDapper1757 | 10 hours ago
Not yet.
US and Russian hostility is driving EU unification
ShadowTacoTuesday | 7 hours ago
The world is already diversifying rather than dropping the U.S. entirely, which is a lot more realistic and effective. Militaries do need to cut off many items that rely on the U.S. for maintenance and they’re working on it, but that will take longer.
JustinWilsonBot | 6 hours ago
They are driving it at 10mph. At this speed the EU will be unified by 2080.
Minerva567 | 6 hours ago
My fear is they’ll run out of time to pass some desperately-needed tweaks, eg unanimous voting, before the further rise of ultra right wing parties.
TWAndrewz | 10 hours ago
That would be great, I'll believe it when I see it.
hikingmaterial | 6 hours ago
its driving European defence cooperation, but not EU federalisation.
UmpireDapper1757 | 5 hours ago
The EU seems to be motivated to centralize on multiple fronts: defense, energy, securities regulation, and cohesion funds
hikingmaterial | 2 hours ago
federalisation and centralisation are adjacent processes, not synonyms for each other.
UmpireDapper1757 | 31 minutes ago
The only way that "moving towards federalisation" and "moving towards centralisation" would not be synonymous in the EU context is if you're contemplating the EU centralizing beyond federation towards a unitary state
Otherwise, any centralization is a step towards federalization
80sCocktail | 8 hours ago
I'm pretty sure the EU sending $250 billion to Putin to buy gas shows the EU can't quit Putin.
alilhillbilly | 3 hours ago
Yeah but clearly the EU is starting to recognize some sense of shared security even if it's not an entirely unified single country.
I understand that national security is slightly different in the EU than it is in the United States or a single nation but the logic here is the same.
Putrefied_Goblin | 7 hours ago
Although StarLink is the biggest name in "cell towers in space," the EU have Eutelsat's OneWeb. They're still developing, but they're the second largest in the world. Their shares jumped +26% after Musk/Trump/Hegseth started throttling Ukraine.
There are other players, like Amazon's LEO, and Lynk Global (the first company to prove the concept of "cell tower in space" and send a text from a satellite) just partnered with SES and have 5,000+ satellites planned, and are about to explode onto the scene.
Charming-Clue1987 | 7 hours ago
I think the EU needs to be prepared for america weaponizing space.
Putrefied_Goblin | 7 hours ago
The US, China, and Russia have already weaponized space. It's been weaponized since the 1980s at the latest (though, those older satellites and weapons have been replaced). There aren't just spy satellites in space, we know some are armed with missiles, and not just ICBM interceptors (which were originally put in orbit to intercept nukes in the upper atmosphere in doomsday scenarios), and some probably with high-energy photonic lasers or even kinetic weaponry. Some satellites are armed/designed to take out other satellites, or at least disrupt/jam them, if needed, and there have already been incidents like this.
So, that horse bolted from the barn a long time ago, and it wasn't/isn't just the US doing it, even if they have contributed the most.
Gnomio1 | 6 hours ago
It’s incredibly unlikely that “high energy photonic lasers” are in space for a couple of reasons.
Chemical lasers can get you around the energy issues, but all of the tech generates enormous heat that can’t be dissipated in space.
Putrefied_Goblin | 6 hours ago
Photonic lasers are already used in space for a variety of civilian/non-military reasons, such as communications, remote sensing, tracking, and ranging.
High-energy photonic lasers have been used/tested in space, and that is public knowledge, so we know they can be used in space, and the technology has existed for some time. They are used in deep space communications, e.g. deep space probes. Civilian experimental prototype technology and technology used in space for a variety functions have already been tested in space and are currently in use, including at the energy threshold/level needed for weapons (weapons testing in space is classified, but high-energy photonic lasers have already been tested, you can be sure). Again, this is public knowledge.
I'm not saying heat dissipation for these lasers is a non-trivial concern, but it has mostly been solved. You can research this yourself. It's already happened/happening.
Gnomio1 | 5 hours ago
The amount of energy used for communication, versus the amount needed to act as a weapon, are phenomenally different. Many orders of magnitude between them.
It’s also weird that you’ve used to term “photonic laser”, I don’t think there are any other types of laser, that’s sort of what laser is referring to (Light Amplification by the Stimulated Emission of Radiation). You can have different lasing frequencies (e.g. visible light, infra-red, X-rays etc.) but it’s all still photons.
Putrefied_Goblin | 4 hours ago
If you don't know what energy, photons, or lasers are in the world of physics/science, I get why you would feel confused and angry about this.
Do you know what photons are?
As I have said, high-energy photonic lasers are already used in space, and the threshold for weaponizing them is already reached in many civilian uses. They are already used as weapons down here on Earth.
I do think you're misunderstanding heat dissipation of high energy photons in space. Simply looking up how photonic laser beams dissipate heat in space, and looking up how this technology is created for use in space, would dissipate your confusion.
Yes, it's all photons. It refers to many types of lasers that use photons, I wasn't being specific deliberately because there are many kinds.
Charming-Clue1987 | 5 hours ago
I mean satellite to satellite warfare. taking out systems like GPS and starlink will become increasingly important in this fractured world.
Squeakygear | 5 hours ago
This is heavy on the speculation… yes, the U.S. admitted to having offensive space capabilities for the first time, letting the (long suspected) cat out of the bag. But your list of purported capabilities has no sources, and some are straight up science fiction. E.g. “high energy photonic lasers” is just word salad, and physics of heat dissipation make it highly suspect.
Putrefied_Goblin | 4 hours ago
High energy photonic lasers are already used in space for civilian purposes, such as deep orbit communications. Photonic lasers are used in every from remote sensing (e.g. lidar), signals/communications, to ranging in space already.
Putrefied_Goblin | 4 hours ago
I forgot to add that "high-energy photonic lasers" is only a word salad if you don't know/understand the physical/scientific definitions of 'energy', 'photons', and 'lasers'.
Do you know what a photon is?
Squeakygear | 4 hours ago
It’s word salad when you’re implying a weaponized system, with energy limitations and the vacuum of space hindering the heat dissipation required by a high-energy system. Additional replies to your comment already discussed this, which you hand waived off.
Putrefied_Goblin | 4 hours ago
I don't think you know enough to have an opinion about this, tbh. You also keep trying to change what we're talking about. You can look up technology that use photonic laser systems, and photon is obviously a general term (which I used deliberately). There are many different types of photons, and photonic energies.
You could go look up these technologies yourself. They aren't giant space lasers, I'm not sure what you're imagining. Weapons that literally shoot high energy/concentrated photons work in space. Ask a physicist/applied physicist/an engineer who works in these areas.
Just because you don't know/understand what I'm saying doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Squeakygear | 4 hours ago
Also, you’re a condescending ass, but that’s outside the scope of my previous reply.
Putrefied_Goblin | 4 hours ago
Go research how heat dissipation of high-energy photons in space works, then look up literally any high-energy photon technology currently used in space. I'm not talking about giant space lasers used by cartoon mad scientists, I'm talking about the ones that actually exist and are currently in use in space.
Squeakygear | 3 hours ago
Ok, here’s some facts for you:
While this web article details the inherent issues of heat dissipation for hypothetical data centers in space, it’s the same physics that would encumber a multi-MW laser system (unless it’s chemical-based and limited in firing volume, as alluded to in earlier comments) you’d need 1600 square meters of radiator for one MW.
This article, detailing these issues 25 years ago, discusses the weight limitations inherent to a space based laser weapons platform - the massive energy required to power it would necessitate gigantic solar arrays, heavy chemical loads for chemical based laser solutions, or orbital nuclear power… all of which eat into a rockets hypothetical payload - let alone the numerous treaty violations inherent to any of those power solutions. But I digress.
(I anticipate I’ll see more name-calling and hand-waiving from you, but I figure sharing knowledge can’t hurt on a forum such as this)
Putrefied_Goblin | 2 hours ago
You called me a name first? Lol... You're just using selection/confirmation bias, or don't understand what you're reading.
ActualSpiders | 10 hours ago
Seriously. If your *entire nation's military internet access* in the field depends on whether one sad little rich boy thinks you kiss his butt well enough, then you aren't an independent nation-state.
This is why wealth disparity - and the very existence of billionaires - is an existential threat to everyone else on the planet.
Cheap-Wing-4599 | 7 hours ago
Think if NATO were using Starlink and during an invasion from Russia someone decides to throttle the bandwidth.
ActualSpiders | 6 hours ago
Another reason Elon is going to help Russia in this - he'll be a war criminal if they lose.
OneMonk | 9 hours ago
Imagine thinking sovereignty is based on tech reliance.
CompleteCreme7223 | 7 hours ago
The US has done a great job at highlighting countries either need to be subservient or independent of the US and their assets. I suspect Trump has ensured we will see a dramatic shift away from many key tech industries are other countries develop alternatives to the US standard ones. AI is going to accelerate that which we already see as expensive and subscription tools from key developers are already being released for free thanks to people being able to do it on their own. The US pie is going to shrink considerably.
Dangerous_Forever640 | 10 hours ago
Yeah… France just needs to make a Starlink in the next few weeks and everything will be fine again…
toothpicks-galore | 12 hours ago
yup, the US uses its tech to keep their citizens dumb and brainwashed and this allows them to push right wing nutjobs and get success
HV_Commissioning | 11 hours ago
Please
toothpicks-galore | 11 hours ago
thank you for contributing to my point
HV_Commissioning | 10 hours ago
thank you for proving russian bots are alive and well
OneMonk | 9 hours ago
Man, everyone knows this is true.
Freedom9er | 7 hours ago
You almost got it. It does it with the support of Russian propaganda. A certain set of US leadership and elite are absolutely aligned, coincidentally or not, with same objectives as Russia. Specifically, to remove the US from its world presence as leader and police. To weaken democracy in the US and drift towards authoritarianism so criminals can evade consequences.
Killawatts13 | 9 hours ago
I’m seeing news of AI re-engineering and recreating application software every day. Once Europe starts reverse engineering all of the critical infrastructure they rely on the US for, I’m curious how important AI will be to the US gov.
Gloomy_Yoghurt_2836 | 7 hours ago
They already did that with their money transfer system between EU nations. People that work for the ICC had their access to their accounts locked because they were connected to US payment systems because of US sanctions against the ICC. Same with all their Microsoft products including Windows. Locked duenm to US sanctions. So now the EU knows this is a vulnerability and is moving to be independent of the US tech sector.
Killawatts13 | 9 hours ago
I’m seeing news of AI re-engineering and recreating application software every day. Once Europe starts reverse engineering all of the critical infrastructure they rely on the US for, I’m curious how important AI will be to the US gov.
GrowthDue5259 | 8 hours ago
I’m with you on this. As an American. If only our country wasn’t being such a pos
NegativeSemicolon | 7 hours ago
But elon really wants to see what you’re watching
Adowyth | 7 hours ago
https://www.techradar.com/phones/network-providers/europes-major-mobile-operators-are-teaming-up-to-develop-a-starlink-competitor
They already are.
reidmrdotcom | 7 hours ago
Funding and using all open source projects would really increase independence while also allowing the whole world to use the software.
Nunyafookenbizness | 7 hours ago
This. Exactly this. And very well stated.
-SineNomine- | 10 hours ago
>If I'm the EU I'm putting every dollar I can into duplicating every us computer services business with local control and I'm subsidizing the fuck out of that for the next decade if I have to just to make sure
Actually you are proposing what China is currently doing and scolded for by the very same European Union.
el_dude_brother2 | 12 hours ago
Yeah, the EU is very splintered and even has Russian assets inside them. Its a total mess.
Individual countries need to step up. They are in an awkward position but some smart decisions now will benefit them.
Ourtimehascome2485 | 11 hours ago
Frankly we need to federalize but nobody is ready for that conversation yet.
UmpireDapper1757 | 10 hours ago
I think the US and Russia are forcing that conversation
Johns-schlong | 9 hours ago
Kinda funny how the EU is learning the same structural lessons the US did during its formation 250 years later.
Mundane-Mud2509 | 3 hours ago
From the outside it seems the obvious survival decision
Defiant_Conflict6343 | 8 hours ago
I'm feeling pretty smug at the moment. I was on a SIM plan with GiffGaff, an MVNO of O2. I saw an advert on TV a couple months back that O2 were rolling out Direct to Cell satellite communication, and I thought "wait a damn minute...", googled it and just as I suspected, the DtC service is being provided by Starlink. I cancelled my contract, then put in the "why are you leaving" field a short rant about how I'd rather eat my own hair than let my money get into the hands of that narcissistic sociopathic white supremacist even by proxy of an MVNO. I'm with Vodafone now whose DtC plans are with AST SpaceMobile and their Bluebird satellites.
Kurovi_dev | 13 hours ago
Europe needs to divest from the United States as much as possible and protect itself and secure its future.
The American government cannot be trusted because its people cannot be trusted, and there’s exactly 0 sign of improvement in American society any time in even the future that could be reasonably forecast. It will be generations before this nation should be given any semblance of responsibility again.
WorldFrees | 12 hours ago
The US education system is so terrible in some places and the inequality in education so huge that people on the top dont even consider those on the bottom to be 'like' and therefore as valuable as they are.
Freud-Network | 9 hours ago
People at the top have never considered plebeians to be like them. They send their children to $60k/yr schools so they can make connections with other kids like them, instead of associating with riffraff that will never be a part of their privileged world. You are not people. You are manpower; a tool.
Kurovi_dev | 12 hours ago
Yep. And not only is nothing being done about it, but it’s getting worse. We’re in for a long and painful process.
Prestigious_Load1699 | 12 hours ago
We all have our problems.
America needs to rid itself of MAGA, and Europe needs to re-establish its priorities.
It’s still best for the global community for the US and its European allies to remain united against illiberal threats.
I still hope for the best.
The_Epoch | 12 hours ago
I'm of European origin but have never lived in Europe so almost all of my knowledge is second hand: I totally agree with what you are saying, but is the political nature of Europe part of the problem?
Painting with a broad brush, the EU seems to have a mandate without sovereignty. It's expected to act for Europe as a whole, but has no real power, especially over defence and foreign policy.
In some ways do European nations need to first decide that they like each other more than they dislike American hegemony first?
Ok_________oi | 11 hours ago
eu - not Europe, is very solid, but it is a political and economic union - not more not less. The entire concept is to give functional democratic European countries better market terms in a global market and within EU. I want to highlight this extremely hard - eu is not burning, eu is doing great, yes there is a growing group of elderly, being a issue in Germany and France, no there isn’t a immigrant crisis, all of this is being blown out of proportion by - ask yourself who. Europe is doing just as good, (outside of the manufactured energy/oil crisis, Iran+russia, that all media somehow collectively forgot about the consequences of) if not a lot better than 10-20 years ago - with countries like Poland, after becoming a eu member have experienced insane growth. There’s an absolute insane amount of misinformation going around within Europe and about Europe. Again yes there is issues, and things goes slow in a democratic beurocracy across nations - but that’s good, that’s stopping abuse and people are held accountable, and radical idealisms can’t manifest in such environment. But remember each country within eu has their own policies and political system and economic choices, which you will never hear about in the news, you will never hear about the eu successes anymore, because it’s all about American owned media and bots for that matter, slantering eu to make democracy look bad and stopping eu from growing and be a democratic world power, because that, to the worlds dictators and oligarchs is a big issue. The real war we are seeing right now, and don’t forget this, is a war on the working class, the people and democracy - funded by the Epstein class, Russia and the American government. Europe is a geographical term and isn’t one thing or a political or idealistic unit in any sense. Europe is a geographical term - includes Russia, eus biggest enemy, eu is a political organization within Europe. There is not one Europe when talking politics because there is no ties or collaboration outside of EU, because of historically countries to the east being Russian controlled politically. Generally these are also the countries where things are rowdy and often tied to a general issue in Europe when it’s really internal issues caused by Russian interference. The last year or so, poorer parts of eu countries like Germany and Spain have been targeted to be a weakpoint, where we see anti eu radical right wingers suddenly appear, radicalization comming from online forums and TikTok. Really to answer - there is no “political nature of Europe” Europe is not one thing or tied together neccecerily, there is no Europe as a whole, we are independent sovereign countries - some of us working together through EU.
cnio14 | 13 hours ago
Even more reasons for the EU to double down with this and speedrun abandoning our reliance on US tech and infrastructure. Trump is on a downward spiral and there's no point taking this threats seriously anymore
Healthy_Cancel_2604 | 5 hours ago
Never in my life growing up did I think the US would be threatening the EU. We were raised knowing how close we were and that our friendship was a true sign of how many democracy works to build bridges.
TurbulentRadish8113 | 5 hours ago
Europeans went to die to honour our alliances in the Republicans' middle eastern wars.
socialmedia-username | 11 hours ago
The current US administration's wet dream is to have every person in the world surveilled by a single entity of which they're in full control (i.e. Starlink). They NEED every device (phones, computers, vehicles, etc) to be fully connected at all times, no dead zones or other ways to hide data transmission, so of course direct satellite connection is the key. Europe wanting to preserve radio bandwidth for non-Starlink competitors is definitely going to ruffle this administration's feathers because it means they won't be able to harvest the data as easily. This isn't a market issue, it's a privacy issue.
jnordwick | 8 hours ago
Wrong tech. That would be asts not starkink.
PoliticalMilkman | 7 hours ago
Europe should do it anyway. Divorce from American hegemony. Please bar us from the international community until we start making better choices.
WinWeak6191 | 11 hours ago
This is what trade war looks like.
And why monopolies are bad.
Also, don’t forget that extreme concentration of power and wealth in individuals can make them more powerful than nations.
Did I mention corrupt intent?
SkitariusOfMars | 10 hours ago
This particular monopoly is natural. No one except SpaceX invested into reusable launchers that made Starlink economically possible. It's almost like Nokia complaining about Apple despite burying their heads in the sand to the advances in tech.
Coldfriction | 9 hours ago
That isn't true. There were a lot of companies vying for the DARPA money that was trying to get cheap access to space. The creator of Doom, John Carmack, created Armadillo Aerospace for example if memory serves. There were a bunch of them. The market doesn't want to support multiple companies, it wanta a single solution that it trusts to function. Same with Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Nvidia, Steam, and so on down a long list. Competition is great at initially selecting for what people most want, but it is I herently wasteful and once it figures out what is wanted it does nothing but produce waste. It is cheaper and more efficient to consolidate competitors or outright let them die on the vine. Competition really only exists in perpetuity if forced for most tech industries.
SkitariusOfMars | 9 hours ago
Ok, I agree with you in this. Maybe I phrased that badly. No one except USA did it. Chinese are now doing it, but Europe is still laying in a ditch somewhere along the way. They kept developing new single use rockets when SpaceX was already reliably landing Falcons. It's an intentional obsolence. Now they're trying to invest some money into it, but it's 20 years too late and 10x too little.
Far_Faithlessness983 | 9 hours ago
I'd add to your statements that we don't need more companies tossing thousands upon thousands of low orbit satellites in space so people can access the internet.
SkitariusOfMars | 9 hours ago
There’s nothing wrong with that.
Now that then have Starship that can easily launch 2 ton satellites they can also consolidate and use smaller number of larger ones to achieve same bandwidth
NavyDean | 11 hours ago
Should have thought about that before you politically ordered Starlink to turn off.
Now you've made it political.
The US admin is dumber than a bag of hammers.
Sarabeth68 | 9 hours ago
The US has set a precedence, slightly similar.
They made "China" sell Tik Tok to US oligarchs under the guise of "national security"
Well, it is probably, maybe even factually, safer for the EU to shy away from Starlink and stick to tech that is under EU oversight. Same reasons the US used for Tik Tok, which is much less of a threat
Censes1-6 | 9 hours ago
ASTS will be a winner with their global position and partnerships with the world’s largest 60+ MNOs. Not to mention their military capabilities.
Valuable-Ad2028 | 12 hours ago
On principle starlink needs to be restricted now. Is Europe sovereign or not? Would we tolerate Iran or Russia giving us ultimatums like this?
And do we want people in the EU getting more reliant on a service the US is actively weaponising against us. This is the same as Russian gas only its rural internet.
iaNCURdehunedoara | 13 hours ago
Innit interesting how "capitalism works" is always upheld by some billionaire pedophile threatening everyone else if they refuse to pay for their product?
It's also funny how NATO is a voluntary organization, and the "free world" are crumbling the moment capital owners feel their profits threatened?
akie | 13 hours ago
We have NATO to protect us from you, Ivan, so I understand why you don't like it. Bringing it up every time, even in unrelated contexts, is doing nothing to help your case.
Brave-Dragonfly3798 | 13 hours ago
In Russia there is apparently still people who believe they are a global power, when they can’t even get their shit together to conquer their much smaller neighbor. Even IF they tried to invade Europe, at the rate they have progressed across Ukraine, it would take them decades to even get there.
akie | 13 hours ago
It is in the interest of Europe to pacify Moscow and turn European Russia into a client state, ideally releasing Russia east of the Urals to their pre-imperialist configuration. But that's just me.
And yes, I realize the irony in me replying that in yet another thread about NATO. The reality is that I don't care about Russia, I only care about Russia because they fucking keep on undermining our societies and I need them to stop doing that.
Brave-Dragonfly3798 | 13 hours ago
I’m not gonna disagree, it’s just the mechanism for pacifying them that’s a bit tricky. The place has been so hollowed out by corruption and the bankrupting cost of the war that at some point the whole house of cards is bound to come down, but unfortunately Russians don’t exactly have a good track record of leadership so who’s to say the next regime would be any better?
akie | 13 hours ago
We put them under EU supervision. Like I said, client state. It's in our direct interest. Why are we the ones who have to deal with this psychotic gangster country next door all the time. It's been like this for more than a century, maybe even longer, I say it's enough. Time for them to turn into a normal society, and they are incapable of getting there themselves so maybe we should just fucking do it for them.
BasvanS | 13 hours ago
*feel their profit increase threatened
92037 | 8 hours ago
And this is exactly why it has to happen. This guy……. This guy and his cronies are soooooo fucking stupid…… I am getting slow whiplash from constantly shaking my head.
Calm-Maintenance-878 | 7 hours ago
That’s crazy, all the more reason to make competition.
Brussels should side with the EU but not take Starlink out of the equation. A better product would have to be made though…and Elon’s company is uniquely ahead in this market.
Patriarchy-4-Life | 8 minutes ago
They're trying with IRIS. But even if their proposal worked perfectly they'd have much fewer than 1% the number of satellites at somehow about the same total cost as StarLink. I'm skeptical about how it will work out, to say the least. We'll see over the next few years.
Open-Outcome-660 | 6 hours ago
Elon the russian oligarch is pulling the strings of the US government once again!
The answer from the EU should be like the treatment all russian oligarchs: sanction them, ban them from travelling here and ban their businesses here.
anewleaf1234 | 6 hours ago
At this point , star link should be seen as a tactical liability And Musk should be seen as an agent of Russia.
His companies are a direct threat to national security.
SetOk7776 | 6 hours ago
The United States has become a pedophile extortionist state.
Everything began with the Epstein case and hopefully ends with it.
Whoever chooses shit gets shit.
HistorianOk142 | 5 hours ago
Eh I would give a ra ***** what he wants or says. The retaliation can be swift with Europe dumping American bonds and crapping all over our “glorious economy”.
oilcanboogie | 4 hours ago
If anything, this would be a clear indication that no longer using Starlink should be a European imperative.
Way to show your hand, America.
theSilverBoar | 12 hours ago
But do you really think European telecommunications companies are going to back down and pay Elon Musk Star link? That will never happen in a million years, and Trump’s retaliatory measures are a double-edged sword for America itself. Who does the US trade with? Who will fill the economic void left by Europe? Russia, whose GDP is smaller than Italy’s? Those are the words of a senile old man who is afraid of facing the consequences of his own bullshit. Like it or not, the die has been cast.
DocCEN007 | 10 hours ago
Starlink has proven to be unreliable. Not due to technical issues, but often due to the whims of a rich con-man. The EU via ESA should have developed a stable alternative years ago. No time like the present.
polloasado81 | 10 hours ago
Europe had satellite internet 20 years ago. It was shit then and it's still shit now but it's not new technology
Coldfriction | 9 hours ago
Low earth orbit is needed for good satellite communication. Low earth orbit also means that the satellites will fall out of the sky after a handful of years. What Starlink is doing is trying to make enough money to constantly replace them as they fall. They have to have a world market to try to pull it off with frequent launches. Stable satellite positions are too far away and result in a lot of latency. Even having a phone conversation is difficult due to the delays. Fiber in the ground is always better if available.
DocCEN007 | 7 hours ago
Exactly. SpaceX currently has about 11,150 active Starlink satellites in low Earth orbit, out of over 12,980 total satellites launched since May 2019. ESA could have half that number up in LEO in 3-4 years if they start now.
yukumizu | 6 hours ago
The US is truly 3 corporations in a trench-coat. And the guy in charge learned to gain power from the mafia.
Once the rest of the world learns that the US is a racket, we’d be all better off.
No_Deer4983 | 5 hours ago
Curbing Starlink isn't enough; the EU needs their own alternative system and to remove both X and Tesla. Otherwise the EU will continue to be at the wims of a drug-crazed billionaire.
Good-Rooster69 | 5 hours ago
Trump is a useless and lazy piece of shit that thinks telling someone to do something themselves will scare them off when in reality it's actually a good thing
DataAbject6446 | 5 hours ago
Let them threaten us. From what we've seen recently we need to distance ourselves as much as possible from this insane man who is "in charge of America". EU can thrive without America and so we will.
Tierbook96 | 4 hours ago
Now i'm not about to claim to have any idea what i'm talking about here but.....
Don't the differenct bandwiths used by companies like starlink have to be purchased by the companies making use of them since there's only so much space before comms start interfering with eachother? If this is a case of unsold bandwith being reserved for European companies i wouldn't expect that to be a huge issue. If it's a case of the EU talking about effectively eminent domaining bandwith used by other companies to be resold to domestic companies then..... ya I can see that deserving retaliation.
ah_bollix | 3 hours ago
Well, Europe should, definitely, 100 Billion%, deny access to certain band to maintain independence and security from the US, Elon and China. And any other external entity.to coin their very own phrase, EU First.
SevenIsMy | an hour ago
If not cutting them completely out, they should at least tie them to some rules with fines, and please not the fines which can take up to a decade to get enforce.
spolio | an hour ago
Reason number 21 on why to drop starlink... unless you like other nations controlling your nation and a rich private citizen dictating what you do.
Able_Situation9977 | 5 hours ago
Well thank you Trump for sending your anti-abortionist geriatric care patient to threaten us for prioritizing our own companies while you do exactly the same with manufacturing jobs.
zhnki | 10 hours ago
It’ll be several decades, if ever, that Europe would be able to compete with starlink. Sounds like this might not be in the best interest of European consumers.
Downvote away…
wanderertomato | 9 hours ago
If you insists. Also, if Europe wants to loosen their ties to USA, somewhere, somehow, they are to begins. Tieing the knot a bit tighter because USA feels to play the bully is not the smart move in this scenario
zhnki | 9 hours ago
I mea sure, I wish them lots of luck because they will need it in this industry.
It’s possible to work hard to build the industry without eliminating access for your citizens in the meantime.
mld321 | 7 hours ago
Canada is working on launching Telesat Lightspeed by 2028. I'm sure a few countries in the EU or the EU together could launch an alternative.