China’s advantage is no longer just cheap labour. It now combines very deep supplier networks, enormous scale, increasingly strong engineering capabilities, faster product development and, in several industries, world-class manufacturing.
But labour costs and working conditions still matter. Chinese manufacturing wages remain far below Western European levels, average working hours are substantially longer, and enforcement of labour protections is generally weaker. The infamous “996” schedule is legally prohibited, but long-hours culture has not disappeared from parts of the private sector.
So the cost advantage is really a combination of high industrial capability plus a much lower labour-cost base.
That is what makes the challenge difficult for Europe. Twenty or thirty years ago, European firms could often justify higher wages through a large productivity and technology advantage. China has narrowed that gap dramatically in batteries, EVs, electronics, machinery and some other manufacturing sectors while retaining much lower labour costs.
Europe probably cannot respond simply by cutting wages or weakening labour protections. The economically sustainable response would have to come from higher productivity, automation, cheaper energy, better capital investment and faster innovation.
Otherwise European industry is being asked to compete against manufacturers that increasingly approach European technological capability while operating with a substantially cheaper cost structure.
To add to your point, china has had the scale to actually automate many parts of manufacturing through robotics. So even if labour was to get more expensive the overall cost of manufacturing might not increase much
Europe could also just put up trade barriers with China. The combined U.S and European consumer base is massive on its own without the chinese consumer base.
What I mean is that the automotive industry is already becoming far too integrated for “Europe should simply block Chinese cars” — or for the United States to do the same — to be a complete industrial strategy.
Ford is a good example. It did not disappear from Europe, but it ended vehicle production at Saarlouis in Germany after decades of manufacturing there. At the same time, Ford is restructuring around Valencia and has agreed to create a manufacturing joint venture with Geely in Spain. So even Ford’s attempt to remain competitive in Europe increasingly involves cooperation with a Chinese manufacturer.
Brazil is moving in the same direction, perhaps even faster. Geely acquired 26.4% of Renault do Brasil and gained access to Renault’s industrial structure in Paraná. Geely vehicles are being localized there, while Renault has confirmed that future Brazilian products will also use Geely architecture. Stellantis is doing something similar with Leapmotor: instead of Leapmotor building an entirely separate factory, the B10 and C10 are being localized inside Stellantis’ existing Brazilian manufacturing network.
And this is not limited to those two companies. GM has worked with SAIC for decades, Volkswagen has its long relationship with SAIC and is now working with XPeng, Renault is integrating with Geely, Stellantis owns part of Leapmotor, and Ford is now partnering with Geely in Europe.
So what exactly is a “Chinese car” anymore?
Is a Geely manufactured in a Renault plant in Brazil simply a Chinese car? Is a Leapmotor assembled by Stellantis? What about a Ford manufactured through a Ford-Geely joint venture in Spain?
That is why I think the real industrial question is increasingly about who owns the platform, who controls the software, batteries and power electronics, where the engineering is done, where the supply chain is located and where the value added remains — not simply the nationality of the badge on the bonnet.
The United States makes this contradiction even more visible. Chinese EVs are already sold just across the border in Mexico. People in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California can see Mexican-registered BYDs, Geelys and other Chinese vehicles on American roads, even though those same models generally cannot be bought and permanently registered by an American consumer.
So this is not simply a case of “Americans do not want Chinese EVs”. There is an explicit trade, industrial and national-security policy keeping most of them outside the American market.
Meanwhile, American manufacturers are trying to electrify a market that has spent decades moving toward large SUVs and pickup trucks. Chevrolet now has products such as the Bolt, Equinox EV, Blazer EV and Silverado EV, but the U.S. product mix remains much larger and more expensive than the compact EV market developing in China, Mexico, Europe and parts of Latin America.
Ford illustrates the difficulty as well. The current F-150 Lightning strategy has been reworked, while the American market remains heavily dependent on trucks. Even the “smaller” pickup segment contains vehicles such as the Ranger, Tacoma and Colorado, with the Maverick below them, while full-size F-150s, Silverados and Rams remain enormously important.
That creates a structural problem. Western manufacturers spent decades optimizing their profits around large, high-margin combustion vehicles. Chinese manufacturers, meanwhile, built enormous scale in batteries, compact EVs, power electronics, software and increasingly sophisticated manufacturing.
Tariffs can absolutely have legitimate purposes. They can preserve employment, strategic capacity, bargaining power and national-security interests. They can also prevent a domestic industry from being overwhelmed before it has time to adapt.
But tariffs only buy time.
They do not automatically make European or American manufacturers more productive. They do not reduce battery costs, improve software, shorten development cycles or create competitive small EVs.
And that is why I see some of the current response as technological protectionism: trying to preserve the old competitive structure after the technology and the supply chain have already changed.
Europe cannot sustainably compete by reducing wages and labour protections to Chinese levels. The United States cannot solve the problem simply by keeping Chinese EVs outside its borders while continuing to rely on an expensive, large-vehicle product mix.
The sustainable response has to be higher productivity, automation, cheaper energy, faster engineering cycles, competitive batteries, better software and manufacturing scale.
Otherwise the irony becomes obvious: governments may keep Chinese-branded cars outside the market while their own manufacturers increasingly integrate Chinese platforms, technology, capital and industrial partners into the vehicles they build.
Protection can delay competition. It cannot make the underlying competitiveness problem disappear.
Tutto giusto il tuo discorso... Con la Cina in certe cose non competi, secondo me ha senso farli entrare fargli fare le macchine nei nostri stabilimenti con manodopera italo-cinese... almeno noi torniamo a comprare una macchina a un prezzo onesto, no perché per comprare una macchina che fino a 10 anni fa pagavi 15000 euro adesso la paghi 25000, tra guerre, dazi e questo e quell'altro. Secondo me sarebbe meglio così per tutti...
Sì, è esattamente questo il punto che stavo cercando di fare.
Se in alcuni segmenti l’Europa non riesce più a competere direttamente con i produttori cinesi, la risposta non deve necessariamente essere “chiudiamo il mercato”. Un’alternativa è farli produrre qui, dentro l’UE, con stabilimenti europei, lavoratori europei, fornitori locali e regole europee.
In questo modo il consumatore può avere più concorrenza e prezzi più bassi, mentre almeno una parte del valore aggiunto — produzione, occupazione, logistica, componentistica e tasse — rimane in Europa.
Per me la vera questione è questa: dove viene prodotto il valore e chi controlla la tecnologia, non semplicemente quale bandiera c’è sul cofano.
Naturalmente bisogna evitare di sostituire una dipendenza con un’altra. Se l’Europa si limita ad assemblare automobili progettate interamente altrove, mantenendo fuori dall’UE batterie, software, elettronica e ricerca, il problema industriale rimane.
Ma tra questo e semplicemente mettere dazi sempre più alti per mantenere artificialmente in vita prodotti che costano 25.000 euro quando dieci anni fa un’auto equivalente ne costava 15.000, preferisco una strategia di produzione locale, concorrenza e integrazione industriale.
È anche per questo che penso che le joint venture possano essere molto più interessanti del semplice protezionismo: permettono all’Europa di mantenere fabbriche e competenze mentre costringono i produttori tradizionali a diventare più competitivi.
Brazil is actually a useful example of why tariffs can slow competition without necessarily eliminating the underlying demand.
Brazil gradually restored import duties on electrified vehicles and, since July 2026, fully built imported EVs and hybrids face a 35% import tariff. The Brazilian automakers’ association, representing the established manufacturers, actively pushed for the tariff schedule to be maintained and accelerated.
Yet Chinese cars have continued to grow very quickly. In the first half of 2026, registrations of Chinese-made vehicles almost doubled compared with the previous year, and China accounted for roughly half of all imported vehicles. Chinese brands now account for a significant share of the Brazilian market despite most of their recent growth having initially come through imports.
That is important because Brazilian consumers are paying not only the normal cost of the vehicle but also a substantial tariff, and the products are still competitive enough to gain market share.
The response from Chinese manufacturers has also not simply been to give up on Brazil. It has been to localize production: BYD is producing in Bahia, Geely is integrating with Renault’s plant in Paraná, and Leapmotor is being localized through Stellantis.
So the tariff may actually accelerate the next stage of the process: instead of Chinese companies merely exporting cars, they invest locally or partner with incumbent manufacturers.
This is why I do not think “just put up trade barriers” solves the competitiveness issue. It can change where the vehicle is assembled and give domestic industry time to adapt, but it does not automatically make an incumbent manufacturer’s product more attractive.
Brazil is already showing that consumers can continue moving toward Chinese-designed vehicles even behind a substantial tariff wall. If the price, technology and equipment remain competitive after a 35% import duty, then the underlying issue is clearly larger than the absence of protection.
Protection can buy domestic manufacturers time. What they do with that time is the important part.
The trade protections were there so that europe could have time to adapt and increase the quality of the cars and cheapen supply and manufacturing designs.
The systems are free trade based so buffers were always gonna be temporary. A small tariff will not protect your companies if the competition is a much better choice
Con la Cina non hai scampo ormai...li accetti e bona, bisogna anche saper perdere c'è poco da stare lì ...nella storia l'Europa è stata dominante nei secoli, adesso no ...cosa puoi fare? Capire come fanno e copiare come hanno fatto loro con noi ...
My head is spinning with all the chinese psy-op and thought nudging, European subreddits are in a really bad state. Anything pro-Europe is immediately downvoted and top comments are often "Europe relies on China for X without alternatives".
And watch this being downvoted too
Europe is in a very tough spot economically. Welfare states require economic growth and a healthy demographic distribution. I love Europe but the Draghi report was right. Europe needs to become more competitive.
Hard to compete with low wages and 9am to 9pm 6 days a week. Unless you want to forfeit the human rights that makes Europe Europe. As for automation and robotics... Well China has it too.
Europe’s tech sector is at least eight years behind the U.S. and China. That won’t be fixed by taxing billionaires more, and it is a severe vulnerability that will absolutely mean the difference between victory and defeat in any conflict.
Europe is absolutely behind, but it lacks any sort of real leadership or resolve to incur short term pain for long term growth.
What's the "8 years behind" actual meaning? Like what actual metric are we talking about?
That it isn't currently full of fascist techbros?
> Europe is absolutely behind, but it lacks any sort of real leadership or resolve to incur short term pain for long term growth.
Behind in what exactly?
I do agree that it has problems in leadership, mostly because it still refuses to federalize, or reign in oligarchs and corporations that chase next quarter while sabotaging long term (prime example being EU car companies sabotaging electrocars the last 10 years, to squeeze little more value from ignition engines, which threw away the EU lead in el.cars)
> What's the "8 years behind" actual meaning? Like what actual metric are we talking about?
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> That it isn't currently full of fascist techbros?
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> Europe is absolutely behind, but it lacks any sort of real leadership or resolve to incur short term pain for long term growth.
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> Behind in what exactly?
This article goes pretty in depth as to the ways that European technology and productivity is lagging behind the world’s leaders. Whereas in the early 2000’s it was at about 95% the productivity level the U.S., it now lags by about 20%.
While there are still valid questions about the long term sustainability and efficacy of AI, denying the importance of the tech such as its impact on defense and overall economic productive capacity is really no different than just sticking your head into the sand. Europe lacks the tech needed to adequately defend itself, and it has steadily ceded market power (key for retaining soft power across the globe) to the U.S. and China. These factors only continue to compound as greater percentages of spending are going to the welfare state, while countries across the continent fail to innovate and invest in their economic futures.
Well, what is it behind in then? I wasn't making a point I was asking for clarification of their point, because I don't see the Europe "behind behind behind" meme being real.
Look at AI. Look at software. You are probably using an iPhone using facebook apps for social media, using google for search, using chatgpt for ai, etc.
Look at the US big tech. Europe has no equivalent, not even much worse ones.
This is nonsense. Talk about “oligarchs” is a complete distraction, they do not have the kind of continent-wide economic impact that this article is contemplating. Europe either needs to seriously reevaluate its policies that have allowed it to economically stagnate or enforce much more comprehensive protectionist measures to cut out cheap Chinese alternatives.
Oligarchs moved industries abroad (for cheap labor), and stopped paying taxes. This destroyed industries in Europe, while allowing oligarchs to own Europe.
“Oligarchs” do not constitute the entire industrial base of Europe, not even close. They represent a centralization of economic power but not the entire basis of it. Any explanation that focuses on them is missing the forest for the trees.
Pretending that oligarchs have all the economic power rather than just an outsized portion compare to their number is missing the forest for the trees.
All, no, special interest groups have a lot of power as well. Though that also ultimately comes back to capital.
Regardless of the level of influence, we both acknowledge it is a large outsized one, which is weird to then turn around and say ignore it.
A nations mode of production is the single most important factor in influencing every major decision. And when that is dominated by the owners of capital that absolutely matters
Remember the reason European (esp the rich one) can have <=40 hr / week work hours with generous benefit and leave is that their parents and grandparents worked hard so companies like VW/Stellantis can extract huge Value Added from their products due to brand, patents, process etc.
Once the later is gone then everything gone including your benefit
If other people are working harder than you, you either work as hard as they are or work smarter. Europe seems to do neither. Which is why their companies kinda suck.
Something has to give. Europe is going to have to cut social welfare spending if they don’t become more economically competitive but every time France tries to reform welfare, protestors burn down Paris lol
European workers are more productive than their Chinese counterparts. You don't need to work 9am to 9pm, you need lower taxes so people can actually invest in production.
That's not what the definition of productivity is in economics. European workers are more productive because Europe has more capital accumulation -- i.e., more and better technology -- per worker and a more educated workforce that can make effective use of that capital.
The proof is in the pudding. The EU's GDP per hour worked is 70 USD, while China's is 30 USD. And that's adjusted for PPP. The nominal numbers are way more skewed toward Europe.
The danger Europe faces is that their labor production has stagnated for well over a decade. It has grown by a meager 2-3% while China's has grown over 200% in the same 2 decades. Obviously, as an advanced economy, it shouldn't be expected to grow as fast as a developing one, but 3% is woeful. By comparison, here in the US, labor productivity has grown by 50% in the same period.
Let's try what we've tried since 2008 - invest nothing and gut infrastructure and social investments and social welfare. That'll help, that's not the opposite what China is doing.
Short term capitalism thinking caused the European and Western companies to outsource production and know-how to China. It was such a stupid move strategically. Good for China I guess.
Europe is a social democracy system while China is a hyper capitalist system. Social democracy will have a very hard time competing against the hyper capitalist country.
People in this sub and every other main sub sat there and watched it happen. There used to actually be thoughtful discussion here about economics and now it's just Temu TikTok.
Oh yeah, reddit is shit for actual nuanced discussion these days. Honestly, has been for at least 5 years, probably more. Bots and bad faith posters(actual bot farms) killed it
Yeah try telling a Volkswagen employee that all of that is just Chinese psy op.
You'll probably get decked. Seriously, if you don't know how rough things are for German conglomerates right now don't try to make light of things. It's insulting.
To be frank, this came down very fast by automotive/manufacturing standards. I was involved in the chinese car industry from a supplier point of view, about 9-10 years ago. They produced complete garbage back then, 1 star NCAP, unsafe, unreliable garbage, with russian sourced 1.5L outdated petrol engines. I had insight into the chinese cutting edge of automotive and nobody even saw this in chinese factories back then. They made a 5 year plan sometime after and decided they focus and dominate the industry whatever the cost.
I do believe after EU competitors are eliminated, chinese cars wont cost 15-20k anymore, but they will be sold for exactly the same as vw or legacy car prices.
>I do believe after EU competitors are eliminated, chinese cars wont cost 15-20k anymore, but they will be sold for exactly the same as vw or legacy car prices
I am in the EV industry and this is a very wrong belief, unfortunately. The Chinese cars sold in the EU, and to a lesser extent here in Australia, have insane margins compared to back in China. So much so that they are using them to rake in the money needed to fuel their price wars back in China.
So no, they're not going to raise the prices. They were actually thinking of going lower, as in getting into another price war, but in Western markets. Just because they had so much room to play with. The CCP is currently trying to stop it.
I find it funny that people assume China is just one large supplier rather than a horde of large companies engaging in cut throat competition with each other all day long. Maybe we've just grown accustomed to the cartel like anti-competitive behaviour that has become the norm in the west and assume that's just the way things should be.
I doubt it, they can't even get their food delivery prices up due to internal competition. The same will be for their car industry. China internal competition is higher compared to external competition from the rest of the world.
Pure bull. They knew they were gonna take a long time to catch up with ice cars. So they concentrated on battery tech like 20 years ago. At the time America and south Korea were the leaders in n battery tech. They had like 3 branches forward. The battery branch beat the other 2. Now their ice and hybrid tech also caught up. It isn't just the engine, Chinese car interiors are top tier too.
You are probably too young to really remember but 9 years ago I was in Shenzhen when they changed all the buses and taxis of the whole city to EVs. Like thousands and thousands. All this started as a project in earlies 2000s to develop EVs and make all the technology require for them. It has been very open and public what the CCP has been doing along with the tech companies. The west just chose to underestimate them and got it wrong.
>I do believe after EU competitors are eliminated, chinese cars wont cost 15-20k anymore, but they will be sold for exactly the same as vw or legacy car prices.
People like to say this but this has never happened with a product in which China has a monopoly in.
All of these are dominated by China, yet all of them have been coming down in price year after year.
China makes like 95%+ of Ethernet cables in the world. If they want to double the price tomorrow, there's no alternative (at least for 1-2 years until a factory can be spun up in Vietnam or India).
Rare earth is used as a retaliatory measure, rather than offense.
Smartphones and computers are going up in price due to chips inside NOT made in China, but rather in SK, tw, US, etc.
All this fear mongering that you have is not backed by data. Just because Western capitalist fucked you, doesn't mean China will.
Yes, that the rest of the world still has a long way to catch up with Europe. Don’t forget that the point of GDP and the economy is to improve people’s life, not the other way around.
At the pace things are going, maybe China will give plundering Europe a go then and let Europe pay back historical debts with interest lol. They'll catch up then.
If companies are charging so they can pay for so many holidays, high taxes that get given out to people instead of invested in common infrastructure, then no way they can be competitive
For a long time rich Chinese were supporting the European luxury goods companies but being married to a Chinese person has taught me two things
Chinese people are not stupid and know low quality, they won’t pay for brand names for long, and also Chinese people can and will boycott a company over anything. People may laugh when they see people ripping up clothes because they refuse to use xinjiang cotton, after all they paid for the clothes, but that company is done forever in China (Nike for example)
It's not just Europe. Reddit is chock full of pro-china bots pushing the same narrative in American centric subs too.
I'll give China their due that they do infrastructure buildouts better than many European countries and MUCH better than America, but that is the benefit of a centrally planned government system.
I still think it is going to be a long while before the West associates China with luxury or high quality, and not just cheapness and stolen copyright.
I honestly think China has kind of lucked out and was "at the right place at the right time". China and India had the same GDP in 1990. Central planning did nothing for cuba and NK.
Been this way for a while now, at least since tencent bought a share. The Russians showed the world how to do it, but I think the Chinese are way better at it.
Same with Japannews.
The anti immigration bs that Takaichi passes should be criticized, but the sub should not be a constant stream of Japan bad. Even a lot of the headlines are translated in bad faith.
Ever since the spat between Takaichi and China started over Taiwan late last year, I feel like reddit as a whole has gotten a lot more anti-Japan. I see way more people complaining about Japan glazing than I do actual Japan glazing, not to mention reddit suddenly being obsessed with WWII war crimes that they never cared about a year ago.
every bit of news about japan is a circlejerk over "did you guys know they did warcrimes? i went there and they don't self-flagellate enough!", it's kind of wild.
I have been seeing so many "[insert European country] can't compete with China in [insert industry] so they really should just abandon it." comments recently, either they are bots or idiots.
Competition framed as "coming for your industries!" is a weak attempt at fear mongering.
Fact is, at this point EU can't compete with China in industry, that's it.
Energy is too expensive, population too old, too much money is required for pensions and other things while tax income is too low in spite of high taxes.
EU should focus it's efforts somewhere else, where these advantages that China now possesses don't hold significant edge over the competition.
Those $1000 Gucci sneakers and many of the so called luxury products were never worth what's being charged. They often use genetic materials and produced at low cost sites like other brands. But the "luxury" brands cap their production figures, sometimes destroy excess inventory, and over market their brands to bring up the price of their products. If people turn to the alternatives that are 10x cheaper, looks about the same, lasts about as long, and does the same thing, that's the "luxury" brand's fault for selling overpriced stuff.
China has to go after everyone's industries. They want to be 100% self reliant, both for historical pride and to protect against pressure/attacks. But they don't want domestic consumption to grow meaningfully. So they have to export. And they're very efficient and have become very technically capable.
It’s not that they don’t want domestic consumption to grow, but they do want to keep their exports high. To do that the government keeps the RMB low. The impact of that is high exports and low domestic consumption.
The goal of keeping the RMB low is to prevent people's standard of living from growing too fast. They want people to keep working rather than using their newfound wealth to finance shorter work days and more vacation days.
I believe that increasing exports are a higher priority for the government. That’s different than saying it wants to keep domestic consumption down. Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. The real world forces you to make trade offs.
Did I say they want to keep consumption down? And choosing a priority is the choice. It's like the bad boyfriend that says he wants to invest in the relationship but spends all his time practicing for marathons. Actions are more important.
They will naturally go after everyone's industries because they're 1.4 billion people.
It has nothing to do with a desire not to have domestic consumption. China isn't even all that export driven. 20% of GDP. In Sweden it's >50%. In Germany it's 40%.
Historical pride is irrelevant too. Simply, because there are so many people they will make everything from chips, operating systems, cars to toothbrushes.
China has a population problem. Many people growing old with few young people to replace them. The one child policy has created unintended consequences.
Yes, but the same is true of the other developed countries.
It's not like they're going to be <1b, and the US + EU ~= 800 million. In the end it depends on the quality of the schools. If they can maintain that, any industrial activity that happens in the US or EU is going to have a counterpart in China.
What with LLMs I think lockin is going to be really hard, so the future is something hypercompetitive-- software, computers, chips, even exceedingly advanced goods that previously could command huge premiums having tiny margins because even the fanciest stuff has a counterpart on the other side.
True. But also consider the imbalance between male and female offspring is greater in China due to the preference in sons over daughters. This will cause problems as the population ages rapidly.
> It has nothing to do with a desire not to have domestic consumption. China isn't even all that export driven. 20% of GDP. In Sweden it's >50%. In Germany it's 40%.
you are comparing two misleading statistics. a lot of the 'export' is just going to countries within the EU.
if you check like the stats then germany's exports are Intra-EU Share: Roughly 56% and Extra-EU Share: Roughly 44%.
Aka germany exports to other EU countries are like ~18% of gdp while to countries outside EU is also around ~22% of gdp. its not that different from china
“They don’t want domestic consumption to grow” lmao god Americans are so fucking stupid
They have actively been trying to boost consumption for years . They are struggling to do it. Please inform yourself before opening your primitive American mouth.
So the loan subsidies , demand fund , pension reforms all of it is not an attempt to boost consumption? You literally don’t know anything. Go back to playing DraftKings you western ape
What on earth are you talking about? Incompetence? They are trying multiple levers to boost consumption but it is not working due to numerous structural headwinds , property market deflation, internal price competition etc.
They have multiple times emphasized how involution is a problem and they are trying to slow down the industrial subsidies because it’s putting downward price pressure and lowering consumption.
I’m telling you, you don’t know anything about this topic so please just go read something before posting online things like “they don’t want to do it cause they want to dominate every industry”
Lmao again, the fact you think that something as big as Chinas economy can just be solved by a few changes and that would show competence speaks volumes about how stupid you actually are.
These things are not easy, the US is trying to bring manufacturing back right? Is it not working due to incompetence? Or is it not working due to structural reasons like the current account balance of a US and its place as a reserve currency?
Again. You are extremely simple minded and you are the one who should not be in an economics sub
I've never heard someone pretending the US Federal government is competent. Even the goal of 'bringing back manufacturing' is a bad one as the US manufactures more now than in the past, just with fewer workers.
But people do like to pretend the CCP is competent. Good to know they're on the same level as the US.
And you really need to research more insults. You're getting quite boring.
Right, they're trying to accelerate weak policies relative to industrial support because they realized their actions over emphasizing industry have overwhelmed their actions to support consumption. The article you linked is fairly recent, time will tell if their actions change to back up their words.
But instead of citing the cheap labor long associated with Chinese factories, the fashion house said it picked a Chinese manufacturer known for its “technological know-how” and ability to meet the brand’s quality standards.
China isn’t what it used to be. Sure there are lots of companies cutting corners there still, but they can absolutely make good quality too and today if you just want to make something as cheap as possible you’ll choose some other third world country
Mfs will use an iPhone pro max or whatever made in China to say shit like this lol. Even swiss watches have a bunch of components that are made in China.
People can't seem to wrap their head around the fact that a country manufacturing advanced tech can also compete in manufacturing silly little leather bags lmfao.
People complain about subsidies, lack of regulation and cheap labour, but regardless of how they got there, they now have a pretty well established manufacturing sector and the control over supply chains that you can't simply pretend like it doesn't exist.
Yeah, but what makes a phone work(the chips) are not made in china, so people dont consider phones Chinese made. Which is probably a good assumption tbh
I know they are. But they're still way behind TSMC, Qualcomm, intel, micron, shit even Nvidia. The chips race has been going on for literally decades and decades and China remains a decade behind at least.
debatable, XRing 03 is a 3nm chip launched by xiaomi this year which has better performance than a20 pro, SD elite gen 6 and dimensity 9600 pro (all 2nm chips) so they are not decades behind in SoCs at the very least. GPUs yea but that they will reach by 2030 most likely or not, it dont matter much once AI bubble is burst.
China industrial base has everything. You want cheaply made craps? They have a base over there, you want elite engineering quality? They also have it, but expect to pay EU/American price for it.
Why would it have to be EU/american price? Despite strong wage growth a skilled technician's total comp is still substantially lower in China, they have technology, Volume, ecosystem and still relatively cheap salaries.
Makes me wonder where the inneficiency is ?
Because high quality stuffs is hard to make, and the skilled workers that make them command higher wage and the company that own the specialized industrial base also want to make money?
Not even close to American prices, although starting to converge to EU prices for skilled labor.
Using software engineer salaries for example: if a US role paid $300k USD, the equivalent role in Western/Northern Europe would be $150k, and $100k in China.
It seems like this is a normal progression in the post WWII era.
Country A industrialized with poor workers rights and cheap labor, undercutting other producers. Then transitions to competing with higher quality focus as the workers gain the technical expertise that makes that possible. Then someone else starts to industrialize and undercuts the low cost side of production, and country A centers entirely on higher tech production only possible with its now broadly skilled workforce.
Maybe there is a subsequent stage if countries dont get derailed in the progression by whatever flavor of crisis
This is capitalism at work, if you can get a higher outputs while utilising the same or slightly higher inputs, you move on to higher output products that will net you higher profits.
People are downvoting me, but i wish they would explain where they disagree - im intellectually interested but just not a trained economist. Thanks for following on with real insight!
I'll help you with an explanation, if you work the same number of hours, would you rather be making chopped firewood for 5 bucks a bunch or making timber beams for 500 dollars each?
You may not be able to make timber beams at the start due to your skill level but as you learn to wield you axe better, you can go on to make timber beams which make you more profit. Then you can then invest in a better axe and make timber beams better and quicker, netting you more money.
This is how countries work too, as they gain more skills with their labour base, they will want to move up to better products which require more skill and equipment to make but much more significant margins on the same amount of labour.
You can look at chopped firewood as goods like clothes and home appliances as wooden beams. This keeps going until you get to things like computer chips which then moves onto more IP centric things which no longer need much capital equipment and merely extremely highly skilled labour like semi conductor design, software development etc.
I ocassionally visit China for work. What I see there in their machine shops is far advanced compared to what I see in North America. Here, a company is happy to purchase a few cnc milling machines. There, I see rows of them and all cutting.
If you keep thinking that way, you will never realize you are losing the race. They have taken technology to a different level. I work for one of the automakers. We are stripping down their cars to see how they are doing it. We are falling behind here.
They call them communist. I was dating a Chinese lady for awhile. She owned her house here, then she bought one house and rented it out. Few months later bought few dumps and had them fixed up and flipped it. She wanted me to go in with her and her sister on a strip mall but I was worried they were going to screw me. Regardless...sounds like capitalism to me.
This was true maybe 20 years ago, but not really anymore. As a small example, the cost for low volume PCB board manufacturing is incredibly cheap and fast in China and done at a high quality. This is because of the high end pick and place machines they invested in, not because of cheap manual labor. You can get a set of board, fully cut and populated in two weeks for an order of magnitude (or two) cheaper than in the US.
I think the poster is indicating that Apple invested about 50 billion in Chinese manufacturing for decades but required producers to only sell it 25% of the gross product, probably a CCP informed decision, so yeah, China HAD to technologically advance, because they were contractually obliged to. Apple effectively caused their own future competitors, launched a massive push to technological supremacy, and in many ways was the first domino to where we are today.
If we're on to "same shit different day," then I can fairly confidently say that the same thing that has held China back for the last 3,000 years will probably continue to hold it back in the future. There have been a number of fairly disastrous decisions (one child policy for example) which, among others, have hobbled China recently despite these advances at the margin.
It's in California, why would you think that...
I was just pointing the absurdity of the two comments. I say my phone is not "made in China" and you guys think that leaves only USA and Europe.
You have hidden your comments, so I'll assume you are a white American. (Because in my experience, they are the most racist against Chinese.) China is the global leader in a whole array of critical technologies.
The one thing that China cannot “copy” is heritage. That just comes with delivering quality products over an extended period of time.
Take watches, China can, will, and have match the technical mastery and design of any watch brand for a fraction of the cost. What they can’t duplicate is the 100+ years if history of a house such as Rolex or Patek. But that will change as the domestic Chinese brands consistently deliver quality products over time (eg Atelier Wen).
What are the material, tangible, measurable benefits to "heritage" that aren't just branding/marketing, and why do they matter to the average consumer?
"What are the material, tangible, measurable benefits to "heritage" that aren't just branding/marketing"
None.
"and why do they matter to the average consumer?"
You will have to ask the average consumer that question.
I'm not making a judgement on heritage being "better" than technical mastery. It isn't. I'm saying heritage cannot be copied. It takes time.
The brand story, perceived status, exclusivity, and cultural symbolism is different than the technical and design of an item.
Omega's Speedmaster watch was the first watch on the moon.
One day, when Atelier Wen is on the wristwatch of the first Chinese astronaut on the moon, maybe they can sell the story too and elevate the brand above just technical and design mastery.
I am laughing at Gucci's statement. Imagine paying $1000 for Gucci sneakers made in China? Yikes. People pay the premium because of the made in Italy tag. Then again, since covid alot of poor people buy Gucci now so makes sense. As long as it says Gucci.
I am in manufacturing in USA and im buying a Chinese laser made by GWEIKE. Its 70% cheaper than American and European models. The quality is good enough paying 70% less. Chinese make good products but when I want a premier car I'll buy a Benz not whatever shit china is selling.
China is the global leader in ship construction, EVs. and solar technology, among many many other areas of "hard" technology and industry. They are way ahead of the US and Europe.
And you don't think they can make a handbag?
Incidentally, I think you are not well informed about who physically makes a lot of brandname stuff in Italy today. You might want to google that.
I think they can make a hand bag just as well. Its the "Made in China" label that they can't get rid of. Hey, in a generation or 2 that might not matter but now Europeans and Americans dont want nice things that say "Made in China"
Many premium products are made in China, look at the iPhone. Using Mercedes Benz as an example is funny because they are one of the least reliable car brands. Consumer Reports ranked them 23rd among 31 car brands you can buy in the US.
This isn’t the 1990s, China has caught up in car manufacturing. China exported 4.2 million cars in just the first half of 2026. Just looking at BYD, they sell in 119 countries and are on target for 1.5 million vehicles sold outside China this year.
They’re not wrong tho? I’ve got a few friends who are retailers that used to buy from china only if they had a high order quantity or local suppliers were expensive.
However, in recent years they’ve been travelling and buying because the products are simply much better in quality and they no longer need high order quantities for a good price.
The brands crafting their leathers in Italy also use African and Asian migrant labor in extremely poor working conditions.
> "For my type of work, I had to stand up for 14 hours, working on my feet," recounted Abbas, who said he worked alongside around 50 Pakistani, Afghan and Chinese migrants, making bags and leather accessories for international luxury brands. He declined to identify the workshop for fear of retaliation.
> "My legs hurt so much, I couldn't sleep at night. I couldn't go to the toilet anymore, or sit down," said Abbas, who declined to disclose his full name or give details of his current contractor for fear of losing his job.
Don't tell me, tell the people who think China is is nothing but evil oppressors and copyright thieves, while the US is nothing but cuddles and sweet dreams.
A more direct comparison is with Italy where these fashion brands are from, you'll see subcontractors employing undocumented workers and paying them a few hundred euros for 14-hour days.
Yes it’s whataboutism. But it’s also valid criticism of pure hypocrisy.
American news outlets has valid concerns about Chinese supply chain logistics.
At the same time there is valid criticism that those same news outlets indirectly benefits from the same fruits of illegal or unconstitutional labor that China engages in.
So Fortune made a valid criticism, but it is 100% hypocritical.
I agree that it is whataboutism, but prison labor in the US is often more than just supporting the prison itself.
Most wildland firefighters are unpaid or low paid prisoners. They can't even do the job professionally when they get out because of their conviction.
Many prisons also engage in productive activities. Manufacturing and stamping license plates being a famous example.
China has used it's extreme surplus of labor and naked labor exploitation to undermine industry and manufacturing in other countries for a long time, and also other countries (the US in particular) uses extremely exploitative labor practices. The only reason industrial economies making goods to sell to their own markets don't typically use slave labor is because slaves can't buy mass produced goods. Manufacturing for export, can absolutely do that though.
Yea some of them sell goods and I think it's wrong if they prisoners don't make a wage. It's still a false comparison and has nothing to do with Gucci.
Yea… pointing out a stupid comparison is licking boots. If we want to do apples to apples, what’s China’s prisons look like? Not too good.
Instead of racing to the fucking bottom with this “but bad America and does X” stay on topic and demand Gucci do better.
If there’s a post about America’s prisons and some wanker mentions how Gucci uses forced labor in China, would you not think that is some weird whataboutism???
Yea… pointing out a stupid comparison is licking boots. If we want to do apples to apples, what’s China’s prisons look like? Not too good.
Instead of racing to the fucking bottom with this “but America does X shit” stay on topic and demand Gucci do better.
If there’s a post about America’s prisons and some wanker mentions how Gucci uses forced labor in China, would you not think that is some weird whataboutism???
I mean, I agree, but this article is focused on Europe, so I think your criticism is slightly misguided too. I think Europeans would be shocked to know about that system in the US too
My point is that this article does not mention the US at all, it's about the EU and China. I agree that Fortune should be writing articles about slave labour in the US. I don't think it's necessary for this article
Right, but there's a difference between paying murderers 6c an hour to make helmets vs uyghur death camps. Believe it or not, one is a lot worse than the other.
You would expect pictures or eyewitnesses after so many years of atrocities against Uyghurs. Also amazing there are Uyghurs left and certainly not expecting the population is growing much more than the Han majority.
No its not - Slavery should not be a feature of any constitution in the 21st century are you retarded mate?
Would you want your family to be slave labourers ?
As for the uyghur ask yourself why cia failed to stage a colour revolution in China (https://libertarianinstitute.org/articles/cia-further-discredits-uyghur-genocide-by-admitting-covert-influence-campaign/ )
I don't think millions of iPhones were made in death camps. I think the DoJ investigation described the Uyghurs making US iPhone parts as 'forced labour'.
Yeah, tell that to the uighurs, tell that to those folks in Hong Kong, tell that to anyone who talks shit on the CCP. They just straight murder you, no incarceration needed. I dont really care if you dont believe me cause you're a Xi shill. The US government is bad, sure, but the Chinese government has the consolidated power to corruptly remove dissidents and dissappear them, and there is nothing the locals can do about it.
I got a buddy in China who teaches English, and he talks about everyone knowing at least 1 person who has been disappeared. Obv they dont talk about it for fear of also being disappeared.
Why are you defending American slave labor though? Just because China has terrible working conditions doesn't mean it's okay for America to do the same.
Reddit in 2026 still allowing racism towards Asians and China to be cool. Never get rid of the white supremacy reddit.
/s.
Weird how reddit is casually or blatantly racist towards China. Doesn't factor in western white supremacy and imperialism. Say anything positive about Chinas economic developments and the MAGA bots comes at you
bruh at least divide the news agencies, at this point we have same agencies writing china is jut copy cat and cant innovate and simultaneously catching up and going to take over the world somehow.
I guess people have forgotten how to do limited international trade? EEC (European Economic Community) and EC (European Community) used to be masters at this. Combination of tariffs and import quotas allowed foreign goods to enter, but not the extent of hollowing out indigenous industries.
I guess American free trade champions trained them well. Trade is not a binary choice between an iron curtain or free trade.
Amen to that. I cannot believe how many devices I use are now chinese brands. NOT just made in china. Proper chinese brands with customer service to die for and product western countries can never imagine making. More power to China. As an Indian it makes me sad that we lost the bus to China for now, but as a neighbor, what a marvellous thing to witness in the neighborhood.
As a fellow Indian born in Gujarat I wish India would turn itself into a massive manufacturing hub for the whole world focused on recycling centers for everything from plastics to recycling and manufacturing for renewables. It would take a few decades of real work but we could get off oil and really create a mindset amongst Indian people to clean up our country and keep it clean all while making money and giving jobs.
India needs to build infrastructure. You can't be a manufacturing hub if the rails are connected, roads aren't paved, and docks that can't manage volumes.
In 2025, ndia exported $56b of pretoleum products and received in $151b remitences from Indians working abroad. Many of those who have been remitting money have been/will be returning and many will be engineers. Will those returning take the lead in changing in "mindset" that tolerates bribes? (And rapes?) Or will more movements like Cockroach spring up?
I care.. it literally puts their statement in context as you know, India and China are very similar countries in terms of size and population plus starting points but have ended up in very different places.
Europe got rich off of slavery and white imperialism and white supremacy. If china growing means less slaves for the EU , then that is decolonization. To want better for your people who have been enslaved is normal
Edit: funny how there is so much anti-China hate. Say anything truthful of China or western imperialism or western slavery on the world, bam, immediately down voted by white supremacists. Reddit never changes
Because acknowledging theyre surpassing us would require acknowledging what we believed wasnt accurate and was wrong. We all know theres at least 30% of the population that is incapable of that.
Probably more. In universities, acknowledge white supremacy, western imperialism, global slavery, and western colonialism, is such an important framework to use when discussing economics. But I guess if the EU and the US rely on slavery till this dat of Asia and tge global south, despite that being an important piece, the MAGA bots would rather pretend that it doesnt matter.
As for passing, there isn't anything wrong with that. It's a net good for the world and even the EU if they worked with China. It's actually a net positive for the world. But if it wasnt China, it would just be a different country white supremacists would hate, like Japan or Korea. Last thing white reddit wants is a strong Africa.
Pretty sure everyone wants a strong Africa so that they stop being receivers of aid and engaging in constant civil wars and instead become customers for our goods and services.
At least five years ago, I witnessed many insightful comments here, which pointed out the necessity of strengthening the military and industrial strategic planning in Europe.
However, five years have passed, and what I have witnessed is still a stagnant or even regressive reality.
One could interpret those harsh criticisms as propaganda from China, but this would only make the reality seem even more tragic.
Europe will be fine cause automation is coming soon, and they’ll integrate it into their welfare system instead of letting corporations take the reign, so they’ll tons of small businesses saving money by hiring less workers, and th welfare state to cover for them, way better than the American solution
joebraga2 | 7 hours ago
China’s advantage is no longer just cheap labour. It now combines very deep supplier networks, enormous scale, increasingly strong engineering capabilities, faster product development and, in several industries, world-class manufacturing. But labour costs and working conditions still matter. Chinese manufacturing wages remain far below Western European levels, average working hours are substantially longer, and enforcement of labour protections is generally weaker. The infamous “996” schedule is legally prohibited, but long-hours culture has not disappeared from parts of the private sector. So the cost advantage is really a combination of high industrial capability plus a much lower labour-cost base. That is what makes the challenge difficult for Europe. Twenty or thirty years ago, European firms could often justify higher wages through a large productivity and technology advantage. China has narrowed that gap dramatically in batteries, EVs, electronics, machinery and some other manufacturing sectors while retaining much lower labour costs. Europe probably cannot respond simply by cutting wages or weakening labour protections. The economically sustainable response would have to come from higher productivity, automation, cheaper energy, better capital investment and faster innovation. Otherwise European industry is being asked to compete against manufacturers that increasingly approach European technological capability while operating with a substantially cheaper cost structure.
swoonz101 | 5 hours ago
To add to your point, china has had the scale to actually automate many parts of manufacturing through robotics. So even if labour was to get more expensive the overall cost of manufacturing might not increase much
azerty543 | 3 hours ago
Europe could also just put up trade barriers with China. The combined U.S and European consumer base is massive on its own without the chinese consumer base.
joebraga2 | 3 hours ago
What I mean is that the automotive industry is already becoming far too integrated for “Europe should simply block Chinese cars” — or for the United States to do the same — to be a complete industrial strategy.
Ford is a good example. It did not disappear from Europe, but it ended vehicle production at Saarlouis in Germany after decades of manufacturing there. At the same time, Ford is restructuring around Valencia and has agreed to create a manufacturing joint venture with Geely in Spain. So even Ford’s attempt to remain competitive in Europe increasingly involves cooperation with a Chinese manufacturer.
Brazil is moving in the same direction, perhaps even faster. Geely acquired 26.4% of Renault do Brasil and gained access to Renault’s industrial structure in Paraná. Geely vehicles are being localized there, while Renault has confirmed that future Brazilian products will also use Geely architecture. Stellantis is doing something similar with Leapmotor: instead of Leapmotor building an entirely separate factory, the B10 and C10 are being localized inside Stellantis’ existing Brazilian manufacturing network.
And this is not limited to those two companies. GM has worked with SAIC for decades, Volkswagen has its long relationship with SAIC and is now working with XPeng, Renault is integrating with Geely, Stellantis owns part of Leapmotor, and Ford is now partnering with Geely in Europe.
So what exactly is a “Chinese car” anymore?
Is a Geely manufactured in a Renault plant in Brazil simply a Chinese car? Is a Leapmotor assembled by Stellantis? What about a Ford manufactured through a Ford-Geely joint venture in Spain?
That is why I think the real industrial question is increasingly about who owns the platform, who controls the software, batteries and power electronics, where the engineering is done, where the supply chain is located and where the value added remains — not simply the nationality of the badge on the bonnet.
The United States makes this contradiction even more visible. Chinese EVs are already sold just across the border in Mexico. People in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California can see Mexican-registered BYDs, Geelys and other Chinese vehicles on American roads, even though those same models generally cannot be bought and permanently registered by an American consumer.
So this is not simply a case of “Americans do not want Chinese EVs”. There is an explicit trade, industrial and national-security policy keeping most of them outside the American market.
Meanwhile, American manufacturers are trying to electrify a market that has spent decades moving toward large SUVs and pickup trucks. Chevrolet now has products such as the Bolt, Equinox EV, Blazer EV and Silverado EV, but the U.S. product mix remains much larger and more expensive than the compact EV market developing in China, Mexico, Europe and parts of Latin America.
Ford illustrates the difficulty as well. The current F-150 Lightning strategy has been reworked, while the American market remains heavily dependent on trucks. Even the “smaller” pickup segment contains vehicles such as the Ranger, Tacoma and Colorado, with the Maverick below them, while full-size F-150s, Silverados and Rams remain enormously important.
That creates a structural problem. Western manufacturers spent decades optimizing their profits around large, high-margin combustion vehicles. Chinese manufacturers, meanwhile, built enormous scale in batteries, compact EVs, power electronics, software and increasingly sophisticated manufacturing.
Tariffs can absolutely have legitimate purposes. They can preserve employment, strategic capacity, bargaining power and national-security interests. They can also prevent a domestic industry from being overwhelmed before it has time to adapt.
But tariffs only buy time.
They do not automatically make European or American manufacturers more productive. They do not reduce battery costs, improve software, shorten development cycles or create competitive small EVs.
And that is why I see some of the current response as technological protectionism: trying to preserve the old competitive structure after the technology and the supply chain have already changed.
Europe cannot sustainably compete by reducing wages and labour protections to Chinese levels. The United States cannot solve the problem simply by keeping Chinese EVs outside its borders while continuing to rely on an expensive, large-vehicle product mix.
The sustainable response has to be higher productivity, automation, cheaper energy, faster engineering cycles, competitive batteries, better software and manufacturing scale.
Otherwise the irony becomes obvious: governments may keep Chinese-branded cars outside the market while their own manufacturers increasingly integrate Chinese platforms, technology, capital and industrial partners into the vehicles they build.
Protection can delay competition. It cannot make the underlying competitiveness problem disappear.
Mistery_White_boy | 3 hours ago
Tutto giusto il tuo discorso... Con la Cina in certe cose non competi, secondo me ha senso farli entrare fargli fare le macchine nei nostri stabilimenti con manodopera italo-cinese... almeno noi torniamo a comprare una macchina a un prezzo onesto, no perché per comprare una macchina che fino a 10 anni fa pagavi 15000 euro adesso la paghi 25000, tra guerre, dazi e questo e quell'altro. Secondo me sarebbe meglio così per tutti...
joebraga2 | 3 hours ago
Sì, è esattamente questo il punto che stavo cercando di fare.
Se in alcuni segmenti l’Europa non riesce più a competere direttamente con i produttori cinesi, la risposta non deve necessariamente essere “chiudiamo il mercato”. Un’alternativa è farli produrre qui, dentro l’UE, con stabilimenti europei, lavoratori europei, fornitori locali e regole europee.
In questo modo il consumatore può avere più concorrenza e prezzi più bassi, mentre almeno una parte del valore aggiunto — produzione, occupazione, logistica, componentistica e tasse — rimane in Europa.
Per me la vera questione è questa: dove viene prodotto il valore e chi controlla la tecnologia, non semplicemente quale bandiera c’è sul cofano.
Naturalmente bisogna evitare di sostituire una dipendenza con un’altra. Se l’Europa si limita ad assemblare automobili progettate interamente altrove, mantenendo fuori dall’UE batterie, software, elettronica e ricerca, il problema industriale rimane.
Ma tra questo e semplicemente mettere dazi sempre più alti per mantenere artificialmente in vita prodotti che costano 25.000 euro quando dieci anni fa un’auto equivalente ne costava 15.000, preferisco una strategia di produzione locale, concorrenza e integrazione industriale.
È anche per questo che penso che le joint venture possano essere molto più interessanti del semplice protezionismo: permettono all’Europa di mantenere fabbriche e competenze mentre costringono i produttori tradizionali a diventare più competitivi.
flashbang88 | 14 minutes ago
AI slop comment
more_magic_mike | 3 hours ago
Don’t forget not having 40 paid days off work too
joebraga2 | 3 hours ago
Brazil is actually a useful example of why tariffs can slow competition without necessarily eliminating the underlying demand. Brazil gradually restored import duties on electrified vehicles and, since July 2026, fully built imported EVs and hybrids face a 35% import tariff. The Brazilian automakers’ association, representing the established manufacturers, actively pushed for the tariff schedule to be maintained and accelerated. Yet Chinese cars have continued to grow very quickly. In the first half of 2026, registrations of Chinese-made vehicles almost doubled compared with the previous year, and China accounted for roughly half of all imported vehicles. Chinese brands now account for a significant share of the Brazilian market despite most of their recent growth having initially come through imports. That is important because Brazilian consumers are paying not only the normal cost of the vehicle but also a substantial tariff, and the products are still competitive enough to gain market share. The response from Chinese manufacturers has also not simply been to give up on Brazil. It has been to localize production: BYD is producing in Bahia, Geely is integrating with Renault’s plant in Paraná, and Leapmotor is being localized through Stellantis. So the tariff may actually accelerate the next stage of the process: instead of Chinese companies merely exporting cars, they invest locally or partner with incumbent manufacturers. This is why I do not think “just put up trade barriers” solves the competitiveness issue. It can change where the vehicle is assembled and give domestic industry time to adapt, but it does not automatically make an incumbent manufacturer’s product more attractive. Brazil is already showing that consumers can continue moving toward Chinese-designed vehicles even behind a substantial tariff wall. If the price, technology and equipment remain competitive after a 35% import duty, then the underlying issue is clearly larger than the absence of protection. Protection can buy domestic manufacturers time. What they do with that time is the important part.
Either-Patience1182 | 7 hours ago
The trade protections were there so that europe could have time to adapt and increase the quality of the cars and cheapen supply and manufacturing designs.
The systems are free trade based so buffers were always gonna be temporary. A small tariff will not protect your companies if the competition is a much better choice
Mistery_White_boy | 3 hours ago
Con la Cina non hai scampo ormai...li accetti e bona, bisogna anche saper perdere c'è poco da stare lì ...nella storia l'Europa è stata dominante nei secoli, adesso no ...cosa puoi fare? Capire come fanno e copiare come hanno fatto loro con noi ...
picardo85 | 2 hours ago
Copy what they do?
Colonize Africa again?
Minimum_Rice555 | 8 hours ago
My head is spinning with all the chinese psy-op and thought nudging, European subreddits are in a really bad state. Anything pro-Europe is immediately downvoted and top comments are often "Europe relies on China for X without alternatives".
And watch this being downvoted too
Keeltoodeep | 8 hours ago
Europe is in a very tough spot economically. Welfare states require economic growth and a healthy demographic distribution. I love Europe but the Draghi report was right. Europe needs to become more competitive.
LessInThought | 7 hours ago
Hard to compete with low wages and 9am to 9pm 6 days a week. Unless you want to forfeit the human rights that makes Europe Europe. As for automation and robotics... Well China has it too.
why_i_bother | 7 hours ago
Europe doesn't need to become more competitive.
Europe needs to stop oligarchs from privatizing wealth.
Focus on real industries rather than service industry would be nice too, service industry is the subsistance farming of 20th/21st century.
aggieboy12 | 7 hours ago
Europe’s tech sector is at least eight years behind the U.S. and China. That won’t be fixed by taxing billionaires more, and it is a severe vulnerability that will absolutely mean the difference between victory and defeat in any conflict.
Europe is absolutely behind, but it lacks any sort of real leadership or resolve to incur short term pain for long term growth.
why_i_bother | 6 hours ago
What's the "8 years behind" actual meaning? Like what actual metric are we talking about?
That it isn't currently full of fascist techbros?
> Europe is absolutely behind, but it lacks any sort of real leadership or resolve to incur short term pain for long term growth.
Behind in what exactly?
I do agree that it has problems in leadership, mostly because it still refuses to federalize, or reign in oligarchs and corporations that chase next quarter while sabotaging long term (prime example being EU car companies sabotaging electrocars the last 10 years, to squeeze little more value from ignition engines, which threw away the EU lead in el.cars)
_Gobulcoque | 6 hours ago
> What's the "8 years behind" actual meaning? Like what actual metric are we talking about? > > > > That it isn't currently full of fascist techbros? > > > > Europe is absolutely behind, but it lacks any sort of real leadership or resolve to incur short term pain for long term growth. > > > > Behind in what exactly?
Great points.
aggieboy12 | 31 minutes ago
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/europe/europe-cant-get-out-its-own-way-andrew-mcAfee
This article goes pretty in depth as to the ways that European technology and productivity is lagging behind the world’s leaders. Whereas in the early 2000’s it was at about 95% the productivity level the U.S., it now lags by about 20%.
While there are still valid questions about the long term sustainability and efficacy of AI, denying the importance of the tech such as its impact on defense and overall economic productive capacity is really no different than just sticking your head into the sand. Europe lacks the tech needed to adequately defend itself, and it has steadily ceded market power (key for retaining soft power across the globe) to the U.S. and China. These factors only continue to compound as greater percentages of spending are going to the welfare state, while countries across the continent fail to innovate and invest in their economic futures.
why_i_bother | 6 hours ago
Well, what is it behind in then? I wasn't making a point I was asking for clarification of their point, because I don't see the Europe "behind behind behind" meme being real.
TheDuhhh | an hour ago
Look at AI. Look at software. You are probably using an iPhone using facebook apps for social media, using google for search, using chatgpt for ai, etc.
Look at the US big tech. Europe has no equivalent, not even much worse ones.
why_i_bother | an hour ago
> Look at AI.
midwit smoke and mirrors
>Look at software.
what software? are we talking the genius technical innovation of asking for monthly payments instead of selling complete product?
> You are probably using an iPhone using facebook apps for social media, using google for search, using chatgpt for ai, etc.
selling a product says pretty much nothing about its quality, it says more about your market power
which I do admit, US techbros are really good at enshittifying and walling off everything that had public created infrastructure.
prime targets for taxing and regulating, especially considering all their crimes and being fascist shitstains.
_Gobulcoque | 6 hours ago
> I don't see the Europe "behind behind behind" meme being real.
Neither do I. I agree with you.
I'll also add - I don't think it should be economic growth at all costs.
why_i_bother | 6 hours ago
Oh, ok.
Yes, definitely not when the "economic growth" is 99% just a financial capital growth, and barely any actual production, infrastructure, investment.
Masking stagnation or even decay by fake numbers going is gonna bite everyone in the ass once the bubble bursts.
random-meme422 | 5 hours ago
yeah if you just tax and regulate more it’ll surely be paradise
why_i_bother | 4 hours ago
Actually, yes, the main economic growth came during after war period of tight regulations and and high taxes for rich.
It was the 70s and 80s neoliberalism that started the downfall.
random-meme422 | 3 hours ago
Wait there was large growth after a war that destroyed everything which cleared the way for growth?????????
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat ain’t no way.
why_i_bother | an hour ago
Yeah, for example america was so destroyed that it became global hegemon, thanks to that
open a book, fucks sake.
random-meme422 | 47 minutes ago
wait america experienced massive growth being one of the few untouched countries and being able to sell to everyone????????????? whaaaaaaaat?????
EU brain is massive
why_i_bother | 18 minutes ago
throwing pearls before swine
DarkExecutor | 7 hours ago
Europe economically is going down the drain and the only you can think of is increasing taxes lol
why_i_bother | 7 hours ago
Everywhere goes to shit where you stop taxing oligarchs, and start taxing workforce.
You're supposed to do it the other way around.
Metafx | 7 hours ago
This is nonsense. Talk about “oligarchs” is a complete distraction, they do not have the kind of continent-wide economic impact that this article is contemplating. Europe either needs to seriously reevaluate its policies that have allowed it to economically stagnate or enforce much more comprehensive protectionist measures to cut out cheap Chinese alternatives.
why_i_bother | 6 hours ago
Oligarchs moved industries abroad (for cheap labor), and stopped paying taxes. This destroyed industries in Europe, while allowing oligarchs to own Europe.
Metafx | 5 hours ago
“Oligarchs” do not constitute the entire industrial base of Europe, not even close. They represent a centralization of economic power but not the entire basis of it. Any explanation that focuses on them is missing the forest for the trees.
why_i_bother | 4 hours ago
Sure it does.
Just because Western Europe likes to act that their rich aren't the movers doesn't make it true.
NOLA-Bronco | 6 hours ago
“Guys, capitalists have no power in a capitalist system, I am very smart!”
Metafx | 5 hours ago
Pretending that oligarchs have all the economic power rather than just an outsized portion compare to their number is missing the forest for the trees.
NOLA-Bronco | 2 hours ago
All, no, special interest groups have a lot of power as well. Though that also ultimately comes back to capital.
Regardless of the level of influence, we both acknowledge it is a large outsized one, which is weird to then turn around and say ignore it.
A nations mode of production is the single most important factor in influencing every major decision. And when that is dominated by the owners of capital that absolutely matters
Far_Mathematici | 5 hours ago
Remember the reason European (esp the rich one) can have <=40 hr / week work hours with generous benefit and leave is that their parents and grandparents worked hard so companies like VW/Stellantis can extract huge Value Added from their products due to brand, patents, process etc. Once the later is gone then everything gone including your benefit
epelle9 | 4 hours ago
Competing with the US should be enough, but yeah it’s hard to compete when people only really work 10-2, and when firing people is almost illegal.
Love Europe for it’s work life balance, great quality of life, but it’s honestly not sustainable.
Bodoblock | 2 hours ago
If other people are working harder than you, you either work as hard as they are or work smarter. Europe seems to do neither. Which is why their companies kinda suck.
Keeltoodeep | 7 hours ago
Something has to give. Europe is going to have to cut social welfare spending if they don’t become more economically competitive but every time France tries to reform welfare, protestors burn down Paris lol
Aceous | 4 hours ago
European workers are more productive than their Chinese counterparts. You don't need to work 9am to 9pm, you need lower taxes so people can actually invest in production.
krayonkid | 2 hours ago
When have Europeans been knowing for being productive? My perception has always been great work life balance and amazing time off.
Aceous | 12 minutes ago
That's not what the definition of productivity is in economics. European workers are more productive because Europe has more capital accumulation -- i.e., more and better technology -- per worker and a more educated workforce that can make effective use of that capital.
The proof is in the pudding. The EU's GDP per hour worked is 70 USD, while China's is 30 USD. And that's adjusted for PPP. The nominal numbers are way more skewed toward Europe.
The danger Europe faces is that their labor production has stagnated for well over a decade. It has grown by a meager 2-3% while China's has grown over 200% in the same 2 decades. Obviously, as an advanced economy, it shouldn't be expected to grow as fast as a developing one, but 3% is woeful. By comparison, here in the US, labor productivity has grown by 50% in the same period.
Taxes are stifling Europe.
rhymeswithgumbox | 7 hours ago
Don't forget the cancer clusters around manufacturers. It's the same rich as here- a few people and fucks everyone else.
TerminalJammer | 3 hours ago
Let's try what we've tried since 2008 - invest nothing and gut infrastructure and social investments and social welfare. That'll help, that's not the opposite what China is doing.
LoneWolf_McQuade | an hour ago
Short term capitalism thinking caused the European and Western companies to outsource production and know-how to China. It was such a stupid move strategically. Good for China I guess.
Keeltoodeep | an hour ago
Europe is absolutely not hyper capitalist.
LoneWolf_McQuade | an hour ago
The European companies on the stock market pretty much are
accidental73 | 19 minutes ago
Europe is a social democracy system while China is a hyper capitalist system. Social democracy will have a very hard time competing against the hyper capitalist country.
tacodestroyer99 | 8 hours ago
People in this sub and every other main sub sat there and watched it happen. There used to actually be thoughtful discussion here about economics and now it's just Temu TikTok.
amendment64 | 7 hours ago
Oh yeah, reddit is shit for actual nuanced discussion these days. Honestly, has been for at least 5 years, probably more. Bots and bad faith posters(actual bot farms) killed it
gimpwiz | 19 minutes ago
It wasn't great 15 years ago either but at least people tried a but harder back then.
fourunderthebridge | 7 hours ago
Yeah try telling a Volkswagen employee that all of that is just Chinese psy op.
You'll probably get decked. Seriously, if you don't know how rough things are for German conglomerates right now don't try to make light of things. It's insulting.
Minimum_Rice555 | 6 hours ago
To be frank, this came down very fast by automotive/manufacturing standards. I was involved in the chinese car industry from a supplier point of view, about 9-10 years ago. They produced complete garbage back then, 1 star NCAP, unsafe, unreliable garbage, with russian sourced 1.5L outdated petrol engines. I had insight into the chinese cutting edge of automotive and nobody even saw this in chinese factories back then. They made a 5 year plan sometime after and decided they focus and dominate the industry whatever the cost.
I do believe after EU competitors are eliminated, chinese cars wont cost 15-20k anymore, but they will be sold for exactly the same as vw or legacy car prices.
threeinacorner | 6 hours ago
Not going to take sides here, but
>I do believe after EU competitors are eliminated, chinese cars wont cost 15-20k anymore, but they will be sold for exactly the same as vw or legacy car prices
I am in the EV industry and this is a very wrong belief, unfortunately. The Chinese cars sold in the EU, and to a lesser extent here in Australia, have insane margins compared to back in China. So much so that they are using them to rake in the money needed to fuel their price wars back in China.
So no, they're not going to raise the prices. They were actually thinking of going lower, as in getting into another price war, but in Western markets. Just because they had so much room to play with. The CCP is currently trying to stop it.
MobiusLoopd | 5 hours ago
I find it funny that people assume China is just one large supplier rather than a horde of large companies engaging in cut throat competition with each other all day long. Maybe we've just grown accustomed to the cartel like anti-competitive behaviour that has become the norm in the west and assume that's just the way things should be.
00raiser01 | 6 hours ago
I doubt it, they can't even get their food delivery prices up due to internal competition. The same will be for their car industry. China internal competition is higher compared to external competition from the rest of the world.
astuteobservor | 6 hours ago
Pure bull. They knew they were gonna take a long time to catch up with ice cars. So they concentrated on battery tech like 20 years ago. At the time America and south Korea were the leaders in n battery tech. They had like 3 branches forward. The battery branch beat the other 2. Now their ice and hybrid tech also caught up. It isn't just the engine, Chinese car interiors are top tier too.
tallham_ | 5 hours ago
You are probably too young to really remember but 9 years ago I was in Shenzhen when they changed all the buses and taxis of the whole city to EVs. Like thousands and thousands. All this started as a project in earlies 2000s to develop EVs and make all the technology require for them. It has been very open and public what the CCP has been doing along with the tech companies. The west just chose to underestimate them and got it wrong.
sicklyslick | 5 hours ago
>I do believe after EU competitors are eliminated, chinese cars wont cost 15-20k anymore, but they will be sold for exactly the same as vw or legacy car prices.
People like to say this but this has never happened with a product in which China has a monopoly in.
Electronics, TV, solar panels, EVs, shipbuilding, winds turbines, microwaves, cables, etc
All of these are dominated by China, yet all of them have been coming down in price year after year.
China makes like 95%+ of Ethernet cables in the world. If they want to double the price tomorrow, there's no alternative (at least for 1-2 years until a factory can be spun up in Vietnam or India).
Rare earth is used as a retaliatory measure, rather than offense.
Smartphones and computers are going up in price due to chips inside NOT made in China, but rather in SK, tw, US, etc.
All this fear mongering that you have is not backed by data. Just because Western capitalist fucked you, doesn't mean China will.
Big-Profit-1612 | 5 hours ago
Yep I was in China last 2019. God, their cars then were dogshit. It's mind blowing to me to read their cars are pretty decent.
Murky_Rush_735 | 8 hours ago
Europe: 5% of the worlds population, 20% of its GDP but 50% of its welfare spending. That says it all.
polytique | 6 hours ago
This welfare number is very wrong. Using 2024 numbers, the US spent $5.8T in social protection benefits while the EU spent $5.3T.
flatfisher | 6 hours ago
Yes, that the rest of the world still has a long way to catch up with Europe. Don’t forget that the point of GDP and the economy is to improve people’s life, not the other way around.
Bodoblock | 2 hours ago
At the pace things are going, maybe China will give plundering Europe a go then and let Europe pay back historical debts with interest lol. They'll catch up then.
bladex1234 | 7 hours ago
No? Not when one of the largest economies in the US does fuck all for social welfare. Raw dollar amounts would be a better comparison.
fumar | 7 hours ago
The US has plenty of social welfare programs. It's just not close to Europe or Canada.
polytique | 6 hours ago
Using World Bank and OECD numbers for 2022:
|Dimension | EU-27|United States| |:-|:-|:-| |Nominal GDP|$17.02T|$26.05T| |Public social spending|25–26% GDP|19.0% GDP| |Public social spending in $|$4.3–4.4T|$4.95T| |Population|447M|333M| |Per person|$9,600–9,900|$14,900|
Willinton06 | 7 hours ago
Then it’s not plenty
doubagilga | 4 hours ago
The US spends 50% more per capita total. It spends like 5% less of its GDP, which is much larger per capita.
Welfare life anywhere is not that nice.
more_magic_mike | 3 hours ago
Percentage matter way more
If companies are charging so they can pay for so many holidays, high taxes that get given out to people instead of invested in common infrastructure, then no way they can be competitive
For a long time rich Chinese were supporting the European luxury goods companies but being married to a Chinese person has taught me two things
Chinese people are not stupid and know low quality, they won’t pay for brand names for long, and also Chinese people can and will boycott a company over anything. People may laugh when they see people ripping up clothes because they refuse to use xinjiang cotton, after all they paid for the clothes, but that company is done forever in China (Nike for example)
why_i_bother | 7 hours ago
Yeah, based as fuck, now just needs to clip its oligarchs wings.
HugeBlueberry | 7 hours ago
Ok, and? Isn’t that the point of a state? We pay taxes to get taken care of?
hlrabbit | 6 hours ago
Your comment is one of the most upvoted and got multiple rewards. Playing victim is always so f cringe.
MoistDeep | 8 hours ago
100%. Bots and paid actors are in full swing. But we should still see that China is encroaching on Europe's manufacturing
j48u | 7 hours ago
The bots are from China trying to tell you China is good.
artbystorms | 5 hours ago
It's not just Europe. Reddit is chock full of pro-china bots pushing the same narrative in American centric subs too.
I'll give China their due that they do infrastructure buildouts better than many European countries and MUCH better than America, but that is the benefit of a centrally planned government system.
I still think it is going to be a long while before the West associates China with luxury or high quality, and not just cheapness and stolen copyright.
New-Border8172 | an hour ago
Only took 2~3 decades for Japan and Korea.
Minimum_Rice555 | 4 hours ago
I honestly think China has kind of lucked out and was "at the right place at the right time". China and India had the same GDP in 1990. Central planning did nothing for cuba and NK.
alwayz | 8 hours ago
Been this way for a while now, at least since tencent bought a share. The Russians showed the world how to do it, but I think the Chinese are way better at it.
NiglyTheBimbo | 7 hours ago
Same with Japannews.
The anti immigration bs that Takaichi passes should be criticized, but the sub should not be a constant stream of Japan bad. Even a lot of the headlines are translated in bad faith.
Minimum_Rice555 | 6 hours ago
This seems to apply for most of the planet. Social media is very polarized almost everywhere where there is freedom of expression.
bacharama | 7 hours ago
Ever since the spat between Takaichi and China started over Taiwan late last year, I feel like reddit as a whole has gotten a lot more anti-Japan. I see way more people complaining about Japan glazing than I do actual Japan glazing, not to mention reddit suddenly being obsessed with WWII war crimes that they never cared about a year ago.
Ill-Sale-9364 | 6 hours ago
There are lot of chinese bots on reddit
mutqkqkku | 6 hours ago
every bit of news about japan is a circlejerk over "did you guys know they did warcrimes? i went there and they don't self-flagellate enough!", it's kind of wild.
sicklyslick | 5 hours ago
And every bit of news about China is "Tiananmen square massacre". Circle jerk applies to everyone lol.
Complete-Refuse-3262 | 8 hours ago
Maybe its time for you to go outside and touch some grass
Maybe just maybe…
DotRakianSteel | 8 hours ago
Same applies for anti racist or pro-women post or comments. I think the algorithms already figured out we do not need to be united in anyway..
mAtoOo_ | 7 hours ago
Yup what you predicted happened.
Jamsster | 6 hours ago
It’s been the US for quite a bit too. The internet is a giant disinformation campaign at times
Good_Air_7192 | 2 hours ago
I have been seeing so many "[insert European country] can't compete with China in [insert industry] so they really should just abandon it." comments recently, either they are bots or idiots.
Lespecialpackage | an hour ago
They are too busy focusing on the USA 😂
JubalKhan | 6 hours ago
Competition framed as "coming for your industries!" is a weak attempt at fear mongering.
Fact is, at this point EU can't compete with China in industry, that's it.
Energy is too expensive, population too old, too much money is required for pensions and other things while tax income is too low in spite of high taxes.
EU should focus it's efforts somewhere else, where these advantages that China now possesses don't hold significant edge over the competition.
Savings_Bed6172 | 7 hours ago
Those $1000 Gucci sneakers and many of the so called luxury products were never worth what's being charged. They often use genetic materials and produced at low cost sites like other brands. But the "luxury" brands cap their production figures, sometimes destroy excess inventory, and over market their brands to bring up the price of their products. If people turn to the alternatives that are 10x cheaper, looks about the same, lasts about as long, and does the same thing, that's the "luxury" brand's fault for selling overpriced stuff.
PurpleRoman | 2 hours ago
>They often use genetic materials
I hope they're not using semen to make my gucci flip flops
laosurv3y | 8 hours ago
China has to go after everyone's industries. They want to be 100% self reliant, both for historical pride and to protect against pressure/attacks. But they don't want domestic consumption to grow meaningfully. So they have to export. And they're very efficient and have become very technically capable.
ImpossibleEbb6862 | 7 hours ago
It’s not that they don’t want domestic consumption to grow, but they do want to keep their exports high. To do that the government keeps the RMB low. The impact of that is high exports and low domestic consumption.
3_Thumbs_Up | 7 hours ago
The goal of keeping the RMB low is to prevent people's standard of living from growing too fast. They want people to keep working rather than using their newfound wealth to finance shorter work days and more vacation days.
laosurv3y | 7 hours ago
They 'want' it to grow. If you say something but take actions that achieve the opposite, which do you believe?
ImpossibleEbb6862 | 7 hours ago
I believe that increasing exports are a higher priority for the government. That’s different than saying it wants to keep domestic consumption down. Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. The real world forces you to make trade offs.
laosurv3y | 5 hours ago
Did I say they want to keep consumption down? And choosing a priority is the choice. It's like the bad boyfriend that says he wants to invest in the relationship but spends all his time practicing for marathons. Actions are more important.
impossiblefork | 7 hours ago
They will naturally go after everyone's industries because they're 1.4 billion people.
It has nothing to do with a desire not to have domestic consumption. China isn't even all that export driven. 20% of GDP. In Sweden it's >50%. In Germany it's 40%.
Historical pride is irrelevant too. Simply, because there are so many people they will make everything from chips, operating systems, cars to toothbrushes.
Void-Indigo | 7 hours ago
China has a population problem. Many people growing old with few young people to replace them. The one child policy has created unintended consequences.
impossiblefork | 7 hours ago
Yes, but the same is true of the other developed countries.
It's not like they're going to be <1b, and the US + EU ~= 800 million. In the end it depends on the quality of the schools. If they can maintain that, any industrial activity that happens in the US or EU is going to have a counterpart in China.
What with LLMs I think lockin is going to be really hard, so the future is something hypercompetitive-- software, computers, chips, even exceedingly advanced goods that previously could command huge premiums having tiny margins because even the fanciest stuff has a counterpart on the other side.
Void-Indigo | 5 hours ago
True. But also consider the imbalance between male and female offspring is greater in China due to the preference in sons over daughters. This will cause problems as the population ages rapidly.
impossiblefork | 5 hours ago
Maybe, but it could also be solve itself. There will be more people who were happy with female offspring among grandparents at least.
Scope_Dog | 3 hours ago
That’s probably why they have so many robot companies.
reflect25 | 5 hours ago
> It has nothing to do with a desire not to have domestic consumption. China isn't even all that export driven. 20% of GDP. In Sweden it's >50%. In Germany it's 40%.
you are comparing two misleading statistics. a lot of the 'export' is just going to countries within the EU.
if you check like the stats then germany's exports are Intra-EU Share: Roughly 56% and Extra-EU Share: Roughly 44%.
Aka germany exports to other EU countries are like ~18% of gdp while to countries outside EU is also around ~22% of gdp. its not that different from china
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Intra-EU_trade_in_goods_-_main_features
kiranhi | 7 hours ago
“They don’t want domestic consumption to grow” lmao god Americans are so fucking stupid
They have actively been trying to boost consumption for years . They are struggling to do it. Please inform yourself before opening your primitive American mouth.
laosurv3y | 7 hours ago
Ah, you're a primitive brain that believes words over actions. The Party's policies do not emphasize domestic consumption growth.
kiranhi | 7 hours ago
So the loan subsidies , demand fund , pension reforms all of it is not an attempt to boost consumption? You literally don’t know anything. Go back to playing DraftKings you western ape
laosurv3y | 5 hours ago
So your claim is they're incompetent rather than it's not a priority relative to building up industry?
kiranhi | 5 hours ago
What on earth are you talking about? Incompetence? They are trying multiple levers to boost consumption but it is not working due to numerous structural headwinds , property market deflation, internal price competition etc.
They have multiple times emphasized how involution is a problem and they are trying to slow down the industrial subsidies because it’s putting downward price pressure and lowering consumption.
I’m telling you, you don’t know anything about this topic so please just go read something before posting online things like “they don’t want to do it cause they want to dominate every industry”
Simple minded westerner.
laosurv3y | 5 hours ago
It's not working = incompetence. You only seem to know one insult, you should work on that.
kiranhi | 5 hours ago
Lmao again, the fact you think that something as big as Chinas economy can just be solved by a few changes and that would show competence speaks volumes about how stupid you actually are.
These things are not easy, the US is trying to bring manufacturing back right? Is it not working due to incompetence? Or is it not working due to structural reasons like the current account balance of a US and its place as a reserve currency?
Again. You are extremely simple minded and you are the one who should not be in an economics sub
laosurv3y | 5 hours ago
I've never heard someone pretending the US Federal government is competent. Even the goal of 'bringing back manufacturing' is a bad one as the US manufactures more now than in the past, just with fewer workers.
But people do like to pretend the CCP is competent. Good to know they're on the same level as the US.
And you really need to research more insults. You're getting quite boring.
kiranhi | 5 hours ago
No one is competent especially not you lol
sicklyslick | 5 hours ago
Just because you're completely unaware of what they're going to instead domestic consumption doesn't mean they're not doing it
https://amp.scmp.com/economy/policy/article/3364851/china-unveils-targeted-measures-aid-slowing-economy-amid-louder-calls-policy-support
laosurv3y | 5 hours ago
Right, they're trying to accelerate weak policies relative to industrial support because they realized their actions over emphasizing industry have overwhelmed their actions to support consumption. The article you linked is fairly recent, time will tell if their actions change to back up their words.
grazfest96 | 9 hours ago
But instead of citing the cheap labor long associated with Chinese factories, the fashion house said it picked a Chinese manufacturer known for its “technological know-how” and ability to meet the brand’s quality standards.
Hahahahahaha
sultan_of_gin | 9 hours ago
China isn’t what it used to be. Sure there are lots of companies cutting corners there still, but they can absolutely make good quality too and today if you just want to make something as cheap as possible you’ll choose some other third world country
hopenoonefindsthis | 8 hours ago
In fact, there is a lot of things that cannot be made without China (without a ridiculous price tag).
Smarter Everyday did a whole series on this where they try to make something entirely in the US and they found it to be practically impossible.
The China = only cheap labour doesn’t exist any more.
Axerin | 8 hours ago
Mfs will use an iPhone pro max or whatever made in China to say shit like this lol. Even swiss watches have a bunch of components that are made in China.
People can't seem to wrap their head around the fact that a country manufacturing advanced tech can also compete in manufacturing silly little leather bags lmfao.
People complain about subsidies, lack of regulation and cheap labour, but regardless of how they got there, they now have a pretty well established manufacturing sector and the control over supply chains that you can't simply pretend like it doesn't exist.
amendment64 | 7 hours ago
Yeah, but what makes a phone work(the chips) are not made in china, so people dont consider phones Chinese made. Which is probably a good assumption tbh
IndieDevLove | 6 hours ago
Those are made by the "hip" chinese...
DarkExecutor | 7 hours ago
And you think China isn't pouring billions of dollars attempting to get semiconductor production going?
amendment64 | 7 hours ago
I know they are. But they're still way behind TSMC, Qualcomm, intel, micron, shit even Nvidia. The chips race has been going on for literally decades and decades and China remains a decade behind at least.
AbbreviationsMany728 | an hour ago
debatable, XRing 03 is a 3nm chip launched by xiaomi this year which has better performance than a20 pro, SD elite gen 6 and dimensity 9600 pro (all 2nm chips) so they are not decades behind in SoCs at the very least. GPUs yea but that they will reach by 2030 most likely or not, it dont matter much once AI bubble is burst.
DarkExecutor | 5 hours ago
Chips weren't that big a deal until AI blew up demand
Accidental-Genius | 5 hours ago
And where are most of those chips made? What’s the T in TSMC stand for?
AlpineDrifter | 5 hours ago
Taiwan. The place that’s currently not China.
MobiusLoopd | 5 hours ago
Official name for Taiwan is Republic of China FYI.
AlpineDrifter | 5 hours ago
Cool. That’s not the country on mainland Asia that everybody is talking about in this conversation.
ThatOneCynicalPerson | 9 hours ago
China industrial base has everything. You want cheaply made craps? They have a base over there, you want elite engineering quality? They also have it, but expect to pay EU/American price for it.
Eschatologists | 9 hours ago
Why would it have to be EU/american price? Despite strong wage growth a skilled technician's total comp is still substantially lower in China, they have technology, Volume, ecosystem and still relatively cheap salaries. Makes me wonder where the inneficiency is ?
assault_potato1 | 8 hours ago
their cost of living is lower.
ThatOneCynicalPerson | 8 hours ago
Because high quality stuffs is hard to make, and the skilled workers that make them command higher wage and the company that own the specialized industrial base also want to make money?
Illustrious_Painting | 8 hours ago
Often the demand for quality craftmanship/technicians far outstrips the supply for it in China, so the market allows them to charge higher prices.
Jon_ofAllTrades | 6 hours ago
Not even close to American prices, although starting to converge to EU prices for skilled labor.
Using software engineer salaries for example: if a US role paid $300k USD, the equivalent role in Western/Northern Europe would be $150k, and $100k in China.
DarkExecutor | 7 hours ago
BYD isn't EU/American price
Pakistani_in_MURICA | 7 hours ago
People wanting a $2,000 for an aerospace grade widget for $2. Then complaining it doesn’t meet the standards.
Logical_gravel_1882 | 8 hours ago
It seems like this is a normal progression in the post WWII era.
Country A industrialized with poor workers rights and cheap labor, undercutting other producers. Then transitions to competing with higher quality focus as the workers gain the technical expertise that makes that possible. Then someone else starts to industrialize and undercuts the low cost side of production, and country A centers entirely on higher tech production only possible with its now broadly skilled workforce.
Maybe there is a subsequent stage if countries dont get derailed in the progression by whatever flavor of crisis
MobiusLoopd | 8 hours ago
This is capitalism at work, if you can get a higher outputs while utilising the same or slightly higher inputs, you move on to higher output products that will net you higher profits.
Logical_gravel_1882 | 6 hours ago
People are downvoting me, but i wish they would explain where they disagree - im intellectually interested but just not a trained economist. Thanks for following on with real insight!
MobiusLoopd | 5 hours ago
I'll help you with an explanation, if you work the same number of hours, would you rather be making chopped firewood for 5 bucks a bunch or making timber beams for 500 dollars each?
You may not be able to make timber beams at the start due to your skill level but as you learn to wield you axe better, you can go on to make timber beams which make you more profit. Then you can then invest in a better axe and make timber beams better and quicker, netting you more money.
This is how countries work too, as they gain more skills with their labour base, they will want to move up to better products which require more skill and equipment to make but much more significant margins on the same amount of labour.
You can look at chopped firewood as goods like clothes and home appliances as wooden beams. This keeps going until you get to things like computer chips which then moves onto more IP centric things which no longer need much capital equipment and merely extremely highly skilled labour like semi conductor design, software development etc.
Latter-Yam-2115 | 9 hours ago
I hope you do know China leads the world in a bunch of tech industries, especially manufacturing
photon1701d | 8 hours ago
I ocassionally visit China for work. What I see there in their machine shops is far advanced compared to what I see in North America. Here, a company is happy to purchase a few cnc milling machines. There, I see rows of them and all cutting.
Loud_Cream_4306 | 8 hours ago
Sounds like you're the one out of touch with reality
carrotsticks2 | 9 hours ago
what's funny about this? China has plenty of intelligent people
thediesel26 | 9 hours ago
Who are really really good at copying things that have already been developed
photon1701d | 8 hours ago
If you keep thinking that way, you will never realize you are losing the race. They have taken technology to a different level. I work for one of the automakers. We are stripping down their cars to see how they are doing it. We are falling behind here.
JubalKhan | 7 hours ago
That's impossible!! My racist-supremacist ideology clearly shows how we are superior to those pesky Chinese who only know how to steal!! /s
photon1701d | 6 hours ago
They call them communist. I was dating a Chinese lady for awhile. She owned her house here, then she bought one house and rented it out. Few months later bought few dumps and had them fixed up and flipped it. She wanted me to go in with her and her sister on a strip mall but I was worried they were going to screw me. Regardless...sounds like capitalism to me.
thediesel26 | 5 hours ago
…but she did that in the US right?
MittenstheGlove | 8 hours ago
China is probably one of the most innovative countries at this point.
Huge-Group8652 | 8 hours ago
So would you call that a near-pear competitor?
00raiser01 | 6 hours ago
Hasn't been true for a long while. If you kept track most citations and publications of leading research are mostly Chinese names.
thediesel26 | 5 hours ago
Ha that’s very much quatity over quality
joshocar | 9 hours ago
This was true maybe 20 years ago, but not really anymore. As a small example, the cost for low volume PCB board manufacturing is incredibly cheap and fast in China and done at a high quality. This is because of the high end pick and place machines they invested in, not because of cheap manual labor. You can get a set of board, fully cut and populated in two weeks for an order of magnitude (or two) cheaper than in the US.
robustofilth | 9 hours ago
Your typing that comment on a device that could only be made in China 🙄
BadgersHoneyPot | 9 hours ago
Based on blueprints and manufacturing techniques taught to them by Apple.
MittenstheGlove | 8 hours ago
China literally makes superior phones. We just banned them.
L-F-O-D | 8 hours ago
I think the poster is indicating that Apple invested about 50 billion in Chinese manufacturing for decades but required producers to only sell it 25% of the gross product, probably a CCP informed decision, so yeah, China HAD to technologically advance, because they were contractually obliged to. Apple effectively caused their own future competitors, launched a massive push to technological supremacy, and in many ways was the first domino to where we are today.
JubalKhan | 7 hours ago
But hey, at least for a brief period we made shareholders profit more than usual.
ofcistilloveyou | 6 hours ago
But I bet the next quarter's share price went up!
Complete-Refuse-3262 | 8 hours ago
Usa stole patents from nazi Germany - same shit just a different day
BadgersHoneyPot | 5 hours ago
If we're on to "same shit different day," then I can fairly confidently say that the same thing that has held China back for the last 3,000 years will probably continue to hold it back in the future. There have been a number of fairly disastrous decisions (one child policy for example) which, among others, have hobbled China recently despite these advances at the margin.
robustofilth | 8 hours ago
Nope. That’s quite incorrect.
discoveryends | 8 hours ago
That fact can be changed
Surf_Solar | 9 hours ago
My Pixel wasn't made in China
robustofilth | 8 hours ago
Large parts of it were m’dear
Surf_Solar | 7 hours ago
Maybe, but in 2027 it seems China will be out for Pixels entirely
Physical100 | 7 hours ago
You have a Pixel made in 2027?
Surf_Solar | 7 hours ago
No ? Lots of Pixels are not made in China. The guy said (without sources) that "large" parts of it were to which I said maybe.
Physical100 | 6 hours ago
lol. What do you think “made in” means? Like do you know the difference between final assembly and fabricating parts
assault_potato1 | 8 hours ago
What, so it's 100% made in america or europe? Lol.
MobiusLoopd | 8 hours ago
There's obviously a massive factory in Mountain View making all those Pixel phones for the world.
/s
Surf_Solar | 7 hours ago
The world for americans : USA, Mexico, Canada, Europe and China
MobiusLoopd | 7 hours ago
Oh, you don't realise which country Mountain View is. My apologies.
Surf_Solar | 7 hours ago
It's in California, why would you think that...
I was just pointing the absurdity of the two comments. I say my phone is not "made in China" and you guys think that leaves only USA and Europe.
Surf_Solar | 7 hours ago
https://www.androidpolice.com/pixels-shift-production-india/
AdmirableCourt8400 | 8 hours ago
Oh boy you definitely aren't the target market for these high end products lmao.
AdmirableSelection81 | 8 hours ago
>Hahahahahaha
Did you just wake up from a coma you went into in 2008 or something?
Affectionate_One_700 | 9 hours ago
> Hahahahahaha
You really should visit China.
You have hidden your comments, so I'll assume you are a white American. (Because in my experience, they are the most racist against Chinese.) China is the global leader in a whole array of critical technologies.
Denying that reality isn't a recipe for success.
ratbearpig | 7 hours ago
The one thing that China cannot “copy” is heritage. That just comes with delivering quality products over an extended period of time.
Take watches, China can, will, and have match the technical mastery and design of any watch brand for a fraction of the cost. What they can’t duplicate is the 100+ years if history of a house such as Rolex or Patek. But that will change as the domestic Chinese brands consistently deliver quality products over time (eg Atelier Wen).
Wise-Seaweed-4077 | 3 hours ago
What are the material, tangible, measurable benefits to "heritage" that aren't just branding/marketing, and why do they matter to the average consumer?
ratbearpig | 2 hours ago
"What are the material, tangible, measurable benefits to "heritage" that aren't just branding/marketing"
None.
"and why do they matter to the average consumer?"
You will have to ask the average consumer that question.
I'm not making a judgement on heritage being "better" than technical mastery. It isn't. I'm saying heritage cannot be copied. It takes time.
The brand story, perceived status, exclusivity, and cultural symbolism is different than the technical and design of an item.
Omega's Speedmaster watch was the first watch on the moon.
One day, when Atelier Wen is on the wristwatch of the first Chinese astronaut on the moon, maybe they can sell the story too and elevate the brand above just technical and design mastery.
grazfest96 | 8 hours ago
I am laughing at Gucci's statement. Imagine paying $1000 for Gucci sneakers made in China? Yikes. People pay the premium because of the made in Italy tag. Then again, since covid alot of poor people buy Gucci now so makes sense. As long as it says Gucci. I am in manufacturing in USA and im buying a Chinese laser made by GWEIKE. Its 70% cheaper than American and European models. The quality is good enough paying 70% less. Chinese make good products but when I want a premier car I'll buy a Benz not whatever shit china is selling.
Affectionate_One_700 | 8 hours ago
China is the global leader in ship construction, EVs. and solar technology, among many many other areas of "hard" technology and industry. They are way ahead of the US and Europe.
And you don't think they can make a handbag?
Incidentally, I think you are not well informed about who physically makes a lot of brandname stuff in Italy today. You might want to google that.
grazfest96 | 8 hours ago
I think they can make a hand bag just as well. Its the "Made in China" label that they can't get rid of. Hey, in a generation or 2 that might not matter but now Europeans and Americans dont want nice things that say "Made in China"
Affectionate_One_700 | 8 hours ago
That's fair. The Made in Japan brand went through the same transition. I had an Operations professor who talked about this.
> Europeans and Americans dont want nice things that say "Made in China"
More Americans should visit China. It is a very impressive place.
fourunderthebridge | 7 hours ago
You're allowed to have your own opinion but
>premier car I'll buy a Benz not whatever shit china is selling.
You're not familiar with cars huh. Current day Chinese EVs shit on Benzes of the same price range.
grazfest96 | 7 hours ago
Who said anything about EVs? MBs stink.
fourunderthebridge | 6 hours ago
Did you not just say a "premier" car? ICE Benzes are not that good either.
polytique | 6 hours ago
Many premium products are made in China, look at the iPhone. Using Mercedes Benz as an example is funny because they are one of the least reliable car brands. Consumer Reports ranked them 23rd among 31 car brands you can buy in the US.
grazfest96 | 5 hours ago
Come talk to me when the world starts buying Chinese brands. Its nice commie government is heavily subsidizing BYD. Let's see how long that lasts
polytique | 28 minutes ago
This isn’t the 1990s, China has caught up in car manufacturing. China exported 4.2 million cars in just the first half of 2026. Just looking at BYD, they sell in 119 countries and are on target for 1.5 million vehicles sold outside China this year.
Queasy_Artist6891 | 7 hours ago
If China can produce the same output for a lower cost, of course private companies will go there.
swoonz101 | 5 hours ago
They’re not wrong tho? I’ve got a few friends who are retailers that used to buy from china only if they had a high order quantity or local suppliers were expensive.
However, in recent years they’ve been travelling and buying because the products are simply much better in quality and they no longer need high order quantities for a good price.
pokemonizepic | 3 hours ago
This isn’t 2002 anymore
grazfest96 | 2 hours ago
You are right. Gucci would never dream in 2002 watering down their brand this much to have their products made in China
pokemonizepic | an hour ago
Whatever you say racist weirdo
grazfest96 | 51 minutes ago
Yes everything is rscist. Because when I want to buy a 500 dollar tee shirt from Gucci, I want to say Made in China instead of Made in Italy.
Square_Level4633 | 8 hours ago
Whereas the fashion house has factories in Italy with cheap Chinese labor instead?
Complete-Refuse-3262 | 10 hours ago
The open line from Fortune “ Gucci don’t mention china’s forced labour”
Fortune never reported that the usa utilises slave labour from prisons and its written in the constitution
You go jail in usa you become a slave labourer as per the constitution
polytique | 6 hours ago
The brands crafting their leathers in Italy also use African and Asian migrant labor in extremely poor working conditions.
> "For my type of work, I had to stand up for 14 hours, working on my feet," recounted Abbas, who said he worked alongside around 50 Pakistani, Afghan and Chinese migrants, making bags and leather accessories for international luxury brands. He declined to identify the workshop for fear of retaliation.
> "My legs hurt so much, I couldn't sleep at night. I couldn't go to the toilet anymore, or sit down," said Abbas, who declined to disclose his full name or give details of his current contractor for fear of losing his job.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/how-migrant-workers-suffered-craft-made-italy-luxury-label-2024-09-18/
BadgersHoneyPot | 9 hours ago
Here come the Xinhua shills.
Affectionate_One_700 | 9 hours ago
Which country has a much higher incarceration rate: China or the USA?
Edit: downvoting because the truth is unpleasant?
HarambeTooSoon | 8 hours ago
Which country executes tens of thousands of prisoners every year?
Affectionate_One_700 | 8 hours ago
I don't know, you tell me. If they're executing drug lords and gang leaders, I would say "good for them"!
Americans have become so accustomed to living with extremely high rates of crime that you don't believe that an alternative is possible.
HarambeTooSoon | 8 hours ago
lol....Yes. China only executes "drug lords"
You're a tool.
Affectionate_One_700 | 8 hours ago
You MAGA are something else.
Here - worship your great leader.
Dr_MantisTobaggin_MD | 8 hours ago
Scary world givong the government the ability to kill its citizens
Phugasity | 8 hours ago
16-25% of the incarcerated people on Earth are in prison in the US. The US is less than 10% of the global popultion.
Affectionate_One_700 | 8 hours ago
Don't tell me, tell the people who think China is is nothing but evil oppressors and copyright thieves, while the US is nothing but cuddles and sweet dreams.
Phugasity | 7 hours ago
Don't kink shame my joy of answering rhetorical questions!
Wise-Seaweed-4077 | 3 hours ago
So you don't dispute their point. Righto
FengYiLin | 8 hours ago
Here comes the Xinhua shills with their facts. Where are my non-bot NED non-shills with their non-propaganda counterfacts?
BadgersHoneyPot | 5 hours ago
Watch their comments fall off. It's 12 AM there in Beijing as I write.
FengYiLin | 4 hours ago
At the same time it's bright day now in USA. Watch their Rohan upvote campaign wash away the wrong facts.
DrawingDramatic1641 | 5 hours ago
lmao,chinese propaganda bcz how dare usa use forced prison labour
thewimsey | 3 hours ago
This is simply not true. No matter how much you really want it to be.
peaheezy | 9 hours ago
Cool whataboutisn bro.
polytique | 6 hours ago
A more direct comparison is with Italy where these fashion brands are from, you'll see subcontractors employing undocumented workers and paying them a few hundred euros for 14-hour days.
Danimalsyogurt88 | 8 hours ago
Yes it’s whataboutism. But it’s also valid criticism of pure hypocrisy.
American news outlets has valid concerns about Chinese supply chain logistics.
At the same time there is valid criticism that those same news outlets indirectly benefits from the same fruits of illegal or unconstitutional labor that China engages in.
So Fortune made a valid criticism, but it is 100% hypocritical.
WoWMHC | 9 hours ago
bUt aMeRiCa bAd tOo
Yea… requiring prisoners to support the prison with maintenance, cooking, landscaping, etc ain’t the dunk you think it is.
Not that the prison system can’t do better but this is a super weird whataboutism post.
1nfam0us | 9 hours ago
I agree that it is whataboutism, but prison labor in the US is often more than just supporting the prison itself.
Most wildland firefighters are unpaid or low paid prisoners. They can't even do the job professionally when they get out because of their conviction.
Many prisons also engage in productive activities. Manufacturing and stamping license plates being a famous example.
China has used it's extreme surplus of labor and naked labor exploitation to undermine industry and manufacturing in other countries for a long time, and also other countries (the US in particular) uses extremely exploitative labor practices. The only reason industrial economies making goods to sell to their own markets don't typically use slave labor is because slaves can't buy mass produced goods. Manufacturing for export, can absolutely do that though.
Multiple things can be true at once.
WoWMHC | 9 hours ago
Go look at the numbers. The vast majority of the prison labor is used for the prison itself or to save the government money.
I’m not even saying it’s right but comparing that to Gucci apparel is just dumb.
Wise-Seaweed-4077 | 3 hours ago
Maybe we shouldn't have the largest prison population per capita in the history of developed nations. That might save a few pennies here and there.
thewimsey | 3 hours ago
Prisons haven’t made license plates for decades.
And prisoners who work as firefighters aren’t slaves and can choose not to work.
Danimalsyogurt88 | 8 hours ago
Lol you are clearly not doing any research with that comment.
This is not a defense of China. But merely your comment is naive.
https://theappeal.org/angola-farm-line-fifth-circuit-eight-amendment/
WoWMHC | 8 hours ago
Yea some of them sell goods and I think it's wrong if they prisoners don't make a wage. It's still a false comparison and has nothing to do with Gucci.
H3llrais3r330 | 8 hours ago
That’s a long way to say you like licking boots…
WoWMHC | 8 hours ago
Yea… pointing out a stupid comparison is licking boots. If we want to do apples to apples, what’s China’s prisons look like? Not too good.
Instead of racing to the fucking bottom with this “but bad America and does X” stay on topic and demand Gucci do better.
If there’s a post about America’s prisons and some wanker mentions how Gucci uses forced labor in China, would you not think that is some weird whataboutism???
WoWMHC | 8 hours ago
Yea… pointing out a stupid comparison is licking boots. If we want to do apples to apples, what’s China’s prisons look like? Not too good.
Instead of racing to the fucking bottom with this “but America does X shit” stay on topic and demand Gucci do better.
If there’s a post about America’s prisons and some wanker mentions how Gucci uses forced labor in China, would you not think that is some weird whataboutism???
Complete-Refuse-3262 | 9 hours ago
You’re stupid please go educate yourself on the usa constitution and how it endorses slave labour
This people work for private companies not to maintain the prison you eddyat!
WoWMHC | 9 hours ago
I’m aware of the 13th amendment.
What’s that got to do with Gucci and China?
RashmaDu | 7 hours ago
I mean, I agree, but this article is focused on Europe, so I think your criticism is slightly misguided too. I think Europeans would be shocked to know about that system in the US too
Complete-Refuse-3262 | 7 hours ago
No its Not misguided its well placed within the political economic discourse of the two biggest economic superpowers ffs!
RashmaDu | 6 hours ago
My point is that this article does not mention the US at all, it's about the EU and China. I agree that Fortune should be writing articles about slave labour in the US. I don't think it's necessary for this article
TheMountainWhoDews | 9 hours ago
Right, but there's a difference between paying murderers 6c an hour to make helmets vs uyghur death camps. Believe it or not, one is a lot worse than the other.
No-Telephone5141 | 9 hours ago
You would expect pictures or eyewitnesses after so many years of atrocities against Uyghurs. Also amazing there are Uyghurs left and certainly not expecting the population is growing much more than the Han majority.
ratbearpig | 8 hours ago
Son, there are no Uygur death camps. Even the UN reports don’t go so far.
Complete-Refuse-3262 | 9 hours ago
No its not - Slavery should not be a feature of any constitution in the 21st century are you retarded mate?
Would you want your family to be slave labourers ?
As for the uyghur ask yourself why cia failed to stage a colour revolution in China (https://libertarianinstitute.org/articles/cia-further-discredits-uyghur-genocide-by-admitting-covert-influence-campaign/ )
ask them they will tell you
abdallha-smith | 8 hours ago
Here's a list of the atrocities committed by the ccp in Xinjiang (source:united nations) :
https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/country-reports/ohchr-assessment-human-rights-concerns-xinjiang-uyghur-autonomous-region
CertainCertainties | 9 hours ago
I don't think millions of iPhones were made in death camps. I think the DoJ investigation described the Uyghurs making US iPhone parts as 'forced labour'.
amendment64 | 7 hours ago
Yeah, tell that to the uighurs, tell that to those folks in Hong Kong, tell that to anyone who talks shit on the CCP. They just straight murder you, no incarceration needed. I dont really care if you dont believe me cause you're a Xi shill. The US government is bad, sure, but the Chinese government has the consolidated power to corruptly remove dissidents and dissappear them, and there is nothing the locals can do about it.
I got a buddy in China who teaches English, and he talks about everyone knowing at least 1 person who has been disappeared. Obv they dont talk about it for fear of also being disappeared.
HedonisticFrog | 4 hours ago
Why are you defending American slave labor though? Just because China has terrible working conditions doesn't mean it's okay for America to do the same.
amendment64 | 3 hours ago
Uh, I dont? The labor used in US prisons is objectively bad.
Complete-Refuse-3262 | 7 hours ago
In the usa we know of child rapists whose a president 👀
China just executed former government officials for bribery
Yes neither usa nor china are innocent
But jumping on your high moral horse without all the facts is so baffling
But i am not suprised always been like that
Impossible-Cost-8437 | 7 hours ago
Reddit in 2026 still allowing racism towards Asians and China to be cool. Never get rid of the white supremacy reddit.
/s.
Weird how reddit is casually or blatantly racist towards China. Doesn't factor in western white supremacy and imperialism. Say anything positive about Chinas economic developments and the MAGA bots comes at you
DrawingDramatic1641 | 5 hours ago
bruh at least divide the news agencies, at this point we have same agencies writing china is jut copy cat and cant innovate and simultaneously catching up and going to take over the world somehow.
Skeptical0ptimist | 2 hours ago
I guess people have forgotten how to do limited international trade? EEC (European Economic Community) and EC (European Community) used to be masters at this. Combination of tariffs and import quotas allowed foreign goods to enter, but not the extent of hollowing out indigenous industries.
I guess American free trade champions trained them well. Trade is not a binary choice between an iron curtain or free trade.
Khayalmetal | 10 hours ago
Amen to that. I cannot believe how many devices I use are now chinese brands. NOT just made in china. Proper chinese brands with customer service to die for and product western countries can never imagine making. More power to China. As an Indian it makes me sad that we lost the bus to China for now, but as a neighbor, what a marvellous thing to witness in the neighborhood.
kananishino | 9 hours ago
This sounds like some weird shill.
"Western countries can never imagine making"
SonChadhan | 8 hours ago
China hours
nycdiveshack | 9 hours ago
As a fellow Indian born in Gujarat I wish India would turn itself into a massive manufacturing hub for the whole world focused on recycling centers for everything from plastics to recycling and manufacturing for renewables. It would take a few decades of real work but we could get off oil and really create a mindset amongst Indian people to clean up our country and keep it clean all while making money and giving jobs.
sicklyslick | 5 hours ago
India needs to build infrastructure. You can't be a manufacturing hub if the rails are connected, roads aren't paved, and docks that can't manage volumes.
nycdiveshack | 4 hours ago
Yes that’s why I said it would take decades
Charming_Raccoon4361 | 9 hours ago
No desiplin in India and people are generally lazy
solomons-mom | 9 hours ago
In 2025, ndia exported $56b of pretoleum products and received in $151b remitences from Indians working abroad. Many of those who have been remitting money have been/will be returning and many will be engineers. Will those returning take the lead in changing in "mindset" that tolerates bribes? (And rapes?) Or will more movements like Cockroach spring up?
Shuri_JPN | 9 hours ago
Nobody cares about your opinion as "an Indian".
WhoaAwesome | 9 hours ago
Speak for yourself the context helps with their perspective.
Wafflez424 | 9 hours ago
I care.. it literally puts their statement in context as you know, India and China are very similar countries in terms of size and population plus starting points but have ended up in very different places.
ItsallaboutProg | 9 hours ago
No one cares about your opinion as a “human.”
Khayalmetal | 9 hours ago
Awww... Thank you so much. I hope whatever ails you is not life threatening.
Shuri_JPN | 9 hours ago
No worries, It's not life threatening:) But the secondhand embarrassment i get from fellow countrymen like you sure is a pain in the ass.
Khayalmetal | 6 hours ago
Fellow indian? Helllllossss from Cambridge Massachusetts
abdallha-smith | 8 hours ago
The OP is a Chinese from Singapour and likes to stir things up.
There's too much wumaos manipulating narratives on reddit.
They uses bot farms to fabricate comments chains and upvoting them to create legitimacy.
Don't be fooled.
DrawingDramatic1641 | 5 hours ago
everyone who i dont like is a russian agent-2016
now its china in 2026
probably be india in 2046
nigeria in 2056 a
by 2066 europe will realise it isnt what it used to be
abdallha-smith | 5 hours ago
"Who hurt you, bro ?"
Deprogram yourself hasan
DrawingDramatic1641 | 4 hours ago
who is hasan?mehdi hasan or sm shit,
i aint middle eastern fuck al jazeera
abdallha-smith | 3 hours ago
Play coy
Impossible-Cost-8437 | 8 hours ago
Europe got rich off of slavery and white imperialism and white supremacy. If china growing means less slaves for the EU , then that is decolonization. To want better for your people who have been enslaved is normal
Edit: funny how there is so much anti-China hate. Say anything truthful of China or western imperialism or western slavery on the world, bam, immediately down voted by white supremacists. Reddit never changes
Charming_Beyond3639 | 7 hours ago
Because acknowledging theyre surpassing us would require acknowledging what we believed wasnt accurate and was wrong. We all know theres at least 30% of the population that is incapable of that.
Impossible-Cost-8437 | 7 hours ago
Probably more. In universities, acknowledge white supremacy, western imperialism, global slavery, and western colonialism, is such an important framework to use when discussing economics. But I guess if the EU and the US rely on slavery till this dat of Asia and tge global south, despite that being an important piece, the MAGA bots would rather pretend that it doesnt matter.
As for passing, there isn't anything wrong with that. It's a net good for the world and even the EU if they worked with China. It's actually a net positive for the world. But if it wasnt China, it would just be a different country white supremacists would hate, like Japan or Korea. Last thing white reddit wants is a strong Africa.
30% is too kind. More like 85% or more
azerty543 | 3 hours ago
Pretty sure everyone wants a strong Africa so that they stop being receivers of aid and engaging in constant civil wars and instead become customers for our goods and services.
Nobody benefits from a poor and unstable Africa.
haixiang623 | an hour ago
At least five years ago, I witnessed many insightful comments here, which pointed out the necessity of strengthening the military and industrial strategic planning in Europe.
However, five years have passed, and what I have witnessed is still a stagnant or even regressive reality.
One could interpret those harsh criticisms as propaganda from China, but this would only make the reality seem even more tragic.
Willinton06 | 7 hours ago
Europe will be fine cause automation is coming soon, and they’ll integrate it into their welfare system instead of letting corporations take the reign, so they’ll tons of small businesses saving money by hiring less workers, and th welfare state to cover for them, way better than the American solution
DangerousTurmeric | 6 hours ago
Who is going to pay for the welfare state if all of the blue collar jibs are done by robots that don't pay taxes?
astrawberryandakiwi | 5 hours ago
America
PresidentRevrac | 6 hours ago
And where is the welfare state money coming from?