I had a baby five weeks ago, and a lot of new mom posts are promoted to me on facebook. So many of these moms are anti vaxxers, it's insane. They also discuss doing practices that have been proven to be unsafe.
I once looked up the term "black salve". This is a so-called alternative remedy for cancer. It's a highly corrosive material that eats away at flesh. The pictures of people who have used it are horrendous. But it has this strange following of people who somehow believe that it will dissolve tumors or something.
I happened upon some kind of blog post fellow one who had breast cancer. She decided that she did not want to have surgery done, and so opted for using natural remedies, including that one. There were all these other women who wrote In to encourage her. They were telling her that she was being brave and that the doctors were all just trying to take her money, and so on.
And so you could trace over time for blog posts in which she described her symptoms. The corrosive salve was painful, and she took that to mean that it was powerful and was working. The bizarre Greek chorus that responded to her echoed those words and told her that she should stay the course. She then said that a wound had opened up in her breast and was oozing fluids, and she took that to mean the salve was "drawing out" the cancer.
She eventually had to keep bath towels packed around her chest because of the fluids and smell, but was excited that there was some kind of fleshy material that was emerging from her breast. She figured that this was the tumor itself kind of crawling out of her body, and soon it would fall out of her in it's entirety. But her husband and other people were begging her to resume conventional treatments, which she refused. And all of the people responding to her told her that she was being strong.
Eventually the blog posts stopped. I took that to mean that she finally succumbed to the fungating tumor that she had allowed to grow in her body, along with any metastases that were taking over her other organs. It was like a horror show.
I have a 4 month old and am also getting these crunchy mom Facebook pages promoted to me. It infuriates me and takes everything in me not to reply because it is useless to argue with these types of people. Although I would NEVER wish harm on these babies (the real victims) you wonder what it would take for these parents to learn. It's sad and so frustrating.
My daughter is 5 months and I still get the anti vax/crunchy mom/ co sleeping bullshit on my Facebook feed no matter how many times I hit not interested
They listen to “influencers” more than doctors. Too many women doing free births or at home births, or declining inductions and go up to 42 weeks putting their baby and their lives at risk. Even if they have a condition requiring an induction they try to argue about why it’s not needed. Then they get terrified that there’s a black box warning on it, but it’s for adults.
Why do they distrust doctors? Is it Western medicine specifically? Is it science and education? I doubt all those people had traumatic situations of medical malpractice and doctors misdiagnosing them or a close relative or friend.
I spoke with a midwife while preparing a 1hr newborn to the hospital from a home birth.
She actively discourages people from home births due to the risks and limitations. Often mothers who choose it have a close friend or relative who talks them into it because of perceived negative or misunderstood action from hospital staff or rude interactions.
Also reported was the number of 2nd births at home as they "feel like they got the hang of it now" and have more confidence delivering at home.
I had an accidental second home birth due to precipitous labor. It actually went very well, but while pushing the baby out I knew there was nothing we could do if something went wrong. It’s an awful thought to have as you’re in the middle of it. The ambulance took about 5 minutes to come, which was very fast. However that could be fatal if the baby isn’t breathing or the mother is hemorrhaging. We’re done but I would have gone to hospital for a third.
We definitely have a problem in this country of women across the board not getting the care they need because doctors don't listen to women, and dismiss their symptoms, downplay their issues, throw vague untreatable diagnoses at them instead of trying to figure out what is wrong and giving them the treatments they need.
But withdrawing from medical care all together is a bizarre and counterproductive reaction.
While it's true and we need to do better, I also think a lot of those people don't actually have those traumatic experiences and are being radicalized independent of their experiences with medical care
As someone who gave birth recently (last 2 years) - its the algorithm and the weight of being a parent. The second it learns your pregnant your content changes DRASTICALLY. You start getting dead baby videos (Rest in Peace my little angel) and anti science videos (Your body was designed for childbirth, read about the cascade of interventions) and "pro women" content (being a mother is your highest aspiration, divine feminine). Plus you start to realize that you are going to be 100% responsible for 100% of the decisions related to keeping that baby alive and the penalty for a mistake is you killed your baby. How many pajamas is too much? What if you feed them formula and they get sick and die? What if you vaccinate and they DO have a bad reaction? Now your baby is dead or disabled permanently and its ALL YOUR FAULT.
The pressure is immense. The inate fear of becoming a parent is immense. And then the algorithm plays on that fear by feeding you soothing videos (you will instictually know how to parent, natural birth is safe, trust in your divine feminine, as a woman youre amazing and you can do this without stupid men doctors who can never understand) and then fear mongering (i gave my baby a vaccine and theu DIED, the doctors missed my kids cancer, its unatural and unsafe to sleep apart from your baby).
Mix in the cocktail of hormones and its the closest to being brainwashed I think I've ever come honestly.
I can say that the majority of people I know have had an unnecessary medical intervention during birth that has caused either issues or trauma. Absolutely this is wide spread. So many women being forced into induction because their babies are ‘too big’, ‘too small’ or some other random thing and literally every single one I know has not had the issue that doctors professed was so dire and then have ended up with trauma. It is so common.
Our hospital bill was $16k out of pocket with insurance not counting time off work. It's failed health policy and it should be obvious why anyone would lie to themselves and buy 2 jetski's instead or pay their rent.
I kniwnits a but of a rhetorical question but i would argue its not a sanity or even intellignce issue.
The people doing this have fallen for lines social influncers use to drive engagement and once they buy into that "truth" its very hard to xhange their minds
It's hard to change someone's mind when eating and paying rent aren't compatible with the facts you're giving them.
It's easier to say "I don't want to go to the hospital because it's best for my baby influencer X told me so" than "I can't go to the hospital because I make enough to not qualify for benefits, but not enough to pay a few grand to the hospital and me and my baby will starve in a park in a country where being poor is used as a sign you're lazy".
It’s literally a vitamin. Even the anti-pharma people seem to know you need vitamins; of all the shots you could get, why oppose that one, the least objectionable of any shots?
My sister declined it when she had her daughter and I asked her why and all I got was “we looked into it and she doesn’t need it”. Meanwhile she’s had every other vaccine so I genuinely cannot figure it tf out.
Ever experienced correcting someone when you know for a fact they are wrong? Some idiots just love that high, especially when it's built into a greater grand conspiracy of the evils of the world trying to (????) So they can have more money, power, and sex traffic kids! Ignore Epstein though, I'm sure that whole thing was nothing. Also ignore who's actually enriching the elites further and consolidating power, your local doctor is the actual enemy here.
From my due date group on facebook, it seems to be the antivaxxers who seem to believe that it is a vaccine. Or even if they know it's not a vaccine, it's still big pharma trying to kill their babies, or something like that.
Oh they know it’s a vitamin. I see a lot of rhetoric saying that if babies were supposed to have that much vitamin K at birth, they already would. So clearly it’s low for a reason, and we shouldn’t be playing god 🫠🫠🫠
I mean great, but do people not remember how many babies died in the past? It's only recent times where baby born = most likely will be a functioning adult in the future. Are they okay with their baby being the one to die?? Since god planned for it
See, I hate this too, just because it's a vitamin, doesn't mean it's harmless to everyone. Again, I'm not anti vaxx, but people like my husband can't have vitamin K because it can literally kill him. This is at stupid as an argument as people swearing everything "natural" is totally fine. For fuck sake. Assuming everything is safe is just as stupid as assuming everything is unsafe.
I find it ironic that the 'crunchy' parents will talk about the benefits of taking all of these various vitamins and will reject a Vitamin K shot for their newborn.
Yup. Their real goal is just to be contrarians, because there's no actual logic behind it. Like you said, they're super pro vitamins, except for when a doctor recommends it...
Do you think there's confusion around the term "essential"?
Like, the primary definition of essential is "necessary for life", while in the context of essential oils, the term "essential" means they contain the "essence" (fragrance/flavor) of the plant—not that they are nutritionally required by the human body.
“I’m Russian. I grew up in Russia. And when people in the West talk about propaganda, I usually understand the theory they’re describing. But emotionally, it feels foreign. Because what they imagine is very clean, very cinematic. Real propaganda is messier. More boring. More human. For a long time, I thought propaganda was something that only worked on people who weren’t very smart. And that belief itself is exactly what propaganda relies on. Because propaganda doesn’t need to make you stupid. It just needs to make you tired. When you live inside it, propaganda doesn’t arrive as an event. There’s no moment where you say, “Ah, yes. Now the propaganda has begun.” The real version is quieter. More psychological. More human. Propaganda doesn’t shout at you until you believe. It just talks until you’re too tired to care, and that’s why it works in the end.”
No, they aren't. They are clearly of the age to have babies. Not all babies will have brain bleeds from this, but a portion will. This is not Darwinism. It's just ignorance that may kill or disable some of their children.
As much as it pains me, social media really needs regulation and very strong censorship when it comes to medical and political issues. It's fine for holiday photos and funny videos but when you have so much targeted disinformation it is dangerous to society.
What pisses me off the most is that we have so, SO much information available. So many people breaking down exactly why people should get vaccinations getting out done by some facebook mom saying, "Trust me bro."
It's not darwinism we can't inherit not needing vitamin K as infants or it would have happened long before we developed vitamin K injections, it's just allowing infants to die preventable deaths
I mean yeah, that’s why babies are born without enough lol. If the selective pressure were that strong that wouldn't be the case, and I’ve even heard some anti-medicine people raise that point. For the ones whose children die because of their own bad choice, I hope it doesn’t bring comfort.
…that’s because it is standard of care to give a vitamin K injection at birth.
Without vitamin K, about 1 in 60 will have a serious bleed.
To your point though, if the selective pressure were that strong our babies wouldn’t all be born with vitamin K deficiency. But they are, and medical science seeks to bridge the gaps that nature left.
About 1.6% neonatals experince life threatening or fatal bleeds. With about 5.4% having serious bleeds
No one counts vit K defincacy deaths, there is a thing called Hospital Quality and Complications Reporting list. Its a huge list of basicly what kills americans in hospitals and vit K deficiency isent on it.
Source I was a hospital QA manager who did reporting to the offices or Medicare and Medicaid for 8 years
Their point is that it isn't going to have an evolutionary impact at these numbers, not that getting the shot isn't important. Think they're just misunderstanding the "Darwinism" meme
It is Darwinian in the sense that if you are not adapted to your environment, you will most likely perish. Darwinism in action. If they had said that it will encourage evolution in the species, then yes, it would have been a wrong claim. :) I think there was some confusion here between the concepts of darwihism and evolution used in this context
They deny it was their fault. They'd have to accept that they believed those idiots enough to let them kill their kid essentially and they can't do that. Look for the interview with the person who's kid died of measles last year. It was all "gods plan" bs and they said they'd do it again. They would let their kid die than get a vaccine.
I’m aggressively pro-vaccine and pro-IM vitamin K, but vitamin K doesn’t prevent febrile seizures. (Neither do vaccines, unless the fever was caused by a vaccine-preventable disease.)
They just really believe we we were looking to hurt them…like lady I don’t want to see a child die especially when it’s a completely preventable thing. She had a 104 fever ended up in the ER. She was now terrified because let’s face it that shit is traumatizing.
The problem is you have to realize that this thing that can be a bit unpleasant (the poke, the crying, sometimes the immune response) is a trade so worse shit hopefully won’t happen or at least will be lesser.
My baby is anemic and needs occasional blood draws to check his iron and hgb. We both cry during blood draws but I’m not going to let him having lifelong issues because his iron was low.
Parents whose kids die need to be charged with criminal negligence and made an example of. I'm sick and tired of children having to suffer because we think everything idiots want to do is fine in the name of freedom.
You can be arrested for leaving your 6-year-old at home without supervision, but not for taking medical action that can kill them. It's insane.
Because you need to authorize it as their parent. They don’t want to give your newborn the hep B shot, then he gets an adverse or allergic reaction to it and ends up in the NICU, and you end up suing the hospital because you didn’t provide informed consent.
You aren't going to know if the baby is going to get an adverse or allergic reaction if it was literally just born. Not only that but it was only verbal consent. 1. no proof provided I was the father 2. Nothing was signed.
Generally nobody knows they will get an adverse or allergic reaction to any medical intervention if they don’t have a recorded instance of such reaction previously. But those reactions can and do occur and a patient, in this case the patient’s parent, must be informed about those risks and give consent. At the hospital both our children were born at we indicated on a paper what we did or did not want them to do to our children.
Because doctors need consent.... I got all the needles for myself and my child, but the expectation is for doctors to ask for consent. Honestly wild take would you be mad at a doctor performing a procedure on you without your consent? I sure as he'll would, even though I take the doctors advice 99% of the time.
But a newborn baby can't consent so it's not really the same at all. In both cases it's a different person making decisions for someone else, be it the doctor or the parent
Look Im not an antivax nut job. Me and my daughter have all the vaccines, I work in a genetics lab ffs. But, yes doctors need consent from the parent, how is that even up for discussion here?
There’s actually nuance to it. There is a thing called implied consent. You to go a clinic or hospital seeking treatment. By going there and asking for treatment you are implying that you consent to them taking care of you. Most places will get a general consent to treatment for you to sign, but most stuff is covered by implied consent. More risky or invasive procedures like surgery require informed consent, so someone explains the procedure and risks and you sign something that says you understand and agree. There has gradually been more and more creep where less stuff is covered under implied consent and more stuff requires individual informed consent.
My sister in law is giving birth in two months. She is refusing the vitamin K shot because “it has antifreeze.” She watched the documentary VAXXED and now she’s not vaccinating for anything.
Yes, and the drops are shown to be less effective. Even if given in multiple doses rather than a large single dose.
And those multiple doses have to be administered by the parents for months (while juggling all the other things that a newborn brings).
Also, countries that rely on the drops have amazing social systems that support parents, including paid parental leave, free health care, and other forms of socialized support for their citizens. All of which the majority of the voting public in the United States seems to be against, for some reason.
But if there is so much (growing) resistance against shots for babies, why doesn't the FDA approve the oral drops? That would save even more lives.
Where I'm from drops are standard, I didn't even know shots like that existed before I read it on reddit. Yes, it's a bit more work for 12 weeks to give the drops once a day, but it's supercheap and non-invasive for your baby.
I don’t understand… the shot and the theoretical drops are the same thing. Why would someone agree to get the drops but not the shot when it’s the same fkn thing in there?
They also tried drops once, they were no where near as affective as the shots were.
I know this is a hot take, but I firmly believe parents should not be allowed to decline standard medical care for their kids.
And at the risk of more downvotes, I don't think they should be allowed to homeschool them unsupervised either.
Children are vulnerable human beings, and we just...leave them at the mercy of their parents as if they're chattel.
I wish this wasn't considered such an extreme take, we'd have so many more living/healthy kids making it to adulthood if we as a culture could stop stroking parents egos.
Wholeheartedly agree with you. I have 3 degrees and am a lawyer and i don’t think i could do a decent job homeschooling my child. The fact that someone with barely more than a high school degree, if that, feels qualified to do a better job than actual teachers with graduate degree training (in Canada you need a masters after undergrad) and time to dedicate to class plans etc is absolutely mental to me. How’s what you’re saying radical?
It is the same principle as educating warfarin users to not eat too many leafy greens (full of vitamin K), rather keep it a steady intake. Vitamin K is the antidote to warfarin. It’s all about blood clotting. I could NEVER marry or reproduce with someone who was against science and evidence-based medicine.
I once thought that the human race was immune to Darwin. Today modern science can keep most people alive to breeding age, regardless of their fitness to live.
Selfish and wrong. I know it’s not super common but if I’d declined that shot and something had happened to my kid because of it I’d have literally never forgiven myself.
What I don't get is why they are going to a clinic to give birth if they don't believe doctors? Why don't they stay home after having done their research on how it has to be done. Or do they ask their neighbors ? I wonder who is qualified to answer their questions? No amount of diploma would do I guess. RFK maybe ?
It's understandable that new parents have questions about every intervention, but vitamin K is one newborn protection worth taking seriously. Babies are naturally born with very low vitamin K stores, and deficiency can cause sudden, sometimes life-threatening internal bleeding without warning. The injection is a simple, well-established way to prevent this.
I'm not fully against this, actually. My kids got it, but knowing now what I didn't know then I might have changed my mind on it. I'm not anti vaxx by any means. My kids are fully vaxxed and get COVID and flu every year. But my husband has Factor V Leiden, which is a blood clotting disorder. Because of that, he can't take anything with vitamin K in it because it's a clotting risk. Factor V is genetic, so my kids were both at risk of having inherited it from their dad, and we wouldn't know until appropriate blood tests are done. So just that shot could have potentially killed them or caused a big clot at least.
And with Factor V being relatively new discovery, most people don't even know they have it until they get a clot or a parent gets a clot, so no one really knows the risk to their kids yet. I think a better option is to keep the placenta attached longer so they receive all the blood from it they're supposed to, before cutting the cord. Less risk all around.
Vitamin K does not cross the placenta in significant amounts, so delayed cord clamping does nothing to affect it. The fact it crosses poorly is why babies are low in K at birth. Duh.
Spreading fake "alternatives" like this is how we get this problem. I don't know what the best thing for Factor V would be, but pretending delayed cord clamping covers the problem is dangerous for all babies, including yours.
You're taking one risk for another. My kids got their K shots but at the time I had no idea the risk I was putting them in for clots. My father in law died as a result of a clot caused by Factor V, and I unknowingly put my kids at major risk of a clot. Far more of a risk of a clot for them than a bleeding risk. And that's a fucking fact
But that just means that you have a responsibility to use your risk profile to make an informed decision. I hear what you’re saying completely that your kids were at risk. But your edge case is not the norm, and it cannot be used in good faith as a justification for the -general- refusal of the vitamin K shot. Just like with rare vaccine side effects and how this cannot be a reason to be anti vax even if there is SOME amount of risk.
I don't disagree, but there also needs to be some sort of test for this before. Maybe start testing parents before baby is born to see if there's Factor V risk present. It just seems nuts to me to trade one risk for another
Yes, testing for Factor V beforehand is a great idea. Attempting to treat vitamin K deficiency using delayed cord clamping IS NOT a good idea because it doesn't address the issue. Kids with Factor V would probably need a different, VALID treatment.
I am 100% in support of delayed cord clamping, by the way. I requested it for my kids but was denied due to C-section-related issues. It's good for babies for many reasons. I just don't expect it to cure issues it doesn't cure.
Maybe china is on to something. No degree, no medical advice on social media. Also a lot of ppl are refusing births at hospital dt costs in America. And some are refusing it because Europe uses vit k drops instead of the shots but that’s like over 6 weeks and they have hospital sourced oral options not crap from Amazon/ebay and home nurse visitors that monitor the vit k etc.
We give our 5 month old the recommended set of vaccines. It seems like quite a normal course, but every time we come in for an immunization the doc is like “Ah, hooray my science parents!” Really gives me some perspective. How much does he have to struggle to convince the other parents to use modern medical technology? Vaccines are about as amazing of an invention as humans have ever come up with, especially new ones like infant RSV vaccine. Do you want a healthy kid or not?
This should be considered child abuse. If this caused a newborn to die, the parents should be charged with negligent homicide. Parent's should not be allowed to use their ignorance as an excuse to kill babies.
I'm not sad a lot of these nut jobs will lose their kids, they don't deserve to be parents. It's a shame the children must suffer and die, due to their parents cultish ignorance. But most of those kids would grow up in nightmares and be broken by the insanity of their parents. It's better IMO for them to be spared that.
Did the study account for parents choosing to give vit k orally rather than a shot? This is what we chose for our kids, it's just as effective but less painful / stressful for baby, but under these study rules would we have been classed as decliners?
That’s not true. Oral vitamin K is demonstrably worse at preventing fatal brain bleeding (which is a horrible, painful, and very stressful way to die) than IM vitamin K.
I truly do not understand why people bring children into the world if they think the 1-second pain of an injection is so awful. If you can’t handle that you NEED to get help as soon as possible to learn to cope with your child’s distress.
Before people become parents they need to confront the fact that at some point, something bad will happen to their child. Not “getting a shot” bad. Actually, seriously bad. And you hope it’s not one of the worst things and you take the precautions that are reasonable to prevent it from being one of the worst things. Many of those precautions ARE shots.
Oral vitamin K is NOT as effective as the shot, at all. If you chose to become a parent when you can’t handle supporting your child through literally one second of discomfort I’m begging you, for your child’s sake, to find a way to develop the fortitude that you need to be a parent that can support your child through the actual, serious challenges they will face in this life. Children deserve parents that have that and they deserve parents who believe in them. Because truthfully, so many parents put their kids at risk because they
cannot handle their own discomfort at seeing their child briefly in pain and it is so disheartening.
Oral is not nearly as effective compared to the injection. So it’s not an equal choice, it’s proven to be less. Getting an injection in a newborn is a non issue. It’s over in a second. Dying of a hemorrhage would be significantly worse.
The odds of hemmorage are low anyway and with any form of vit k they fall to negligible. As parents we make riskier choices every day. You need to be going after the parents who didn't give their kids any vit k. Not sure why people are so invested in a low risk choice I made years ago.
But making a choice against science isn’t making a good choice. Assuming you know more than doctors and scientists and making a subpar choice is still not following recommendations. I don’t know how that’s better? It’s still a wrong choice and not equivalent.
I go by what my doctor recommends, and they were more than happy with us using oral vit k. They said it wasn't an unusual request and provided we followed all timing instructions (which we did) oral vit k is very effective. Beyond this, my kids received their entire vaccination schedule. I promise you, you really don't have to worry any further - but thank you for your concern 🩷
So did your doctors recommend oral vit k, or did you ask and they acquiesced so your baby was at least getting something? Because I'm betting it was the latter given than the shot is more effective
I don't understand why you're so invested in a choice a stranger made for their own kids with zero consequences, years ago. The chance of hemorrhage is low anyway, the chance with any form of vit k is practically non existent. As parents we weigh up decisions every minute of the day. I looked at the odds and considered this a good choice. Do you harass other parents over their choices in this manner, and if so do you find this is a good strategy?
….. ok but babies also survived for thousands of years without vaccines, antibiotics, blood transfusions, or C-sections. that doesn't mean those interventions aren't beneficial or life saving. the fact that something didn't exist historically isn't evidence that it isn't necessary now. modern medicine continues to evolve.
They are born with lowered clotting abilities that can and sometimes do lead to bleeding inside the brain. Not all babies will have bleeding, but an injection of a very nomal vitamin prevents it from happening altogether.
Not every child dies without wearing a seatbelt, but the incidence of them dying goes up significantly. Do you not seat belt your children in the car?
Ruminants don’t need dietary vitamin k because the bacteria in their rumens make it. Other species get it from eating their own shit. That sounds so much better than a simple injection 🙄
When the baby is born, blood is pumped all over the body to new places - it's important that it doesn't clot. Vitamin K is low at birth for a reason, and shortly resolves itself in nearly all cases. Complication of this kind is rare, and applying medical intervention prophylactically to healthy babies is a racket.
Go to any cemetery. See all the baby graves there from before 1950? Then, hardly any. That's when people started vaccinating their kids. If you are unsure, the answer is, literally, written in stone.
The rate of infant mortality was more affected by clean water, sanitation, sewage treatment, and garbage collection than it was by vaccines or Vitamin K. This is well documented.
They lived to the ripe old age of "Died in childbirth"...
Vitamin K stats for you.
Before Vitamin K shots, the rates of vitamin K deficiency related bleeding in infants was 10.5 per 100K in Japan, 7.2 in Germany, and 4.4 in the UK. After the adoption of Vitamin K, those figures were 2.8 in Japan, 0.25 in Germany, and 0 in the UK
The mortality rate in affected infants is about 9%.
Sankar MJ et al. (2016). Vitamin K prophylaxis for prevention of vitamin K deficiency bleeding: a systematic review.
See my former comment, or just do a cursory search for the answer. It is common medical knowledge. Babies are born with decreased clotting factors (which is what vitamin K helps with) that increase their incidence of intracranial bleeding leading to disability or death.
Why do you think it matters whether we label it as a defect? It can cause serious injuries and death. You can decide what you wanna call it but we have a way to prevent those things. Whether you feel god can make mistakes or not does not matter when your child dies.
If I said this happens in 1 out of 10,000 babies, you might be nervous and think it could happen to you. If I said 99.99% of babies don't need this, you'd ignore this vitamin injection. It's a matter of always favoring medical intervention for all instead of allowing that sometimes there is no need.
I'm opposed to blanket application of prophylactic medicine in healthy people.
"if you don't take it your baby will die" is scaremongering and has no place in medical communication.
infant mortality was insanely high premodernity. that is one reason for both the extremely high sex drive of our species and of course the creation of religion (to accommodate the tragic feelings of infant death).
ChilindriPizza | 22 hours ago
Still scratching my head as to why in the world would any sane person do this.
Iron_Baron | 20 hours ago
They aren't sane. They are in an anti-science cult.
MermaiderMissy | 16 hours ago
I had a baby five weeks ago, and a lot of new mom posts are promoted to me on facebook. So many of these moms are anti vaxxers, it's insane. They also discuss doing practices that have been proven to be unsafe.
Do not use facebook to find new mom groups lol
Unique-Coffee5087 | 16 hours ago
I once looked up the term "black salve". This is a so-called alternative remedy for cancer. It's a highly corrosive material that eats away at flesh. The pictures of people who have used it are horrendous. But it has this strange following of people who somehow believe that it will dissolve tumors or something.
I happened upon some kind of blog post fellow one who had breast cancer. She decided that she did not want to have surgery done, and so opted for using natural remedies, including that one. There were all these other women who wrote In to encourage her. They were telling her that she was being brave and that the doctors were all just trying to take her money, and so on.
And so you could trace over time for blog posts in which she described her symptoms. The corrosive salve was painful, and she took that to mean that it was powerful and was working. The bizarre Greek chorus that responded to her echoed those words and told her that she should stay the course. She then said that a wound had opened up in her breast and was oozing fluids, and she took that to mean the salve was "drawing out" the cancer.
She eventually had to keep bath towels packed around her chest because of the fluids and smell, but was excited that there was some kind of fleshy material that was emerging from her breast. She figured that this was the tumor itself kind of crawling out of her body, and soon it would fall out of her in it's entirety. But her husband and other people were begging her to resume conventional treatments, which she refused. And all of the people responding to her told her that she was being strong.
Eventually the blog posts stopped. I took that to mean that she finally succumbed to the fungating tumor that she had allowed to grow in her body, along with any metastases that were taking over her other organs. It was like a horror show.
mizushimo | 16 hours ago
The sepsis probably got her before the cancer did
woah_man | 13 hours ago
checkmate cancer. /s
Inanimate_organism | 12 hours ago
Good god the algorithms pushed cosleeping SO MUCH those first few months.
Congratulations on your baby and getting through the first 5 weeks!
Pharomzz | 13 hours ago
One of my friends is anti vaccines yet co sleeps and puts her 5 month old on the back of a motorcycle.
JINJOBABY | 11 hours ago
I have a 4 month old and am also getting these crunchy mom Facebook pages promoted to me. It infuriates me and takes everything in me not to reply because it is useless to argue with these types of people. Although I would NEVER wish harm on these babies (the real victims) you wonder what it would take for these parents to learn. It's sad and so frustrating.
wolv3rxne | 11 hours ago
My daughter is 5 months and I still get the anti vax/crunchy mom/ co sleeping bullshit on my Facebook feed no matter how many times I hit not interested
RIPMYPOOPCHUTE | 18 hours ago
They listen to “influencers” more than doctors. Too many women doing free births or at home births, or declining inductions and go up to 42 weeks putting their baby and their lives at risk. Even if they have a condition requiring an induction they try to argue about why it’s not needed. Then they get terrified that there’s a black box warning on it, but it’s for adults.
ChilindriPizza | 18 hours ago
Why do they distrust doctors? Is it Western medicine specifically? Is it science and education? I doubt all those people had traumatic situations of medical malpractice and doctors misdiagnosing them or a close relative or friend.
Seinfield_Succ | 17 hours ago
I spoke with a midwife while preparing a 1hr newborn to the hospital from a home birth.
She actively discourages people from home births due to the risks and limitations. Often mothers who choose it have a close friend or relative who talks them into it because of perceived negative or misunderstood action from hospital staff or rude interactions.
Also reported was the number of 2nd births at home as they "feel like they got the hang of it now" and have more confidence delivering at home.
Unique-Coffee5087 | 16 hours ago
Holy shit.
My wife and second daughter would have died of we had tried that.
mbot369 | 13 hours ago
Me and my daughter as well.
KarmaPolice6 | 6 hours ago
Several of our children were born at home and it was an infinitely better experience.
elara500 | 32 minutes ago
I had an accidental second home birth due to precipitous labor. It actually went very well, but while pushing the baby out I knew there was nothing we could do if something went wrong. It’s an awful thought to have as you’re in the middle of it. The ambulance took about 5 minutes to come, which was very fast. However that could be fatal if the baby isn’t breathing or the mother is hemorrhaging. We’re done but I would have gone to hospital for a third.
swbarnes2 | 15 hours ago
We definitely have a problem in this country of women across the board not getting the care they need because doctors don't listen to women, and dismiss their symptoms, downplay their issues, throw vague untreatable diagnoses at them instead of trying to figure out what is wrong and giving them the treatments they need.
But withdrawing from medical care all together is a bizarre and counterproductive reaction.
jkraige | 12 hours ago
While it's true and we need to do better, I also think a lot of those people don't actually have those traumatic experiences and are being radicalized independent of their experiences with medical care
mbot369 | 13 hours ago
I understand it.
I don’t agree with it, but I understand it.
LoudAppointment2545 | 2 hours ago
As someone who gave birth recently (last 2 years) - its the algorithm and the weight of being a parent. The second it learns your pregnant your content changes DRASTICALLY. You start getting dead baby videos (Rest in Peace my little angel) and anti science videos (Your body was designed for childbirth, read about the cascade of interventions) and "pro women" content (being a mother is your highest aspiration, divine feminine). Plus you start to realize that you are going to be 100% responsible for 100% of the decisions related to keeping that baby alive and the penalty for a mistake is you killed your baby. How many pajamas is too much? What if you feed them formula and they get sick and die? What if you vaccinate and they DO have a bad reaction? Now your baby is dead or disabled permanently and its ALL YOUR FAULT.
The pressure is immense. The inate fear of becoming a parent is immense. And then the algorithm plays on that fear by feeding you soothing videos (you will instictually know how to parent, natural birth is safe, trust in your divine feminine, as a woman youre amazing and you can do this without stupid men doctors who can never understand) and then fear mongering (i gave my baby a vaccine and theu DIED, the doctors missed my kids cancer, its unatural and unsafe to sleep apart from your baby).
Mix in the cocktail of hormones and its the closest to being brainwashed I think I've ever come honestly.
RIPMYPOOPCHUTE | 18 hours ago
I honestly have no idea. I’m grateful for modern medicine especially when I was giving birth.
MermaiderMissy | 16 hours ago
The only reason I can think of is because they think doctors are trying to add on more fees. So they don't think vaccines are real or something.
People become stupid when being charged out the ass for basic healthcare.
Pharomzz | 13 hours ago
Its happening in places with free health care too like NZ
AwayComparison | 12 hours ago
Yup Canada too
MidnightDecent1034 | 2 hours ago
It’s due to internet nonsense being spread by popular social media people. Similar to the “vaccines cause autism” origin.
Sevenoflime | 7 hours ago
I can say that the majority of people I know have had an unnecessary medical intervention during birth that has caused either issues or trauma. Absolutely this is wide spread. So many women being forced into induction because their babies are ‘too big’, ‘too small’ or some other random thing and literally every single one I know has not had the issue that doctors professed was so dire and then have ended up with trauma. It is so common.
wavygr4vy | 2 hours ago
Because doctors aren’t “natural”. They don’t realize that dying in childbirth is natural…
Unique-Coffee5087 | 16 hours ago
>They listen to “influencers” more than doctors
Why in the world would any sane person do that?
RIPMYPOOPCHUTE | 16 hours ago
They’re not sane. I have no idea why they would.
ILikeLenexa | 2 hours ago
Our hospital bill was $16k out of pocket with insurance not counting time off work. It's failed health policy and it should be obvious why anyone would lie to themselves and buy 2 jetski's instead or pay their rent.
MerelyMortalModeling | 21 hours ago
I kniwnits a but of a rhetorical question but i would argue its not a sanity or even intellignce issue.
The people doing this have fallen for lines social influncers use to drive engagement and once they buy into that "truth" its very hard to xhange their minds
ILikeLenexa | 2 hours ago
It's hard to change someone's mind when eating and paying rent aren't compatible with the facts you're giving them.
It's easier to say "I don't want to go to the hospital because it's best for my baby influencer X told me so" than "I can't go to the hospital because I make enough to not qualify for benefits, but not enough to pay a few grand to the hospital and me and my baby will starve in a park in a country where being poor is used as a sign you're lazy".
MerelyMortalModeling | 2 hours ago
While i dont dissagree in some cases the majority of this is happening in hospitals and by wealthy people using midwife services
DeionizedSoup | 19 hours ago
It’s literally a vitamin. Even the anti-pharma people seem to know you need vitamins; of all the shots you could get, why oppose that one, the least objectionable of any shots?
kobekinz | 12 hours ago
My sister declined it when she had her daughter and I asked her why and all I got was “we looked into it and she doesn’t need it”. Meanwhile she’s had every other vaccine so I genuinely cannot figure it tf out.
SparkyDogPants | 12 hours ago
Vitamin k shots have ✨preservatives✨ which are obviously more dangerous than bleeding to death.
ChilindriPizza | 3 hours ago
Fearing preservatives? Somebody has been reading XXXHOLIC too much.
allusernamestaken1 | 7 hours ago
Ever experienced correcting someone when you know for a fact they are wrong? Some idiots just love that high, especially when it's built into a greater grand conspiracy of the evils of the world trying to (????) So they can have more money, power, and sex traffic kids! Ignore Epstein though, I'm sure that whole thing was nothing. Also ignore who's actually enriching the elites further and consolidating power, your local doctor is the actual enemy here.
AmatoerOrnitolog | 4 hours ago
From my due date group on facebook, it seems to be the antivaxxers who seem to believe that it is a vaccine. Or even if they know it's not a vaccine, it's still big pharma trying to kill their babies, or something like that.
essentiallypeguin | 13 hours ago
Easy, they are not sane
Unlikely_Comment_104 | 21 hours ago
Wow. People are dumb.
It’s a vitamin, folks.
It can keep your baby from dying.
CouchGremlin14 | 13 hours ago
Oh they know it’s a vitamin. I see a lot of rhetoric saying that if babies were supposed to have that much vitamin K at birth, they already would. So clearly it’s low for a reason, and we shouldn’t be playing god 🫠🫠🫠
Accomplished_Skin810 | 5 hours ago
I mean great, but do people not remember how many babies died in the past? It's only recent times where baby born = most likely will be a functioning adult in the future. Are they okay with their baby being the one to die?? Since god planned for it
Thick-Access-2634 | 6 hours ago
I wonder if theyd have that same opinion when they get cancer
mrshyphenate | an hour ago
See, I hate this too, just because it's a vitamin, doesn't mean it's harmless to everyone. Again, I'm not anti vaxx, but people like my husband can't have vitamin K because it can literally kill him. This is at stupid as an argument as people swearing everything "natural" is totally fine. For fuck sake. Assuming everything is safe is just as stupid as assuming everything is unsafe.
KAugsburger | 21 hours ago
I find it ironic that the 'crunchy' parents will talk about the benefits of taking all of these various vitamins and will reject a Vitamin K shot for their newborn.
Pale-Buffalo2295 | 13 hours ago
Yep they all inject themselves with unregulated peptides.
Mono_Aural | 2 hours ago
Even when those peptides are really just anabolic steroids with fraudulent packaging
jkraige | 12 hours ago
Yup. Their real goal is just to be contrarians, because there's no actual logic behind it. Like you said, they're super pro vitamins, except for when a doctor recommends it...
Redux01 | 2 hours ago
Feeling like "they're the only ones who really understand" gives the feeling of intelligence and even power. It's what conspiracy theorists thrive on.
thinkB4WeSpeak | 22 hours ago
We really need a clamp down on pseudoscience and these anticvac, raw milk, essential oil people
Silencer306 | 20 hours ago
What’s up with essential oils?
pursnikitty | 19 hours ago
Some people treat them like they have magical properties, or use them in unsafe ways. Or both.
woah_man | 13 hours ago
Do you think there's confusion around the term "essential"?
Like, the primary definition of essential is "necessary for life", while in the context of essential oils, the term "essential" means they contain the "essence" (fragrance/flavor) of the plant—not that they are nutritionally required by the human body.
yterais | 19 hours ago
I see, for me it's just a nice smell
edit: well, I guess eucaliptus oil is good for your tonsils when you're sick
Jerome_Eugene_Morrow | 19 hours ago
Be aware that eucalyptus oil inhalation has been linked to seizures.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5862119/
yterais | 18 hours ago
it's commonly prescribed in Poland by doctors, never heard of it happening
Kosmo_Kramer_ | 22 hours ago
In case this isn't bait.
A century ago 1 in 10 infants died. Today it is around 1 in 1000.
dshgr | 22 hours ago
Darwin in action.
OpheliaLives7 | 22 hours ago
Nah, propaganda in action.
And living too far removed from the times when families literally saw multiple babies die before 5 years old from preventable things
RandomlyMethodical | 22 hours ago
It sorta is Darwinism though. The most susceptible to propaganda are weeding themselves out of the gene pool.
Responsible_Try4766 | 21 hours ago
“I’m Russian. I grew up in Russia. And when people in the West talk about propaganda, I usually understand the theory they’re describing. But emotionally, it feels foreign. Because what they imagine is very clean, very cinematic. Real propaganda is messier. More boring. More human. For a long time, I thought propaganda was something that only worked on people who weren’t very smart. And that belief itself is exactly what propaganda relies on. Because propaganda doesn’t need to make you stupid. It just needs to make you tired. When you live inside it, propaganda doesn’t arrive as an event. There’s no moment where you say, “Ah, yes. Now the propaganda has begun.” The real version is quieter. More psychological. More human. Propaganda doesn’t shout at you until you believe. It just talks until you’re too tired to care, and that’s why it works in the end.”
Not my quote
tree-molester | 19 hours ago
Like the pro crapitalisim campaign of the NAM and the Camber of Commerce. With the help of stooges like Ronald Reagan.
slfnflctd | 21 hours ago
Stupid people can have smart babies.
Shot_Woodpecker_5025 | 16 hours ago
If they survive their parents stupidity
TedGetsSnickelfritz | 20 hours ago
Sure, but statistically they are less likely (something like 2% whereas two smart people its like 18%).
Zachwardpass | 21 hours ago
No, they aren't. They are clearly of the age to have babies. Not all babies will have brain bleeds from this, but a portion will. This is not Darwinism. It's just ignorance that may kill or disable some of their children.
autogenalias | 22 hours ago
So darwinism, in other words.
fanglord | 19 hours ago
As much as it pains me, social media really needs regulation and very strong censorship when it comes to medical and political issues. It's fine for holiday photos and funny videos but when you have so much targeted disinformation it is dangerous to society.
DisciplineBoth2567 | 21 hours ago
That’s still darwinism
Senshisoldier | 12 hours ago
I am sent the propaganda weekly from my activation family. We don't all fall for it.
that-loser-guy-sorta | 21 hours ago
What pisses me off the most is that we have so, SO much information available. So many people breaking down exactly why people should get vaccinations getting out done by some facebook mom saying, "Trust me bro."
LongjumpingJaguar308 | 20 hours ago
Well we DID have so much infornation but AI has broken search engines and the top results are AI articles on BS websites now.
Either-Patience1182 | 22 hours ago
Yup
Unique-Coffee5087 | 16 hours ago
The trouble is that the parents aren't the ones who die
listenyall | 22 hours ago
It's not darwinism we can't inherit not needing vitamin K as infants or it would have happened long before we developed vitamin K injections, it's just allowing infants to die preventable deaths
wozattacks | 22 hours ago
I think they’re talking about the traits that influence parents to make better decisions
listenyall | 21 hours ago
Oh not getting vitamin K definitely doesn't have a high enough death rate for this to happen
wozattacks | 21 hours ago
I mean yeah, that’s why babies are born without enough lol. If the selective pressure were that strong that wouldn't be the case, and I’ve even heard some anti-medicine people raise that point. For the ones whose children die because of their own bad choice, I hope it doesn’t bring comfort.
MerelyMortalModeling | 21 hours ago
Parents make stupid choices and their children die for it. That ends or limits the "stupid choice" genes held by parents.
Classic natural selection aka Darwinism
Daruuk | 21 hours ago
How many babies die in the US each year from "vitamin K" deficiency?
The internet says fewer than 12. That ain't moving the natural selection needle.
wozattacks | 21 hours ago
…that’s because it is standard of care to give a vitamin K injection at birth.
Without vitamin K, about 1 in 60 will have a serious bleed.
To your point though, if the selective pressure were that strong our babies wouldn’t all be born with vitamin K deficiency. But they are, and medical science seeks to bridge the gaps that nature left.
MerelyMortalModeling | 20 hours ago
About 1.6% neonatals experince life threatening or fatal bleeds. With about 5.4% having serious bleeds
No one counts vit K defincacy deaths, there is a thing called Hospital Quality and Complications Reporting list. Its a huge list of basicly what kills americans in hospitals and vit K deficiency isent on it.
Source I was a hospital QA manager who did reporting to the offices or Medicare and Medicaid for 8 years
Glasseshalf | an hour ago
Their point is that it isn't going to have an evolutionary impact at these numbers, not that getting the shot isn't important. Think they're just misunderstanding the "Darwinism" meme
shoeperson | 22 hours ago
Intelligence is heritable so people more susceptible to misinformation are taking themselves out of the gene pool.
goldiegrimlace | 21 hours ago
Smart people fall for misinformation all the time, anyone can be fooled.
shoeperson | 21 hours ago
...this exact scenario discussed is suggesting otherwise.
ancientevilvorsoason | 21 hours ago
It is Darwinian in the sense that if you are not adapted to your environment, you will most likely perish. Darwinism in action. If they had said that it will encourage evolution in the species, then yes, it would have been a wrong claim. :) I think there was some confusion here between the concepts of darwihism and evolution used in this context
Bubbly_Power_6210 | 22 hours ago
another thanks to RFK Jr.? parents-trust your doctor!
Suitable-Option833 | 22 hours ago
Yep. Another maga/maha issue. They want their voters to trust no one but them. It’s really sad.
ProgressBartender | 21 hours ago
Just don’t come crying to me when you meet the inevitable consequences of your actions.
SparkyDogPants | 12 hours ago
Anti vaxxers are actually bi partisan. Both the crunchy crystal vegans and the MAGA cult came together to have the same insane take.
Suitable-Option833 | 54 minutes ago
MAGA and Maha work together. Look at our govt. Maha will not be hired by the democrats. MAGA and Maha are about the same grift.
brijito | 13 hours ago
More medical professionals need to start filing claims of parental abuse and neglect.
Refusing medical care for an infant IS child abuse and everyone needs to start treating it as such.
Unique-Coffee5087 | 16 hours ago
I really cannot understand why there aren't distraught parents who seek revenge. Especially among the Second Amendment crowd.
dantevonlocke | 7 hours ago
They deny it was their fault. They'd have to accept that they believed those idiots enough to let them kill their kid essentially and they can't do that. Look for the interview with the person who's kid died of measles last year. It was all "gods plan" bs and they said they'd do it again. They would let their kid die than get a vaccine.
lshariii | 22 hours ago
People are really stupid.
sfcnmone | 21 hours ago
And they say they’re “pro life”.
jxj24 | 18 hours ago
"Forced Birth"
worthlessj91 | 18 hours ago
Shh they seem to go haywire when you bring up their contradictions.
whereisbeezy | 19 hours ago
Imagine if people stopped creating problems for themselves
More-Grape6036 | 18 hours ago
I work in healthcare. 2 year old who had febrile seizures came for follow-up. Mom who is an anti-vaxer “how could we prevent this in the future!?”
*massive facepalm
MelonCallia | 13 hours ago
I hope someone told her something to the effect of, "The Vitamin K shot you declined for your baby was designed to prevent exactly this."
theenterprise9876 | 13 hours ago
I’m aggressively pro-vaccine and pro-IM vitamin K, but vitamin K doesn’t prevent febrile seizures. (Neither do vaccines, unless the fever was caused by a vaccine-preventable disease.)
Grouchy-Pea2514 | 12 hours ago
How can you vaccinate against a seizure 🙃
SparkyDogPants | 12 hours ago
Toddler probably had the flu or rsv or measles or some other disease you can vaccinate for
More-Grape6036 | 11 hours ago
That is correct yes to flu A
SparkyDogPants | 11 hours ago
Real leap of logic to guess…. /s
More-Grape6036 | 11 hours ago
lol for some it seems to be
SparkyDogPants | 11 hours ago
I’m sure they’re still anti vax and got mad at you and the doctor for recommending vaccines.
More-Grape6036 | 11 hours ago
They just really believe we we were looking to hurt them…like lady I don’t want to see a child die especially when it’s a completely preventable thing. She had a 104 fever ended up in the ER. She was now terrified because let’s face it that shit is traumatizing.
The problem is you have to realize that this thing that can be a bit unpleasant (the poke, the crying, sometimes the immune response) is a trade so worse shit hopefully won’t happen or at least will be lesser.
SparkyDogPants | 11 hours ago
My baby is anemic and needs occasional blood draws to check his iron and hgb. We both cry during blood draws but I’m not going to let him having lifelong issues because his iron was low.
More-Grape6036 | 12 hours ago
Perhaps look up “febrile seizures” then use some critical thinking.
I can only explain it to you. I can’t understand it for you
ancientevilvorsoason | 21 hours ago
That is one way to win Darwin's award
Uuuurrrrgggghhhh | 12 hours ago
Does it count if you force a baby to win the award on your behalf tho?
ancientevilvorsoason | 9 hours ago
I believe so
FourScores1 | 4 hours ago
Genetics are passed down to the baby, so yes. Baby gets sick and doesn’t have the chance to pass along their parents traits.
Moonhunter7 | 20 hours ago
Well how else to we get 5G into the children?
BackItUpWithLinks | 19 hours ago
There has not been a serious complication from getting vitamin k in 50 years. Refusing it should be considered abuse.
Agitated_Celery_729 | 19 hours ago
Parents whose kids die need to be charged with criminal negligence and made an example of. I'm sick and tired of children having to suffer because we think everything idiots want to do is fine in the name of freedom.
You can be arrested for leaving your 6-year-old at home without supervision, but not for taking medical action that can kill them. It's insane.
buecker02 | 21 hours ago
When I had my first child 2 months ago they asked me about the vitamin k and a few other shots and I said" I believe in science."
I was confused why they would even ask me these things and a little perplexed that people wouldn't want their baby to be healthy on day 1.
Big_Iron_Cowboy | 21 hours ago
Because you need to authorize it as their parent. They don’t want to give your newborn the hep B shot, then he gets an adverse or allergic reaction to it and ends up in the NICU, and you end up suing the hospital because you didn’t provide informed consent.
buecker02 | 20 hours ago
You aren't going to know if the baby is going to get an adverse or allergic reaction if it was literally just born. Not only that but it was only verbal consent. 1. no proof provided I was the father 2. Nothing was signed.
Big_Iron_Cowboy | 20 hours ago
Generally nobody knows they will get an adverse or allergic reaction to any medical intervention if they don’t have a recorded instance of such reaction previously. But those reactions can and do occur and a patient, in this case the patient’s parent, must be informed about those risks and give consent. At the hospital both our children were born at we indicated on a paper what we did or did not want them to do to our children.
binarygoatfish | 19 hours ago
You are confused that someone asked permission to do something to your child??? Oh dear god.
lukewarmy | 5 hours ago
Fwiw in my country they don't ask.
However they also ignored that I didn't want an episiotomy. The doctors basically choose what's best for you and you deal with it.
buecker02 | 15 hours ago
fuck off
No_Morning5397 | 18 hours ago
Because doctors need consent.... I got all the needles for myself and my child, but the expectation is for doctors to ask for consent. Honestly wild take would you be mad at a doctor performing a procedure on you without your consent? I sure as he'll would, even though I take the doctors advice 99% of the time.
buecker02 | 15 hours ago
what doctor? there was nothing to sign!
jkraige | 12 hours ago
But a newborn baby can't consent so it's not really the same at all. In both cases it's a different person making decisions for someone else, be it the doctor or the parent
No_Morning5397 | 3 hours ago
Look Im not an antivax nut job. Me and my daughter have all the vaccines, I work in a genetics lab ffs. But, yes doctors need consent from the parent, how is that even up for discussion here?
FlamingoEarringo | 15 minutes ago
Why would they ask the baby for consent? The parents are for that
SparkyDogPants | 12 hours ago
It’s 100% the same. You have to give consent for all medical treatments for your kids until they’re 18.
jkraige | 11 hours ago
You giving consent for yourself is not the same as giving consent for someone else. It's really not a difficult concept to grasp
sksauter | 46 minutes ago
You can absolutely morally and legally consent on someone else's behalf, or tons of people would die. You're really going to die on that hill?
Grump_NP | 4 hours ago
There’s actually nuance to it. There is a thing called implied consent. You to go a clinic or hospital seeking treatment. By going there and asking for treatment you are implying that you consent to them taking care of you. Most places will get a general consent to treatment for you to sign, but most stuff is covered by implied consent. More risky or invasive procedures like surgery require informed consent, so someone explains the procedure and risks and you sign something that says you understand and agree. There has gradually been more and more creep where less stuff is covered under implied consent and more stuff requires individual informed consent.
darknessdown | 16 hours ago
The funniest part is that there’s a non trivial number of nurses who are vaccine skeptics and “naturalists”
Colla-Crochet | 12 hours ago
I gave consent for my son. The doctor was like do you want the vitamin k shot for him? I just said sure.
The doctor paused and looked at me and said, I need you to explicitly tell me you want the shot. I told him yes I want the vitamin k shot for my son.
I remember thinking the exact wording required was odd. Then I learned about People refusing
dcdcdani | 45 minutes ago
My sister in law is giving birth in two months. She is refusing the vitamin K shot because “it has antifreeze.” She watched the documentary VAXXED and now she’s not vaccinating for anything.
Dangerous-Leader-779 | 13 hours ago
You’re confused they asked for consent as legally required before giving your brand-new baby a shot?
….okay. Imagine if they didn’t ask for consent. Talk about a shit show…
OldeTimeyShit | 19 hours ago
You know there are scientifically approved drops too.
BeeDancePants | 18 hours ago
Yes, and the drops are shown to be less effective. Even if given in multiple doses rather than a large single dose.
And those multiple doses have to be administered by the parents for months (while juggling all the other things that a newborn brings).
Also, countries that rely on the drops have amazing social systems that support parents, including paid parental leave, free health care, and other forms of socialized support for their citizens. All of which the majority of the voting public in the United States seems to be against, for some reason.
theenterprise9876 | 13 hours ago
There is no FDA-approved oral vitamin K for infants in the US, and the injection is more effective. IM vitamin K literally saves babies’ lives.
suusemeid | 10 hours ago
But if there is so much (growing) resistance against shots for babies, why doesn't the FDA approve the oral drops? That would save even more lives.
Where I'm from drops are standard, I didn't even know shots like that existed before I read it on reddit. Yes, it's a bit more work for 12 weeks to give the drops once a day, but it's supercheap and non-invasive for your baby.
Thick-Access-2634 | 6 hours ago
I don’t understand… the shot and the theoretical drops are the same thing. Why would someone agree to get the drops but not the shot when it’s the same fkn thing in there?
They also tried drops once, they were no where near as affective as the shots were.
rbobby | 21 hours ago
Baby like it's 1800!
badgersoccer1905 | 20 hours ago
Idiots. More idiots.
make_me_breakfast | 17 hours ago
I’m glad I’m smart enough to know I don’t know everything. I told the doctor to give my newborn the works.
jujuscroll | 8 hours ago
I know this is a hot take, but I firmly believe parents should not be allowed to decline standard medical care for their kids.
And at the risk of more downvotes, I don't think they should be allowed to homeschool them unsupervised either.
Children are vulnerable human beings, and we just...leave them at the mercy of their parents as if they're chattel.
I wish this wasn't considered such an extreme take, we'd have so many more living/healthy kids making it to adulthood if we as a culture could stop stroking parents egos.
whooopdattrick | 2 hours ago
Ah yes because there is a standard of parenting that we should follow what you do.
natawas | 2 hours ago
Should be
whooopdattrick | 2 hours ago
Imagine thinking youre the all knowing on what parenting standards should be across the board.
Levels of arrogance ive yet to see topped
natawas | 2 hours ago
Imagine thinking you’re all knowing when you think you know better than people with advanced degree and practice training. Go away bot
whooopdattrick | 32 minutes ago
Never said im all knowing , pointing out blatant hypocrisy.
Youre acting as if you are the arbiter on parenting. Youre degrees are meaningless. Every single child is different.
You dont have kids and if you do, I feel bad for them
natawas | 2 hours ago
Wholeheartedly agree with you. I have 3 degrees and am a lawyer and i don’t think i could do a decent job homeschooling my child. The fact that someone with barely more than a high school degree, if that, feels qualified to do a better job than actual teachers with graduate degree training (in Canada you need a masters after undergrad) and time to dedicate to class plans etc is absolutely mental to me. How’s what you’re saying radical?
Suitable-Option833 | 22 hours ago
Thank you maga and maha. I feel for their kids
New-Analysis-4060 | 21 hours ago
Darwinning
Admirable-Sink-2622 | 18 hours ago
Let them learn the hard way. Apparently it needs to be discovered all over again for - reasons 🙄
overflowingsunset | 18 hours ago
It is the same principle as educating warfarin users to not eat too many leafy greens (full of vitamin K), rather keep it a steady intake. Vitamin K is the antidote to warfarin. It’s all about blood clotting. I could NEVER marry or reproduce with someone who was against science and evidence-based medicine.
TangleOfWires | 16 hours ago
I once thought that the human race was immune to Darwin. Today modern science can keep most people alive to breeding age, regardless of their fitness to live.
But damn Darwin finds a way.
People are stupider than the movie Idiocracy.
baby-totoros | 12 hours ago
Selfish and wrong. I know it’s not super common but if I’d declined that shot and something had happened to my kid because of it I’d have literally never forgiven myself.
llama_ | 12 hours ago
Fools
Babies will die
thenikolaka | 10 hours ago
Are antivaxxers celebrating?
Jack-Singer-999 | 4 hours ago
Charge them with neglect 🤬
moldoc64 | 4 hours ago
What I don't get is why they are going to a clinic to give birth if they don't believe doctors? Why don't they stay home after having done their research on how it has to be done. Or do they ask their neighbors ? I wonder who is qualified to answer their questions? No amount of diploma would do I guess. RFK maybe ?
iCliniq_official | 3 hours ago
It's understandable that new parents have questions about every intervention, but vitamin K is one newborn protection worth taking seriously. Babies are naturally born with very low vitamin K stores, and deficiency can cause sudden, sometimes life-threatening internal bleeding without warning. The injection is a simple, well-established way to prevent this.
MidnightDecent1034 | 3 hours ago
My wife is a pediatrician and sees this trend as well. Such a stupid choice to make.
mrshyphenate | 2 hours ago
I'm not fully against this, actually. My kids got it, but knowing now what I didn't know then I might have changed my mind on it. I'm not anti vaxx by any means. My kids are fully vaxxed and get COVID and flu every year. But my husband has Factor V Leiden, which is a blood clotting disorder. Because of that, he can't take anything with vitamin K in it because it's a clotting risk. Factor V is genetic, so my kids were both at risk of having inherited it from their dad, and we wouldn't know until appropriate blood tests are done. So just that shot could have potentially killed them or caused a big clot at least.
And with Factor V being relatively new discovery, most people don't even know they have it until they get a clot or a parent gets a clot, so no one really knows the risk to their kids yet. I think a better option is to keep the placenta attached longer so they receive all the blood from it they're supposed to, before cutting the cord. Less risk all around.
Beka_Cooper | an hour ago
Vitamin K does not cross the placenta in significant amounts, so delayed cord clamping does nothing to affect it. The fact it crosses poorly is why babies are low in K at birth. Duh.
Spreading fake "alternatives" like this is how we get this problem. I don't know what the best thing for Factor V would be, but pretending delayed cord clamping covers the problem is dangerous for all babies, including yours.
mrshyphenate | an hour ago
You're taking one risk for another. My kids got their K shots but at the time I had no idea the risk I was putting them in for clots. My father in law died as a result of a clot caused by Factor V, and I unknowingly put my kids at major risk of a clot. Far more of a risk of a clot for them than a bleeding risk. And that's a fucking fact
jimmyjoyce | 52 minutes ago
But that just means that you have a responsibility to use your risk profile to make an informed decision. I hear what you’re saying completely that your kids were at risk. But your edge case is not the norm, and it cannot be used in good faith as a justification for the -general- refusal of the vitamin K shot. Just like with rare vaccine side effects and how this cannot be a reason to be anti vax even if there is SOME amount of risk.
mrshyphenate | 44 minutes ago
I don't disagree, but there also needs to be some sort of test for this before. Maybe start testing parents before baby is born to see if there's Factor V risk present. It just seems nuts to me to trade one risk for another
Beka_Cooper | 36 minutes ago
Yes, testing for Factor V beforehand is a great idea. Attempting to treat vitamin K deficiency using delayed cord clamping IS NOT a good idea because it doesn't address the issue. Kids with Factor V would probably need a different, VALID treatment.
I am 100% in support of delayed cord clamping, by the way. I requested it for my kids but was denied due to C-section-related issues. It's good for babies for many reasons. I just don't expect it to cure issues it doesn't cure.
Alone_Proposal5140 | 2 hours ago
Maybe china is on to something. No degree, no medical advice on social media. Also a lot of ppl are refusing births at hospital dt costs in America. And some are refusing it because Europe uses vit k drops instead of the shots but that’s like over 6 weeks and they have hospital sourced oral options not crap from Amazon/ebay and home nurse visitors that monitor the vit k etc.
zebracakesfordays | 11 minutes ago
Can’t imagine cooking a baby for 9 months just to deny them a vitamin that could keep them from dying after birth.
dylblues | 5 minutes ago
We give our 5 month old the recommended set of vaccines. It seems like quite a normal course, but every time we come in for an immunization the doc is like “Ah, hooray my science parents!” Really gives me some perspective. How much does he have to struggle to convince the other parents to use modern medical technology? Vaccines are about as amazing of an invention as humans have ever come up with, especially new ones like infant RSV vaccine. Do you want a healthy kid or not?
Weedster009 | 20 hours ago
Play stupid games, win, stupid prizes. Unfortunately, the prize in this situation is a dead baby. Heartbreaking.
WebbityWebbs | 18 hours ago
This should be considered child abuse. If this caused a newborn to die, the parents should be charged with negligent homicide. Parent's should not be allowed to use their ignorance as an excuse to kill babies.
spaceaige | 18 hours ago
RFK Jr needs to be locked up
Important_Rub_3479 | 17 hours ago
At least it’s not contagious. Still selfish as fuck.
jkraige | 12 hours ago
No. They're limiting their bad choices to their own children, but I still feel bad for those kids, man. They don't deserve that shit
jjcnoles8 | 16 hours ago
More parents are stupid
plattner-da | 15 hours ago
All because of captain brainworm.
That's who they listen to, not the doctors.
Iron_Baron | 20 hours ago
I'm not sad a lot of these nut jobs will lose their kids, they don't deserve to be parents. It's a shame the children must suffer and die, due to their parents cultish ignorance. But most of those kids would grow up in nightmares and be broken by the insanity of their parents. It's better IMO for them to be spared that.
BackInTimeForTea | 18 hours ago
Did the study account for parents choosing to give vit k orally rather than a shot? This is what we chose for our kids, it's just as effective but less painful / stressful for baby, but under these study rules would we have been classed as decliners?
theenterprise9876 | 13 hours ago
That’s not true. Oral vitamin K is demonstrably worse at preventing fatal brain bleeding (which is a horrible, painful, and very stressful way to die) than IM vitamin K.
wozattacks | 17 hours ago
I truly do not understand why people bring children into the world if they think the 1-second pain of an injection is so awful. If you can’t handle that you NEED to get help as soon as possible to learn to cope with your child’s distress.
Before people become parents they need to confront the fact that at some point, something bad will happen to their child. Not “getting a shot” bad. Actually, seriously bad. And you hope it’s not one of the worst things and you take the precautions that are reasonable to prevent it from being one of the worst things. Many of those precautions ARE shots.
Oral vitamin K is NOT as effective as the shot, at all. If you chose to become a parent when you can’t handle supporting your child through literally one second of discomfort I’m begging you, for your child’s sake, to find a way to develop the fortitude that you need to be a parent that can support your child through the actual, serious challenges they will face in this life. Children deserve parents that have that and they deserve parents who believe in them. Because truthfully, so many parents put their kids at risk because they cannot handle their own discomfort at seeing their child briefly in pain and it is so disheartening.
According-Sir3777 | 16 hours ago
AI slop
BackInTimeForTea | 17 hours ago
Okie... My kids are grown now but thank you.
Easy_Student4700 | 15 hours ago
Get over yourself.
leeann0923 | 15 hours ago
Oral is not nearly as effective compared to the injection. So it’s not an equal choice, it’s proven to be less. Getting an injection in a newborn is a non issue. It’s over in a second. Dying of a hemorrhage would be significantly worse.
BackInTimeForTea | 14 hours ago
Right. I'm just saying that parents may be choosing a different way to give their babies vit k and this might not be reflected in this study.
theenterprise9876 | 13 hours ago
Okay but that’s not what you said…you said the oral form is “just as effective”, which is not the case.
BackInTimeForTea | 7 hours ago
The odds of hemmorage are low anyway and with any form of vit k they fall to negligible. As parents we make riskier choices every day. You need to be going after the parents who didn't give their kids any vit k. Not sure why people are so invested in a low risk choice I made years ago.
leeann0923 | 14 hours ago
But making a choice against science isn’t making a good choice. Assuming you know more than doctors and scientists and making a subpar choice is still not following recommendations. I don’t know how that’s better? It’s still a wrong choice and not equivalent.
BackInTimeForTea | 14 hours ago
I go by what my doctor recommends, and they were more than happy with us using oral vit k. They said it wasn't an unusual request and provided we followed all timing instructions (which we did) oral vit k is very effective. Beyond this, my kids received their entire vaccination schedule. I promise you, you really don't have to worry any further - but thank you for your concern 🩷
jkraige | 12 hours ago
So did your doctors recommend oral vit k, or did you ask and they acquiesced so your baby was at least getting something? Because I'm betting it was the latter given than the shot is more effective
BackInTimeForTea | 7 hours ago
I don't understand why you're so invested in a choice a stranger made for their own kids with zero consequences, years ago. The chance of hemorrhage is low anyway, the chance with any form of vit k is practically non existent. As parents we weigh up decisions every minute of the day. I looked at the odds and considered this a good choice. Do you harass other parents over their choices in this manner, and if so do you find this is a good strategy?
jkraige | 7 hours ago
One reply on Reddit is not what any normal person would consider any level of investment, nor was my comment harassing you.
I notice you didn't answer the question though...
BackInTimeForTea | 6 hours ago
Ah sorry I assumed you were the other commenter. They recommended vit k and asked if we wanted to do it with a shot or orally.
DownUp-LeftRight | 15 hours ago
Vit K eyedrops work too.
dantevonlocke | 8 hours ago
They don't, but keep up with the ignorance.
Impressive_Hold426 | 11 hours ago
For thousands of years no one had a vitamin k shot.
No one needs a vitamin k shot.
Thousands of healthy people are fine today with no vitamin k shot.
So sorry. No reason at all...theres no reason for a healthy newborn to be bleeding to begin with.
courtneyrachh | 8 hours ago
….. ok but babies also survived for thousands of years without vaccines, antibiotics, blood transfusions, or C-sections. that doesn't mean those interventions aren't beneficial or life saving. the fact that something didn't exist historically isn't evidence that it isn't necessary now. modern medicine continues to evolve.
dantevonlocke | 8 hours ago
Go to an old cemetery and look at all the Graves for children and infants. You ghoul.
FormerlyMauchChunk | 22 hours ago
Oh no, how did humans survive for millions of years before this vitamin?
drollia | 22 hours ago
A lot of them didn't. Why wouldn't you want to protect your kid? It's a vitamin shot.
FormerlyMauchChunk | 21 hours ago
Protect from what? Are babies born defective?
downwardchip | 21 hours ago
Frequently, yes, in a medical sense. Infant life is fragile and difficult to sustain.
FormerlyMauchChunk | 19 hours ago
False. Birth is not a medical situation except in the rare instance of complications.
SoFreezingRN | 13 hours ago
Lmao if that were the case, I wouldn’t have a job
Zachwardpass | 20 hours ago
They are born with lowered clotting abilities that can and sometimes do lead to bleeding inside the brain. Not all babies will have bleeding, but an injection of a very nomal vitamin prevents it from happening altogether.
Not every child dies without wearing a seatbelt, but the incidence of them dying goes up significantly. Do you not seat belt your children in the car?
FormerlyMauchChunk | 19 hours ago
Seatbelt arguments for medical intervention are a red herring and invalid.
All mammals are born with low Vitamin K - there's a reason for this.
SoFreezingRN | 17 hours ago
Ruminants don’t need dietary vitamin k because the bacteria in their rumens make it. Other species get it from eating their own shit. That sounds so much better than a simple injection 🙄
FormerlyMauchChunk | 16 hours ago
When the baby is born, blood is pumped all over the body to new places - it's important that it doesn't clot. Vitamin K is low at birth for a reason, and shortly resolves itself in nearly all cases. Complication of this kind is rare, and applying medical intervention prophylactically to healthy babies is a racket.
SoFreezingRN | 16 hours ago
Blood is already being pumped throughout the baby’s body before birth. Did you think the baby is like…empty?
bunrakoo | 22 hours ago
Go to any cemetery. See all the baby graves there from before 1950? Then, hardly any. That's when people started vaccinating their kids. If you are unsure, the answer is, literally, written in stone.
FormerlyMauchChunk | 21 hours ago
Vitamin K is not a vaccine. You've changed the subject.
NorthernSpankMonkey | 22 hours ago
With perinatal care(including vaccines), the infant mortality rate went from 10% to 0,1%.
FormerlyMauchChunk | 21 hours ago
Vitamin K is not a vaccine.
NorthernSpankMonkey | 21 hours ago
I know but it is included under "Perinatal care"
Edit: to answer more bluntly to your original question, lots of infants died before they gave the Vit K shot
FormerlyMauchChunk | 18 hours ago
The rate of infant mortality was more affected by clean water, sanitation, sewage treatment, and garbage collection than it was by vaccines or Vitamin K. This is well documented.
ChrisRiley_42 | 21 hours ago
They lived to the ripe old age of "Died in childbirth"...
Vitamin K stats for you.
Before Vitamin K shots, the rates of vitamin K deficiency related bleeding in infants was 10.5 per 100K in Japan, 7.2 in Germany, and 4.4 in the UK. After the adoption of Vitamin K, those figures were 2.8 in Japan, 0.25 in Germany, and 0 in the UK
The mortality rate in affected infants is about 9%.
Sankar MJ et al. (2016). Vitamin K prophylaxis for prevention of vitamin K deficiency bleeding: a systematic review.
FormerlyMauchChunk | 18 hours ago
So even if it happens, the child has a 91% chance of survival. Interesting.
ChrisRiley_42 | 14 hours ago
So, you are ok with thousands of children dying unnecessarily.. Interesting.
dsj79 | 22 hours ago
Thank you for your brilliant advice miss mccarthy
FormerlyMauchChunk | 21 hours ago
It was a question. Do you have an answer?
icouldntdecide | 21 hours ago
Go away troll
FormerlyMauchChunk | 18 hours ago
How am I trolling? Who is Miss McCarthy?
Haunt_Fox | 22 hours ago
Many didn't.
It's part of the reason infant death rates were so high.
FormerlyMauchChunk | 21 hours ago
The headline says risk of bleeding out is high right now for every infant who doesn't take this vitamin.
Are babies born defective?
wozattacks | 21 hours ago
Babies are born vulnerable, and their parents are supposed to protect and care for them. Some parents fail at that.
Zachwardpass | 20 hours ago
See my former comment, or just do a cursory search for the answer. It is common medical knowledge. Babies are born with decreased clotting factors (which is what vitamin K helps with) that increase their incidence of intracranial bleeding leading to disability or death.
FormerlyMauchChunk | 18 hours ago
There's a reason for this. It's not a defect. This condition is shared among all mammals.
wozattacks | 17 hours ago
Why do you think it matters whether we label it as a defect? It can cause serious injuries and death. You can decide what you wanna call it but we have a way to prevent those things. Whether you feel god can make mistakes or not does not matter when your child dies.
FormerlyMauchChunk | 16 hours ago
If I said this happens in 1 out of 10,000 babies, you might be nervous and think it could happen to you. If I said 99.99% of babies don't need this, you'd ignore this vitamin injection. It's a matter of always favoring medical intervention for all instead of allowing that sometimes there is no need.
I'm opposed to blanket application of prophylactic medicine in healthy people.
"if you don't take it your baby will die" is scaremongering and has no place in medical communication.
cinderparty | 8 hours ago
Needing medical intervention doesn’t make someone defective.
dantevonlocke | 7 hours ago
Seems like you were.
hurrdurrmeh | 22 hours ago
infant mortality was insanely high premodernity. that is one reason for both the extremely high sex drive of our species and of course the creation of religion (to accommodate the tragic feelings of infant death).
FormerlyMauchChunk | 21 hours ago
And all of that ended with Vitamin K?
CherryTearDrops | 19 hours ago
For the ones that would have died due to a lack of vitamin k yeah.
FormerlyMauchChunk | 18 hours ago
Nobody has ever died from lack of Vitamin K.
cinderparty | 9 hours ago
There are reasons for why infant mortality rates are so much lower now.