The thing I unexpectedly like most about using Waymo is not having a stranger inserted into your conversation.
Every time I've taken a taxi in a group, the conversation ends when we get in and the driver is suddenly a part of our conversation. It's weird to have them sit there listening to your discussion but not participating, and it would be weird for them to participate. Inevitably the conversation turns to the mundane, questions about whether it's a busy day, how often do you drive in this part of town, etc.
I got a Waymo with friends and the conversation never missed a beat as we got into the car, rode for 15 minutes, and got out.
Yeah, now some future LLM from Google is a partner in your conversation, lol.
"This call may be monitored or recorded for quality assurance and training purposes, and for future llm training"
They make it quite clear in Waymos that nothing/no one is listening until you call them or they have a safety need to interrupt. I've never experienced that, but from those I've spoken to that have, apparently it's very immediately obvious, as it should be, and rare.
Just wait until someone installs a listening device somewhere in the cab. Doesn’t need to be Waymo doing the listening. Target Waymos that operate around financially important areas like tech and finance companies and profit.
True. But less likely to be able to deploy at scale. Waymo cleaners I’m guessing will be far less likely than drivers to care about keeping their cab super clean and noticing these things.
Plus as per this article, the rider is way less likely to talk important business in front of the driver - hence Waymo being ideal.
They do record video though, so you'd have to figure out a way to install it such that you aren't suspected of installing it. Plus how do you get it back? You could put in something with a cell modem, but then how do you power it more. There are USB ports tho, so you could ride in the front seat and make it look like a charging cable or battery that you just forgot, but really it's a listening device with a cell modem. For all that effort, you'd want some serious ROI and youd want to do some math on the chances you get something actionable that isn't going to get you investigated by the SEC anyway, and then further, you can't do it a bunch of times because that's really how you get caught. Nah, better to actually get employed by a company, and the higher up you go, the bigger the crimes you can commit!
They also made it quite clear that their AI speaker thingy’s microphone was physically disconnected when the switch was off. Turned out the switch only physically disconnected the ‘mic active’ LED.
It’s not clear the circumstances that they do record and monitor, but they definitely do monitor sometimes. They’ve reported crimes that happen in the Waymos, like this incident where they reported some teenagers that had an illegal firearm: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49672549
That same story mentions another instance where some kids had alcohol and toy guns. So maybe there is AI that detects firearms? And then a human intervenes? Its not very clear.
recording conversations can be eavesdropping very easily in all party consent states but there aren't generally laws against secretly video recording people (besides in specific intimate situations like bathrooms).
no they have a call center like setup where workers monitor the cars and make adjustments when the cars make stupid decisions, but they're monitoring inside the cars all the time. I could tell you how I know but then I'd have to.. you know
Yes...given the spotless record of these sorts of companies in zealously guarding our privacy it would be unthinkable that Waymos is listening in to our conversations. /s
Absolutely! Or even just be alone with your thoughts.
I always felt weird alone in a taxi – having someone serve you that directly in that way, particularly if you're sitting in the back seat, just feels a little uncomfortable. But in a Waymo it's just me.
no, it's not, there's an operator watching and listening to you on a camera and with microphones. potentially redirecting your car to wherever the authorities want you, based on what you say, how you look, or whatever. you're not alone at all. it's the illusion of solitude while actually being less alone than in a taxi. the difference is only that you are not faced with interacting with the service worker. it is isolation without privacy.
and you should interact with the driver. it's good for you and cabbies are full of stories. and it's important not to forget about others labor. the labor still happens with waymo; the autonomous nature is half baked and you are absolutely still being watched, listened to, and served directly.
face your privilege directly. take a normal cab. this whole thread reeks of classism from out of touch tech workers in SF
My last couple of human driven rideshares, I didn’t have to worry about that because the driver was engrossed in his own phone conversation the whole ride. Not sure what’s worse.
> For anyone of an immigrant background, the question of who they are talking to is absolutely no mystery. They are talking to us; their siblings, parents, cousins and friends. Sometimes the person on the end of the line is back home, other times they are in a western city also navigating the dislocations of immigrant life. The long phone call is a regular feature of diaspora lives, and even more so for those employed in long, solitary work such as cab driving.
Absolutely fascinating article! So neat to have such a very specific question I Always Wanted To Ask and lo and behold someone actually did the asking and published a plausible explanation. I guess I’m not the only person witnessing and confused by this behavior!
it'll just drive you to the detention center. yeah let's give Trump and Musk and their friends the ability to autonomously use facial recognition on the cameras in the vehicle to identify individuals wanted by the state and to transport political prisoners directly to prison.
maybe they'll even ban human controlled cars, because they're more dangerous after all. you don't need to control your own destination. you have nothing to hide. right?
I've used it quite a bit since moving to the Bay at the start of the year. They take good care of the buses and trains, things are on time or reasonably close to it. I have no complaints.
It's a downside of public transport too. Possibly my reason for being sensitive to this though is that I almost exclusively use public transport, getting a taxi is relatively rare for me, and I don't own a car.
Yes the "lack of a human" is a feature. That said I've learned many things from talking to Uber drivers in various parts of the world (and in the US from Uber drivers from various parts of the world) so YMMV.
Waymo has been ahead of the competition for a long time. It’s why Elon musk donates to GOP. He can’t win and jump through regulatory hurdles. He is and always has been so far behind the curve he is going even anything even if it’s criminal. (Which it is). Not shocking the first thing DOGE did was go after self driving regulatory bodies investigating his marketing terms and deadly crashes.
Are you too young to have never been in a yellow cab? A strange take... engage, don't, the driver is just making a living, they'd rather be left alone ... put your AirPods on.
I used Waymo several times while in Nashville this summer. Fantastic experience. I'll choose Waymo over a human-driven vehicle everytime I have the choice.
I don't use Waymo anymore because it has decided that my street is busy (it isn't) and so picks up at the parking lot across the street from me instead. Which is disappointing. (This is despite filing multiple feedback reports for the issue.)
A family member lives on a street where a Waymo likes to park while waiting on the next ride. Initially we joked that "the Waymo is taking a cigarette break" but seeing it there led to the family using them quite often. It would never let us just walk down to its cigarette spot though -- always needed to stub out its light then drive down a narrow back alley behind the building where nobody would suspect it would decide to do its pickup.
It continues to bewilder me how wildly different some people's experiences with Waymo are than mine.
My very first time getting a Waymo, as soon as it got going it immediately tried to make a left turn out of a right lane. Then it decided to go 15mph down a 3-lane wide road with a 45mph speed limit for several miles. No warning beeps or anything, it just decided to do that for some reason.
I waited a few months before trying it again. This time I took it to the airport. It worked great... until it got to the airport and caused a traffic jam because it couldn't figure out how to complete a lane change in traffic. Embarrassing, for me and the car.
Waymo is bound to capture the imaginations of people who haven't seen these things before. They certainly made me smile the first time I saw one at the beginning of this year. But god help you if you actually use one.
Balancing data set: I've been in many Waymo in Los Angeles and never had them do anything like this. Since you mentioned going to the airport presumably this was in Phoenix or San Antonio? Seems like the traffic on those places would be sub-LA level of difficult to navigate.
The ones in LA just get stuck behind things because LA loves its park anywhere you want anarchy.
But also the Waymos use alleys, driveways, and private parking lots that they're really not supposed to.
Always a bit embarrassing when the Waymo decides to use a space that's not meant for public use for pickup/dropoffs. One time, mine waited for me in/blocking a fast food drive-thru lane.
In LA they make very subtle traffic infractions. For example, turning right onto the left lane of a two-lane road. But a third of human drivers probably don't know that it's not allowed and another third intentionally violate it.
On my commute home there is always a street that has 5-6 Waymos trying to turn left from the middle lane because they could not successfully change lanes. Blocks traffic every single day without fail. Probably been like this for 5-6 months.
I read "could not successfully change lanes" as "were blocked from changing lanes by human drivers that either didn't notice the attempt or intentionally ignored it". I don't know where you are, but this is a complaint that I have about driving in the SF Bay Area as a human driver: people here just don't let you into their lane.
In Austin, I've never been in one but I constantly see them making weird decisions and once, it was a red on left turn a waymo ahead of me and me behind it the turn left turned green it didnt move light turned red, next time it turned green it moved. I really think they're safe cause they have learned to do what others do in front of them and when they have to make their own decisions everything falls apart. I do hope it gets better a little faster.
This approximately lines up with my experiences with them in SV. Most of the time they drive so conservatively as to be a nuisance to surrounding traffic, and then occasionally one turns left from the wrong lane. Or makes an obviously dumb u-turn or something.
I feel like the article is trying really hard to be cynical about one of the few technologies that is just totally an improvement in my life. I don't even really ride cabs very often (basically the airport is the only place and Waymos don't go there). But I do bike and bus into work and frankly the Waymos are just considerate to bicycles and pedestrians. I never have a sense of danger in the crosswalk with them. No risk of getting cut off. None of the borderline psychotic behavior I have personally seen from motorists. The author of the piece even admits that she totaled a car. Which is not exactly uncommon since cars are dangerous. The upsides just so heavily outweigh the bad here.
Interesting. We don't have Waymo in my city, but we sure do have a lot of Uber drivers who can be relied upon to unleash a fusillade of angry honking when the car in front of them chooses obey traffic laws regarding pedestrians in the crosswalk.
If someone honks at me for obeying traffic rules, you better believe I'm going to be extra, super fastidious about obeying traffic rules while I'm in front of them.
>I feel like the article is trying really hard to be cynical
I don't feel this way at all. I think you are reading it through the lens of your own personal feelings about Waymo.
I think the article is trying really hard to present a mix of positives and negatives, a "balanced" perspective. Things like talking about how some women feel safer without having to worry about a driver (positive), yet sharing a story of a woman who felt less safe from her fellow passenger because there was no driver (negative). Mentioning the story of the cat that was killed in SF (negative), but also mentioning that human drivers kill a great deal of cats too (positive, in a sense). And so on.
This is kind of a classic misinformation pattern to present contrasting view points side by side as if they are an order of magnitude as common. similar thing used to happen in climate change discussions where an actual scientist would be expected to debate some random guy under the pretense of neutrality. The article goes out of its way to claim that statistics can’t really capture the lived experience (which they don’t even bother to include any actual figures as some kind of insult to their reader’s intelligence). I personally had a cat killed by a human driven car (20 years ago but why not). I personally have been hit by human driven cars (before Waymo existed but still happened). Both incidents are on the rare side. Cars are fundamentally dangerous. But we could pull up the actual vehicle-mile statistics and make a honest comparison instead of going round and round about opinions.
I remember riding in one in SF and while it was at the curb about to merge into traffic it saw a bike coming from down the block on our side and patiently waited long enough for them to pass.
On the other hand, I've had times while walking my dog across the street or through my apartment driveway and waymo's don't really slow down and do more of a faster pass right by us than I'd prefer, especially because a dog, like a child, can be pretty unpredictable.
they still can't do highways???? this thread and people I've talked to who were big fan boys did not bother to mention that and made it sound like the driving problem was essentially fully solved
now I better understand how the operators keep up with giving the cars directions from the command center, because they are semi-autonomous R/C cars that simply don't go fast enough that their handlers get overwhelmed directing a couple of them.
I think it varies by location. I think they can in SF and other cities where they’ve been around a while.
They can’t do highways where I am, but they only started doing public Waymos here this year, so it’s quite recent.
And while I haven’t seen any self-driving Waymos on the highways, I have seen Waymo scanning vehicles with spinning lidar things and a human driver on the highways.
I am now so Waymo-pilled that if all crossing directions are oncoming Waymos I will simply cross between them, regardless of their green signals. Works in SF; may not apply in your locale.
You can tell that this piece is written by someone who visited San Francisco to sit in a Waymo and then extrapolated how weird it must be for people who see them every day. In reality after the initial shock wears off these cars are just a normal, boring part of the road. Seeing them drive around town is the same as seeing any other kind of taxi. I find that the strongest opinions about Waymos come from people who live in cities where they don't operate.
I wish I could be excited about Waymos, but knowing how these things go, I have a strong feeling this will turn into something dystopian. My guess is a future where cars are much more expensive and you never get to actually own them. Couldn’t we just invest in better public transit and make it harder to get and keep a drivers license?
Waymo does a full stop before making a right turn. I hate how people make blind right turns even though it is the pedestrian's right-of-way. The auto industry has a firm hold on US/Canada such that we will never have a city design that encourages being car-free. But Waymos do follow the city driving rules much better than fallible humans.
As a tourist in SF about two weeks ago I experienced a bit of superhuman driving from a Waymo. On one of these 30-degree downhill slopes, a long truck was stopped in the middle of the road and to its right and slightly ahead was a parked car. The space between these two was just about right so that a 45-degree-turned Waymo car would barely fit with less than an inch space on either side. This is exactly what it did, without much hesitation. As a human driver, I would have stopped, tried to squeeze back up and find another way, or stop and try to locate the truck driver and ask them to move.
I just love getting a full body lidar scan by a random corporation while I’m walking down the sidewalk in my neighborhood!
I can’t possibly imagine any bad stuff happening as a result of petabytes of frequent high resolution data being constantly captured in our communities!
Definitely no privacy concerns there, we love IoT connected sensors on all our vehicles! It’s not like anyone has ever used these incidental surveillance systems to target critical infrastructure or assassinate targets before, that would be crazy making.
Anyway, I’m glad that Waymo constantly surveils it’s occupants too and snitches to the cops, that’s super chill.
My takeaway from the article is that there’s safety accidents, and then there’s plain old bad driving that didn’t hurt anyone. Waymo probably still needs work to achieve the highest driving skills comparable to the best human drivers. But it’s already safer than the average human.
The first time I rode in a Waymo, I noticed that it attempted to change lanes and cancel lane changes way too often. Not exactly unsafe, but I wouldn’t call that good driving.
danpalmer | 19 hours ago
misterflibble | 19 hours ago
dang | 18 hours ago
danpalmer | 19 hours ago
Every time I've taken a taxi in a group, the conversation ends when we get in and the driver is suddenly a part of our conversation. It's weird to have them sit there listening to your discussion but not participating, and it would be weird for them to participate. Inevitably the conversation turns to the mundane, questions about whether it's a busy day, how often do you drive in this part of town, etc.
I got a Waymo with friends and the conversation never missed a beat as we got into the car, rode for 15 minutes, and got out.
vardalab | 19 hours ago
danpalmer | 19 hours ago
yardstick | 19 hours ago
smegma2 | 19 hours ago
taneq | 19 hours ago
yardstick | 19 hours ago
Plus as per this article, the rider is way less likely to talk important business in front of the driver - hence Waymo being ideal.
solyin | 19 hours ago
Sounds like something out of Billions.
taneq | 19 hours ago
snailmailman | 19 hours ago
That same story mentions another instance where some kids had alcohol and toy guns. So maybe there is AI that detects firearms? And then a human intervenes? Its not very clear.
wilg | 19 hours ago
drivers99 | 19 hours ago
voxic11 | 18 hours ago
mckfkfkfj | 17 hours ago
kjs3 | 19 hours ago
ivantop | 19 hours ago
kjs3 | 18 hours ago
taneq | 19 hours ago
Then again I recently told a friend of mine to stop saying mean things about China because it might offend my car, soooo…
wilg | 19 hours ago
danpalmer | 19 hours ago
I always felt weird alone in a taxi – having someone serve you that directly in that way, particularly if you're sitting in the back seat, just feels a little uncomfortable. But in a Waymo it's just me.
hffthbcfg | 17 hours ago
and you should interact with the driver. it's good for you and cabbies are full of stories. and it's important not to forget about others labor. the labor still happens with waymo; the autonomous nature is half baked and you are absolutely still being watched, listened to, and served directly.
face your privilege directly. take a normal cab. this whole thread reeks of classism from out of touch tech workers in SF
tziporahdagwood | 19 hours ago
PessimalDecimal | 19 hours ago
ryandrake | 19 hours ago
eclipticplane | 19 hours ago
simonw | 19 hours ago
> For anyone of an immigrant background, the question of who they are talking to is absolutely no mystery. They are talking to us; their siblings, parents, cousins and friends. Sometimes the person on the end of the line is back home, other times they are in a western city also navigating the dislocations of immigrant life. The long phone call is a regular feature of diaspora lives, and even more so for those employed in long, solitary work such as cab driving.
therein | 18 hours ago
ryandrake | 10 hours ago
NegativeLatency | 19 hours ago
echelon | 19 hours ago
I want high reliability driverless services we can rent for our own cars.
I want to fall asleep in the car with my family and dogs and wake up on the beach or in the mountains.
That'll be peak Americana.
pj_mukh | 19 hours ago
Signed, a certified Waymo lover.
hffthbcfg | 17 hours ago
maybe they'll even ban human controlled cars, because they're more dangerous after all. you don't need to control your own destination. you have nothing to hide. right?
binlog | 19 hours ago
ryukoposting | 17 hours ago
causesothere | 17 hours ago
danpalmer | 18 hours ago
dboreham | 19 hours ago
tdhz77 | 19 hours ago
stasomatic | 6 hours ago
7174n6 | 19 hours ago
solyin | 19 hours ago
dboreham | 19 hours ago
solyin | 19 hours ago
ryukoposting | 19 hours ago
My very first time getting a Waymo, as soon as it got going it immediately tried to make a left turn out of a right lane. Then it decided to go 15mph down a 3-lane wide road with a 45mph speed limit for several miles. No warning beeps or anything, it just decided to do that for some reason.
I waited a few months before trying it again. This time I took it to the airport. It worked great... until it got to the airport and caused a traffic jam because it couldn't figure out how to complete a lane change in traffic. Embarrassing, for me and the car.
Waymo is bound to capture the imaginations of people who haven't seen these things before. They certainly made me smile the first time I saw one at the beginning of this year. But god help you if you actually use one.
dboreham | 19 hours ago
ryukoposting | 18 hours ago
kenhwang | 18 hours ago
But also the Waymos use alleys, driveways, and private parking lots that they're really not supposed to.
Always a bit embarrassing when the Waymo decides to use a space that's not meant for public use for pickup/dropoffs. One time, mine waited for me in/blocking a fast food drive-thru lane.
cyberrock | 18 hours ago
ivantop | 18 hours ago
anateus | 4 hours ago
michelsedgh | 18 hours ago
ryukoposting | 18 hours ago
jasondigitized | 18 hours ago
blululu | 19 hours ago
bunderbunder | 18 hours ago
causesothere | 17 hours ago
fugaziboutit | 16 hours ago
alskdfqlkj | 18 hours ago
I don't feel this way at all. I think you are reading it through the lens of your own personal feelings about Waymo.
I think the article is trying really hard to present a mix of positives and negatives, a "balanced" perspective. Things like talking about how some women feel safer without having to worry about a driver (positive), yet sharing a story of a woman who felt less safe from her fellow passenger because there was no driver (negative). Mentioning the story of the cat that was killed in SF (negative), but also mentioning that human drivers kill a great deal of cats too (positive, in a sense). And so on.
blululu | 7 hours ago
spike021 | 18 hours ago
On the other hand, I've had times while walking my dog across the street or through my apartment driveway and waymo's don't really slow down and do more of a faster pass right by us than I'd prefer, especially because a dog, like a child, can be pretty unpredictable.
stasomatic | 6 hours ago
ex-aws-dude | 19 hours ago
Sometimes it will be like 45 minutes to go somewhere 15 min away because it won’t take any highways.
hffthbcfg | 17 hours ago
now I better understand how the operators keep up with giving the cars directions from the command center, because they are semi-autonomous R/C cars that simply don't go fast enough that their handlers get overwhelmed directing a couple of them.
ex-aws-dude | 5 hours ago
snailmailman | 2 hours ago
And while I haven’t seen any self-driving Waymos on the highways, I have seen Waymo scanning vehicles with spinning lidar things and a human driver on the highways.
dozerly | 19 hours ago
jeffbee | 19 hours ago
dozerly | 18 hours ago
zachwdc | 19 hours ago
This sums up a lot of what life is like these days alongside AI.
binlog | 19 hours ago
dkga | 19 hours ago
mrdependable | 18 hours ago
dabluecaboose | 17 hours ago
nisanthan | 17 hours ago
pama | 17 hours ago
CircuitSeuss | 16 hours ago
I can’t possibly imagine any bad stuff happening as a result of petabytes of frequent high resolution data being constantly captured in our communities!
Definitely no privacy concerns there, we love IoT connected sensors on all our vehicles! It’s not like anyone has ever used these incidental surveillance systems to target critical infrastructure or assassinate targets before, that would be crazy making. Anyway, I’m glad that Waymo constantly surveils it’s occupants too and snitches to the cops, that’s super chill.
kccqzy | 9 hours ago
The first time I rode in a Waymo, I noticed that it attempted to change lanes and cancel lane changes way too often. Not exactly unsafe, but I wouldn’t call that good driving.