Our black and white, binary, this-or-that obsession as a society is so visible in the kratom debates.
YES we can acknowledge it’s a problem, but then you have things like Massachusetts moving for a full ban, classifying it as a schedule 1 drug that no one can access.
Why are our options “buy it at a gas station checkout counter completely untested” or “it’s illegal to access period”?? Are we really THAT incapable of nuance anymore?
It's due to an inability to regulate effectively. Politicians will always take the path of least resistance when it comes to regulatory burden. This way they can tell their constituents they took action without having to actually write legislation that properly controls the sale of things like kratom. They don't want to risk angering businesses in any way due to the new requirements for sale, nor do they want to figure out how licenses work. Instead they just throw it onto the police to deal with instead
Schedule 1 means a drug has no medical benefit. Which is true for 7oh/kratom. There really isn't room for nuance with these because they can be wildly addictive and have harmful side effects. I know multiple people who report the withdrawals from them are worse than heroin/fentanyl.
The problem with complete bans is the creation of black markets and the void of substance in the community which are filled by other substances, which leads to worse outcomes by all objective measure.
Decriminalization is the answer, with regulated (heavily regulated) use and very close offering of medical therapy for substance abuse. This is complicated, though with the right attention it can be solvable.
Most pharmaceuticals have withdraws. This shouldn’t be a measure of if a substance is harmful or not. It’s all in that ramble in any pharma ad. Do not immediately cease administration. This goes with alcohol, adderal, benzos. You can die from withdrawing off 2 of those, but not from 7 or kratom. The issue is they aren’t prescribed and people are uneducated. It needs regulation.
The potential these substances have for pain treatment and OUD is massive. These are relatively safe compared to traditional opioids. They don’t kill you and side effects are almost non existent when taking a reasonable dose. They really can shake up the whole industry. But the big players will make billions of dollars off a ban. They have already patented a form of synthetics. Follow the money.
Sure, well regulated and limited to Kratom, no pure 7oh(due to highly addictive nature), to ensure no harmful additives that are currently causing major issues would be ideal. But that's not going to happen. Also not convinced that because people use it as an opiate substitute is a good argument for keeping it legal.
Also, your point on alcohol and benzo withdrawal is a false equivalency because no form of opiate (heroin, fent, Norco, percs etc) withdrawal is fatal.
I would also argue suboxone is significantly safer for treatment of oud compared to kratom/7oh due to the inclusion of nalaoxone, really don't understand the current utilization of subutex(just bup).
There are also plenty of people who report the side effects and withdrawals are not as bad. The reality is it is a cheaper, more accessible, and often less addictive pain killer that may have better long-term health outcomes than some of the legal and prescription alternatives.
More research needs to be done but a blanket ban out of ignorance is not the way forward for kratom or any substance.
John Oliver did a really good piece on this. It’s worth watching:
https://youtu.be/mRZqHzDG_c8
It’s really crazy that these things can be sold to the public when we have no idea what’s in them. Thank Senator Orin Hatch for this (he exempted supplements from FDA’s purview).
My brother had to get on Suboxone therapy to quit 7-OH. The stuff is as addictive as heroin. With him, it started when someone recommended he take it for his back pain. He’s been 7 free for about 6 months now, and is tapering off subs. Watching him writhe, shake, and vomit while he was in withdrawal was super scary, and he had only been off the drug for about 12 hours at that point. He was required to be off the drug for 24 hours before they would give him subs. Before that it was costing him hundreds of dollars a week, he would wake up in the middle of the night just so he could take more 7 to go back to sleep. 7 should be banned. Though, it has potential as an alternative for opiate addicts.
I had a similar experience coming off 7 but I went to detox and refused the subs. Coming off subs sounds like its own kind of hell so I wanted to avoid that. The comfort meds helped a lot with the nausea and anxiety. In the end I was out in 5 days and IOP was a godsend.
Sounds like 7-OH is the real problem, not unsynthesized kratom leaf powder.
Speaking from experience, kratom can absolutely be a useful alternative to opioids. I had a debilitating treatment-resistant herniated disc and the best treatment my insurance supported was “pain management” and a prescription for Vicodin, and a likely long term dependence.
I rejected that option, suffered for a time, then discovered kratom, which gave me my life back. Of course, like with all substances, moderation is key. Regular kratom being hard on the stomach makes for a pretty good regulator in my experience.
If you have substance abuse issues, probably steer clear unless coming off of opioids, but kratom should not be demonized as 7-OH definitely should, nor should the two be considered equal.
Kratom leaf powder is what renders me able to work day to day with my agonizing congenital joint defect. It's more effective than taking 800 mg Ibuprofens, and less harmful than taking Codeines or other prescription grade opiates. I have to go about my life just like everyone else, even when my hip joint tissue has gotten so irritated I can't stand up or walk. I wish everyone knew that average kratom users are just regular people like you and me, trying to stop hurting so we can have normal-ish lives.
> and less harmful than taking Codeines or other prescription grade opiates
Is it? If it's similarly addictive with similar built tolerance and similar withdrawal symptoms; is it not just substituting one opiate for another? It might reduce the potential for overdosing, but that doesn't mean it mitigates the problems with addiction. And it increases the risk of consuming harmful unlisted substances from a completely unregulated product.
Maybe kratom does offer some potential for harm reduction, but simply stating your experience with using it does not support that.
Fully agree. These are not the same thing at all. Kratom is a useful tool in overcoming or managing opioid dependency. We accept so many issues with Suboxone or other treatment options while ignoring a fantastic alternative. Hopefully the conversation over how drugs are perceived will shift over the next generation with the legalisation and medicalization of marijuana
Tyler's opioid addiction began in his early 20s, and when he decided he wanted to quit, he used kratom leaf powders to help ease withdrawal symptoms.
Tyler, now 38, told NPR he thinks kratom helped him stop using opioids for a decade.
In early 2025, he saw a new product at a gas station called 7-OH. He hadn't heard of 7-OH, but said the tablets were advertised as "kratom products." He decided to try them, since the kratom powders he'd taken in the past "can be hard on your stomach," he said.
At first, 7-OH gave him a feeling of euphoria he described as similar to opioids, which "felt like a kind of a miracle," he said.
Nearly a year and a half later, he was in a rapid detox program in Michigan, where he was sedated to sleep through the withdrawals he experienced when he tried to stop taking it.
In the past few years, highly concentrated products with 7-OH — sometimes alongside other semi-synthetic opioids — have popped up online, and at many smoke shops, liquor stores and gas stations. They can come in the form of tablets, gummies, tonics and chocolate.
7-OH, or 7-hydroxymitragynine, is one of the major psychoactive ingredients in kratom, which comes from a tree in the coffee family. It's naturally found in kratom in very small amounts, and seems to act more like an opioid in the human brain than kratom leaf products.
Kratom is used by some people with opioid addiction to maintain long-term recovery. Some people say it makes them feel energized or focused. Others describe the effects of kratom like those of opioids, and say it can relieve pain, feel calming or even create euphoria.
Some users of 7-OH and kratom show classic signs of addiction, researchers and policy officials say.
But the products are not always clearly labeled, so it's difficult or impossible for users to know what quantity of the substances they are consuming.
I ran a restaurant about a decade ago. One of my servers moved from Boston to town. Recovering heroin addict. He started using kratom before the shift in front of everybody. Explained how it was legal. How it was a wonder drug... Helped him with recovery, boosted his energy and mind functions.
Within 3 weeks everybody was doing it before their shift.
As somebody watching them, I tried to explain to them over and over that it was affecting their performance. I had a full staff of junkies. If they did a little bit, they would move around a little faster... But most of them would randomly have a night where they would hit a wall and become completely useless. By the end of the shift every night they were zombies dragging themselves around the restaurant. Out of eight people, there was going to be at least one of them just outright suck... Some nights over five.
They thought I was the bad guy, that I was crazy. They insisted that it was legal and there's no way you could buy detrimental stuff from a stranger in a strip mall, right?
Every single person I know who has used kratom has turned into something very similar to the junkies I knew in the aughts. I don't know if it's reasonable to look at it as harm reduction considering how harmful it seems to be, but I don't know how reasonable that perspective actually is - would regulation push more people away from this and similar products, or just push more people to heroin or some other opiates or similar highs?
So it's tough. I get it, I understand harm reduction. I saw how many people were helped greatly by methadone, but I also don't think a methadone bar would be a great idea, even if it was safe.
A guy I used to be pretty good friends with owns a kratom bar and he looks 20 years older than he should and all his posts look like MLM rabbithole posts.
This video on it was interesting after watching john oliver's segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLObpcBR2yw
I think banning Kratom powder itself would almost entirely just make people seek out even more dangerous alternatives. But I do think 7-OH and other high-potency Kratom extracts should be illegal to sell in gas stations and smoke shops.
Anecdotally, I know many people who've used Kratom or Kratom-based compounds, my childhood best friend died from a mixture of 7-OH and alcohol. But at the same time, I know several people who'd probably be dead if Kratom powder were illegal.
Kratom powder can be addictive, but it's not nearly as addictive as 7-OH and these synthetic forms of Kratom. I don't really know anyone who became a junkie on Kratom powder unless you consider anyone addicted to a substance to be a junkie. I view a junkie as someone who isn't functional/productive and causes damage to either their interpersonal relationships or physical health because of their addiction.
Kratom isn't very fun to abuse recreationally unless it's a high-potency extract or 7-OH. Taking super high dosages makes you feel extremely sick and nauseous. Can't really be the type of opioid addict who's nodding out constantly and ignoring responsibilities while on Kratom.
The other thing is, Kratom helps a lot of people with chronic pain who can't take prescription opioids (either because of side effects, tolerance or just because of shitty health insurance). Kratom can have less tolerance development for a lot of people, and it has multiple pharmacological mechanisms behind its analgesia. (So it's not just mu-opioid receptor agonism like other opioids, it also binds to A2-adrenergic receptors, certain serotonin receptors, nmda receptors, cox-2 and certain calcium channels, which all play a role in pain perception to a certain degree).
One thing is, I think there should be stricter age requirements on Kratom. Most online shops don't ID, your 12-year-old could literally buy a giant bag of it and send it to your house if they got ahold of the credit card.
Look at all the hit pieces out on Kratom and 7. Many of them stretch the truth to fit a narrative. Look at what happened with those 2 guys from ole miss. Complete fabrication of the truth, Kratom wasn’t even found at the site, but it was “Kratom, Kratom, kratom” for weeks.
Big pharma will make BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars off a ban. These substances, despite their addictive nature, have the potential to revolutionize pain treatment and how we treat opioid use disorder. They are multitudes safer than what is and has been peddled to the public. Fentanyl kills, kratom/7 doesn’t. It needs regulation and education.
Sketchy companies are already planning to put out whatever sketchy chemical they can to skirt a ban. They are already sending samples to vendors. Cats out of the bag, what will come after will be much worse. Hell, people will go back to street drugs which will cause fent ods to skyrocket again. We need to break our taboo that America has an opioid problem. These substances are revolutionary if we can come at them with a responsible, educated approach.
hce692 | 21 hours ago
Our black and white, binary, this-or-that obsession as a society is so visible in the kratom debates.
YES we can acknowledge it’s a problem, but then you have things like Massachusetts moving for a full ban, classifying it as a schedule 1 drug that no one can access.
Why are our options “buy it at a gas station checkout counter completely untested” or “it’s illegal to access period”?? Are we really THAT incapable of nuance anymore?
NonchalantR | 20 hours ago
It's due to an inability to regulate effectively. Politicians will always take the path of least resistance when it comes to regulatory burden. This way they can tell their constituents they took action without having to actually write legislation that properly controls the sale of things like kratom. They don't want to risk angering businesses in any way due to the new requirements for sale, nor do they want to figure out how licenses work. Instead they just throw it onto the police to deal with instead
guard19 | 9 hours ago
Schedule 1 means a drug has no medical benefit. Which is true for 7oh/kratom. There really isn't room for nuance with these because they can be wildly addictive and have harmful side effects. I know multiple people who report the withdrawals from them are worse than heroin/fentanyl.
shiftyeyedgoat | 7 hours ago
The problem with complete bans is the creation of black markets and the void of substance in the community which are filled by other substances, which leads to worse outcomes by all objective measure.
Decriminalization is the answer, with regulated (heavily regulated) use and very close offering of medical therapy for substance abuse. This is complicated, though with the right attention it can be solvable.
clean-links | 7 hours ago
Cleaned link from "worse outcomes": https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aba8857
Tracking parameters were removed from the original URL(s).
Ba-ja-ja | 3 hours ago
Most pharmaceuticals have withdraws. This shouldn’t be a measure of if a substance is harmful or not. It’s all in that ramble in any pharma ad. Do not immediately cease administration. This goes with alcohol, adderal, benzos. You can die from withdrawing off 2 of those, but not from 7 or kratom. The issue is they aren’t prescribed and people are uneducated. It needs regulation.
The potential these substances have for pain treatment and OUD is massive. These are relatively safe compared to traditional opioids. They don’t kill you and side effects are almost non existent when taking a reasonable dose. They really can shake up the whole industry. But the big players will make billions of dollars off a ban. They have already patented a form of synthetics. Follow the money.
guard19 | 3 hours ago
Sure, well regulated and limited to Kratom, no pure 7oh(due to highly addictive nature), to ensure no harmful additives that are currently causing major issues would be ideal. But that's not going to happen. Also not convinced that because people use it as an opiate substitute is a good argument for keeping it legal.
Also, your point on alcohol and benzo withdrawal is a false equivalency because no form of opiate (heroin, fent, Norco, percs etc) withdrawal is fatal.
I would also argue suboxone is significantly safer for treatment of oud compared to kratom/7oh due to the inclusion of nalaoxone, really don't understand the current utilization of subutex(just bup).
DanielDoh | 6 hours ago
There are also plenty of people who report the side effects and withdrawals are not as bad. The reality is it is a cheaper, more accessible, and often less addictive pain killer that may have better long-term health outcomes than some of the legal and prescription alternatives.
More research needs to be done but a blanket ban out of ignorance is not the way forward for kratom or any substance.
HonorableJudgeIto | 22 hours ago
John Oliver did a really good piece on this. It’s worth watching:
https://youtu.be/mRZqHzDG_c8
It’s really crazy that these things can be sold to the public when we have no idea what’s in them. Thank Senator Orin Hatch for this (he exempted supplements from FDA’s purview).
Checked_Out_6 | 20 hours ago
My brother had to get on Suboxone therapy to quit 7-OH. The stuff is as addictive as heroin. With him, it started when someone recommended he take it for his back pain. He’s been 7 free for about 6 months now, and is tapering off subs. Watching him writhe, shake, and vomit while he was in withdrawal was super scary, and he had only been off the drug for about 12 hours at that point. He was required to be off the drug for 24 hours before they would give him subs. Before that it was costing him hundreds of dollars a week, he would wake up in the middle of the night just so he could take more 7 to go back to sleep. 7 should be banned. Though, it has potential as an alternative for opiate addicts.
bakerfaceman | 8 hours ago
I had a similar experience coming off 7 but I went to detox and refused the subs. Coming off subs sounds like its own kind of hell so I wanted to avoid that. The comfort meds helped a lot with the nausea and anxiety. In the end I was out in 5 days and IOP was a godsend.
TwistyTwister3 | 9 hours ago
Tell him to get the sublacade 100 mg 1 month shot. No wd symptoms. Trying to taper of suboxone is hard af
comment-rinse | 20 hours ago
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Checked_Out_6 | 20 hours ago
You removed the first comment because I didn’t sign the rules, so I copied it. Come on!
FlamingoStink17 | 21 hours ago
Sounds like 7-OH is the real problem, not unsynthesized kratom leaf powder.
Speaking from experience, kratom can absolutely be a useful alternative to opioids. I had a debilitating treatment-resistant herniated disc and the best treatment my insurance supported was “pain management” and a prescription for Vicodin, and a likely long term dependence.
I rejected that option, suffered for a time, then discovered kratom, which gave me my life back. Of course, like with all substances, moderation is key. Regular kratom being hard on the stomach makes for a pretty good regulator in my experience.
If you have substance abuse issues, probably steer clear unless coming off of opioids, but kratom should not be demonized as 7-OH definitely should, nor should the two be considered equal.
m0nstera_deliciosa | 20 hours ago
Kratom leaf powder is what renders me able to work day to day with my agonizing congenital joint defect. It's more effective than taking 800 mg Ibuprofens, and less harmful than taking Codeines or other prescription grade opiates. I have to go about my life just like everyone else, even when my hip joint tissue has gotten so irritated I can't stand up or walk. I wish everyone knew that average kratom users are just regular people like you and me, trying to stop hurting so we can have normal-ish lives.
Gastronomicus | 7 hours ago
> and less harmful than taking Codeines or other prescription grade opiates
Is it? If it's similarly addictive with similar built tolerance and similar withdrawal symptoms; is it not just substituting one opiate for another? It might reduce the potential for overdosing, but that doesn't mean it mitigates the problems with addiction. And it increases the risk of consuming harmful unlisted substances from a completely unregulated product.
Maybe kratom does offer some potential for harm reduction, but simply stating your experience with using it does not support that.
TwoButtons30 | 21 hours ago
Fully agree. These are not the same thing at all. Kratom is a useful tool in overcoming or managing opioid dependency. We accept so many issues with Suboxone or other treatment options while ignoring a fantastic alternative. Hopefully the conversation over how drugs are perceived will shift over the next generation with the legalisation and medicalization of marijuana
Professional-Gear88 | 39 minutes ago
It’s not an alternative thought. It’s just an opioid. It’s like calling morphine an alternative to tramadol. It’s just another drug.
[OP] npr | 23 hours ago
Tyler's opioid addiction began in his early 20s, and when he decided he wanted to quit, he used kratom leaf powders to help ease withdrawal symptoms.
Tyler, now 38, told NPR he thinks kratom helped him stop using opioids for a decade.
In early 2025, he saw a new product at a gas station called 7-OH. He hadn't heard of 7-OH, but said the tablets were advertised as "kratom products." He decided to try them, since the kratom powders he'd taken in the past "can be hard on your stomach," he said.
At first, 7-OH gave him a feeling of euphoria he described as similar to opioids, which "felt like a kind of a miracle," he said.
Nearly a year and a half later, he was in a rapid detox program in Michigan, where he was sedated to sleep through the withdrawals he experienced when he tried to stop taking it.
In the past few years, highly concentrated products with 7-OH — sometimes alongside other semi-synthetic opioids — have popped up online, and at many smoke shops, liquor stores and gas stations. They can come in the form of tablets, gummies, tonics and chocolate.
7-OH, or 7-hydroxymitragynine, is one of the major psychoactive ingredients in kratom, which comes from a tree in the coffee family. It's naturally found in kratom in very small amounts, and seems to act more like an opioid in the human brain than kratom leaf products.
Kratom is used by some people with opioid addiction to maintain long-term recovery. Some people say it makes them feel energized or focused. Others describe the effects of kratom like those of opioids, and say it can relieve pain, feel calming or even create euphoria.
Some users of 7-OH and kratom show classic signs of addiction, researchers and policy officials say.
But the products are not always clearly labeled, so it's difficult or impossible for users to know what quantity of the substances they are consuming.
M0BBER | 13 hours ago
I ran a restaurant about a decade ago. One of my servers moved from Boston to town. Recovering heroin addict. He started using kratom before the shift in front of everybody. Explained how it was legal. How it was a wonder drug... Helped him with recovery, boosted his energy and mind functions.
Within 3 weeks everybody was doing it before their shift.
As somebody watching them, I tried to explain to them over and over that it was affecting their performance. I had a full staff of junkies. If they did a little bit, they would move around a little faster... But most of them would randomly have a night where they would hit a wall and become completely useless. By the end of the shift every night they were zombies dragging themselves around the restaurant. Out of eight people, there was going to be at least one of them just outright suck... Some nights over five.
They thought I was the bad guy, that I was crazy. They insisted that it was legal and there's no way you could buy detrimental stuff from a stranger in a strip mall, right?
hotfistdotcom | 19 hours ago
Every single person I know who has used kratom has turned into something very similar to the junkies I knew in the aughts. I don't know if it's reasonable to look at it as harm reduction considering how harmful it seems to be, but I don't know how reasonable that perspective actually is - would regulation push more people away from this and similar products, or just push more people to heroin or some other opiates or similar highs?
So it's tough. I get it, I understand harm reduction. I saw how many people were helped greatly by methadone, but I also don't think a methadone bar would be a great idea, even if it was safe.
A guy I used to be pretty good friends with owns a kratom bar and he looks 20 years older than he should and all his posts look like MLM rabbithole posts.
This video on it was interesting after watching john oliver's segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLObpcBR2yw
Objective_Animator52 | 15 hours ago
I think banning Kratom powder itself would almost entirely just make people seek out even more dangerous alternatives. But I do think 7-OH and other high-potency Kratom extracts should be illegal to sell in gas stations and smoke shops.
Anecdotally, I know many people who've used Kratom or Kratom-based compounds, my childhood best friend died from a mixture of 7-OH and alcohol. But at the same time, I know several people who'd probably be dead if Kratom powder were illegal.
Kratom powder can be addictive, but it's not nearly as addictive as 7-OH and these synthetic forms of Kratom. I don't really know anyone who became a junkie on Kratom powder unless you consider anyone addicted to a substance to be a junkie. I view a junkie as someone who isn't functional/productive and causes damage to either their interpersonal relationships or physical health because of their addiction.
Kratom isn't very fun to abuse recreationally unless it's a high-potency extract or 7-OH. Taking super high dosages makes you feel extremely sick and nauseous. Can't really be the type of opioid addict who's nodding out constantly and ignoring responsibilities while on Kratom.
The other thing is, Kratom helps a lot of people with chronic pain who can't take prescription opioids (either because of side effects, tolerance or just because of shitty health insurance). Kratom can have less tolerance development for a lot of people, and it has multiple pharmacological mechanisms behind its analgesia. (So it's not just mu-opioid receptor agonism like other opioids, it also binds to A2-adrenergic receptors, certain serotonin receptors, nmda receptors, cox-2 and certain calcium channels, which all play a role in pain perception to a certain degree).
One thing is, I think there should be stricter age requirements on Kratom. Most online shops don't ID, your 12-year-old could literally buy a giant bag of it and send it to your house if they got ahold of the credit card.
JooseTheGuice | 9 hours ago
Kratom doesn't and can't touch my breakthrough pain. 7 does. It deserves regulation and study, not fear-mongering and scheduling.
Ecliphon | 17 hours ago
Correlation doesn’t equal causation.
How many of those people were pain-free and drug-free and sought out gross ground kratom leaf to drink?
Ba-ja-ja | 3 hours ago
Look at all the hit pieces out on Kratom and 7. Many of them stretch the truth to fit a narrative. Look at what happened with those 2 guys from ole miss. Complete fabrication of the truth, Kratom wasn’t even found at the site, but it was “Kratom, Kratom, kratom” for weeks.
Big pharma will make BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars off a ban. These substances, despite their addictive nature, have the potential to revolutionize pain treatment and how we treat opioid use disorder. They are multitudes safer than what is and has been peddled to the public. Fentanyl kills, kratom/7 doesn’t. It needs regulation and education.
Sketchy companies are already planning to put out whatever sketchy chemical they can to skirt a ban. They are already sending samples to vendors. Cats out of the bag, what will come after will be much worse. Hell, people will go back to street drugs which will cause fent ods to skyrocket again. We need to break our taboo that America has an opioid problem. These substances are revolutionary if we can come at them with a responsible, educated approach.
enjoiYosi | 12 hours ago
A lot of 7OH products had synthetic additives. 7OH naturally is not nearly as bad as people claim.