That’s not my experience at all, as a European who frequently travels to the US for work. If anything, I’d say that restaurants in the US are slightly more expensive without tips, definitely more expensive with.
> I’d say that restaurants in the US are slightly more expensive without tips
That's entirely possible, but then again people make far more in the U.S., so the cost of living is generally higher. Taking that into account, I don't think the cost of eating out is higher than in Europe.
My experience is that European restaurants are cheaper and better. Especially in 2026 with the Trump inflation hellscape. Everything from McDonalds to local high end restaurants.
Certain commodities are even more shocking. You’ll get the best loaf of bread that you ever had. in France, Spain, or Italy for two euro. In most American cities, unless there happens to be a functional local bakery, you’re looking at a seven dollar defrosted loaf of bread at a supermarket that tastes like cardboard.
Having seen some examples online I am pretty certain that in most areas prices in my high cost of living country are not more expensive. And that is with 14% VAT and no tips.
Mainly because it makes you look like a tremendous douchebag and does immediate harm to real employees for an intangible cause that looks like grandstanding. I say this as a person who hates tipping but mechanically leaves 20%.
It's a collective action problem, a massive scale prisoner's dilemma where if everyone cooperated we could be in a better world but that just sweetens the social rewards for those who turn traitor and keep paying the tip. And if we collectively do not hit the "tipping point" and force employers to pay better then the employees just suffer. And in the mean time I enjoy a meal that is cheaper than the market can bear because the whole system is propped up by this system of cost misdirection that I have sidestepped. So I am getting an unfairly cheap meal.
Disagree; dancing like a chimp for some coin jangling in grandpas pocket is where this sense of obligation to earn money started for us as kids
Sensory memory reinforces our agency more than philosophy; we're replaying visual memory just like we were shown
All these startups need to jump yeh high raises hand to arbitrary height to get funding because of gramps old rules
Better keep line go up for old rich will financially engineer this economy right off a fiscal cliff! (Google simpsons fiscal cliff for context)
And more specifically to the "no one is worried..." you should get out more cause I encounter "we owe it to our elders to carry on their ways for all they did for us" type conclusions a whole lot
We could collectively action around less stupid jobs like knowledge work. We're well outside the post WW2 rebuild that fostered "endless growth" mentality in elders
84% in the US live <100 miles from their childhood home collectively acting just fine
I think a majority are capably collectively acting where they are; not sure where you see a deficiency there
I have no problem tipping for service. Tipping when I pay in advance and get no service beyond being handed my food — what exactly am I tipping for? I don’t think people are opposed to tipping in general, it’s just been applied to everything.
One time I was forced to pay a tip for self checkout at the Austin airport. I was in a rush for my flight, it prompted, and I could not find any way to opt out.
You are tipping because of an arrangement in America whereby you share the costs of table service with management. That arrangement was originally designed to solve a principal-agent problem, but it hardly matters whether that problem exists today.
Because Maria works so damn hard cleaning those hotel rooms, and if I take a stand on principle and don't leave her a tip when I check out, the only ones who will suffer for it are her and her kids. Should I instead write her a note about how we're helping society improve?
I don't think thats the problem. Moreso something like this that was intended to help people that needed it is being taken advantage of. Every cafe with $6 espressos will ask you for a tip nowadays. What's worse is that a lot of places default to adding a 15% tip when these screens show! And there is no way of knowing where these tips are going unless you pay cash.
Those are legally not gratuities in the US but a “service charge” if they are mandatory. The worst part is that you have no guarantee it is actually distributed to employees, and it is charged sales tax unlike gratuities.
It's literally one of the least racist possible names, having origins in Hebrew, then moving to Greek and Latin. You'll find 'Maria' as a name in most European languages, even non-Romance languages acquired it from Christianity.
Do you not work hard for your money? Do you not market your skills to the highest bidder? Why do you have agency but Maria can't be expected to?
Hotel cleaning staff are harder to find than you think. If Maria is made or broken based on your $2, she can find a job that pays better. You enabling her through a system of random rewards may actually hold her hostage in a bad situation.
No, she can’t. Cleaning staff ware not hard to find. Cleaning jobs for fair wages are. Our economy works because we negotiate the cheapest labor we can for the highest output. Tech isn’t even different. We give options to people in lieu of cash on the hopeful promise that we’re gonna blow up and be work silly money. When was the last time you worked an unskilled labor job?
I worked unskilled labor jobs for 8 years. Started out making $5.15/hr, got a new job every 9-12 months for a pay raise. Different types of jobs too. My last year I was making $27/hr, and that was 20 years ago.
The thing about unskilled labor jobs is that anyone can do them. The market is very fluid, but the wage is different based on the market, how laborious the job is, and how customer-service oriented you have to be. Reliability (showing up) and consistency (of work product) are your main assets in unskilled labor, and they are rewarded. The idea that you are stuck in a job and cannot move around, especially as a cleaning person, is false.
You could make that argument about virtually any service profession. Maria is very likely not subject to the tipped minimum wage. She probably gets paid market rate for cleaning services. And while that isn't extravagant, it's probably not a poverty wage either.
Additionally, if an employee is subject to the tipped minimum wage and fails to make the regular minimum wage over a pay period, the employer must make up the difference. That's why restaurant owners fight tooth and nail for tipping.
The reality is that tipping helps one person: the business owner. You don't have to subsidize their payroll if you don't want to.
> She probably gets paid market rate for cleaning services. And while that isn't extravagant, it's probably not a poverty wage either.
The median annual wage for a hotel cleaner in Ohio (as an arbitrary middle-of-the -road example) is $28.4K per year.[1] (And on average, immigrant workers earn 6% less than their native counterparts.) And in Ohio, the official annual household income poverty line--based on an outdated food-cost-heavy model that doesn't properly account for the explosion of housing and healthcare costs--is $27.3K for a three-person household.[2]
To me, that very much is a poverty wage. I agree that tipping is a subsidy to business owners and ultimately depresses wages at the expense of consumers, but that doesn't change the fact that under the status quo, tipped workers absolutely rely on their tips to provide for themselves and their families. The type of work they do is, by and large, grueling and thankless; they deserve fair compensation from the business that benefit from it, but in the absence of government-driven intervention, those business will continue to externalize that cost to workers and consumers regardless of whether you and a handful of others decide to tip.
Refusing to tip on principle results in a direct and tangible harm to those workers, but doesn't move the needle at societal scale. A true solution would require top-down overhaul of our wage-and-hour regulations to eliminate tipping loopholes and impose steep penalties for businesses that subsidize employee wages through the expectation of tips from customers. Any bottom-up approach is likely to fail as it's a prototypical collective action problem, and a patchwork implementation of that strategy would disproportionately harm those who can least afford to shoulder the burden for a long time before ever impacting the businesses and policies directly responsible for the current state of affairs.
It’s hard to stop because it means denying a dollar or two to a human in front of you who wants it and tried to earn it during your transaction. It’s not immoral, just less than ideal, so it’s endured.
It’s a Lose for the employees of the current system. You’re cheekily superiorly saving a few bucks on a cause that isn’t going to be helped by snubbing a servicing worker.
There are a few tip free restaurants around, it’s sort of rare. Tipping at basically every random shop is out of control nowadays tho.
I just hate corner stores and take out places expecting tips. I flat out refuse to do that. Please tip only for real service and sit down restaurants, thank you.
If you're rich enough to consider an extra 20% on a meal "marginal" then good for you. I am too, at this point in my life.
But we need to recognize that as a privilege. For most people (including me, ten years ago) that's absolutely not marginal. Most people are having to budget and count their money carefully even at amounts you are privileged do dismiss as having no relevance.
Having the privilege of wealth is fine, up to a point. Being so wrapped up in it that you don't recognize it as a privilege is not fine.
It's a tradition, it's how the system works, why would you change that.
That said, I feel like sometimes this is pushed with those tablets with tipping options that present 20% 30% and 35%. Especially in situations where you self serve by going up to the clerk, as a non american it feels like I'm being scammed by a tourist trap, I might press 30% out of feeling that it's customary, but then an American might know the actual rules and either tip 15%, or not tip at all since it isn't customary to tip for self service.
We should bring back the tradition of child marriage and cutting off hands for stealing a loaf of bread
...wtf kind of argument is "this how it been so it is how it will be"
This forum has no room to argue it's a different kind of place.
Now that software is a dead end career cause AI HN is the same old blue collar Main Street dogma and tribal gibberish of any old typical bulletin board
Second of all, this is a convention issue, like tabs vs spaces, it could be one way, it could be the other way, in that sense I don't see how arguing that it could be the other way is helpful.
Either restaurant bills can be higher, or they can be a tad lower and tip is soft mandatory. It doesn't make much difference which way it is, the end result is the same. There's problems if you come from other conventions, in the same way that your device might burn if it comes from EU and you don't have a transformer.
You have no authority over my emotions, entitled rando nobody; back off
Quit reading there.
I am off the hook for your food, shelter, healthcare in our culture.
Social media has people in their living room demanding others respect that; but we're at home or other personal context ... everyone is hosting so no one dictates house rules
Social web is dying cause everyone caught on its just a bunch of entitled Americans expecting the same treatment they would get in their cul de sac
Tips in America are not gratuities. Tips in America are wages. If you do not understand or accept that tips are wages, then you will not cooperate with tipping culture here.
Our federal administration recently decreed no tax on overtime, no tax on tips. This is a judicious move; although it unfortunately enshrines tipping even more firmly, it gives relief to the rank-and-file worker.
Generally, employees raking in cash tips always faced a tax-time dilemma: record and report all my tips from my job, and be taxed on them? Or just let it all slide under the table. Surely, nearly everyone does it. So, "no tax on tips" simply encourages you to report them without being docked for it.
Tipping culture is business-friendly. It gives business the opportunity to hire more workers for more hours, and simply offload the wages onto the customers. End-stage capitalism's finest hour.
As I mentioned earlier, tips in advance for services like food delivery? Those are bribes, not tips. They're also wages, but they're also bribes. It's fairly disgusting. I hate tipping. But I hate stiffing workers, and I personally enjoy a reputation as someone who cares about tipping people for services provided.
That being said, I encounter rampant “tip cheating” in my everyday life. In my state, there are businesses authorized to solicit tips, and the rest are not authorized to do so. However, a common sight on the countertop is a clear glass jar with cutesy decorations on it. They are not allowed to write “TIPS” on this jar, so you will see many creative turns of phrase. But, they are illicitly soliciting tips from you in the silence.
Ethical employees of ethical companies generally are discouraged from allowing customers to slip cash into their pockets. They do not want to get this kind of custom started when they are not authorized to accept gratuities. But it seems perfectly normalized to silently and passively solicit gifts from fake tip jars. The ubiquitous “take/leave a penny” tray is exactly the same low-grade tip cheating in convenience stores. So beware of this practice. If it is incorporated into their P.O.S. flow, I would expect it’s legitimate.
Found the USA-hater! No, it is not "corruption" when the IRS specifies non-taxable income. It is not "corruption" when workers are incentivized to report cash income! OMG it is the opposite!
It is obviously deeply ingrained corruption that cash tipping, and under-reporting, has been a national pastime for decades. In fact, as the "cash discount" policies increase nationwide, there will be more corruption at the till, with entire sales going unreported. However, since many Americans in 2026 are accustomed to cashless payments, cash tipping was on its way out, and it's really hard to falsify or under-report credit-card-based gratuities!
Now that the IRS specifies non-taxable gratuities, the workers have ample incentive to simply track and report it in the open, especially the cash, because they're not docked. That... increases transparency and consumer honesty. When workers are more accurate/honest in their tax returns, the IRS garners better metrics on wages and gratuities nationwide. Everyone wins.
If I seem to be repeating myself, I am. I have no idea how this is "more corrupt" than the status quo ante. Who is corrupt in this scenario? The IRS for passing up revenue??? Please make it make sense, America-hater.
When restaurant food was cheap, tipping wasn't a big deal, especially before the trend of paying for your food first at the counter. A $10 meal and a $2 tip for a waiter/waitress that took care of you - not really bad.
Today, that same meal is $35 - $40 and wages haven't kept up for most, so not only does the tip have to increase, but people are also just eating out less. Lately it seems restaurants are closing left and right. So I think restuarant tipping as a percentage of all tipping is probably really on the decline
What's sort of come up in its place over the past few decades is the payment system asking you for a tip before you even get your food. I think there is a backlash against that, as well as tipping in non-food places. I'm seeing more and more Instagram posts about it.
WTF? A $10 to $40 jump? I haven't seen that anywhere around here, and I don't live in a cheap county, either. This is 100% about where you live and eat. This is not normal at all.
The Beefy 5 Layer Burrito used to be under $1. Yes, that was like 15 years ago, but we're still talking like a 300% increase. Even the regular bean burrito has doubled in price!
I live in Westchester county, just north of NYC, one of the most expensive places in the country. I get a large pepperoni pizza from the place down the street from me for $25 every week.
No, I don't think it was $7. I'm just interested in the relative change since the before times. For reference, I remember large pizzas being under $20 with one topping around that time.
Just before the pandemic I'd go have a pizza and beer nearly every Thursday to a nearby place. A medium pizza and a pitcher of beer was ~$16-18 (depending on beer selection).
Today in that same place, same pizza and same beer, is ~$50. So I only go about once a year.
> I've read lots of articles about how Americans hate their tipping culture.
You misunderstand.
There is tipping in restaurants, and then tipping in other places where it's much more traditional to not tip.
While some people don't like restaurant tipping, it's generally the other type of tipping the ruffles feathers. But in those cases, you don't have to tip.
> But tipping is optional
Again, you don't understand. No, tipping is not always optional. It's known and part of the bill in certain circumstances and this is known ahead of time.
> If you don't tip you both help society improve
I don't know, having been to European and American restaurants, I find the American restaurants to be far better at service. Couple that with free refills and other amenities (like again... actually good service), I wouldn't see it as better.
What would be examples of the tip
being part of the bill?
For me, if it IS on the bill it's a service fee and not a tip. If it's not on the bill, it's technically optional by definition regardless of social norms that'd make it practically mandatory.
If the waiter interrupts you when you don't need anything, it's bad service. If the waiter is not there when you need something, it's bad service. American restaurants tend to err too much in one direction and European restaurants in the other. It's up to you to choose which way you prefer.
I personally prefer going to restaurants when I'm in Europe and using delivery in the US.
Good servers should have ways to anticipate our needs and be proactive.
I've got a real pet peeve about something. I order my drinks and meal and the server starts dropping stuff on the table, and when the main course comes, they set it down and then ask, "is there anything else you need?" and due to whatever mental issues I have, I am fundamentally unable to tell them, on-the-spot, "yes" because I do not know what is missing. As soon as they turn their back and walk away, my mind refocuses on the food and I notice that yes, I do need something else. But they have gone away.
Even worse: if I'm a regular and I know how their food is served, I may anticipate stuff, like "can you put a second cup of butter with that?" or "could you add more tortillas?" and they always go "yeah" and then they don't do it. Because there is some unspoken restaurant rule that says they are supposed to serve the dish as-is, and then the customer expresses his needs, and there is a back-and-forth like that. It feels like an absolutely ridiculous charade to me.
Many dishes are deliberately served with not enough bread, or not enough sauce or dressing, in order to induce the diner to speak up and say "yes please bring more" (implying "ooh I like this food and I want to keep eating the rest of it") which is, again, a ridiculous charade, but seems to be a universal written rule for table-service restaurants in the USA.
And guess how this plays out when a table-service restaurant packages up food for delivery instead? That's right: they can never include enough dip, enough dressing, or enough bread/tortillas to complement your entrée, because they are still adhering to the "back-and-forth with the server" rule, but there is no server, only a taxi for your burrito, so your taxi driver eats all the gratuity, and you eat half the meal before running out of dipping sauce.
I will give bonus credit to a particular Ethiopian eatery here which just closed down, but if you ate in their dining room you'd ask over and over for more injera, but their delivery orders were miraculously packaged with extra injera to consume with the entire meal. Bless their hearts.
I don't mean to be rude, but have you ever considered that most people simply don't ask for extras like that?
When asked "is there anything else you need?", the most common replies by far are going to be along the lines of the next drink order or where the restroom is.
If anything, most people never finish all the sauce or bread. The restaurant is not trying to gauge what you want, but what makes the most sense based on how everyone else consumes it. Why be wasteful?
Most people? Most people? Are you somehow a better fortune-teller who knows what transpires at "most people"'s tables?
I cannot even comprehend "next drink order or restroom". Waitress just set down my main course, hot and ready to eat, and I don't know where the bathroom is? Didn't I wash my hands on arrival, or just after ordering: here's the menu back and please direct me to the restroom? The waitress is literally asking if she can bring me something so that I can begin eating. That means: condiments, utensils, send this plate back it's wrong. If my drink's empty, she proactively points it out and offers a refill. She wants to know if she is gonna return to this table, or if she's done and she can serve others now.
This is an objective experience. I can promise you that I'm not being unreasonable about sauce or bread. It's not a matter of drowning food or trying to use more sparingly. There is always objectively less than half as much sauce, as food to put it on. I have literally argued with waitresses about how much sour cream to bring out for potato skins and they seem simply forbidden to anticipate that. They will come out with 1.5oz instead of 1 and point out how much bigger the container is... when I need 3oz or more just to finish the plate.
Or in a Mexican restaurant: fajitas or some other DIY dish, comes with tortillas alongside it. The customary method is to scoop the fajitas into a tortilla and make your own tacos as you go. But there are 5 servings on the plate and only 2 tortillas. The math ain't mathin' and there is literally no way to fit in a skillet full of fajitas in 2 of any size tortillas.
That Ethiopian restaurant knew exactly what they were doing. They gave enough injera to eat a little bit of the meal. The injera is your utensil, and you cannot eat Ethiopian food without it. Imagine if you gradually ate your fork during a meal and your fork disappeared 1/3rd of the way through it. You would probably ask for 2 more forks. That is injera in action.
How do you know that "most people" would never finish 2 tortillas? Do they just like, stop at 1 tortilla and 1 scoop of fajitas, and then tell the waitress to just trash the rest of their meal? I cannot comprehend this assertion. Often, running out of tortillas just prompts me to start eating with a fork. It's not wrong, but it's not customary Mexican dining: you put 'em in the tortillas because that's what tortillas are for, and tortillas are overflowing endlessly from every metate on the planet.
They know how to spam you with food, because the free tortilla chips know no bounds, and they'll refill your soda without asking first, but somehow it takes an Act of Congress to put down adequate, complementary servings of tortillas. It's fucking obvious.
No. When I finish half of my potato skins and the sour cream runs out, then I ask for more, because the full plate of potato skins is what I paid for off the fucking menu. I want to finish my meal in a normal way, please. I fucking ordered enough food to eat and I didn't order 3x as much so that they can throw it in the fucking garbage when I leave. I will do the tortilla dance and keep asking for tortillas until I finish the fucking fajitas plate because I paid them to eat in the customary fashion, and they know exactly how it works.
Restaurants do care about this charade, because if the diner sits at the table asking for more bread, they'll probably ask for more cocktails or dessert, and they'll consider raising the tip. More time spent dining, and asking for more, is profitable for them. It is profitable to over-serve large portions for the main course, because it looks generous, feels satisfying, and it doesn't cost much more to do so.
And again, this absolutely craps out when they wrap it for delivery, it gets to your door, you run out of sauce and/or bread, and you indeed trash 2/3rds of the fucking $60 meal because it's not worth eating incomplete food.
And yes, I do mean to be fucking rude, when I get second-guessed like that.
The extras you listed are all excessive carbs or saturated fat. People are conscious of this and usually try to eat less of the (flat)breads/sauces and more of the meat and veggies.
Your point about cost doesn't make sense either. It's actually the cheaper food you're wanting more of so you can "fill up" or something. That's the opposite of what people usually complain about. People want more of the meat or finer ingredients. It's true that people used to serve and eat more carbs, but as you said, it's now getting thrown away so they don't bother anymore. It's not a psychological scheme. The world around you just changed. Hence why you now have to ask for more.
You're simply not in the majority opinion, but that doesn't mean there aren't restaurants that would prefer someone like you as a customer. The rest of us would be feeling equally ripped off if we ate at the kind of place that you prefer.
Specifically, with the example of fajitas, people do in fact eat way overloaded tacos and that is 100% traditional. So is mixing the extra fajitas with the sides like the rice or beans. So is tearing a small piece of tortilla instead of making a taco.
I overload my tacos (and I tear injera as you describe) and it is still a physical impossibility for the surface area of 2 tortillas to carry 5 servings of fajitas. Impossible. Tortillas are cheap, abundant, and low-carb. There is no rational reason to serve so few.
I’ve actually had several delivery instances where the eatery completely left them out. Later, I ordered extra on the side and they omitted them all. It was crazymaking.
You do not ethically have the option of not tipping in an American restaurant. If it's table service and they don't specifically say not to tip, you either tip or don't dine there. Tipping is part of the compensation structure for the front of the house. Refusing to tip is ethically comparable to wage theft.
Then just skip the BS and make a 15% tip be a mandatory minimum. Its so strange that you can be seen as an asshole by not spending money optionally, despite it being a societal virtue to be smart with your money and not spend more than you need in any other context.
Studies show that people with these attributes consistently receive more tips than others: young, female, white, and beautiful. On average, that is; you may be completely fair when you tip. So societies would be less $X-ist if tipping vanished.
I’m visiting Austin tx and was in a restaurant last night. On the menu it said party of 4 means automatic 20% tip added plus a 4% “administrative fee”. So 24% tip automatically added to the bill. Fortunately only had two people with me. They got zero from me.
I think many Americans feel a moral obligation to tip when asked, and when presented with the opportunity it suddenly becomes a decision between spending a few bucks or wondering if you won't be welcome to come back next time.
It can be insulting to be considered "cheap" and that's the label you might gain if you stop tipping.
We've heard from waitstaff and restaurants for decades that this is part of their income.
I think the only way this changes is through regulation or a seismic shift in this mentality causing people to stop tipping, resulting in waitstaff retention issues, resulting in restaurant owners paying better.
I wish the "morality gun" would point back at those who ask to be tipped, the same way a beggar who asks if you have some spare some change is castigated (in most places)
You aren't in the right for being "openly angry" at a customer who doesn't voluntarily pay an optional tip. Either raise the prices and pay your servers more, or shut the fuck up about it (the angry people, I mean).
It's not in any practical sense optional. Refusing to tip is stiffing service staff on their compensation. That's the arrangement, at least in table service restaurants. If you're not comfortable with that, don't patronize those businesses.
In any sense optional? What about the literal sense? If you're not comfortable with _that_ arrangement, stop making it optional.
The only people stiffing service staff on their compensation is their employer shrugging their shoulders and not pricing the server's labour correctly. Your compensation agreement is between you and your employer, I'm here to pay for goods/services in exchange for the amount of money that we agreed on.
It's just not really my problem, and getting openly angry at me means you're the asshole, sorry.
You can tell yourself that as much as you want, but there is a decent chance staff will confront you about this on the way out the door, and nobody in the restaurant watching that happen is going to think staff are the assholes.
Tips are part of the compensation structure for front of the house staff. You are ethically obligated to tip.
Try to have some self esteem. If you don't feel like you can stand up for yourself feel free to give them a 100% tip or whatever, maybe they'll cheer for you as you leave. Perhaps other people watching will join in.
Again, your compensation is between you and your employer. If I don't tip, perhaps your employer should be paying you more. Raise the prices to account for this.
Yeah, the staff would be assholes by any measure. Publicly confronting a paying customer, demanding a tip. I've personally never ever witnessed such a scene. Have you?
I attended church for years without tithing at all. I didn't feel able to. I definitely did not get cornered or lectured or confronted by the priest for my deadbeat spirituality. My own conscience eventually prevailed, as surely a non-tipper's conscience would.
Actually, the receptionist called me once and brought it up in a non-judgemental way, and I was the one who lectured her, saying I was volunteering and contributing an abundance of my time and talent such that I was making up for the $0 tithing. And she noted that down in my record, and the notes were still there when I got her job years later. It was kind of amusing to me, remembered as the guy who mansplained stewardship to the parish office. But I also brought it up directly in private with my pastor, who was unwilling to... command me to begin tithing.
Waitstaff is literally paid to be kind and courteous to customers. Even if they personally obviously hate my guts they are still polite and non-confrontational. There are plenty of non-verbal ways for you to give bad service and express hostility to diners in the food-service industry, that do not involve confronting or insulting them.
The theory is that gratuities reward great service and so a gratuity paid should be commensurate with that outstanding service. I don't know if this is true anymore, because I only adjust upwards in exceptional circumstances, and it's not often that waitstaff goes "above and beyond" in obvious efforts to earn higher tips. Not even in those breastaurants like Hooters.
It is customary for a diner to leave $0 or $0.01 in retaliation for blatantly bad/rude service. It would also be customary to never return, if you're that offended. Surely, if the party did return, the staff would be entitled to treat them rather poorly. They could conceivably refuse service to a non-tipper. But why though? And why in the world "confront" a customer? That will surely earn 1 star on Yelp and Maps.
If a particular server earns $0 tips, rather than confronting customers, they should probably pause to consider what went wrong at that table. The management should take notice if this happens on the regular. Far from confronting customers, $0 tips should generally considered a signal of bad service or dissatisfaction, don't you think? If someone already felt they were mistreated, how does a confrontation address that issue?
Not tipping your waiter is a dick move. A bad tip for bad service is one thing. No tip is just antisocial. You're not "sticking it to the man" by being a jerk.
I'm not trying to "stick it to the man" or imply the server is bad at their job. I'm paying the agreed upon price. If servers need to be paid more to do their job they can demand more in wages, and the prices can raise to account for that.
Not paying your employees and evading taxes isn't a dick move? As someone from the rest of the world that seems like the core definition of being societally anti.
If I lived in that utopia (/s), I'd go around with a labelmaker to print out the prices of menu items when 15% (is that enough, or still cheap) is included, and stick them next to the prices on the menu.
Heck, someone should vibe code a mobile browser extension to do that for online menues...
I've drawn a line in the sand. I'll tip (and tip well!) for traditionally tipped jobs, like waiter, bellhop, barber, barrista, bartender, etc. The hundred new things that corporations are begging for? Hell no. Absolutely not.
I will not tip at a drive-through oil change service.
I will not tip at a fast food counter.
I certainly will not tip at a convenience store.
Every single new tipping situation is a company begging me to subsidize their employees' wages instead of increasing them. Screw that. I'm not participating, and they can't make me. Those existing jobs were grandfathered in: waiters make below minimum wage on the expectation they'll make it up in tips, and that's f'ed up, but I can't change that by myself and I'm not going to stiff someone making sub-minimum to prove a point. All the others? Those cheapskate bosses can get bent. Pay more if you want to keep good help. Don't literally beg me to donate money to your employees as a charity.
Indeed! Tip for where you think they added value. I tip for well deserved work. I tip the USPS postal guy once every few months and holiday season. I tip where services are free, but the employee has to deal with some kind of hazard or discomfort, or work that I would not do myself. If I have a delivery of a large item, I tip the UPS/FedEx. Don't tip anywhere where they trick you into tipping, but give tips to lots of others who never expect a tip, have a much tougher job than serving food.
I believe tipping is primarily cultural default and companies using human psychology to guilt them into it. Most Americans worked at restaurants while attending college. They are conditioned to think its perfectly acceptable for an employer to pay $2.13/hour and customers must pay tips to support them. This became a cultural default. There is another cultural phenomenon, people mostly go out on dates to restaurants, usually the man foots the bill, and wants the woman not to think of him as a cheap person.
All checkout systems now ask for a tip, and another asking to donate to their own charity (Ronald McDonald House Charities or some other garbage charity), guilting the buyer into giving a tip and/charity for the billionaires 'non-profit'. We foot the bill for the billionaires generosity and kindness, they will go give TED talks on how awesome they are.
Person with some risk of physical injury working on one of your move valuable assets, you car = no tip. Someone carrying a piece of luggage a hundred yards, tip because traditionally only very wealthy people used to use bellhops. Seems really random.
Last time I visited Miami Beach, I found out they have a forced 20% gratuity at restaurants. And still ask for a tip on top that. My friends and I were likely tipping >40% for subpar service and overpriced drinks for a few days until someone noticed it on their receipt.
No way. I routinely tip 20%, rounded up. If the place has a mandatory tip, I add max(0, 20-[service change]) to make up the difference between that and 20%. If it's 10%, I'll add 10% more. If it's 20%, I'll add 0. If it's 25%, I'll leave a bed Yelp review and never go back.
Because the minimum wage under US law for a tipped job is $2.13/hour and most find it socially and morally problematic to deny that person their primary source of income.
To break the cycle, we need to force all employers to pay their employees a living wage.
Maybe where you’re at, people working a job can afford to live. Imagine if you lived in a society where a waitress relies on tips to pay for their children’s doctors appointments.
>Because the minimum wage under US law for a tipped job is $2.13/hour and most find it socially and morally problematic to deny that person their primary source of income.
This is a common but incorrect meme and misunderstanding. Setting aside that the federal min wage of $7.25/hr is a universal floor and states can (and many do) go much higher, the difference for tipped jobs is that it becomes a "guaranteed minimum" instead of "guaranteed payment". Ie, for an untipped job, the employer must simply pay minimum wage or higher, period. For a tipped job, the employer must pay the $2.13/hr no matter what, but if the amount of tips the employee gets plus averages out to being equal or greater than $7.25/hr the employer doesn't need to pay more. However, if the employee does not get enough tips to reach $7.25/hr, the employer must make up the difference. So ultimately nobody is allowed to end up with less than minimum wage. The law just allows a different path to get there for tipped employees. If nobody tipped at all, employees would still get minimum wage (or higher).
Of course, it's completely reasonable to argue that federal minimum wage itself is disgustingly low. It doesn't auto-adjust to reflect inflation, and the highest purchasing power it ever had was back in 1968. Congress last increased it to $7.25 in 2009 and has left it that way 17 years later. Even by official definitions of the federal poverty line (themselves grossly outdated underestimates), minimum wage is below it. But it's still not good to confuse the matter by claiming any employer is legally allowed to let their employees end up with below minimum wage (that some certainly break the law is important too of course).
Edit: Straight from the horse's mouth (department of labor's FLSA page):
>The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) requires payment of at least the Federal minimum wage to covered, nonexempt employees. An employer of a tipped employee is only required to pay $2.13 an hour in direct wages if that amount plus the tips received equals at least the Federal minimum wage, the employee retains all tips and the employee customarily and regularly receives more than $30 a month in tips. If an employee's tips combined with the employer's direct wages of at least $2.13 an hour do not equal the Federal minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the difference.
>Some states have minimum wage laws specific to tipped employees. When an employee is subject to both the Federal and state wage laws, the employee is entitled to the provisions which provides the greater benefits.
"However, if the employee does not get enough tips to reach $7.25/hr, the employer must make up the difference."
Not disagreeing, but I can recall a couple of workplaces that did not do that. (One at least was sued by a former employee after they quit, but my sense was that the employer treats even the lawsuit as just the cost of doing business.)
> Because the minimum wage under US law for a tipped job is $2.13/hour and most find it socially and morally problematic to deny that person their primary source of income.
So if you feel you are morally responsible for a waiter's salary you have to tip. But if you feel their salary is not your concern you don't have to tip. Why aren't more Americans like me (I'm not American)?
> Because the minimum wage under US law for a tipped job is $2.13/hour and most find it socially and morally problematic to deny that person their primary source of income.
If a tipped employee fails to make minimum wage, the employer has to make up the difference. You're not denying them anything, you're making the business owner pay their payroll.
Additionally plenty of states have minimum wages much, much higher than the federal one.
Because then you’re just being a dick. It would have to happen some other way, like regulation, or enough establishments explicitly banning tips and then demonstrating increased profit as a result.
To formalize what other comments are saying, the current state is a Nash (dis-)equilibrium: no consumer can gain more by changing their own strategy if we hold all other consumer's strategies fixed.
Basically if you individually don't tip you're just hurting someone who's underpaid by the tipping culture system. I agree if _everyone_ stopped tipping simultaneously the system would become untenable and have to change, but it would be pretty painful for the workers involved in the interim.
Perhaps the only individual in the game who does have a positive incentive is the business owner, where going tip-free can gain a good rep among customers and get more business if viewed as ethical and stably priced. I've seen this grow a bit more common in California restaurants but it's certainly still rare. Most business owners would rather just participate in the dis-equilibrium and coast off the shadow subsidy.
Can someone even be underpaid by tipping culture? To my knowledge every tipped position has a federal fallback on the minimum wage, and untipped positions receive tips as bonuses on top of their hourly/salary wage.
Like, a waiter may start at $2.25/hr, and if they work for say 20 hours that week and get $150 in tips, for an effective wage of $9.75/hr, they’re above fed min wage. However if they only get $50 in tips? Now they’re at $4.75/hr, and their employer is federally required to supply the remaining $50, on top of whatever the state may require.
It would be interesting to hear from someone in the service industry (it was 40 years ago for me) since I believe that in practice employers get away with underpaying their employees all the time—even though legally obliged to compensate them.
Tip, don't tip, do what you like. Not everything needs to be regulated by social standards. Feel like tipping? Do it. Don't? Then don't. Pretty simple.
A slightly more sensible minimum wage of $18/hr in Ontario has made it comfortable for me to avoid the most ridiculous tipping like fast food workers at Starbucks or when I pick up my own pizza. But I’m still happy to tip servers, cleaners, mohels, hairdressers, or anyone who could make me look ridiculous, really.
The only reasonable stand is to advocate for living wages but we’ll never do that in numbers strong enough for it to happen. Tipping has gotten out of hand but so has the cost of living.
I've drastically reduced my tips. I'm done with this system in the USA where they are allowed to advertise price X, but you're expected to pay X+Y, where Y might be a fee or a % of X.
And the way the system is trying to sneak it in everywhere more and more makes me revolt even more.
Last time I was in a restaurant and I tried to pay with the QR code thing it suggested I paid 20% tip on top of the total + tax. Tip is supposed to go on the part before tax. Sneaking it in makes it so that the people working there think they get paid better, without the employers paying their fair share.
It should be on the employer to ensure that (s)he is properly remunerated for the work (s)he does, not the customer who has no insight in that contract.
You don't tip because you are stingy as long as the minimum wage has not increased to the point where these people could live of it. (Hint: they currently can't.)
The comments are talking about two different things. There's traditional tipping, like at restaurants, barber, etc, where you supposedly tip for good service, and there's the newish POS (point of sale) tipping screens that are showing up everywhere and are a dark pattern for extracting extra money for doing nothing.
I'm American. I think the net effect for me is that I eat out less often since tipping frustrates me. I also leave five star reviews solely for places that don't ask for a tip at the counter when I do eat out.
I moved from US to Australia a couple years back, some notes on tipping.
- Not only is there no tipping here, things cost what they say they cost. Taxes are always added in. Worst case you pay 2% for a credit card fee.
- There is basically no tipping. I see jars occasionally but it's not a thing.
- Service is often not as good but fine. If you want a second drink, go up the bar, mate.
- However you NEVER self-bus your table here. I've seen almost no restaurants with bussing stations, which were very common in Seattle.
The wages are higher, healthcare is covered, taxes are higher. When I went back to US earlier this year the tipping culture shocked me - POS 22 / 25 / 28% -- wth?
Agree there is no way to change this as an individual consumer. But I sure don't miss it.
Short answer: More people rely on tips for their living than people who are bothered by it. Even the ones who are bothered by it, are not bothered enough to do anything about it.
Asking as a non-American: have any businesses (restaurants, bars, ...) ever tried operating with a no-tip-necessary policy? To see whether customers reward this business model?
Looking at the comments, can a business operate with transparent, "this is what you will pay at the end" prices shown (which include everything like taxes)? Is this even allowed?
Fear by tipped labor that price adjustments in response to loss of tips will not make up for the tip income - maybe taken in part by the employer or just process not raised to the commensurate level.
Fear that higher wages that are fully taxed will be less than tips that are partially or fully undeclared and go untaxed.
Fear of posted prices. Customers subconsciously Fear the $20 entree becoming a $30 entree even if they consciously know they already pay $30 for it in the end.
And I suspect a subconscious societal Fear that if the burden of low traffic staffing is shifted from restaurant servers to restaurant owners, many won't survive and the restaurant industry will drastically shrink.
Someone Memento tips in terms of originally being intended as an extra bonus. Doubtful. Tips are a way of shifting risk away from restaurant owners and onto labor. An employee at a restaurant earning only a wage needs to be paid that wage for every hour they are present, regardless of whether their are diners paying to be served. In modern times, tipped staff have been paid an extremely low hourly wage and rely on tips to make up the difference. But when customer traffic is low, they make little in tops while the business loses little in labor costs for having them there, such that those tipped staff assume a chunk of the business risk. I imagine that this is a tradition that dates back a long time, and perhaps the work was all tips and no wage.
The spread of tipping is essentially an outgrowth of that original sin, a shift of business risk to desperate employees dressed up as higher income.
Guessing your mom was never a waitress. I don't tip in the UK because servers here have real wages and healthcare. But I'm American and I'll tip unless the server is actually actively rude.
minimaxir | 21 hours ago
Americans would riot if restaurants raised the prices to offset the loss of tipping.
stingraycharles | 21 hours ago
drnick1 | 21 hours ago
That's entirely possible, but then again people make far more in the U.S., so the cost of living is generally higher. Taking that into account, I don't think the cost of eating out is higher than in Europe.
stingraycharles | 20 hours ago
JKCalhoun | 13 hours ago
stingraycharles | 7 hours ago
Spooky23 | 21 hours ago
My experience is that European restaurants are cheaper and better. Especially in 2026 with the Trump inflation hellscape. Everything from McDonalds to local high end restaurants.
Certain commodities are even more shocking. You’ll get the best loaf of bread that you ever had. in France, Spain, or Italy for two euro. In most American cities, unless there happens to be a functional local bakery, you’re looking at a seven dollar defrosted loaf of bread at a supermarket that tastes like cardboard.
alex_young | 21 hours ago
Even when factoring in things like tipping and taxes being included in the prices, I would say In aggregate US restaurants are simply more expensive.
haunter | 14 hours ago
Portion sizes are probably bigger but definitely not cheaper.
Ekaros | 10 hours ago
jswelker | 21 hours ago
newCrotchSmell | 21 hours ago
Thereby perpetuating cheap skate owners can continue to get away with labor exploitation and wage theft
You know the olds that put this social way in our heads are dead or too old to force our hand anymore
No need to continue to kowtow like an abused spouse; grandpas hand can barely lift a glass of water
jswelker | 21 hours ago
No one is worried about Grandpa's opinion here.
newCrotchSmell | 20 hours ago
Sensory memory reinforces our agency more than philosophy; we're replaying visual memory just like we were shown
All these startups need to jump yeh high raises hand to arbitrary height to get funding because of gramps old rules
Better keep line go up for old rich will financially engineer this economy right off a fiscal cliff! (Google simpsons fiscal cliff for context)
And more specifically to the "no one is worried..." you should get out more cause I encounter "we owe it to our elders to carry on their ways for all they did for us" type conclusions a whole lot
We could collectively action around less stupid jobs like knowledge work. We're well outside the post WW2 rebuild that fostered "endless growth" mentality in elders
84% in the US live <100 miles from their childhood home collectively acting just fine
I think a majority are capably collectively acting where they are; not sure where you see a deficiency there
flatline | 21 hours ago
One time I was forced to pay a tip for self checkout at the Austin airport. I was in a rush for my flight, it prompted, and I could not find any way to opt out.
tptacek | 21 hours ago
jswelker | 21 hours ago
delichon | 21 hours ago
senorcrab | 21 hours ago
smalltorch | 21 hours ago
I've seen it normalized for parties of 6 or greater...but not for any party size until recently.
I find that completely wild. If that's the case it should be posted and announced prior to anything taking place.
Incidentally it was the worst service I had ever gotten in a very long time, presumably because it didn't matter at all
desolate_muffin | 20 hours ago
chasd00 | 21 hours ago
Don’t be racist
hatsix | 20 hours ago
locopati | 9 hours ago
atlgator | 20 hours ago
Hotel cleaning staff are harder to find than you think. If Maria is made or broken based on your $2, she can find a job that pays better. You enabling her through a system of random rewards may actually hold her hostage in a bad situation.
igetspam | 20 hours ago
atlgator | 5 hours ago
The thing about unskilled labor jobs is that anyone can do them. The market is very fluid, but the wage is different based on the market, how laborious the job is, and how customer-service oriented you have to be. Reliability (showing up) and consistency (of work product) are your main assets in unskilled labor, and they are rewarded. The idea that you are stuck in a job and cannot move around, especially as a cleaning person, is false.
[OP] bjourne | 10 hours ago
EPWN3D | 4 hours ago
Additionally, if an employee is subject to the tipped minimum wage and fails to make the regular minimum wage over a pay period, the employer must make up the difference. That's why restaurant owners fight tooth and nail for tipping.
The reality is that tipping helps one person: the business owner. You don't have to subsidize their payroll if you don't want to.
NietzscheanNull | 2 hours ago
The median annual wage for a hotel cleaner in Ohio (as an arbitrary middle-of-the -road example) is $28.4K per year.[1] (And on average, immigrant workers earn 6% less than their native counterparts.) And in Ohio, the official annual household income poverty line--based on an outdated food-cost-heavy model that doesn't properly account for the explosion of housing and healthcare costs--is $27.3K for a three-person household.[2]
To me, that very much is a poverty wage. I agree that tipping is a subsidy to business owners and ultimately depresses wages at the expense of consumers, but that doesn't change the fact that under the status quo, tipped workers absolutely rely on their tips to provide for themselves and their families. The type of work they do is, by and large, grueling and thankless; they deserve fair compensation from the business that benefit from it, but in the absence of government-driven intervention, those business will continue to externalize that cost to workers and consumers regardless of whether you and a handful of others decide to tip.
Refusing to tip on principle results in a direct and tangible harm to those workers, but doesn't move the needle at societal scale. A true solution would require top-down overhaul of our wage-and-hour regulations to eliminate tipping loopholes and impose steep penalties for businesses that subsidize employee wages through the expectation of tips from customers. Any bottom-up approach is likely to fail as it's a prototypical collective action problem, and a patchwork implementation of that strategy would disproportionately harm those who can least afford to shoulder the burden for a long time before ever impacting the businesses and policies directly responsible for the current state of affairs.
[1]: https://www.bls.gov/IAG/TGS/iag70.htm#:~:text=Earnings%20and... [2]: https://dam.assets.ohio.gov/image/upload/v1778780151/jfs.ohi...
1123581321 | 21 hours ago
Dumblydorr | 21 hours ago
There are a few tip free restaurants around, it’s sort of rare. Tipping at basically every random shop is out of control nowadays tho.
drsalt | 21 hours ago
shadowgovt | 21 hours ago
isatty | 21 hours ago
ex-aws-dude | 21 hours ago
weinzierl | 21 hours ago
15% to 20% as customary in the US is anything but "marginally more expensive".
esperent | 21 hours ago
But we need to recognize that as a privilege. For most people (including me, ten years ago) that's absolutely not marginal. Most people are having to budget and count their money carefully even at amounts you are privileged do dismiss as having no relevance.
Having the privilege of wealth is fine, up to a point. Being so wrapped up in it that you don't recognize it as a privilege is not fine.
ex-aws-dude | 19 hours ago
I’m saying people are willing to accept marginal worseness the same way the frog in a pot of water accepts an increase of 1 degree
TZubiri | 21 hours ago
That said, I feel like sometimes this is pushed with those tablets with tipping options that present 20% 30% and 35%. Especially in situations where you self serve by going up to the clerk, as a non american it feels like I'm being scammed by a tourist trap, I might press 30% out of feeling that it's customary, but then an American might know the actual rules and either tip 15%, or not tip at all since it isn't customary to tip for self service.
newCrotchSmell | 21 hours ago
...wtf kind of argument is "this how it been so it is how it will be"
This forum has no room to argue it's a different kind of place.
Now that software is a dead end career cause AI HN is the same old blue collar Main Street dogma and tribal gibberish of any old typical bulletin board
TZubiri | 17 hours ago
Second of all, this is a convention issue, like tabs vs spaces, it could be one way, it could be the other way, in that sense I don't see how arguing that it could be the other way is helpful.
Either restaurant bills can be higher, or they can be a tad lower and tip is soft mandatory. It doesn't make much difference which way it is, the end result is the same. There's problems if you come from other conventions, in the same way that your device might burn if it comes from EU and you don't have a transformer.
newCrotchSmell | 4 hours ago
Quit reading there.
I am off the hook for your food, shelter, healthcare in our culture.
Social media has people in their living room demanding others respect that; but we're at home or other personal context ... everyone is hosting so no one dictates house rules
Social web is dying cause everyone caught on its just a bunch of entitled Americans expecting the same treatment they would get in their cul de sac
ButlerianJihad | 21 hours ago
Our federal administration recently decreed no tax on overtime, no tax on tips. This is a judicious move; although it unfortunately enshrines tipping even more firmly, it gives relief to the rank-and-file worker.
Generally, employees raking in cash tips always faced a tax-time dilemma: record and report all my tips from my job, and be taxed on them? Or just let it all slide under the table. Surely, nearly everyone does it. So, "no tax on tips" simply encourages you to report them without being docked for it.
Tipping culture is business-friendly. It gives business the opportunity to hire more workers for more hours, and simply offload the wages onto the customers. End-stage capitalism's finest hour.
As I mentioned earlier, tips in advance for services like food delivery? Those are bribes, not tips. They're also wages, but they're also bribes. It's fairly disgusting. I hate tipping. But I hate stiffing workers, and I personally enjoy a reputation as someone who cares about tipping people for services provided.
That being said, I encounter rampant “tip cheating” in my everyday life. In my state, there are businesses authorized to solicit tips, and the rest are not authorized to do so. However, a common sight on the countertop is a clear glass jar with cutesy decorations on it. They are not allowed to write “TIPS” on this jar, so you will see many creative turns of phrase. But, they are illicitly soliciting tips from you in the silence.
Ethical employees of ethical companies generally are discouraged from allowing customers to slip cash into their pockets. They do not want to get this kind of custom started when they are not authorized to accept gratuities. But it seems perfectly normalized to silently and passively solicit gifts from fake tip jars. The ubiquitous “take/leave a penny” tray is exactly the same low-grade tip cheating in convenience stores. So beware of this practice. If it is incorporated into their P.O.S. flow, I would expect it’s legitimate.
2III7 | 20 hours ago
ButlerianJihad | 11 hours ago
It is obviously deeply ingrained corruption that cash tipping, and under-reporting, has been a national pastime for decades. In fact, as the "cash discount" policies increase nationwide, there will be more corruption at the till, with entire sales going unreported. However, since many Americans in 2026 are accustomed to cashless payments, cash tipping was on its way out, and it's really hard to falsify or under-report credit-card-based gratuities!
Now that the IRS specifies non-taxable gratuities, the workers have ample incentive to simply track and report it in the open, especially the cash, because they're not docked. That... increases transparency and consumer honesty. When workers are more accurate/honest in their tax returns, the IRS garners better metrics on wages and gratuities nationwide. Everyone wins.
If I seem to be repeating myself, I am. I have no idea how this is "more corrupt" than the status quo ante. Who is corrupt in this scenario? The IRS for passing up revenue??? Please make it make sense, America-hater.
RiverCrochet | 21 hours ago
Today, that same meal is $35 - $40 and wages haven't kept up for most, so not only does the tip have to increase, but people are also just eating out less. Lately it seems restaurants are closing left and right. So I think restuarant tipping as a percentage of all tipping is probably really on the decline
What's sort of come up in its place over the past few decades is the payment system asking you for a tip before you even get your food. I think there is a backlash against that, as well as tipping in non-food places. I'm seeing more and more Instagram posts about it.
jasonlotito | 21 hours ago
WTF? A $10 to $40 jump? I haven't seen that anywhere around here, and I don't live in a cheap county, either. This is 100% about where you live and eat. This is not normal at all.
Blackthorn | 20 hours ago
jasonlotito | 7 hours ago
Prove it. I want to see facts, not feelings.
Vibe facts elsewhere.
igetspam | 20 hours ago
rrr_oh_man | 20 hours ago
Doesn't look too bad?
icedchai | 19 hours ago
rrr_oh_man | 14 hours ago
I’ve seen kebab prices in Europe also rise from 2-4€ to 8-15€ within five (!) years.
icedchai | 19 hours ago
senordevnyc | 19 hours ago
icedchai | 19 hours ago
jasonlotito | 7 hours ago
The assertion wasn't prices have gone up. The assertion was a 400% increase.
What was your pizza in 2019? under $8?
icedchai | 3 hours ago
senordevnyc | an hour ago
jjav | 19 hours ago
Today in that same place, same pizza and same beer, is ~$50. So I only go about once a year.
jasonlotito | 7 hours ago
My local place is $16 for a large pizza. I don't drink an entire pitcher of beer, so I don't know.
Regardless, they've been able to charge that much and stay in business, so maybe you are just living outside your means.
jasonlotito | 7 hours ago
jasonlotito | 21 hours ago
You misunderstand.
There is tipping in restaurants, and then tipping in other places where it's much more traditional to not tip.
While some people don't like restaurant tipping, it's generally the other type of tipping the ruffles feathers. But in those cases, you don't have to tip.
> But tipping is optional
Again, you don't understand. No, tipping is not always optional. It's known and part of the bill in certain circumstances and this is known ahead of time.
> If you don't tip you both help society improve
I don't know, having been to European and American restaurants, I find the American restaurants to be far better at service. Couple that with free refills and other amenities (like again... actually good service), I wouldn't see it as better.
weinzierl | 21 hours ago
What would be examples of those "other places"?
What would be examples of the tip being part of the bill?
For me, if it IS on the bill it's a service fee and not a tip. If it's not on the bill, it's technically optional by definition regardless of social norms that'd make it practically mandatory.
cpburns2009 | 20 hours ago
jltsiren | 20 hours ago
I personally prefer going to restaurants when I'm in Europe and using delivery in the US.
ButlerianJihad | 13 hours ago
I've got a real pet peeve about something. I order my drinks and meal and the server starts dropping stuff on the table, and when the main course comes, they set it down and then ask, "is there anything else you need?" and due to whatever mental issues I have, I am fundamentally unable to tell them, on-the-spot, "yes" because I do not know what is missing. As soon as they turn their back and walk away, my mind refocuses on the food and I notice that yes, I do need something else. But they have gone away.
Even worse: if I'm a regular and I know how their food is served, I may anticipate stuff, like "can you put a second cup of butter with that?" or "could you add more tortillas?" and they always go "yeah" and then they don't do it. Because there is some unspoken restaurant rule that says they are supposed to serve the dish as-is, and then the customer expresses his needs, and there is a back-and-forth like that. It feels like an absolutely ridiculous charade to me.
Many dishes are deliberately served with not enough bread, or not enough sauce or dressing, in order to induce the diner to speak up and say "yes please bring more" (implying "ooh I like this food and I want to keep eating the rest of it") which is, again, a ridiculous charade, but seems to be a universal written rule for table-service restaurants in the USA.
And guess how this plays out when a table-service restaurant packages up food for delivery instead? That's right: they can never include enough dip, enough dressing, or enough bread/tortillas to complement your entrée, because they are still adhering to the "back-and-forth with the server" rule, but there is no server, only a taxi for your burrito, so your taxi driver eats all the gratuity, and you eat half the meal before running out of dipping sauce.
I will give bonus credit to a particular Ethiopian eatery here which just closed down, but if you ate in their dining room you'd ask over and over for more injera, but their delivery orders were miraculously packaged with extra injera to consume with the entire meal. Bless their hearts.
sublinear | 12 hours ago
When asked "is there anything else you need?", the most common replies by far are going to be along the lines of the next drink order or where the restroom is.
If anything, most people never finish all the sauce or bread. The restaurant is not trying to gauge what you want, but what makes the most sense based on how everyone else consumes it. Why be wasteful?
ButlerianJihad | 12 hours ago
I cannot even comprehend "next drink order or restroom". Waitress just set down my main course, hot and ready to eat, and I don't know where the bathroom is? Didn't I wash my hands on arrival, or just after ordering: here's the menu back and please direct me to the restroom? The waitress is literally asking if she can bring me something so that I can begin eating. That means: condiments, utensils, send this plate back it's wrong. If my drink's empty, she proactively points it out and offers a refill. She wants to know if she is gonna return to this table, or if she's done and she can serve others now.
This is an objective experience. I can promise you that I'm not being unreasonable about sauce or bread. It's not a matter of drowning food or trying to use more sparingly. There is always objectively less than half as much sauce, as food to put it on. I have literally argued with waitresses about how much sour cream to bring out for potato skins and they seem simply forbidden to anticipate that. They will come out with 1.5oz instead of 1 and point out how much bigger the container is... when I need 3oz or more just to finish the plate.
Or in a Mexican restaurant: fajitas or some other DIY dish, comes with tortillas alongside it. The customary method is to scoop the fajitas into a tortilla and make your own tacos as you go. But there are 5 servings on the plate and only 2 tortillas. The math ain't mathin' and there is literally no way to fit in a skillet full of fajitas in 2 of any size tortillas.
That Ethiopian restaurant knew exactly what they were doing. They gave enough injera to eat a little bit of the meal. The injera is your utensil, and you cannot eat Ethiopian food without it. Imagine if you gradually ate your fork during a meal and your fork disappeared 1/3rd of the way through it. You would probably ask for 2 more forks. That is injera in action.
How do you know that "most people" would never finish 2 tortillas? Do they just like, stop at 1 tortilla and 1 scoop of fajitas, and then tell the waitress to just trash the rest of their meal? I cannot comprehend this assertion. Often, running out of tortillas just prompts me to start eating with a fork. It's not wrong, but it's not customary Mexican dining: you put 'em in the tortillas because that's what tortillas are for, and tortillas are overflowing endlessly from every metate on the planet.
They know how to spam you with food, because the free tortilla chips know no bounds, and they'll refill your soda without asking first, but somehow it takes an Act of Congress to put down adequate, complementary servings of tortillas. It's fucking obvious.
No. When I finish half of my potato skins and the sour cream runs out, then I ask for more, because the full plate of potato skins is what I paid for off the fucking menu. I want to finish my meal in a normal way, please. I fucking ordered enough food to eat and I didn't order 3x as much so that they can throw it in the fucking garbage when I leave. I will do the tortilla dance and keep asking for tortillas until I finish the fucking fajitas plate because I paid them to eat in the customary fashion, and they know exactly how it works.
Restaurants do care about this charade, because if the diner sits at the table asking for more bread, they'll probably ask for more cocktails or dessert, and they'll consider raising the tip. More time spent dining, and asking for more, is profitable for them. It is profitable to over-serve large portions for the main course, because it looks generous, feels satisfying, and it doesn't cost much more to do so.
And again, this absolutely craps out when they wrap it for delivery, it gets to your door, you run out of sauce and/or bread, and you indeed trash 2/3rds of the fucking $60 meal because it's not worth eating incomplete food.
And yes, I do mean to be fucking rude, when I get second-guessed like that.
sublinear | 4 hours ago
Your point about cost doesn't make sense either. It's actually the cheaper food you're wanting more of so you can "fill up" or something. That's the opposite of what people usually complain about. People want more of the meat or finer ingredients. It's true that people used to serve and eat more carbs, but as you said, it's now getting thrown away so they don't bother anymore. It's not a psychological scheme. The world around you just changed. Hence why you now have to ask for more.
You're simply not in the majority opinion, but that doesn't mean there aren't restaurants that would prefer someone like you as a customer. The rest of us would be feeling equally ripped off if we ate at the kind of place that you prefer.
Specifically, with the example of fajitas, people do in fact eat way overloaded tacos and that is 100% traditional. So is mixing the extra fajitas with the sides like the rice or beans. So is tearing a small piece of tortilla instead of making a taco.
ButlerianJihad | 3 hours ago
I overload my tacos (and I tear injera as you describe) and it is still a physical impossibility for the surface area of 2 tortillas to carry 5 servings of fajitas. Impossible. Tortillas are cheap, abundant, and low-carb. There is no rational reason to serve so few.
I’ve actually had several delivery instances where the eatery completely left them out. Later, I ordered extra on the side and they omitted them all. It was crazymaking.
tptacek | 21 hours ago
charlie90 | 17 hours ago
bsuvc | 21 hours ago
How would it help society?
[OP] bjourne | 10 hours ago
chasd00 | 21 hours ago
nucleative | 21 hours ago
It can be insulting to be considered "cheap" and that's the label you might gain if you stop tipping.
We've heard from waitstaff and restaurants for decades that this is part of their income.
I think the only way this changes is through regulation or a seismic shift in this mentality causing people to stop tipping, resulting in waitstaff retention issues, resulting in restaurant owners paying better.
I wish the "morality gun" would point back at those who ask to be tipped, the same way a beggar who asks if you have some spare some change is castigated (in most places)
tptacek | 21 hours ago
hatefulmoron | 21 hours ago
tptacek | 21 hours ago
hatefulmoron | 20 hours ago
The only people stiffing service staff on their compensation is their employer shrugging their shoulders and not pricing the server's labour correctly. Your compensation agreement is between you and your employer, I'm here to pay for goods/services in exchange for the amount of money that we agreed on.
It's just not really my problem, and getting openly angry at me means you're the asshole, sorry.
tptacek | 20 hours ago
Tips are part of the compensation structure for front of the house staff. You are ethically obligated to tip.
hatefulmoron | 20 hours ago
Again, your compensation is between you and your employer. If I don't tip, perhaps your employer should be paying you more. Raise the prices to account for this.
ButlerianJihad | 14 hours ago
Yeah, the staff would be assholes by any measure. Publicly confronting a paying customer, demanding a tip. I've personally never ever witnessed such a scene. Have you?
I attended church for years without tithing at all. I didn't feel able to. I definitely did not get cornered or lectured or confronted by the priest for my deadbeat spirituality. My own conscience eventually prevailed, as surely a non-tipper's conscience would.
Actually, the receptionist called me once and brought it up in a non-judgemental way, and I was the one who lectured her, saying I was volunteering and contributing an abundance of my time and talent such that I was making up for the $0 tithing. And she noted that down in my record, and the notes were still there when I got her job years later. It was kind of amusing to me, remembered as the guy who mansplained stewardship to the parish office. But I also brought it up directly in private with my pastor, who was unwilling to... command me to begin tithing.
Waitstaff is literally paid to be kind and courteous to customers. Even if they personally obviously hate my guts they are still polite and non-confrontational. There are plenty of non-verbal ways for you to give bad service and express hostility to diners in the food-service industry, that do not involve confronting or insulting them.
The theory is that gratuities reward great service and so a gratuity paid should be commensurate with that outstanding service. I don't know if this is true anymore, because I only adjust upwards in exceptional circumstances, and it's not often that waitstaff goes "above and beyond" in obvious efforts to earn higher tips. Not even in those breastaurants like Hooters.
It is customary for a diner to leave $0 or $0.01 in retaliation for blatantly bad/rude service. It would also be customary to never return, if you're that offended. Surely, if the party did return, the staff would be entitled to treat them rather poorly. They could conceivably refuse service to a non-tipper. But why though? And why in the world "confront" a customer? That will surely earn 1 star on Yelp and Maps.
If a particular server earns $0 tips, rather than confronting customers, they should probably pause to consider what went wrong at that table. The management should take notice if this happens on the regular. Far from confronting customers, $0 tips should generally considered a signal of bad service or dissatisfaction, don't you think? If someone already felt they were mistreated, how does a confrontation address that issue?
hollerith | 9 hours ago
(I don't have an opinion on the overall point of "tipping culture".)
cpburns2009 | 20 hours ago
hatefulmoron | 20 hours ago
tptacek | 20 hours ago
hatefulmoron | 19 hours ago
2III7 | 20 hours ago
netsharc | 21 hours ago
Heck, someone should vibe code a mobile browser extension to do that for online menues...
biggestriverman | 21 hours ago
kstrauser | 21 hours ago
I will not tip at a drive-through oil change service.
I will not tip at a fast food counter.
I certainly will not tip at a convenience store.
Every single new tipping situation is a company begging me to subsidize their employees' wages instead of increasing them. Screw that. I'm not participating, and they can't make me. Those existing jobs were grandfathered in: waiters make below minimum wage on the expectation they'll make it up in tips, and that's f'ed up, but I can't change that by myself and I'm not going to stiff someone making sub-minimum to prove a point. All the others? Those cheapskate bosses can get bent. Pay more if you want to keep good help. Don't literally beg me to donate money to your employees as a charity.
thelastgallon | 19 hours ago
I believe tipping is primarily cultural default and companies using human psychology to guilt them into it. Most Americans worked at restaurants while attending college. They are conditioned to think its perfectly acceptable for an employer to pay $2.13/hour and customers must pay tips to support them. This became a cultural default. There is another cultural phenomenon, people mostly go out on dates to restaurants, usually the man foots the bill, and wants the woman not to think of him as a cheap person.
All checkout systems now ask for a tip, and another asking to donate to their own charity (Ronald McDonald House Charities or some other garbage charity), guilting the buyer into giving a tip and/charity for the billionaires 'non-profit'. We foot the bill for the billionaires generosity and kindness, they will go give TED talks on how awesome they are.
CVS was sued for using customer donations at checkout to fund a corporate philanthropy pledge: https://qz.com/cvs-customer-checkout-register-donations-laws...
_DeadFred_ | 7 hours ago
kstrauser | 6 hours ago
To be clear, I was listing examples of traditionally tipped jobs. That wasn't comprehensive.
prophesi | 21 hours ago
kstrauser | 21 hours ago
drivingmenuts | 14 hours ago
kstrauser | 6 hours ago
pokstad | 21 hours ago
m0llusk | 21 hours ago
kube-system | 21 hours ago
To break the cycle, we need to force all employers to pay their employees a living wage.
Maybe where you’re at, people working a job can afford to live. Imagine if you lived in a society where a waitress relies on tips to pay for their children’s doctors appointments.
xoa | 20 hours ago
This is a common but incorrect meme and misunderstanding. Setting aside that the federal min wage of $7.25/hr is a universal floor and states can (and many do) go much higher, the difference for tipped jobs is that it becomes a "guaranteed minimum" instead of "guaranteed payment". Ie, for an untipped job, the employer must simply pay minimum wage or higher, period. For a tipped job, the employer must pay the $2.13/hr no matter what, but if the amount of tips the employee gets plus averages out to being equal or greater than $7.25/hr the employer doesn't need to pay more. However, if the employee does not get enough tips to reach $7.25/hr, the employer must make up the difference. So ultimately nobody is allowed to end up with less than minimum wage. The law just allows a different path to get there for tipped employees. If nobody tipped at all, employees would still get minimum wage (or higher).
Of course, it's completely reasonable to argue that federal minimum wage itself is disgustingly low. It doesn't auto-adjust to reflect inflation, and the highest purchasing power it ever had was back in 1968. Congress last increased it to $7.25 in 2009 and has left it that way 17 years later. Even by official definitions of the federal poverty line (themselves grossly outdated underestimates), minimum wage is below it. But it's still not good to confuse the matter by claiming any employer is legally allowed to let their employees end up with below minimum wage (that some certainly break the law is important too of course).
Edit: Straight from the horse's mouth (department of labor's FLSA page):
>The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) requires payment of at least the Federal minimum wage to covered, nonexempt employees. An employer of a tipped employee is only required to pay $2.13 an hour in direct wages if that amount plus the tips received equals at least the Federal minimum wage, the employee retains all tips and the employee customarily and regularly receives more than $30 a month in tips. If an employee's tips combined with the employer's direct wages of at least $2.13 an hour do not equal the Federal minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the difference.
>Some states have minimum wage laws specific to tipped employees. When an employee is subject to both the Federal and state wage laws, the employee is entitled to the provisions which provides the greater benefits.
JKCalhoun | 13 hours ago
Not disagreeing, but I can recall a couple of workplaces that did not do that. (One at least was sued by a former employee after they quit, but my sense was that the employer treats even the lawsuit as just the cost of doing business.)
[OP] bjourne | 10 hours ago
So if you feel you are morally responsible for a waiter's salary you have to tip. But if you feel their salary is not your concern you don't have to tip. Why aren't more Americans like me (I'm not American)?
EPWN3D | 4 hours ago
If a tipped employee fails to make minimum wage, the employer has to make up the difference. You're not denying them anything, you're making the business owner pay their payroll.
Additionally plenty of states have minimum wages much, much higher than the federal one.
rootusrootus | 21 hours ago
Won’t ever succeed one person at a time.
ferris-booler | 21 hours ago
Basically if you individually don't tip you're just hurting someone who's underpaid by the tipping culture system. I agree if _everyone_ stopped tipping simultaneously the system would become untenable and have to change, but it would be pretty painful for the workers involved in the interim.
Perhaps the only individual in the game who does have a positive incentive is the business owner, where going tip-free can gain a good rep among customers and get more business if viewed as ethical and stably priced. I've seen this grow a bit more common in California restaurants but it's certainly still rare. Most business owners would rather just participate in the dis-equilibrium and coast off the shadow subsidy.
tourmalinetaco | 20 hours ago
Like, a waiter may start at $2.25/hr, and if they work for say 20 hours that week and get $150 in tips, for an effective wage of $9.75/hr, they’re above fed min wage. However if they only get $50 in tips? Now they’re at $4.75/hr, and their employer is federally required to supply the remaining $50, on top of whatever the state may require.
JKCalhoun | 13 hours ago
dabinat | 21 hours ago
But refusing to tip just hurts people at the bottom of the ladder and doesn’t do anything about the billionaires stealing from all of us.
j_m_b | 21 hours ago
spottedmarley | 21 hours ago
Waterluvian | 21 hours ago
igetspam | 20 hours ago
OptionOfT | 20 hours ago
And the way the system is trying to sneak it in everywhere more and more makes me revolt even more.
Last time I was in a restaurant and I tried to pay with the QR code thing it suggested I paid 20% tip on top of the total + tax. Tip is supposed to go on the part before tax. Sneaking it in makes it so that the people working there think they get paid better, without the employers paying their fair share.
It should be on the employer to ensure that (s)he is properly remunerated for the work (s)he does, not the customer who has no insight in that contract.
jacquesm | 20 hours ago
chkaloon | 20 hours ago
KevinMS | 19 hours ago
JKCalhoun | 13 hours ago
(Just kidding—but, yeah, the stores want me to be charitable rather than them.)
sublinear | 19 hours ago
kyleee | 6 hours ago
MiroslavPokorny | 19 hours ago
atrevbot | 19 hours ago
shawnb576 | 18 hours ago
- Not only is there no tipping here, things cost what they say they cost. Taxes are always added in. Worst case you pay 2% for a credit card fee. - There is basically no tipping. I see jars occasionally but it's not a thing. - Service is often not as good but fine. If you want a second drink, go up the bar, mate. - However you NEVER self-bus your table here. I've seen almost no restaurants with bussing stations, which were very common in Seattle.
The wages are higher, healthcare is covered, taxes are higher. When I went back to US earlier this year the tipping culture shocked me - POS 22 / 25 / 28% -- wth?
Agree there is no way to change this as an individual consumer. But I sure don't miss it.
oarla | 17 hours ago
zvr | 16 hours ago
Looking at the comments, can a business operate with transparent, "this is what you will pay at the end" prices shown (which include everything like taxes)? Is this even allowed?
netfortius | 9 hours ago
librasteve | 8 hours ago
This gets my goat.
crusty | 4 hours ago
Fear by tipped labor that price adjustments in response to loss of tips will not make up for the tip income - maybe taken in part by the employer or just process not raised to the commensurate level.
Fear that higher wages that are fully taxed will be less than tips that are partially or fully undeclared and go untaxed.
Fear of posted prices. Customers subconsciously Fear the $20 entree becoming a $30 entree even if they consciously know they already pay $30 for it in the end.
And I suspect a subconscious societal Fear that if the burden of low traffic staffing is shifted from restaurant servers to restaurant owners, many won't survive and the restaurant industry will drastically shrink.
Someone Memento tips in terms of originally being intended as an extra bonus. Doubtful. Tips are a way of shifting risk away from restaurant owners and onto labor. An employee at a restaurant earning only a wage needs to be paid that wage for every hour they are present, regardless of whether their are diners paying to be served. In modern times, tipped staff have been paid an extremely low hourly wage and rely on tips to make up the difference. But when customer traffic is low, they make little in tops while the business loses little in labor costs for having them there, such that those tipped staff assume a chunk of the business risk. I imagine that this is a tradition that dates back a long time, and perhaps the work was all tips and no wage.
The spread of tipping is essentially an outgrowth of that original sin, a shift of business risk to desperate employees dressed up as higher income.
It sucks but it's hard to conquer a mad fear.
sn9 | 3 hours ago
jzellis | 2 hours ago