I feel this way about everything I've seen from MNT: I love the idea, but the price for what you're getting is just too high for me, esp since the devices likely wouldn't be a daily driver.
The way I see it you're not just paying for the device; you're paying more because you desperately want to live in a world where it's possible to buy a laptop made by someone who doesn't despise you.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - Framework isn't perfect, but it's a damn site better than every single new hardware alternative I can find (unless an MNT is powerful enough for your daily driver, in which case, go for it!).
Lenovo ships spyware and is essentially owned by the Communist Party of China. Apple sent their CEO to give a gold plaque and a photo op to Trump.
Part of the reason the tech industry is so fucked right now is that the good people keep letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, which allows the bad people to keep tightening the ratchet the wrong way.
Framework regularly give a hardcore white nationalist (DHH) free hardware because he's popular. I don't want to support that - even the arbiter of of Satan's arsehole, Dell, doesn't do that.
And one that's flexible enough to upgrade and modify down the line.
Case in point, I've upgraded the CPU module in my original Reform twice and my Pocket Reform once (reusing one of the modules from the bigger one), and I've added both an LTE modem and a custom-designed backplate to the Pocket.
The Pocket Reform isn't the only mini laptop out there (GPD makes a few among other things) but it's the only one I've ever found that's quite so modular!
I think it makes a lot more sense if you do actually use it as your daily driver. I do, outside work - I'm typing this from the Pocket Reform that I use both outside the house and docked at my desk at home.
Granted, it's running an RK3588 module that I ordered pre-RAMpocalypse, so it wasn't quite as expensive as the same machine would be now.
I do agree, it does make more sense if you do, but even pre-RAMpocalypse, the pricing was quite high, at least in the States. I bought my Framework 13 around the same time, and it was also around 2.2k USD for 96GB of RAM and such.
Now the pricing has certainly shifted (I think the same machine is about double now), but for the performance and where I'd use it, I likely would just get a few RPis and call it a day.
Hard to say because I have it plugged in so often. It's definitely in the realm of "plug it in when you can" though, I'd estimate something like 3-4 hours, less if I'm really pushing it with a build. (But I'm usually plugged in if I'm doing that!) I turn off the keyboard backlighting if I really need to stretch it since that draws a surprising amount of power.
I have ordered some slightly larger cells (originally as replacements but it turns out I didn't strictly need them) to see if I can extend the runtime a bit. Haven't tried those out yet though. josch on the forums has tried much larger cells with success, but I haven't felt the need for that.
I don't disagree with what you're saying, although I have no insight into aluminum costs or reject rates.
This:
you’re paying someone to be sustainably passionate about something you want to exist that otherwise might not
is the part of the idea I love most. I was just very surprised by the magnitude of the difference for such a (relatively) simple case. I hope they have a large enough group of customers at this price to make it sustainable for them, because you are absolutely correct that I want this to exist.
I read the comments before following the link, and was confused by this comment: good desktop cases usually land in that 200-300 USD range.
However, this case is just two small chunks of aluminum, decidedly unlike a desktop case, which has with dozens of peculiarly shaped parts in a variety of materials.
I think the price, for this and for MNT's other products, mostly has to do with the (very!) small production runs. You can get economies of scale if you're making millions of the same part; not so much at this scale.
You and I must have entirely different standards for good desktop cases, then :-)
I usually buy one from my local Microcenter. And it's been a while, but I still see several for less than $150, some for quite a bit less, that I'd happily use for a build.
Nice hardware, but the pricing is way out of my league.... $300 case, $240 keyboard, $430 mainboard and then $300-800 for a cpu/ram module. Nope, this hardware market has completely lost me.
You can buy a used mini-desktop PC for less than $50 USD. They don't take up much space and are pretty quiet.
You can buy a new mini-PC for $400 or so.
My "main fileserver" at home is an old Chromebook (reflashed BIOS thanks to mrchromebox.tech), running Debian, which cost about $25 plus shipping. Low power, no noise (no fans), with a built-in screen and keyboard.
I've been following MNT for a while now (never had money to spare to actually buy something though) - I think this case is expensive even for them. But they do have very small production runs, which probably accounts for a lot of the price (I actually wonder what the numbers for a shop like that look like...). Releasing printable files is a nice touch though, and fits their dedication to FOSS.
I think they're not doing themselves any favors by comparing to the Framework Desktop and system76 Meerkat. Both of those are much higher-spec systems with a much higher power-budget, and so the comparison kind of makes MNT look bad. I think if they compared it to other devices in the 15-20 W class (probably other ARM-based ones), they might give off a much better impression.
Framework Desktop isn't the correct comparison. Framework sells a case for the Framework Laptop 13 mainboards for $40. That's exactly the form factor MNT is selling here... for 7x more.
Big advantage with the MNT is that you can swap out the processor. Framework has lots of upgradable parts but the CPU isn't one of them. MNT also gives you ARM, which positions it more against SBCs than laptops. Framework doesn't offer an ARM mainboard, though they do offer a RISC-V Mainboard in partnership with DeepComputing.
This thing just seems really expensive though. I don't see how you get a working computer for less than $1000.
hoistbypetard | 17 hours ago
I love the idea. But $299 for a case just seems wild to me!
lojikil | 16 hours ago
I feel this way about everything I've seen from MNT: I love the idea, but the price for what you're getting is just too high for me, esp since the devices likely wouldn't be a daily driver.
technomancy | 13 hours ago
The way I see it you're not just paying for the device; you're paying more because you desperately want to live in a world where it's possible to buy a laptop made by someone who doesn't despise you.
WilhelmVonWeiner | 8 hours ago
This is why I was so excited to buy a Framework, and why now I'm lost. MNT is great but just so steep.
duncan_bayne | 4 hours ago
I've said it before and I'll say it again - Framework isn't perfect, but it's a damn site better than every single new hardware alternative I can find (unless an MNT is powerful enough for your daily driver, in which case, go for it!).
Lenovo ships spyware and is essentially owned by the Communist Party of China. Apple sent their CEO to give a gold plaque and a photo op to Trump.
Part of the reason the tech industry is so fucked right now is that the good people keep letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, which allows the bad people to keep tightening the ratchet the wrong way.
WilhelmVonWeiner | 52 minutes ago
Framework regularly give a hardcore white nationalist (DHH) free hardware because he's popular. I don't want to support that - even the arbiter of of Satan's arsehole, Dell, doesn't do that.
cjs | 3 hours ago
the extra bummer is even if you have the cash, the lead time is harsh :(
I had a preorder for a Reform Next but gave up waiting...
jfred | 12 hours ago
And one that's flexible enough to upgrade and modify down the line.
Case in point, I've upgraded the CPU module in my original Reform twice and my Pocket Reform once (reusing one of the modules from the bigger one), and I've added both an LTE modem and a custom-designed backplate to the Pocket.
The Pocket Reform isn't the only mini laptop out there (GPD makes a few among other things) but it's the only one I've ever found that's quite so modular!
jfred | 15 hours ago
I think it makes a lot more sense if you do actually use it as your daily driver. I do, outside work - I'm typing this from the Pocket Reform that I use both outside the house and docked at my desk at home.
Granted, it's running an RK3588 module that I ordered pre-RAMpocalypse, so it wasn't quite as expensive as the same machine would be now.
lojikil | 15 hours ago
I do agree, it does make more sense if you do, but even pre-RAMpocalypse, the pricing was quite high, at least in the States. I bought my Framework 13 around the same time, and it was also around 2.2k USD for 96GB of RAM and such.
Now the pricing has certainly shifted (I think the same machine is about double now), but for the performance and where I'd use it, I likely would just get a few RPis and call it a day.
singpolyma | 15 hours ago
How do you find pocket reform battery life in practise?
jfred | 14 hours ago
Hard to say because I have it plugged in so often. It's definitely in the realm of "plug it in when you can" though, I'd estimate something like 3-4 hours, less if I'm really pushing it with a build. (But I'm usually plugged in if I'm doing that!) I turn off the keyboard backlighting if I really need to stretch it since that draws a surprising amount of power.
I have ordered some slightly larger cells (originally as replacements but it turns out I didn't strictly need them) to see if I can extend the runtime a bit. Haven't tried those out yet though. josch on the forums has tried much larger cells with success, but I haven't felt the need for that.
altano | 11 hours ago
But you’re not just paying for a case, are you?
And most importantly, you’re paying someone to be sustainably passionate about something you want to exist that otherwise might not!
hoistbypetard | 10 hours ago
I don't disagree with what you're saying, although I have no insight into aluminum costs or reject rates.
This:
is the part of the idea I love most. I was just very surprised by the magnitude of the difference for such a (relatively) simple case. I hope they have a large enough group of customers at this price to make it sustainable for them, because you are absolutely correct that I want this to exist.
nemith | 7 hours ago
Value isn't just the time and materials. It's the application of those and the value isn't here.
hjvt | 17 hours ago
I read the comments before following the link, and was confused by this comment: good desktop cases usually land in that 200-300 USD range.
However, this case is just two small chunks of aluminum, decidedly unlike a desktop case, which has with dozens of peculiarly shaped parts in a variety of materials.
jfred | 16 hours ago
I think the price, for this and for MNT's other products, mostly has to do with the (very!) small production runs. You can get economies of scale if you're making millions of the same part; not so much at this scale.
hoistbypetard | 17 hours ago
You and I must have entirely different standards for good desktop cases, then :-)
I usually buy one from my local Microcenter. And it's been a while, but I still see several for less than $150, some for quite a bit less, that I'd happily use for a build.
singpolyma | 15 hours ago
Yeah. I'm still considering this but spending as much as a framework desktop for under half the capability is quite a trade
sigio | 16 hours ago
Nice hardware, but the pricing is way out of my league.... $300 case, $240 keyboard, $430 mainboard and then $300-800 for a cpu/ram module. Nope, this hardware market has completely lost me.
ansible-rs | 9 hours ago
You can buy a used mini-desktop PC for less than $50 USD. They don't take up much space and are pretty quiet.
You can buy a new mini-PC for $400 or so.
My "main fileserver" at home is an old Chromebook (reflashed BIOS thanks to mrchromebox.tech), running Debian, which cost about $25 plus shipping. Low power, no noise (no fans), with a built-in screen and keyboard.
kolja | 17 hours ago
Here is the accompanying announcement post on Mastodon.
I've been following MNT for a while now (never had money to spare to actually buy something though) - I think this case is expensive even for them. But they do have very small production runs, which probably accounts for a lot of the price (I actually wonder what the numbers for a shop like that look like...). Releasing printable files is a nice touch though, and fits their dedication to FOSS.
muvlon | 14 hours ago
I think they're not doing themselves any favors by comparing to the Framework Desktop and system76 Meerkat. Both of those are much higher-spec systems with a much higher power-budget, and so the comparison kind of makes MNT look bad. I think if they compared it to other devices in the 15-20 W class (probably other ARM-based ones), they might give off a much better impression.
pbronez | 10 hours ago
Framework Desktop isn't the correct comparison. Framework sells a case for the Framework Laptop 13 mainboards for $40. That's exactly the form factor MNT is selling here... for 7x more.
Big advantage with the MNT is that you can swap out the processor. Framework has lots of upgradable parts but the CPU isn't one of them. MNT also gives you ARM, which positions it more against SBCs than laptops. Framework doesn't offer an ARM mainboard, though they do offer a RISC-V Mainboard in partnership with DeepComputing.
This thing just seems really expensive though. I don't see how you get a working computer for less than $1000.