I wanted to upgrade my air(gen4) but with these prices it's just not happening. Oh and no support for the perfectly fine apple pencil I already got with it is just....
Value/$ in iPad basically has not changed since 2022. Inflation (general and AI/antitrust-driven component shortages) has cancelled out technical gains.
I would not assume it is software-locked. Display controller on 120Hz ProMotion displays is more expensive. Also, the panel itself is likely cheaper LTPS vs. LTPO.
The question you I think should ask is who finds this value reasonable?. To which, I can only answer my myself who can’t see any reason to upgrade from my iPhone 15.
I'm on iPhone 13 and only reason I'd like to upgrade is my battery is poor now and because I have a small crack on the back glass, Apple requires me changing both the back glass and battery which is $500 CAD.
It's hard to even know what price to use to calculate the delta, since there are different processors with different memory capacities, different CPUs based on memory, and higher price for the nano-texture display.
But yeah, a top-of-the-line iPad mini costs well more than an MBA, which seems kind of nuts. Add on a keyboard case and Apple Pencil Pro and you're looking at $1,500.
That's a problem already solved by having a lower refresh rate, though. You can't get extra battery drain from 120hz when your device can only achieve 60hz.
The only genuine performance increase I could see is if you're using it for drawing/notes because the Apple Pencil samples at 240/s so you would see a difference in drawing smoothness between 60/120/240hz screens. This would mirror the use case in fast-paced and high action games - more info for your eyes sooner allowing better reaction times.
Also, isn't ProMotion just branded VRR? Allowing for lower battery use in static/low change applications?
There is an entire field of study dedicated to this sort of thing called Psychophysics. It’s hardly trivial. Perception isn’t an absolute measure of sensory input as it’s influenced by context, comparison, as well as prior experience. Improvements in one experience can change the standards by which we judge subsequent ones. These principles have had profound implications across entire industries. A good primer is the book Priceless: the hidden psychology of value by Poundstone.
And what is it being used for though? To better scroll instagram and various message app inboxes? We needed 120hz for this? I mean a lot of people including here on HN are just buying this to scroll x. It is an iphone after all, walled garden means that's about all the sort of things you can do with this thing.
It's not a trivial feature. The Class A surface on an iPad is the screen.
If you plan to look at moving things, like scrolling, which is a central part of using the device, 120fps makes the scrolling less blurry and therefore more pleasant to look at.
This is like asking why people have a hardon for cars with nicer materials for seats and interiors if a normal cheap plastic interior could pass all the same crash tests.
It is a real thing. If you experienced the shift from CRT to the first generation of LCD screens and the CRT bros are not moving to the new technology because it gives them headaches and the majority of people are OK with the refresh rates. The 60fps to 120fps perception is hard to explain.
Im usually big on refresh rates but this one doesn’t bother me. I move between 60hz iPads and iPhone to 120hz iPad Pros and my mind doesn’t register a difference between them.
I can see the 120hz nice scroll when I’m paying attention but I’m normal use on these devices I forget about it. Basically it wouldn’t be a dealbreaker for me but I agree it should probably be the standard
you don't need promotion if you're going to use it for movies, but OLED is a huge improvement in this regard.
the price is a bit high, but that's all apple products.
i do think this means a lot of android tablets on this form factor are going to start coming out with OLED screens as well though, which is good, as they will be much cheaper.
I think the Mini's primary use case that benefits a 120hz screen is art apps, but the artists I know would prefer OLED over 120hz. For entertainment, video is video, and games on tablets often lock to 30 by default to preserve battery life.
For the iPad Air (especially the 13" model!) I agree 100%.
Apple likes to slow roll features out. It's kind of a necessity when Wall Street expects you to put out a desirable hardware version every few years. Gotta protect that runway!
Hopefully as Apple's own N-series Wifi chips mature and get rolled into more products, they will include GPS/GNSS capabilities into the chips, as right now if you want that functionality you have to purchase the "Wi-Fi + Cellular" variant:
Edit: to perhaps make it more clear, I meant still sell a +Cellular variant with the C-series chips (or whatever), but move the GNSS functionality into the N-series chips. So you'd have a non-cellular and a cellular, but both would have GNSS.
It's part of it. Another part of the reason is patent related royalties that they have to pay to the likes of Qualcomm, Nokia, etc. for any device that has a working 5G stack inside of it. Apple actually has had their own 5G modem implementation for a few years now; they clearly have the technology to deliver this with a clean full in house chip design.
But any device that has that embedded would have some royalty overhead added to the BOM. Which is why they've always had ipads with and without 5G and have so far never really bothered with adding this on laptops (which actually would make a lot of sense from a technical point of view). Operators would probably love that because it's a nice up-sell opportunity on monthly subscriptions. And with soft sims there would not be a need for a hardware sim card.
For the same reason, you don't see this feature on many other laptops either. There are a few obviously but it's a less common feature than you'd expect given how important good connectivity is to most laptop users.
So the reason they have not released a +cellular MBP is down to them not wanting to make royalty payments? What do they care? They just roll that payment into the +cellular price bump. It's not like they are dipping into their own billion dollar cash on hand balance.
Do you have a better reason? I think the price difference is probably too high to justify the feature. I don't see any technical reason why they wouldn't do this. But patent royalties and additional overhead related to device certification would definitely add some complexity and cost.
No, but there's a lot of examples of "I don't have a better reason" regarding Apple decisions. I know that there's a lot of bad blood between Apple and Nvidia hence AMD GPUs every where before the M-series chips. Clearly, they are tired of of their cellular vendors, otherwise they would not have developed their own chips. But they already have the cellular relation for the iPhone/iPads, so what would extending that to allow MBP inclusion mean that makes it a non-starter for Apple?
I can only speculate. But my guess is that they don't anticipate additional mac sales if they were to ship this feature. So, the only reason to do this for them would be if it would bring in more revenue. And given the cost overhead related to patents that I outlined, it might just not be that interesting. My guess is that a lot of the agreements they have for this might cover iphones and ipads but not laptops.
It's not just Apple. 5G stacks in laptop are just very uncommon. Most vendors seem to independently come to the conclusion that they are better off not bundling that. Of course the difference is that Apple now has their own modems and chips for this. Which might change things but so far hasn't.
The reasons Apple want to vertically integrate everything and own it are easier to grasp: chips, firmware and software made by them are easier to control and upgrade by them. With qualcomm, they are basically getting them, their development teams, their supply chains for chips on the critical path to shipping products. And they are outsourcing what is a pretty major part of the whole phone experience to a third party.
Apple has been working on their own 5G modem for many years before they shipped it. I don't know for sure but I would not be surprised if efforts for that started when Steve Jobs was still alive even. This was always the logical move for them to make as soon as they got the idea of doing their own chipsets for their phones.
I would say this is the main reason, given tethering has caps, but maybe also how cell tower capacity probably would not do great with a whole new product market segment that's also high-bandwidth during the LTE days. With 5G's promise of increased capacity and 6G on the way, maybe it'll be possible soon enough.
> The buyer is also signing up for a monthly payment. So clearly they have the cash to make an “extra monthly payment” or two up front.
I know of pilots who buy the +Cellular simply for GNSS and do not get a separate plan.
Charging more for the C-series hardware is understandable, but if there's enough of a 'transistor budget' it would be nice for the GNSS functionality to be more universal (since the N-series seems to be going into everything).
I would happily give up on the entire AI industry in exchange for more affordable hardware. No hesitation. The worldwide inflation resulting from the AI rollout is shameful to say it politely
I've thought a lot about that actually. I have a number of hardware purchases I'd like to make but I'm delaying due to the insane prices. That said, would I give up LLMs for the prior prices? No. Prices will come down eventually once more factories come online (it's just slow to bring up a new factory/fab, especially for RAM) and LLMs are such an awesome tool that I'll take the short-term pain of higher hardware.
That’s if you’re considering your personal situation. The increase in hardware is impacting every single institution that needs computers. Smaller hardware companies with low margins cannot operate in the current situation. That means less consumer choices, new projects delayed or cancelled. The impact on less developed countries is of course exacerbated. Hospitals, schools, government agencies are getting less for the same level of spending. And of course that results in worst services, worst infrastructure, more expensive services and goods
Maybe institutions and companies are gonna have to get smarter at making use of stuff that they have instead of just churning thru hardware. It's hard to see it being sustainable anyway to be constantly turning over hardware every few years if not yearly. In a way, this chilling of consumerism is kinda neat.
Luckily absolute performance still exists, it's just that we've normalized shipping less efficient software slopped out because there'll probably be new silicon in a few years so it doesn't matter.
Commodity hardware is plenty powerful and can be taken advantage of should prices signal efficiency is important again.
It's especially bad if you're non-American with multiple TVs.
e.g. I've got three screens in my house (office TV, living room TV, basement projector) in Canada — upgrading to the latest Apple TV on each of them would cost me $1,287.
I have two televisions - living room TV with an AppleTV and bedroom TV with some Roku device. I'm going to buy the new AppleTV and put it in the living room, then move that AppleTV to the bedroom, then recycle the Roku (finally, I hate that thing).
It should be less expensive but I rely on it (cancelled cable TV and just have streaming now) and so I'm just happy they are still working on it.
Depending on what you subscribe to, streaming services are now as expensive (if not more) than cable was if you got premium channels. I hear also Disney will add ads to all tiers as well.
This is a disappointment. Apple has so much potential with iPad minis, but they consistently hold back simply because they don’t want to cannibalize their pro models.
Ok, how is this a disappointment - what does it not have that the pro does that you're seeking? To me, this just looks like a large phone without cellular. Not sure I'd want this, as I already have a large phone - good enough.
That's the whole iPad line. No multi-user because they don't want families to buy only one iPad, no support for running apps outside of the app store, etc.
What isn't smooth is the separation between the iPad and iPhone teams. I'm pretty sure new things being visited on the Duo such as the split keyboard interface have already been tried on the iPad side.
The iPhone Air is larger than an iPhone 17 in height and width. Every non-plus/max iPhone since the 13 Mini came out is smaller than the Air in height and width. Wouldn't they be a more logical upgrade than the Air?
The main body of the iPhone Air is thinner, of course, but including the camera bulge, I think it's thicker than all non-pro iPhones up to the 16.
Is there something about making the main body thinner that makes the iPhone Air more comfortable to hold than other smaller phones? Is it the weight? The 17e is only 4 g heavier than the Air, and the 16e is only 2 g heavier.
I have never been interested in the Air because of the size, so I can't even remember if I have picked one up in an Apple Store.
Can definitely attest to this. When I was doing my PPL I had an iPad that had a built-in cellular modem loaded with ForeFlight for GPS positioning mounted to the inside of the cessna's window.
I've been hoping for a water and dust resistant tablet for use in the pottery studio for a while (for photographing work in progress, cataloguing glaze ingredients, taking notes, etc), as it's a wet and dirty environment, but the price kills all interest.
And with a 1-nit minimum brightness, iPad mini is even more suitable for dim environments, from users reading in bed at night to pilots checking their electronic flight bag in the cockpit.
As per other comments, my guess is somewhere between 1% and 5% of ipad mini sales are to pilots. It's gotta be significant or they wouldn't drop a line that in their main copy!
I like using my 6th gen as an erader. With the right color settings the screen doesn’t fatigue me, and it’s nice to be able to read from any source (kindle, Apple Books, Libby, a pdf, etc).
It makes no sense to make the devices so thin and then having a fat camera. This requires a cover to equalize the size with the camera for haptic reasons. Better use this space for other stuff like larger batteries and make the device the same thickness everywhere.
Density is insanely highly correlated with the perception of premium quality. No one’s increasing the volume of premium devices beyond what’s needed to hold components.
Not sure about the iPad Mini, but I've really only seen the bigger iPads with a case. There's just so much screen to damage, and you do really want some kind of way to prop up the bigger iPads. I very rarely remove my iPad Pro from its keyboard case.
> In reality the back was curved, and they took pictures from an angle that only showed off the edge of the screen and not how far back it curved
You only see the thickness at the back from an angle where you can't actually use the computer (and for many people, that whole angle is going to be against the wall). This is the good kind of design - making something appear beautiful without compromising the core function.
I'm distinctly less convinced about ever-thinner mobile devices that I immediately have to slap a case on...
The older iMacs that were the same thickness all the way across, they still looked good. Except they were some of the best machines to service. Literally two screws in the bottom, the whole thing split in half, and your hard drive, memory and other components were right there. I worked on tons of them and they were fantastic. It saved people money in the long run when they needed an upgrade because it took less time. Even replacing the screen or logic board in them was a piece of cake.
I presume it is a flattering angle instead of a falsified image. The camera bump is near the one large button, which was furthest from the camera when they rotate it, so the iPad could have been angled slightly to hide the bump. Maybe someone can try to reproduce it after it comes out to see if it is a false image.
this is directly side-on. they've def removed the camera bump. In the initial animation at the top where the hand grabs it too. the bump is very clear in shots later!
wait... could they have hidden it under the hand? and why does that person's thumb seem extra long?! the more I look at this the less I understand it.
Perspective is still at play. At arms length, on my phone, if I make it so the flat surface is completely aligned with my center of vision, the bottom side covers at least 1mm of whatever is on the underside. The closer one gets to the phone, the more pronounced the effect.
The video keeps triggering my sense of seeing CGI, but the hiding effect on display can absolutely be accomplished in camera.
I would assume, however, that they didn't "fake" it - that they instead chose a filming position and lens such that camera was obscured behind the edge of the device (the edge facing the viewer is the far side from the camera). Bit of trickery for sure though.
> I would assume, however, that they didn't "fake" it - that they instead chose a filming position and lens such that camera was obscured behind the edge of the device
I’d suspect the same. From that angle, the camera bump is on the opposite edge; when I hold my iPad Air in the same position, the camera bump is also just about hidden.
That being said, I’d also suspect that Apple chose that angle deliberately.
Historically, Apple used real photos and video for marketing material, only lit and polished to perfection to create a sort of hyper-real effect. Nowadays, who knows.
But don't you just need a big camera on your giant tablet? How will you ever manage if you don't have a nice camera on both sides of all your handheld devices? /s
If they put the tiny "front-facing" camera pointed out the back it would be enough for the vast majority of people I imagine.
That's the thing - I genuinely don't understand the user or usage Venn diagram : when and who will 1. Have an expensive ipad with them and require a good big camera, but 2. Not have an equivalently competent phone with them?
Don't get me wrong, I understand it happens - back when I did wedding photography, one of my massive pet peeves were the uncles and grandparents who stepped into the aisle with their massive tablets just as bride is starting her walk... But I do not understand it at all :-/.
I'd absolutely happily completely kill the rear facing tablet camera. I've had at least a dozen android and ipad tablets and I genuinely don't think I took a single photo with them - it'd feel weird and awkward and so ostentious.
(As always as a consumer, clearly I'm in minority here :-})
When I use the rear camera, it's part of a feature of some other app that clearly makes sense to use as a tablet. You're bogged down as it being used as a primary camera as a photographer. There are other needs for cameras other than portraits. Using the rear camera in an AR mode is quite handy in apps.
Since basically everybody uses a case anyways, the important factors are weight and width with the case on. This design makes both of those significantly smaller than your suggestion.
The argument is most people use a case regardless, so if it were the same thickness across the device, the iPad would be considerably thicker once in a case. That and weight. I don’t use cases so it bothers me too, but it does make some sense.
It's still very strange how much work goes into the materials for the case and the ergonomics and weight of holding the devices without a case just to assume everyone will put it in a case. I'm with you on iPads, they get too heavy/thick for their primary uses once in a case. The phones I sort of get but I still think it ruins a lot of the aesthetic choices they make about the case design.
I find it annoying too, I assume it's because thin and light devices sell more (both in promo photos and when used in Apple stores).
My mum's Samsung S23 Ultra has a ridiculous camera bump and rocks back and forth when you use it, even with some thinner cases. You need a super thick case for it to stay stable.
I've always thought this too. An iPad with an integrated case would be able to fill the entire flat back area with a battery, and just have rubber on the edges where impact protection is needed. The existing design is really optimized around having an impressive experience in the store when holding an uncased product, before you inevitably cover it.
Why would you want an integrated case? The soft impact absorbing materials degrade much faster than the aluminum. Look at the average ipad users case and it's falling to pieces, you don't want that permanently fixed to the device.
There's also many users who don't need a case. A lot of ipads are POS systems that are fixed to the bench so they don't need a case either.
> Why would you want an integrated case? The soft impact absorbing materials degrade much faster than the aluminum.
Given that the impact-absorbing parts could be [0]
...rubber on the edges where impact protection is needed.
and could obviously be designed to be replaceable, either by a handy user or an Apple Technician, why wouldn't you want Apple to design the feel and balance of a device with a case that has built-in impact protection?
Apple's decision to make most of its handhelds out of various grades of "fragililum" has boggled my mind since they sold the first iPhone with an easily-shattered glass back. That choice makes sense for a conspicuous status symbol that people are going to take very good care of... but most folks either end up with one with damage that makes plain how theirs is not the kind of life that makes that possible, or they have installed some aftermarket shell that ruins the effect by covering up the conspicuously fragile part of the hardware.
WAT. Just because you do not does not mean you get to dictate how others can use it. I know lots of people that use the rear camera on iPads. I'm one of them.
then everything would be just tiptoeing and nothing would be interesting.... it's not like someone saying that will actually cause Apple to get rid of it
Yes they are just whining into the void about something they can’t change. Great use of everyone’s time all around.
More likely though they’re trying to signal their membership to the in-group that’s always circle jerking on every iPhone/iPad post about SD cards, removable battery, thick small phone, flush camera, etc.
To be fair, the iPad mini is a way better form-factor for camera use than any of the big iPads. I think the only time I've ever used the rear camera on the 12" iPad was to scan a document...
Yeah it's infuriating. I love how even Apple are embarrassed by it, since in the first two animations of people holding and rotating the device they've left off the camera bump, making it look smooth flat.
If they levelled it out you could surely fit a far larger battery in it too. I'd far rather have a device 1.5mm thicker with a battery lifespan twice as long and no silly bump on it.
I have a hard time believing the camera bump isn't the result of intensive consumer psychology experiments. Setting a bare apple device down on a flat surface feels like chair with a leg sawed off. They need you to buy the accessories. This is part of making the ecosystem viable.
Half the time their mid-year fresh is just a new color, with a huge marketing push. If everyone has a case, colors become a moot point.
I also don’t think I’ve ever seen an Apple exec use a case, as it would imply the phones are durable and a case is needed, which they don’t want to convey. (Bumpers for antenna-gate aside)
The correct answer. The camera bump is intentional and so is building phones that aren't resilient to drops out of the box. What do you mean I can't have a phone with rubber bumpers on the corners?
I would be content if they'd stop making phones slippier than a wet bar of soap. My Pixel 8a is ridiculous, I don't know how they do it. If you have dry hands, it's nearly impossible to hold on to.
Yeah, I added a boring case on day 1 and would have trouble describing the feel of the bare device right now.
Found one on Amazon so I dodge Google's exorbitant plastic markup, and it is a relatively minimalist wrap that smooths out the camera bump and makes it more grippy in hand, in pockets, and on flat surfaces.
The behavior of those slippery phones in pockets is almost the bigger gripe to me. Like they are a new class of motion amplifier, trying to rotate and squirt their way out at the slightest twitch.
The curvature on the back of those is such that it's harder to rotate into a position so the thumb can hit the right button than a flat surface would be.
It also means that resting it on the arm of a recliner produces about the same result as just dropping it into the void to begin with: It's going to wind up there either way.
Tangentially related: this is the funniest rant about this "devices with a fat camera bump that don't lay flat" rant that exists: "Why?" - Lazy Posy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP7lYuyGTmg
More material, bigger battery = heavier device. For something this size I figure people want something they can comfortably hold in one hand for a session.
Perhaps if they put a very small lip around the camera lens and a physical bump on the other side so the device doesn't rock, at least it would be symmetrical and the glass would be slightly less prone to surface contact.
The cheapest configuration of the original model was $329 in 2012 [0]. Even when corrected for inflation, that would still be less than $500 in today's money -- so quite a bit less than $700!
Is the comparison unfair because today's model is much more powerful than the one from 14 years ago? Perhaps. But perhaps it shouldn't be compared to the past, but to its relative competitors?
Not really unfair, as the basic use case is still the same for either model.
A toilet from a hundred years ago in the same product tier serves the same function as one today. Old models were also more expensive when adjusted for inflation, but today's toilets can tackle more turds with less water.
The alternative approach leads to those "costs have dropped by 7 orders of magnitude in the last 50 years" style of deceptive graphs popular among people with an agenda to insist AI memory price inflation isn't a real problem.
On the plus side, devices are designed to last longer, be more repairable and be updated for longer than they were in 2012.
The upfront cost of a device is less important than the total cost of ownership, which highly depends on the lifespan of the device. An ipad that lasts 2.5 years needs to be half the price of one that lasts 5 years.
Sure, but that tells you that the upgraded specs and pricing is a conscious decision made by Apple, not something forced by AI. Making an entry-level small screen equivalent of the 11-inch iPad is always an option. They’re choosing not to take it.
Memory and storage is expensive as hell, so they're gonna ration it for their more expensive devices.
Same reason this year, for the first time ever, Apple announced their new Pro phones (and the ultra-expensive Duo) but no base-model iPhone 18. They're paying more for memory so they're gonna use it on the devices where they make more on a sale.
Right. The prices are up for Nvidia’s benefit (and Micron, Sandisk by extension).
I know it’s now a trope to say “an incoming Democratic Congress should…” but there are really serious questions to ask about the means by which Nvidia is securing such a radically high value buy-and-hold strategy, and whether it amounts to deceptive channel stuffing.
The whole tech industry is using apparent demand for Blackwell GPUs as a proxy for AI demand, when this is a wholly broken metric because Nvidia seems to be gaming it, and everyone (consumer and business alike) is paying more as a result.
More like they were not able to find a pretext to sell it for more.
I can open my local store and will see shitty 8/128 Android tablets for less than 150 euro. If memorypocalypse was the main reason for pricing new ipad mini as it is, the budget tablet segment would be completely dead because manufacturers just wouldn't be able to afford memory at all.
The whole supply demand spherical cow model of capitalism really breaks down when suppliers decide they'd collectively use their cartel to not engage in demand and instead gouge prices.
It doesn't, capitalism is the free association without coercsion. When the government can mandate that you cannot sell certain GPUs to customers in specific areas or that your model is too scary and you must shut it down and can give or take government contracts that are work hundreds of millions or billions of dollars, and the federal reserve will bail out the banks If they make mistakes, you have a crony capitalist environment that has very little to do with the free market.
I'm shocked Apple haven't acquired Procreate yet. It's nearly always in iPad marketing material. Personally I know so many artists who've bought iPads, and the only app they have installed is Procreate.
It’s possible they simply don’t want to sell. ProCreate parent company is extremely successful on its own, it’s possible being part of Apple wouldn’t bring anything to the table for them. Looking at some apps Apple acquired it’s not clear that being part of a mega corporation benefits creative tools.
OLED is really good for media consumption, and IMO, this form factor is one of the best for carrying around in trips and watching movies on the car/plane/train/etc.
But the price is a bit high, that's the history of Apple though. On the other hand, I think this particular screen is probably going to be sourced by cheaper small android tablets at a much more competitive price, and if you're using it for media consumption, there's no difference between an Apple and an Android tablet.
They are working on it (CXMT for RAM and YMTC for NAND flash) but not having access to ASML’s EUV lithography equipment hobbles them.
The US government is also trying to kneecap them, threatening Apple with tariffs if they went ahead with YMTC storage, even if only for the Chinese market.
They are thus primarily focusing on the Chinese market, but if they weren’t there, DRAM and flash is a global commodity market and prices would have gone up even more insanely than today.
How would an OLED screen be an improvement over an ipad 8th generation? I'm debating on what to upgrade to but I mainly use my ipad for reading comics nowadays. Movies/TV are for the big screen.
I own no iPads but all my screens are OLED and I would never buy anything else. The true black is an absolute killer feature. It makes the device just a glowing wonder at night, magical feeling, no way to overstate it.
OLED + dark mode after sundown are awesome. On Android we also get the extra dim mode which makes it perfect for lights-out.
I use GrapheneOS on my Pixel and it gets very dim. Also, I have the night mode (orange tint) cranked way up - something that the stock OS should allow you to do.
And furthermore Apple’s OLED screens tend to have more color reproduction issues. I don’t have an iPad any more but gather a group of people using OLED iPhones. Use light mode and open the Settings app at the same time. You will see that different OLED screens render the same white menu items differently. Some will have a yellowish tint, others an unpleasant green tint. This happens regardless of whether one turns on or off TrueTone. This has been going on since the very first OLED iPhones. The old LCD iPhones never had this problem. It is highly subjective but it bothers me way more than a 60Hz refresh rate.
In general display technologies are highly subjective. Besides LCD versus OLED, there are people who love nano texture and there are people who hate them. There are people who absolutely need 120Hz and there are people who can’t tell the difference between 60Hz and 120Hz. It’s a shame that we can’t customize the display technology exactly as we want.
Nano texture was the entire reason I upgraded to an iPad Pro M4. The camera on the long edge is a major regression as far as I am concerned, however. The only drawback is fingerprints are harder to remove,you really need that special microfiber cloth or one of the cheap Chinese clones.
It's not. OLED screens use PWM, i.e. they are switching to almost black 256 times a second. That's tiresome for the eyes. Especially when you read from it with artificial lighting which is dim, that makes those black periods long and noticeable. Yes, recent iPhones sometimes don't go full black, but that's only for near-100% brightness.
Last iPad Mini I bought in 2015 was 32gb for $379CAD, one today 11 years later is $949CAD for 128gb, 2.5x over 10 years, I know there is different tech, inflation and times are different but I always though the mini as the budget option, now with this recent releases Apple is just going for: it's expensive because that's the only way we can keep growing....
Luxury inflation is more than normal inflation, but this isn't a luxury even though it's not necessary, and the price isn't going up due to the steady cause of inflation (money creation).
Their budget iPad I think got 70% increased in price a couple of months ago. I was planning to upgrade my iPad mini to the normal 11inch iPad and when I checked the price it was nowhere near the price I remembered I last saw it.
The mini is not the budget option, at least not anymore. The base 11" iPad starts at $450 in the US (and can often be found on sale for less). It is the cost-down with lower-spec components, and is probably a more compelling product for the consumer looking for the cheapest iPad option than a cost-down mini would be.
I wish this was somehow listed as a separate line item with the price, assuming prices will normalize at some point. I don’t want these prices to be considered the new normal, even after memory prices come down. I think transparency in the pricing would help with that.
I don’t see homeview being worth it unless they allow app installs. $300 for a display that shows photos and smart home controls is kinda pointless. You can’t even put up your home assistant dashboard on it.
I think there will be be app integration, but hopefully no App Store. We know that apps can work on HomeView using CarPlay. Not sure that is sufficient long term, perhaps just to jump start things. They may need to enhance that library to allow more kinds of apps to work with HomeView.
Right now, I think they are bringing out an MVP and waiting to see how people react to it and what kinds of things turn out to be useful. When they launched the Watch, no one was sure what kinds of things we would want to do on it. It took a while to see what was useful. I think a model where apps on your phone provide HomeView widgets like the Watch might be better than writing apps specifically for such a device.
Sure, but it’s weird to consider a device to be good value when the reason for that value is features you hope will launch in future updates maybe years down the line.
The homeview is DOA, I'm sorry. Who is the target for this?
There is no app store. I mean maybe they will add one later, but still until that happens I really dont see any use case besides setting some kitchen timers.
Yes, smart home is a thing, but tons of people need apps like Hue or Shelly to control their setup.
> This will make sure my kids can FaceTime their grandparents whenever they want
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that charged iPads are not the primary constraint here. If you can't trust them to keep their iPads charged, there's a good chance that you'll come back in a year and the HomeView hasn't left the setup screen, or is sitting in a box somewhere.
If you needed a mini tablet you would cause there's practically zero competition
I bought the new 8 inch Alexa tablet the other day, and the price was decent but it's a piece of shit. I only wanted it for putting on a video in bed while I fall asleep but it can't even do that because when you drop the brightness to minimum, the display randomly turns off (not actually locking the screen, it's still running the app and active, you can touch stuff you can't see, but the pixels are turned off)
I've seen some TVs do that, turn off the screen when it gets dark (not talking OLED). Often takes too long and is a nuisance. There's a similar awful gimmick with speakers turning off when quiet, but it results in sound cutting out because it's too slow. I've seen some monitors that even try to do this when using headphones through them.
The base iPhone 17 has a 120 Hz display, I suspect they are going to drip feed it through their products as a cheap spec bump (vs adding extra RAM or storage).
Has any non pro consumer ever noticed a display greater than 60 hz. I can barely get the regular people in my life to nice anything above 30 hz or turning off motion smoothing. I really don't see how any of this stuff matters for most people
You don't have to know what Hz is to see that scrolling on some devices is smooth and on other (coug..Apple) devices is choppy. 60Hz feels like a decade old phone.
Phones today have plenty of power to generate 120 screens per seconds. Capping them with a screen is a terrible idea. Smooth form a decade ago isn't the same as smooth of today.
20 years ago I was gaming at 30fps and called it smooth. Now 120Hz feels like bare minimum.
I got a Pixel 7 Pro for work, and it's so laggy. Idk what a 120hz display is for when stock apps like Google Maps are running at like 30fps. I thought maybe some corp security stuff was slowing it down, but I showed it to people at work who have only ever used Android, and they thought it was normal.
Outdated comparison now that Liquid Glass is lagging my phone.
I just tried it on my iPhone right now, and yeah, something seems wrong. Switching from 120Hz to 60Hz on my Mac, I can barely tell. On the iPhone, 60Hz feels more like 30Hz.
I'm sure there is a point of diminishing returns for display refresh rates, but I can tell you from experience that it is definitely higher than 60hz. 90hz feels meaningfully smoother (on a Steam deck), and 120/144hz (on a desktop monitor in my case) feels smoother than that. Even mouse input latency is perceptibly lower. I've never used a display faster than 144hz but I honestly would not be surprised to discover that one can still tell the difference well past 144hz.
60fps is basically fine as long as you are unaware that it can be any better, but once you find out you are forever spoiled by the knowledge.
Yup. For me up until 90/100ish it's a pretty significant improvement all the way up and after that I don't know if I could notice outside of a fast game or wiggling the cursor over a contrasting color
I'm sure a lot of people now would feel odd if you gave them a 60Hz phone after high refresh has become so common, even if they don't pay conscious attention to that kind of stuff
I'm sure mouse latency is a big issue for iPad Mini users.
I know there's a sizable contingent of people who just think a bigger number is better, but realistically this is a device for passively consuming text and video content that is typically around 30 fps anyway. Why waste the battery power on faster refresh?
The ProMotion screens have variable refresh rate depending on the content displayed. 10Hz to 120Hz for iPhones and 24Hz to 120Hz for iPads. So in theory the power consumption should be even better than a regular screen for static content like reading text.
Not sure about iPads, but going from a pixel 3 to a pixel 5 made me feel like my pixel 3 was broken. Xr to 16 pro was similar, but that is because Xr was legit broken.
> Does the page look and feel glued to your finger as you scroll?
Yes, for me issues with apps have mainly been in poorly optimized code causing lag, slow loading and the like. The 60hz/120hz thing has never really been a practical issue.
That argument goes the other way though? The only reason TV manufacturers would leave frame interpolation on by default is that a decent chunk of people notice, those people care, and most of the people who notice are "normal people" who aren't repulsed by it.
If only "pro consumers" noticed or cared... well, those "pro consumers" are the ones who think it looks like shit and would rather have a TV without it.
Nobody ever wanted a >60Hz display, but once you've used one it's hard to go back. It's like having a higher-performance car. You're now stuck with paying more just for baseline happiness.
It's probably not actually as hard to go back as we think it is, but holding on to stuff is in our genes.
I keep hearing this all the time, and I think this is an absolutely massive overstatement that you cannot go back to 60 hz after experiencing high refresh rates.
My personal experience is that I do notice the difference - for like a minute - and then I adjust and never care anymore.
I think Apple has held off 120 Hz for so long precisely because the average person gets a bit of a jolt of "this device is fast, it runs so smooth compared to..." they can't quite immediately place until someone explains it's the refresh rate.
Without this, it'd be very hard for an average user to "feel" a performance difference between an A18 Pro in the Neo and say as far as the M5 Max in a MacBook Pro unless they had a "special" use case which really needed the extra CPU/GPU cores.
Of course, they can't stay forever on that. E.g. with the iPhone 17 they finally flipped the non-Pro over. Probably because it was starting to make the iPhone seem sluggish/stuttery compared to other phones more than it was making the iPhone 18 seem fast. Tablets have never seemed to be as fierce a market in terms of your average Joe comparing them, but I'd expect the same switch to being a liability instead of a tool will happen there as well (if they aren't already late to the game).
I think they made iOS run slower for 60Hz devices. Like 2-3 version ago they changed all the animations and it makes it unbearable to use my iPHone 17 on 60Hz when I used to prefer running my old Samsungs on 60Hz several years ago.
Someone was complaining to me that Apple took a long time to add 120 Hz displays to phones. I didn't even know what my iPhone had, turns out it's 60 Hz cause it's a 12 mini. I've used 120 Hz displays before. Cannot tell the difference.
Some people are born with nervous systems which aren’t capable of noticing the difference, just like there are people who can’t see better than 20/20 no matter how good their optical acuity is.
Thanks for the link, checked it and well even side by side on my mbp, the difference is not that super obvious. 30 to 60 fps is very obvious and night and day. 60 fps and 120 fps, I only notice the difference side by side if I pay attention...
But maybe it's because I'm 40+ with relatively bad eye vision and 20 years earlier I'd be noticing the difference much more.. But I'd say going from 1080p to 4k was a lot more obvious than that...
If something is not noticeable when it gets "better", but it leads people to notice other stuff is "worse" over time, then I'd argue it's not actually a good thing to get.
Imagine if someone said "this food won't really taste better to you when you first eat it, but after 6 months you'll find other food tastes worse". To me, this would not be a selling point.
I've often had new phones that are 'faster' but I barely notice the fastness until I go back to my old phone and realise that my finger-memory needs adapting because things take just a bit longer to load.
That's not been my experience with the refresh rates, and it's not what GP and GGP said either. I have a 13 mini and have bought both 16 and Air. I kept them for 2 weeks and then returned.
When I got the phones, I did not notice any benefit related to screen refresh. I also did not notice any detriment when I went back to my 13 mini after two weeks on a 120 Hz screen.
But if it was as GP said, and it's only something you notice when you go back to a "lesser" screen, then that would not be a selling point in my book.
I always wondered why Windows users didn't notice the jagged text in 2001 and see a Mac as obviously better. You don't know what you aren't missing until it's gone.
I didn't know how bad TV looked in the 90s. We watched a low res 19 inch TV from across the room. Did moving to HD make any real difference in our lives? Do we really enjoy TV that much more? Once the excitement wears off about 20 minutes into watching it, its still the same thing. If the story is good, you get into it either way and forget what you're watching it on.
Depends on the content. When people are talking in a nondescript (thing the "12 Angry Men" movie), SD is quite fine. Now compare it to Blade Runner or Scarface. Those movies absolutely benefit from more detail and colors.
Yes, I definitely remember noticing how much better TV was when we moved from 20" sets from last century to HD LCDs (and then much larger/higher-res LCDs) over the last 25 years.
And I would disagree that only the story matters. If that were the case, people wouldn't go to the theater (a trend that has started happening in the last 15 years as people have been able to rig their living rooms to give an experience that is nearly theater quality, especially when considering cost and convenience. When we had 20" TVs, they were no substitute for going to the movies.
People had giant TV’s in the past as well. They are cheaper now.
Either way, a larger screen is not the same improvement as higher resolution. And more importantly, the reason people may not go to the movies when they have a home theater system is partly due to justifying the cost of the theater system.
It's the same dynamic as with how we optimize for web pages speed. People don't immediately think that website responding 200ms faster is better. But they enjoy the experience more anyway (even if at some subconscious level) and they end up liking it more and spending more time with it.
With food also you could be incrementally getting better and better food and when you then try v1 it would taste bad.
It seems that we might also be noticing slight degradation more than slight improvement in general? No idea if that's true.
I think this varies a lot from person to person. I find the effect to be incredibly subtle - one of my monitors reset it self to 60hz a while back, and I didn't catch the problem for days.
> I can barely get the regular people in my life to nice anything above 30 hz or turning off motion smoothing. I really don't see how any of this stuff matters for most people
"I don't have an issue with it, so most people also don't have an issue with it"
It happens when someone overestimates how much other people agree with them, assuming that their own personal beliefs, values, or experiences are the default for everyone else.
Reading comprehension is important. There was no inverse take here. Just pointing out anecdotal evidence isn't enough to draw a conclusion over a larger sample size.
For doomscrolling or watching videos it makes little difference. For an iPad that advertises drawing with the pencil, the latency of the brushstroke is a massive difference between the two. The more immediate feedback unlocks more confidence and reduces a lot of friction.
From what I can tell, it's the thing they notice more than almost anything else. I was recently shopping for a new phone and my brother, who has no interest in tech, kept telling me I need to get the one with it (I forgot the exact term he used, it wasn't 120hz admittedly).
High refresh rate displays are an interesting feature because most users do not notice the difference.
I can spot a 60Hz display from jiggling the mouse pointer for a second.
I’ve also done side-by-side comparisons of full screen scrolling on 60Hz and 120Hz screens for less technical people who could barely perceive a difference when I was pointing it out, but it took some time to get them to see it.
MKBHD (YouTube tech video and reviewer) talks about this a lot: It’s highly valuable to people like you and me who are attuned to the performance of our devices, but most people don’t notice. Or care!
I would appreciate high Hz displays everywhere, but I admit that Apple has probably made the right consumer choice tradeoff to compromise on refresh rate for these lower end devices where minimum cost and maximum battery life are the two most important features for those who buy them.
I think another thing to keep in mind is that there’s probably an element of sensory adaptation at play here. Like when you wear a watch: you notice it at first, and then you don’t notice it on your wrist anymore.
So if you’re actively moving between a high-refresh-rate device (like a lot of people here with their 144hz monitors) and then one with a lower refresh rate, you’re probably more sensitive (and potentially annoyed) by the discrepancy.
You will notice this as soon as you use a low dpi device again for any length of time. First 10 minutes you see the pixels. After that you stop seeing the pixels.
Viewing distance plays a factor too. I realized 4k tvs are useless to me because I can't perceive 1080p pixels unless I'm comparison shopping in a TV show room from 2 feet away (probably why they don't let you experience appropriate TV viewing distances in these spaces in the first place).
I'm one of those who can't spot a difference. I've tried to with the mouse trick or scrolling and I just can't see it. I can see the difference between 30fps and 60fps but anything north of 60fps is imperceptible to me. Maybe it's from a lifetime of gaming on toaster specs where I'd scarcely break 25fps.
While I agree 100%, I'm more interested in the variable refresh down to 1hz that comes with 'Promotion' to save on battery when viewing lots of static text.
If you give me a choice between buttery smooth >60Hz refresh rate animations, and better battery life, I'll choose the battery life 100% of the time. But that's just me. But then again, with the insides of a typical tablet being 90% battery these days (along with a little motherboard along one edge) maybe that's all a nonissue. Phones, on the other hand... my unambitious, cheap (from when you could still get half decent cheap phones) one goes two days on a charge easily, whereas a friend with an "advanced" phone struggles to get through one day with it, often running out during all-day outdoor adventures. Tradeoffs!
What's magical about 60 there? I'd naively think you'd just want VRR and some power saving render rate behavior rather than a fixed target framerate equal to the max framerate for all types of content all the time. The latter gives you neither good power saving nor good experience in most combinations.
Look at Apple’s own smartphone lineup. The Pro models with 120Hz screens get better battery life than the low end iPhone models.
You could make up for the difference in battery life with an almost undetectable amount of extra battery capacity from both a cost and size standpoint.
I think you missed the point of their comment. The point is they are reducing features (marginal cost difference for them) to provide a worse experience for a cheaper model. I'm pretty sure it's less complicated to have a shared manufacturing process with fewer SKUs than to have two separate displays (if they're even different and not just software locked).
Do you think they couldn't add a refresh rate control to the device if you wanted to have lower battery? They already have variable refresh rate implemented, a much harder problem.
I remember the age of when Intel used to lock down hardware multipliers for overclocking behind the K versions, and GPUs did too. This is a well known practice, and Apple is not above it.
the irony is that 120hz screens are actually 1-120hz vs constant 60hz which makes it more battery efficient most of the time except for when you're scrolling
LG were the first to ship products with Tandem OLED, in the automotive market. Apple were not even the first in the mobile or PC markets, being beaten by Huawei and Dell, respectively.
Most 5K monitors on the PC side are not going to be driven over Thunderbolt, but rather DisplayPort or HDMI.
And the most popular resolution on PC is not 4k, but rather 1080p and 1440p.
To the average consumer, deep blacks will look great in the next Avengers movie.
To the average consumer, obsessing over scroll feeling not completely perfect is a distraction from watching the next Avengers movie, if not downright neurotic behavior.
To a prosumer, the value may be obvious but the price may not be worth it. Which can lead to a distaste for the company, for not being a more accommodating company.
To a professional, if you need it, you need it, and you begrudgingly pay for it. Because you need it.
I don’t even know what my phone screen has. Wasn’t why I bought the pro at the time. Wanted the additional ram. So I wouldn’t feel as pressed to upgrade now. (Prosumer, aka neurotic.)
I could not care less about any refresh rate over 30.
You can care about it, but that just means it sounds like a differentiator to me, not something everyone should pay for just because you care about it.
You will have to somehow prove it if you would say that the panel and driver chip are all already ready to do 100+ hz for free by default, and are actually artificially limited, and that that artificial limitation doesn't come with some other advantage like battery life (allowing a smaller battery or less cost in some other way).
For movies, 30fps is good enough, but for a screen which you interact with, the change to 120hz is dramatic. And there is no reason why they should not be adding it.
Usually it's low FPS (if FPS at all) that causes motion sickness. This comes up in VR discussion a lot. IIRC like 90Hz is considered a minimum.
I get horribly motion sick playing some games like Half-Life 2, Metroid Prime, or the original DOOM. I run my phone at 120Hz and like it. For games, cranking up the FoV tends to help, also disabling effects like viewbobbing, blur, shaking, etc.
I understand this is not fun to experiment with, though. Once I'm motion sick, I tend to be the entire day, only sleeping fixes it, so I'm not usually excited to keep trying to tweak the thing that makes me sick. I tend to dive into settings before playing any game now. I hate when it auto starts the game to appear cinematic.
You mean that the corner was damaged, not that a cat also chewed on the corner of your MBP, right? I'm still in shock that a cat would chew on glass and metal enough to damage it - two cats doing it is too much in one day!
Yup. Had an MacBook Air. Slight water damage near charging port. Laptop functioned correctly on AC power. Extensive battery diagnostics: Healthy. Just the charging circuit saying "go ahead, charge device"...
At the Genius Bar expected something reasonable, realistic... $300? Parts and labor.
"So we have a quote for you, $950. Perhaps we go out and look at the new Macs together?"
90% of the cost of the laptop to replace the charging port.
Only Apple can properly replace these screens and pair the parts (FaceId etc),
so setting the standard repair cost high enough helps push people toward Apple Care eligible new devices, handicapping the second hand market.
That has been the case basically since Apple Care existed IMHO.
You're right, the self-service repair program exists. It doesn't clear neither the pairing issue nor parent's hurdles though, as Apple parts are still required , you can't get any similar enough screen you'd want, and they'll be priced the same as in Apple Stores.
As far as I remember, the self-repair kits only make sense in very niche cases (I think repair shop get a different contract ?) and won't work around any limitations Apple puts on parts or repairs.
I did not call Apple, this was a local "fix my iPad" shop.
It was funny, the guy was narrating as he is searching saying "Whoa, this is the most I've ever seen... Wow, oh man... Hold on..."
I knew it was not going to be good.
I asked if there were any DIY options for me.
He said I could possibly find a used iPad online and swap that screen. But, given the insane prices of the replacement screen, I assume the secondary market for a salvageable iPad that works is really tough.
At this point it makes sense to just buy another used iPad.
your ex’s cat chewed on the corner of an iPad? Does the cat have some more interesting stories of destruction since it apparently likes chewing on metal/glass, a higher level of destruction setting than the standard cat.
Because you gave the context clues of M4 chip and OLED screen and $1200 repair cost, this means you somehow snagged an iPad Pro 13” with the cellular modem for $500, which is way below market value.
The current version of this model of iPad purchased brand new is $1700.
In other words, this is the highest end iPad available. Any other lower spec model reduces the repair cost lower than what you were quoted.
I thought the same thing about iPhones, then I got an iPhone Air and can’t imagine going back to those fat bloated bricks people lug around daily. Worse, they put a thick case on it making it even more portly, because the aluminum bodies dent so easily. iPhone Air is what Steve Jobs would have wanted: a super thin strong Titanium phone that doesn’t need any case to feel complete.
Just because it's good doesn't mean it can't be better
The novelty of how thin my M5 iPad Pro is still hasn't worn off. Sometimes it's just nice to hold some tech in your hand that feels like it's from the future.
Since when have we established "thinner and lighter" equals "better"?
In the case of iPhone Air and Galaxy Edge phones, there were notable compromises to achieve a thinner body, for which many people don't consider an improvement.
Granted, I have not seen or used the new iPad mini, and I don't know if any such compromise has been made. But probably should leave it open until we conclude this is a plus.
Perhaps they are planning to launch application features that require or benefit from the A20. Anyway it looks like the base model of the new iPad is using binned CPUs that were not quite good enough for the iPhone 18: 5 cores instead of 6, 1 neural engine instead of 2.
That's not the same thing at all as "selling it as a Pro product". They just happened to put a chip in it which has "Pro" in the name, and which this press release accurately names. They're still selling it as an "iPad Mini" at the same segments and value props that they've always sold iPad Minis at.
And the "Pro" in the chip name doesn't mean anything anyway, "Pro" is actually the lowest-power suffix for A/M-series chips (behind "Max" and "Ultra").
One of my beloved devices was the Nexus 7, it was an excellent affordable template that didn't feel cheap, nor fancy or pro. Just a good media consumption / general purpose small tablet.
I wish Apple would make a similar device. I'm fine with recycled chips and getting a bit gimped on RAM size.
Like the MacBook Neo of iPads; I just really want a media consumption device. A20 Pro means nothing to me.
I would love Apple to actually make something that is worthy of the name Apple. When Steve was alive, Apple was A-P-P-L-E and now it is just a shell of its self.
I don't like when they force a storage upgrade just to get a matte screen. I have no need for more storage, but would like a matte screen. As a $100 upgrade for nanotexture, it already seems steep, but forcing it to a $200 upgrade due to a needless storage bump is too much to ignore.
I also question what is required for nanotexture. I read the iPhone Duo has this in a replaceable screen protector, effectively. A replacement, under AppleCare is $15. Are we being charged $100 for a factory installed screen protector? If so, why does that need to be tied to certain levels of storage to reduce SKUs?
As a life long and continuous Apple user (and iOS SWE), I recently got a $150 Samsung Android tablet that I can use as a claude interface. It can take in voice commands, and create new builds of itself on a network Mac. So I can essentially have whatever screen or interface I want for any given moment. Right now I'm tuning my motorcycle with an OBD bluetooth device and recording engine behavior on rides.
They have enough bezel room to make it into 8.7" or even 8.9" version without changing the dimensions of the mini.
I believe this is the lightest iPad at only 255g. I just wonder how much more weight can they shave off.
And if they are going to kill the iPad? The current iPad line up is split into Pro, Air, (iPad) and Mini. Surely the mini could replace the normal iPad?
Is Stage Manager with an external monitor possible with this new iPad Mini or still artificially limited to M chips? I mean it’s more powerful than the M1 iPad Air which supports it.
Mine is a notebook, a sketch book and a reading device. I read books and queued Instapaper articles, take meeting notes, and make digital art. I love that device to bits.
The iPad is great for sketching, and for making music. It's like having a precision tool, such as a quality chef's knife. If you like to cook, you may not need a nice knife every day, but when you do need it, it's outstanding.
Do there exist any good small Android tablets at a reasonable price?
There were none available in Canada with cellular when I looked a few years ago so I ended up buying an African-region Galaxy Tab A9 for $170. It's functional, but by God is it slow, and that's after adb-removing about 50 pieces of Samsung bloat.
Samsung Galaxy Tab A11 X130 with 8GB of RAM costs around 220 EUR, I haven't tested that one though.
Another alternative is the Lenovo Legion Tab TB321FU, 12GB RAM, 256GB, but this one costs 500 EUR.
But you are right, there are not a lot of alternatives with 8GB RAM out there. Most Android Tablets with a screen size of 8-9" have 4GB, which would make them slow.
> Samsung Galaxy Tab A11 X130 with 8GB of RAM costs around 220 EUR, I haven't tested that one though.
This unfortunately looks to be basically the same as the A9 - the A11 is just lightly refreshed with a newer stock OS and higher refresh screen — the SoC and memory are the same.
It's the SoC that's really killing these tablets, the Helio G99 is about on par with the A10 Fusion from 2016.
The Google Pixel Tablet can be degoogled with GrapheneOS, but it was discontinued last month. It also does not have cellular connectivity. But it’s an excellent device, and the one I am using as part of my effort to wean myself off dependency on fast-enshittifying Apple.
Apple: Just fix the software. I have an iPad Mini (6?) and it's clearly just such an orphaned product. They're not even TRYING to make it usable. The on-screen keyboard takes up the majority of the screen when in landscape mode. In portrait mode, the "drawer" on the left side of the screen takes up so much space in apps like Maps/Flighty that it covers the location you're currently at.
They've clearly given almost no thought into how the (already marginal) iPadOS renders on a smaller screen.
With OLED, this is going to be the best e-book reader in dark mode, and given that it's water resistant you could even use it in bath/hot tub w/o destroying the device - if you're willing to put down $700 for an e-reader that is.
I don’t know about everyone else but I’m just so sick of Apple releasing marginally improved products, calling it their biggest update ever, and then jacking up prices. $700 for an iPad mini is absurd RAM price increases or not.
Given the criticism the Duo has had for not being a very good iPhone[1], I was hoping for a foldable iPad mini, which would seem to dodge those problems. Maybe in a year or two (does anyone remember the iPod Touch, which was an iPhone without the phone bit? I loved that thing.)
I expected the Duo to closer to the size of a normal iPad. I didn't realize it was a foldable iPad Mini that's also a phone. imo It's too small for the bulkiness that it adds. Also sacrificing the camera was not worth the fold.
The point of foldables is that they fit a big screen in your pocket. What's the point of a foldable display? Fit a 10 inch in your tiny purse? Very hard sale for double the price.
We will eventually see "foldable MacBook" because I genuinely want a 20" screen in my backpack or even just a smaller 16" MacBook. I guess not coming before 2035
My iPad Pro is six years old now, the last generation before they started putting M chips in them. Still not interested in buying another until I can run a Linux VM on it.
Back in the mid 2000s, Palm sold Treo smartphones with the camera removed, for high-security places that forbade cameras. Why do I tell this story? It means there is (was) a market for it. I would LOVE and iPad mini with the camera (and its bump) removed. A nice thin slab.
There’s a tiny segment of folks (like me) who have been waiting a very long time for an 8ish inch OLED tablet. For some reason, until mid 2025, they were extremely rare, even in the Android multiverse. I’m excited because I read a ton with white text on black, and an OLED display (especially with this nanotexture stuff) will make a huge difference.
"We just changed a couple things, no biggie, don't buy it" is the reality, but that doesn't sell. Marketers optimize for sales saying what they can get away with.
That's just the nature of (slow) exponential gains. If the processor gains 1% in flops each generation, the absolute flop increase is always the largest ever. Now consider that a device has tens of marketable metrics and that is always a defensible claim.
You're not wrong.
The video video on Youtube gives a very good (and quick) overview of the marketing behind phone screen glass marketing claims; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YrdI7h2XoY
The same will apply to everything any company is marketing, at the very least it will always be their 'best' 'new' product.
I wish Apple did an iPhone Uno or iPad nano — basically a wide phone with camera cutout, status and dock on the right or left side. Yes, two design versions for both left and right handed people. It will be so amazing for multi-tasking on mobile by quickly changing between apps with a permanent dock.
ProZsolt | 18 hours ago
I was actually excited for this, but now I’m going to pass.
sapphire4 | 18 hours ago
abhikul0 | 18 hours ago
I wanted to upgrade my air(gen4) but with these prices it's just not happening. Oh and no support for the perfectly fine apple pencil I already got with it is just....
spolitry | 18 hours ago
throwaway270925 | 16 hours ago
benced | 14 hours ago
tgma | 7 hours ago
NDizzle | 5 hours ago
SV_BubbleTime | 5 hours ago
The question you I think should ask is who finds this value reasonable?. To which, I can only answer my myself who can’t see any reason to upgrade from my iPhone 15.
busymom0 | 3 hours ago
brailsafe | 25 minutes ago
It's cool that you have extra cash to blow on pointless devices, but you were looking to upgrade from an iPhone to an iPad mini?
apparent | 4 hours ago
But yeah, a top-of-the-line iPad mini costs well more than an MBA, which seems kind of nuts. Add on a keyboard case and Apple Pencil Pro and you're looking at $1,500.
fnord77 | 4 hours ago
that's huge
rochak | 2 hours ago
aucisson_masque | 50 minutes ago
Add to that a locked OS, and you got a bingo.
asimovDev | 18 hours ago
non-starter
twostorytower | 18 hours ago
cyanydeez | 18 hours ago
This isn't even a "people dont see that fast".
It just, it seems more like a perceptual addiction to a trivial feature. A penis measuring contest more than a useful advancement of technology.
throwaway85825 | 18 hours ago
afavour | 18 hours ago
drfloyd51 | 18 hours ago
goodmythical | 18 hours ago
The only genuine performance increase I could see is if you're using it for drawing/notes because the Apple Pencil samples at 240/s so you would see a difference in drawing smoothness between 60/120/240hz screens. This would mirror the use case in fast-paced and high action games - more info for your eyes sooner allowing better reaction times.
Also, isn't ProMotion just branded VRR? Allowing for lower battery use in static/low change applications?
speak_plainly | 18 hours ago
asdff | 13 hours ago
kingstnap | 18 hours ago
If you plan to look at moving things, like scrolling, which is a central part of using the device, 120fps makes the scrolling less blurry and therefore more pleasant to look at.
This is like asking why people have a hardon for cars with nicer materials for seats and interiors if a normal cheap plastic interior could pass all the same crash tests.
poly2it | 18 hours ago
dawnerd | 17 hours ago
ezconnect | 18 hours ago
BenFranklin100 | 16 hours ago
It’s a penis measuring contest for display enthusiasts, much like gold connectors are for audio enthusiasts.
RASBR89 | 15 hours ago
I can see the 120hz nice scroll when I’m paying attention but I’m normal use on these devices I forget about it. Basically it wouldn’t be a dealbreaker for me but I agree it should probably be the standard
jerojero | 18 hours ago
the price is a bit high, but that's all apple products.
i do think this means a lot of android tablets on this form factor are going to start coming out with OLED screens as well though, which is good, as they will be much cheaper.
bbatha | 18 hours ago
vallerie | 18 hours ago
For the iPad Air (especially the 13" model!) I agree 100%.
pprotas | 18 hours ago
codq | 12 hours ago
This is a major reason why I'm ponying up the dough for the iPhone Duo.
The iPhone Duo is as close as we're getting to the iPad Mini Pro we've all been asking for.
declan_roberts | 18 hours ago
dawnerd | 17 hours ago
enos_feedler | 15 hours ago
throwaway270925 | 12 hours ago
dkdbejwi383 | 18 hours ago
declan_roberts | 18 hours ago
throw0101c | 18 hours ago
* https://www.apple.com/ipad-mini/specs/ § Location
Edit: to perhaps make it more clear, I meant still sell a +Cellular variant with the C-series chips (or whatever), but move the GNSS functionality into the N-series chips. So you'd have a non-cellular and a cellular, but both would have GNSS.
drfloyd51 | 18 hours ago
The buyer is also signing up for a monthly payment. So clearly they have the cash to make an “extra monthly payment” or two up front.
jillesvangurp | 17 hours ago
But any device that has that embedded would have some royalty overhead added to the BOM. Which is why they've always had ipads with and without 5G and have so far never really bothered with adding this on laptops (which actually would make a lot of sense from a technical point of view). Operators would probably love that because it's a nice up-sell opportunity on monthly subscriptions. And with soft sims there would not be a need for a hardware sim card.
For the same reason, you don't see this feature on many other laptops either. There are a few obviously but it's a less common feature than you'd expect given how important good connectivity is to most laptop users.
kotaKat | 17 hours ago
The C3 modem is just around the corner though, as is the satellite network Globalstar's been building behind the scenes for it.
https://investors.globalstar.com/news-releases/news-release-...
It's now live and on-air for testing...
dylan604 | 17 hours ago
jillesvangurp | 17 hours ago
dylan604 | 16 hours ago
jillesvangurp | 14 hours ago
It's not just Apple. 5G stacks in laptop are just very uncommon. Most vendors seem to independently come to the conclusion that they are better off not bundling that. Of course the difference is that Apple now has their own modems and chips for this. Which might change things but so far hasn't.
The reasons Apple want to vertically integrate everything and own it are easier to grasp: chips, firmware and software made by them are easier to control and upgrade by them. With qualcomm, they are basically getting them, their development teams, their supply chains for chips on the critical path to shipping products. And they are outsourcing what is a pretty major part of the whole phone experience to a third party.
Apple has been working on their own 5G modem for many years before they shipped it. I don't know for sure but I would not be surprised if efforts for that started when Steve Jobs was still alive even. This was always the logical move for them to make as soon as they got the idea of doing their own chipsets for their phones.
enos_feedler | 15 hours ago
judge2020 | 6 hours ago
throw0101c | 17 hours ago
I know of pilots who buy the +Cellular simply for GNSS and do not get a separate plan.
Charging more for the C-series hardware is understandable, but if there's enough of a 'transistor budget' it would be nice for the GNSS functionality to be more universal (since the N-series seems to be going into everything).
kennyadam | 18 hours ago
Zigurd | 18 hours ago
steelframe | 18 hours ago
amelius | 18 hours ago
krtkush | 18 hours ago
These prices are insane and there is no sign of things slowing down.
dgellow | 17 hours ago
joshstrange | 17 hours ago
dgellow | 17 hours ago
pxoe | 16 hours ago
9x39 | 14 hours ago
Commodity hardware is plenty powerful and can be taken advantage of should prices signal efficiency is important again.
pants2 | 17 hours ago
AndroTux | 17 hours ago
Marsymars | 17 hours ago
e.g. I've got three screens in my house (office TV, living room TV, basement projector) in Canada — upgrading to the latest Apple TV on each of them would cost me $1,287.
criddell | 16 hours ago
It should be less expensive but I rely on it (cancelled cable TV and just have streaming now) and so I'm just happy they are still working on it.
TheHalfDeafChef | 15 hours ago
criddell | 15 hours ago
bombcar | 6 hours ago
clintonb | 16 hours ago
I say this as an Apple shareholder.
Marsymars | 15 hours ago
Sure, and I can also complain about the pricing being unreasonable — which I also say an an Apple shareholder.
jachee | 7 hours ago
m_a_g | 18 hours ago
hypercube33 | 18 hours ago
chocochunks | 18 hours ago
chocochunks | 18 hours ago
r0fl | 18 hours ago
gyomu | 18 hours ago
The iPad Mini started with a 7.9" screen, bumped today to 8.5".
The iPhone Duo inner display is 7.6", there are already rumors saying a gen 2 or gen 3 might be 7.9".
It's interesting how smooth the iPhone/iPad continuum is becoming.
frantathefranta | 18 hours ago
Quick look at the Mini dimensions also seems like it barely got bigger overall since 1st gen.
LtWorf | 18 hours ago
when he goes "iphone small (big)" "iphone big (bigger)" and so on. He has a bunch of them.
1-6 | 18 hours ago
klausa | 17 hours ago
idreyn | 17 hours ago
mi_lk | 17 hours ago
rwbt | 17 hours ago
wffurr | 16 hours ago
wtch98 | 16 hours ago
red369 | 6 hours ago
The main body of the iPhone Air is thinner, of course, but including the camera bulge, I think it's thicker than all non-pro iPhones up to the 16.
Is there something about making the main body thinner that makes the iPhone Air more comfortable to hold than other smaller phones? Is it the weight? The 17e is only 4 g heavier than the Air, and the 16e is only 2 g heavier.
I have never been interested in the Air because of the size, so I can't even remember if I have picked one up in an Apple Store.
mrheosuper | 6 hours ago
alberth | 17 hours ago
jghn | 16 hours ago
gtirloni | 16 hours ago
dd8601fn | 15 hours ago
s4i | 2 hours ago
sbdaman | 18 hours ago
thewisenerd | 18 hours ago
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19421163
vunderba | 17 hours ago
criddell | 18 hours ago
tshaddox | 17 hours ago
adolph | 17 hours ago
dkdbejwi383 | 17 hours ago
poszlem | 17 hours ago
cullenking | 17 hours ago
As per other comments, my guess is somewhere between 1% and 5% of ipad mini sales are to pilots. It's gotta be significant or they wouldn't drop a line that in their main copy!
QuiEgo | 12 hours ago
sumnole | 18 hours ago
comrade1234 | 18 hours ago
SirMaster | 18 hours ago
iAMkenough | 17 hours ago
For about the same cost, I can get a used M5 chip with both a Neural Engine™ and GPU cores each with Neural Accelerators™
nfriedly | 17 hours ago
https://gizmodo.com/ipad-mini-oled-a20-pro-chip-2000830541#:...
micw | 18 hours ago
water-drummer | 18 hours ago
hollerith | 18 hours ago
ezconnect | 18 hours ago
WithinReason | 18 hours ago
PalmPilotProMax | 17 hours ago
chihuahua | 16 hours ago
addaon | 16 hours ago
echoangle | 18 hours ago
Hamuko | 18 hours ago
rendaw | 18 hours ago
pseufaux | 18 hours ago
ChrisRR | 17 hours ago
In reality the back was curved, and they took pictures from an angle that only showed off the edge of the screen and not how far back it curved
swiftcoder | 17 hours ago
You only see the thickness at the back from an angle where you can't actually use the computer (and for many people, that whole angle is going to be against the wall). This is the good kind of design - making something appear beautiful without compromising the core function.
I'm distinctly less convinced about ever-thinner mobile devices that I immediately have to slap a case on...
olyjohn | 12 hours ago
devindotcom | 17 hours ago
lotsofpulp | 17 hours ago
frantathefranta | 16 hours ago
codehorses | 17 hours ago
devindotcom | 15 hours ago
this is directly side-on. they've def removed the camera bump. In the initial animation at the top where the hand grabs it too. the bump is very clear in shots later!
wait... could they have hidden it under the hand? and why does that person's thumb seem extra long?! the more I look at this the less I understand it.
estebank | 15 hours ago
The video keeps triggering my sense of seeing CGI, but the hiding effect on display can absolutely be accomplished in camera.
cj | 5 hours ago
daemonologist | 17 hours ago
I would assume, however, that they didn't "fake" it - that they instead chose a filming position and lens such that camera was obscured behind the edge of the device (the edge facing the viewer is the far side from the camera). Bit of trickery for sure though.
lynndotpy | 17 hours ago
from this page: https://www.apple.com/ipad-mini/specs/
jotaen | 16 hours ago
I’d suspect the same. From that angle, the camera bump is on the opposite edge; when I hold my iPad Air in the same position, the camera bump is also just about hidden.
That being said, I’d also suspect that Apple chose that angle deliberately.
andai | 15 hours ago
ch_sm | 12 hours ago
HumblyTossed | 17 hours ago
b473a | 16 hours ago
A minimal camera bump means they've advanced the technology to make it small, but no camera bump makes it look like they're using a cheaper camera?
encom | 15 hours ago
Arcuru | 18 hours ago
If they put the tiny "front-facing" camera pointed out the back it would be enough for the vast majority of people I imagine.
NikolaNovak | 17 hours ago
Don't get me wrong, I understand it happens - back when I did wedding photography, one of my massive pet peeves were the uncles and grandparents who stepped into the aisle with their massive tablets just as bride is starting her walk... But I do not understand it at all :-/.
I'd absolutely happily completely kill the rear facing tablet camera. I've had at least a dozen android and ipad tablets and I genuinely don't think I took a single photo with them - it'd feel weird and awkward and so ostentious.
(As always as a consumer, clearly I'm in minority here :-})
dylan604 | 17 hours ago
NikolaNovak | 16 hours ago
NetMageSCW | 18 hours ago
itishappy | 17 hours ago
bryanlarsen | 18 hours ago
sandcat_ | 18 hours ago
threetonesun | 17 hours ago
rjh29 | 16 hours ago
My mum's Samsung S23 Ultra has a ridiculous camera bump and rocks back and forth when you use it, even with some thinner cases. You need a super thick case for it to stay stable.
chis | 14 hours ago
Gigachad | 7 hours ago
There's also many users who don't need a case. A lot of ipads are POS systems that are fixed to the bench so they don't need a case either.
simoncion | 5 hours ago
Given that the impact-absorbing parts could be [0]
and could obviously be designed to be replaceable, either by a handy user or an Apple Technician, why wouldn't you want Apple to design the feel and balance of a device with a case that has built-in impact protection?Apple's decision to make most of its handhelds out of various grades of "fragililum" has boggled my mind since they sold the first iPhone with an easily-shattered glass back. That choice makes sense for a conspicuous status symbol that people are going to take very good care of... but most folks either end up with one with damage that makes plain how theirs is not the kind of life that makes that possible, or they have installed some aftermarket shell that ruins the effect by covering up the conspicuously fragile part of the hardware.
[0] <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50247743>
amelius | 18 hours ago
dgellow | 17 hours ago
Though I do hate that bump. I just tried a duo and the bump makes it awkward to hold as a tablet
JK-Swizzle | 15 hours ago
The big examples are iPhone Air and iMac.
From my experience, the iPhone bumps are a lot more noticeable than their iPad siblings.
paxy | 17 hours ago
dylan604 | 17 hours ago
dpark | 16 hours ago
No one attempted to dictate anything. They expressed an opinion. HN is a discussion forum. This is exactly what it’s for.
Your point would look stronger if you had only included your last two sentences without the indignation of the first two.
dylan604 | 16 hours ago
That is not expressing of an opinion but dictating an action. "I think they should get rid of it entirely..." would be the expressing of an opinion.
r_lee | 16 hours ago
phoghed | 15 hours ago
More likely though they’re trying to signal their membership to the in-group that’s always circle jerking on every iPhone/iPad post about SD cards, removable battery, thick small phone, flush camera, etc.
dpark | 14 hours ago
The top comment thread here is complaining about the camera bump.
phoghed | 14 hours ago
dpark | 14 hours ago
phoghed | 13 hours ago
r_lee | 14 hours ago
it's not super "ethical" if you're like triggered by (maybe) harsh opinions, but it gets people to chime in vs just lurking
dpark | 14 hours ago
He’s literally expressing an opinion. There is no in here to “dictate” to.
swiftcoder | 17 hours ago
AlanYx | 17 hours ago
koiueo | 3 hours ago
Too bad though, there's no way to put a scanned document onto iPad in Apple's ecosystem other than the otherwise useless camera.
dawnerd | 17 hours ago
jghn | 16 hours ago
turblety | 17 hours ago
venzaspa | 17 hours ago
matwood | 17 hours ago
paulwilsontx01 | 16 hours ago
encom | 15 hours ago
internet2000 | 4 hours ago
encom | 3 hours ago
bob1029 | 17 hours ago
al_borland | 17 hours ago
I also don’t think I’ve ever seen an Apple exec use a case, as it would imply the phones are durable and a case is needed, which they don’t want to convey. (Bumpers for antenna-gate aside)
belzebub | 17 hours ago
Zircom | 16 hours ago
addaon | 6 hours ago
To "b" or not to "b". Apparently the latter.
skydhash | 16 hours ago
Also my favorite smartphone was a motorola with a cloth back (ballistic something) and a metal frame. No cover was needed for this one.
thiht | 16 hours ago
What year is it, 2012?
encom | 15 hours ago
I would be content if they'd stop making phones slippier than a wet bar of soap. My Pixel 8a is ridiculous, I don't know how they do it. If you have dry hands, it's nearly impossible to hold on to.
saltcured | 15 hours ago
Found one on Amazon so I dodge Google's exorbitant plastic markup, and it is a relatively minimalist wrap that smooths out the camera bump and makes it more grippy in hand, in pockets, and on flat surfaces.
The behavior of those slippery phones in pockets is almost the bigger gripe to me. Like they are a new class of motion amplifier, trying to rotate and squirt their way out at the slightest twitch.
jghn | 13 hours ago
I would never use a case with a phone of any sort. I don't like the extra bulk, and the friction they add is annoying.
Meanwhile I never use a tablet or kindle device without a cover.
PcChip | 15 hours ago
ssl-3 | 15 hours ago
The curvature on the back of those is such that it's harder to rotate into a position so the thumb can hit the right button than a flat surface would be.
It also means that resting it on the arm of a recliner produces about the same result as just dropping it into the void to begin with: It's going to wind up there either way.
gregglain | 2 hours ago
jazzyjackson | 15 hours ago
izzydata | 17 hours ago
weezing | 17 hours ago
izzydata | 16 hours ago
alberth | 17 hours ago
throwaway270925 | 15 hours ago
ChocolateGod | 17 hours ago
thermals.
ProfessorLayton | 13 hours ago
Doohickey-d | 17 hours ago
mandeepj | 17 hours ago
Not really! The cover just follows the seam. And larger batteries will increase the weight as well, which Apple definitely doesn't want.
gwbas1c | 14 hours ago
That being said, even with my Pixel in a case, the camera still protrudes.
It would be interesting to try a camera where the lens extends out when the camera is activated; and flat otherwise.
unethical_ban | 14 hours ago
Perhaps if they put a very small lip around the camera lens and a physical bump on the other side so the device doesn't rock, at least it would be symmetrical and the glass would be slightly less prone to surface contact.
etatester | an hour ago
They came up with the plateau, just make the whole plateau flat already.
animitronix | 18 hours ago
criddell | 18 hours ago
jmull | 18 hours ago
AI Optimist: AI is going usher in an era of unparalleled productivity and achievement
The reality: RAM/Chip prices are way, way up. The starter iPad mini is $700.
kleiba2 | 18 hours ago
Is the comparison unfair because today's model is much more powerful than the one from 14 years ago? Perhaps. But perhaps it shouldn't be compared to the past, but to its relative competitors?
[0] https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2012/10/23Apple-Introduces-iP...
xattt | 17 hours ago
A toilet from a hundred years ago in the same product tier serves the same function as one today. Old models were also more expensive when adjusted for inflation, but today's toilets can tackle more turds with less water.
qlte | 16 hours ago
HumblyTossed | 17 hours ago
Gigachad | 7 hours ago
The upfront cost of a device is less important than the total cost of ownership, which highly depends on the lifespan of the device. An ipad that lasts 2.5 years needs to be half the price of one that lasts 5 years.
mahboi | 5 hours ago
650REDHAIR | 3 hours ago
paxy | 17 hours ago
dofm | 16 hours ago
paxy | 16 hours ago
hbn | 16 hours ago
paxy | 14 hours ago
hbn | 13 hours ago
Same reason this year, for the first time ever, Apple announced their new Pro phones (and the ultra-expensive Duo) but no base-model iPhone 18. They're paying more for memory so they're gonna use it on the devices where they make more on a sale.
m463 | 15 hours ago
mrweasel | 17 hours ago
So that cloud providers can have servers and GPUs sitting unpowered in warehouses and datacenters.
dofm | 16 hours ago
I know it’s now a trope to say “an incoming Democratic Congress should…” but there are really serious questions to ask about the means by which Nvidia is securing such a radically high value buy-and-hold strategy, and whether it amounts to deceptive channel stuffing.
The whole tech industry is using apparent demand for Blackwell GPUs as a proxy for AI demand, when this is a wholly broken metric because Nvidia seems to be gaming it, and everyone (consumer and business alike) is paying more as a result.
flaunf221 | 17 hours ago
This has tiny 128 GB of storage and unknown but obviously not too high amount of RAM. At best 16, but probably less.
That's just Apple beeing greedy as usual.
spiderice | 17 hours ago
flaunf221 | 17 hours ago
I can open my local store and will see shitty 8/128 Android tablets for less than 150 euro. If memorypocalypse was the main reason for pricing new ipad mini as it is, the budget tablet segment would be completely dead because manufacturers just wouldn't be able to afford memory at all.
mrheosuper | 6 hours ago
asdff | 13 hours ago
KetoManx64 | 9 hours ago
vallerie | 18 hours ago
rumori | 17 hours ago
AndroTux | 17 hours ago
freeplay | 16 hours ago
rjrjrjrj | 16 hours ago
jerojero | 18 hours ago
But the price is a bit high, that's the history of Apple though. On the other hand, I think this particular screen is probably going to be sourced by cheaper small android tablets at a much more competitive price, and if you're using it for media consumption, there's no difference between an Apple and an Android tablet.
So I'm happy to see OLED on this model.
m3kw9 | 18 hours ago
ChrisRR | 17 hours ago
pizzafeelsright | 17 hours ago
Danox | 11 hours ago
fmajid | 14 hours ago
The US government is also trying to kneecap them, threatening Apple with tariffs if they went ahead with YMTC storage, even if only for the Chinese market.
They are thus primarily focusing on the Chinese market, but if they weren’t there, DRAM and flash is a global commodity market and prices would have gone up even more insanely than today.
Danox | 11 hours ago
magicmicah85 | 18 hours ago
iSnow | 18 hours ago
However, whether you really notice a difference reading on the thing I kinda doubt.
blfr | 18 hours ago
OLED + dark mode after sundown are awesome. On Android we also get the extra dim mode which makes it perfect for lights-out.
nogridbag | 17 hours ago
tosser811 | 17 hours ago
kccqzy | 17 hours ago
In general display technologies are highly subjective. Besides LCD versus OLED, there are people who love nano texture and there are people who hate them. There are people who absolutely need 120Hz and there are people who can’t tell the difference between 60Hz and 120Hz. It’s a shame that we can’t customize the display technology exactly as we want.
RASBR89 | 15 hours ago
fmajid | 14 hours ago
orloffm | 16 hours ago
nakovet | 18 hours ago
r0fl | 18 hours ago
Check Porsche 911 / Boxster pricing in Canada over those years or Chanel bags
Luxury inflation > normal inflation
paxy | 18 hours ago
SkyeCA | 17 hours ago
mahboi | 5 hours ago
jkahrs595 | 17 hours ago
Grombobulous | 17 hours ago
The iPad is not the only device that has had price increases in the last year.
r0fl | 15 hours ago
mahboi | 5 hours ago
ezconnect | 18 hours ago
andjd | 17 hours ago
__rito__ | 17 hours ago
al_borland | 17 hours ago
jachee | 7 hours ago
“Oh, ho, ho… you sweet summer child.” —Capitalism
mahboi | 5 hours ago
addaon | 6 hours ago
- They never came back down.
- Diet soda and seltzer prices spiked too.
Barbing | 17 hours ago
Keeping up appearances:
Lease from $14.99/mo. per month for 36 mo.months with Apple Upgrade Footnote ※
rjrjrjrj | 17 hours ago
The iPad mini hasn’t been the budget iPad for quite a few years now. It is more like a small iPad Air now.
r0fl | 18 hours ago
The homeview at $299 is the great value Apple product by far, compared to the price of new iPads
The 512 nano texture iPad mini with a case and pencil and Apple care and tax and tip in Canada is well over $2000!!!
paxy | 17 hours ago
Tagbert | 17 hours ago
Right now, I think they are bringing out an MVP and waiting to see how people react to it and what kinds of things turn out to be useful. When they launched the Watch, no one was sure what kinds of things we would want to do on it. It took a while to see what was useful. I think a model where apps on your phone provide HomeView widgets like the Watch might be better than writing apps specifically for such a device.
paxy | 17 hours ago
dkdbejwi383 | 17 hours ago
r0fl | 15 hours ago
tacker2000 | 16 hours ago
There is no app store. I mean maybe they will add one later, but still until that happens I really dont see any use case besides setting some kitchen timers.
Yes, smart home is a thing, but tons of people need apps like Hue or Shelly to control their setup.
r0fl | 15 hours ago
I’m buying one for my parents and in-laws
They have iPads
iPads are never charged and in some random spot in their being empty houses
This will make sure my kids can FaceTime their grandparents whenever they want
That’s worth $300 to make my kids and my parents happy
bigyabai | 7 hours ago
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that charged iPads are not the primary constraint here. If you can't trust them to keep their iPads charged, there's a good chance that you'll come back in a year and the HomeView hasn't left the setup screen, or is sitting in a box somewhere.
StrictDabbler | 14 hours ago
sheepscreek | 18 hours ago
RetpolineDrama | 17 hours ago
Danox | 11 hours ago
hbn | 17 hours ago
Insanity | 17 hours ago
hbn | 17 hours ago
I bought the new 8 inch Alexa tablet the other day, and the price was decent but it's a piece of shit. I only wanted it for putting on a video in bed while I fall asleep but it can't even do that because when you drop the brightness to minimum, the display randomly turns off (not actually locking the screen, it's still running the app and active, you can touch stuff you can't see, but the pixels are turned off)
prmoustache | an hour ago
That's...horrifying.
Have you tried closing your eyes?
opan | 43 minutes ago
scrlk | 17 hours ago
HumblyTossed | 17 hours ago
alwillis | 16 hours ago
The iPhone sells way more units than the iPad, so it makes sense that it's not a feature for the iPad mini yet.
mtoner23 | 17 hours ago
scotty79 | 17 hours ago
qlte | 17 hours ago
Actually surprised to learn Apple did the OLED swap and didn't use the opportunity to bump it up at least to 90 hz like the OLED Steam Deck.
smallerize | 14 hours ago
scotty79 | 10 hours ago
20 years ago I was gaming at 30fps and called it smooth. Now 120Hz feels like bare minimum.
addandsubtract | 6 hours ago
pvab3 | 7 hours ago
mrheosuper | 6 hours ago
mahboi | 5 hours ago
Outdated comparison now that Liquid Glass is lagging my phone.
petu | an hour ago
blehn | 5 hours ago
kalleboo | 4 hours ago
sheepscreek | 2 hours ago
It will be buttery smooth between the chops.
ckx | 12 hours ago
scotty79 | 10 hours ago
adamsmark | 3 hours ago
benley | 17 hours ago
60fps is basically fine as long as you are unaware that it can be any better, but once you find out you are forever spoiled by the knowledge.
lilbigdoot | 17 hours ago
I'm sure a lot of people now would feel odd if you gave them a 60Hz phone after high refresh has become so common, even if they don't pay conscious attention to that kind of stuff
thesuitonym | 17 hours ago
I know there's a sizable contingent of people who just think a bigger number is better, but realistically this is a device for passively consuming text and video content that is typically around 30 fps anyway. Why waste the battery power on faster refresh?
close04 | 16 hours ago
eptcyka | 12 hours ago
jrmg | 7 hours ago
Does the page look and feel glued to your finger as you scroll?
jen20 | 6 hours ago
Maxion | an hour ago
Yes, for me issues with apps have mainly been in poorly optimized code causing lag, slow loading and the like. The 60hz/120hz thing has never really been a practical issue.
dontlaugh | 5 hours ago
lynndotpy | 17 hours ago
Whether the hardware can keep up with Liquid Glass and push 120 frames a second is a different story, of course.
peesem | 16 hours ago
mort96 | 14 hours ago
If only "pro consumers" noticed or cared... well, those "pro consumers" are the ones who think it looks like shit and would rather have a TV without it.
globular-toast | 16 hours ago
It's probably not actually as hard to go back as we think it is, but holding on to stuff is in our genes.
atlasduo | 16 hours ago
My personal experience is that I do notice the difference - for like a minute - and then I adjust and never care anymore.
globular-toast | 15 hours ago
globular-toast | 10 hours ago
zamadatix | 15 hours ago
Without this, it'd be very hard for an average user to "feel" a performance difference between an A18 Pro in the Neo and say as far as the M5 Max in a MacBook Pro unless they had a "special" use case which really needed the extra CPU/GPU cores.
Of course, they can't stay forever on that. E.g. with the iPhone 17 they finally flipped the non-Pro over. Probably because it was starting to make the iPhone seem sluggish/stuttery compared to other phones more than it was making the iPhone 18 seem fast. Tablets have never seemed to be as fierce a market in terms of your average Joe comparing them, but I'd expect the same switch to being a liability instead of a tool will happen there as well (if they aren't already late to the game).
pvab3 | 7 hours ago
ckx | 12 hours ago
RaisingSpear | 47 minutes ago
I don't know how "mobile" gamers are using iPads (or tablets), but considering the size of the market, I doubt it's particularly niche.
mahboi | 5 hours ago
7e | 5 hours ago
mahboi | 5 hours ago
wlesieutre | 5 hours ago
Not a blind test, but the smoothness when tracking a moving object is very obvious
sersi | 4 hours ago
But maybe it's because I'm 40+ with relatively bad eye vision and 20 years earlier I'd be noticing the difference much more.. But I'd say going from 1080p to 4k was a lot more obvious than that...
Maxion | an hour ago
blehn | 5 hours ago
apparent | 4 hours ago
Imagine if someone said "this food won't really taste better to you when you first eat it, but after 6 months you'll find other food tastes worse". To me, this would not be a selling point.
koyote | 4 hours ago
I've often had new phones that are 'faster' but I barely notice the fastness until I go back to my old phone and realise that my finger-memory needs adapting because things take just a bit longer to load.
I'd assume it's similar for screen refresh rates.
apparent | 3 hours ago
When I got the phones, I did not notice any benefit related to screen refresh. I also did not notice any detriment when I went back to my 13 mini after two weeks on a 120 Hz screen.
But if it was as GP said, and it's only something you notice when you go back to a "lesser" screen, then that would not be a selling point in my book.
alsetmusic | 3 hours ago
olyjohn | 3 hours ago
zeppelin101 | 3 hours ago
biggc | 2 hours ago
apparent | 2 hours ago
And I would disagree that only the story matters. If that were the case, people wouldn't go to the theater (a trend that has started happening in the last 15 years as people have been able to rig their living rooms to give an experience that is nearly theater quality, especially when considering cost and convenience. When we had 20" TVs, they were no substitute for going to the movies.
alexgoodhart | an hour ago
Either way, a larger screen is not the same improvement as higher resolution. And more importantly, the reason people may not go to the movies when they have a home theater system is partly due to justifying the cost of the theater system.
comboy | an hour ago
With food also you could be incrementally getting better and better food and when you then try v1 it would taste bad.
It seems that we might also be noticing slight degradation more than slight improvement in general? No idea if that's true.
swiftcoder | an hour ago
andriesm | 49 minutes ago
neya | 5 hours ago
"I don't have an issue with it, so most people also don't have an issue with it"
False Consensus Effect (or false consensus fallacy):
It happens when someone overestimates how much other people agree with them, assuming that their own personal beliefs, values, or experiences are the default for everyone else.
crazygringo | 5 hours ago
It's a very small minority who cares.
neya | 4 hours ago
Cite your sources, please or you're just echoing "trust me, bro".
drawfloat | 2 hours ago
Klonoar | an hour ago
neya | 18 minutes ago
simjnd | an hour ago
bodge5000 | 22 minutes ago
Aurornis | 17 hours ago
I can spot a 60Hz display from jiggling the mouse pointer for a second.
I’ve also done side-by-side comparisons of full screen scrolling on 60Hz and 120Hz screens for less technical people who could barely perceive a difference when I was pointing it out, but it took some time to get them to see it.
MKBHD (YouTube tech video and reviewer) talks about this a lot: It’s highly valuable to people like you and me who are attuned to the performance of our devices, but most people don’t notice. Or care!
I would appreciate high Hz displays everywhere, but I admit that Apple has probably made the right consumer choice tradeoff to compromise on refresh rate for these lower end devices where minimum cost and maximum battery life are the two most important features for those who buy them.
vunderba | 17 hours ago
So if you’re actively moving between a high-refresh-rate device (like a lot of people here with their 144hz monitors) and then one with a lower refresh rate, you’re probably more sensitive (and potentially annoyed) by the discrepancy.
asdff | 14 hours ago
Viewing distance plays a factor too. I realized 4k tvs are useless to me because I can't perceive 1080p pixels unless I'm comparison shopping in a TV show room from 2 feet away (probably why they don't let you experience appropriate TV viewing distances in these spaces in the first place).
asdff | 13 hours ago
Danox | 11 hours ago
seemaze | 17 hours ago
MarkusWandel | 16 hours ago
cromka | 16 hours ago
zamadatix | 16 hours ago
Grombobulous | 7 hours ago
Look at Apple’s own smartphone lineup. The Pro models with 120Hz screens get better battery life than the low end iPhone models.
You could make up for the difference in battery life with an almost undetectable amount of extra battery capacity from both a cost and size standpoint.
ashkankiani | 7 hours ago
Do you think they couldn't add a refresh rate control to the device if you wanted to have lower battery? They already have variable refresh rate implemented, a much harder problem.
I remember the age of when Intel used to lock down hardware multipliers for overclocking behind the K versions, and GPUs did too. This is a well known practice, and Apple is not above it.
frio | 6 hours ago
html5cat | 6 hours ago
sheepscreek | 14 hours ago
- Apple introduces OLED and talks about deep blacks and 1200 bits
- Why do they think people care about the above and not 120hz as well?
To the average consumer, neither matters much. True. But the above did not make much sense to me.
Danox | 11 hours ago
120hz at 5k requires Thunderbolt 5 (ie better graphics card, more info down the pipeline.
Which is why most of the PC world is on cheap 4k monitors still.
scq | an hour ago
Most 5K monitors on the PC side are not going to be driven over Thunderbolt, but rather DisplayPort or HDMI.
And the most popular resolution on PC is not 4k, but rather 1080p and 1440p.
catchnear4321 | 6 hours ago
To the average consumer, obsessing over scroll feeling not completely perfect is a distraction from watching the next Avengers movie, if not downright neurotic behavior.
To a prosumer, the value may be obvious but the price may not be worth it. Which can lead to a distaste for the company, for not being a more accommodating company.
To a professional, if you need it, you need it, and you begrudgingly pay for it. Because you need it.
I don’t even know what my phone screen has. Wasn’t why I bought the pro at the time. Wanted the additional ram. So I wouldn’t feel as pressed to upgrade now. (Prosumer, aka neurotic.)
coldtea | 13 hours ago
codingisfreedom | 4 hours ago
Brian_K_White | an hour ago
I could not care less about any refresh rate over 30.
You can care about it, but that just means it sounds like a differentiator to me, not something everyone should pay for just because you care about it.
You will have to somehow prove it if you would say that the panel and driver chip are all already ready to do 100+ hz for free by default, and are actually artificially limited, and that that artificial limitation doesn't come with some other advantage like battery life (allowing a smaller battery or less cost in some other way).
seviu | an hour ago
lcnmrn | an hour ago
opan | 45 minutes ago
I get horribly motion sick playing some games like Half-Life 2, Metroid Prime, or the original DOOM. I run my phone at 120Hz and like it. For games, cranking up the FoV tends to help, also disabling effects like viewbobbing, blur, shaking, etc.
I understand this is not fun to experiment with, though. Once I'm motion sick, I tend to be the entire day, only sleeping fixes it, so I'm not usually excited to keep trying to tweak the thing that makes me sick. I tend to dive into settings before playing any game now. I hate when it auto starts the game to appear cinematic.
LITzman | 18 hours ago
GaggiX | 18 hours ago
TiredOfLife | 18 hours ago
holsta | 13 hours ago
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/ipad/ipadf97892b2/ipad...
Facetime / Signal will work fine over just data.
ivanjermakov | 18 hours ago
james_pm | 18 hours ago
asciimov | 17 hours ago
smartbit | 17 hours ago
I was considering buying one, but will skip until the older model becomes unsupported or when Apple adds Face ID.
xrd | 17 hours ago
M4 chip.
Her mom's cats chewed on the corner of the screen. It won't turn on.
The cost to replace that screen: $1200.
Apparently OLED screens break completely if just a single pixel is damaged.
ChrisRR | 17 hours ago
dreamcompiler | 17 hours ago
red369 | 6 hours ago
dreamcompiler | 3 hours ago
gib444 | 17 hours ago
That's Apple saying to you: omg, stop being so poor and wasting our time, just buy another one
FireBeyond | 13 hours ago
At the Genius Bar expected something reasonable, realistic... $300? Parts and labor.
"So we have a quote for you, $950. Perhaps we go out and look at the new Macs together?"
90% of the cost of the laptop to replace the charging port.
makeitdouble | 17 hours ago
That has been the case basically since Apple Care existed IMHO.
alwillis | 16 hours ago
Not true. Apple has a self-service repair program for most of its products, including the iPad mini.
All the repair manuals are available online and you can buy official Apple parts. [1] They'll even sell or rent the tools you will need.
[1]: https://selfservicerepair.com/en-US/home
makeitdouble | 14 hours ago
As far as I remember, the self-repair kits only make sense in very niche cases (I think repair shop get a different contract ?) and won't work around any limitations Apple puts on parts or repairs.
xrd | 10 hours ago
It was funny, the guy was narrating as he is searching saying "Whoa, this is the most I've ever seen... Wow, oh man... Hold on..."
I knew it was not going to be good.
I asked if there were any DIY options for me.
He said I could possibly find a used iPad online and swap that screen. But, given the insane prices of the replacement screen, I assume the secondary market for a salvageable iPad that works is really tough.
At this point it makes sense to just buy another used iPad.
asdff | 13 hours ago
mint5 | 12 hours ago
Grombobulous | 7 hours ago
The current version of this model of iPad purchased brand new is $1700.
In other words, this is the highest end iPad available. Any other lower spec model reduces the repair cost lower than what you were quoted.
mrheosuper | 6 hours ago
enzoaguado | 17 hours ago
AndrewStephens | 17 hours ago
Luckily I didn’t buy a iPad Mini, but I really like the form factor.
koziserek | 29 minutes ago
yegle | 17 hours ago
It would be great if it can use fingerprint to unlock different profiles.
twidtwid | 17 hours ago
cynicalpeace | 17 hours ago
fg137 | 17 hours ago
Never once did I hold my iPad mini with a case and think, "damn this thing is heavy"
deadbabe | 17 hours ago
hbn | 16 hours ago
The novelty of how thin my M5 iPad Pro is still hasn't worn off. Sometimes it's just nice to hold some tech in your hand that feels like it's from the future.
fg137 | 12 hours ago
In the case of iPhone Air and Galaxy Edge phones, there were notable compromises to achieve a thinner body, for which many people don't consider an improvement.
Granted, I have not seen or used the new iPad mini, and I don't know if any such compromise has been made. But probably should leave it open until we conclude this is a plus.
paxy | 17 hours ago
apetresc | 17 hours ago
paxy | 17 hours ago
jeffbee | 17 hours ago
apetresc | 7 hours ago
And the "Pro" in the chip name doesn't mean anything anyway, "Pro" is actually the lowest-power suffix for A/M-series chips (behind "Max" and "Ultra").
dannyw | 17 hours ago
I wish Apple would make a similar device. I'm fine with recycled chips and getting a bit gimped on RAM size.
Like the MacBook Neo of iPads; I just really want a media consumption device. A20 Pro means nothing to me.
hbn | 17 hours ago
Zoinks
mrweasel | 17 hours ago
gib444 | 17 hours ago
sevenseacat | 16 hours ago
edit: That's more than a MacBook Neo, they're only $1,049!
fletchdatpaq | 17 hours ago
al_borland | 17 hours ago
I also question what is required for nanotexture. I read the iPhone Duo has this in a replaceable screen protector, effectively. A replacement, under AppleCare is $15. Are we being charged $100 for a factory installed screen protector? If so, why does that need to be tied to certain levels of storage to reduce SKUs?
scrlk | 17 hours ago
hectdev | 17 hours ago
maromocooo | 17 hours ago
ksec | 17 hours ago
I believe this is the lightest iPad at only 255g. I just wonder how much more weight can they shave off.
And if they are going to kill the iPad? The current iPad line up is split into Pro, Air, (iPad) and Mini. Surely the mini could replace the normal iPad?
ChaseRensberger | 17 hours ago
ChaseRensberger | 17 hours ago
rramon | 17 hours ago
breisa | 17 hours ago
Danox | 11 hours ago
koziserek | 15 minutes ago
jcmontx | 17 hours ago
steinvakt2 | 16 hours ago
crims0n | 15 hours ago
karpovv-boris | 15 hours ago
nicbou | 13 hours ago
DamnInteresting | 10 hours ago
unethical_ban | 6 hours ago
schmookeeg | 6 hours ago
taytus | 17 hours ago
RASBR89 | 15 hours ago
fmajid | 14 hours ago
tacker2000 | 17 hours ago
I want to upgrade my old Mini 5 with Lightning since I want one with USB-C, and the OS is getting slower and slower, but at these prices?
All I do is read websites and watch Youtube on it anyway, so maybe I'll just get an Android Tablet for 300 €.
This is getting ridiculous!
Marsymars | 16 hours ago
There were none available in Canada with cellular when I looked a few years ago so I ended up buying an African-region Galaxy Tab A9 for $170. It's functional, but by God is it slow, and that's after adb-removing about 50 pieces of Samsung bloat.
tacker2000 | 16 hours ago
Another alternative is the Lenovo Legion Tab TB321FU, 12GB RAM, 256GB, but this one costs 500 EUR.
But you are right, there are not a lot of alternatives with 8GB RAM out there. Most Android Tablets with a screen size of 8-9" have 4GB, which would make them slow.
Marsymars | 15 hours ago
This unfortunately looks to be basically the same as the A9 - the A11 is just lightly refreshed with a newer stock OS and higher refresh screen — the SoC and memory are the same.
It's the SoC that's really killing these tablets, the Helio G99 is about on par with the A10 Fusion from 2016.
fmajid | 14 hours ago
HybridStatAnim8 | 10 hours ago
mrheosuper | 5 hours ago
Marsymars | 4 hours ago
SSLy | 17 hours ago
lol, no, thanks
kushalpandya | 17 hours ago
ancorevard | 16 hours ago
rconti | 16 hours ago
They've clearly given almost no thought into how the (already marginal) iPadOS renders on a smaller screen.
thiht | 16 hours ago
asdff | 13 hours ago
iAMkenough | 8 hours ago
unethical_ban | 6 hours ago
vcryan | 16 hours ago
Turfie | 16 hours ago
jpease | 15 hours ago
loehnsberg | 15 hours ago
throw0101c | 14 hours ago
* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50243646
abcd_f | 14 hours ago
Or this exciting marketing twist still to come?
colsandurz | 14 hours ago
haunter | 14 hours ago
nicbou | 13 hours ago
I'm excited for the OLED display because it would make bedtime reading easier on the eyes. I'm also happy about the weight reduction.
Still, it's €749 vs €549 in 2021. I will use mine until it stops fulfilling its role, which might take a few more years.
darkteflon | 12 hours ago
oliyoung | 10 hours ago
brailsafe | 7 hours ago
dannyobrien | 6 hours ago
[1] - See "far the worst iPhone experience ever" Daring Fireball review: https://daringfireball.net/#:~:text=one.%20The%20outer%20dev...
chaostheory | 6 hours ago
etatester | an hour ago
We will eventually see "foldable MacBook" because I genuinely want a 20" screen in my backpack or even just a smaller 16" MacBook. I guess not coming before 2035
try-working | 6 hours ago
addaon | 6 hours ago
jbellis | 4 hours ago
dmitrygr | 4 hours ago
sicktriple | 4 hours ago
do it you cowards
rao-v | 3 hours ago
crossroadsguy | 3 hours ago
That's it! Hitting "Buy". This was all I needed to read. Even though the ™ symbol is missing it will do.
ungreased0675 | 3 hours ago
erickhill | 3 hours ago
hebetude | 3 hours ago
isoprophlex | 2 hours ago
If that were literally true, by now we'd be walking around with devices the size of Mt. Rushmore.
etatester | an hour ago
KeplerBoy | an hour ago
illwrks | 49 minutes ago
The same will apply to everything any company is marketing, at the very least it will always be their 'best' 'new' product.
loaderchips | 2 hours ago
lcnmrn | an hour ago
Computer0 | an hour ago
koziserek | 26 minutes ago
Okay, he's not a CEO anymore, but the aftertaste remains.
koziserek | an hour ago
As much as form factor is intriguing, I'd rather keep my 'old' pixel9a and wacom movink 14 combo.
(Bonus points, not supporting Epstein crowd with my money)