As someone who finds the massive financial/technological/social revolution we're going through with AI extremely unsettling, I find the temptation to do this very strong.
So far, I'm still here. One of the main reasons is that even if I were to find some sort of way to make an offline living that provides good healthcare, that still isn't a complete escape to No AI Island. I will still be living in a world populated by people using AI, surrounded by companies using AI, paying taxes to a government deeply intertwined with AI. Even if I were to not own a car, it's not like I'm not still affected by parking lots, roads, smog, climate change, etc.
And if I'm going to be in a world deeply steeped in and affected by AI, I may as well understand it to some degree and use the technological skills that I have and that I enjoy using.
Indeed. The Online used to be good. It added fantastic things to the Offline. The monetary cost of Online has plummeted since then. Even though the Online has also gone to shit, surely the good times could be revived now that the associated infrastructure costs are next to zero?
Personally, I have been increasingly offline for the last year plus, to the point that I am even neglecting smol online things like gopher and geminiprotocol. Things that I would have written a gemlog about are resting in my notebook. Things I think I still might publish one day get typed into my org-mode notes, but so far, I haven't gotten around to reworking any of them. Disappointingly, it's the bigger more satisfying online things that I've dropped, while some of the trivial stuff stays just because the investment of attention required is lower.
If I could retire today, I would. I've still got over ten years left on the traditional retirement path, though I think it's not likely to be there waiting for me when I get there.
That seems like a charming project but I get so curious about people’s financial situations when they’re able to make such asymmetrical moves like that. ... I shouldn’t ruin the anti-capitalistic vibe with such trivial capitalistic questions but I love it and my brain jumps to trying to make the math work for myself.
I very much relate to the feeling of my brain jumping to try make the math work for myself, but I disagree with the first part of that statement. I think it's very important to consider the brass tacks of how a situation like this is possible for someone, and wouldn't trivialize it! From my perspective, this type of change is impossible without at least one of:
Inherited wealth
Years at a highly compensated job, with success in investments made
Extreme luck
It might seem very defeatist or nihilistic, but I truly believe this is our today. It's an enormous privilege to be able to choose how you spend your working hours, and it's out of the hands of most people. I personally use this energy to fuel me to find the best tradeoff of time and enjoyment in my employment, and try not to feel too jealous when I hear about people getting to live their life doing passion projects instead of a 9-5!
According to Chad's goodbye letter, he now works at Home Depot. Or, well, he was starting there a week after he published his letter. It's possible he just has low living expenses.
I assume they have low living expenses because their years at a highly compensated job allowed them to buy property and save some money for unforeseen expenditures. It's not something you do lightly when you are already craping by or have at most 12 months of salary saved up.
I'm suppose I'm in a similar situation. I left Apple about five years ago at 39. I tried Shopify a couple years ago or so ago and it was terrible, so back to small software, woodworking, and the birdiverse. I do still like coding, though, so I still write code the same way someone whittles: because they like it and want to. No other reason needed
I was a lucky recipient of "Years at a highly compensated job, with success in investments made" with the a couple caveats.
I am frugal to a point of it possibly being an actual disorder. I really like doing things my self and I really like learning. I don't mind making chicken stock, pulling weeds, making deodorant, etc, although this could be stockholm syndrome from the previous item.
My plan had been had been early retirement since my early twenties, so I made choices to facilitate that. I aggressively paid down my primary residence and would reduce my loan term every time I refinanced. Classical finical advisor advice is to build net-worth through leverage, but for me, the only way to be free is to be debt free.
Fwiw... I've also been envious watching FAANGers living paycheck to paycheck. It is hard for me to image that amount of money being spent on day-to-day life and what that would be like. I actually tried instead of retiring early to just try and spend my paycheck, but I could not.
Betting your career against the thing (it seems) all companies are hyper-scaling towards is a big bet. Either you’re right and the world will always need people who know how software works, or you’re wrong and you’re left in the dust
If quitting right now is not an option or you really want to keep working in IT but don't want to work with AI, it's the only reasonable thing you can do. I wouldn't even call it a bet. If your "bet" was wrong, you can still quit. In the meantime, try to save as much as possible while figuring out what a career switch could look like. At least, that's what it looks like for me right now.
During the last decade, I’ve been documenting what I called "disconnection" (the first one being 3 months without social network, the second one being one year with only one Internet connection per day. That one I gave up after 5 months).
Ironically, those blog posts were highly popular and created lot of emails. One of my friend wrote a book about 6 months without Internet in 2012. He was invited in all talk shows of the country.
So, if you truly want to disconnect, you have to do it silently.
I could not do it fully. While disconnecting, I created Offpunk which, I realize now, allowed me to browse the web and subscribe to RSS while "technically disconnected". I’m so terminally addict that I created a whole project not to disconnect while pretending I do. I’m not really proud of that…
But even if I managed to do it, even if my career would benefit from it (!’m a writer, I write a lot more disconnected), real life always find a way. My last disconnection failed because I had multiple travels to book and organize and it was impossible not to be online. I’m still tying to think about it…
I could not do it fully. While disconnecting, I created Offpunk which, I realize now, allowed me to browse the web and subscribe to RSS while "technically disconnected". I’m so terminally addict that I created a whole project not to disconnect while pretending I do. I’m not really proud of that…
Even though it didn't work for your overall goal, I still think you created a useful thing there. When disconnection isn't practical, (for whatever reason that may be) it seems like harm reduction to have a setup where you're mindful about when and how you're connected. I think Offpunk is a very nice step in that direction, and you could be proud of having built that even if you're disappointed that what you built wasn't really furthering your goal at the time.
To me it feels the dichotomy between Online and Offline is a little overly stark. I've been working for the last couple years on building online spaces that only have people I have met IRL. It's turned out to be a great alternative!
It's got a lot of the benefits of being Online (easy to share media asynchronously, have conversations asynchronously, etc), and next to none of the downsides (e.g. no danger of slop (people that get invited are already the type who don't share slop), people have high levels of investment and friendliness.) There are benefits to being geographically colocated also - the communities are a great source of interesting events around town.
I think there's a spectrum between "only signal chats with people who have my phone number" and "posting for the world on X.com", and lots of happy media in the middle - I'd be interested to hear what strategies other people are trying (Lobste.rs is certainly one of the media in the middle, so too is tildes.net and other invite-only communities).
I ordered issue #1 on 2nd of June and received it yesterday on 15th of September. Chad‘s return letter was signed on 8th of July. Offline does have a different pace.
The good life is: eating nice food, talking with people you like about ideas that are interesting to you, doing some outdoor activities, playing games, gossiping, music, art, dancing, sex, watching your children get older, having a pet express its love to you, having medical care available so you don't die young and don't suffer too much when you do…
Very little of that is improved much by the Online. Most of it is actively harmed tbh? At best Online is a thing you do to make the things that are actually good easier to do (you go online and find people you like to talk to, fellow game players, dating prospects, etc.). I don't think the human condition will change much even if AI makes white collar work very different in the near to medium term.
munificent | a day ago
As someone who finds the massive financial/technological/social revolution we're going through with AI extremely unsettling, I find the temptation to do this very strong.
So far, I'm still here. One of the main reasons is that even if I were to find some sort of way to make an offline living that provides good healthcare, that still isn't a complete escape to No AI Island. I will still be living in a world populated by people using AI, surrounded by companies using AI, paying taxes to a government deeply intertwined with AI. Even if I were to not own a car, it's not like I'm not still affected by parking lots, roads, smog, climate change, etc.
And if I'm going to be in a world deeply steeped in and affected by AI, I may as well understand it to some degree and use the technological skills that I have and that I enjoy using.
andrewrk | a day ago
See ya, take care. I'll be here trying to fix the Online with all my strength. Welcome back whenever
datarama | 23 hours ago
Same - to what modest extent I can. But I'm so, so tired.
(and, to be frank, I don't really have much to offer in the Offline.)
gspr | 14 hours ago
Indeed. The Online used to be good. It added fantastic things to the Offline. The monetary cost of Online has plummeted since then. Even though the Online has also gone to shit, surely the good times could be revived now that the associated infrastructure costs are next to zero?
1amzave | a day ago
The Offline sounds more and more appealing with each passing day.
I'm well below traditional retirement age, but have been thinking about it a lot lately.
gcupc | a day ago
Personally, I have been increasingly offline for the last year plus, to the point that I am even neglecting smol online things like gopher and geminiprotocol. Things that I would have written a gemlog about are resting in my notebook. Things I think I still might publish one day get typed into my org-mode notes, but so far, I haven't gotten around to reworking any of them. Disappointingly, it's the bigger more satisfying online things that I've dropped, while some of the trivial stuff stays just because the investment of attention required is lower.
If I could retire today, I would. I've still got over ten years left on the traditional retirement path, though I think it's not likely to be there waiting for me when I get there.
trenchant | a day ago
Traditional retirement is overrated. There are nonprofit jobs that yield meaning, community, and food on the table!
conor | 23 hours ago
From the post:
I very much relate to the feeling of my brain jumping to try make the math work for myself, but I disagree with the first part of that statement. I think it's very important to consider the brass tacks of how a situation like this is possible for someone, and wouldn't trivialize it! From my perspective, this type of change is impossible without at least one of:
It might seem very defeatist or nihilistic, but I truly believe this is our today. It's an enormous privilege to be able to choose how you spend your working hours, and it's out of the hands of most people. I personally use this energy to fuel me to find the best tradeoff of time and enjoyment in my employment, and try not to feel too jealous when I hear about people getting to live their life doing passion projects instead of a 9-5!
datarama | 22 hours ago
According to Chad's goodbye letter, he now works at Home Depot. Or, well, he was starting there a week after he published his letter. It's possible he just has low living expenses.
manfred | 20 hours ago
I assume they have low living expenses because their years at a highly compensated job allowed them to buy property and save some money for unforeseen expenditures. It's not something you do lightly when you are already craping by or have at most 12 months of salary saved up.
brad | 14 hours ago
I'm suppose I'm in a similar situation. I left Apple about five years ago at 39. I tried Shopify a couple years ago or so ago and it was terrible, so back to small software, woodworking, and the birdiverse. I do still like coding, though, so I still write code the same way someone whittles: because they like it and want to. No other reason needed
I was a lucky recipient of "Years at a highly compensated job, with success in investments made" with the a couple caveats.
I am frugal to a point of it possibly being an actual disorder. I really like doing things my self and I really like learning. I don't mind making chicken stock, pulling weeds, making deodorant, etc, although this could be stockholm syndrome from the previous item.
My plan had been had been early retirement since my early twenties, so I made choices to facilitate that. I aggressively paid down my primary residence and would reduce my loan term every time I refinanced. Classical finical advisor advice is to build net-worth through leverage, but for me, the only way to be free is to be debt free.
Fwiw... I've also been envious watching FAANGers living paycheck to paycheck. It is hard for me to image that amount of money being spent on day-to-day life and what that would be like. I actually tried instead of retiring early to just try and spend my paycheck, but I could not.
sjamaan | 21 hours ago
If quitting right now is not an option or you really want to keep working in IT but don't want to work with AI, it's the only reasonable thing you can do. I wouldn't even call it a bet. If your "bet" was wrong, you can still quit. In the meantime, try to save as much as possible while figuring out what a career switch could look like. At least, that's what it looks like for me right now.
ploum | 20 hours ago
During the last decade, I’ve been documenting what I called "disconnection" (the first one being 3 months without social network, the second one being one year with only one Internet connection per day. That one I gave up after 5 months).
Ironically, those blog posts were highly popular and created lot of emails. One of my friend wrote a book about 6 months without Internet in 2012. He was invited in all talk shows of the country.
So, if you truly want to disconnect, you have to do it silently.
I could not do it fully. While disconnecting, I created Offpunk which, I realize now, allowed me to browse the web and subscribe to RSS while "technically disconnected". I’m so terminally addict that I created a whole project not to disconnect while pretending I do. I’m not really proud of that…
But even if I managed to do it, even if my career would benefit from it (!’m a writer, I write a lot more disconnected), real life always find a way. My last disconnection failed because I had multiple travels to book and organize and it was impossible not to be online. I’m still tying to think about it…
hoistbypetard | 20 hours ago
Even though it didn't work for your overall goal, I still think you created a useful thing there. When disconnection isn't practical, (for whatever reason that may be) it seems like harm reduction to have a setup where you're mindful about when and how you're connected. I think Offpunk is a very nice step in that direction, and you could be proud of having built that even if you're disappointed that what you built wasn't really furthering your goal at the time.
henderson | 13 hours ago
To me it feels the dichotomy between Online and Offline is a little overly stark. I've been working for the last couple years on building online spaces that only have people I have met IRL. It's turned out to be a great alternative!
It's got a lot of the benefits of being Online (easy to share media asynchronously, have conversations asynchronously, etc), and next to none of the downsides (e.g. no danger of slop (people that get invited are already the type who don't share slop), people have high levels of investment and friendliness.) There are benefits to being geographically colocated also - the communities are a great source of interesting events around town.
I think there's a spectrum between "only signal chats with people who have my phone number" and "posting for the world on X.com", and lots of happy media in the middle - I'd be interested to hear what strategies other people are trying (Lobste.rs is certainly one of the media in the middle, so too is tildes.net and other invite-only communities).
cinemast | a day ago
What a coincidence, my gift magazine came today in the mail.
simonw | a day ago
From Chad? What's it like, and does he seem happy?
Garbi | 15 hours ago
On my lunch hour just now I actually drove to his church but it was closed. I guess I'll write.
jaculabilis | a day ago
Issue #2 or #3?
cinemast | a day ago
I ordered issue #1 on 2nd of June and received it yesterday on 15th of September. Chad‘s return letter was signed on 8th of July. Offline does have a different pace.
carlana | 10 hours ago
What is best in life?
Well, making a movie reference, obviously.
The good life is: eating nice food, talking with people you like about ideas that are interesting to you, doing some outdoor activities, playing games, gossiping, music, art, dancing, sex, watching your children get older, having a pet express its love to you, having medical care available so you don't die young and don't suffer too much when you do…
Very little of that is improved much by the Online. Most of it is actively harmed tbh? At best Online is a thing you do to make the things that are actually good easier to do (you go online and find people you like to talk to, fellow game players, dating prospects, etc.). I don't think the human condition will change much even if AI makes white collar work very different in the near to medium term.