Ahh, the old both sides are the same cop out. Last I checked, it was the republicans who keep trying to mess with voting, not the democrats. In fact, it’s democrats that have, and continue to, fight for laws to protect our elections. Efforts which republicans have fought tooth and nail against.
Billionaires are messing with voting, and the reason they are doing that is that if they didn't, Republicans couldn't win enough. If Democrats couldn't win enough, then they'd be messing with the voting in the other direction. The problem is not Republicans (although they represent a lot of problematic viewpoints). The problem is billionaires messing with voting.
As long as billioniares can keep up the impression that Republicans are a real party representing real view points, they can continue to corrupt what Democrats represent, making them merely the lesser evil, but still doing what billionaires want.
It's important to note that there's no need to “[increase] trust and confidence in our elections” as there's no real distrust, lack of confidence, or proof of claims by those who think otherwise. This only exists as an issue because trump wants it to be. Big government really is a scary thing.
Imagine living in a civilized country with national ID cards.
Given the costs associated with getting a passport or driver’s license, maybe Republicans should be prioritizing launching more accessible national ID offices with more reasonable costs, such as the $4 USD cost in Chile for a carnet/ID. This is a “Real ID” and $4 and a visit to one of the many municipal offices in a town or city versus the $46 USD and DMV hell that getting a drivers license costs in California.
And for foreigners who read this…yes, you need a driver’s license as an ID even if you live in a city and don’t drive. And while a $165 passport is an investment everyone should make, 60% of native-born Americans don’t have a passport.
Note that only about 5-10% countries in the world don’t have national ID cards, and for the 90-95% that do, they are compulsory for about 70% countries.
Consider this the tip of the iceberg. If they managed to turn every one of us into an indentured servant their thirst for dominance would not be quenched.
I find the American aversion to showing ID to vote eccentric, to say the least.
Of the 193 countries recognised by the UN, 176, including all but one of the European nations, Canada, Mexico, most of South America, Australia, New Zealand, and India have voter ID requirements. Africa is an exception, with few countries requiring voter ID because few countries have standardised ID at all. They range from extremely democratic to significantly less so. It is worth noting that the countries that are ranked highests in the Economist Democracy Index, the University of Wurtzburg Matrix and the World Population Review all have voter ID requirements.
The system does not collapse, nor do billionaires run rampant if voters have to show ID, anymore than if you have to have a license to drive or a Social Insurance/Social Security number. Honest.
The problem is that, unlike in most of those countries, we don't have a national ID. And since we don't give IDs to everyone, and the US is quite rural, it necessarily disenfranchises a ton of citizens.
In Canada, we don't have a national ID either. Elections Canada accepts any photo ID issued by a federal, provincial or municipal government, or two pieces of ID if one is photo ID issued by an institution like a university or the provincial health plan. A national ID isn't needed. And when it comes to rural, I suspect we are at least equal on that score, yet rural Canadians are active voters.
According to Elections Canada, you have three options: government photo ID; or two pieces of ID with your name (neither has to be photo, and a utility bill plus a student card works); or, if you have no ID at all, you sign a declaration and someone from your polling area vouches for you.
That's a pretty inclusive system. Compare that to a lot of the US, which accept only government-issued photo ID, with no vouching and no non-photo option. If the US proposals looked like Canada's, I'd have much less objection.
Edit: I'm not sure why, but this user blocked me...
> Compare that to a lot of the US, which accept only government-issued photo ID
And not even all government IDs. Some states rule that certain government-issued IDs don't qualify. Student IDs for state universities are a popular disqualification target.
So, the problem isn't ID per se, but narrow scope and rigidity in the requirement. Gotcha. It's a shame requirements similar to ours were not introduced decades ago: it would have made it much, much harder for the present Administration to fling fantasies of widespread voter fraud now, and potentially impose a repressive and malignant law now.
What would be even more interesting would be a global study comparing voter ID requirements with the most respected democracy indices and see what, if any, co-relations there are between inclusive laws and democratic ratings.
Yes, but Elections Canada is a unified non-partisan entity interested in the preservation of democracy, where the elections boards of the various states are individually run by partisan appointees some of whom are interested in shifting the rules to give their people an edge.
SO, to get a fair system with sufficient leeway to include the maximum number of citizens without allowing non-citizens to participate, you really do need to overhaul the entire voting structure. Given the present social and economic tensions, that would be a nearly insuperable challenge!
Do you have a 150 year history of people pretending that an ID is fake or using any other gate to try to prevent minorities from voting? Have people, in anticipation of voter ID, deliberately shut down DMVs in poorer neighborhoods and raised prices way above what's needed to fund systems? Have you entrenched a series of laws designed to make revocation of ID common for the poor and the brown?
At last! An American admits Canada (and many other places) is just fine precisely because it is NOT the USA!
Most presently democratic nations went through a period like you describe. There was fight back from the powerful to keep the poorer from being given the franchise. But most got through that period in less than a generation, because the people fought unrelentingly for their rights and the powerful gave way to retain some power. In Canada, I remember when descendants of the Family Compact/The Catholic-Anglophone alliance were deferred to before Trudeau Senior opened the gates to multicultural, multilingual immigration that drowned them, especially in English Canada, in immigrants of all colours and languages. To this day, Quebec remains hyper vigilant against both anglo and religious influence.
In the US, that period became an entrenched way of life for, as you say, 150 years. The rest of us are fine to the degree we did not get mired down like that. So much for the City on the Hill, nu?
We have a system that's quite secure without it. This obsession that everything else needs an id, so why not voting, is just OCD. There's no need and it only suppresses voting. Why insist on it?
It honestly feels like opposition, for the sake of opposition because the other party proposed it first, which seems to be increasingly common place. It’s bizzare to watch Republicans increasingly interfere with the markets and even taking stakes in companies. At the same time Democrats are annoyed that we’re not importing labour to work for below minimum wage, while also claiming minimum wage needs to be a lot higher. Nothing makes sense anymore.
I really don't think its too much to ask to show some form of ID to verify your voter registration before you vote. That is a very low bar. You have to show ID for almost everything in life whether important or mundane. There is no argument for not verifying ID other than voter fraud.
There are constitutional protections that voting cannot be taxed, or something along those lines. If you want mandatory IDs, that's fine; but you must provide those IDs for free and in a way that does not require a person to take time off work or travel many miles to obtain. Otherwise the ID provision only exists to make it harder for poor people to vote.
As someone not in the US, is there no requirement for ID currently? Do you just vouch that you are who you are?
ID is required for me to vote in Canada, but the list of accepted forms is extensive, and includes things like a utility bill or credit card statement with your name and address on it. All else fails, you can have another registered voter vouch for you.
Voter ID has historically been used to deter poor people (and particularly black communities) from voting.
Not everyone drives. Not everyone can afford to get an ID. (Not just the cost but the time off work)
And before that, many who survived WWII felt that "show me your ID" was a little too close to "papers please." Which isn't the same situation as voting, just saying there was a time when meant Americans felt an ID was something they didn't want or need to own. It was for driving or getting into bars, not to verify yourself to the government. Because the government needed to back the fuck off.
I get where your coming from. Just sharing how much has changed. I don't know anyone who feels like that anymore. There used to be Americans who were uncomfortable with the whole idea of social security numbers.
As someone who is from a country ravaged by WWII, I have never heard this take. It is also shocking to me that you don’t require any ID at the polling station, I’m quite confident every EU country does and literally nobody has a problem with it.
Keep in mind that the state verifies who is eligible to vote and keeps those lists current while cross checking them with other states to make sure no one is double registered. The only reason to show ID at all is to make sure you are picking up your own ballot.
Meanwhile, Republicans keep trying to create new extra special IDs with new marks you have to get off work and pay for to vote every decade or so while disqualifying other common government issued picture IDs.
Democrats rightfully say, hey, no one is forging fake IDs to swipe ballots. Audits paid for by republicans keep finding no voter fraud whenever they have to show their work to a court instead of shouting headlines. So stop the wasteful and slow security theater.
briank2112 | a day ago
Nothing scares a Republican quite like a voter…
jankenpoo | 21 hours ago
If they didn’t cheat, they would never win
jawdirk | 17 hours ago
Billionaires aren't Republican or Democrat, they are both.
briank2112 | 11 hours ago
Ahh, the old both sides are the same cop out. Last I checked, it was the republicans who keep trying to mess with voting, not the democrats. In fact, it’s democrats that have, and continue to, fight for laws to protect our elections. Efforts which republicans have fought tooth and nail against.
jawdirk | 7 hours ago
Billionaires are messing with voting, and the reason they are doing that is that if they didn't, Republicans couldn't win enough. If Democrats couldn't win enough, then they'd be messing with the voting in the other direction. The problem is not Republicans (although they represent a lot of problematic viewpoints). The problem is billionaires messing with voting.
As long as billioniares can keep up the impression that Republicans are a real party representing real view points, they can continue to corrupt what Democrats represent, making them merely the lesser evil, but still doing what billionaires want.
plassteel01 | a day ago
Billionaires know where it is at to control the people who they want to vote and those they want to exclude
yrotsihfoedisgnorw | a day ago
It's important to note that there's no need to “[increase] trust and confidence in our elections” as there's no real distrust, lack of confidence, or proof of claims by those who think otherwise. This only exists as an issue because trump wants it to be. Big government really is a scary thing.
mattpeloquin | 10 hours ago
Imagine living in a civilized country with national ID cards.
Given the costs associated with getting a passport or driver’s license, maybe Republicans should be prioritizing launching more accessible national ID offices with more reasonable costs, such as the $4 USD cost in Chile for a carnet/ID. This is a “Real ID” and $4 and a visit to one of the many municipal offices in a town or city versus the $46 USD and DMV hell that getting a drivers license costs in California.
And for foreigners who read this…yes, you need a driver’s license as an ID even if you live in a city and don’t drive. And while a $165 passport is an investment everyone should make, 60% of native-born Americans don’t have a passport.
Note that only about 5-10% countries in the world don’t have national ID cards, and for the 90-95% that do, they are compulsory for about 70% countries.
jankenpoo | 21 hours ago
The most unAmerican thing, to prevent citizens from voting. Do we still think Billionaires are good for the country?
Egad86 | 20 hours ago
Billionaires need to show their tax refunds then
FanDry5374 | 22 hours ago
We need to rid ourselves of billionaires. One way or another.
ViolettaQueso | 17 hours ago
Welp then I’m voting for the billionaire tax.
mrcanard | 9 hours ago
Consider this the tip of the iceberg. If they managed to turn every one of us into an indentured servant their thirst for dominance would not be quenched.
MrsWidgery | 23 hours ago
I find the American aversion to showing ID to vote eccentric, to say the least.
Of the 193 countries recognised by the UN, 176, including all but one of the European nations, Canada, Mexico, most of South America, Australia, New Zealand, and India have voter ID requirements. Africa is an exception, with few countries requiring voter ID because few countries have standardised ID at all. They range from extremely democratic to significantly less so. It is worth noting that the countries that are ranked highests in the Economist Democracy Index, the University of Wurtzburg Matrix and the World Population Review all have voter ID requirements.
The system does not collapse, nor do billionaires run rampant if voters have to show ID, anymore than if you have to have a license to drive or a Social Insurance/Social Security number. Honest.
figures | 21 hours ago
It’s another poll tax as thing are currently situated in the US
Eyeon_82 | 20 hours ago
Can't speak for others countries, but you don't need to show ID to vote in Australia.
MrsWidgery | 20 hours ago
I stand corrected: checking again, it seems I misread an entry on the grid . Thanks for correcting me.
PhroneticReflex | 21 hours ago
The problem is that, unlike in most of those countries, we don't have a national ID. And since we don't give IDs to everyone, and the US is quite rural, it necessarily disenfranchises a ton of citizens.
MrsWidgery | 20 hours ago
In Canada, we don't have a national ID either. Elections Canada accepts any photo ID issued by a federal, provincial or municipal government, or two pieces of ID if one is photo ID issued by an institution like a university or the provincial health plan. A national ID isn't needed. And when it comes to rural, I suspect we are at least equal on that score, yet rural Canadians are active voters.
PhroneticReflex | 19 hours ago
According to Elections Canada, you have three options: government photo ID; or two pieces of ID with your name (neither has to be photo, and a utility bill plus a student card works); or, if you have no ID at all, you sign a declaration and someone from your polling area vouches for you.
That's a pretty inclusive system. Compare that to a lot of the US, which accept only government-issued photo ID, with no vouching and no non-photo option. If the US proposals looked like Canada's, I'd have much less objection.
Edit: I'm not sure why, but this user blocked me...
CountofAccount | 16 hours ago
> Compare that to a lot of the US, which accept only government-issued photo ID
And not even all government IDs. Some states rule that certain government-issued IDs don't qualify. Student IDs for state universities are a popular disqualification target.
MrsWidgery | 10 hours ago
So, the problem isn't ID per se, but narrow scope and rigidity in the requirement. Gotcha. It's a shame requirements similar to ours were not introduced decades ago: it would have made it much, much harder for the present Administration to fling fantasies of widespread voter fraud now, and potentially impose a repressive and malignant law now.
What would be even more interesting would be a global study comparing voter ID requirements with the most respected democracy indices and see what, if any, co-relations there are between inclusive laws and democratic ratings.
Had I but world enough and time.....
Mantipath | 19 hours ago
Yes, but Elections Canada is a unified non-partisan entity interested in the preservation of democracy, where the elections boards of the various states are individually run by partisan appointees some of whom are interested in shifting the rules to give their people an edge.
MrsWidgery | 10 hours ago
SO, to get a fair system with sufficient leeway to include the maximum number of citizens without allowing non-citizens to participate, you really do need to overhaul the entire voting structure. Given the present social and economic tensions, that would be a nearly insuperable challenge!
Mantipath | 19 hours ago
Do you have a 150 year history of people pretending that an ID is fake or using any other gate to try to prevent minorities from voting? Have people, in anticipation of voter ID, deliberately shut down DMVs in poorer neighborhoods and raised prices way above what's needed to fund systems? Have you entrenched a series of laws designed to make revocation of ID common for the poor and the brown?
If not, that's why you're fine.
But if so, you're not actually fine.
MrsWidgery | 9 hours ago
At last! An American admits Canada (and many other places) is just fine precisely because it is NOT the USA!
Most presently democratic nations went through a period like you describe. There was fight back from the powerful to keep the poorer from being given the franchise. But most got through that period in less than a generation, because the people fought unrelentingly for their rights and the powerful gave way to retain some power. In Canada, I remember when descendants of the Family Compact/The Catholic-Anglophone alliance were deferred to before Trudeau Senior opened the gates to multicultural, multilingual immigration that drowned them, especially in English Canada, in immigrants of all colours and languages. To this day, Quebec remains hyper vigilant against both anglo and religious influence.
In the US, that period became an entrenched way of life for, as you say, 150 years. The rest of us are fine to the degree we did not get mired down like that. So much for the City on the Hill, nu?
CalabreseAlsatian | 5 hours ago
Was in Ville Quebec in June. So many Catholic churches… and every single one of them was shuttered. Closed. Not open for business.
Except one that had been converted to a library.
I was so happy to see that. A great blueprint for the US to emulate.
President_Camacho | 18 hours ago
We have a system that's quite secure without it. This obsession that everything else needs an id, so why not voting, is just OCD. There's no need and it only suppresses voting. Why insist on it?
m0nty555 | 15 hours ago
It honestly feels like opposition, for the sake of opposition because the other party proposed it first, which seems to be increasingly common place. It’s bizzare to watch Republicans increasingly interfere with the markets and even taking stakes in companies. At the same time Democrats are annoyed that we’re not importing labour to work for below minimum wage, while also claiming minimum wage needs to be a lot higher. Nothing makes sense anymore.
Crazy_names | 19 hours ago
I really don't think its too much to ask to show some form of ID to verify your voter registration before you vote. That is a very low bar. You have to show ID for almost everything in life whether important or mundane. There is no argument for not verifying ID other than voter fraud.
My_Name_Is_Steven | 16 hours ago
There are constitutional protections that voting cannot be taxed, or something along those lines. If you want mandatory IDs, that's fine; but you must provide those IDs for free and in a way that does not require a person to take time off work or travel many miles to obtain. Otherwise the ID provision only exists to make it harder for poor people to vote.
dragoneye | 16 hours ago
As someone not in the US, is there no requirement for ID currently? Do you just vouch that you are who you are?
ID is required for me to vote in Canada, but the list of accepted forms is extensive, and includes things like a utility bill or credit card statement with your name and address on it. All else fails, you can have another registered voter vouch for you.
daretoeatapeach | 15 hours ago
Voter ID has historically been used to deter poor people (and particularly black communities) from voting.
Not everyone drives. Not everyone can afford to get an ID. (Not just the cost but the time off work)
And before that, many who survived WWII felt that "show me your ID" was a little too close to "papers please." Which isn't the same situation as voting, just saying there was a time when meant Americans felt an ID was something they didn't want or need to own. It was for driving or getting into bars, not to verify yourself to the government. Because the government needed to back the fuck off.
I get where your coming from. Just sharing how much has changed. I don't know anyone who feels like that anymore. There used to be Americans who were uncomfortable with the whole idea of social security numbers.
m0nty555 | 15 hours ago
As someone who is from a country ravaged by WWII, I have never heard this take. It is also shocking to me that you don’t require any ID at the polling station, I’m quite confident every EU country does and literally nobody has a problem with it.
aerostriker77 | 14 hours ago
You’ve probably never heard it because its an invented obstacle the left in America uses to enable voter fraud.
President_Camacho | 18 hours ago
There's no upside though. It doesn't accomplish anything except suppress voting.
CountofAccount | 16 hours ago
Keep in mind that the state verifies who is eligible to vote and keeps those lists current while cross checking them with other states to make sure no one is double registered. The only reason to show ID at all is to make sure you are picking up your own ballot.
Meanwhile, Republicans keep trying to create new extra special IDs with new marks you have to get off work and pay for to vote every decade or so while disqualifying other common government issued picture IDs.
Democrats rightfully say, hey, no one is forging fake IDs to swipe ballots. Audits paid for by republicans keep finding no voter fraud whenever they have to show their work to a court instead of shouting headlines. So stop the wasteful and slow security theater.