> You can save a lot of money in maintenance and repairs by doing your own work whenever possible.
True. But even if you have the physical ability, skills, tools, and equipment handy - you can spend a lot of time on maintenance & repairs. Just ask anyone who's done yard work for a few years, or has repainted a house, or ...
Depending on the job, you can also do it better yourself than what you can reasonably pay for.
I built a custom shelf for my closet. It'd have costed me an arm and a leg to have someone else do that, even with a tech worker's salary.
I also built a custom walk-in closet. It took me a day, saved me over 2k and I got a better quality closet out of it. (You find find built yourself a walk-in-closet kits that are easy to assemble, it really isn't that hard, just don't get the home depot level quality ones.)
Depends if you would be getting paid during the time spent doing these projects. People with flexible vacation time might even be getting paid while doing the work. But otherwise weekends and evenings are great times for smaller home projects.
There are other opportunity costs other than direct monetary income.
For example, to mow your lawn, you have to find a time to do it every couple of weeks when the weather cooperates, be at home at that time, store and maintain the equipment, have a pair of "grass shoes", clean up afterwards, etc.
This might be worth the effort if you don't have much disposable income. But if you have money to blow, hiring someone to mow your lawn can give you more time to do something else you'd rather do.
That maintenance has to happen one way or another, hiring someone to do it can add quite a multiplier to the price. For example, I was recently looking at water heaters and called 4 different plumbers to get a quote. All of them came in around $5,000 for the job. The water heater they quoted costs $1,000 retail at Lowes. If you know what you are doing it isn't even difficult to install.
That said a layperson probably won't know the new code requirements in their jurisdiction and if you sell your house you'll have the inspector tut-tutting the work for one reason or another.
Hah, although, admittedly, when my AC died here I was looking at quotes for $17K for replacement (although I did also do the furnace at the same time, since both were early 1980s and basic models even then). "Why? I could buy the AC for $4K".
"Surely it wouldn't be too hard to undo/redo piping etc." But yeah, different refrigerant, different code requirements for vents and exhausts and drains. 4 people working for 16 hours, I saw where the money went.
I spent my 30s playing "this old house" when I could have made significant amounts of money just working more consulting hours. Yeah, I enjoy some home improvement and maintenance tasks, but I also enjoy financial security and pain-free joints. The tools and things required to maintain a home also take space you could use for hobbies or simply downsize. Home maintenance makes sense for folks with lower value skills and less means to side hustle though.
A condo will have an HOA which is responsible for things like fixing the roof.
However, not all HOAs are actually financially responsible. So they might raise monthly fees, issue “special assessments” (lump-sum charges that can be $10k+) or take on loans. And they decide when they will do that.
Yes, but so are some of the advantages (e.g. "More space and a quieter environment"). It's somewhere in between home ownership and apartment renting on the spectrum of living situations.
Which ones? Mortgage, real estate costs, repairs, maintenance are all still there with a condo.
My gut feeling is that repairs and maintenance cost more with condos than if you own a home and you're handy to fix minor stuff and know how to find good contractors for bigger jobs. I imagine condo jobs becomes more difficult and contractors charge more for those jobs. But I don't have data to back my hunch. Condo has extra issues in dealing with neighbor problems (issues with garbage, pets, unpaid fees, noise, etc...) and you have to maintain shared spaces (hallways, elevators, etc...) and you end up paying for that via your condo fees.
Condos basically just force you to pay for the ongoing maintenance that the author mentioned, but with the downside of not actually having any control over the quality of the work or the decision making process at all unless you're on the condo board.
Condos are generally the worst of both worlds, because you have almost all the responsibilities of homeownership combined with nearly all of the restrictions of renting an apartment.
There's a reason they appreciate significantly less than other types of property.
You can always go join your condo board meetings though. In my experience most HOA boards are filled with people who have seen horror stories of HOAs and don't want to live in a place with a bad one.
Sure sometimes they do make bad decisions, but you're welcome to just show up to their board meeting and give them some advice.
Owning a condo can be quite scary financially. If the building itself needs expensive repairs, the condo board can pass those costs down to the tenants.
You may own your condo, but the condo board can also hit you with a 6-figure bill for building repairs and aggregate maintenance. Enough to force you to get a new loan, even when you might still be paying your mortgage.
And if the tenants take issue with these kinds of bills (they frequently do), they can tie things up while things get worse and more expensive to repair.
This was actively a problem for the tenants at the center of the Surfside condominium collapse, with maintenance needs directly related to the problems that resulted in the collapse.
Condos may, and quite often do, have enormously expensive maintenance issues that the condo owners are quite unaware of until the last moment and will have to shell out for via special assessment from the condo association. Example from personal experience: very soon after moving into my condo, cracks were discovered on the other side of the building. They were investigated and it turned out that the building was made from substandard concrete. All exterior facing concrete needed to be replaced or the building would fall down. To pay for the fix, there was a special assessment that I needed to pay into, and to add insult to injury, for 2 years I could not use my theoretically beautiful view from the balcony and windows - it was all jackhammering and concrete dust.
Condos come with another problem: you don't own the land. The condo itself is a depreciating asset unless maintained and money is put into the unit and the building. You're also exposed to the risk of the area becoming less desirable, newer condos being built nearby, general economic trends, mismanagment of the property, etc.
With a mortgage, you are forced to save money. In other words you have no way around being disciplined. So yes in theory you could probably make more money with aggressive investing, but chances are most people would risk too much and lose a lot and never have the mental discipline of saving the excess they have no matter what happens in their life.
And then hope you're not one of the ~1/3 that end in a divorce at which point your house gets firesold to first low-balling flipper. House can be really bad anytime it's multiple people liquidating it -- I watched some other family members inherit a house and it sold for about half it's value because some family members weren't willing to wait more than a millisecond for the inheritance payout.
I made plenty of money (and still do) holding US treasuries and other safe investments. You don't need to gamble on stocks to have income from cash which offsets rent.
Beyond the financials, the psychological impact of both being able to make greater-than-superficial changes, and having extremely predictable payments for years without worrying about substantial rent increases, is substantial.
I redid/improved the bathroom to exactly what I wanted. I renovated the kitchen. I added paneling to the walls. I added a few outlets to rooms that needed more. I wouldn't do these things in an apartment, because rent could go up any year and exploit me for liking my home. Property value has gone up by 50% in the years since I bought.
However, getting rid of the parking means the project will likely detract from the value of the home. But since we don't have a car, let alone two, it makes sense for us to do the project anyway. Despite the warning of our realtor when we purchased the home.
I've noticed a lot of folks are afraid to personalize their homes because of concern about the value when they eventually sell.
Yeah, I agree with this. We have one car and no kids and every time we talk about some remodel. For example, we're talking about remodeling our kitchen and getting rid of our wildly oversized (read "normal American") appliances in exchange for more storage, counter, and floor space but the first thing friends and family talk about is resale value.
Firstly, my home isn't principally an investment vehicle.
Secondly, I'm pretty sure I can find a buyer who can conceive of popping over to the grocery store around the corner a couple times a week rather than pretending like they're living off the grid and have to drive 100 miles to the nearest town to buy their monthly provisions for a family of 13. :)
Once upon a time I had a car, a daily driver. I kept it clean, vacuum/wash/polish with crazy waxes and the works. Stressed out about people riding with dirty shoes, drinks, etc., and when I asked myself why, the usual self-justification was "ah it's for the resale value." Hearing relatives get charged various fees at lease returns just fed that attitude, even though I owned the car outright. One day it was time to replace the car, so I brought it to the dealer as tradein. They scanned the VIN, looked in their computer, and just quoted me a price without ever looking at the car, either cosmetics or mechanicals. That was the day I decided that I own the cars, not the other way around, and this attitude slowly expanded to real estate too ;). So now there is a clover field in our front yard and I ripped out the irrigation too. When we eventually sell this home in 2060 the buyers can take it or leave it
Of course, you should never sell the car to the dealer and should always make the effort to sell private party, which will often get you 50% or more greater than the dealers best offer.
Yes there are all those arguments. But it's a lot more work for still a pitiful amount of money.
Then on top of that after COVID dealer gave me $5k tradein for an Ecoboost car with a leaking cylinder wall, check engine light, missing parts, etc. where KBB was less than that. I really don't get it.
I agree with this, but there's also the psychological impact of being able to easily move when you get a new job or when your state government allows agriculture/industry to poison your water or whatever the case may be. You may also buy a property only to find out you have a certifiably insane neighbor and you can't easily move out because said neighbor has created a dispute that requires disclosure to prospective buyers and you are under water (as is the case for a friend of mine). While this is admittedly a niche case, there are millions of such things that can happen where you are suddenly under water (including a mortgage crisis) and flexibility becomes an advantage. I don't think there's a clear psychological winner between renting and buying.
There’s also a psychological benefit of not having to worry about most problems. Sink broke? Call landlord to fix. Roof leaking? Call landlord to fix. And so on. You never have an unexpected $20k repair show up.
And while I agree that it’s nice to customize things to your preferences, this has a downside in that it’s easy to get carried away and overspend. Might as well get the nicer finishes when you are remodeling, right? After all you’re paying so much for labor anyway. And you can’t have just your kitchen nice, now you need to upgrade the flooring in the whole house. And soon your small $30k improvement is $150k
> There’s also a psychological benefit of not having to worry about most problems. Sink broke? Call landlord to fix. Roof leaking? Call landlord to fix. And so on. You never have an unexpected $20k repair show up.
"Rent is the most you'll pay for housing, but mortgage and property taxes is the least amount."
> Sink broke? Call landlord to fix. Roof leaking? Call landlord to fix
Most landlords I've dealt with are an absolute pain to deal with when something breaks. It's often not that easy, maybe in high-cost / luxury rentals. Arguing over what is normal wear-and-tear, while knowing you cannot afford decent legal advice, and you also can't pay for the "unexpected repair" is just as bad.
> And you can’t have just your kitchen nice, now you need to upgrade the flooring
Yes you can. There is no need to have everything perfect...
Edit:
> You never have an unexpected $20k repair show up.
If this was even close to coming even with the added cost on rent, no one would be a landlord. It's obviously a lot less than rental overhead. So people could just set that aside (or get insurance).
> Beyond the financials, the psychological impact of both being able to make greater-than-superficial changes, and having extremely predictable payments for years without worrying about substantial rent increases, is substantial.
As a renter in a place that protects renters from radical increases year over year, I'd argue the only compelling sense of stability would be trading the risk of being evicted for that of losing the house
> I redid/improved the bathroom to exactly what I wanted. I renovated the kitchen. I added panelling to the walls. I added a few outlets to rooms that needed more.
I think this is an interesting differentiation that would either be very compelling for a hobbyist or carpenter, or someone who works on cars, but it's also crazy to me if I frame homeownership this way. I don't think a condo would really provide the surface area for such customization *if* I were a person to be interested in doing it, nor would a townhouse or duplex. It seems that at least in my city, the premium to be able to do something as common as paint the exterior of your home, is like $2.5m CAD, or $1m more than a newish townhome, or $1.5m more than modest condo, or $10000/m more (just on the mortgage) than renting a sufficiently sized place.
That's partly because the kind of place I can rent is dramatically smaller than the minimum size of a place that has a modifiable exterior, and it's one of the most expensive cities. I guess it's sort of a framing that makes clear how dystopian the class divide is; I don't have any interest in painting my house, but if I did, I'll never be able to, and if I could (at the current rates), I'd have to be incredibly unimaginative to allocate that much to the house that could hypothetically be painted.
I guess people who value the concept of a home in that way more than anything else would simply move someone where they can buy one, but I value so many other things more than hacking away on the walls that it's an absolute no-brainer to continue renting where I want to live despite the ambient sense that I have no sense of permanence secured by land
I absolutely don't see these as benefits... Living in the Netherlands, apartments owners typically have to pay "VVE" (service fee for the ongoing upkeep of the building where your apartment is), while house owners typically pay out of their pocket for any repairs they have to do.
This was my first time living in a house as opposed to an apartment. It's been three years of bitter regret, and I'm very eager to sell the damn thing and leave the nightmare behind. In the last three years, I had to re-paint the roof, replace the garden fence and a bunch of related stuff in the garden, replace the water boiler. I had to climb on the roof of the house to rake the leaves at least twice a year (not expensive, just scary). I had to repaint areas of the house because the previous owner did a crappy job painting them.
But, most importantly, it's a piece of junk. It's a typical front brick wall with the rest of the house made of wood covered in dry wall. Its foundation is going to skew and sink because... that's the general condition of everything in the Netherlands: the ground water is too close to the surface, so the foundation is too shallow. I can't hang anything heavy on the wall because the wall can't support it. Every wall is crooked and bent and so is the ceiling, so, for example, it's not possible to put a curtain railing on the ceiling...
Everything is made of perishable materials which will last five to ten years tops, and then everything needs to be torn down and redone. Looking at how my neighbors are spending their lives on the hamster wheel of infinite repairs... I want absolutely none of this. Some people enjoy sinking their time and finances into this black hole, but I'd rather just buy hard drugs for the same price all the way until I die. It's just an arduous and unrewarding toil.
“Extremely predictable payments” - I don’t own a home, so I don’t know about this - I have heard mostly horror stories about HOA. Can they hike maintenance fees arbitrarily? Also, what about insurance? Last I read, at least in FL, insurance cost is out of control, is that still true?
It is suggested to set aside 1%-3% of your home's overall value for repairs every year.
Most people do not do this, and many homes thus slowly degrade in value. It is a fast track way to destroy potential generational wealth.
Home repair issues also tend to be bursty (rule of three...). You'll have a few years of nothing that'll lull you into a false sense of security, then suddenly three major issues will come up. So far this year I've had nearly 10K in random expenses pop up (!!) and based on the life expectancy of my HVAC system I expect I'll have some more major expenses next year.
If there is one near to you, join a tool library. It is a huge savings over buying specialized tools for one off jobs. Tool libraries are an amazing community resource.
Find a good reliable handy man, even if you know how to do things yourself. Hopefully one you can trust with your door code so if your neighbors report running water while you are away on a trip you have someone you can call who you know will take care of it.
Most home repairs give warning. My roof is old but it wasn't hard to inspect it and conclude it is good for another year. If I have to replace it soon insurance will cover it.
A friend of mine had an interesting point there. It was more on a personal note that either of us had a hard time spending money on nice things for ourselves. Like, do you need better headphones, do you need this, do you really need that? Better not buy anything nice or fun.
A fairly unintuitive resolution to this is to setup a "fun and nonsense" budget and force yourself to spend it every half year, or to make a conscious plan on how to spend it over the year. If you plan the budget right, it won't hurt you, but it will force you to make your life better.
Maintenance, especially of owned property, seems similar to me. You should be saving up for the real "oh shit" situations, and you should accumulate a budget to just do things continuously. 6 months of routine maintenance budget saved up, what do we spend it on actively, before it becomes a mess?
> Most people do not do this, and many homes thus slowly degrade in value
I agree with the first part, people absolutely do shoddy work or none at all but the value doesn't seem to go down. My mother bought a house had it inspected beforehand but massive issues with the foundation and the roof showed up the following spring when there was heavy rain. Sure, all that can be fought with attorneys and insurance (both cost time and money) but it doesn't feel very good psychologically or physically to be dealing with so much paperwork and house repairs.
Sorry to rant, I think your comment is spot on... owning a house is expensive.
The trick if own can pull it off is to mortgage in an area with cost of living a step or two down from where one had previously been renting. This was easiest during the proliferation of remote work but can still happen with some persistence.
This way one’s housing costs feel like a bargain and savings (including repair reserves) quickly rack up unless the individual in question has serious problems holding onto money.
I would really recommend getting a Home Warranty. I probably saved myself $7-$8K just in the last year fixing all kinds of electrical, plumbing and HVAC issues.
Except in my experience the lack of upkeep doesn't actually affect the value all that much. In many places the vast majority of the price is the land and people seem less interested in valuing based on the condition of the structure. It may affect time to sell, but that seems about it. Sure some credits might be offered during escrow for some repairs, but again often the money is insufficient or the seller simply says no.
> It is suggested to set aside 1%-3% of your home's overall value for repairs every year.
Rob Carrick, a now (semi-)retired personanl finance writer in Canada, observed that owning a home tends to not be a forced saving plan but rather a forced spending plan:
The person counts the 12 month escrow prepayment during closing as "cost to get a loan" It's not. It's the cost of 12 months of taxes and insurance on your property.
Also notable is the "1 year insurance premium" either they're double counting the escrow, or this 1 year insurance premium is mortgage insurance where the bank makes you take out insurance to protect them. This can be prepaid, split paid, paid monthly, or you could put down 20%.
The lender makes you purchase title insurance for them, but this person also purchased title insurance for themselves. This is mostly just pure profit for the title company. The cost for the insurance is for the company to do the research, if they found an issue, they wouldn't insure the bank. Buying it for yourself is mostly just lighting money on fire.
A lot of those closing costs are shoppable, you can find better lenders. Before closing, you're given a truth in lending disclosure with all this carefully spelled out. If you don't do even basic due diligence, I question if you have the financial literacy to own a home.
I'll also note, they didn't mention in their closing costs paying for a home inspection (beyond termites). This is likely why they had to pay for real repairs on the house.
One of their "repairs" is new water pipes. There's no reason listed for this, but this is often pushed by door to door salesmen telling you need to do it to protect your property/health and is mostly, like all door to door sales, a scam.
That note about counting the cost of heating and cooling is similarly nonsense. They claim "apartments are almost always smaller than houses" which isn't true, and count electricity rate increases as cost of ownership, rentals have to pay that too. They also assert, with clearly no evidence that heating and cooling is half their electric bill. There's easy ways to figure this out, an emporia can do it easily.
The whole premise is flawed. They note that in the beginning only 20% of their payment goes to principle and A) you can control that (bigger downpayment so no PMI, less interest), bigger more frequent payments or a shorter loan, and B) exactly 0% of your rent payment goes to your principle.
This might better be an examination of "can I afford a mortgage with the same rent payment as I make today" and the answer, not surprisingly, is no, if your rent payments are a the top end of what you can afford.
>I bought my home in Auburn, WA for $321k, and sold it a few years later for $333k. After all the costs to buy and sell it, I probably lost more money on it than I would have spent renting an apartment.
Home ownership isn't a net positive from day one. Otherwise, everyone would always do it. Home ownership is net positive in the long run. It's a long term position. You don't day trade houses.
They also neglect the Mortage Interest Tax Deduction and State and Local Tax Deductions, whcih reduce the cost of both by your marginal tax rate, and is a big benefit towards owning.
More importantly, this neglects that buying a home is locking in the price for the long term for the majority of your housing cost. Buying usually is similar all in the first year, but after 5 years your mortage payment is the same while rent has probably gone up significantly.
On the other hand, renting comes with hidden (and some not so hidden) costs too.
The main one for me is the inherent precariousness that comes with renting. You don’t know how much longer you’re going to be able to stay in your apartment, whether that be due to rent hikes or the landlord deciding that they want to give the apartment to their nephew or any number of other things. The constant low level stress of knowing that you might need to go through the hell of apartment hunting and moving annually is awful.
It’s been much nicer to have a mortgage with more or less locked in monthly payment, even with the maintenance costs that come with the territory. It’s more predictable and frees up mental bandwidth for other things.
An important qualification: if you rented as a kid, and now your kids are old enough to rent, your maybe-not-horrible experience is dated and probably no longer applicable. Apartments have largely gone corporate, and I assume also been taken over by private equity. Even cell-phone companies could learn a thing or two from their tactics.
I have had very good experiences with corporate apartments. They tend to have their shit together. Compared to renting from some random old guy that wants to “fix things himself”
There's not much else a new owner is going to do with an apartment complex other than continue to rent out the units, other than possibly tear it down and rebuild if it's very old.
You lease remains in force even with a change in ownership. So in most cases there will be no immediate impact to tenants.
They tend to just keep increasing it until you leave then just dial it back a little and get someone else in. Far worse than individual landlord that if you're a good easy tenant is gonna prefer you to an unknown, corporate don't care about that.
> You don’t know how much longer you’re going to be able to stay in your apartment, whether that be due to rent hikes or the landlord deciding that they want to give the apartment to their nephew or any number of other things.
Absolutely. I had three landlords in a row promise all manner of things. "We're never coming back, moving to the country" (followed by "my wife hates it, we're moving back"). "We're looking to do other investments, we'd happily sign a 5 year lease with you if we could" (WA law limits residential lease lengths. Just as well for them because they decided "the property market is so hot it'd be irresponsible of us not to sell").
I prefer corporate rentals precisely because there is less idiosyncratic risk. They boringly have a strong incentive to keep you renting the same place as long as possible.
The cost of owning absolutely does increase over time. The mortgage payment is just one part of the fully burdened cost. Furthermore, there is a real risk of an unexpected $20k expense that you have to pay for. Owning is less predictable than renting because the liability and risk surface area is much larger.
I'm the UK at least, it's also common for the renter to pay council tax, which is analogous to property taxes in other countries.
I imagine this is also likely passed through in the cost of rent in other places.
That said, it's totally possible to have a legal and fiscal framework that makes renting affordable and safe.
The government, particularly in Western countries with insane pressure on the rental market, needs to act as a homebuilder and landlord of the last resort. It keeps supply up, prices and risk down.
We've had a couple of generations locked into the housing market as an investment, and it's causing demand crunches which have artificially inflated prices and are choking and dividing our societies.
I'd happily spend my life in a rental if it was affordable and safe, and part of a considerably more fair society.
Being forced to move in the middle of the school year because the owner want to sell the house kind of sucks, though 5 years of a month-to-month was a bad idea. More landlords are asswipes than not, being able to control your own destiny has advantages. After all, you are paying all of the costs plus a premium for the rental, and you don't even get the paint or floor covering you want, let alone nice things.
that's the nice thing about renting in germany. there this would not work, the owner can sell the house but they can't kick out the tenant. so whoever is buying is taking over the tenant. and while you can ask a tenant to move out if you need the house for yourself, that too has to consider the needs of the tenant. if they have kids in school it is almost impossible to remove them unless you go out of your way to help them find a new place and they are not forced to switch schools.
Buying a house with or without a mortgage is definitely a hedge against inflation. I have a couple of siblings in their 60s who are renting and the rents are going up much faster than their social security. Now in both of their cases the rent is about $300/mo higher than their social security. Adding in food, utilities and other expenses they're blowing through their meager savings.
I would argue against this. I'm not sure owning is that much better. At the very least it's just as bad as renting if you bought in the past few years... I bought my home in 2023 and since then my monthly HOA payments doubled, my insurance premiums (nearly) tripled and my property taxes have gone up about $1000. Homeownership went from 35% to 45% of my monthly income. If you bought in the past few years, owning has absolutely been nothing short of a liability.
Comes down to area and luck. I bought in 2021 and while there have been increases, they’ve been modest. Certainly much less than I would’ve had to deal with had I continued to rent.
For context, property values have gone up 40-50% since 2021. Additional expenses are much easier to digest when you're not already paying an arm and a leg for a house at much higher mortgage rates.
Buying into an HOA means you're effectively renting a portion of your living arrangements. And if the dues doubled in just three years then you bought into a mismanaged HOA, which makes it worse. There's not much you can do about insurance premiums (assuming you've shopped around for better rates) and property taxes, but definitely check the financial situation of the HOA before you buy, or avoid them entirely.
If I could design society, we’d all live in RVs or other trailer type things, own the structure and rent/buy land as appropriate. But I’m aware this is an unusual opinion.
It just seems nice to be able to customize the structure without being tied to a particular location.
I think 1% per year is insufficient for repairs. Even a paint job will cost more than that these days.
There's also a potential HOA fee, even in many neighborhoods with freestanding homes.
But there are tax benefits of home ownership too. The interest deduction used to very significant, although less now since they raised the standard deduction. There's also a $250K/500K non-taxable capital gains benefit when you sell a house for more than you paid.
It’s fairly unpleasant at least in my opinion. I don’t want to spend hours breathing fumes. Also it’s boring and repetitive. And finally, IME professional painting is far higher quality (especially if you are texturing or have any complex shapes to paint around).
Yep. Yet many on here (and other specific online forums) will tell you that your only options should be owning a home or renting an apartment because they don't feel the single family home they desire is within their price range, and resort to advocating for short-sighted, draconian policies as an means to an end that is favorable for them.
>You've probably heard someone say something to the effect of "renting is just throwing your money away". Don't believe it. It's a glib statement that simply isn't true.
If you take literally anything away from this article, this opening line is it. People who say this bought their house decades ago and have no clue what the present situation is.
Someone else's risk. Someone else's liability. I can end my lease and walk away without penalties or obligations. If anything happens to the property, it isn't my problem. I just need <$200/year renter's insurance, and my landlord is literally responsible for everything else, including things like my washer and dryer.
I can move on a whim, and the worst-case costs will be a modest lease termination fee and literal moving costs.
I don't know who is telling you this, but the people who gave me that line lived through several recessions including '08 and are still making money buying rental properties to this day. They know more about the present situation than you do.
When I was a homeowner (I recently exited), I found it incredibly discouraging how every vendor who came over for this or that looked at you like a walking sack of dollar bills after driving up to your home in a brand new pickup truck. When you do hire them, the owner never even shows up for a final inspection. There's a large part of the economy who knows their customers will treat their equity like a bank and prices accordingly.
Is there someplace that takes all of these inputs. Then graphs them over 10 or 20 years and include some adjustment for inflation? I didn't see in article any discussion about mortgage rates versus appreciation versus inflation.
Article did sum all the inputs/outputs, and came out at loss. I'm just wondering if there is some other trends over 10 or 20 years that make the house better.
Not all the inputs, but Ben Felix’s company (makes videos on this topic) has a rent vs buy calculator, mainly focused on investing the cost difference for mortgage vs renting: https://research-tools.pwlcapital.com/research/rent-vs-buy
People act like owning a home and coming out financially ahead is an inviolable law of physics. It is not. Buying a house is like purchasing an option to have something at a set price in the future. That option can be overpriced to the point where it is not profitable.
This isn't to say that there are not emotional aspects to owning, but that is a separate discussion.
Having your own home and property where no one on earth can tell you how to live: priceless.
Maybe home ownership is becoming a luxury, but humans don't exist in financial spreadsheets. The intagibles of SFH ownership are worth literally everything to me after a lifetime of renting.
It's also absolutely a class differentiator in the US. If you're behind on your rent and getting evicted, that's seen as a personal moral failure. If you're behind on your mortgage and getting foreclosed, it's considered a tragedy, and there are many options for support like forebearance. Just look at what happened during COVID; red state renters were getting knocked on by the sheriff within 90 days, while it can take years for someone to lose their house.
I zero'd out almost all these costs by building a shack myself and leaving it uninsured. Maintenance cost almost zero because I own all the tools and much the spare materials already form building the house. Cost of house $60,000 post COVID, there is a similar ready-built house next to me for sale almost $300,000.
> I bought this house new, and didn't live there very long
End of story. That's the entire conversation right there.
Note how much money he made on the house he lived in for a decent amount of time... (~330k, minus minor investments on repairs)
Renting is better than buying if you're not going to live in the house for any real duration (real meaning 5+ years).
Otherwise... at least in the US... the financials around 30 year mortgages and a target inflation rate mean buying is going to work in your favor.
Will this blow up at some point? Meh, maybe? But for now, owning is FAR better assuming you actually hold onto the property. The longer you hold, the better it gets.
I have a ~2000 sq foot ranch. A new roof was $25k. New siding was $55-85k depending on the material (vinyl vs james hardie). Gutters are $7k. I had a bunch of trees removed and a forestry mulcher out: $7k.
“Smart” people always tell us to rent. But ask any regular person if they’d rather own a home or rent and they will say own. Who cares about xyz costs or a lower investment return. The entire point is to have a stable base from which you and your family can thrive.
While this is true, I think the bar should be lower - the real question should be "and how does it compare to renting" - there is very possibly a universe where owning is cheaper than renting even if your home depreciates. Because paying some amount for years to be left with a fraction of what you put in is better than getting none of what you put in.
However many of us knowingly exceed that point. For example we pay ~$500/mo over that point. Though there is no really comparable rental, we definitely could have chosen a more cookie cutter rental to be about +$6000 / year.
Landlords do whatever the hell they like with zero consequences. Thats not a game I’d like to play with a 40 year horizon of unknowns.
With a mortgage the risk is interest rates. And on that I’m confident I can carry far more exposure than my peers. So if that blows up in my face then the entire country’s financial system is cooked anyway
In the US, median homeowner tenure is about 12 years. If the local price-to-rent ratio is high, (greater NYC metro for example) then you may have to stay 20 years to come out ahead financially. In a case like that, renting can be a very attractive strategy for building wealth.
I am a DIY-er by nature with construction experience, I enjoy it, so when we wanted a bit more outdoor space, we moved from a suburban cul-de-sac to a slightly more rural property on some acreage, and chose an aged luxury home, feeling comfortable generally in my ability to be able to rehab it over time. After all, we're not in any sort of rush, and wanted the kids to experience putting work into the place where they live.
I misjudged the scale. Going from .5 acre to 10 I feel like the amount of time I spent on home and property maintenance before could all be allocated to just one bucket titled "nature." Mowing, whether it's lawn, meadows, trails, tree line, all on different schedules. Trees die, they fall, hang up. The volume of brush, invasive species, pulling it, burning it. When we bought it, I made a mental note: "we'll have to replace the driveway." That driveway is asphalt, and 1000 feet long. The quotes for that alone are in price territory of a luxury vehicle. Irrigation, 12 zones, repairing, winterizing. Septic is another ticking clock. When that goes, you're in for 5 digits. Don't have a suitable secondary location? Engineered system, multiply everything by like 3.
So remove that time from my schedule, that's what I have left for home improvement work.
We're deep into it and really enjoy aspects of it. But if I could talk to my pre-purchase self, I would advise that the scale difference is huge, and consider the amount of time that goes into baseline maintenance when deciding how much of a "fixer upper" to take on, especially when acreage is involved.
> Septic is another ticking clock. When that goes, you're in for 5 digits.
But for the length they last it is less than my city sewer bill. Though if my septic fails I'll connect to the city system was the quote I got to do that was about what a new septic costs.
I think this really depends on your expectations. Let the driveway go to gravel. Only mow near near the house. Hardscape instead of 12 irrigation zones.
If you expect the whole place to be manicured like a city lot, yeah, that's a huge amount of work.
We maintain the areas around our house. The rest is just oak woodlands. Looks like nature because it is nature.
Unless you live in an HOA, theres no real value/use in maintaining your full lot. Just let it grow, or have landscapers come in a few times a year and keep things trimmed. Forget irrigation.
Absolutely do not let cleared land brush/forest over because you (or the next guy) will need to incur expensive environmental permits to clear it and your land value will reflect that.
Likewise never reduce your paved or roof covered square footage. Even if you don't want that parking space or patio or falling down barn the developer who might be your next buyer is factoring that in.
If you're in SF and weighing this decision, it's easy to get tilted in the buy direction because the rental stock is so horrific. Landlords have very little incentive to update properties or provide basic amenities that people take for granted in other major cities (good luck getting a washer/dryer).
This isn't an overly apples-to-apples comparison. It factors in costs like "updating your kitchen", making things more stylish, etc.
The author also seems to assume you'll be paying more to heat and cool your house because if you're renting you're in an apartment? Just down the road from him, four of the five homes I rented before buying in 2021 are larger than the home we bought.
"Less than 21% of my monthly payment is going towards paying off the loan" - well, yes, because it is front-loaded with interest. And as you get through the loan, 80%+ will be paying off the loan.
Maybe different loans are different, but generally your home insurance and property taxes are rolled into the mortgage (and often paid on your behalf by the servicer) - indeed, it seems like there's a double dipping of breaking down his mortgage payment and the component that is tax and then saying below "I currently pay $515 in taxes monthly".
There absolutely are additional costs to owning a home, to be very clear.
But there's definitely a contingent (and this post isn't the "worst" of them) that likes to paint home ownership as nothing more than opening your check or pulling out a credit card every month for "the next four digit expense".
Especially in Western Washington where the property market 2010-2020 was "a good one". (I put down 10% and at the contractual "year-and-one-day" on my loan for the soonest I could remove PMI I was able to because I'd hit 20% equity on value increase - only making my regular payment), something that he benefits from, too:
> I bought my current home in 2011 for $420k, and the Zillow currently estimates its value at $757k. I've put a lot of money into it catching up on maintenance, repairs, and improvements, but the appreciation will definitely exceed whatever I've put into it when I decide to sell it.
people might scream about corporates owning housing - but one thing that's a blessing is if corporates sink their money into apartment blocks | buildings instead of single family homes.
you can rent for multiple years at a favorable rate - then save some money into the stock market.
however in america - people have been fed the propaganda you need to live in a single family home.
Over short term windows it’s very possible for renting to make more sense. Over the long term it’s very difficult for renting to come out ahead. If you’re talking about the same town over say 20 years then the chances of renting coming out ahead is near zero.
In the US at least the tax system is also heavily setup to favor home ownership. Mortgage interest and real estate taxes (which are baked into rent) are tax deductible for the home owner and not for the renter. That’s another big difference that adds up over time.
I'm firmly in the renting camp and I'll only own a home if I can buy some land and build it, probably. From a US perspective, I see too many people buy a house because that's what they're "supposed" to do since that's the American Dream. They end up with projects every weekend, stressing about repairs, and dealing with random BS from the local government and Karens.
I also despise the culture around owning a home and the insane things that we do to prop it up. Zoning restrictions, absurd mortgage terms (what other country does 30-year fixed rates?), overbearing building codes all so we can live up to this arbitrary life goal of Owning A Home.
Buy a vacation home (seemed like a good idea at the time)
Sell everything and rent a house (move to an area better for my kids) <--- I am here
Buy one primary home and stay there forever <-- the plan next year
Renting a house is a great financial decision for my current market but the landlord is erratic (will he raise the rent? sell the house? move in?), I still have to deal with a HOA, and there are several big upgrades/changes I want to make and I can't: double the solar/battery, add some covered storage, put in wired cameras, put in a high quality RO water filter, devote most of the backyard to an orchard/garden, etc. And the rent will keep going up, whereas insurance/property tax will go up much slower because I plan to buy in cash.
If you have some spare cash flow, you can pay extra principal on your loan. Since early years are mostly interest, this can make a big difference in ultimately paying off the loan early if you plan to live there that long.
You experience more than 100% of all of these costs as a renter, while you have none of the up-front costs and less liability you also have no agency and no equity. It can be a trap though, as selling isn't free and if you didn't have enough equity built up you can end up losing money to move. Some housing ends up as rentals because of this, makes more sense to not sell and to rent it.
Renting is definitely the better option for certain people, if you intend to move often, or want to live in an apartment your overall costs are likely to be lower. If you want a single-family home and don't want to move often (or be moved out) Buying is worth it. Even setting aside the satisfaction of home ownership if you can mange to pay off your property you pretty much can't live cheaper at the same scale.
that said I've rented, I've owned, and I've been a landlord and I'd take home ownership in a heartbeat. It's not all rosy, and being responsible for maintenance is no joke but not being subject to the affairs or whimsy of someone else's finances along with the pride and sense of actual ownership is is wonderful.
My house is twice the size of my last apartment and my utility bill is half. apartments just generally don't have as good insulation or as efficient HVAC at least where I live.
The person also discounts the impact of horrible neighbors, stomping and barking at all hours of the day. That can happen in houses but they are not right next to you
If you're just looking at the numbers, it's worth doing the math. Obviously many things will be estimates.
Most people don't do apples to oranges comparisons, because a 2-bedroom, 1.5 bathroom you're living in is not comparable to a 3-bedroom, 2 bathroom, quarter acre house on a lot you're considering buying.
So it's obviously not just math, but also preference, or need.
Local house prices, tax rates, utility rates, services for maintenance and upgrade... they'll all vary greatly depending on the area. And if you're moving from an urban apartment to a suburban house, you're changing how much you'll drive, maybe even need an additional car. But maybe you turn in your rail pass, and decide to cook at home more, and eat out less.
If you think you can decide this based on a formula (or some folk wisdom), well you probably can, for yourself. But of course there's no one universal right answer that applies to most people, because there are too many variables and too many options.
Great article, love that you enumerated all the costs in buying a home. I don't like how renters romanticize home ownership and fail to understand how many costs are involved.
> You've probably heard someone say something to the effect of "renting is just throwing your money away". Don't believe it. It's a glib statement that simply isn't true.
No, the statement is completely true: 100% of your rent money goes to someone else, and you also don't get any asset to sell later on.
However, this statement doesn't exist in a vacuum. You need some place to live, and you have to compare the cost of renting to the cost of owning.
To give an example, the typical rent in Toronto is $1000~2000/month, and the typical home ownership cost (including principal, interest, taxes, and maintenance) is $2000~3000/mo. We can just pretend that both are around $2000/mo.
If owning is still $2000/mo but suddenly rent is $500/mo, then renting suddenly becomes a great deal - even though you are still literally "throwing money away". You can use that differential $1500/mo to invest in a savings account, stocks, etc.
And speaking of that, I realized that the biggest cost in owning a home isn't the mortgage (and you correctly pointed out that paying down the principal doesn't change your net worth). The biggest cost is the opportunity cost of the down payment, when you could have instead invested in the stock market at 7~10%/year.
Continuing with the Toronto example, if you bought a home for $500k with 20% down, then the counterfactual if you had continued renting is that the $100k chunk of money could've generated $7000~10000/year = $580~$830/mo, which is a substantial fraction of the $2000/mo rent.
Why don't we say this about other expenditures? Am I throwing my money away when I buy dinner and not a cow? Did I throw my money away by buying a carrot and not farmland? I don't think the statement is true or false, it's just meaningless.
You somehow missed the second part of that sentence: "No, the statement is completely true: 100% of your rent money goes to someone else, and you also don't get any asset to sell later on."
The oft-repeated statement that "renting is throwing your money" is an implicit contrast to owning a home, where the mortgage payment "builds equity" in your asset that can be sold later.
"Throwing money away" means you don't get to own something that can be sold for money later on. That's why we "throw money away" on gasoline, but not "throw money away" in a savings account.
The second part of my argument is that throwing money away isn't necessarily a bad thing, because the alternative (such as paying to own something) can end up being more expensive and being a worse deal financially.
No, I read that part of the sentence. I don't know why you'd assume I didn't. Should I claim you didn't even read my entire response?
I've never heard someone claim I am throwing away money when I buy something consumable except rent. It's a stupid statement that doesn't convey any useful information.
If you live in a house long enough, you will have to deal with things. There will at some point, be a new roof, a new furnace. New windows. Some of it will be optional, some will not. If you are renting, part of your rent is going to the landlord to cover these things. And you are dependent on them doing it. One way or another you are the one paying. If you own, at least you have the choice of doing it the way you like.
Probably the biggest factor of considering the rent/buy question is how long to do you expect to be there. We paid off our mortgage after 16 years, so now it's 'free', except for ongoing maintenance and taxes. And we're looking at some nontrivial reno in the future: the kitchen is quite beat, and someday we'll need to deal with the asbestos siding (one of four layers on the house!). But it least it's our choice.
Unless you think landlords are running a charity, some part of your mortgage is going to them as profit (over a large enough sample of renters anyways), and some percentage of your rent is covering 'bad tenants' (which you're not, right?).
Their entire improvement section is also something renters tend to not think about. It's a weird situation when renting that you aren't incentivized in any way to make improvements to where you live. You might not even be allowed to.
With home ownership though, things like a modern kitchen, a shed, new laundry machines not only better your life today but also (likely) have some value add. Though you also get the luxury of being able to ignore the value add if you just really want to paint that room neon pink for some reason.
> Unless you think landlords are running a charity, some part of your mortgage is going to them as profit (over a large enough sample of renters anyways), and some percentage of your rent is covering 'bad tenants' (which you're not, right?).
You can make the same argument about a bank not being a charity and making a profit from selling you a mortgage (both are true but are not helpful indicators about rent vs buying). Similarly the interest you pay is insuring the bank against bad debtors, which you presumably will not be.
> With home ownership though, things like a modern kitchen, a shed, new laundry machines not only better your life today but also (likely) have some value add.
You can improve your living situation in a number of ways when renting. If you want a new kitchen or bathroom, rent somewhere new with those things. Renting also affords you the freedom to leave when things go from good to bad (crime, noise, building ammenities, etc.).
Is the author accounting for the equity built up?
Cash has to go out whether it’s a mortgage or rent. With a mortgage you are building equity. This changes the true math when you sell (leaving aside your ability to now get a HELOC).
The article details costs and leaves two big ones out. First, opportunity cost: lot of folks rent instead of own on the basis of keeping assets in higher-performing market sectors. Second (and perhaps actually an expression of the first), anything that prevents a working professional from changing cities can exert downward pressure on future economic opportunity.
I'm old enough to have owned a number of homes in a number of jurisdictions, so I'd caution that these numbers will differ significantly depending on where you live. For example, insurance is hugely influenced by fire risk, so a rural or semi-rural home can easily cost 4-5x as much to insure (and some insurers will give you "please go away" quotes, so it's important to shop around).
Similarly, taxes will depend on the locality, loan costs depend on the lender and the loan amount, etc. HOA So your totals could be easily 30% or 300% of what's outlined in the article.
The one important point that the article makes is that your ongoing costs will also vary dramatically depending on how much work you're willing to do yourself, especially in high-regulation, high-labor-cost areas such as SFBA. A basic job, such as replacing a leaky flush valve, can be hundreds of dollars in plumber costs, or $19.95 if you go to Home Depot. Hiring a painting contractor can cost thousands. Etc, etc.
I've also seen several homeowners outright taken advantage of. My main example in the US are various "mold remediation" contractors, who can help you in some really bad situations, but they're just as happy to charge you $20,000 to do nothing of value based on vague fears.
It's true that there are hidden costs to owning but get this: Those costs exist regardless of who owns the house! When you rent, you are still paying those costs, but you don't have an asset when you're done. You actually have to pay more in taxes and insurance on a rental!
When you buy, you will pay a certain amount for 15-30 years, and then you only have to pay for the continuing maintenance. When you rent, you will pay a certain amount every month forever regardless of whether the property is paid off or needs any maintenance.
bell-cot | 2 hours ago
True. But even if you have the physical ability, skills, tools, and equipment handy - you can spend a lot of time on maintenance & repairs. Just ask anyone who's done yard work for a few years, or has repainted a house, or ...
kube-system | an hour ago
com2kid | an hour ago
I built a custom shelf for my closet. It'd have costed me an arm and a leg to have someone else do that, even with a tech worker's salary.
I also built a custom walk-in closet. It took me a day, saved me over 2k and I got a better quality closet out of it. (You find find built yourself a walk-in-closet kits that are easy to assemble, it really isn't that hard, just don't get the home depot level quality ones.)
kube-system | an hour ago
jandrese | an hour ago
kube-system | 42 minutes ago
For example, to mow your lawn, you have to find a time to do it every couple of weeks when the weather cooperates, be at home at that time, store and maintain the equipment, have a pair of "grass shoes", clean up afterwards, etc.
This might be worth the effort if you don't have much disposable income. But if you have money to blow, hiring someone to mow your lawn can give you more time to do something else you'd rather do.
jandrese | an hour ago
That said a layperson probably won't know the new code requirements in their jurisdiction and if you sell your house you'll have the inspector tut-tutting the work for one reason or another.
FireBeyond | an hour ago
"Surely it wouldn't be too hard to undo/redo piping etc." But yeah, different refrigerant, different code requirements for vents and exhausts and drains. 4 people working for 16 hours, I saw where the money went.
bell-cot | 16 minutes ago
How much time does it take to acquire & refresh the skills and code knowledge, and how many water heaters can you amortize that over during your life?
01100011 | 18 minutes ago
someuser54541 | an hour ago
janalsncm | an hour ago
However, not all HOAs are actually financially responsible. So they might raise monthly fees, issue “special assessments” (lump-sum charges that can be $10k+) or take on loans. And they decide when they will do that.
brokenlink | an hour ago
bgirard | an hour ago
My gut feeling is that repairs and maintenance cost more with condos than if you own a home and you're handy to fix minor stuff and know how to find good contractors for bigger jobs. I imagine condo jobs becomes more difficult and contractors charge more for those jobs. But I don't have data to back my hunch. Condo has extra issues in dealing with neighbor problems (issues with garbage, pets, unpaid fees, noise, etc...) and you have to maintain shared spaces (hallways, elevators, etc...) and you end up paying for that via your condo fees.
bpt3 | an hour ago
Condos are generally the worst of both worlds, because you have almost all the responsibilities of homeownership combined with nearly all of the restrictions of renting an apartment.
There's a reason they appreciate significantly less than other types of property.
sowbug | an hour ago
Arcuru | 24 minutes ago
Sure sometimes they do make bad decisions, but you're welcome to just show up to their board meeting and give them some advice.
RIMR | an hour ago
You may own your condo, but the condo board can also hit you with a 6-figure bill for building repairs and aggregate maintenance. Enough to force you to get a new loan, even when you might still be paying your mortgage.
And if the tenants take issue with these kinds of bills (they frequently do), they can tie things up while things get worse and more expensive to repair.
This was actively a problem for the tenants at the center of the Surfside condominium collapse, with maintenance needs directly related to the problems that resulted in the collapse.
tetromino_ | an hour ago
jrflo | 12 minutes ago
M4R5H4LL | an hour ago
kube-system | an hour ago
You can borrow from your property’s value by neglecting maintenance, and that is sometimes even harder to notice than dollars in a bank account.
This is one of the ways condo ownership can bite you.
mothballed | an hour ago
01100011 | 24 minutes ago
mholm | an hour ago
I redid/improved the bathroom to exactly what I wanted. I renovated the kitchen. I added paneling to the walls. I added a few outlets to rooms that needed more. I wouldn't do these things in an apartment, because rent could go up any year and exploit me for liking my home. Property value has gone up by 50% in the years since I bought.
elicash | an hour ago
We are extending the fence in our backyard.
However, getting rid of the parking means the project will likely detract from the value of the home. But since we don't have a car, let alone two, it makes sense for us to do the project anyway. Despite the warning of our realtor when we purchased the home.
I've noticed a lot of folks are afraid to personalize their homes because of concern about the value when they eventually sell.
throwaway894345 | an hour ago
Firstly, my home isn't principally an investment vehicle.
Secondly, I'm pretty sure I can find a buyer who can conceive of popping over to the grocery store around the corner a couple times a week rather than pretending like they're living off the grid and have to drive 100 miles to the nearest town to buy their monthly provisions for a family of 13. :)
globular-toast | 30 minutes ago
foobarian | 23 minutes ago
Our_Benefactors | 19 minutes ago
foobarian | 14 minutes ago
Then on top of that after COVID dealer gave me $5k tradein for an Ecoboost car with a leaking cylinder wall, check engine light, missing parts, etc. where KBB was less than that. I really don't get it.
throwaway894345 | an hour ago
shadowpho | 28 minutes ago
I’d argue rental is more predictable. Housing has a huge amount of upkeep — $10k ac, $5k water heater, $20k roof…
zeroonetwothree | 27 minutes ago
And while I agree that it’s nice to customize things to your preferences, this has a downside in that it’s easy to get carried away and overspend. Might as well get the nicer finishes when you are remodeling, right? After all you’re paying so much for labor anyway. And you can’t have just your kitchen nice, now you need to upgrade the flooring in the whole house. And soon your small $30k improvement is $150k
throw0101c | 22 minutes ago
"Rent is the most you'll pay for housing, but mortgage and property taxes is the least amount."
waffleiron | 22 minutes ago
Most landlords I've dealt with are an absolute pain to deal with when something breaks. It's often not that easy, maybe in high-cost / luxury rentals. Arguing over what is normal wear-and-tear, while knowing you cannot afford decent legal advice, and you also can't pay for the "unexpected repair" is just as bad.
> And you can’t have just your kitchen nice, now you need to upgrade the flooring
Yes you can. There is no need to have everything perfect...
Edit:
> You never have an unexpected $20k repair show up.
If this was even close to coming even with the added cost on rent, no one would be a landlord. It's obviously a lot less than rental overhead. So people could just set that aside (or get insurance).
tracerbulletx | 8 minutes ago
brailsafe | 18 minutes ago
As a renter in a place that protects renters from radical increases year over year, I'd argue the only compelling sense of stability would be trading the risk of being evicted for that of losing the house
> I redid/improved the bathroom to exactly what I wanted. I renovated the kitchen. I added panelling to the walls. I added a few outlets to rooms that needed more.
I think this is an interesting differentiation that would either be very compelling for a hobbyist or carpenter, or someone who works on cars, but it's also crazy to me if I frame homeownership this way. I don't think a condo would really provide the surface area for such customization *if* I were a person to be interested in doing it, nor would a townhouse or duplex. It seems that at least in my city, the premium to be able to do something as common as paint the exterior of your home, is like $2.5m CAD, or $1m more than a newish townhome, or $1.5m more than modest condo, or $10000/m more (just on the mortgage) than renting a sufficiently sized place.
That's partly because the kind of place I can rent is dramatically smaller than the minimum size of a place that has a modifiable exterior, and it's one of the most expensive cities. I guess it's sort of a framing that makes clear how dystopian the class divide is; I don't have any interest in painting my house, but if I did, I'll never be able to, and if I could (at the current rates), I'd have to be incredibly unimaginative to allocate that much to the house that could hypothetically be painted.
I guess people who value the concept of a home in that way more than anything else would simply move someone where they can buy one, but I value so many other things more than hacking away on the walls that it's an absolute no-brainer to continue renting where I want to live despite the ambient sense that I have no sense of permanence secured by land
crabbone | 17 minutes ago
This was my first time living in a house as opposed to an apartment. It's been three years of bitter regret, and I'm very eager to sell the damn thing and leave the nightmare behind. In the last three years, I had to re-paint the roof, replace the garden fence and a bunch of related stuff in the garden, replace the water boiler. I had to climb on the roof of the house to rake the leaves at least twice a year (not expensive, just scary). I had to repaint areas of the house because the previous owner did a crappy job painting them.
But, most importantly, it's a piece of junk. It's a typical front brick wall with the rest of the house made of wood covered in dry wall. Its foundation is going to skew and sink because... that's the general condition of everything in the Netherlands: the ground water is too close to the surface, so the foundation is too shallow. I can't hang anything heavy on the wall because the wall can't support it. Every wall is crooked and bent and so is the ceiling, so, for example, it's not possible to put a curtain railing on the ceiling...
Everything is made of perishable materials which will last five to ten years tops, and then everything needs to be torn down and redone. Looking at how my neighbors are spending their lives on the hamster wheel of infinite repairs... I want absolutely none of this. Some people enjoy sinking their time and finances into this black hole, but I'd rather just buy hard drugs for the same price all the way until I die. It's just an arduous and unrewarding toil.
akudha | 15 minutes ago
com2kid | an hour ago
Most people do not do this, and many homes thus slowly degrade in value. It is a fast track way to destroy potential generational wealth.
Home repair issues also tend to be bursty (rule of three...). You'll have a few years of nothing that'll lull you into a false sense of security, then suddenly three major issues will come up. So far this year I've had nearly 10K in random expenses pop up (!!) and based on the life expectancy of my HVAC system I expect I'll have some more major expenses next year.
If there is one near to you, join a tool library. It is a huge savings over buying specialized tools for one off jobs. Tool libraries are an amazing community resource.
Find a good reliable handy man, even if you know how to do things yourself. Hopefully one you can trust with your door code so if your neighbors report running water while you are away on a trip you have someone you can call who you know will take care of it.
bluGill | an hour ago
tetha | an hour ago
A fairly unintuitive resolution to this is to setup a "fun and nonsense" budget and force yourself to spend it every half year, or to make a conscious plan on how to spend it over the year. If you plan the budget right, it won't hurt you, but it will force you to make your life better.
Maintenance, especially of owned property, seems similar to me. You should be saving up for the real "oh shit" situations, and you should accumulate a budget to just do things continuously. 6 months of routine maintenance budget saved up, what do we spend it on actively, before it becomes a mess?
hypeatei | an hour ago
I agree with the first part, people absolutely do shoddy work or none at all but the value doesn't seem to go down. My mother bought a house had it inspected beforehand but massive issues with the foundation and the roof showed up the following spring when there was heavy rain. Sure, all that can be fought with attorneys and insurance (both cost time and money) but it doesn't feel very good psychologically or physically to be dealing with so much paperwork and house repairs.
Sorry to rant, I think your comment is spot on... owning a house is expensive.
cosmic_cheese | 58 minutes ago
This way one’s housing costs feel like a bargain and savings (including repair reserves) quickly rack up unless the individual in question has serious problems holding onto money.
sakopov | 42 minutes ago
01100011 | 29 minutes ago
Except in my experience the lack of upkeep doesn't actually affect the value all that much. In many places the vast majority of the price is the land and people seem less interested in valuing based on the condition of the structure. It may affect time to sell, but that seems about it. Sure some credits might be offered during escrow for some repairs, but again often the money is insufficient or the seller simply says no.
throw0101c | 16 minutes ago
Rob Carrick, a now (semi-)retired personanl finance writer in Canada, observed that owning a home tends to not be a forced saving plan but rather a forced spending plan:
* https://www.instagram.com/reel/DWG223bPjvf/
* https://thewealthybarber.com/video/owning-a-home-is-so-expen...
Full interview on The Wealthy Barber podcast:
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8OwBbm5OXc
malfist | an hour ago
The person counts the 12 month escrow prepayment during closing as "cost to get a loan" It's not. It's the cost of 12 months of taxes and insurance on your property.
Also notable is the "1 year insurance premium" either they're double counting the escrow, or this 1 year insurance premium is mortgage insurance where the bank makes you take out insurance to protect them. This can be prepaid, split paid, paid monthly, or you could put down 20%.
The lender makes you purchase title insurance for them, but this person also purchased title insurance for themselves. This is mostly just pure profit for the title company. The cost for the insurance is for the company to do the research, if they found an issue, they wouldn't insure the bank. Buying it for yourself is mostly just lighting money on fire.
A lot of those closing costs are shoppable, you can find better lenders. Before closing, you're given a truth in lending disclosure with all this carefully spelled out. If you don't do even basic due diligence, I question if you have the financial literacy to own a home.
I'll also note, they didn't mention in their closing costs paying for a home inspection (beyond termites). This is likely why they had to pay for real repairs on the house.
One of their "repairs" is new water pipes. There's no reason listed for this, but this is often pushed by door to door salesmen telling you need to do it to protect your property/health and is mostly, like all door to door sales, a scam.
That note about counting the cost of heating and cooling is similarly nonsense. They claim "apartments are almost always smaller than houses" which isn't true, and count electricity rate increases as cost of ownership, rentals have to pay that too. They also assert, with clearly no evidence that heating and cooling is half their electric bill. There's easy ways to figure this out, an emporia can do it easily.
The whole premise is flawed. They note that in the beginning only 20% of their payment goes to principle and A) you can control that (bigger downpayment so no PMI, less interest), bigger more frequent payments or a shorter loan, and B) exactly 0% of your rent payment goes to your principle.
This might better be an examination of "can I afford a mortgage with the same rent payment as I make today" and the answer, not surprisingly, is no, if your rent payments are a the top end of what you can afford.
horsawlarway | an hour ago
> I bought this house new, and didn't live there very long
End of story.
malfist | an hour ago
>I bought my home in Auburn, WA for $321k, and sold it a few years later for $333k. After all the costs to buy and sell it, I probably lost more money on it than I would have spent renting an apartment.
Home ownership isn't a net positive from day one. Otherwise, everyone would always do it. Home ownership is net positive in the long run. It's a long term position. You don't day trade houses.
FireBeyond | an hour ago
too_pricey | an hour ago
More importantly, this neglects that buying a home is locking in the price for the long term for the majority of your housing cost. Buying usually is similar all in the first year, but after 5 years your mortage payment is the same while rent has probably gone up significantly.
cosmic_cheese | an hour ago
The main one for me is the inherent precariousness that comes with renting. You don’t know how much longer you’re going to be able to stay in your apartment, whether that be due to rent hikes or the landlord deciding that they want to give the apartment to their nephew or any number of other things. The constant low level stress of knowing that you might need to go through the hell of apartment hunting and moving annually is awful.
It’s been much nicer to have a mortgage with more or less locked in monthly payment, even with the maintenance costs that come with the territory. It’s more predictable and frees up mental bandwidth for other things.
elicash | an hour ago
sowbug | an hour ago
zeroonetwothree | 26 minutes ago
arwhatever | 18 minutes ago
kylehotchkiss | an hour ago
wl | an hour ago
leflambeur | an hour ago
Another drawback, you're likely to have less negotiating power with a corporate-owned rental.
SoftTalker | an hour ago
You lease remains in force even with a change in ownership. So in most cases there will be no immediate impact to tenants.
whywhywhywhy | an hour ago
cosmic_cheese | an hour ago
vips7L | an hour ago
fulafel | an hour ago
vips7L | an hour ago
zeroonetwothree | 24 minutes ago
carabiner | an hour ago
If that premium is too high though, you can be worse off than accepting the risk of variable costs.
FireBeyond | an hour ago
Absolutely. I had three landlords in a row promise all manner of things. "We're never coming back, moving to the country" (followed by "my wife hates it, we're moving back"). "We're looking to do other investments, we'd happily sign a 5 year lease with you if we could" (WA law limits residential lease lengths. Just as well for them because they decided "the property market is so hot it'd be irresponsible of us not to sell").
jandrewrogers | an hour ago
The cost of owning absolutely does increase over time. The mortgage payment is just one part of the fully burdened cost. Furthermore, there is a real risk of an unexpected $20k expense that you have to pay for. Owning is less predictable than renting because the liability and risk surface area is much larger.
specproc | an hour ago
I imagine this is also likely passed through in the cost of rent in other places.
That said, it's totally possible to have a legal and fiscal framework that makes renting affordable and safe.
The government, particularly in Western countries with insane pressure on the rental market, needs to act as a homebuilder and landlord of the last resort. It keeps supply up, prices and risk down.
We've had a couple of generations locked into the housing market as an investment, and it's causing demand crunches which have artificially inflated prices and are choking and dividing our societies.
I'd happily spend my life in a rental if it was affordable and safe, and part of a considerably more fair society.
quantified | an hour ago
em-bee | 48 minutes ago
vineyardmike | 10 minutes ago
In SF, you can’t evict tenants because you sell the house, and you can’t evict tenants with kids during the school year (without a just cause).
UncleOxidant | an hour ago
sakopov | 46 minutes ago
cosmic_cheese | 43 minutes ago
sakopov | 33 minutes ago
wat10000 | 15 minutes ago
zeroonetwothree | 25 minutes ago
cosmic_cheese | 17 minutes ago
bee_rider | 25 minutes ago
It just seems nice to be able to customize the structure without being tied to a particular location.
relium | an hour ago
There's also a potential HOA fee, even in many neighborhoods with freestanding homes.
But there are tax benefits of home ownership too. The interest deduction used to very significant, although less now since they raised the standard deduction. There's also a $250K/500K non-taxable capital gains benefit when you sell a house for more than you paid.
francisofascii | an hour ago
happytoexplain | an hour ago
zeroonetwothree | 21 minutes ago
leugim | an hour ago
nayuki | 23 minutes ago
Also, condominium does not automatically imply apartment, because there are condo townhouses and condo detached houses.
A condominium is a legal structure that prescribes which parts are owned jointly and which parts are owned individually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condominium
bpt3 | an hour ago
RIMR | an hour ago
If you take literally anything away from this article, this opening line is it. People who say this bought their house decades ago and have no clue what the present situation is.
whywhywhywhy | an hour ago
RIMR | an hour ago
I can move on a whim, and the worst-case costs will be a modest lease termination fee and literal moving costs.
jandrese | an hour ago
some_random | an hour ago
bigstrat2003 | an hour ago
whateveracct | 16 minutes ago
I pay as much as I did for rent in 2019 for my house now (and until 2050). And my house is over 3x larger.
kylehotchkiss | an hour ago
FrustratedMonky | an hour ago
Article did sum all the inputs/outputs, and came out at loss. I'm just wondering if there is some other trends over 10 or 20 years that make the house better.
carabiner | an hour ago
Based on the nytimes version from 20 years ago but updated since then.
Actual rent vs. buy outcomes vary by location, but the general rule is that in most desirable urban areas, it's financially better to rent.
m_w_ | an hour ago
carabiner | an hour ago
This isn't to say that there are not emotional aspects to owning, but that is a separate discussion.
some_random | an hour ago
ramesh31 | an hour ago
Maybe home ownership is becoming a luxury, but humans don't exist in financial spreadsheets. The intagibles of SFH ownership are worth literally everything to me after a lifetime of renting.
It's also absolutely a class differentiator in the US. If you're behind on your rent and getting evicted, that's seen as a personal moral failure. If you're behind on your mortgage and getting foreclosed, it's considered a tragedy, and there are many options for support like forebearance. Just look at what happened during COVID; red state renters were getting knocked on by the sheriff within 90 days, while it can take years for someone to lose their house.
mothballed | an hour ago
danesparza | an hour ago
Renting has no similar protections. Your choices are, "Pay the (increased) rent" or "Move"
01100011 | 22 minutes ago
horsawlarway | an hour ago
End of story. That's the entire conversation right there.
Note how much money he made on the house he lived in for a decent amount of time... (~330k, minus minor investments on repairs)
Renting is better than buying if you're not going to live in the house for any real duration (real meaning 5+ years).
Otherwise... at least in the US... the financials around 30 year mortgages and a target inflation rate mean buying is going to work in your favor.
Will this blow up at some point? Meh, maybe? But for now, owning is FAR better assuming you actually hold onto the property. The longer you hold, the better it gets.
whalesalad | an hour ago
Everything is so fucking expensive.
bix6 | an hour ago
Glyptodon | an hour ago
However many of us knowingly exceed that point. For example we pay ~$500/mo over that point. Though there is no really comparable rental, we definitely could have chosen a more cookie cutter rental to be about +$6000 / year.
Havoc | an hour ago
Landlords do whatever the hell they like with zero consequences. Thats not a game I’d like to play with a 40 year horizon of unknowns.
With a mortgage the risk is interest rates. And on that I’m confident I can carry far more exposure than my peers. So if that blows up in my face then the entire country’s financial system is cooked anyway
archagon | an hour ago
0x59 | an hour ago
jeremy151 | an hour ago
I misjudged the scale. Going from .5 acre to 10 I feel like the amount of time I spent on home and property maintenance before could all be allocated to just one bucket titled "nature." Mowing, whether it's lawn, meadows, trails, tree line, all on different schedules. Trees die, they fall, hang up. The volume of brush, invasive species, pulling it, burning it. When we bought it, I made a mental note: "we'll have to replace the driveway." That driveway is asphalt, and 1000 feet long. The quotes for that alone are in price territory of a luxury vehicle. Irrigation, 12 zones, repairing, winterizing. Septic is another ticking clock. When that goes, you're in for 5 digits. Don't have a suitable secondary location? Engineered system, multiply everything by like 3.
So remove that time from my schedule, that's what I have left for home improvement work.
We're deep into it and really enjoy aspects of it. But if I could talk to my pre-purchase self, I would advise that the scale difference is huge, and consider the amount of time that goes into baseline maintenance when deciding how much of a "fixer upper" to take on, especially when acreage is involved.
bluGill | an hour ago
But for the length they last it is less than my city sewer bill. Though if my septic fails I'll connect to the city system was the quote I got to do that was about what a new septic costs.
stickfigure | an hour ago
If you expect the whole place to be manicured like a city lot, yeah, that's a huge amount of work.
We maintain the areas around our house. The rest is just oak woodlands. Looks like nature because it is nature.
turtlebits | 31 minutes ago
cucumber3732842 | 21 minutes ago
Likewise never reduce your paved or roof covered square footage. Even if you don't want that parking space or patio or falling down barn the developer who might be your next buyer is factoring that in.
zackangelo | an hour ago
RohoSwagger | an hour ago
FireBeyond | an hour ago
The author also seems to assume you'll be paying more to heat and cool your house because if you're renting you're in an apartment? Just down the road from him, four of the five homes I rented before buying in 2021 are larger than the home we bought.
"Less than 21% of my monthly payment is going towards paying off the loan" - well, yes, because it is front-loaded with interest. And as you get through the loan, 80%+ will be paying off the loan.
Maybe different loans are different, but generally your home insurance and property taxes are rolled into the mortgage (and often paid on your behalf by the servicer) - indeed, it seems like there's a double dipping of breaking down his mortgage payment and the component that is tax and then saying below "I currently pay $515 in taxes monthly".
There absolutely are additional costs to owning a home, to be very clear.
But there's definitely a contingent (and this post isn't the "worst" of them) that likes to paint home ownership as nothing more than opening your check or pulling out a credit card every month for "the next four digit expense".
Especially in Western Washington where the property market 2010-2020 was "a good one". (I put down 10% and at the contractual "year-and-one-day" on my loan for the soonest I could remove PMI I was able to because I'd hit 20% equity on value increase - only making my regular payment), something that he benefits from, too:
> I bought my current home in 2011 for $420k, and the Zillow currently estimates its value at $757k. I've put a lot of money into it catching up on maintenance, repairs, and improvements, but the appreciation will definitely exceed whatever I've put into it when I decide to sell it.
dzonga | an hour ago
you can rent for multiple years at a favorable rate - then save some money into the stock market.
however in america - people have been fed the propaganda you need to live in a single family home.
cmiles8 | an hour ago
In the US at least the tax system is also heavily setup to favor home ownership. Mortgage interest and real estate taxes (which are baked into rent) are tax deductible for the home owner and not for the renter. That’s another big difference that adds up over time.
bluGill | an hour ago
Renting and buying tends to work out the same in the long run if renters invest the difference on the early years - but which they rarely do
seemaze | an hour ago
How can anyone (financially) justify the cost of owning your own compute?
How can anyone (ideologically) justify the cost of not owning your own means of compute?
hypeatei | an hour ago
I also despise the culture around owning a home and the insane things that we do to prop it up. Zoning restrictions, absurd mortgage terms (what other country does 30-year fixed rates?), overbearing building codes all so we can live up to this arbitrary life goal of Owning A Home.
qwerpy | an hour ago
Rent (because I'm a college student or in my 20s)
Buy (because American Dream and FOMO)
Buy a few rental properties (diversify income)
Buy a vacation home (seemed like a good idea at the time)
Sell everything and rent a house (move to an area better for my kids) <--- I am here
Buy one primary home and stay there forever <-- the plan next year
Renting a house is a great financial decision for my current market but the landlord is erratic (will he raise the rent? sell the house? move in?), I still have to deal with a HOA, and there are several big upgrades/changes I want to make and I can't: double the solar/battery, add some covered storage, put in wired cameras, put in a high quality RO water filter, devote most of the backyard to an orchard/garden, etc. And the rent will keep going up, whereas insurance/property tax will go up much slower because I plan to buy in cash.
SoftTalker | an hour ago
ticulatedspline | an hour ago
Renting is definitely the better option for certain people, if you intend to move often, or want to live in an apartment your overall costs are likely to be lower. If you want a single-family home and don't want to move often (or be moved out) Buying is worth it. Even setting aside the satisfaction of home ownership if you can mange to pay off your property you pretty much can't live cheaper at the same scale.
that said I've rented, I've owned, and I've been a landlord and I'd take home ownership in a heartbeat. It's not all rosy, and being responsible for maintenance is no joke but not being subject to the affairs or whimsy of someone else's finances along with the pride and sense of actual ownership is is wonderful.
readthenotes1 | an hour ago
The person also discounts the impact of horrible neighbors, stomping and barking at all hours of the day. That can happen in houses but they are not right next to you
neogodless | 42 minutes ago
If you're just looking at the numbers, it's worth doing the math. Obviously many things will be estimates.
Most people don't do apples to oranges comparisons, because a 2-bedroom, 1.5 bathroom you're living in is not comparable to a 3-bedroom, 2 bathroom, quarter acre house on a lot you're considering buying.
So it's obviously not just math, but also preference, or need.
Local house prices, tax rates, utility rates, services for maintenance and upgrade... they'll all vary greatly depending on the area. And if you're moving from an urban apartment to a suburban house, you're changing how much you'll drive, maybe even need an additional car. But maybe you turn in your rail pass, and decide to cook at home more, and eat out less.
If you think you can decide this based on a formula (or some folk wisdom), well you probably can, for yourself. But of course there's no one universal right answer that applies to most people, because there are too many variables and too many options.
nayuki | 36 minutes ago
> You've probably heard someone say something to the effect of "renting is just throwing your money away". Don't believe it. It's a glib statement that simply isn't true.
No, the statement is completely true: 100% of your rent money goes to someone else, and you also don't get any asset to sell later on.
However, this statement doesn't exist in a vacuum. You need some place to live, and you have to compare the cost of renting to the cost of owning.
To give an example, the typical rent in Toronto is $1000~2000/month, and the typical home ownership cost (including principal, interest, taxes, and maintenance) is $2000~3000/mo. We can just pretend that both are around $2000/mo.
If owning is still $2000/mo but suddenly rent is $500/mo, then renting suddenly becomes a great deal - even though you are still literally "throwing money away". You can use that differential $1500/mo to invest in a savings account, stocks, etc.
And speaking of that, I realized that the biggest cost in owning a home isn't the mortgage (and you correctly pointed out that paying down the principal doesn't change your net worth). The biggest cost is the opportunity cost of the down payment, when you could have instead invested in the stock market at 7~10%/year.
Continuing with the Toronto example, if you bought a home for $500k with 20% down, then the counterfactual if you had continued renting is that the $100k chunk of money could've generated $7000~10000/year = $580~$830/mo, which is a substantial fraction of the $2000/mo rent.
Shoutout to this article again: "You Are Naturally Short Housing" https://thezikomoletter.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/you-are-nat...
01100011 | 32 minutes ago
Why don't we say this about other expenditures? Am I throwing my money away when I buy dinner and not a cow? Did I throw my money away by buying a carrot and not farmland? I don't think the statement is true or false, it's just meaningless.
nayuki | 30 minutes ago
The oft-repeated statement that "renting is throwing your money" is an implicit contrast to owning a home, where the mortgage payment "builds equity" in your asset that can be sold later.
"Throwing money away" means you don't get to own something that can be sold for money later on. That's why we "throw money away" on gasoline, but not "throw money away" in a savings account.
The second part of my argument is that throwing money away isn't necessarily a bad thing, because the alternative (such as paying to own something) can end up being more expensive and being a worse deal financially.
01100011 | 26 minutes ago
I've never heard someone claim I am throwing away money when I buy something consumable except rent. It's a stupid statement that doesn't convey any useful information.
niam | 16 minutes ago
turtlebits | 26 minutes ago
Always negotiate repairs into the offer price.
zeroonetwothree | 23 minutes ago
Finnucane | 10 minutes ago
Probably the biggest factor of considering the rent/buy question is how long to do you expect to be there. We paid off our mortgage after 16 years, so now it's 'free', except for ongoing maintenance and taxes. And we're looking at some nontrivial reno in the future: the kitchen is quite beat, and someday we'll need to deal with the asbestos siding (one of four layers on the house!). But it least it's our choice.
ApolloFortyNine | 24 minutes ago
Unless you think landlords are running a charity, some part of your mortgage is going to them as profit (over a large enough sample of renters anyways), and some percentage of your rent is covering 'bad tenants' (which you're not, right?).
Their entire improvement section is also something renters tend to not think about. It's a weird situation when renting that you aren't incentivized in any way to make improvements to where you live. You might not even be allowed to.
With home ownership though, things like a modern kitchen, a shed, new laundry machines not only better your life today but also (likely) have some value add. Though you also get the luxury of being able to ignore the value add if you just really want to paint that room neon pink for some reason.
Fernicia | 11 minutes ago
You can make the same argument about a bank not being a charity and making a profit from selling you a mortgage (both are true but are not helpful indicators about rent vs buying). Similarly the interest you pay is insuring the bank against bad debtors, which you presumably will not be.
> With home ownership though, things like a modern kitchen, a shed, new laundry machines not only better your life today but also (likely) have some value add.
You can improve your living situation in a number of ways when renting. If you want a new kitchen or bathroom, rent somewhere new with those things. Renting also affords you the freedom to leave when things go from good to bad (crime, noise, building ammenities, etc.).
sanp | 22 minutes ago
arthurofbabylon | 15 minutes ago
lacewing | 12 minutes ago
Similarly, taxes will depend on the locality, loan costs depend on the lender and the loan amount, etc. HOA So your totals could be easily 30% or 300% of what's outlined in the article.
The one important point that the article makes is that your ongoing costs will also vary dramatically depending on how much work you're willing to do yourself, especially in high-regulation, high-labor-cost areas such as SFBA. A basic job, such as replacing a leaky flush valve, can be hundreds of dollars in plumber costs, or $19.95 if you go to Home Depot. Hiring a painting contractor can cost thousands. Etc, etc.
I've also seen several homeowners outright taken advantage of. My main example in the US are various "mold remediation" contractors, who can help you in some really bad situations, but they're just as happy to charge you $20,000 to do nothing of value based on vague fears.
thesuitonym | 10 minutes ago
When you buy, you will pay a certain amount for 15-30 years, and then you only have to pay for the continuing maintenance. When you rent, you will pay a certain amount every month forever regardless of whether the property is paid off or needs any maintenance.
pickleglitch | 9 minutes ago