Nice! I think you can approximate timing somewhat, by making your web server create the "jpeg" on the fly and send it to the client in timed chunks. The source could even be a webcam, so the "jpeg" would go on forever.
You can do this with the gif too, I have once created a toy cgi that combined a gif sending one frame at a time with an image map allowing you to Remote Desktop with no JavaScript and click around. JPEG may have been a better choice, maybe I’ll revisit this.
Excellent hack! Should definitely be possible to make an animated gif to jpeg converter. I guess the animation could be slowed a little by repeating frames.
Weekend HN is definitely where the more interesting and offbeat content lives, and I often find myself enjoying it significantly more as a result.
During the week, well, it would be unfair to call it LinkedInified, but it can often feel like a somewhat higher tier of that sort of strata. Plenty of good stuff in there still, but much more “serious business”.
The format supports progressive decoding but IIRC none of the current browser implementations support it. The first Chrome and Firefox implementations did, and I think it's on their roadmap for the new Rust implementation. No idea about WebKit/Safari.
Edit: the format also supports region-of-interest decoding and I suspect you can make some cool maps or fractal images with both features. But I think they're not quite prioritizing implementing that right now.
> The first Chrome and Firefox implementations did
I was about to say: I'm sure I've seen it work a t some point? I imagine it's a valuable thing to add for the web though. It would be really cool if you could use the same image source for thumbnail and full image, and the browser both just figures out how much to download based on pixel size and can resume previously partially downloaded images.
And yeah, the tiling isn't implemented anywhere yet, jxl doesn't really get enough funding for that. But it'll be really cool once it does since it also makes it really useful for giant images of geographic data. I don't know if it combines with streaming downloads as well, but it would be crazy cool if we effectively got OpenSeaDragon[0] support inside an image format
Adjacent advice:
I've recently played with opengl and jpeg turbo and I wanted to display images fast. I don't remember exact numbers, but enabling progressive for a jpeg was a significant slowdown for decoding.
So if anyone like me is stuck with the old school advice that progressive is an nice to have, it's likely not. I personally don't remember any visual progressive image buildup in like decades, so it's not doing anything valuable at all.
Progressive decoding isn't expected to speed up decoding, it's expected to speed up displaying large image files, especially for downloads via slow mobile connections.
I've started using computers in the 90s, I've seen this every day back then.
Still the question is, does it help? Trying to access an average web app will probably take minutes before the browser may even see an image. If you do everything possible to render reasonably fast on very slow speeds, then progressive is nice. On a fast connection I don't think the average user will notice the difference.
Where it helps is in finding out if it's even the image you wanted. You get a sense of it from the fast first pass, and then can hit back if it's not the thing you thought it was.
I deliberately was talking about decode speed. The question is if you serve even via moderately fast infra, does it display faster? In my case on a (indeed fast) local system absolutely not. Mere size can be a decode problem of course. But it's extremely hard to tell that a single digit percent size difference is an advantage for serving.
But if better compression for storage or you can verify progressive serves faster then it is of course a benefit.
I guess the point I am making is that most people think: I heard it's somehow better so lets use it.
>I personally don't remember any visual progressive image buildup in like decades, so it's not doing anything valuable at all.
Maybe you just don't notice? It can be pretty invisible sometimes. I sometimes notice that image soon after page load an image is slightly blurry, and then another pass "sharpens" it. Yeah it's not like in the "old times" when the first progressive level was almost unreadable, but there's still value in sending a lower resolution version of image in 30% of the total file-size, basically for free
I haven't been able to see it even setting Chrome developer tools to crazy slow network speeds. Maybe chrome developer tools simulation isn't enough to see it?
The observations you are reporting are from images you created yourself and you know are in fact progressive jpegs? (not "regressive", although that's funny). There are of course other techniques to start with a lower resolution image that do "work" (in the sense of actually displaying a lower resolution image first at least).
I wonder if and how you can use this for steganography, hiding data in plain sight. I bet most automated image analysis programs would only consider the final image. I sure some highschooler can use this to bypass their schools contentfilter
You could probably implement a server that is purposefully slow enough so that the human frame shows up for however long you want. Just need to send the keepalive bytes one-by one.
> so playback is entirely dependent on network delay
Ultimately true, but I set up my server to send each "frame" separately, with a fixed delay between each. Each frame is small so unless your network is unusually slow, the timing is set by my server.
I've been here screaming "Motion JPEG EXISTS and is well supported in browsers" the entire time those gif hacks were popular. I've built a bunch of cool stuff with it.
I did this once, 20 years ago, with an animated GIF to add a live streaming air quality layer to a map application at work. The image itself was rendered using Java2D. I had a version I was working on that used JOGL to make gradient blobs instead of point clouds, but I couldn't get the server admin to install the OpenGL driver to get it to work.
If you have control over the HTTP server, a different technique is to set "refresh" in the response header[1], which makes the client fetch new animation frames periodically. This is the technique used in a 2013 IOCCC entry to show a continuously updated clock that's rendered as PNG[2].
> “Besides unconventional rickrolls and other trolling, this has no practical applications: there's no way to add timing information, so playback is entirely dependent on network delay.”
A progress bar for something that’s loading in parallel over the same network, to give the user an idea of how much the delay is?
If i remember correctly, some other places of the internet (4chan) completely this sort of behavior because people use it to hide images of ...unsavory topics
Wow, Firefox never fully loads the page, while WebKit fails to load it altogether, instead it displays "Operation was cancelled" in system font after a short freeze. I didn't manage to see the images change in any way as the post would suggest though, which left me confused.
Now you just have to mod your webserver to send the image chunk by chunk (with waits in-between). That way network latency does not matter. Also it probably reduces artefacts as bytes from one frame most likely are received in one network packet.
I love the first JPEG where the final image is... a different picture of the cat. "The first images you see are just approximations to the final, exact version." Audience's heads nod in understanding
Works fine for me in desktop Firefox. But on mobile iOS the “whole video within a jpeg” is 3 frames, all of which are nearly entirely solid color brown->orange->red with a vague cat silhouette. The color changes each frame, so you can tell it’s “working” but it’s certainly not what I’d call a video.
I was surprised when I pulled it up on my desktop and it did actually play like a video. Wonder if it’s causing some weird iOS image decoding glitch/edge case.
cousin_it | 16 hours ago
londons_explore | 15 hours ago
That's basically the server telling the client 'That data I just sent you, well now replace it with this new thing'.
No JavaScript needed, and can work with plain http and jpeg
SahAssar | 14 hours ago
iwontberude | 13 hours ago
schobi | 16 hours ago
But this is clever - just smash them together. Low frequency of one image concatenated with high frequency from another. This works surprisingly well!
xnx | 16 hours ago
londons_explore | 15 hours ago
Easy enough to add a delay() each frame if your server is python/nodejs/PHP/whatever
robbak | 15 hours ago
alterom | 14 hours ago
wegwerf17377382 | 13 hours ago
bartread | 11 hours ago
During the week, well, it would be unfair to call it LinkedInified, but it can often feel like a somewhat higher tier of that sort of strata. Plenty of good stuff in there still, but much more “serious business”.
qurren | 4 hours ago
"Hmm how can we use this for fingerprinting"
ilvez | 15 hours ago
solodynamo | 15 hours ago
LoganDark | 14 hours ago
aetherspawn | 13 hours ago
Pijuspaul321 | 14 hours ago
korbatz | 14 hours ago
est | 14 hours ago
You can use Service Worker to emulate a slow connection :)
vanderZwan | 14 hours ago
cyberrock | 14 hours ago
Edit: the format also supports region-of-interest decoding and I suspect you can make some cool maps or fractal images with both features. But I think they're not quite prioritizing implementing that right now.
vanderZwan | 12 hours ago
I was about to say: I'm sure I've seen it work a t some point? I imagine it's a valuable thing to add for the web though. It would be really cool if you could use the same image source for thumbnail and full image, and the browser both just figures out how much to download based on pixel size and can resume previously partially downloaded images.
And yeah, the tiling isn't implemented anywhere yet, jxl doesn't really get enough funding for that. But it'll be really cool once it does since it also makes it really useful for giant images of geographic data. I don't know if it combines with streaming downloads as well, but it would be crazy cool if we effectively got OpenSeaDragon[0] support inside an image format
[0] https://openseadragon.github.io/
Grimblewald | 14 hours ago
Yokohiii | 13 hours ago
cubefox | 13 hours ago
Example: https://youtube.com/watch?v=UphN1_7nP8U
Yokohiii | 12 hours ago
Still the question is, does it help? Trying to access an average web app will probably take minutes before the browser may even see an image. If you do everything possible to render reasonably fast on very slow speeds, then progressive is nice. On a fast connection I don't think the average user will notice the difference.
phyzome | 8 hours ago
Self-Perfection | 13 hours ago
And it is possible to losslessly transcode JPEG to progressive.
Lossless transcoding to JPEG XL gives even more space savings though.
chronogram | 13 hours ago
Yokohiii | 12 hours ago
But if better compression for storage or you can verify progressive serves faster then it is of course a benefit.
I guess the point I am making is that most people think: I heard it's somehow better so lets use it.
Dylan16807 | 3 hours ago
But a lot of people do have slow connections sometimes.
msm_ | 11 hours ago
Maybe you just don't notice? It can be pretty invisible sometimes. I sometimes notice that image soon after page load an image is slightly blurry, and then another pass "sharpens" it. Yeah it's not like in the "old times" when the first progressive level was almost unreadable, but there's still value in sending a lower resolution version of image in 30% of the total file-size, basically for free
jrochkind1 | 8 hours ago
The observations you are reporting are from images you created yourself and you know are in fact progressive jpegs? (not "regressive", although that's funny). There are of course other techniques to start with a lower resolution image that do "work" (in the sense of actually displaying a lower resolution image first at least).
tda | 13 hours ago
aetherspawn | 13 hours ago
This is how we defeat skynet: by sending each other pictures of cats.
yonatan8070 | 11 hours ago
mike_hock | 13 hours ago
Retr0id | 13 hours ago
> so playback is entirely dependent on network delay
Ultimately true, but I set up my server to send each "frame" separately, with a fixed delay between each. Each frame is small so unless your network is unusually slow, the timing is set by my server.
jbochi | 13 hours ago
Dwedit | 10 hours ago
donatj | 10 hours ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_JPEG
I've been here screaming "Motion JPEG EXISTS and is well supported in browsers" the entire time those gif hacks were popular. I've built a bunch of cool stuff with it.
https://github.com/donatj/mjpeg-php/blob/master/mjpeg.php
https://github.com/donatj/imgboard/blob/master/main.go
The PHP example here is an illustration of how easy it is to pull off, and the Go example is part of a JavaScript-free multiuser drawing board.
Retr0id | 7 hours ago
qingcharles | 7 hours ago
moron4hire | 9 hours ago
omoikane | 6 hours ago
[1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Reference/...
[2] https://www.ioccc.org/2013/mills/index.html
The "Refresh" header is encoded backwards on this line:
https://github.com/ioccc-src/winner/blob/619f554bbdb19e5003a...
pavlov | 13 hours ago
A progress bar for something that’s loading in parallel over the same network, to give the user an idea of how much the delay is?
NewsaHackO | 10 hours ago
Gander5739 | 7 hours ago
SonOfLilit | 5 hours ago
Gander5739 | 4 hours ago
SonOfLilit | an hour ago
I mean that the "remove a word" 'symbol' is a 'word' that represents the verb he was trying to invoke, by sounding like it.
Birds chirp, bees buzz, moderators, toilets flush.
Gander5739 | 51 minutes ago
tosti | 47 minutes ago
remix2000 | 12 hours ago
inigyou | 12 hours ago
Obviously the demonstrations that rely on server-side timing don't work through archive.org.
fractorial | 12 hours ago
fitsumbelay | 11 hours ago
Jabdoa2 | 11 hours ago
akoboldfrying | 11 hours ago
ingen0s | 7 hours ago
smath | 7 hours ago
This also reminded me of MRI where low frequency is acquired first in a space called k-space
einpoklum | 6 hours ago
snailmailman | 4 hours ago
Works fine for me in desktop Firefox. But on mobile iOS the “whole video within a jpeg” is 3 frames, all of which are nearly entirely solid color brown->orange->red with a vague cat silhouette. The color changes each frame, so you can tell it’s “working” but it’s certainly not what I’d call a video.
I was surprised when I pulled it up on my desktop and it did actually play like a video. Wonder if it’s causing some weird iOS image decoding glitch/edge case.
tensegrist | 4 hours ago
diimdeep | 4 hours ago