Andy Yen, the CEO of Proton, had a message for an employee in the company’s security Slack channel who urged the company to at least take a few days to pentest newly written code before pushing it live. “That’s bullshit and loser thinking. Of course it’s possible to be fast and secure,” Yen wrote in the channel at the end of August. “Stop thinking always of how to be slower, and focus more on how to be faster.”
I'm not someone who changes services whenever a negative story comes out - or else by this point I wouldn't be using the internet at all - but even if just half of this article is true... It's bad.
I was going to quote some more but like... Just read for yourselves or ask some LLM to summarize it. Like @snake_case said, this guy is the embodiment of all the worst traits of 2020's CEO's, and I don't trust that he's the best person to lead Proton.
When it's time to renew my yearly sub, I'm going to seriously consider jumping ship if he's still at the helm
Edit: sent an email to Proton Foundation asking them to use their position to pressure Andy Yen to step down. Not sure how much good that will do, but it's done anyway. And also cancelled the renewal explaining why.
Yikes. This is not a good look for a company whose sole focus is privacy and security.
When it's time to renew my yearly sub, I'm going to seriously consider jumping ship if he's still at the helm
I hadn't been that worried after the last article posted here, but I'm definitely in the same boat as you now. Going to start looking at alternatives asap
Yeah, me too. This sucks, I’ve basically been a user since 2015 and a paid subscriber since probably 2016. They’ve upgraded me with several perks over the years, to the point where I’m now an “unlimited” user with 580gb of Drive storage (that I don’t use anyway, but still). I guess I need to at least have a game plan.
Others have said you can use your own domain name for email, and doing so makes it easy(ier) to switch hosting providers in cases like these. I have one that I use for my own site. Would someone please explain to me how that works, or at least point me toward a resource or guide?
Basically, you'll need to open your domain registrar's DNS admin panel and set up the MX records, plus other ones like DKIM and DMARC that help validate your identity. The exact records you'll need depend on your email provider.
Despite how intimidating this may sound, it's actually pretty easy. You just need to copy and paste the values your email provider gives you into your DNS admin panel. The "hard" part is making sure you select the right record type. MX for the MX records, TXT for basically everything else, maybe a CNAME record to redirect to one of their servers.
I found this video by tutanota that explains the gist of it, but once again, the basics are the same for everyone else but the UI will change depending on your providers.
Geez, I am not a Proton user but that isn’t exactly reassuring from a company that markets themselves as the high priest of security. Many mistakes in software development leads back to something being done too fast.
I dunno if this is being said in jest, but enough people here do this unironically that I gotta say: Can we stop suggesting this?
Nobody needs an LLM to develop their opinion for them. If you're short on time, then please, find a human-written summary, skim the article, or just don't read. All of those are better than surrendering thought to a sycophantic penny-slot.
At the same time, though, it sounds exactly like something a narcissistic tech CEO would say. Like the Uber guy ranting at an Uber driver. I don't believe everything I read, but I also struggle to discount anything about tech executives for being too outlandish or self destructive.
Trustworthy enough I guess? I see them all the time but I don’t really know anything about their journalists or where their news actually comes from.
The implication in the article, and the timing, suggests that the info comes directly from an employee, but they don’t say that.
I would trust it more if the source was obvious and verifiable, but I assume whoever it is doesn’t want a defamation suit against them which kinda makes me wonder, is it factual.
“Perception is more important than truth, the truth doesn’t matter if you don’t win on perception.”
One employee told 404 Media, “Whatever persona Andy [Yen] has out of Proton, he’s a straight up bully inside. He routinely breaks his little facade in Slack and calls people losers and stupid, often for stuff he’s paying them for.”
Well congratulations Andy, now everyone perceives you as a stupid loser and it’s entirely of your own doing.
I’ve never been a customer of Proton but I’ve always had a high opinion of them as a company. Not anymore. There’s nothing to respect about a reckless, hurried company driven by a cocksure exec who creates a hostile work environment by belittling his employees and mocking their commitment to quality and care.
Yikes, well that clears up any questions we had in the other thread.
The article quotes an employee saying the CEO was in full "AI psychosis" and everything else seems to back that up. He seems to have dangerously unrealistic and ungrounded ideas about what agents are currently capable of. The "interviews" strategy now looks a lot more like a blatant attempt to bully their engineers to get on board.
Mass customer exodus incoming if this keeps getting coverage.
There were also a quotes from a manifesto another of their execs posted on slack which included:
Proton needs to get to the point where most code is not reviewed by humans but by AI
The tech is not there yet, and unlikely to get there in the near future. You can get closer if it's human in the loop the whole way, but that goes against their "faster losers!" mentality.
I'm shocked by this from a privacy and security company, it might turn out to be the worst case of AI delusion in the C suite that's played out publicly so far.
I'm a paid Proton user and generally like the service, but this is seriously making me think about how much of a pain it would be to switch. There are plenty of good, private email providers if you're not locked into Proton's full suite of services.
this is seriously making me think about how much of a pain it would be to switch.
I think that's generally a good indicator that you (or anyone) might be relying on a given provider too much. "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" as they say. We can never know what the future holds and whether the companies we trust today will remain trustworthy tomorrow.
For email in particular, as long as you have and use your own domain (which I would very highly recommend), switching providers is trivial.
I only have Proton email and mainly use my domain for email addresses, but not exclusively. Considering all of the services they offer and how many I self-host, I think my use is a far cry from putting all my eggs in their basket.
The pain is having to audit a couple years worth of emails to figure out which services, accounts, subscriptions, etc. I used which email address for, and then worrying that I missed an important one.
I had the opposite problem: I have a lot of use for a domain, but I couldn't come up with one that made sense for that use. I landed on a silly one, which is great for self-hosting services, but not as good when you have to explain to someone in person that your email is actually poop@clownpenis.fart
Email addresses are the main use case for the average person I'd say. If you ever feel like it, you can always hook it up to Codeberg / Github / Cloudflare pages and host a static site of something.
A blog, photos of your cats etc. It's pretty cool, and completely free.
I was softly considering leaving Proton as a result of Yen's last few bad takes, but this is nuclear-grade for me. I've had an annual subscription that I now have to migrate before it renews.
This is why I hate the "unintrusive and optional" AI offerings at so many companies; when that's around, it makes it all too likely that delusional behavior like this is hiding under the surface. How the hell do I know that Kagi, for example, isn't being exactly like this and we just haven't seen it yet?
I'm not the kind of person who obsessively keeps track of this sort of thing when I'm not proactively shopping for a service, but enough stuck in my brain from casual reading in recent years that when I was looking into changing e-mail services earlier this year I knew Proton was a risk because the CEO is an asshole. So when I read stuff like this my thought is "oh, yeah, checks out! I already knew that!" And I will keep on avoiding Proton for anything that matters.
I still think this doesn't fully invalidate Proton as a valid choice for a lot of people, though. Let's compare Proton with Google. Is Google in any way better than Proton? Arguably only if you trust in the perceived stability of having a very large customer base. Google's CEO is also an asshole. It's more privacy-hostile, more predatory, more expensive even (with caveats related to how you are using the service). They love AI and hate encryption. Yet so many of us stuck with them for so many years. I think keep an eye out for alternatives but there's no need to rush to leave Proton.
He then told a member of the team that made it to “go on Reddit.”
“So go on there with your personal account and comment to set the record straight,” he wrote. “Perception is more important than truth, the truth doesn’t matter if you don’t win on perception.”
I'm now 100% confident that all those people trying to argue against critics of his pro-Trump tweet were put up to it by him. There was a huge reverse backlash towards the people who criticized Yen saying that we were "falling for propaganda" or "being tricked".
What propaganda? I read the fucking Tweet myself and made my own decision about it. Dude is a loser. I cancelled immediately and my instincts were clearly right.
But yeah, he tweeted in support of Trump, who does not respect domestic or international privacy law in the actions of his administration, and is pushing LLMs as 'super intelligence'. All of these reports of his subsequent actions towards his staff back up that Yen is performing the same actions as the other Trump-supporting tech-CEOs do.
Even if you can ethically excuse financially supporting a company that publicly supports Trump (and now just quietly does, because it was unpopular), surely a privacy conscious person would look at the push to adopt LLM tools to increase speed as undermining the value proposition as the most secure, and the most safe service to purchase.
[OP] JCAPER | 16 hours ago
Still recuperating from the very first paragraph:
I'm not someone who changes services whenever a negative story comes out - or else by this point I wouldn't be using the internet at all - but even if just half of this article is true... It's bad.
I was going to quote some more but like... Just read for yourselves or ask some LLM to summarize it. Like @snake_case said, this guy is the embodiment of all the worst traits of 2020's CEO's, and I don't trust that he's the best person to lead Proton.
When it's time to renew my yearly sub, I'm going to seriously consider jumping ship if he's still at the helm
Edit: sent an email to Proton Foundation asking them to use their position to pressure Andy Yen to step down. Not sure how much good that will do, but it's done anyway. And also cancelled the renewal explaining why.
derekiscool | 15 hours ago
Yikes. This is not a good look for a company whose sole focus is privacy and security.
I hadn't been that worried after the last article posted here, but I'm definitely in the same boat as you now. Going to start looking at alternatives asap
merovingian | 7 hours ago
Yeah, me too. This sucks, I’ve basically been a user since 2015 and a paid subscriber since probably 2016. They’ve upgraded me with several perks over the years, to the point where I’m now an “unlimited” user with 580gb of Drive storage (that I don’t use anyway, but still). I guess I need to at least have a game plan.
Others have said you can use your own domain name for email, and doing so makes it easy(ier) to switch hosting providers in cases like these. I have one that I use for my own site. Would someone please explain to me how that works, or at least point me toward a resource or guide?
Kremor | 7 hours ago
Basically, you'll need to open your domain registrar's DNS admin panel and set up the MX records, plus other ones like DKIM and DMARC that help validate your identity. The exact records you'll need depend on your email provider.
Despite how intimidating this may sound, it's actually pretty easy. You just need to copy and paste the values your email provider gives you into your DNS admin panel. The "hard" part is making sure you select the right record type. MX for the MX records, TXT for basically everything else, maybe a CNAME record to redirect to one of their servers.
I found this video by tutanota that explains the gist of it, but once again, the basics are the same for everyone else but the UI will change depending on your providers.
preposterous | an hour ago
Sibling went into more detail than I will in this reply, I just wanted to echo how intimidating it looks but how simple it is in practice.
Virtually all email providers will tell you what to put in which record, so you just have to find your DNS console and then copy paste the values.
winther | 15 hours ago
Geez, I am not a Proton user but that isn’t exactly reassuring from a company that markets themselves as the high priest of security. Many mistakes in software development leads back to something being done too fast.
LukeZaz | 9 hours ago
I dunno if this is being said in jest, but enough people here do this unironically that I gotta say: Can we stop suggesting this?
Nobody needs an LLM to develop their opinion for them. If you're short on time, then please, find a human-written summary, skim the article, or just don't read. All of those are better than surrendering thought to a sycophantic penny-slot.
snake_case | 14 hours ago
It kinda sounds made up honestly. Like this is exactly what someone would say to torpedo a company on purpose.
glesica | 7 hours ago
At the same time, though, it sounds exactly like something a narcissistic tech CEO would say. Like the Uber guy ranting at an Uber driver. I don't believe everything I read, but I also struggle to discount anything about tech executives for being too outlandish or self destructive.
Deely | 11 hours ago
This is interesting take, on HN i saw a lot of negativity regarding Proton..
Im not familiar with 404media, how trustworthy they are as a company?
Upd: uff... looks like I will stop renewing my Proton subscription.
snake_case | 11 hours ago
Trustworthy enough I guess? I see them all the time but I don’t really know anything about their journalists or where their news actually comes from.
The implication in the article, and the timing, suggests that the info comes directly from an employee, but they don’t say that.
I would trust it more if the source was obvious and verifiable, but I assume whoever it is doesn’t want a defamation suit against them which kinda makes me wonder, is it factual.
snake_case | 16 hours ago
Man it’s like the worst instincts of every company Ive ever worked for all wrapped up in one person.
balooga | 15 hours ago
Well congratulations Andy, now everyone perceives you as a stupid loser and it’s entirely of your own doing.
I’ve never been a customer of Proton but I’ve always had a high opinion of them as a company. Not anymore. There’s nothing to respect about a reckless, hurried company driven by a cocksure exec who creates a hostile work environment by belittling his employees and mocking their commitment to quality and care.
What a hot mess.
post_below | 14 hours ago
Yikes, well that clears up any questions we had in the other thread.
The article quotes an employee saying the CEO was in full "AI psychosis" and everything else seems to back that up. He seems to have dangerously unrealistic and ungrounded ideas about what agents are currently capable of. The "interviews" strategy now looks a lot more like a blatant attempt to bully their engineers to get on board.
Mass customer exodus incoming if this keeps getting coverage.
There were also a quotes from a manifesto another of their execs posted on slack which included:
The tech is not there yet, and unlikely to get there in the near future. You can get closer if it's human in the loop the whole way, but that goes against their "faster losers!" mentality.
I'm shocked by this from a privacy and security company, it might turn out to be the worst case of AI delusion in the C suite that's played out publicly so far.
WhistlePig | 15 hours ago
I'm a paid Proton user and generally like the service, but this is seriously making me think about how much of a pain it would be to switch. There are plenty of good, private email providers if you're not locked into Proton's full suite of services.
Barney | 15 hours ago
I think that's generally a good indicator that you (or anyone) might be relying on a given provider too much. "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" as they say. We can never know what the future holds and whether the companies we trust today will remain trustworthy tomorrow.
For email in particular, as long as you have and use your own domain (which I would very highly recommend), switching providers is trivial.
WhistlePig | 14 hours ago
I only have Proton email and mainly use my domain for email addresses, but not exclusively. Considering all of the services they offer and how many I self-host, I think my use is a far cry from putting all my eggs in their basket.
The pain is having to audit a couple years worth of emails to figure out which services, accounts, subscriptions, etc. I used which email address for, and then worrying that I missed an important one.
Barney | 14 hours ago
Ahh, I misinterpreted your initial post then.
Thought that with "how much of a hassle it would be" you implied that it wouldn't be easy, instead of the literal interpretation.
Nihilego | 12 hours ago
Been thinking of getting a domain just because I saw a domain with a name I like, but couldn’t think of what to actually do with it
WhistlePig | 11 hours ago
I had the opposite problem: I have a lot of use for a domain, but I couldn't come up with one that made sense for that use. I landed on a silly one, which is great for self-hosting services, but not as good when you have to explain to someone in person that your email is actually poop@clownpenis.fart
Barney | 11 hours ago
Email addresses are the main use case for the average person I'd say. If you ever feel like it, you can always hook it up to Codeberg / Github / Cloudflare pages and host a static site of something.
A blog, photos of your cats etc. It's pretty cool, and completely free.
LukeZaz | 9 hours ago
I was softly considering leaving Proton as a result of Yen's last few bad takes, but this is nuclear-grade for me. I've had an annual subscription that I now have to migrate before it renews.
This is why I hate the "unintrusive and optional" AI offerings at so many companies; when that's around, it makes it all too likely that delusional behavior like this is hiding under the surface. How the hell do I know that Kagi, for example, isn't being exactly like this and we just haven't seen it yet?
Protected | 14 hours ago
I'm not the kind of person who obsessively keeps track of this sort of thing when I'm not proactively shopping for a service, but enough stuck in my brain from casual reading in recent years that when I was looking into changing e-mail services earlier this year I knew Proton was a risk because the CEO is an asshole. So when I read stuff like this my thought is "oh, yeah, checks out! I already knew that!" And I will keep on avoiding Proton for anything that matters.
I still think this doesn't fully invalidate Proton as a valid choice for a lot of people, though. Let's compare Proton with Google. Is Google in any way better than Proton? Arguably only if you trust in the perceived stability of having a very large customer base. Google's CEO is also an asshole. It's more privacy-hostile, more predatory, more expensive even (with caveats related to how you are using the service). They love AI and hate encryption. Yet so many of us stuck with them for so many years. I think keep an eye out for alternatives but there's no need to rush to leave Proton.
stu2b50 | 14 hours ago
Is he? What did Pichai do?
blastedheath | 7 hours ago
I'm now 100% confident that all those people trying to argue against critics of his pro-Trump tweet were put up to it by him. There was a huge reverse backlash towards the people who criticized Yen saying that we were "falling for propaganda" or "being tricked".
What propaganda? I read the fucking Tweet myself and made my own decision about it. Dude is a loser. I cancelled immediately and my instincts were clearly right.
IIIIIIIIII | 6 hours ago
The statement after that by an an official Proton account was highly upvoted, before being deleted due to non-reddit backlash.
At that point I thought it was just far more likely than not that paid or unpaid vote manipulation was going on.
Their attempts to walk it back were extremely silly.
But yeah, he tweeted in support of Trump, who does not respect domestic or international privacy law in the actions of his administration, and is pushing LLMs as 'super intelligence'. All of these reports of his subsequent actions towards his staff back up that Yen is performing the same actions as the other Trump-supporting tech-CEOs do.
Even if you can ethically excuse financially supporting a company that publicly supports Trump (and now just quietly does, because it was unpopular), surely a privacy conscious person would look at the push to adopt LLM tools to increase speed as undermining the value proposition as the most secure, and the most safe service to purchase.
pete_the_paper_boat | 9 hours ago
Oh