The trick to understanding the necrotic pageantry of modern American, Christian, Southern conservatism is realizing that the Civil War never actually ended in any meaningful moral sense. The shooting stopped. The graves filled. Statues went up. But the ideology and racist culture of the Confederacy was never dismantled with anything approaching the seriousness history demanded. Not in the way other countries like Germany, Japan and Italy dealt with their fascist uprisings.
The US reinstalled a ton of top criminal Nazis after the war because they were now more worried about the Soviets, and some of them were somewhat fascist themselves. Austria was basically given a free pass.
The problem is that Italy keeps electing megalomaniacs and/or fascists to their government, and the neo-Nazis are on the rise in Germany (and Austria too).
I don’t get where this idyllic vision that all Nazi and Japanese war criminals were properly dealt with after the war comes from. Lots of horrible people escaped prosecution and some even managed to make it back into government.
Stalin's suggestion at the 1943 Tehran conference was to summarily execute the 100,000 highest ranking persons in German society. The more I see how badly Nuremberg and De-Nazification failed (Paperclip, Unit 731, the derivatives thereof) the more I come to believe he had the right idea.
Paperclip and Unit 731 aren't examples of Nuremberg or denazification failing. Both countries were successfully denazified post-war and the operations to capture all the scientists for expatriation to the US were the smart move heading into the Cold War. The Soviets were also trying to capture as many of the German scientists as they could, after all.
The country most in need of denazification in 1945 has needed denazification since the end of the Civil War in 1865.
And if this sounds overheated or hysterical or insufficiently reverent toward the sacred bipartisan mythology of “healing,” it is worth remembering that after the Civil War, former Confederates were permitted to return to positions of power with astonishing speed. Men who had literally taken up arms against the United States government in order to preserve slavery were reabsorbed into political life so gently that within a decade they were writing textbooks about themselves as tragic heroes.
If elections happen in November, and if we end up getting rid of Trump sooner or later we'll need a "truth and reconciliation" type conclusion to all of this. Folks need to go to jail if we're gonna have any hope of repairing US democracy. My expectations are low.
And because the United States possesses the unique ability to transform catastrophic moral failure into sentimental folklore, the Confederacy was not remembered as a treasonous oligarchy built on industrialized torture, but as a sort of misunderstood regional identity involving barbecue and columns and men named Beauregard. The defeated planter class lost the war and then almost immediately coopted the narrative. Which turns out to matter more in the long run.
And dare I say something akin to de-Nazification needs to happen here with MAGA loyalists if this era of the American experiment ever comes to a close, but I am very pessimistic that anything will happen except a return to the status quo.
I think it's very unlikely that America returns to its previous status quo, too many conventions have been broken and one side is American politics is keenly intent on undermining even the very flawed democracy in America because they know they can no longer win a fair fight.
I agree. That's what they understand. You have to be tougher on them. It was unfortunately, IMO, one of Lincoln's mistakes. For example, not hanging the Confederate leaders for treason at the end of the war. But they hang the Dakota 38? They hang John Brown? They hang the Saint Patrick's Brigade (who switch sides to defend the Mexican people in the war with Mexico)? But they don't hang the Confederate leaders. It would have had a great sobering psychological effect on some of these characters. And if they hadn't hung the others.
Imagine postwar Germany erecting statues to regional Nazi generals because they were “complicated figures.” Imagine Germany allowing former architects of fascism to retake local governments...
The Confederate States should have been made territories and stripped of their federal voting powers, just like Guam, Puerto Rico, and the US Virgin Islands. Territories can not vote in presidential elections.
Keeping them as territories would undermine the argument that the union was indissoluble and that the states couldn't leave if the federal government could confiscate them.
30 different states voted for Trump but for whatever reason, we've decided that the 11 confederate states are responsible. What about the other 19 states that voted Trump? Free pass?
I suppose the argument being made is that because the Confederate political class wasn’t punished but absorbed and re-empowered, they took hold of the narrative - and then that narrative and sentiment spread, infecting a lot more of the country.
I absolutely agree with this, but in today’s world it’s not just the south that’s racist. It’s the whole country. There are actually more black Americans that live in the south than the north. The South is more diverse today whereas in the North a lot of neighborhoods are segregated. Not to mention the micro aggressions that people commit hourly on this site as an entirety alone. Within the south is also New Orleans, which is home to voodoo, the blues, and jazz. Theres also Atlanta which had a pivotal role in the Civil Rights movement and is the global HQ of Coca Cola.
I absolutely agree that yes that is where the problem stems from, but it is not a picture of what today’s South is. I’ve been falsely accused of being racist and uneducated for being from New Orleans. I’m a mixed Asian who went to private schools and graduated from a private high school that focused on STEM and the arts. The racists are all over America, running the country, etc. They are not currently in only one side of the country.
And Japan has not dealt with their past problems. Ask them about the Comfort Women.
It's actually the opposite, and the same thing that happens in war after war. The losers are neglected and left to rot in economic ruin. Poverty breeds desperation and hatred that lasts for generations. Nobody poor wants to blame themselves or their own ancestors for it. They always find another group to blame.
Confederate losers naturally blamed the freed slaves they were now forced to live with, who now instead of providing comfort and labor were now competing for scarce resources.
[OP] IllIntroduction1509 | 26 days ago
The trick to understanding the necrotic pageantry of modern American, Christian, Southern conservatism is realizing that the Civil War never actually ended in any meaningful moral sense. The shooting stopped. The graves filled. Statues went up. But the ideology and racist culture of the Confederacy was never dismantled with anything approaching the seriousness history demanded. Not in the way other countries like Germany, Japan and Italy dealt with their fascist uprisings.
cupacupacupacupacup | 26 days ago
The US reinstalled a ton of top criminal Nazis after the war because they were now more worried about the Soviets, and some of them were somewhat fascist themselves. Austria was basically given a free pass.
The problem is that Italy keeps electing megalomaniacs and/or fascists to their government, and the neo-Nazis are on the rise in Germany (and Austria too).
Chuhaimaster | 26 days ago
I don’t get where this idyllic vision that all Nazi and Japanese war criminals were properly dealt with after the war comes from. Lots of horrible people escaped prosecution and some even managed to make it back into government.
cupacupacupacupacup | 26 days ago
That's why the fight over memory is always the next battle after the end of an atrocity.
LeRoienJaune | 26 days ago
Stalin's suggestion at the 1943 Tehran conference was to summarily execute the 100,000 highest ranking persons in German society. The more I see how badly Nuremberg and De-Nazification failed (Paperclip, Unit 731, the derivatives thereof) the more I come to believe he had the right idea.
Spookyrabbit | 25 days ago
Paperclip and Unit 731 aren't examples of Nuremberg or denazification failing. Both countries were successfully denazified post-war and the operations to capture all the scientists for expatriation to the US were the smart move heading into the Cold War. The Soviets were also trying to capture as many of the German scientists as they could, after all.
The country most in need of denazification in 1945 has needed denazification since the end of the Civil War in 1865.
chrisbcritter | 26 days ago
Yep, look up the immunity granted for the perpetrators of the Rape of Nanking or the hideous atrocities committed at Unit 731.
smuckola | 26 days ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy
yep keep saying it. The losers wrote history.
And this victorious victim narrative, built on slavery and genocide and conquest, became the playbook for Hitler.
https://www.history.com/articles/how-the-nazis-were-inspired-by-jim-crow
Jim Crow laws were too racist for Nazis so they had to tone it down.
bottom | 26 days ago
ah, good old hindsight!
[OP] IllIntroduction1509 | 26 days ago
And if this sounds overheated or hysterical or insufficiently reverent toward the sacred bipartisan mythology of “healing,” it is worth remembering that after the Civil War, former Confederates were permitted to return to positions of power with astonishing speed. Men who had literally taken up arms against the United States government in order to preserve slavery were reabsorbed into political life so gently that within a decade they were writing textbooks about themselves as tragic heroes.
idredd | 26 days ago
Yep.
If elections happen in November, and if we end up getting rid of Trump sooner or later we'll need a "truth and reconciliation" type conclusion to all of this. Folks need to go to jail if we're gonna have any hope of repairing US democracy. My expectations are low.
Shiftymennoknight | 26 days ago
and the whole world is paying for it
[OP] IllIntroduction1509 | 26 days ago
And because the United States possesses the unique ability to transform catastrophic moral failure into sentimental folklore, the Confederacy was not remembered as a treasonous oligarchy built on industrialized torture, but as a sort of misunderstood regional identity involving barbecue and columns and men named Beauregard. The defeated planter class lost the war and then almost immediately coopted the narrative. Which turns out to matter more in the long run.
chiaboy | 26 days ago
Why do I feel like 60% of domestic news headlines should read “we just discovered the thing black people have been saying for generations”?
Redboots77 | 26 days ago
It never truly ended
spiralcurve | 26 days ago
And dare I say something akin to de-Nazification needs to happen here with MAGA loyalists if this era of the American experiment ever comes to a close, but I am very pessimistic that anything will happen except a return to the status quo.
sharlos | 26 days ago
I think it's very unlikely that America returns to its previous status quo, too many conventions have been broken and one side is American politics is keenly intent on undermining even the very flawed democracy in America because they know they can no longer win a fair fight.
briankerin | 26 days ago
January 6'ers were pardoned, so where will that lead us?
mira_poix | 26 days ago
Women see it every day. Violent men, especially racist ones, get a slap on the wrist.
hereandthere_nowhere | 26 days ago
Should’ve let Sherman finish the job.
Dman45EVA | 26 days ago
Should have hung more traitors.
Northern_Blue_Jay | 26 days ago
I agree. That's what they understand. You have to be tougher on them. It was unfortunately, IMO, one of Lincoln's mistakes. For example, not hanging the Confederate leaders for treason at the end of the war. But they hang the Dakota 38? They hang John Brown? They hang the Saint Patrick's Brigade (who switch sides to defend the Mexican people in the war with Mexico)? But they don't hang the Confederate leaders. It would have had a great sobering psychological effect on some of these characters. And if they hadn't hung the others.
[OP] IllIntroduction1509 | 26 days ago
Imagine postwar Germany erecting statues to regional Nazi generals because they were “complicated figures.” Imagine Germany allowing former architects of fascism to retake local governments...
GreyBeardEng | 26 days ago
The Confederate States should have been made territories and stripped of their federal voting powers, just like Guam, Puerto Rico, and the US Virgin Islands. Territories can not vote in presidential elections.
sharlos | 26 days ago
Keeping them as territories would undermine the argument that the union was indissoluble and that the states couldn't leave if the federal government could confiscate them.
Leo_York | 25 days ago
Reconstruction now, reconstruction forever
somuchacceptable | 25 days ago
Nazis also weren’t punished enough.
Affectionate-Tank-70 | 26 days ago
I could not agree with this more. I know southerns, they still defend slavery.
z960849 | 25 days ago
Dis enfranchising black representation wasn't the goal they want to change the constitution and you need 2/3 of Congress for that.
Medical_Original6290 | 26 days ago
30 different states voted for Trump but for whatever reason, we've decided that the 11 confederate states are responsible. What about the other 19 states that voted Trump? Free pass?
AwTomorrow | 26 days ago
I suppose the argument being made is that because the Confederate political class wasn’t punished but absorbed and re-empowered, they took hold of the narrative - and then that narrative and sentiment spread, infecting a lot more of the country.
[OP] IllIntroduction1509 | 26 days ago
Yes, and no state is a monolith, there are racists everywhere.
[OP] IllIntroduction1509 | 26 days ago
No, but I don't think this is about good states and bad states. I think it's about ideology, and white supremacists are everywhere.
airpipeline | 26 days ago
Following the post-WW II example, perhaps confederates were punished too much and that’s why they never really became allies, like Germany and Japan?
(At least Germany and Japan were allies until the current U.S. president decided that it would be better to support dictators like Putin in Russia)
Pawspawsmeow | 26 days ago
I absolutely agree with this, but in today’s world it’s not just the south that’s racist. It’s the whole country. There are actually more black Americans that live in the south than the north. The South is more diverse today whereas in the North a lot of neighborhoods are segregated. Not to mention the micro aggressions that people commit hourly on this site as an entirety alone. Within the south is also New Orleans, which is home to voodoo, the blues, and jazz. Theres also Atlanta which had a pivotal role in the Civil Rights movement and is the global HQ of Coca Cola.
I absolutely agree that yes that is where the problem stems from, but it is not a picture of what today’s South is. I’ve been falsely accused of being racist and uneducated for being from New Orleans. I’m a mixed Asian who went to private schools and graduated from a private high school that focused on STEM and the arts. The racists are all over America, running the country, etc. They are not currently in only one side of the country.
And Japan has not dealt with their past problems. Ask them about the Comfort Women.
CeruleanEidolon | 26 days ago
It's actually the opposite, and the same thing that happens in war after war. The losers are neglected and left to rot in economic ruin. Poverty breeds desperation and hatred that lasts for generations. Nobody poor wants to blame themselves or their own ancestors for it. They always find another group to blame.
Confederate losers naturally blamed the freed slaves they were now forced to live with, who now instead of providing comfort and labor were now competing for scarce resources.
TheHamAndTheGuap | 26 days ago
Yankee propaganda 😂