I don't care about who's guilty or innocent; I just don't feel like the state should be killing people, like ever (barring exceptional circumstances such as out of self defence).
As the aphorism goes: if you kill a murderer the number of murderers remains the same.
It's not about primitive or not. There are crimes that deserve death. It's about there being no good mechanism to grant any entity the power to execute people that won't then be abused.
But what about cases where there is no dispute over guilt--i.e. the offender admits they did it, and/or there were multiple witnesses to the incidence? Would you support the death penalty in those cases?
If a person rapes another with witnesses, do we then rape the raper? If you beat someone within an inch of their life, but they don’t die, do we then beat the assailant? If some is a thief, do we then steal their shit? Why do we murder the murderer?
I'm asking a question. You're acting like I stated a position. The answer to your question is that in a lot of societies people are executed for far less than murder. Why do they do it? To remove people from society that are deemed unfit and prevent them from participating in that society (intellectually or physically) ever again. If you're looking for me to offer a defense of that, I doubt I have anything that will satisfy you.
I don't support it in any scenario, personally. Pretty much anyone can be rehabilitated. We can learn a lot from Denmark's prison system. Even in the case where they can't be rehabilitated, they are valuable in the sense that we can learn from them and how to avoid people becoming this way in the future.
Right so it's not wrongful execution you're opposed to per se, but rather just execution in general. You are opposed to retributive justice. Which is fine, but I just want to point out that that is not the argument you led with.
Lol are you fucking serious? Literally who cares why I lead with that? It wasn't deceitful. I just thought it would be a more convincing argument for most people.
Because you deliberately led with something which you knew would be more palatable to people rather that what your real ideological goal was. You were being deceptive.
Respectfully, my friend, you are going to have to go take a nap or something. If you're going to make it in this world, you can't be picking fights with people over trivial things like this. Hand on your shoulder right now I'm telling you that this is fucking crazy.
Respectfully, you are incredibly disrespectful, which is no way to win a debate. But at any rate, I take it you'd be on the side of Greeks that executed Socrates--that's ironic.
"All grandeur, all power, all subordination to authority rests on the executioner: he is the horror and the bond of human association. Remove this incomprehensible agent from the world and at that very moment order gives way to chaos, thrones topple and society disappears." - Joseph de Maistre
"Capital punishment is the most premeditated of murders, to which no criminal's deed, however calculated can be compared. For there to be an equivalency, the death penalty would have to punish a criminal who had warned his victim of the date at which he would inflict a horrible death on him and who, from that moment onward, had confined him at his mercy for months. Such a monster is not encountered in private life." - Albert Camus
I absolutely agree that we shouldn't be doing capital punishment. I believe there are some people who the world would be better off without, but I don't think it's our place to do it, especially since we can't be 100% certain it's the right time.
In a case like this though, where there's no question who did it, and the details of what she did are so horrific, that I have absolutely no sympathy for the suffering she is going through
I'm not going to feel bad for a woman who lured a girl into the woods, tortured her for hours in ways that make me sick just to read about, intentionally keeping her alive to extend her suffering, and then keeps a peice of her skull as a keepsake to remember the experience.
I don't think we should have made the decision to kill her in the first place, but given the fact that we decided to try, I'm not losing the least bit of sleep over her pain.
I don't think this is a problem with the drugs, though I also think there are better drugs for the job (that's beside the point); with her screaming about pain in her arm, my guess would be that the IV was incorrectly placed and they were pumping the drugs into muscle, not her bloodstream.
That’s happened before, with Lockett. He died of a heart attack, not directly from the medication.
They had several IVs fail and they put one in his femoral artery. This also failed but they had put a cover over it because it was in his groin so they didn’t see the IV wasn’t in the vein.
You don’t put IVs in arteries, there’s too much pressure. Instead, you’d put an arterial line in for pressure monitoring or if you have to take a ton of blood. That line is pretty secure tho, you can just pop it out like a normal
IV line.
Yeah, I've watched a couple of breakdowns from doctors, and while there's not enough info to be certain, most of them seem to be of the opinion that either they failed to place it properly to begin with or the line blew out, and either way it likely didn't properly enter her bloodstream.
This is a rabbit hole you really should research. In short, no. The drug companies don't want their name attached to drugs that kill people. Turns out that's really bad publicity. Doctors don't even administer them to inmates.
Be fair, pentobarbital is used in very limited circumstances (since it's been replaced by benzos). I am sure that drug already has its reputation tainted with it being called yellow jackets.
Yeah but you'd think there is a measured cocktail dose that just kills you but its not and that's the reason why. It seems more humae but really they're just dumping whatever into people and hoping they die.
Hit a vein and none of this is an issue. Have random dude who isn’t a licensed phlebotomist do the work, you put the chem in the fat of the arm and now it has no where to go.
Hardly magic or a faulty chemical just pure stupidity and the prison system doing absolutely everything on the cheap. Not even one time will they be able to just pay full price for a service that lets people die with dignity.
Idc your politics, everyone deserves to die with dignity. If the capital punishment is going to be applied, at least do it correctly.
Personally, I believe the death sentence should be more exciting. Do it naked-and-afraid style. Drive them out to middle of the Canadian wilderness, give them a knife, flint and a water canteen. Best of luck. You live, you live. You die, you die. Either way you’ve served a huge sentence in prison, and earned your way back to society. Or, you’ve died with dignity.
Have you been to the Canadian wilderness? It’s a pretty severe punishment. It’s like hundreds, even thousands of miles to civilization in most cases. But the game needs to be “winnable”.
Why does it "need to be winnable"? They've been sentenced to death. Why not just wait until mid-winter and fly them out to somewhere remote in the arctic? No jacket. They'll be dead in under a day. Note that I'm against this idea and the idea of capital punishment.
What’s the fun in that? If we want to get away from shit like this, where people’s arms metabolize chem, isn’t it more interesting to have them struggle ?
If you wanted to reform humans. A death penalty isn’t really getting you there. Neither is boxing them up. So box for some time for repenting. Then a grand challenge, if you can make it out, you’ve hopefully been so close to death that life becomes very valuable to you. And you see real change in your life.
Yea, for sure. But a phlebotomist license is like a two year certificate of training. You can get guards training. Learning to put needles in arms is something you can learn from your own study but overweight people are just kinda tough without a background in anatomy. It’s clear this person is very overweight. So, finding veins in arms is like throwing darts. A phlebotomist would have seen that and used the hand or foot.
No. You can find her page on the Tennessee Department of Corrections Offender Search. Christa Pike is 5'3" and 118 pounds (or in metric units, 161 cm and 53.5 kg). That's definitely not overweight.
The people tasked with carrying out executions are just extremely underqualified to do anything complex related to the human body. Christa also has unusually small veins and some kind of rare blood disorder (both of which she brought up in her unsuccessful clemency petition). There are other reasons why things could have been complicated besides Christa being overweight, which she wasn't.
I am an actual phlebotomist and what are you talking about. For a start, she is not very overweight. You are also really overstating the difficulties associated with phlebotomy in overweight people. Very rarely have I ever had difficulties with phlebotomy that are due to a persons weight. The only real difference is theres extra fat between the skin and vein so it might not be as easy to feel but if you have decent veins, it takes a lot of excess weight to not find a vein. She had poor veins, but her weight was nothing to do with it. No phlebotomist is going into the hand or foot just looking at someone who is overweight anyway. You check the inner elbow first and finding those veins are nothing like throwing darts
Which is wild because the privatized prison system is a racket. The most american thing is privatizing needlessly public sectors, delivering half what the rest of the world gets and charging twice as much for it, only for the laborers to make minimum wage while the vast majority of the money gets handed to the schmucks that rigged the system in the first place.
Tabsels | 12 hours ago
Capital punishment is barbaric and should be banned everywhere.
Bob_Sledding | 11 hours ago
4% of the capitally punished are later found to be innocent. No one should support their tax dollars killing innocent people.
Tabsels | 11 hours ago
I don't care about who's guilty or innocent; I just don't feel like the state should be killing people, like ever (barring exceptional circumstances such as out of self defence).
As the aphorism goes: if you kill a murderer the number of murderers remains the same.
Bob_Sledding | 11 hours ago
Completely agree. It's just primitive.
Paimon | 10 hours ago
It's not about primitive or not. There are crimes that deserve death. It's about there being no good mechanism to grant any entity the power to execute people that won't then be abused.
SeverianTheSeeker | 9 hours ago
But what about cases where there is no dispute over guilt--i.e. the offender admits they did it, and/or there were multiple witnesses to the incidence? Would you support the death penalty in those cases?
Nopain59 | 3 hours ago
If a person rapes another with witnesses, do we then rape the raper? If you beat someone within an inch of their life, but they don’t die, do we then beat the assailant? If some is a thief, do we then steal their shit? Why do we murder the murderer?
SeverianTheSeeker | 2 hours ago
I'm asking a question. You're acting like I stated a position. The answer to your question is that in a lot of societies people are executed for far less than murder. Why do they do it? To remove people from society that are deemed unfit and prevent them from participating in that society (intellectually or physically) ever again. If you're looking for me to offer a defense of that, I doubt I have anything that will satisfy you.
Bob_Sledding | 9 hours ago
I don't support it in any scenario, personally. Pretty much anyone can be rehabilitated. We can learn a lot from Denmark's prison system. Even in the case where they can't be rehabilitated, they are valuable in the sense that we can learn from them and how to avoid people becoming this way in the future.
SeverianTheSeeker | 9 hours ago
Right so it's not wrongful execution you're opposed to per se, but rather just execution in general. You are opposed to retributive justice. Which is fine, but I just want to point out that that is not the argument you led with.
Bob_Sledding | 8 hours ago
Lol are you fucking serious? Literally who cares why I lead with that? It wasn't deceitful. I just thought it would be a more convincing argument for most people.
SeverianTheSeeker | 8 hours ago
Because you deliberately led with something which you knew would be more palatable to people rather that what your real ideological goal was. You were being deceptive.
Bob_Sledding | 8 hours ago
Respectfully, my friend, you are going to have to go take a nap or something. If you're going to make it in this world, you can't be picking fights with people over trivial things like this. Hand on your shoulder right now I'm telling you that this is fucking crazy.
SeverianTheSeeker | 7 hours ago
Respectfully, you are incredibly disrespectful, which is no way to win a debate. But at any rate, I take it you'd be on the side of Greeks that executed Socrates--that's ironic.
Bob_Sledding | 7 hours ago
The fact that you think I'm the one being disrespectful right now is extremely telling to everyone except for you.
Tabsels | 5 hours ago
I'm fine with life imprisonment. That's not a "mild" sentence by any measure btw.
OldnFuninMN | 9 hours ago
If there is 100% factual evidence then yes.
SeverianTheSeeker | 9 hours ago
Are you aware that is the case for Christa Pike?
OldnFuninMN | 3 hours ago
Comment was stated in a general sense. If they're is irrefutable proof then yes I agree with capital punishment.
But irrefutable proof is rare.
cali_tossaway | 7 hours ago
No, because an admission is a mitigating factor. They’ve taken responsibility. Denial earns death.
SeverianTheSeeker | 7 hours ago
"All grandeur, all power, all subordination to authority rests on the executioner: he is the horror and the bond of human association. Remove this incomprehensible agent from the world and at that very moment order gives way to chaos, thrones topple and society disappears." - Joseph de Maistre
Tabsels | 5 hours ago
"Capital punishment is the most premeditated of murders, to which no criminal's deed, however calculated can be compared. For there to be an equivalency, the death penalty would have to punish a criminal who had warned his victim of the date at which he would inflict a horrible death on him and who, from that moment onward, had confined him at his mercy for months. Such a monster is not encountered in private life." - Albert Camus
LetReasonRing | 41 minutes ago
I'm kind of a weird of when it comes to this.
I absolutely agree that we shouldn't be doing capital punishment. I believe there are some people who the world would be better off without, but I don't think it's our place to do it, especially since we can't be 100% certain it's the right time.
In a case like this though, where there's no question who did it, and the details of what she did are so horrific, that I have absolutely no sympathy for the suffering she is going through
Tabsels | 30 minutes ago
Look up moral injury. No-one should be inflicting this.
LetReasonRing | 25 minutes ago
I understand what moral injury is.
I'm not going to feel bad for a woman who lured a girl into the woods, tortured her for hours in ways that make me sick just to read about, intentionally keeping her alive to extend her suffering, and then keeps a peice of her skull as a keepsake to remember the experience.
I don't think we should have made the decision to kill her in the first place, but given the fact that we decided to try, I'm not losing the least bit of sleep over her pain.
Elessar535 | 9 hours ago
I don't think this is a problem with the drugs, though I also think there are better drugs for the job (that's beside the point); with her screaming about pain in her arm, my guess would be that the IV was incorrectly placed and they were pumping the drugs into muscle, not her bloodstream.
atlantagirl30084 | 6 hours ago
That’s happened before, with Lockett. He died of a heart attack, not directly from the medication.
They had several IVs fail and they put one in his femoral artery. This also failed but they had put a cover over it because it was in his groin so they didn’t see the IV wasn’t in the vein.
AlarmedSnek | 5 hours ago
You don’t put IVs in arteries, there’s too much pressure. Instead, you’d put an arterial line in for pressure monitoring or if you have to take a ton of blood. That line is pretty secure tho, you can just pop it out like a normal
IV line.
atlantagirl30084 | 5 hours ago
Hm, maybe a vein there then, not an artery.
LetReasonRing | 47 minutes ago
Yeah, I've watched a couple of breakdowns from doctors, and while there's not enough info to be certain, most of them seem to be of the opinion that either they failed to place it properly to begin with or the line blew out, and either way it likely didn't properly enter her bloodstream.
Comrade-Conquistador | 11 hours ago
Or, does she...?
Dog_Baseball | 9 hours ago
She's a witch! Burn her!
/s
Faolyn | 7 hours ago
Build a bridge out of her!
Dog_Baseball | 6 hours ago
She turned me into a newt!
Weep4Thee | 9 hours ago
Ppl thought she had magical powers? That made my day. Ppl are soooo stupid.
fighterpilottim | an hour ago
Like a “witch” who survived drowning - survival treated as proof of the crime
Chrono_Convoy | 11 hours ago
So…
She has magical powers after all /s
xanadumuse | 11 hours ago
“Let’s throw the witch into the water! If she sinks - she’s not a witch !”
evelyn_bartmoss | 11 hours ago
The state should not have the authority to execute people, period.
OldnFuninMN | 9 hours ago
We do through war. Insurance companies do it every day through refusal of care.
Faolyn | 7 hours ago
But should we have the right to kill via war or refusal of care?
OpeningActivity | 11 hours ago
At the risk of sounding out of place, I assume that this is the same chemical method they use for Voluntary Assisted Dyjng?
aspophilia | 11 hours ago
It’s not.
OpeningActivity | 11 hours ago
I thought it was pentobarbital (the chemical used here) or nitrogen gas that's used for VAD?
Bob_Sledding | 11 hours ago
Guys stop downvoting people for asking innocent questions. Holy fuck. Asking good faith questions should always be encouraged. Let people learn.
skruffywuffy | 10 hours ago
Ppl suk
badwolfswift | 9 hours ago
This is a rabbit hole you really should research. In short, no. The drug companies don't want their name attached to drugs that kill people. Turns out that's really bad publicity. Doctors don't even administer them to inmates.
OpeningActivity | 9 hours ago
Be fair, pentobarbital is used in very limited circumstances (since it's been replaced by benzos). I am sure that drug already has its reputation tainted with it being called yellow jackets.
badwolfswift | 8 hours ago
Yeah but you'd think there is a measured cocktail dose that just kills you but its not and that's the reason why. It seems more humae but really they're just dumping whatever into people and hoping they die.
travelinTxn | 11 hours ago
It’s one of the meds used usually paired with several more. Check out the methods section of the Wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_suicide
waitingOnMyletter | 11 hours ago
Hit a vein and none of this is an issue. Have random dude who isn’t a licensed phlebotomist do the work, you put the chem in the fat of the arm and now it has no where to go.
Hardly magic or a faulty chemical just pure stupidity and the prison system doing absolutely everything on the cheap. Not even one time will they be able to just pay full price for a service that lets people die with dignity.
Idc your politics, everyone deserves to die with dignity. If the capital punishment is going to be applied, at least do it correctly.
Personally, I believe the death sentence should be more exciting. Do it naked-and-afraid style. Drive them out to middle of the Canadian wilderness, give them a knife, flint and a water canteen. Best of luck. You live, you live. You die, you die. Either way you’ve served a huge sentence in prison, and earned your way back to society. Or, you’ve died with dignity.
BussyPlaster | 11 hours ago
I love how you just volunteer Canada for our most extreme convicts.
waitingOnMyletter | 10 hours ago
Have you been to the Canadian wilderness? It’s a pretty severe punishment. It’s like hundreds, even thousands of miles to civilization in most cases. But the game needs to be “winnable”.
Boring_and_sons | 8 hours ago
Why does it "need to be winnable"? They've been sentenced to death. Why not just wait until mid-winter and fly them out to somewhere remote in the arctic? No jacket. They'll be dead in under a day. Note that I'm against this idea and the idea of capital punishment.
waitingOnMyletter | 5 hours ago
What’s the fun in that? If we want to get away from shit like this, where people’s arms metabolize chem, isn’t it more interesting to have them struggle ?
If you wanted to reform humans. A death penalty isn’t really getting you there. Neither is boxing them up. So box for some time for repenting. Then a grand challenge, if you can make it out, you’ve hopefully been so close to death that life becomes very valuable to you. And you see real change in your life.
Boring_and_sons | 4 hours ago
You see the punishment of others as a source for "fun"? JFC, get some help.
waitingOnMyletter | 3 hours ago
I bet you’re fun to chat with at parties 😂
Smallwhitedog | 2 hours ago
The salient point is that it's in Canada. Our criminals are not their problem. Also, this idea is something a 14 year old would propose.
Ok_Photograph6398 | 9 hours ago
Like the movie running man?
ACrazyDog | 10 hours ago
It is kind of hard to get real doctors to participate in this
waitingOnMyletter | 10 hours ago
Yea, for sure. But a phlebotomist license is like a two year certificate of training. You can get guards training. Learning to put needles in arms is something you can learn from your own study but overweight people are just kinda tough without a background in anatomy. It’s clear this person is very overweight. So, finding veins in arms is like throwing darts. A phlebotomist would have seen that and used the hand or foot.
Boulier | 7 hours ago
>It's clear this person is very overweight
No. You can find her page on the Tennessee Department of Corrections Offender Search. Christa Pike is 5'3" and 118 pounds (or in metric units, 161 cm and 53.5 kg). That's definitely not overweight.
The people tasked with carrying out executions are just extremely underqualified to do anything complex related to the human body. Christa also has unusually small veins and some kind of rare blood disorder (both of which she brought up in her unsuccessful clemency petition). There are other reasons why things could have been complicated besides Christa being overweight, which she wasn't.
partlyokayish | 6 hours ago
I am an actual phlebotomist and what are you talking about. For a start, she is not very overweight. You are also really overstating the difficulties associated with phlebotomy in overweight people. Very rarely have I ever had difficulties with phlebotomy that are due to a persons weight. The only real difference is theres extra fat between the skin and vein so it might not be as easy to feel but if you have decent veins, it takes a lot of excess weight to not find a vein. She had poor veins, but her weight was nothing to do with it. No phlebotomist is going into the hand or foot just looking at someone who is overweight anyway. You check the inner elbow first and finding those veins are nothing like throwing darts
OldnFuninMN | 9 hours ago
Drawing blood is different than placing an IV.
Par_Lapides | 9 hours ago
Nitrogen. Cheap. Easy. Clean. Quick. Painless.
waitingOnMyletter | 9 hours ago
Yea…. But I like the idea of giving someone an opportunity. How much does it matter to you, ya know?
ItsTheJacketttt | 8 hours ago
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Godzlittlehand | 11 hours ago
It's because of the fact that the mixture was wrong. Likely because the department isn't as well funded/staffed as it was once upon a time...
dontcha_wanna_fanta | 11 hours ago
Which is wild because the privatized prison system is a racket. The most american thing is privatizing needlessly public sectors, delivering half what the rest of the world gets and charging twice as much for it, only for the laborers to make minimum wage while the vast majority of the money gets handed to the schmucks that rigged the system in the first place.