Well, part of it is exactly what the author mentions: a whole lot of grifters preying on fears of loneliness to get sad people in a room, tell them what they're lacking and selling it at a higher price point. But more simply, I think for the first time we live in an era where it's not only possible but socially acceptable to not be married, while being financially independent. So people are a whole lot pickier than they used to be, particularly women. I don't think it's a bad thing. I've known too many women jump into toxic relationships with men who treated them like dirt because they were afraid of being single.
I’ve noticed that it seems like a lot of those men who treat their wives/girlfriends like dirt are also settling for someone they don’t actually like that much, just so they don’t have to be alone.
I hear so many men bitch about their partners like being single isn’t an option.
Yes! I never see anybody talk about this dynamic. Most men don't form very close bonds with friends and romantic relationships are their primary emotional connection, so a lot of men get and stay in unhappy romantic relationships just to stave off the crushing loneliness of being single. Currently, the only acceptable version of happily single for men is being a bachelor/player, and even that revolves around having sex with women.
It makes you wonder how different things would be if there was a wholesome, happy version of being happily single for men in the way that there is for women. For women, being single is about decentralizing men, empowerment, living life to the fullest, working on yourself, growing your career, engaging in hobbies, chosen family and girlfriends, et cetera. Even if it isn't literally that, the conoation is one of empowerment. It's what lets women walk away from relationships and dating and be more picky if they do want to date. Men deserve those things, too, both for their well-being and so they don't settle for relationships they aren't happy with.
This is a great point. I think unfortunately many men are raised with some toxic ideas of masculinity, namely that they have to be totally stoically self reliant and are not allowed to acknowledge their emotional needs or risk appearing weak.
I feel so fortunate my husband has a great group of male friends that can be a good example of men caring about and supporting each other for my son. I
This is very interesting. I guess yeah there isn't an empowering version of a single man, it's always still focused on getting another girlfriend. For women part of the fun is being with your friends - and men don't seem to do that as much
It's not that men naturally don't do things with friends, it's that the spaces and organisations where they did so have been systematically destroyed. All the working mens' clubs and the like are gone.
Why do you think this is? From limited reading online, it seems most of these groups and clubs just had steadily declining membership as young men turned more to technology, finding these groups irrelevant or inconvenient, so most of them became financially insolvent. Perhaps as well increased real estate costs, increased expectations from employers (leading to less time for volunteers to contribute)?
>But more simply, I think for the first time we live in an era where it's not only possible but socially acceptable to not be married, while being financially independent.
For the first time (in Western culture, at least), women don't need to marry to survive. Being male and having a job that can support a wife (and possibly children) is no longer sufficient.
This. All these men coping but simply a Lot of Women live fulfilled lives and dont need to marry. Like a Lot of us are content being single and only getting in a relationship If we Love them\we Match. While men want a bangmaid and complain about the loneliness epidemic
>for the first time we live in an era where it's not only possible but socially acceptable to not be married, while being financially independent.
It's been my theory for a while that marriage stats and birthrates are not "falling" so much as they're normalizing towards what they would have been all along if women had always had the rights and resources necessary to opt out.
I think of all the things the author discusses, this single paragraph does the most to capture the primary problem:
>In interviews, people kept saying they knew they ought to make time for romance, but then when would they see their friends or travel or exercise or get ahead at work? Dating has always entailed some hardship, but it used to be the norm to find love in everyday life—at the office, at church, at a party. People didn’t need to choose what to step away from. Now many of the quirks of modern life have made meeting organically in person less likely. More people are tucked away at home, working remotely, streaming TV, and having food delivered to their door; approaching strangers feels fraught when so many of us are used to flirting via text with people who have already “liked” us. So we depend on the apps even as we resent them. Dating becomes another responsibility to squeeze in, “like you’re scheduling a job interview,” Sarah Boyle, a 29-year-old public defender in Chicago, told me. “Oh, let me pencil in this date for three weeks from now with this stranger from the internet.”
My daughter always asks me how I have so many interesting stories from my youth (and from the present, too, really).
It's because I grew up in a time when "living it up" meant going out. You met people. You experienced things. You gathered. I still try to do most things in person today and go to lots of formal and informal events with my wife, simply because that's what living is.
Sitting at home every day with your only communication with the outside world through social media and occasionally texting friends you hardly make time to see in person is not living.
When you do that, you're just running the clock out on your own existence. You don't meet people, you don't form networks of close and casual friendships, and if you're single, you're probably going to stay that way indefinitely.
Now we can talk about all the things that contribute to this situation. People have less disposable income. People work longer hours. Younger people are often pretty socially awkward because they've lived in a hyper-mediated social media world their entire lives and they're scared to take risks. Third places are few and far between (and even fewer are economical to access). Playing on your phone and wasting your life away is incredibly appealing in the moment.
It's not just simply "people don't go out!" yet at the same time... it is simply, people don't go out.
Not only do people just not go out anymore, many fear others when they do or treat them as expendable. Growing up under the panopticon of an extremely judgmental, social media-addled society makes people fear interaction with others. So many of us are pathologically afraid to interact with one another because we have a habit of thinking the other person is somehow the social media gender war boogeyman of the day. Many more are dismissive of others simply because they know they can find a replacement around the corner on a dating app, or in the inverse, dropping out of dating altogether because there’s no point when the impression is that everyone is just playing the field and no one actually cares for connection.
So much of it at the end of the day is paranoia and ego protection. The only way to find love is to go out and live. Opt out of the cynicism and give people a shot.
It really can't be said enough. Growing up in a social media world where you feel like your peers are actively surveilling you and have the power to ruin your life on an international scale with a single video is... chilling. People joke about stuff like "kids don't party anymore! they don't even dance in clubs! What the hell?" but they're all terrified of getting Black Mirror cancelled for making a mistake in any context.
Can’t forget all the neurotic rules too. I remember when “not texting too quick” and the obligatory Instagram-stalking background check were such big deals back when I was still dating, I can’t imagine how bad it is now. That stuff really drives people to some bizarre routes that just screws their success at finding connection.
I think it’s a lesson a lot of people have to learn as I did when I first did study abroad two years ago in my bachelor’s, and was incredibly depressed and lonely. I used to think I had to wait around to be invited to go out and do things but after months of wallowing, I went fuck it and just initiated plans with people I’ve only met once or twice and it went pretty well. Learned a lot from that experience that you really have to be the one to go out there
IMO it's less that people aren't going out and more that they're no longer approaching each other for romance when they do. It used to be normal that people would flirt and men would hit on women in bars, in hobbies, at friend hangouts, even at work. Now we've made it that only creeps do that, maybe rightly, but we haven't really replaced it with anything except dates-scheduled-like-job-interviews.
Not only does the lack of "third spaces" in our society contribute to that, I can't help but think the ubiquity of porn does, too. Why bother going out to get laid? Gooning out to free porn and sex toys is more convenient and doesn't require the vulnerability of approaching others in public. No risk of rejection, no challenging ingrained avoidant behaviors.
This is the answer and it surprises me the author didn’t mention it. There’s been a 90% rise in porn consumption since 2000. The average person encounters it at age 11. Its constant availability means sexual gratification with another person is less necessary and for many not necessary at all. Please note I’m a progressive and don’t believe porn is immoral. It’s just that humans aren’t designed to have 24/7 access to it, it’s a powerful and addicting drug.
Absolutely. I'm a progressive myself and I'm baffled at how little the ubiquity of porn comes up when we discuss, say, how the generation behind us is less comfortable with nudity in films. As a culture, at this point, we are almost oversexed in terms of visual stimulation. I think what people are craving is authenticity, sincerity, and vulnerability, which isn't the purpose of the vast majority of sex scenes in films. They're also more aware of and resistant to being manipulated and can tell when they're being pandered to, they're more sensitive about the exploitation of performers. All those are massive factors in how they view media. I don't believe for one second that they're becoming more "prudish". They've simply become jaded and more discerning.
Capitalism wants there to be as little distance between you and your money.
Having to walk to the store, chat with a stranger, going to a party, heading out for dinner locally, going for a hike or visit with friends of friends, bumping into your neighbour are all roadblocks to instant consumption/ payment
Yes to everything in this comment section but also, it can't be understated what the grifter culture has done to our young men. Not only are women becoming more independent, but they're also looking at the heterosexual dating pool and asking, why bother? Misogyny has always been a problem, but I don't think I'm alone in thinking it's gotten to the point where women would rather die alone than attempt to find love.
Yes you're right, perhaps I shouldn't word it that way. Many women are finding that they can find fulfillment in relationships that aren't romantic. Which isn't a bad thing.
Outside online echo chambers all of that is still a small minority. It's objectively never been easier to find a guy who will e.g. stay home and support your career if that's what you want. It's not that women's options are worse than 10 years ago, it's that women don't want them.
this is a great article. i think it was posted a few weeks ago but i love a re-post.
we are in the midst of a cosmic change of how we live, partner up, reproduce as well as how our families and societies are structured. this was accelerated with the invention of the "the pill" - changing the balance of power in hetero relationships and things have snowballed from there with acceptance of homosexual relationships, gender, as well as different ways of creating and having families. many of these changes are for the better but we are just on the back foot of adjusting.
one example of this is the "fun gap" that we're hearing about - how the young people don't want to have fun so bars, clubs, billiard places are closing. but clubs used to be where guys would go to meet potential partners...which people can now meet on the "apps" so many clubs have lost their primary reason to exist which, for some, this is not good news, but for others, it's great.
I think also that when I was young we went to clubs thinking that maybe if we were lucky we might meet a cool guy, but if nothing else we would have a great time dancing with friends. I have so many great memories and experiences from just random nights of clubbing. I have heard from my younger relatives that people don’t dance now because they are afraid of being recorded and mocked on social media. It is downright dystopian
As someone who met their wife through Tinder, I disagree, although I am obviously biased.
Especially for men (yes really), dating apps are a great supplement to meeting potential partners organically. When I was single, I met maybe only a few women with whom I would consider going on a date with each month. Of course, that might only lead to 1 or 2 (or often 0) dates per month. On Tinder, I could get that up to maybe 4 or 5 with only a few minutes per day of swiping a messaging. Huge ROI for my time.
The key was to get off the apps and meet IRL, which seems to confound many people. It drives me crazy hearing young people say, "I've been chatting with this person for months. It's going good," only to find out they've never met despite living close by.
Apps can't force you actually ask people out and meet them; they can only introduce you. Honestly, they are fantastic for that.
I think it really depends when you were online dating. Pre-COVID online dating felt easier, people were more engaged, and just willing to go out. But something shifted in online dating in the past couple of years
Fair. I did online dating from ~2012-2016, so it's possible it has changed a lot. I hear that a lot of functionality is locked behind paywalls now. I was lucky enough to never spent a dime on apps.
Then again, it was absolutely an uphill battle to actually get dates even then. From like 1000 swipes, I'd get ~20 matches; of those, only about 10 would reply, and maybe 1 to 2 would actually meet IRL. Got stood up a lot too.
My MO was to ask them out after no more than 10 messages; that's it. I had no patience for time-wasters who just wanted to chat.
IMHO, people still invest far too much time and resources early on.
You anecdote doesn't change shit. Good for you, I guess, but most people aren't happy with online dating, especially since the apps are made to upsell their premium tiers.
Why? If anything the fact that they have less competition should make them less predatory - the companies who are fighting hardest tend to do the shadiest shit.
Phones. 70% of relationships used to start between friends that had known each other for at least a year. People's numbers of friends have tanked in the past few decades and so has the amount of time people spend socializing as they spend more and more time alone. The math is simple. Dating app blind dates are not a substitute for the organic progression of relationships.
> In interviews, people kept saying they knew they ought to make time for romance, but then when would they see their friends or travel or exercise or get ahead at work?
This is pretty easily solved by going on dates to do stuff you were already planning on doing (either solo or with friends) and not going out of your way to do things you don't want (e.g., going to overpriced restaurants or events). Bonus: if you're doing things you like, you're going to be your best, most attractive self.
It's shocking how someone could think, "I'm going to meet this person I barely know at a pricey restaurant, just sit there for hours with nothing to do but talk, and worry about who's going to pick up the bill neither of us really want to pay," and then get upset that a "spark" somehow didn't develop.
That's a good idea in theory, but something tells me that if I offer a potential date to go for a hike or a bike ride she'll just think I'm a cheapskate.
As a woman who hikes and bikes, I would have thought those were great ways to get to know someone. I'd have been a lot more relaxed on a ride than sitting in a restaurant trying to make conversation. You already have something to talk about, and there's something else to pay attention to so neither of you feels like you're in a spotlight.
While I personally am fine with it, I have read that some women don’t like hikes as a first date (alone in woods with a stranger). As someone who frequently hikes I view it as an enjoyable pastime not being cheapskate!
A weird front-camera selfie is not ideal no, but then neither is texting someone the day after a dating event where they've probably met 30 or more dudes saying "Hey it's Jeff"
EliBadBrains | 23 hours ago
Well, part of it is exactly what the author mentions: a whole lot of grifters preying on fears of loneliness to get sad people in a room, tell them what they're lacking and selling it at a higher price point. But more simply, I think for the first time we live in an era where it's not only possible but socially acceptable to not be married, while being financially independent. So people are a whole lot pickier than they used to be, particularly women. I don't think it's a bad thing. I've known too many women jump into toxic relationships with men who treated them like dirt because they were afraid of being single.
SoGoesIt | 23 hours ago
I’ve noticed that it seems like a lot of those men who treat their wives/girlfriends like dirt are also settling for someone they don’t actually like that much, just so they don’t have to be alone.
I hear so many men bitch about their partners like being single isn’t an option.
EliBadBrains | 23 hours ago
That and usually they expect sex/labour out of them :/
Quagga_Resurrection | 21 hours ago
Yes! I never see anybody talk about this dynamic. Most men don't form very close bonds with friends and romantic relationships are their primary emotional connection, so a lot of men get and stay in unhappy romantic relationships just to stave off the crushing loneliness of being single. Currently, the only acceptable version of happily single for men is being a bachelor/player, and even that revolves around having sex with women.
It makes you wonder how different things would be if there was a wholesome, happy version of being happily single for men in the way that there is for women. For women, being single is about decentralizing men, empowerment, living life to the fullest, working on yourself, growing your career, engaging in hobbies, chosen family and girlfriends, et cetera. Even if it isn't literally that, the conoation is one of empowerment. It's what lets women walk away from relationships and dating and be more picky if they do want to date. Men deserve those things, too, both for their well-being and so they don't settle for relationships they aren't happy with.
notcompatible | 20 hours ago
This is a great point. I think unfortunately many men are raised with some toxic ideas of masculinity, namely that they have to be totally stoically self reliant and are not allowed to acknowledge their emotional needs or risk appearing weak.
I feel so fortunate my husband has a great group of male friends that can be a good example of men caring about and supporting each other for my son. I
Wide-Pop6050 | 20 hours ago
This is very interesting. I guess yeah there isn't an empowering version of a single man, it's always still focused on getting another girlfriend. For women part of the fun is being with your friends - and men don't seem to do that as much
m50d | 16 hours ago
It's not that men naturally don't do things with friends, it's that the spaces and organisations where they did so have been systematically destroyed. All the working mens' clubs and the like are gone.
sailorsalvador | 15 hours ago
Why do you think this is? From limited reading online, it seems most of these groups and clubs just had steadily declining membership as young men turned more to technology, finding these groups irrelevant or inconvenient, so most of them became financially insolvent. Perhaps as well increased real estate costs, increased expectations from employers (leading to less time for volunteers to contribute)?
HawkingRadiati0n | 17 hours ago
I wonder how many men don’t know how to take care of themselves / cook / do chores without domestic house labor in the form of a wife
ReverendDizzle | 22 hours ago
>But more simply, I think for the first time we live in an era where it's not only possible but socially acceptable to not be married, while being financially independent.
For the first time (in Western culture, at least), women don't need to marry to survive. Being male and having a job that can support a wife (and possibly children) is no longer sufficient.
I agree with you that it's not a bad thing.
macmcdonald | 20 hours ago
This. All these men coping but simply a Lot of Women live fulfilled lives and dont need to marry. Like a Lot of us are content being single and only getting in a relationship If we Love them\we Match. While men want a bangmaid and complain about the loneliness epidemic
lemonack | 15 hours ago
>for the first time we live in an era where it's not only possible but socially acceptable to not be married, while being financially independent.
It's been my theory for a while that marriage stats and birthrates are not "falling" so much as they're normalizing towards what they would have been all along if women had always had the rights and resources necessary to opt out.
ReverendDizzle | 23 hours ago
I think of all the things the author discusses, this single paragraph does the most to capture the primary problem:
>In interviews, people kept saying they knew they ought to make time for romance, but then when would they see their friends or travel or exercise or get ahead at work? Dating has always entailed some hardship, but it used to be the norm to find love in everyday life—at the office, at church, at a party. People didn’t need to choose what to step away from. Now many of the quirks of modern life have made meeting organically in person less likely. More people are tucked away at home, working remotely, streaming TV, and having food delivered to their door; approaching strangers feels fraught when so many of us are used to flirting via text with people who have already “liked” us. So we depend on the apps even as we resent them. Dating becomes another responsibility to squeeze in, “like you’re scheduling a job interview,” Sarah Boyle, a 29-year-old public defender in Chicago, told me. “Oh, let me pencil in this date for three weeks from now with this stranger from the internet.”
My daughter always asks me how I have so many interesting stories from my youth (and from the present, too, really).
It's because I grew up in a time when "living it up" meant going out. You met people. You experienced things. You gathered. I still try to do most things in person today and go to lots of formal and informal events with my wife, simply because that's what living is.
Sitting at home every day with your only communication with the outside world through social media and occasionally texting friends you hardly make time to see in person is not living.
When you do that, you're just running the clock out on your own existence. You don't meet people, you don't form networks of close and casual friendships, and if you're single, you're probably going to stay that way indefinitely.
Now we can talk about all the things that contribute to this situation. People have less disposable income. People work longer hours. Younger people are often pretty socially awkward because they've lived in a hyper-mediated social media world their entire lives and they're scared to take risks. Third places are few and far between (and even fewer are economical to access). Playing on your phone and wasting your life away is incredibly appealing in the moment.
It's not just simply "people don't go out!" yet at the same time... it is simply, people don't go out.
ToTheDeath84 | 21 hours ago
Not only do people just not go out anymore, many fear others when they do or treat them as expendable. Growing up under the panopticon of an extremely judgmental, social media-addled society makes people fear interaction with others. So many of us are pathologically afraid to interact with one another because we have a habit of thinking the other person is somehow the social media gender war boogeyman of the day. Many more are dismissive of others simply because they know they can find a replacement around the corner on a dating app, or in the inverse, dropping out of dating altogether because there’s no point when the impression is that everyone is just playing the field and no one actually cares for connection.
So much of it at the end of the day is paranoia and ego protection. The only way to find love is to go out and live. Opt out of the cynicism and give people a shot.
ReverendDizzle | 20 hours ago
It really can't be said enough. Growing up in a social media world where you feel like your peers are actively surveilling you and have the power to ruin your life on an international scale with a single video is... chilling. People joke about stuff like "kids don't party anymore! they don't even dance in clubs! What the hell?" but they're all terrified of getting Black Mirror cancelled for making a mistake in any context.
ToTheDeath84 | 18 hours ago
Can’t forget all the neurotic rules too. I remember when “not texting too quick” and the obligatory Instagram-stalking background check were such big deals back when I was still dating, I can’t imagine how bad it is now. That stuff really drives people to some bizarre routes that just screws their success at finding connection.
CarpeDiemMaybe | 20 hours ago
I think it’s a lesson a lot of people have to learn as I did when I first did study abroad two years ago in my bachelor’s, and was incredibly depressed and lonely. I used to think I had to wait around to be invited to go out and do things but after months of wallowing, I went fuck it and just initiated plans with people I’ve only met once or twice and it went pretty well. Learned a lot from that experience that you really have to be the one to go out there
m50d | 19 hours ago
IMO it's less that people aren't going out and more that they're no longer approaching each other for romance when they do. It used to be normal that people would flirt and men would hit on women in bars, in hobbies, at friend hangouts, even at work. Now we've made it that only creeps do that, maybe rightly, but we haven't really replaced it with anything except dates-scheduled-like-job-interviews.
poozemusings | 20 hours ago
lol it’s funny that the quote is from a public defender. We have an insane job and a uniquely awful time trying to date.
Available-Guava5515 | 20 hours ago
Not only does the lack of "third spaces" in our society contribute to that, I can't help but think the ubiquity of porn does, too. Why bother going out to get laid? Gooning out to free porn and sex toys is more convenient and doesn't require the vulnerability of approaching others in public. No risk of rejection, no challenging ingrained avoidant behaviors.
tenzindrolma | 16 hours ago
This is the answer and it surprises me the author didn’t mention it. There’s been a 90% rise in porn consumption since 2000. The average person encounters it at age 11. Its constant availability means sexual gratification with another person is less necessary and for many not necessary at all. Please note I’m a progressive and don’t believe porn is immoral. It’s just that humans aren’t designed to have 24/7 access to it, it’s a powerful and addicting drug.
Available-Guava5515 | 16 hours ago
Absolutely. I'm a progressive myself and I'm baffled at how little the ubiquity of porn comes up when we discuss, say, how the generation behind us is less comfortable with nudity in films. As a culture, at this point, we are almost oversexed in terms of visual stimulation. I think what people are craving is authenticity, sincerity, and vulnerability, which isn't the purpose of the vast majority of sex scenes in films. They're also more aware of and resistant to being manipulated and can tell when they're being pandered to, they're more sensitive about the exploitation of performers. All those are massive factors in how they view media. I don't believe for one second that they're becoming more "prudish". They've simply become jaded and more discerning.
pk666 | 20 hours ago
Capitalism wants there to be as little distance between you and your money.
Having to walk to the store, chat with a stranger, going to a party, heading out for dinner locally, going for a hike or visit with friends of friends, bumping into your neighbour are all roadblocks to instant consumption/ payment
This is by design.
Aggressive_Chuck | 19 hours ago
> People have less disposable income. People work longer hours.
Neither of those things are true.
Available-Guava5515 | 22 hours ago
Yes to everything in this comment section but also, it can't be understated what the grifter culture has done to our young men. Not only are women becoming more independent, but they're also looking at the heterosexual dating pool and asking, why bother? Misogyny has always been a problem, but I don't think I'm alone in thinking it's gotten to the point where women would rather die alone than attempt to find love.
lemonack | 18 hours ago
> "women would rather die alone than attempt to find love."
I mean, I will probably die without a spouse, but I have a thriving community of great friends. I don't think I'm going to die alone.
Available-Guava5515 | 18 hours ago
Yes you're right, perhaps I shouldn't word it that way. Many women are finding that they can find fulfillment in relationships that aren't romantic. Which isn't a bad thing.
m50d | 19 hours ago
Outside online echo chambers all of that is still a small minority. It's objectively never been easier to find a guy who will e.g. stay home and support your career if that's what you want. It's not that women's options are worse than 10 years ago, it's that women don't want them.
Available-Guava5515 | 18 hours ago
Ah, "it's all women's fault". What a compelling, not-at-all-asinine argument.
ETA: to the person below who blocked me like a coward, yes, our options are worse than 10 or 20 years ago.
eranam | 12 hours ago
You should address what they said instead of dismissing it haughtily.
Are women’s options worse than 10 years ago? 20 years ago?
[OP] flamehead243 | a day ago
Archive Link
Historical_Pair3057 | 22 hours ago
this is a great article. i think it was posted a few weeks ago but i love a re-post.
we are in the midst of a cosmic change of how we live, partner up, reproduce as well as how our families and societies are structured. this was accelerated with the invention of the "the pill" - changing the balance of power in hetero relationships and things have snowballed from there with acceptance of homosexual relationships, gender, as well as different ways of creating and having families. many of these changes are for the better but we are just on the back foot of adjusting.
one example of this is the "fun gap" that we're hearing about - how the young people don't want to have fun so bars, clubs, billiard places are closing. but clubs used to be where guys would go to meet potential partners...which people can now meet on the "apps" so many clubs have lost their primary reason to exist which, for some, this is not good news, but for others, it's great.
notcompatible | 19 hours ago
I think also that when I was young we went to clubs thinking that maybe if we were lucky we might meet a cool guy, but if nothing else we would have a great time dancing with friends. I have so many great memories and experiences from just random nights of clubbing. I have heard from my younger relatives that people don’t dance now because they are afraid of being recorded and mocked on social media. It is downright dystopian
jessek | 23 hours ago
All online dating stuff being owned by The Match Group can’t be helping.
twelvis | 19 hours ago
As someone who met their wife through Tinder, I disagree, although I am obviously biased.
Especially for men (yes really), dating apps are a great supplement to meeting potential partners organically. When I was single, I met maybe only a few women with whom I would consider going on a date with each month. Of course, that might only lead to 1 or 2 (or often 0) dates per month. On Tinder, I could get that up to maybe 4 or 5 with only a few minutes per day of swiping a messaging. Huge ROI for my time.
The key was to get off the apps and meet IRL, which seems to confound many people. It drives me crazy hearing young people say, "I've been chatting with this person for months. It's going good," only to find out they've never met despite living close by.
Apps can't force you actually ask people out and meet them; they can only introduce you. Honestly, they are fantastic for that.
JCAIA | 16 hours ago
I think it really depends when you were online dating. Pre-COVID online dating felt easier, people were more engaged, and just willing to go out. But something shifted in online dating in the past couple of years
twelvis | 15 hours ago
Fair. I did online dating from ~2012-2016, so it's possible it has changed a lot. I hear that a lot of functionality is locked behind paywalls now. I was lucky enough to never spent a dime on apps.
Then again, it was absolutely an uphill battle to actually get dates even then. From like 1000 swipes, I'd get ~20 matches; of those, only about 10 would reply, and maybe 1 to 2 would actually meet IRL. Got stood up a lot too.
My MO was to ask them out after no more than 10 messages; that's it. I had no patience for time-wasters who just wanted to chat.
IMHO, people still invest far too much time and resources early on.
jessek | 19 hours ago
You anecdote doesn't change shit. Good for you, I guess, but most people aren't happy with online dating, especially since the apps are made to upsell their premium tiers.
m50d | 17 hours ago
Why? If anything the fact that they have less competition should make them less predatory - the companies who are fighting hardest tend to do the shadiest shit.
jessek | 17 hours ago
That's not how economics work for any industry.
julry | 21 hours ago
Phones. 70% of relationships used to start between friends that had known each other for at least a year. People's numbers of friends have tanked in the past few decades and so has the amount of time people spend socializing as they spend more and more time alone. The math is simple. Dating app blind dates are not a substitute for the organic progression of relationships.
twelvis | 19 hours ago
> In interviews, people kept saying they knew they ought to make time for romance, but then when would they see their friends or travel or exercise or get ahead at work?
This is pretty easily solved by going on dates to do stuff you were already planning on doing (either solo or with friends) and not going out of your way to do things you don't want (e.g., going to overpriced restaurants or events). Bonus: if you're doing things you like, you're going to be your best, most attractive self.
It's shocking how someone could think, "I'm going to meet this person I barely know at a pricey restaurant, just sit there for hours with nothing to do but talk, and worry about who's going to pick up the bill neither of us really want to pay," and then get upset that a "spark" somehow didn't develop.
Vexth0rn | 18 hours ago
That's a good idea in theory, but something tells me that if I offer a potential date to go for a hike or a bike ride she'll just think I'm a cheapskate.
twelvis | 18 hours ago
> she'll just think I'm a cheapskate.
Good. Stop trying to impress people who only care about what you can provide them.
If someone didn't want to do outdoor activities with me, that was an automatic no for me. Plenty of people love doing outdoor activities for dates.
ImportantAlbatross | 17 hours ago
As a woman who hikes and bikes, I would have thought those were great ways to get to know someone. I'd have been a lot more relaxed on a ride than sitting in a restaurant trying to make conversation. You already have something to talk about, and there's something else to pay attention to so neither of you feels like you're in a spotlight.
Vexth0rn | 16 hours ago
That's reassuring to hear, thanks. I'll try it out when I gather enough determination to get back into dating.
drawingtreelines | 11 hours ago
While I personally am fine with it, I have read that some women don’t like hikes as a first date (alone in woods with a stranger). As someone who frequently hikes I view it as an enjoyable pastime not being cheapskate!
German_Merman | 15 hours ago
>I gave a few people my phone number, including one man who sent me a picture of his face the very next morning
...am I missing something here? If I gave a woman my number and she sent me a photo the next day I'd call that a win
PC-load-letter-wtf | 15 hours ago
Well, if it’s a cute or nice photo. It’d be weird to get a straight face selfie in the bathroom or something.
German_Merman | 14 hours ago
A weird front-camera selfie is not ideal no, but then neither is texting someone the day after a dating event where they've probably met 30 or more dudes saying "Hey it's Jeff"
DanoPinyon | 13 hours ago
Few social skills from what I can see.
wowadrow | 22 hours ago
Love as a concept is tricky and extremely subjective; add on cultural hang-ups and its a real mine field of an idea.
I personally think the Greeks views on the subject has alot of value.
HoldenCaulfield7 | 17 hours ago
Can someone link article without paywall
PC-load-letter-wtf | 15 hours ago
Google paywall remover and paste the link. I’d share but I am not going to read this one
No_Appearance_9486 | 20 hours ago
Deep sigh…