I found the breakdowns interesting, how we shift the pollution burden overseas to third world countries while claiming that our processes are "Green." We also ship materials all over the place before a final product is completed, what I don't quite understand is why we doing this is so much more cost efficient vs just doing it all closer to the source. When did shipping and manufacture costs get so low that sending over seas back and fourth on boats is more cost efficient?
When we had large enough boats, I would guess. It's very cheap to transport stuff across water because you're never expending fuel going uphill. I think it's less than $1 per kilogram for transpacific shipping.
Probably, I just don't think people know how much go into an item that they purchase. I remember when some of the brands I use to buy would brag about being made in the U.S. and then they went to assembled in the U.S. and now I am pretty sure some of the stuff has done more traveling than me.
It's counterintuitive, but shipping is the most efficient ways to move goods in terms of energy/fuel usage. It beats out trains which is the second most efficient way to transport goods.
It comes from the fact that there is very little resistance from water against the cargo ships and that resistance barely changes as you increase the amount of goods on the boat.
This has been well known for a long time. It's why a bunch of old nations have extensive canal systems. 1 or 2 donkeys/horses can move (literally) tons of goods on a canal boat.
The reason trains ended up booming later on is because the cost of building tracks is far lower than the cost of building and maintaining a canal.
So yes, these cargo ships are burning dirty bunker fuel, but really you should be more concerned about the semi trucks hauling 1 shipping container across the country or the next day air shipping.
True, definitely more concerned about the fuel being burned transporting over roads but it doesn't mean we aren't exporting raw materials over roads to be shipped overseas, then from country to country, to be processed and turned into final products then shipping it back and trucking it to warehouses. We try to state that our country has cut down on pollution over the years but we are not counting the fact we just exported our manufacturing to claim that. In all reality many people want to just blame China for the pollution and say we can't do anything about it. Truth is we caused the increase pollution in China, India, and many other countries.
So I do agree that there's a major issue with using import/export to pollute. No doubt about it, it's a problem that we use other nations for all our manufacturing to get around EPA rules.
That being said, both China and India (more-so China) have been rapidly improving in terms of pollution. China of 2026 isn't China of 2016.
It is, however, a reality that we can more cleanly produce products via outsourcing. The best example being solar panels and batteries. Because China has massively invested in the production of these products, the cleanest and best forms of these products end up coming from China. Batteries manufactured in the US are dirtier than Chinese manufactured batteries. Ditto for solar. And a lot of that is due to the fact that China has far bigger and more advanced factories for making those products than what we have in the US. The dirtiness of shipping isn't an issue.
India is a different matter. Their government is incompetent and most of their changes are a result of "we literally can't pollute more here" rather than any sort of government initiative to fix things.
Good points. How do you think the problem can be solved?
I always say having more trade barriers should be the consensus of the left and the right in a sane world. We currently live in an insane world and certain "leftists" think importing infinite Chinese goods will stop inflation (hint: it likely won't because several most important sources of inflation, namely fuel prices and housing prices, aren't going to be addressed by this). But insanity doesn't stop the real-world consequences and here we are.
My two cents - I think this isn’t just one problem, I think it’s a multitude. The stacking of individual incentives to cut corners and pursue profit at all costs means every step of every supply chain gives the opportunity for the people responsible for that step to externalize their costs. Fiduciary responsibility and stock price disincentivizes corporate responsibility for their product life cycle. My wife is really excited that she just got a pair of jeans from Target for $11 today - but with no true cost accounting, I am sure someone paid the price from the start to today. And when she’s done with them and they’re no longer repairable, they can’t even be recycled because of the stretch added to the cotton
I honestly think that we need to limit the goods we import and have some quality controls/standards in place that at least meet what we manufacturer. The downside is that implementation is going to cause prices to rise some, the up side is less being bought over and over or less landfill waste. In general I think that manufacturing has become one of those hot topics that everyone thinks it is easy to solve. I don't think it is easy but as we are forced to pay higher prices anyways, we shouldn't be taking a hit to quality. Would you rather buy something cheap that lasts 1 month or something a bit more expensive that lasts for years. Right now consumers have been chasing the lowest cost because we know even the expensive ones are set to break just as fast and in many cases it is what they can afford.
If you check my comment history you'll see I'm quite culturally conservative, which ironically also means that I agree strongly with the idea of some (not all) American progressives (who should probably be better known as small business-ists) that a world in which people live in walkable neighborhoods and walk to their local stores to buy not-so-cheap products with enough quality guarantee is definitely much more ideal than a world dominated by shein and temu. Which obviously requires strong government intervention and it's a price I'm willing to pay.
I consider myself more of a centrist libertarian, I am not for a larger government. I think that the government should keep its hands out of an open market, but over the years I have seen what happens. Unfortunately we have seen our country flooded with goods from countries that have questionable manufacturing practices and questionable human rights practices. At the same time, the brands that built America have been installing failure points into their products and locking them down with firmware, at some point people just won't be able to pay anymore and I see why so many cheap goods are being bought.
> and certain "leftists" think importing infinite Chinese goods will stop inflation
Who thinks this? Most of the leftists I know advocate for trade barriers to establish fair trade instead of allowing free trade in perpetuity regardless of the source.
[OP] xxDeadpooledxx | 23 hours ago
I found the breakdowns interesting, how we shift the pollution burden overseas to third world countries while claiming that our processes are "Green." We also ship materials all over the place before a final product is completed, what I don't quite understand is why we doing this is so much more cost efficient vs just doing it all closer to the source. When did shipping and manufacture costs get so low that sending over seas back and fourth on boats is more cost efficient?
lithiumdeuteride | 21 hours ago
When we had large enough boats, I would guess. It's very cheap to transport stuff across water because you're never expending fuel going uphill. I think it's less than $1 per kilogram for transpacific shipping.
[OP] xxDeadpooledxx | 19 hours ago
Probably, I just don't think people know how much go into an item that they purchase. I remember when some of the brands I use to buy would brag about being made in the U.S. and then they went to assembled in the U.S. and now I am pretty sure some of the stuff has done more traveling than me.
cogman10 | 4 hours ago
It's counterintuitive, but shipping is the most efficient ways to move goods in terms of energy/fuel usage. It beats out trains which is the second most efficient way to transport goods.
It comes from the fact that there is very little resistance from water against the cargo ships and that resistance barely changes as you increase the amount of goods on the boat.
This has been well known for a long time. It's why a bunch of old nations have extensive canal systems. 1 or 2 donkeys/horses can move (literally) tons of goods on a canal boat.
The reason trains ended up booming later on is because the cost of building tracks is far lower than the cost of building and maintaining a canal.
So yes, these cargo ships are burning dirty bunker fuel, but really you should be more concerned about the semi trucks hauling 1 shipping container across the country or the next day air shipping.
[OP] xxDeadpooledxx | 4 hours ago
True, definitely more concerned about the fuel being burned transporting over roads but it doesn't mean we aren't exporting raw materials over roads to be shipped overseas, then from country to country, to be processed and turned into final products then shipping it back and trucking it to warehouses. We try to state that our country has cut down on pollution over the years but we are not counting the fact we just exported our manufacturing to claim that. In all reality many people want to just blame China for the pollution and say we can't do anything about it. Truth is we caused the increase pollution in China, India, and many other countries.
cogman10 | 4 hours ago
So I do agree that there's a major issue with using import/export to pollute. No doubt about it, it's a problem that we use other nations for all our manufacturing to get around EPA rules.
That being said, both China and India (more-so China) have been rapidly improving in terms of pollution. China of 2026 isn't China of 2016.
It is, however, a reality that we can more cleanly produce products via outsourcing. The best example being solar panels and batteries. Because China has massively invested in the production of these products, the cleanest and best forms of these products end up coming from China. Batteries manufactured in the US are dirtier than Chinese manufactured batteries. Ditto for solar. And a lot of that is due to the fact that China has far bigger and more advanced factories for making those products than what we have in the US. The dirtiness of shipping isn't an issue.
India is a different matter. Their government is incompetent and most of their changes are a result of "we literally can't pollute more here" rather than any sort of government initiative to fix things.
RecognitionOld2763 | 19 hours ago
Good points. How do you think the problem can be solved?
I always say having more trade barriers should be the consensus of the left and the right in a sane world. We currently live in an insane world and certain "leftists" think importing infinite Chinese goods will stop inflation (hint: it likely won't because several most important sources of inflation, namely fuel prices and housing prices, aren't going to be addressed by this). But insanity doesn't stop the real-world consequences and here we are.
zjunk | 18 hours ago
My two cents - I think this isn’t just one problem, I think it’s a multitude. The stacking of individual incentives to cut corners and pursue profit at all costs means every step of every supply chain gives the opportunity for the people responsible for that step to externalize their costs. Fiduciary responsibility and stock price disincentivizes corporate responsibility for their product life cycle. My wife is really excited that she just got a pair of jeans from Target for $11 today - but with no true cost accounting, I am sure someone paid the price from the start to today. And when she’s done with them and they’re no longer repairable, they can’t even be recycled because of the stretch added to the cotton
[OP] xxDeadpooledxx | 19 hours ago
I honestly think that we need to limit the goods we import and have some quality controls/standards in place that at least meet what we manufacturer. The downside is that implementation is going to cause prices to rise some, the up side is less being bought over and over or less landfill waste. In general I think that manufacturing has become one of those hot topics that everyone thinks it is easy to solve. I don't think it is easy but as we are forced to pay higher prices anyways, we shouldn't be taking a hit to quality. Would you rather buy something cheap that lasts 1 month or something a bit more expensive that lasts for years. Right now consumers have been chasing the lowest cost because we know even the expensive ones are set to break just as fast and in many cases it is what they can afford.
RecognitionOld2763 | 18 hours ago
If you check my comment history you'll see I'm quite culturally conservative, which ironically also means that I agree strongly with the idea of some (not all) American progressives (who should probably be better known as small business-ists) that a world in which people live in walkable neighborhoods and walk to their local stores to buy not-so-cheap products with enough quality guarantee is definitely much more ideal than a world dominated by shein and temu. Which obviously requires strong government intervention and it's a price I'm willing to pay.
[OP] xxDeadpooledxx | 18 hours ago
I consider myself more of a centrist libertarian, I am not for a larger government. I think that the government should keep its hands out of an open market, but over the years I have seen what happens. Unfortunately we have seen our country flooded with goods from countries that have questionable manufacturing practices and questionable human rights practices. At the same time, the brands that built America have been installing failure points into their products and locking them down with firmware, at some point people just won't be able to pay anymore and I see why so many cheap goods are being bought.
SapientTrashFire | 28 minutes ago
> and certain "leftists" think importing infinite Chinese goods will stop inflation
Who thinks this? Most of the leftists I know advocate for trade barriers to establish fair trade instead of allowing free trade in perpetuity regardless of the source.