Not that surprising when you consider, as the paper does, the explosion of very meaningful traits such as the ability to digest lactose and various anti-malaria adaptations e.g. Sickle Cell and the Duffy-null mutation.
It's just controversial for obvious reasons. The notion that human groups may have meaningfully evolved in different ways over the past 10,000 years, and may still be evolving, is an unpopular one on both ends of the political spectrum.
The reason no one wants to talk is that these discussions are always co-opted by racists wanting to affirm their beliefs, regardless of the underlying science. Reich in particular is borderline deliberate about attracting those sorts with his lab's research, because of how badly he chooses to handle the topic and terminology of race.
People keep wondering why trust in scientific findings is in free fall. A big part of it is because many scientists have become comfortable lying when they feel it’s for a noble cause.
I really don't care if the people around me have physiological differences from me. It would be wonderful to explore that and such differences. But as OP pointed out the discussion gets co-opted by people who would kill others over physiological differences. How is such a viewpoint conducive to a peaceful society where millions of people with physiological differences exist?
For good reason, the wider community isn't able to have a productive conversation about it. I wouldn't even call that a noble reason, but a necessary one, unless you would be okay with inviting people that want you dead into discussion on scientific consensus.
> people who would kill others over physiological differences
Most of them just want to enforce borders. And then the dogma that we are all the same is co-opted by people who would see their ethnic group wiped out, as they are told that they don't even exist except as a meaningless social construct, and their desire for ethnic self-preservation is therefore illegitimate - there is nothing to preserve!
>And then the dogma that we are all the same is co-opted by people who would see their ethnic group wiped out
Are you referring to certain people? People sympathetic to Palestinians? I mean yeah obviously it's wrong to preach equity for me but not for thee, but I'm not really going to get into a pissing match about Israel/Palestine, sorry, because that's deflection from my point.
So there are two choices here:
1) Allow scientific discussion on physiological differences or avoid it. Particulary, physiological differences that don't necessarily effect health outcomes but also performance metrics.
2) Do not allow such discussion, and declare an axiom: normalize physiological differences across homo sapiens.
You're right to call the latter dogma, although not in the pejorative sense.
You brought this infamous conflict up to propose that because option two can be used by bad actors, then we should not normalize option two, and freely discuss physiological differences between people.
If you are of a group that has physiological differences scientifically proven to be inferior, you are immediately in an outgroup. You will experience discrimination. Because few (and I'm being generous, perhaps no one truly) can talk about physiological differences without building and holding prejudice. Pragmatically that is just not the case. It's why endless ethnic conflicts exist.
I simply cannot formulate an argument for why this should ever be allowed. It sounds like a horror show if you're on the receiving end. A horror show minorities of many types live through every day.
To lay "ground rules" so that we do not scrutinize our fellow brothers and sisters on unalienable traits is an ethical imperative to prevent us tearing each other apart. This then leaves only one line, the line where people are more than happy to discriminate based on these unalienable traits, and I think it's perfectly acceptable to ostracize them since they encourage ripping each other's throats out, willingly or as a useful peon.
Nobody talks about "performance metrics" when distinguishing between Sumatran and Siberian tigers. What happens instead is humans try to preserve their populations and distinctions. "It's all the same" is corrosive to preservation.
The problem is that if you don't stick to truth and make an attempt at objectivity, others will step in to fill the void. This is how you sow division and undermine trust in science.
I'm having a very hard time understanding a society where research is openly conducted on innate physiological differences between people, and bad actors don't use this official research to practice open discrimination. The lesser of the two evils is to draw a line and tell people to just accept these differences.
Scientists are not lying. Reich is notable in his field and no-one is disputing his genetic research.
What scientists are wary of is how any discussion in the field gets jumped on and twisted into ammunition to reinforce racist beliefs, whether the science actually supports this or not.
“What scientists are wary of is how any discussion in the field gets jumped on and twisted into ammunition to reinforce racist beliefs”
Yet nothing ruined the reputation of the scientific establishment more in recent time than their tendency to change their behaviours and adapt their beliefs for political motives
>Reich in particular is borderline deliberate about attracting those sorts with his lab's research, because of how badly he chooses to handle the topic and terminology of race.
Sorry, do you have any examples? His views that I've read [0, 1] are scientifically rigorous and terminologically precise, deftly navigating the politics that some consider extremely controversial. To wit, one of my favorite passages from [1], which deals specifically with terminology:
But “ancestry” is not a euphemism, nor is it synonymous with “race.” Instead, the term is born of an urgent need to come up with a precise language to discuss genetic differences among people at a time when scientific developments have finally provided the tools to detect them. It is now undeniable that there are nontrivial average genetic differences across populations in multiple traits, and the race vocabulary is too ill-defined and too loaded with historical baggage to be helpful. If we continue to use it we will not be able to escape the current debate, which is mired in an argument between two indefensible positions. On the one side there are beliefs about the nature of the differences that are grounded in bigotry and have little basis in reality. On the other side there is the idea that any biological differences among populations are so modest that as a matter of social policy they can be ignored and papered over. It is time to move on from this paralyzing false dichotomy and to figure out what the genome is actually telling us.
This particular passage is on p. 253 of [1], but everything in Chapter 11 ("The Genomics of Race and Identity," pp. 247-273) is well worth the read.
It's unfortunate that the URL happens to be buzzfeed, but there was an open letter to Reich by other academics about his terminology in the book you're quoting [0]. The short of it is that social categorizations we believe in like race intersect with genetics in a very complicated way. Reich is a world-class expert in genetics. He simply commits the same error as many other other experts in discounting the complexity of subjects he's adjacent to, but not directly an expert in.
I get that this is a high standard to hold him to (and I sure as heck don't meet it myself), but he should do better given his visibility in public discourse.
The biggest complication is that the current notion of human race is largely based on skin color (with a few adjacent physical traits), which has very little to do with population genetics. In particular, black skin color is a dominant genetic trait, meaning that you can easily have individuals and even entire subpopulations that are black skinned, but have much more genetic similarity to traditionally white skinned populations (being descendents of a few black skinned individuals who married into a larger white skinned population) - while they would still be categorized as "black" in terms of race. Conversely, genetically isolated black skinned populations are also often lumped together as "the black race".
Another major complexity is that some races are defined more by genealogic ancestry than by genetic ancestry or easily identifiable physical characteristics. For example, people are normally considered Jewish if they have a Jewish mother. This leads to many genetically disparate subpopulations being lumped together as a Jewish race.
The crux of that letter is the "need to recognize that meaningful patterns of genetic and biological variation exist in our species that are not racial." This is true. However, this does not mean that there aren't also meaningful patterns of genetic and biological variation that do stratify according to ancestry (not race!). The letter tries to handwave this away, claiming that "[f]or several decades billions of dollars have been spent trying to find such differences. The result has been a preponderance of negative findings despite intrepid efforts to collect DNA data on millions of individuals in the hope of finding even the tiniest signals of difference." This is simply not true, as studies like the subject of this discussion demonstrate.
The letter also states that "[t]he public should not cede the power to define race to scientists who themselves are not trained to understand the social contexts that shape the formation of this fraught category." Also true! This is exactly why Reich explicitly avoids discussing "races" but rather populations and ancestries, which are rigorously defined strictly in terms of genetics. With respect to population structures and ancestry, Reich is indeed an expert.
I'll add that very few of the signatories of that letter have any experience, let alone expertise in genetics. Here are the first few:
Jonathan Kahn, James E. Kelley Professor of Law, Mitchell Hamline School of Law
Alondra Nelson, Professor of Sociology and Gender Studies, Columbia University; President, Social Science Research Council
Joseph L. Graves Jr., Associate Dean for Research & Professor of Biological Sciences, Fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, Section G: Biological Sciences, Joint School of Nanoscience & Nanoengineering, North Carolina A&T State University, UNC Greensboro
Sarah Abel, Postdoc, Department of Anthropology, University of Iceland
Ruha Benjamin, Associate Professor, Department of African American Studies, Princeton University
Sarah Blacker, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Max Planck Institute for the History of Science, Berlin
Catherine Bliss, Associate Professor, Social and Behavioral Sciences, UC San Francisco
Out of the 67 signatories, I counted approximately 5 who might have sufficient genetics expertise to offer a meaningful scientific counterpoint to Reich's work (this is being charitable, as I included titles like "Professor of Biological Sciences," which is no guarantee.) The rest were in fields like anthropology, sociology, law, and history.
Yes, because it's not an argument the letter is making. Everyone can name a meaningful genetic patterns of genetic variation that follow ancestry like lactase persistence. The argument is in the second paragraph:
But his skillfulness with ancient and contemporary DNA should not be confused with a mastery of the cultural, political, and biological meanings of human groups.
It's not an argument that Reich gets the science wrong, so other geneticists being on the list is neither here nor there. When he says things like:
But as a geneticist I also know that it is simply no longer possible to ignore average genetic differences among “races.”
in NYT opinion pieces, it's that he's not understanding how terminology interacts with public discourse. The next paragraph goes on to use the unclear term "west african", not exactly a great example of careful language either.
The list is mainly people in fields that deal with these things, as you'd expect.
>Yes, because it's not an argument the letter is making.
It literally is though. The full quote from the Buzzfeed piece is:
Reich’s claim that we need to prepare for genetic evidence of racial differences in behavior or health ignores the trajectory of modern genetics. For several decades billions of dollars have been spent trying to find such differences. The result has been a preponderance of negative findings despite intrepid efforts to collect DNA data on millions of individuals in the hope of finding even the tiniest signals of difference.
>The argument is in the second paragraph:
But his skillfulness with ancient and contemporary DNA should not be confused with a mastery of the cultural, political, and biological meanings of human groups.
Reich never purports to make cultural or political arguments, just biological ones.
>When he says things like:
But as a geneticist I also know that it is simply no longer possible to ignore average genetic differences among “races.”
Note that he put "races" in quotes. The point he was making here is that sometimes genetic ancestries can intersect quite well with traditional notions of "race" [0]. But often times they do not, especially in the case of admixed populations [1].
I know, but we both see how a random member of the public could easily read it. My argument, after all, is that the way he communicates is sloppier than it should be for the subject matter and prone to public misunderstandings.
> "need to recognize that meaningful patterns of genetic and biological variation exist in our species that are not racial." This is true.
There's an implicit assertion in that statement, that we're currently not recognizing that meaningful patterns and variation exists. But that's nonsense. We are all perfectly aware that some groups digest lactose better, some are less vulnerable to skin cancer, some drop like flies to common tropical diseases, some completely dominate long distance running competition etc.
So there's got to be some particular differences he's referring to that he thinks are papered over. He should spell out which.
> but he should do better given his visibility in public discourse.
Why? He presented real verified science. Anyone who is offended or does not like it ... well, too bad... the world does not care. Facts are facts. He does not owe you or anyone else comfort. He presents cold hard truth, and sometimes truth hurts. Tough.
I haven't read much from Reich, so I don't know his position. But I've understood that the current best practice in human genetics is to explicitly justify the population descriptors chosen for each study, rather than using any fixed set of descriptors given from the outside.
There are two main types of genetic descriptors: those based on genetic similarity and those based on ancestry groups. Genetic similarity is quantitative, and individual samples often have multiple labels attached to them. Ancestry groups are discrete categories based on quantitative measures. If it's appropriate to use descriptors based on genetic ancestry groups in a study, it's usually also appropriate to drop samples that don't fit neatly in any single group.
Sometimes it's more appropriate to use descriptors based on environmental factors, such as ethnicity or geography. Environmental descriptors tend to be correlated with genetic descriptors, but they are not the same.
"To supercharge the search, Reich, Ali Akbari, a computational geneticist at Harvard Medical School, and their colleagues amassed the largest-ever collection of genomic data from ancient humans — from a total of 15,836 individuals from western Eurasia — including more than 10,000 newly sequenced genomes."
Without commenting on the content of this sentence or article, I will say that it is refreshing to see sentences like this in the wild after being regularly and constantly subjected to LLM slop.
Is there any species, other than humans, that is found all across the globe (i.e. geographically separated), and has not differentiated into subspecies? Wolves, elephants, tigers, bears, and foxes have all been categorized into multiple subspecies each, distinct but able to interbreed.
This distinction seems more arbitrary over time. Growing up I was taught different species couldn’t interbreed. But what about Neanderthal and Sapiens?
I don't think you could have chosen a worse example. Dogs are themselves a subspecies, and are split into many different breeds, of wildly different character and physiology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog#Taxonomy
The definition of what constitutes a species is a human construct.
Two bird populations living in the same locale but divided by a mountain range therefore not naturally breeding with each other would classify as a different species, even if they could breed with each other.
> Two bird populations living in the same locale but divided by a mountain range therefore not naturally breeding with each other would classify as a different species, even if they could breed with each other.
Really? I thought the requirements for species classification were: (1) must be able to reproduce and (2) offspring must be fertile.
the reproductive incompatability, is based on physiological range.
in general, there are multi organizational levels of reproductive incompatability.
in this case, the geographic distance, orogenic blockade, and ecological confounds of arctic conditions preclude easy mingling of U.arctos x U. maritimus.
There are a lot of subtleties. Ring species are a particularly fun one: you can have a population that live around some natural obstacle (like a large body of water) where individuals can breed successfully with individuals near to them but not with ones further way (like directly across the barrier), in a continuum of variation.
Sometimes it’s hard to objectively tell whether two animals don’t appear to reproduce because they are unable genetically, or technically able still but behaviorally unwilling in normal natural circumstances, or we don’t know but we just haven’t observed it for that particular combo, etc
Thought experiment. Three populations, A, B, and C, divided geographically along a line. Individuals from group A can breed successfully with those from B but not with those from C. Individuals from group C can breed successfully with those from B but not A.
How many species are there? This is why the term "species" can never be entirely objective. I remember the eureka moment I had when I finally understood this (admittedly somewhat simple) point.
It can even be more subtle, it's entirely possible that some rare members of A can C breed, and some members of C and B would not be able to breed. The "fertility" relation can only be decided between two individuals, not groups. Group-level fertility is a statistical average of individual fertility.
That said, I don't think that means that "species" is entirely subjective or meaningless.
my understanding of what classifies something as being a part of the same species is the fact that they can make children that are viable to have children themselves
horses and donkeys can breed to make mules, but the mules usually cant reproduce, this is the same with tigons and ligers but sometimes the females are viable
so if they can produce children that can produce children, they're the same species. where this line is blurred, so is the species line. geographical barriers have nothing to do with it.
> my understanding of what classifies something as being a part of the same species is the fact that they can make children that are viable to have children themselves
things are a bit more complicated than that, because having fertile offspring is not a transitive property.
Ring species: population A can mate with B, B with C, C with D, and D with E, but A and E cannot mate, even though they are part of the same continuous chain.
Ensatina eschscholtzii salamanders in California exhibit this non-transitive behavior. Populations at the ends of the coastal ranges can interbreed with their neighboring populations, but where they meet in the south, the "ends" of the ring do not interbreed.
if you consider that geographic barrier is an environment of immediate lethality, or infecundity, that is physiological incompatability, and would be a speciation.
if you consider that geographic barrier, simply precludes, interaction between individuals, then you will have founder effect, thus one population will be genetically decended from a sample of the larger population.
Seems to me, that we divide other animals based on some of the most minor of phenotypic expressions. The slight coloration of a bird’s crest, shape of some lizard’s nose.
Yet with Homo sapiens we seem to be allergic to the idea that our drastic swings in physical attributes could possibly qualify as a different species (we obviously call them “races”). But they plainly diverged from each other due to geographic and reproductive isolation and adaptation to environments. Which is precisely what causes species to diverge into new ones.
Are we supposed to pretend that Africans DONT have black skin due an adaptation to their environment?
Do other animals get divided into races? I know dogs have “breeds” and we don’t consider those species. But I don’t hear about “races” in other animals.
> Seems to me, that we divide other animals based on some of the most minor of phenotypic expressions
It might seem like that to you, but you'd be wrong. Taxonomy prioritizes genetic distance and reproductive isolation over superficial visual traits that humans happen to find striking. While phenotypic variations like skin color or facial structure are highly visible, they represent a microscopic fraction of the overall genome and do not indicate the deep divergence required to define a new species.
And from a genetic standpoint, Homo sapiens is remarkably homogeneous. Two humans from opposite sides of the planet are generally more genetically similar to each other than two chimpanzees from the same patch of forest. Traits like skin color (an adaptation for UV protection) or nose shape (an adaptation for humidity/temperature) are rapid evolutionary adjustments. They change quickly on an evolutionary timescale without requiring a fundamental split in the species' lineage.
In contrast to other animals, because humans never stopped breeding with one another, we never had the chance to "drift" far enough apart to become different species. Geographic distance in humans has historically acted as a filter, not a wall.
So there's your answer. Because of this unique genetic homogeneity (and not because of some imagined woke censorship), speaking of human subspecies would be scientifically mistaken.
> Taxonomy prioritizes genetic distance [..] Two humans from opposite sides of the planet are generally more genetically similar to each other than two chimpanzees from the same patch of forest.
Do you have a source? I've tried looking in the past, but couldn't find good "genetic distance" metrics that could be compared between humans and other species.
> The definition of what constitutes a species is a human construct
That makes it sound like the boundaries between species are arbitrary, but they are not. Sure, there are corner cases where things become debatable, but those are the rare exceptions, not the rule.
> Two bird populations living in the same locale but divided by a mountain range therefore not naturally breeding with each other would classify as a different species, even if they could breed with each other.
This is only the case if the separation has been there long enough for the two groups to develop distinct genetic markers or physical traits (like the beak shape or plumage mentioned in the original comment). The deeper reason they are classified as different species it that they are de-facto on different evolutionary trajectories. Which doesn't happen for human populations because historically, whatever obstacle divide us, we find a way to get around it.
I mean people won't like the idea but that's not my point; what you describe variety in superficial traits while maintaining common traits
Applied to humans; skin color, eyes, dwarfism, hypertrichosis... can still interbreed
When it comes to categorization and taxonomy in leaky abstractions like languages the boundaries get a bit hand wavy and usually land on whatever fits the prevailing social desirability bias of the day
The same selection pressures that produced the variety of "superficial" traits also act on "non-superficial" traits - nature does not recognize this distinction.
Not many. Part of why we are like this is extreme mobility. Even before modern times we were always good at getting around and seem to have a desire to roam. Or at least enough of us do to mix up those gene pools.
If that were true before modern times, distinctions in appearance never could have developed.
Edit as reply because "pOsTiNg tOo FaSt":
> Before modern times there was enough mixing to keep speciation from occurring but not enough to fully homogenize.
I see. Is there some quantitative genetic similarity measure, by which it was determined that it was worth categorizing foxes and wolves and bears into distinct subspecies/breeds/whatever taxonomical categories, but not humans? I assume that's what your "speciation did not occur [enough to merit taxonomical distinction]" is based on.
I.e. by what measure are a Pygmy and a Norwegian more similar than a Sumatran and a Siberian tiger [1]?
It’s not like those scientific definitions are particularly consistent or stable, though. In a large part it’s still a matter of convention when it comes to non human species as well
Science, or you, can make up whatever definitions they wish. The question is not if a definition is "true", but what it's useful for.
Sure, you - or scientific authorities, whoever they might be - can declare that there are multiple modern human species. The question is, what are you intending to use that definition for?
That applies to other branches of the tree of life, too. There's not some objective genetic distance measure which says what's a species and what is not. It can vary widely on different parts of the tree. But it's driven by pragmatism - sensible biologists will not waste time arguing whether some mushrooms should be one species or two, if they otherwise agree on the facts.
If you can't say plainly and clearly what the purpose of your delineation is, and it's in your own part of the tree, of course people are going to have their suspicions.
Do humans not fit the standards for being broken into multiple subspecies? I assumed that they would but "the science community" is too scared of the implications when idiots learn about it.
I look at a sumatran tiger and a Siberian tiger and I see a lot less variance than I see when I look at
a pygmy, a Norwegian, an sentinel islander, and a han Chinese person
>Do humans not fit the standards for being broken into multiple subspecies?
No. Multiple human subspecies did once exist (examples being Neanderthals, Denisovans, Homo Erectus, and Homo Floresiensis) but only our species, Homo Sapiens, remains (with traces of Neanderthal DNA so there was some interbreeding.) However race is a cultural and social construct. Different human races are not different human subspecies. A Pygmy, a Norwegian, a Sentinel Islander, and a Han Chinese person are all the same species. The superficial variations in average height, skin color, etc. do not vary enough to constitute species differentiation - humans share 99.9% of their DNA, and the vast majority of genetic variation exists within populations (in other words, within "races") and not between them.
The percent difference between genomes of species is one of those tricky measures that doesn't really give good intuition. I find it much more useful to think in terms of the time since two species shared a common ancestor.
e.g. For humans and chimps, that's several million years. For Sumatran and Siberian tigers, it's around a hundred thousand years.
Out of africa remains defensible but more and more people will come to the conclusion that the chinese hyporhesis of the multiregional origin is somewhat true so we will get a hybrid i guess
The problem is that "Out of Africa" is an uninformative name. The outflow from Africa was well underway 100k years ago or even 200k years ago, and there was no inherent break between that ongoing outflow and what happened 40k years ago when (inasmuch as we can reconstruct today) behaviorally modern rather than 'archaic' humans began to migrate out, which we now call "Out of Africa". So it's hard to even tell apart the "recent Out of Africa" and the "multiregional" hypotheses in a way that might help settle a debate.
So not that far away since modern humans began splitting up into separate subgroups outside of Africa? Of course there have been quite a bit of intermixing since then (more so in Eurasia than the more isolated parts of the world before the modern times, though)
> the vast majority of genetic variation exists within populations
This particular argument (I am not talking about anything else) always looked to me as "inkblot defense" (Cephalopods muddy water to defend themselves).
Genome is discrete. A single nucleotide polymorphism can have far-reaching consequences. So it's a bit like arguing that this collection of pentagons is not statistically different from this collection of hexagons because radius variation within collections is greater than between collections.
One day I've got into trouble by pointing to another genetic adaptation (EPAS1 SNPs) rather than the poster child of genetic differences: an SNP in the 6th codon of the β-globin gene. But that's another story.
Well humans and chimpanzees share almost 99% of their DNA despite being quite distant relative so that number is somewhat deceptive. Not disagreeing with the overall point of course
> However race is a cultural and social construct. [...] The superficial variations in average height, skin color, etc. do not vary enough to constitute species differentiation
Species is also a social construct. Calling race a social construct isn't the persuasive argument people seem to assume.
> the vast majority of genetic variation exists within populations (in other words, within "races") and not between them.
This is is a fallacious argument, because there is no such thing as the "average Norwegian" and the "average Pygmy", and so you cannot even construct a meaningful sentence like "the average Norwegian and the average Pygmy are more alike than any individual Norwegian is to any other Norwegian". People need to stop using this silly argument.
It's the established scientific consensus. Obviously it isn't convincing to racists, but no argument would be given that racists don't approach the subject in good faith to begin with.
I think you're being too pedantic, though, because the statement "the average Norwegian and the average Pygmy are more alike than any individual Norwegian is to any other Norwegian" is perfectly sensible within the context of this thread and relative to the supposition that genetic variability between human populations is a valid basis to justify a biological definition of race and further classifying human races as subspecies. That species is also a social construct is true, and you seem to think that it disproves the premise, but it really doesn't because species is a social construct in the sense that all scientific classification is a social construct. But when people say that race is a social construct, they mean it was created to justify white supremacy, slavery and colonialism, and that (unlike species) it serves no useful scientific purpose. You're intentionally omitting necessary context to create a false equivalence between race and species.
Here are some actual scientifically credentialed papers and statements supporting the thesis that race has no biological basis. I doubt anyone will bother reading them but here they are just for the record. Further reading is easy to find.
> But when people say that race is a social construct, they mean it was created to justify white supremacy, slavery and colonialism
Yes, the modern context of what we call race today is inherently linked to notions like limpieza de sangre and casta in post-conquest Latin America - the true prototypical example of structural racism, where for several centuries and over several generations a "white" appearance was conflated with a socially elite status and a "racialized" appearance with poverty and marginalization. The Moors in Medieval, Renaissance and early modern Europe were of African origin, and sometimes even had what we would now call a Sub-Saharan appearance, but they were not considered "Black" in racial terms because that was not a notion that existed in that specific milieu.
So was the fact that ulcers weren't caused by bacteria. "Established scientific consensus" is another argument people need to stop using.
> You're intentionally omitting necessary context to create a false equivalence between race and species
No, I'm not equating race and species, I'm refuting the argument that race being a social construct makes it meaningless or scientifically useless by pointing out that species is also a social construct while being meaningful and scientifically useful. Therefore the argument that it's a social construct is a red herring.
> But when people say that race is a social construct, they mean it was created to justify white supremacy, slavery and colonialism, and that (unlike species) it serves no useful scientific purpose.
So you agree that calling it a social construct is completely besides the point, and people are not saying what they mean and merely polluting discussions with pointless red herrings.
Now whether race serves a useful purpose is highly debatable. There are plenty of statistical associations with race that are used to this day, eg. race as a risk factor in sickle cell anemia. If your argument is that we usually have better classifications than race in many circumstances, then sure, but note that this still doesn't prove the intended point that race classifications are useless, which is a claim that they never have any use.
Edit:
> the statement "the average Norwegian and the average Pygmy are more alike than any individual Norwegian is to any other Norwegian" is perfectly sensible
Just want to be clear that this is still a fundamental category error. These are completely unlike measures and equating them properly yields different conclusions, eg. using pairwise genetic distance measures. See the paper, "Human Genetic Diversity: Lewontin's Fallacy" for where this misunderstanding originated.
My understanding is that humans have very limited genetic diversity compared to most other animals, because of the population bottlenecks we've been through. And further, that diversity is mostly between individuals, not between groups. The distinction is easy to see in cats vs dogs: they both have similar overall genetic diversity but two Chihuahuas have virtually all the same genes (the small angry ones) while two tabby cats are more distinct. The two cats have different combinations of big/small nice/mean smart/dumb, but the genes average out to the same "typical" kind of cat in both cases.
Because humans get around so much, and because we think interesting-looking people are hot, the diversity is spread pretty broadly across the whole population. The average european person and the average east asian person are a little bit different genetically, but way less different than any two real europeans or two east-asians are to one another.
In short, the distributions of individuals overlap so much that the trendlines are pretty close to useless. And historically speaking, the people who tried to make a hard distinction out of those trendlines had awful motives.
> The average european person and the average east asian person are a little bit different genetically, but way less different than any two real europeans or two east-asians are to one another.
This is always touted as an “racism-is-not-only-immoral-it-is-scientifically-wrong” argument, but it is a fallacy.
Example: The average height (a trait with very high heritability) of Dutch men is 6’0 feet (183 cm) and the average height of Philippine men is 5’4 (163 cm). This means the height difference between these two groups is 20 cm. And it is obvious that the difference inside one group MUST be larger, for example there are 6’4 Dutch basketballers but also certainly Dutch 5’2 horse riding jockeys.
And depending on context both of these insights are useful. For example if you manage a basketball team it is much more effective to consider people as individuals, simplified you should hire very tall people (regardless if they are Dutch or Philippines) who can throw precisely a ball into a basket. But the diversity between population groups points to real information too! If you sell shoes to both countries you shouldn’t provide the same one-size-fits-all and assume to catch the same percentage of the market.
Plus the overlap in one metric is expanding into separable clusters the more dimensions are used:
Take a Dutch and Philippine who have the exact same height: Their own respective brothers (heck, even twins) will not be the same perfect match, instead being a bit taller or smaller. But the more variables you consider (weight, muscle composition, leg length, head radius, hand size, form of earlobe .. etc) you will find that holistically seen two brothers truly are much more similar to each other than to a stranger.
None of what you said refutes the fact that genetic diversity is just as different within two people of the same ethnicity as it is between different ethnicities.
You listed a handful of traits from a handful of genes. And from that you make an argument about relative distributions of entire genomes of entire populations. Do you realize the fact that brothers are genetically similar compared to a stranger in no way implies the similarity or difference of entire populations?
Even the traits you mention are just a handful of physical traits. There are about 20,000 protein encoding genes and 180,000 non-encoding. Protein encoding genes code for the structures in our body. The other 180,000 genes code for all kind of dynamics -- the rna that turns genes to proteins, how proteins are expressed in different cells to make them different cells, how relative expression levels change in response to external stimulus, etc. So, the set of genes to consider is clearly all 200,000 genes and not just the 20,000 protein encoding genes much less the handful of protein encoding genes responsible for something like eye color.
Unfortunately for racists but fortunately for the vast majority, the world is a great big melting pot with all the different ethnicities producing all kinds of variety. So much that the blend complexity long ago surpassed any tiny set of visible trait uniformity.
I honestly don't know how so many people fall for these simplistic illogical racist arguments. But it makes me happy to know that racists are about 200,000 years to late to shove the entire human race into tiny little boxes based on physical traits.
> None of what you said refutes the fact that genetic diversity is just as different within two people of the same ethnicity as it is between different ethnicities.
Note, however, that this does not imply there are not significant genetic differences between different ethnicities. Differences that are selected for will be cloaked in a sea of non-significant differences.
Definitely. I'm not saying there aren't average differences. We literally see different physical traits. But physical traits are a minute fraction of all the complexity that is the human genome. And all of those physical traits are always mixing fluidly between and within groups.
My point is, there are clearly wide swaths of genetic traits that we have in common with any other ethnicity compared to what may be the average of a broad distribution. Humans are inherently mosaic.
Personally I believe it's why our species is so resilient. But that's a stronger statement, so just a belief.
Yes, and there are also wide swaths of genetic traits that we have in common with other species. But it would be senseless to propose we're the same as chimpanzees. The point is it doesn't take much in the way of genetic differences, as a fraction of the total genome, to make a very large difference in phenotype.
Well, if the phenotype or trait due to any random gene was the differentiation between race, species, or anything else besides that specific trait, you might have a point in support of OP. But unfortunately for racist ducks there are so many differences, and similarities, that have nothing to do with hair color or height. Any given swath is it's own mosaic of combinations, no matter what we label it.
A few hundred years ago Europeans were very much shorter too. The Chinese have increased in height within just the last couple of generations. In both cases this isn't because their genes changed, it's because their diets changed. Diet also explains the difference between the Netherlands and the Philippines.
The height thing is a bad example. Generally in genetics you like to focus on things without so many confounding factors. That's why the article focuses on attributes like baldness, MS, and lactose intolerance.
I ve read this in a breathless ("help my ideology is under attack by reality") voice and it took a page away fro interesting discussions.
My pet theory is that the species inherited a loop deformation by default from our ancestors, defacto splitting the species planetwide into three subspecieses. One adapted to peace, one adapted to strife, one adapted to all out carnage. The obvious benefits of various adaptions of what we perceive as mental sickness, but what are actual adaptions to the loop communicating themselves. In this small moment where one (peacetime) insanity is uprooted to replace with a (wartime) insanity, might we be free in the anti gravity of the situation to discuss complex answers before the yikes of you silence us for the rest of the cycle? Thanks for the gag in all these years, that helped and did nothing.
However, with a population of 8 billion and a genome of 3.1 billion base pairs, the entire space of single nucleotide mutations is produced in just a few generations. So any such useful single nucleotide mutation is going to become available regardless of past bottlenecks.
Good points. On the bottleneck hypothesis, a new study came out in 2024 arguing that the 900kya population loss was, if not a statistical artifact, more likely a genetic sweep or genome takeover via adaptive advantage. Whatever might be the truth in this case, it is true that human evolution, especially on the cultural plane, has gone through a bunch of major leaps which have had the effect of one small population eventually dominating the global genetic pool. Basically, a winner-takes-all dynamic. One example would be the Proto Indo-Europeans who have replaced male lineages throughout Europe and beyond. There are other such examples as well, like Neanderthal extinction.
genetic bottleneck does not imply population loss.
it is about unavailability of large gene pool.
this can be population loss, but can also, be a loss of compatability between individuals, due to genomic modification, such as but not limited to chromosomal fusion.
So have humans. There are white, red, black, brown, yellow people, and they live in their own happy places on the planet, except for the fact that we now move them around by plane, boat and goat.
Many researchers now refer to neanderthals as Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, a subspecies of modern humans.
It doesn’t get talked about much because it’s a sideshow without an easy resolution, but the question of modern and archaic human speciation is far from a settled problem and many of the species formerly considered to be separate are now often lumped in as subspecies.
First, I like your username. Second, I think it may be a problem of ebb and flow of scientific discourse (shifts in how we apply the definition of species) more than reflecting underlying reality, which - as you said - has no easy resolution.
It’s not the ebb and flow so much as avoiding pointless academic bikeshedding. A bunch of very competitive explorer archaeologists named the separate species based on morphological skeletal differences decades before we even knew about DNA and now as the evidence accumulates, the question has gone from hard facts to a debate what is a species vs subspecies. Nobody really cares about the latter because it makes no functional difference to the research, so they let the problem lie until new interesting evidence presents itself. We know the species could interbreed, which is what matters to us now, not whether their taxa is three words or two (which is what this boils down to, some people write one way, some people the other and both know what each other is saying)
Every time I read about ancient DNA work, it's about Reich's research. Can anyone expert in the field shed light on that? He certainly seems to have a successful research group. And he's a good communicator, I got a lot out of his 2018 book. Who else should I be reading or reading about?
also , independent confirmation of observations, are gold for research, however needless repetition of effort is not.
thus when someone is prolific,or uncannily mad about a topic it tends to be dominated by that persons submissions, and often any other contributors are on that lead researchers team.
funny how racists on twitter havent learnt that skin color is a function of natural selection, how do we get this message to them in a non offensive yet informational enough way to change their perceptions of colored people
We finally observed signals of selection for combinations of alleles that today are associated with three correlated behavioural traits: scores on intelligence tests (increasing 0.74±0.12), household income (increasing 1.12±0.12) and years of schooling (increasing 0.63±0.13). These signals are all highly polygenic, and we have to drop 449–1,056 loci for the signals to become non-significant(Extended Data Fig.10). The signals are largely driven by selection before approximately 2,000 years , after which tends towards zero.
That's the part that the speech police is afraid of.
> That's the part that the speech police is afraid of.
Why? This article just focuses on changes in West Eurasia (probably because that's what they had data for), but the bulk of changes that resulted in behavioral modernity surely occurred in Africa - where the genetic variability for them to occur was and still is far greater than elsewhere - and plausibly similar changes occurred in other regions such as Central Eurasia, Southeast Eurasia etc. West Eurasia was a backwater.
> and plausibly similar changes occurred in other regions
Sure. But did ALL regions change? And did they change to the same destination? When the environments differed so much? It is easy to see how answers (or the questions themselves) could be politically contentious.
A_D_E_P_T | a day ago
It's just controversial for obvious reasons. The notion that human groups may have meaningfully evolved in different ways over the past 10,000 years, and may still be evolving, is an unpopular one on both ends of the political spectrum.
AlotOfReading | a day ago
nostromo | a day ago
People keep wondering why trust in scientific findings is in free fall. A big part of it is because many scientists have become comfortable lying when they feel it’s for a noble cause.
orsorna | a day ago
For good reason, the wider community isn't able to have a productive conversation about it. I wouldn't even call that a noble reason, but a necessary one, unless you would be okay with inviting people that want you dead into discussion on scientific consensus.
like_any_other | a day ago
Most of them just want to enforce borders. And then the dogma that we are all the same is co-opted by people who would see their ethnic group wiped out, as they are told that they don't even exist except as a meaningless social construct, and their desire for ethnic self-preservation is therefore illegitimate - there is nothing to preserve!
The same rhetoric targeting Palestinians: https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/perpetuating-the-myth-of-a-p...
orsorna | 22 hours ago
Are you referring to certain people? People sympathetic to Palestinians? I mean yeah obviously it's wrong to preach equity for me but not for thee, but I'm not really going to get into a pissing match about Israel/Palestine, sorry, because that's deflection from my point.
So there are two choices here:
1) Allow scientific discussion on physiological differences or avoid it. Particulary, physiological differences that don't necessarily effect health outcomes but also performance metrics.
2) Do not allow such discussion, and declare an axiom: normalize physiological differences across homo sapiens.
You're right to call the latter dogma, although not in the pejorative sense.
You brought this infamous conflict up to propose that because option two can be used by bad actors, then we should not normalize option two, and freely discuss physiological differences between people.
If you are of a group that has physiological differences scientifically proven to be inferior, you are immediately in an outgroup. You will experience discrimination. Because few (and I'm being generous, perhaps no one truly) can talk about physiological differences without building and holding prejudice. Pragmatically that is just not the case. It's why endless ethnic conflicts exist.
I simply cannot formulate an argument for why this should ever be allowed. It sounds like a horror show if you're on the receiving end. A horror show minorities of many types live through every day.
To lay "ground rules" so that we do not scrutinize our fellow brothers and sisters on unalienable traits is an ethical imperative to prevent us tearing each other apart. This then leaves only one line, the line where people are more than happy to discriminate based on these unalienable traits, and I think it's perfectly acceptable to ostracize them since they encourage ripping each other's throats out, willingly or as a useful peon.
like_any_other | 12 hours ago
orsorna | 11 hours ago
coderenegade | 22 hours ago
orsorna | 22 hours ago
teamonkey | 15 hours ago
What scientists are wary of is how any discussion in the field gets jumped on and twisted into ammunition to reinforce racist beliefs, whether the science actually supports this or not.
Nesco | 14 hours ago
Yet nothing ruined the reputation of the scientific establishment more in recent time than their tendency to change their behaviours and adapt their beliefs for political motives
teamonkey | 14 hours ago
MontyCarloHall | a day ago
Sorry, do you have any examples? His views that I've read [0, 1] are scientifically rigorous and terminologically precise, deftly navigating the politics that some consider extremely controversial. To wit, one of my favorite passages from [1], which deals specifically with terminology:
This particular passage is on p. 253 of [1], but everything in Chapter 11 ("The Genomics of Race and Identity," pp. 247-273) is well worth the read.[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/opinion/sunday/genetics-r...
[1] https://sackett.net/reich_who_we_are_and_how_we_got_here.pdf
AlotOfReading | 23 hours ago
I get that this is a high standard to hold him to (and I sure as heck don't meet it myself), but he should do better given his visibility in public discourse.
[0] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/bfopinion/race-genetics...
dmitrygr | 23 hours ago
Please explain the complications. Use scientific terms only.
tsimionescu | 13 hours ago
Another major complexity is that some races are defined more by genealogic ancestry than by genetic ancestry or easily identifiable physical characteristics. For example, people are normally considered Jewish if they have a Jewish mother. This leads to many genetically disparate subpopulations being lumped together as a Jewish race.
MontyCarloHall | 23 hours ago
The letter also states that "[t]he public should not cede the power to define race to scientists who themselves are not trained to understand the social contexts that shape the formation of this fraught category." Also true! This is exactly why Reich explicitly avoids discussing "races" but rather populations and ancestries, which are rigorously defined strictly in terms of genetics. With respect to population structures and ancestry, Reich is indeed an expert.
I'll add that very few of the signatories of that letter have any experience, let alone expertise in genetics. Here are the first few:
Out of the 67 signatories, I counted approximately 5 who might have sufficient genetics expertise to offer a meaningful scientific counterpoint to Reich's work (this is being charitable, as I included titles like "Professor of Biological Sciences," which is no guarantee.) The rest were in fields like anthropology, sociology, law, and history.AlotOfReading | 22 hours ago
The list is mainly people in fields that deal with these things, as you'd expect.
MontyCarloHall | 22 hours ago
It literally is though. The full quote from the Buzzfeed piece is:
>The argument is in the second paragraph: Reich never purports to make cultural or political arguments, just biological ones.>When he says things like: But as a geneticist I also know that it is simply no longer possible to ignore average genetic differences among “races.”
Note that he put "races" in quotes. The point he was making here is that sometimes genetic ancestries can intersect quite well with traditional notions of "race" [0]. But often times they do not, especially in the case of admixed populations [1].
[0] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-32325-w/figures/1
[1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12859-019-2680-1/...
AlotOfReading | 22 hours ago
vintermann | 7 hours ago
There's an implicit assertion in that statement, that we're currently not recognizing that meaningful patterns and variation exists. But that's nonsense. We are all perfectly aware that some groups digest lactose better, some are less vulnerable to skin cancer, some drop like flies to common tropical diseases, some completely dominate long distance running competition etc.
So there's got to be some particular differences he's referring to that he thinks are papered over. He should spell out which.
GorbachevyChase | 22 hours ago
dmitrygr | 20 hours ago
Why? He presented real verified science. Anyone who is offended or does not like it ... well, too bad... the world does not care. Facts are facts. He does not owe you or anyone else comfort. He presents cold hard truth, and sometimes truth hurts. Tough.
timmg | 11 hours ago
It is horribly argued. It's mostly poor analogies and non-sequiturs. It's no wonder Buzzfeed was the only place they could get to publish it.
jltsiren | 22 hours ago
There are two main types of genetic descriptors: those based on genetic similarity and those based on ancestry groups. Genetic similarity is quantitative, and individual samples often have multiple labels attached to them. Ancestry groups are discrete categories based on quantitative measures. If it's appropriate to use descriptors based on genetic ancestry groups in a study, it's usually also appropriate to drop samples that don't fit neatly in any single group.
Sometimes it's more appropriate to use descriptors based on environmental factors, such as ethnicity or geography. Environmental descriptors tend to be correlated with genetic descriptors, but they are not the same.
naasking | 12 hours ago
So? People need to stop undermining science and openly sharing information because some people have bad ideas.
phainopepla2 | a day ago
burnto | a day ago
jetrink | a day ago
FunHearing3443 | a day ago
mohamedkoubaa | a day ago
Without commenting on the content of this sentence or article, I will say that it is refreshing to see sentences like this in the wild after being regularly and constantly subjected to LLM slop.
sho_hn | a day ago
nefarious_ends | a day ago
like_any_other | a day ago
meroes | a day ago
paulryanrogers | a day ago
hooo | a day ago
chrisweekly | 22 hours ago
https://youtu.be/dNLLXZgN4Mc?si=SUhHZ2uzMZ7jgejI
like_any_other | a day ago
idiotsecant | a day ago
erichocean | a day ago
greazy | a day ago
Two bird populations living in the same locale but divided by a mountain range therefore not naturally breeding with each other would classify as a different species, even if they could breed with each other.
So your question is hard to answer.
nelox | 23 hours ago
greazy | 22 hours ago
John7878781 | 20 hours ago
Really? I thought the requirements for species classification were: (1) must be able to reproduce and (2) offspring must be fertile.
Is it less objective than that?
Archelaos | 20 hours ago
rolph | 5 hours ago
in general, there are multi organizational levels of reproductive incompatability.
in this case, the geographic distance, orogenic blockade, and ecological confounds of arctic conditions preclude easy mingling of U.arctos x U. maritimus.
whycombinetor | 19 hours ago
rcxdude | 16 hours ago
lemonberry | 13 hours ago
This is really interesting, thank you. I've never heard of "ring species" before.
joshuahedlund | 13 hours ago
bluebarbet | 13 hours ago
How many species are there? This is why the term "species" can never be entirely objective. I remember the eureka moment I had when I finally understood this (admittedly somewhat simple) point.
naasking | 12 hours ago
That said, I don't think that means that "species" is entirely subjective or meaningless.
lukan | 11 hours ago
usrnm | 10 hours ago
afpx | 11 hours ago
stainablesteel | 11 hours ago
horses and donkeys can breed to make mules, but the mules usually cant reproduce, this is the same with tigons and ligers but sometimes the females are viable
so if they can produce children that can produce children, they're the same species. where this line is blurred, so is the species line. geographical barriers have nothing to do with it.
Vaphell | 10 hours ago
things are a bit more complicated than that, because having fertile offspring is not a transitive property. Ring species: population A can mate with B, B with C, C with D, and D with E, but A and E cannot mate, even though they are part of the same continuous chain.
Ensatina eschscholtzii salamanders in California exhibit this non-transitive behavior. Populations at the ends of the coastal ranges can interbreed with their neighboring populations, but where they meet in the south, the "ends" of the ring do not interbreed.
rolph | 5 hours ago
if you consider that geographic barrier, simply precludes, interaction between individuals, then you will have founder effect, thus one population will be genetically decended from a sample of the larger population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect
matt-attack | 9 hours ago
Yet with Homo sapiens we seem to be allergic to the idea that our drastic swings in physical attributes could possibly qualify as a different species (we obviously call them “races”). But they plainly diverged from each other due to geographic and reproductive isolation and adaptation to environments. Which is precisely what causes species to diverge into new ones.
Are we supposed to pretend that Africans DONT have black skin due an adaptation to their environment?
Do other animals get divided into races? I know dogs have “breeds” and we don’t consider those species. But I don’t hear about “races” in other animals.
pegasus | 8 hours ago
It might seem like that to you, but you'd be wrong. Taxonomy prioritizes genetic distance and reproductive isolation over superficial visual traits that humans happen to find striking. While phenotypic variations like skin color or facial structure are highly visible, they represent a microscopic fraction of the overall genome and do not indicate the deep divergence required to define a new species.
And from a genetic standpoint, Homo sapiens is remarkably homogeneous. Two humans from opposite sides of the planet are generally more genetically similar to each other than two chimpanzees from the same patch of forest. Traits like skin color (an adaptation for UV protection) or nose shape (an adaptation for humidity/temperature) are rapid evolutionary adjustments. They change quickly on an evolutionary timescale without requiring a fundamental split in the species' lineage.
In contrast to other animals, because humans never stopped breeding with one another, we never had the chance to "drift" far enough apart to become different species. Geographic distance in humans has historically acted as a filter, not a wall.
So there's your answer. Because of this unique genetic homogeneity (and not because of some imagined woke censorship), speaking of human subspecies would be scientifically mistaken.
like_any_other | 43 minutes ago
Do you have a source? I've tried looking in the past, but couldn't find good "genetic distance" metrics that could be compared between humans and other species.
pegasus | 8 hours ago
That makes it sound like the boundaries between species are arbitrary, but they are not. Sure, there are corner cases where things become debatable, but those are the rare exceptions, not the rule.
> Two bird populations living in the same locale but divided by a mountain range therefore not naturally breeding with each other would classify as a different species, even if they could breed with each other.
This is only the case if the separation has been there long enough for the two groups to develop distinct genetic markers or physical traits (like the beak shape or plumage mentioned in the original comment). The deeper reason they are classified as different species it that they are de-facto on different evolutionary trajectories. Which doesn't happen for human populations because historically, whatever obstacle divide us, we find a way to get around it.
rolph | 6 hours ago
speciation is reproductive incompatability.
geographic isolation is more like founder effect than speciation.
renewiltord | a day ago
yabutlivnWoods | a day ago
I mean people won't like the idea but that's not my point; what you describe variety in superficial traits while maintaining common traits
Applied to humans; skin color, eyes, dwarfism, hypertrichosis... can still interbreed
When it comes to categorization and taxonomy in leaky abstractions like languages the boundaries get a bit hand wavy and usually land on whatever fits the prevailing social desirability bias of the day
like_any_other | 23 hours ago
The same selection pressures that produced the variety of "superficial" traits also act on "non-superficial" traits - nature does not recognize this distinction.
yabutlivnWoods | 23 hours ago
What is a subspecies and species is random gibberish of the living humans
api | 23 hours ago
like_any_other | 23 hours ago
Edit as reply because "pOsTiNg tOo FaSt":
> Before modern times there was enough mixing to keep speciation from occurring but not enough to fully homogenize.
I see. Is there some quantitative genetic similarity measure, by which it was determined that it was worth categorizing foxes and wolves and bears into distinct subspecies/breeds/whatever taxonomical categories, but not humans? I assume that's what your "speciation did not occur [enough to merit taxonomical distinction]" is based on.
I.e. by what measure are a Pygmy and a Norwegian more similar than a Sumatran and a Siberian tiger [1]?
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47812581
api | 23 hours ago
If our modern world continues for thousands of years eventually our differences will start to dissolve.
showerst | 23 hours ago
It’s not quite all across the globe but pretty close, and is so adapted that it is not considered invasive any more in most places.
chrisweekly | 22 hours ago
cwmoore | 15 hours ago
SloppyDrive | 23 hours ago
The generous idea is that "subspecies" does not provide an anthropologist a useful lens to look at humanity, therefore we do not classify.
The alternative is that "subspecies" is too close to "race" for scientists, publishers, and funding bodies to touch, so its deliberately ignored.
verisimi | 20 hours ago
vjjsejj | 15 hours ago
vintermann | 7 hours ago
Sure, you - or scientific authorities, whoever they might be - can declare that there are multiple modern human species. The question is, what are you intending to use that definition for?
That applies to other branches of the tree of life, too. There's not some objective genetic distance measure which says what's a species and what is not. It can vary widely on different parts of the tree. But it's driven by pragmatism - sensible biologists will not waste time arguing whether some mushrooms should be one species or two, if they otherwise agree on the facts.
If you can't say plainly and clearly what the purpose of your delineation is, and it's in your own part of the tree, of course people are going to have their suspicions.
scotty79 | 7 hours ago
IncreasePosts | 23 hours ago
I look at a sumatran tiger and a Siberian tiger and I see a lot less variance than I see when I look at a pygmy, a Norwegian, an sentinel islander, and a han Chinese person
krapp | 22 hours ago
No. Multiple human subspecies did once exist (examples being Neanderthals, Denisovans, Homo Erectus, and Homo Floresiensis) but only our species, Homo Sapiens, remains (with traces of Neanderthal DNA so there was some interbreeding.) However race is a cultural and social construct. Different human races are not different human subspecies. A Pygmy, a Norwegian, a Sentinel Islander, and a Han Chinese person are all the same species. The superficial variations in average height, skin color, etc. do not vary enough to constitute species differentiation - humans share 99.9% of their DNA, and the vast majority of genetic variation exists within populations (in other words, within "races") and not between them.
MrBuddyCasino | 20 hours ago
beloch | 20 hours ago
The percent difference between genomes of species is one of those tricky measures that doesn't really give good intuition. I find it much more useful to think in terms of the time since two species shared a common ancestor.
e.g. For humans and chimps, that's several million years. For Sumatran and Siberian tigers, it's around a hundred thousand years.
IncreasePosts | 19 hours ago
vjjsejj | 15 hours ago
MrBuddyCasino | 14 hours ago
iknowimarat | 14 hours ago
zozbot234 | 12 hours ago
vjjsejj | 15 hours ago
So not that far away since modern humans began splitting up into separate subgroups outside of Africa? Of course there have been quite a bit of intermixing since then (more so in Eurasia than the more isolated parts of the world before the modern times, though)
scotty79 | 13 hours ago
red75prime | 19 hours ago
This particular argument (I am not talking about anything else) always looked to me as "inkblot defense" (Cephalopods muddy water to defend themselves).
Genome is discrete. A single nucleotide polymorphism can have far-reaching consequences. So it's a bit like arguing that this collection of pentagons is not statistically different from this collection of hexagons because radius variation within collections is greater than between collections.
One day I've got into trouble by pointing to another genetic adaptation (EPAS1 SNPs) rather than the poster child of genetic differences: an SNP in the 6th codon of the β-globin gene. But that's another story.
scotty79 | 13 hours ago
vjjsejj | 15 hours ago
scotty79 | 13 hours ago
But who cares about such divisions if we all can interbreed?
naasking | 12 hours ago
Species is also a social construct. Calling race a social construct isn't the persuasive argument people seem to assume.
> the vast majority of genetic variation exists within populations (in other words, within "races") and not between them.
This is is a fallacious argument, because there is no such thing as the "average Norwegian" and the "average Pygmy", and so you cannot even construct a meaningful sentence like "the average Norwegian and the average Pygmy are more alike than any individual Norwegian is to any other Norwegian". People need to stop using this silly argument.
krapp | 9 hours ago
I think you're being too pedantic, though, because the statement "the average Norwegian and the average Pygmy are more alike than any individual Norwegian is to any other Norwegian" is perfectly sensible within the context of this thread and relative to the supposition that genetic variability between human populations is a valid basis to justify a biological definition of race and further classifying human races as subspecies. That species is also a social construct is true, and you seem to think that it disproves the premise, but it really doesn't because species is a social construct in the sense that all scientific classification is a social construct. But when people say that race is a social construct, they mean it was created to justify white supremacy, slavery and colonialism, and that (unlike species) it serves no useful scientific purpose. You're intentionally omitting necessary context to create a false equivalence between race and species.
Here are some actual scientifically credentialed papers and statements supporting the thesis that race has no biological basis. I doubt anyone will bother reading them but here they are just for the record. Further reading is easy to find.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8604262/
https://bioanth.org/about/aaba-statement-on-race-racism/
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/evolutionary-human-s...
https://www.sapiens.org/biology/is-race-real/
zozbot234 | 9 hours ago
Yes, the modern context of what we call race today is inherently linked to notions like limpieza de sangre and casta in post-conquest Latin America - the true prototypical example of structural racism, where for several centuries and over several generations a "white" appearance was conflated with a socially elite status and a "racialized" appearance with poverty and marginalization. The Moors in Medieval, Renaissance and early modern Europe were of African origin, and sometimes even had what we would now call a Sub-Saharan appearance, but they were not considered "Black" in racial terms because that was not a notion that existed in that specific milieu.
naasking | 3 hours ago
So was the fact that ulcers weren't caused by bacteria. "Established scientific consensus" is another argument people need to stop using.
> You're intentionally omitting necessary context to create a false equivalence between race and species
No, I'm not equating race and species, I'm refuting the argument that race being a social construct makes it meaningless or scientifically useless by pointing out that species is also a social construct while being meaningful and scientifically useful. Therefore the argument that it's a social construct is a red herring.
> But when people say that race is a social construct, they mean it was created to justify white supremacy, slavery and colonialism, and that (unlike species) it serves no useful scientific purpose.
So you agree that calling it a social construct is completely besides the point, and people are not saying what they mean and merely polluting discussions with pointless red herrings.
Now whether race serves a useful purpose is highly debatable. There are plenty of statistical associations with race that are used to this day, eg. race as a risk factor in sickle cell anemia. If your argument is that we usually have better classifications than race in many circumstances, then sure, but note that this still doesn't prove the intended point that race classifications are useless, which is a claim that they never have any use.
Edit: > the statement "the average Norwegian and the average Pygmy are more alike than any individual Norwegian is to any other Norwegian" is perfectly sensible
Just want to be clear that this is still a fundamental category error. These are completely unlike measures and equating them properly yields different conclusions, eg. using pairwise genetic distance measures. See the paper, "Human Genetic Diversity: Lewontin's Fallacy" for where this misunderstanding originated.
samsartor | 19 hours ago
Because humans get around so much, and because we think interesting-looking people are hot, the diversity is spread pretty broadly across the whole population. The average european person and the average east asian person are a little bit different genetically, but way less different than any two real europeans or two east-asians are to one another.
In short, the distributions of individuals overlap so much that the trendlines are pretty close to useless. And historically speaking, the people who tried to make a hard distinction out of those trendlines had awful motives.
ralfd | 13 hours ago
This is always touted as an “racism-is-not-only-immoral-it-is-scientifically-wrong” argument, but it is a fallacy.
Example: The average height (a trait with very high heritability) of Dutch men is 6’0 feet (183 cm) and the average height of Philippine men is 5’4 (163 cm). This means the height difference between these two groups is 20 cm. And it is obvious that the difference inside one group MUST be larger, for example there are 6’4 Dutch basketballers but also certainly Dutch 5’2 horse riding jockeys.
And depending on context both of these insights are useful. For example if you manage a basketball team it is much more effective to consider people as individuals, simplified you should hire very tall people (regardless if they are Dutch or Philippines) who can throw precisely a ball into a basket. But the diversity between population groups points to real information too! If you sell shoes to both countries you shouldn’t provide the same one-size-fits-all and assume to catch the same percentage of the market.
Plus the overlap in one metric is expanding into separable clusters the more dimensions are used:
https://i.sstatic.net/r6cWd.jpg
Take a Dutch and Philippine who have the exact same height: Their own respective brothers (heck, even twins) will not be the same perfect match, instead being a bit taller or smaller. But the more variables you consider (weight, muscle composition, leg length, head radius, hand size, form of earlobe .. etc) you will find that holistically seen two brothers truly are much more similar to each other than to a stranger.
daveguy | 10 hours ago
You listed a handful of traits from a handful of genes. And from that you make an argument about relative distributions of entire genomes of entire populations. Do you realize the fact that brothers are genetically similar compared to a stranger in no way implies the similarity or difference of entire populations?
Even the traits you mention are just a handful of physical traits. There are about 20,000 protein encoding genes and 180,000 non-encoding. Protein encoding genes code for the structures in our body. The other 180,000 genes code for all kind of dynamics -- the rna that turns genes to proteins, how proteins are expressed in different cells to make them different cells, how relative expression levels change in response to external stimulus, etc. So, the set of genes to consider is clearly all 200,000 genes and not just the 20,000 protein encoding genes much less the handful of protein encoding genes responsible for something like eye color.
Unfortunately for racists but fortunately for the vast majority, the world is a great big melting pot with all the different ethnicities producing all kinds of variety. So much that the blend complexity long ago surpassed any tiny set of visible trait uniformity.
I honestly don't know how so many people fall for these simplistic illogical racist arguments. But it makes me happy to know that racists are about 200,000 years to late to shove the entire human race into tiny little boxes based on physical traits.
pfdietz | 10 hours ago
Note, however, that this does not imply there are not significant genetic differences between different ethnicities. Differences that are selected for will be cloaked in a sea of non-significant differences.
daveguy | 9 hours ago
My point is, there are clearly wide swaths of genetic traits that we have in common with any other ethnicity compared to what may be the average of a broad distribution. Humans are inherently mosaic.
Personally I believe it's why our species is so resilient. But that's a stronger statement, so just a belief.
pfdietz | 8 hours ago
daveguy | 7 hours ago
masfuerte | 10 hours ago
bilbo0s | 10 hours ago
cineticdaffodil | 11 hours ago
My pet theory is that the species inherited a loop deformation by default from our ancestors, defacto splitting the species planetwide into three subspecieses. One adapted to peace, one adapted to strife, one adapted to all out carnage. The obvious benefits of various adaptions of what we perceive as mental sickness, but what are actual adaptions to the loop communicating themselves. In this small moment where one (peacetime) insanity is uprooted to replace with a (wartime) insanity, might we be free in the anti gravity of the situation to discuss complex answers before the yikes of you silence us for the rest of the cycle? Thanks for the gag in all these years, that helped and did nothing.
pfdietz | 10 hours ago
pegasus | 8 hours ago
rolph | 7 hours ago
genetic bottleneck does not imply population loss.
it is about unavailability of large gene pool.
this can be population loss, but can also, be a loss of compatability between individuals, due to genomic modification, such as but not limited to chromosomal fusion.
https://www.johnhawks.net/p/when-did-human-chromosome-2-fuse
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertsonian_translocation
abc123abc123 | 14 hours ago
liveoneggs | 13 hours ago
throwup238 | 12 hours ago
It doesn’t get talked about much because it’s a sideshow without an easy resolution, but the question of modern and archaic human speciation is far from a settled problem and many of the species formerly considered to be separate are now often lumped in as subspecies.
summa_tech | 11 hours ago
throwup238 | 11 hours ago
usrnm | 9 hours ago
What do you mean "now", they definitely were called that 30 years ago, when I first learned about them
NelsonMinar | 23 hours ago
rolph | 22 hours ago
https://www.johnhawks.net/p/when-did-human-chromosome-2-fuse
also , independent confirmation of observations, are gold for research, however needless repetition of effort is not.
thus when someone is prolific,or uncannily mad about a topic it tends to be dominated by that persons submissions, and often any other contributors are on that lead researchers team.
vivzkestrel | 22 hours ago
Rekindle8090 | 20 hours ago
Mikhail_K | 14 hours ago
We finally observed signals of selection for combinations of alleles that today are associated with three correlated behavioural traits: scores on intelligence tests (increasing 0.74±0.12), household income (increasing 1.12±0.12) and years of schooling (increasing 0.63±0.13). These signals are all highly polygenic, and we have to drop 449–1,056 loci for the signals to become non-significant(Extended Data Fig.10). The signals are largely driven by selection before approximately 2,000 years , after which tends towards zero.
That's the part that the speech police is afraid of.
zozbot234 | 13 hours ago
Why? This article just focuses on changes in West Eurasia (probably because that's what they had data for), but the bulk of changes that resulted in behavioral modernity surely occurred in Africa - where the genetic variability for them to occur was and still is far greater than elsewhere - and plausibly similar changes occurred in other regions such as Central Eurasia, Southeast Eurasia etc. West Eurasia was a backwater.
ralfd | 12 hours ago
Sure. But did ALL regions change? And did they change to the same destination? When the environments differed so much? It is easy to see how answers (or the questions themselves) could be politically contentious.
Mikhail_K | 10 hours ago
> surely occurred in Africa
"Surely" without examining the actual evidence is almost surely wrong.
Henchman21 | 2 hours ago