Democrats main problem is an unwillingness to lie to everybody.
their second biggest problem is not having billionaires buy up all of social media and the news in order to carry water for said lies.
we hit critical mass of stupid in this country and now people want to hear simple solutions to their complex problems.
we will not be pulling out of this spiral anytime soon.
Democrats might do well in the next election and then do well in the presidential election after that and then the following midterm election will be a bloodbath because Democrats weren't able to solve all of the world's problems and fix all of America's problems within that 18 month window.
There is a political theory that the American body politic views conservatives as the default and only when they do awful things do they get reprimanded by the populace electing a democrat and then when people feel and though the nation is stabilized they reinstall the GOP which does awful things and rinse and repeat. We need to get people to view the GOP as the bad party and the democrats as the default for good American governance.
How do we do that when the oligarchs bought all the media up for their preferred fascist party?
"Your guilt may convince you to vote Democrat, but what you really want is a coldhearted Republican to lower taxes, brutalize crimimals, and rule you like a king."
I think about that a lot. It seems like it's just... true. That Americans view conservatives as terrible yet vote them in anyway, as if they had no choice.
That's literally what I was told as a kid, that conservatives want things to remain the same. And it took me time to realize that conservatives are reactionary. They want the world to revert to a past that never existed and cannot exist.
True, telling and insane. The last three presidents -- Biden, Obama and Clinton -- each had to clean up an economic mess left by Republican presidents. Every recession we have had in the last 40 years happened under Republicans.
My belief is that most people view the Democrats as the only party with agency. Healthcare isn't solved in two years? It's the Democrats' fault! Gas is too high? It's the Democrats' fault! There's government fraud and waste? Democrats to blame again! Meanwhile, Republicans can do horrible things but that's all kind of ignored because the Democrats are the ones who are supposed to fix it or stop it.
That message is so deeply cynical and sinister. The result is people trust Republicans and distrust Democrats, and that perspective has been allowed to calcify for over half a century. No wonder US struggles to pull itself out of this quagmire.
More like “the GOP default gov has been sufficiently punished and the nation has been dug out of the hole the GOP made, time to reinstall the default GOP gov since everything is fixed and they’ve done their time standing in the corner.”
Republicans spent every opportunity to gut it and protect insurance companies. Every state was supposed to have their own exchange. Every state was supposed to expand medicaid. But Republicans through a tantrum and got the courts to block both.
Senator Joe Lieberman played a decisive role in shaping the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) by blocking the government-run public health insurance option and forcing the removal of a proposed Medicare buy-in for people aged 55 to 64. Because Democrats held a razor-thin Senate majority and needed 60 votes to overcome filibusters, Lieberman's threat to oppose the legislation effectively doomed those provisions.
But we don’t have long enough memories for that shit, right America? Lmao the insurance companies lobbied Joe to hold everything up unless they were let into the talks and then they made sure to gut the whole thing so that we still have to get raped by insurance companies.
So since legislation didn’t work, but there was a massive uptick in approved claims after Luigi struck back against the insurance companies… what do you all think is the most appropriate way forward and ensuring we get what we the people NEED?
Luigi showed you the way and the founders were explicit in their texts. We know what to do. We are simply cowards.
I feel that’s actually the opposite: we have ran out of simple problems to have solutions to.
We have some deeply complex problems that not only lack but require no simple answers to. And that involves conversations that Dems are unwilling to have (especially establishment corporate Dems) and Repubs would rather condense it down for their own messaging.
This isn’t a dem only problem. Voters are going to punish the party in power until problems get solved. For the first time being the incumbent is a negative mark.
Trump was funded by dark money to an astounding degree, and that's just on ads. There is no data whatsoever on payments to influencers, esp in the manosphere and wellness communities.
Trump was never out-spent, it's just a question of what is being measured.
Nevermind the constant rural talk radio that is all conservative all the time, or the Cambridge Analytica data scandal, or like you mention, many other factors. It's not just the few months before the election, Republicans have made it central to their identity and think Democrats are just evil because that's the world they live in
You obv didn't read your own link. The same report indicates Dem dark spending on money was again about 2-1 compared to republicans.
"Overall, dark money groups boosting Democrats put up about $1.2 billion to influence 2024 elections, while groups boosting Republicans accounted for about $664 million."
So out of $660 million that went to Republicans, Musk contributed to more than a third of that? It’s just odd to me that the article would only comment on $35 million of the $250 million he spent, and not even mention the fact that he spent $250 million in the first place.
I did read it. And I pre-emptively responded to your selective reading of that one part of the article:
>There is no data whatsoever on payments to influencers, esp in the manosphere and wellness communities. ... Trump was never out-spent, it's just a question of what is being measured.
You responding with "yeah but look at what was measured" is thus a non sequitur.
As a commenter below mentions, we know for a fact that many forms of pro-GOP spending aren't in those data. We just don't know how much. But it's very unlikely that the political coalition with all the richest people in it spent less money. It's much, much more likely that the system is so corrupt that we have no clue how much they spent.
Ok, your point makes more sense to me. This report doesn’t even go into detail on Musk’s $250 million spent on the last election, which was bizarre to me.
Um. The coalition with the most rich people in it is the Democrats, and has been for a while.
Here's what the report has to say:
"Several other types of election spending by dark money groups have not been included in this analysis because they are difficult or impossible to track. As noted, not all online platforms release spending data, and none publishes data on certain forms of expenditures, like paid influencers. This analysis also does not include data for radio ads that are not reported to the FEC, and, as mentioned above, streaming video applications and some TV spending. Other forms of communication, like billboards and flyers, are also generally left out of FEC data unless they expressly advocate for or against a candidate."
My take is that it's implied that the uncounted/uncountable spending is considered by this report to be a small fraction of what it does count. Maybe I'm wrong but if you are going to make up a claim about secret billionaires secretly getting guys you don't like over the threshold I'd like to see some backing for that. Because we've constantly been seeing this cope narrative from Dems, when really I think it's an excuse for why they've been so demonstrably bad at using the money they've been given. It's like a party of nepobabies just out of college making the major election decisions. Following the last election, my impression is that the Dems heavily spent on 'paid influencers', one of the categories mentioned above that aren't trackable. That... didn't turn out very well based on anectdata at least.
>My take is that it's implied that the uncounted/uncountable spending is considered by this report to be a small fraction of what it does count.
We don't have to speculate with #takes, they tell us that isn't true:
>Therefore, the $1.9 billion figure reported in this analysis necessarily — and perhaps substantially — underestimates the true scale of dark money spending in 2024.
Btw, this is just dark money, this is not all spending. Elon buying Twitter and turning it into a campaign organ for the Trump campaign is not included, but it definitely happened, and definitely mattered. That one expenditure outweighs all Democratic spending by many multiples, and Elon was repaid with gobs of federal contracts plus DOGE.
This is another common narrative that is wrong:
>Um. The coalition with the most rich people in it is the Democrats, and has been for a while.
Many highly-educated people support Democrats, some of whom are high income. But I didn't say high income. I said "the most rich people". The top-1%, the tech CEOs, the Koch family, the Ellison family, Elon, the "billionaires" that Bernie and Mamdani talk about constantly, the generational wealth. They support Trump, not Democrats, as does the small business community (which is very large) and management of the megacorps. Yes, college professors and NYT editors vote Democrat, and they have above-average household incomes, but that does not mean that Republicans are not supported by the rich. They are. That hasn't changed.
>It's like a party of nepobabies just out of college making the major election decisions.
What we really need are more Nazi-adjacent oyster farmers (with rich parents) who sexually assault GOP operatives, amirite?
You guys think winning one Senate primary is the same as winning the presidency and both houses. The difficult reality is that Rust Belt progressives like Feingold and Brown are being driven out, not by "establishment Dems" but by voters. Progressives have been contesting races for years, they've just been losing. Maybe El-Sayed can stem the tide, but for every one of him there are three Ossoffs and Talaricos and Osbornes. Social media has made progressives much louder, but that has not translated into more progressive victories, and the reason is because progressives aren't very good at coalition-building. Maybe part of that is because they are constantly attacking the party they are running under, which damages the party's reputation and demoralizes potential voters.
>turning it into a campaign organ for the Trump campaign is not included, but it definitely happened, and definitely mattered. That one expenditure outweighs all Democratic spending by many multiples, and Elon was repaid with gobs of federal contracts plus DOGE.
You can believe this if you think that all social media were perfectly objective and non partisan prior to Twitter being acquired. And if you're deep in a bubble that might be a reasonable belief. However, those of us who weren't in a bubble or seeking a cope for Dem's general cluelessness know it isn't true. Musk's acquisition of Twitter forced the de-facto censorship of the industry to ease.
>What we really need are more Nazi-adjacent oyster farmers (with rich parents) who sexually assault GOP operatives, amirite?
>Social media has made progressives much louder, but that has not translated into more progressive victories, and the reason is because progressives aren't very good at coalition-building.
We are agreed on that, but I'd say it's more because of arrogance and control over the media the progs enjoyed starting in the Obama years. They didn't have to be good at coalition building then. They could just steamroll over any objections or unpopularity.
Democrats are only broadcasting ads during the election cycle.
Republicans own the big cable TV channels and the local TV channels and the AM radio shows and the Spanish-language radio channels and are broadcasting propaganda all day every day all year every year.
IMO it is laughable to claim that Repubs have and have always had media supremacy over the Dems. Not only is it cope, but it's evidence again IMO that you are deep in a bubble that has no clue of what is happening in the rest of the country.
Sorry, I can see how that would be interpreted as "have always had media supremacy". I had been thinking of the past couple of years and the near future when writing that comment. Particularly, I had been thinking of a story where Democrats were clapping themselves in the back for running campaign ads in Spanish on Spanish-language radio in South Florida. A Republican donor then bought the radio station.
Fox News and the other Republican owned and aligned media don't take alternating years off the way Democratic media campaigns do.
Spending on a campaign isn't the same as being carried indefinitely and having the entire social ecosystem bought and skewed to pull for you. Those are precicely the reasons the Democrats lose elections, regardless how many times Bernie Sanders spits the same tired routine about the Dems letting down the working class on his yearly sound bite tours.
LOL this is evidence of being in a total immersion bubble. If you look at just the scandals that emerged from social media alone in the Biden years it's enough to completely obliterate this cope. Or watch the faces of the newscasters on election night 2016 and to a lesser extent 2024. Whatever ails the Democratic party, it's not lack of media bootlicking of their agenda. But of course it's the most convenient belief to have if you are bought into Democratic elites desire to not be blamed for any of their mistakes.
You have a serious aversion to reality that anyone who was alive then can call you out on. If there was a liberal bias lean, Trump wouldn't have made it past his campaign. Even Bush Jr wouldn't have squeaked by.
How you can put on an act with an "LOL" after all of the stations and outlets that ran interference for Trump from the start ended up getting bought out and taken over anyway to finally drop the mask is the real comedy. That's on top of Musk buying out Twitter and Synclair spreading their reach even further.
Indeed? Who were these outlets and stations? Lol, and lol again. If you think that the media was on net biased towards Trump you really should try broadening your reading.
Good excuse to post this pretty funny compilation:
Even the outlets that pretended to lean liberal pulled for Trump and Bush before him. You're either seriously gullible or you're complicit. Those same outlets are now getting bought out or targeted to be bought out like I said before to go fully mask off even though they played their game.
So, you think that most of the media were predicting a Trump win and were enthusiastic about it? That everyone was unshocked that Trump won?
Me, I don't watch much boomer news anymore and wouldn't know, but it would not surprise me that e.g. CNN, CBS, et al is so little watched now that a young one would think that they weren't considered the major media at one time. But if you lived through it you'd know it.
Edit: You know, it's not really my job to convince everyone who is wrong on the internet that they are wrong. You go on believing the story that Republicans are actually the favored squirrels of the legacy media. It's not good for your long term happiness, but then again you're not going to be happy in any event and at least this way you'll have a simple reason for your unhappiness.
Democrats lie, like all politicians, or they make promises that are very aspirational to put it in gentler terms. If you seriously think Trump is ruining the country because Democrats don't know how to lie or are unwilling to, you should hate the democrats for that failure. The part about billionaires is just not true (almost like a lie), democrats have plenty of billionaire donors.
Thats the cycle because the dem establishment serves up half measures and and then when they get beaten, thry dont go on the attack against republicans. They roll over.
Thats changing.
Im not saying youre wrong, but I think the 2022 hangover could have been avoided we had a fighter in there rather than an old statesman way passed his prime. They may not have won as much as biden did, but they would have pushed the conversation about the republican obstructionist and forced it into the mainstream.
Chuck schumer standing on stage after trump was elected and declaring that his #1 priority is keeping the democrats pro israel is an example of how broken dem establishment is.
Completely out of touch.
And if thats the kind of judgements the senate leader of dems displays how the hell can you trust him on any issue?
Jeffries is similar. Takes money from palantir but then rails against trumps overstepping the consitution.
Buts obviously nuanced. Republicans are attempting to take over america and make it a one party state.
Im not a fan of amy klobuchar. But Ill vote for her in November because shes better than the alternative.
Completely agree. They're also not willing to do is break the law, but Reddit loves to criticize them constantly for it.
Democracy is a social structure that we've created. If you remove the foundational premise, which are the laws governing everything, then everything is made up and meaningless.
I mean probably the biggest reason they’re not willing to break the law is because they still will absolutely be punished for it, by legal enforcement mechanisms and by voters.
It’s so frustrating whenever I see people on the left act like Trump/conservatives getting away with it means that anyone could get away with it if they simply wanted to.
The Democrats lie all the time. We’ve accepted it as “the price of doing business.” Did you notice how Trump seems to be doing whatever he wants with complete impunity? Obama could have done that and more when he had a Supermajority or “only” 59 Democrats in the Senate. He and they didn’t want to. They thought things like guaranteeing Abortion Rights under federal law “wasn’t important.” And single payer “wasn’t feasible.”
See the DSA New York Mayor who solved…every problem New York City has had for decades inside of a few months?
The Democrats lies, corruption, incompetence, arrogance, and stupidity is what gave us Trump in the first place. Hillary Clinton herself came up with the “Pied Piper” strategy and encouraged her husband’s ex to run so she wouldn’t have to cater to the electorate at all when she ran for president.
He's mayor of a majority Democratic city, he can do what he wants, he doesn't have a Senate or Congress or SCOTUS w equal powers that tries to stop or alter everything he tries. There is no comparison.
I have heard more lies from progressives and the DSA in the last few years than I have heard lies from establishment Dems.
I have heard out of touch comments, comments where its clear they are wrong but not lying, as well as really poor communication, but the Dems aren't big liars.
Its possible people are wrong without lying. But given the context of statements being made from the sides, its clear American populists are largely liars.
What is the difference? Being wrong is something people you agree with do, but lying is something populists do?
It's possible to believe someone is wrong without lying if you're willing to give the person some trust and accept that they are acting in good faith, which will happen a lot more with people you agree with compared to the people you are opposed.
I do admit most of them, if not liars, are crazy. I.e. the “interracial marriage is colonization” lady.
But everytime the establishment dems chase this mythical “center” (i.e. Kamala campaigning with Cheneys) how is that not dishonest? Yeah people will go for the populists when they can no longer trust the establishment.
I hate to break it to you, but by the rest of the Democratic World's standard, Harris was firmly center left and firmly progressive socially. No one outside of America saw her as a centrist.
TLDR: Americans populists across the political spectrum are about as dumb as each other.
The Amefican left are significantly more to the left of most European Social Democracies even though they belive they are similar. This distorts their view of how good the 'Centrist' Democrats actually are.
Your issue both on the left and right in America is none of you understand your policy system, you have such a large Overton window and the Dems still barely win. The Dems HAVE TO appeal to the moderate if they want to win.
Here in New Zealand, the Democratic party EASILY represents out entire political spectrum. People like Warren and Mamdania easily fit within the left wing faction of our Greens party, and people like Fetterman and Manchin would easily fit without our most right wing conservative party, New Zealand First.
And even with that massive coalition the Dems barley get 50% of the vote.
The reason I believe though that calling yourself a “moderate”, at least in the US, is a political trap though, even though I’m all for balance and compromise, is because it’s hard to differentiate between a true “moderate” and someone who doesn’t really believe in anything, or who will say anything to get elected, or who is too afraid to do what is needed to enact change. A lot of Republicans were once so-called moderates (for example the late Lindsey Graham) until Trump came along and oh no they have to change their tune and now they knowtow to Trumpism. We are beginning to see this with the Dem Party too.
Can we trust those feckless “moderates” to govern our country when they so clearly are only interested in furthering themselves?
I always think about Hamilton endorsing his political enemy Thomas Jefferson because Burr was one of those “moderates”. In the US we basically associate “centrist” with “opportunist”.
Harris was a centrist in 2024 because she was the VP of Joe Biden that took over and had no meaningful left wing agenda. in 2020 she did terribly in the primary with some progressive rhetoric and support for medicare for all, back then she was considered to be progressive, but she did terribly in that primary.
"The American left" is basically non existent. Most nations have a multi party parlaimentary system, because the US does not have that, the two major parties are economically to the right of the rest of the world. In what country does the "working class vote" shift to the conservatives purely based on cultural grievances? One in which there is no economic policy for workers to support.
If you saw Harris as progressive, it was probably because she was younger and black, people thought Obama was progressive for similar reasons without any other knowledge of the guy. In Australia, she was just seen as the sane choice between her and Trump.
Mamdani is a NY mayor, and he is the most radical politician most know of, because he champions policies that have been part of most Green Parties in countries like NZ for decades, the NZ labour party describes itself as democratic socialist. Bernie Sanders has spent his life as an independent, outside of the Democratic Party. Elizabeth Warren is just a boring democrat that believes in regulating wall st.
I have no idea why you think these Democrats would belong in the left of the Green party (which itself is only more progressive on social issues compared to Labour).
You are so misinformed about everything you said. But that's fitting considering you come from the Florida of the planet.
Joe Biden pushed through more left wing and pro-union policies compared to Jacinda Adern and he did that with a divided government vs supermajority here.
Labour are Social Democrats, which are a form of Capitalist. Even the Greens Party is largely Capitalist. Mamdani would sit perfectly at the left fringe of the Greens. Labour hasn't practiced anything even tangentially related to Socialism in the last 3 decades.
But you do you, keep being a cunt and keep purity testing already progressive politicians because they are only 99% as pure as you are.
lol come on man, do you really want to do this fake aussie v nz thing? I don't care, you have a great country.
The fact that you think Adern was less pro labour because Biden "pushed through more pro Union policies" that NZ labour passed decades ago and has maintained. That's what a Labour party does. He didn't increase the minimum wage, used anti union legislation to stop a railway strike. While he did more than most presidents and made unions a big part of his presidency, the US is still very far behind NZ in terms of worker rights, which has been upheld by the SCOTUS so congress and the white house don't even bother trying to get American's the same standards that other workers in the West have.
Thinking Biden is more "pro union" than Adern (or any Labour government) because he tried to play a bit of catch up (and really, not that much) doesn't hold up.
Mamdani is also a capitalist like Labour and the Greens, so what's your point? Both like to use the word "socialist" when it suites them. Mamdani is radical in the context of the US, his policies aren't radical in Australia or most of Europe. He is also just a mayor, comparing him to national parties doesn't work that well. AOC is considered the most progressive Democrat in national politics, and she isn't that left wing compared to most Labour parties either. The Green New Deal was her big thing for a while, and the actual policies in it were again, playing catch up with environmental regulations and worker safety that most other countries had already introduced.
"the left fringes of the Greens" makes me think you don't engage much with left wing politics in NZ or the US. The Greens are environmentalists, not radical leftists. Over the past decade or two most Greens parties have been leaning into more left wing economic populism as Labour parties loses their influence amongst workers, but Greens parties are usually focused on the environment, then social issues like drug legalisation, and stay away from most issues, and usually want to avoid the label of "radical lefties" by pushing for policies the way Mamdani has been doing.
>But you do you, keep being a cunt and keep purity testing already progressive politicians because they are only 99% as pure as you are.
this is weirdly hostile, if you are from NZ then why are you this agitated by US politics? Especially when the conversation is as subjective as comparing different countries politicians.
Dems are also “the resistance” to the GOP and they can only actually enact small measures because their corporate owners wouldn’t ever allow them to provide Medicare for all, increase the minimum age (maybe a one-time increase in 3 years) or address climate change in a functional manner.
The GOP can get by because their supporters love evil shit. Dems struggle because they try to promise a better tomorrow that they can’t really deliver on too often because it would be slightly less profits for the Capital class.
I think this entirely misses the point of the article.
They talked about how the Democrats were out of touch with working class voters, even gave specific examples of issues, and yet it's framed as this unsolveable problem by so many people...
This and also the fact that the political right in the United States has completely and shamelessly abdicated its responsibility to even pretend to tell the truth nowadays and hold their most egregious members accountable. They are literally a cult consumed by complete and utter mass hysteria in which imaginary problems with radical solutions become party gospel.
Just give the voters something to chew on and be transparent. Give us simple wins, 4 day work week, anti union busting laws. These are laws that done need heaven and earth moved. Simple legislation
The MAMDANI approach CAN work here. They need to be PRESENT and VISIBLE and REAL. Potholes, etc. Yes you’re only going to get a portion of them but that’s ok. Anyone who doesn’t listen didn’t want to in the first place.
It would also help if democrats would actually commit to socialist policies rather than be another capitalist party that rainbow-washes itself to appeal to a different set of voters.
Democrats lie cheat and steal like the rest of them. The problem is they try to placate to the right and it’s pissing off the left/far-left to the point they are choosing socialism. It’s weakening the party and enabling republicans to continue this mess.
Life long Dems need to step aside and let the young party member take charge.
Democrats main problem is actually that they don't represent the people they want to vote for them. Over and over a popular point will just get us told "here's why we can't do it and you should expect less". That's not going to motivate anyone to vote, it just makes them look useless
People keep trying to come up with wise, reasonable reasons why low-information voters vote the way they do.
It's because they are low-information. You don't want to call them stupid, fine, but they're fed a concentrated diet of propaganda that reinforces the only thing they DO know, tribalism.
It's not "the economy, stupid." It's not policies.
For literally 18 years, it has been "Democrats are evil. Anything they do is bad, and the republican party exists to oppose anything they do." That's all it is. If a concept is put forward by a Democrat, Republicans oppose it. If a bill is sponsored by a Democrat, Republicans vote against it.
And that messaging has reinforced itself over literal decades, so you have deep-red voters who cannot even imagine voting otherwise, as it would be a betrayal of their community, family, and selves.
I agree with you. Their identities are so tied to Republicans that it barely matters what politicians do. I mean consider how much people care about sports teams which actually don’t impact their lives at all.
I don’t know what the solution is to populism like this. I’ve read that erosion in institutional trust pushes people into populism, but that seems hard to remedy when dumb people keep voting for politicians who make the situation even worse.
Why would anyone want to destroy the Fourth Estate - or the Constitution for that matter?
It would actually be more helpful if people were taught to take personal responsibility for their own thoughts. I have yet to see a large media corporation, or even a small one, put a gun to anyone’s head literally forcing anyone to think or believe anything.
I was being polite. I can always tell when somebody hasn’t actually done their homework as to the backstory of whatever they’re complaining about. But, it’s not my job to school you. You have a few bits and pieces that are accurate and the rest just inaccurate. Once again. I’m being polite.
I knew a Pro Life pro LGBTQ devout Catholic Hispanic lady who voted for the Democratic party because she fears ice. She's example of a conservative Democrat
Thank you for pointing this out. The term "working class" has lost all meaning in these discussions because it's long been used as a euphemism to describe a form of blue collar work that has been on steady decline for decades.
Statistically no that’s not true, but even so you’re describing ann archetype that is also very likely to be conservative. Nurses ain’t the front line of the progressive army…
When hundreds of billions of dollars have been spent over the past 60 years to brainwash people into voting against their best interest by making them angry about stuff that doesn’t actually matter, of course it will be difficult to get those people to change their minds.
Here is something I am frustrated with. You can say these working class people care about stuff that doesn't actually matter, or is irrational, or is based on lies. And all that may be true. But those people vote. And if you are going to get them to vote for you, you need to offer something tangible to them. Because otherwise they will always, always, always go with the person who promises them easy solutions and a target for their grievances, because humans can be very, very stupid. It seems to
me that if people have a certain amount of material comfort they stop caring about marginal gains for themselves and more about protecting their immaterial wealth - their status, their social position, their sense of self-importance and righteousness.
I guess what I’m saying is that once people have been programmed, there’s nothing the other side can offer that will get most of them to change their thinking. The issues that drive them don’t have tangible solutions Democrats would be able to offer without moving farther to the right.
There is more nuance to it than that. First of all, Democrats don’t run people who are far left and a lot of what we are seeing is that ideas considered “far left” are actually popular. The billions of dollars my original comment is referring to have gone toward shaping the idea that “far left” is bad, or radical. The left in America would still be considered moderate in most developed counties. But here, Conservatives put so much effort into demonizing policies that help people, you can’t even use the word Socialist without someone talking some crazy bullshit about communism, or people gaming the system. Conservatives are reactionary, and don’t look at what will actually happen when socialist policies are in place. For example, regulations actually benefit small business, and they are bad for large corporations. But in America, corporate money has been blasting dog shit 24/7 into Republicans ears until it has become “common knowledge” that regulations are bad for small businesses. Rather than looking at the evidence right in front of their fucking eyes, that large corporations have paid to have everything deregulated to the point that they make it next to impossible for small businesses to compete. Another myth is that people who receive public benefits are lazy or abuse them, when all of the evidence shows only a small minority of people abuse public benefits, which are already a tiny fraction of our tax dollars which spend exponentially more on subsidizing corporations and funding endless war. The latest “radical left” policy that these billions of dollars have gone toward poisoning public opinion on is the idea that somehow trans people aren’t deserving of health care that their doctor has prescribed them. Republicans like to say that doctors are just handing out puberty blockers willy nilly to children, or giving minors gender affirming surgery. If Republicans gave a shit about the truth it wouldn’t take long to find out this isn’t happening, that the puberty blockers are given for genuine medical reasons and that there are no cases of minors getting these surgeries. Repubs will talk about how these medications cause cancer without pointing out the studies on how there may be a cancer risk were done on post menopausal women who are the largest population by far who receive the medication. Do they mention this risk to older women though? Fuck no, because it doesn’t fit the made up narrative that trans people’s lives are somehow their business. Billionaires and the corporate elite have created these arguments to cause division because they know that if Republican voters caught a fucking clue as to how bad they are getting screwed by the wealthy, they might actually help democrats do something about it. Instead we have a bunch of “concerned Christians” voting for people who hate the same people as them, and a law enforcement class who are convinced liberals are evil and will do whatever the fuck billionaires tell them to do, including squashing any kind of protest for change.
H. Clinton and Kamala had clear goals for poor areas like the Appalachians and the real problem is that mass media and social media are now in collision with the right wing and will never willingly give a voice to left wing. Clinton promoted training in renewables for the coal industry and Kamala talked about tax credits and assistance for first time home owners. Both times blue collar said fuck off even though those same people suffer more under trump.
> real problem is that mass media and social media are now in collision with the right wing
The real problem was inflation, it wasn't Biden's fault (since it affected every country), but Trump clearly blamed it on Biden which is how he won the working class.
2024 was a year in which every incumbent party in the developed world lost votes.
ohboy now you want to use your own unstated but im sure interesting definition of the working class because i made you look like a stupid and unskilled liar lol.
Do you not see how, given the choice between "you can keep your job" vs "we want to get rid of your job but we'll train you for a new one", a LOT of people are going to prefer the first option??
Like, saying they tried to appeal to working class people there is borderline insulting..
trying to get rid of one industry then offering training for a new one isn't going to market well.
if you're 55 and worked in coal you're whole life, you're unlikely to want to switch to solar. especially if there's not enough installation work nearby.
dems didn't start by looking for what would help Appalachia and identify solar. they identified solar as a priority and then tried to push it where it only made limited sense
tax credits for first time homeowners keeps prices high and helps sellers.
The Biden admin bailed out the teamster pension with like $35 BILLION dollars, teamsters voted for, and their president campaigned for, Trump.
I dunno, I think people are willing to throw the baby out with the bath water and harm their material comfort if it means they can stick it to foreigners.
Kamala and the democrats had very strong policy stuff on aiding first time home buyers and college debt, both of which are massive hurdles for working class/lower middle class/whatever you want to call people.
It wasn't a secret, it was communicated. I fucking knew about it and I don't have some kind off secret insight.
Your argument is cute because you ignore that the dems HAVE offered them something tangible. It’s disingenuous to blame the dems for failing to do the exact thing they actually did and suggest if they only listen to you then they’ll win.
Well you say spent, but fox news makes money. Which is so much worse. It turns out that fear and sensationalism based propaganda is more economically viable than real news
It seems most of these articles secretly point towards a much deeper problem in western democracies in general: pluralism and liberal neutrality fail in the 21st century.
Ok so what DO working class voters actually want? This article- and I've seen many variations of this theme- tell us that working class voters don't like or disagree with Democrats. They don't want government health cares, job guarantees, government programs. Ok so they want a few asshole billionaires and corporations in charge? If so- fine, I guess, Dems will keep losing and the working class voters get what they want- continually screwed over. I don't see the problem here- democracy is working.
Yeah, everyone nods their heads wisely and says "see, this is why democrats lose! They don't give what low-information voters want! They just call them stupid!"
And then the low-information voters believe stories about Haitian immigrants eating pet dogs.
If they are low information voters, then they should be easier to "get" than the "high information voter".
But that's not the problem, Democrats lose because they are too constrained by donors or party leadership or media attacks or any number of things, then they lose, then they blame voters for not giving them more credit about how they obviously support good policies, they just have to be sneaky about it so all of the interested parties benefiting from the shitty system don't dump millions of dollars into their oppposition.
>If they are low information voters, then they should be easier to "get" than the "high information voter".
hahahahaha what???
>But that's not the problem, Democrats lose because they are too constrained by donors or party leadership or media attacks or any number of things, then they lose, then they blame voters for not giving them more credit about how they obviously support good policies, they just have to be sneaky about it so all of the interested parties benefiting from the shitty system don't dump millions of dollars into their oppposition.
in what way was the average american not better off at the end of the biden administration? sure he wasnt perfect but we saw wage gains (particularly for low incomes), climate action, an infrastructure bill, pro-labor and anti-scam work, effectively ending the drone war, and ending the afghanistan occupation. not to mention successfully rolling out a covid vaccine and getting post-pandemic inflation under control.
is it really so difficult to admit that american voter fucked up bad in 2024?
You should be able to win over low win voters in a political contest. Is this something you can't grasp?
>in what way was the average american not better off at the end of the biden administration? sure he wasnt perfect but we saw wage gains (particularly for low incomes), climate action, an infrastructure bill, pro-labor and anti-scam work, effectively ending the drone war, and ending the afghanistan occupation. not to mention successfully rolling out a covid vaccine and getting post-pandemic inflation under control.
In what way did you think we were talking about Joe Biden? He won his election. Harris lost in 2024.
>is it really so difficult to admit that american voter fucked up bad in 2024?
What do you mean? The American voter is where the government draws its sovereignty and legitimacy from. They literally can't pick wrong. That's how democracy works. The voters wanted the fucked up bad choice in 2024.
The entire point of this conversation is that low information voters are susceptible to propaganda and vote against policies that help them. So yes, they "picked wrong."
As for the Democrats, the donor thing is a serious issue, although it's horrific on both sides.
The problem is that propaganda from the Democrats is essentially worse- they're less willing to use it, and it's less effective than tried and true stuff like "think of the children! Also Haitians want to eat your dogs"
>You should be able to win over low win voters in a political contest. Is this something you can't grasp?
is "low information" a euphemism here for "complete idiot?" i just want to make our terms as clear as possible!
>In what way did you think we were talking about Joe Biden? He won his election. Harris lost in 2024.
pardon me i thought we were talking about democratic perfomance in office the the loss of biden's vice president who promised a continuation of his policies lol.
>What do you mean? The American voter is where the government draws its sovereignty and legitimacy from.
yes...
>They literally can't pick wrong. That's how democracy works.
lolwhat??? how does that follow?
go ahead and tell yourself this while you're eating cat food and avoiding peter thiels blood-draining paramilitaries next year!
>The voters wanted the fucked up bad choice in 2024.
so ... the voters fucked up?
thanks for restating my point, albeit in a dumber and uglier way!
based on how they vote, they want to pay more in taxes, higher gas prices, no funding for schools, and to have their unions busted, then be told they're only cared about until they vote
It's actually pretty simple. They don't want to be talked down to and lectured. If you keep telling a group of people they're wrong for what they're feeling and thinking and should just be quiet and let the "smart people" tell them what's in their own best interests, you're gonna lose them. It doesn't even matter if what you tell them IS in their own best interests. They want to be listened to and their opinions taken seriously. That's how Trump won.
And if your answer is along the lines of "well their opinions are stupid and racist"... well I guess you don't care about trying to win their vote. You might even be right, but it doesn't really matter. That isn't how you change their minds.
You can blame democrats for talking down to them if you want I guess. I’m a single white dude who makes 58k in a suburb, basically the guy we are talking about here. From my experience talking to others like me, nothing changes their mind and everything will warp back around to “the Dems just don’t care about the working class”
And this is gonna sound bad, but i’v started not to really care when I hear their complaints. I struggle to afford some shit too and only have the life I do because of a very supportive family. So when I see these people who make what I do or more struggle due to cuts to Medicare, inflation due to tariffs, why do I have to be the adult and they be coddled like little children? I’m hurt by this too! Yet because I chose not to vote for it, I somehow am an elite who talks down. I’m in the same gutter as them yet for some reason we need to use kid gloves and diapers to try to make it so they don’t vote for a guy who starts another forever war with a middle eastern country that starts with I or implements insane tariffs
Again. Same attitude. "Why do in have to treat them with kid gloves?". That's the exact attitude. Kid gloves also comes from a place where you assume they are childish and need to be jacked as children. Which is what the Dems have also tried and failed because it's an obvious patronizing attitude.
Very few people approach this group of people just... Normally. Like hey what's going on in your life? What's hard for you? What are your worries? Add do that WITHOUT it being just a launch point in telling them they're wrong fit feeling left behind by the economy, that their worries about immigration are racist, etc.
Just effin listen and engage in an equal diqlogue. And don't turn it into a purity test where they need to agree with you on everything. It's ok to disagree sometimes without casting each other out.
I’m literally part of the group, my point is no one asks republicans to come up to me, ask me about my life and try to relate to why I disagree. The literally president and vice president just calls us crazy lefties and say we are gonna destroy the country
Trump and others can do that, but then people like me, despite being in the same situation have to talk the mantel of responsibility to understand and bridge the divide
I live in a more blue suburb and tend to vote blue for both social and economic reasons. The Republicans that have run to try to represent me have painted us blue voters as people who love child predators, crime and are why America will fall. And despite this area being blue, when they lose, every time the first thing is talking about fraud or how we are sheep who don’t deserve to vote.
Do you see my issue now? The last decade has been asking one side to stand up and understand the other yet my lived experience has not gotten any similar courtesy in return
I see your issue but... It's the same issue. You live in a blue area and say the republicans that are running there (and failing to get elected) aren't coming up to you to learn about you and your life. Yes. And. They're not getting ellected.
Now flip that into the redder/purple areas and instead of the republican candidates trying to swim upstream it's the Dem candidates. And losing.
Im not saying it's something only the D candidates should be doing. It applies to both sides. But in this thread we were talking about specifically about the group of working class voters the Dems are failing to reach. I offered my reasons why.
>It's actually pretty simple. They don't want to be talked down to and lectured.
hahahaha no matter what the dems do or say or how they say it they will always, ALWAYS be accused of this. there is no way to win this particular game.
> If you keep telling a group of people they're wrong for what they're feeling and thinking and should just be quiet and let the "smart people"
"im sorry, nummikins, i know those haitians are dirty backwards people but pretty pretty please dont accuse them of eating pets! i still love you and know you dont mean anything bad when you say it!!!"
> It doesn't even matter if what you tell them IS in their own best interests. They want to be listened to and their opinions taken seriously. That's how Trump won.
trump won because he endlessly bullshitted and the american people had recovered sufficiently under the democrats to feel safe voting for a racist carnival barker for the lulz.
>And if your answer is along the lines of "well their opinions are stupid and racist"... well I guess you don't care about trying to win their vote. You might even be right, but it doesn't really matter. That isn't how you change their minds.
lol these dumbasses arent gonna remember shit. they're going to vote, if they even remember to, based on what they had for breakfast the morning of election day and whether they had to pay $2.99 or $3.00 / gallon for gas.
So what? Really, SO WHAT? Did anyone NOT expect him to do that? Trump 2024 was a known entity. Everyone knew everything about his shit. If the DNC has no playbook for how to counteract that shit then they are failing as a party. It literally their primary job as a political party organization.
I think most DNC candidates/leadership don't realize how insanely out of touch their are with most of the country. Their handpicked candidate got beat by trump in 2024 (after all his shit was known) and lost both the popular and electoral vote. And trump GAINED share with minorities in 24 vs 16. And right now the party is also losing to challengers from the far left who are basically doing the shit I said above, actually going out and connecting with voters in their 9wn populist vibe.
(Personally I find people like manadi and Wilson just the left equivalent of trump, entirely unqualified and promising shit that stokes the populist vibe that they will totally fail to deliver. Never the less that doesn't change the fact both them and maga are utterly trashing the classical academic-elitist wing of the DNC)
>So what? Really, SO WHAT? Did anyone NOT expect him to do that? Trump 2024 was a known entity. Everyone knew everything about his shit. If the DNC has no playbook for how to counteract that shit then they are failing as a party. It literally their primary job as a political party organization.
lol
say it again now!
"only the democrats have agency in us politics."
>I think most DNC candidates/leadership don't realize how insanely out of touch their are with most of the country. Their handpicked candidate got beat by trump in 2024 (after all his shit was known) and lost both the popular and electoral vote. And trump GAINED share with minorities in 24 vs 16.
and his approval rating is lower than whale shit and those gains he made with minorities seem to have been wiped out lol.
its 2026, not 2024. better update your scripts!
>Personally I find people like manadi and Wilson just the left equivalent of trump, entirely unqualified and promising shit that stokes the populist vibe that they will totally fail to deliver.
hahaha yeah i too remember when mamdani and wilson led coups and murdered people!
"He haslowered crime rates, won legislative concessions for two of his top priorities in Albany, delivered a rent freeze (through the Rent Guidelines Board he largely appoints) on regulated apartments, and eked out a budget hours before its deadline, while welcoming hundreds of thousands of sports-crazed revelers from around the world into city streets this summer without major incidents. He’s won praise among many who see housing production as key to delivering a more affordable city by releasing a robust “Block by Block” plan to encourage construction as well as identifying ways to speed permitting approvals.
Yeah, a lot of those ‘Man on the street’ type interviews along with the general media machine for the last 20 years have kind of memed people into believing that working class conservatives are all stupid racists who only vote the way they do because of the ‘hate in their heart’ or ‘Fox News’ or something equally dismissive. While there are stupid people in every party, if you actually sit down with a conservative in your life, (without immediately getting defensive and trying to ‘debunk’ all their beliefs with half-baked statistics) a lot of them have fully fleshed-out beliefs that come from a lifetime of lived experiences. I’ve been able to find a lot of common ground with conservatives by simply treating them like people through genuine, curious conversation and not problems that need to be beaten with the re-education stick until they comply.
yeah they came by 'haitian immigrants are eating the pets' and 'donald trump, lifeling fraudster who launched a coup should really be president again' because they WEREN'T stupid and racist hahaha.
I don’t think anyone actually believed the whole “they’re eating the pets.” That was just a way to get attention over ludicrous bs.
And it should say more about the democrats when the fraudster gets elected just because he was saying what people wanted to hear. Ultimately people are willing to overlook a lot if they think you will improve their living situation.
>I don’t think anyone actually believed the whole “they’re eating the pets.” That was just a way to get attention over ludicrous bs.
ahhh gotcha. so they didn't believe the vicious lie they were spreading was literally true. they just thought it served the "higher" purpose of justifying the expulsion of people that they considered unworthy from the US.
these people are scum.
>And it should say more about the democrats when the fraudster gets elected just because he was saying what people wanted to hear
as one of the top posts in this thread pointed out, only the democrats seem to have agency in our political system.
>Ultimately people are willing to overlook a lot if they think you will improve their living situation.
hahahaha thats something that biden and the dems absolutely did between 2020 and 2024. thats why the american voter felt safer voting for the funny teavee man and his funny catchphrases.
Bro. If over 50% of the voting public (and 30% of the entire population) decides to vote for trump over Harris in 2024 after EVERYON KNEW all this shit, that should tell you just how flat the D mesagae landed with a huge amount of people.
If the DNCs keeps insisting blaming thepeoppe instead of figuring out how to connect with that part of the population it's just gonna happen again and again. I don't know what else to tell you. Taking a high and mighty "look how stupid they are" may make you feel all righteous in the short term and will just dig the hole deeper long term.
>Bro. If over 50% of the voting public (and 30% of the entire population)
the trump-vance ticket got 49.8% of the popular vote.
his previous win didnt even manage that. the got the presidency because he drew an inside straight and got the right votes in the right places to win, not because more people turned out for him.
i know, i know, this seems like nit-picking. but this is publicly available information. why do you feel the need to exagerate trump's electoral performance?
especially since his approval rating now is in the gutter.
>after EVERYON KNEW all this shit, that should tell you just how flat the D mesagae landed with a huge amount of people.
no they didnt. again, the dumbest voters forgot the awful shit trump did and the last 4 years had seem enough recovery that they felt safe voting to make the lives of immigrants and trans people worse.
>If the DNCs keeps insisting blaming thepeoppe instead of figuring out how to connect with that part of the population it's just gonna happen again and again. I don't know what else to tell you. Taking a high and mighty "look how stupid they are" may make you feel all righteous in the short term and will just dig the hole deeper long term.
lol. and as soon as the democrats (why are you calling them the "DNC" anyway???) change to accomodate voters' imagined reality they will be criticized for not "sounding authentic" or "waffling". again, you cant win this particular game!
imma go ahead and tell you the future to help you understand. the dems wont need to do anything because:
nov 2028: desiring change, voters will "throw the bums out"
2029-2032: the dems will not fix republican-caused catastrophes quickly enough. any imagined slight or misplaced penny will be blown up by the oligarch-owned media into the greatest crisis the republic has ever faced.
nov 2032: desiring change, voters will "throw the bums out".
jan 2033: president-elect andrew tate promises to be a new breed of republican who will not callously ignore the poor or start foreign wars unlike those dirty neocons like george w bush or donald trump. the establishment will swoon at the return of "real masculinity" and "common sense" to washington.
Yup. Cause everyone knew he lies and all his shit. They knew about jan 6. And everything else. And despite that more people CHOSE to vote for him then the other option.
The entire point of a political party such as the DNC is to put up an agenda and candidates that can win and support the public messaging that pushes their candidates forward.
They utterly failed in their one job.
Given a shit sandwich and the DNC candidate, the voters chose a shit sandwich. Ergo, they perceived the DNC option as worse then a shit sandwich.
A typical blue collar guy makes 50k a year. Just enough to get zero support from the government for anything.
Meanwhile, seeing refugees getting free housing and assistance is enough to annoy anyone. People who give, but never get - are annoyed by those who get and never give.
Now look into why the blue collar guy who makes 50k a year isn't getting any support and who frequently stops the bills/policies that would help them out.
I would love any acknowledgment by folks here that the Democratic Party has moved substantially left on cultural issues in the past 12-15 years, and that’s driven a ton of working class exodus.
Deciding to Win did a 2024 autopsy that included an analysis of the Democratic Party platform every year since 2012. Mentions of racial and LGBT identity shot up a thousandfold; climate went way up; discussions of equity rose 700+%. Meanwhile mentions of “middle class” dropped 79%; “jobs” went down 47%; “responsibility” dropped by 83%. Obviously this is just one document but I think it echos the broader vibe shift, which culminated in the peak wokeness era of 2020-2022ish (https://decidingtowin.org/)
Is it crazy to say that working class people shifted away from Dems because they accurately sensed that Democrats / progressives were less focused on bread and butter issues like health care, the social safety net, middle class jobs, taxing the rich, etc? Working class people don’t necessarily hate LGBT rights or the environment but they don’t want to hear about that over and over again to the exclusion of core kitchen-table issues. (Reminder that what caused Mamdani to take off was relentless focus on affordability, not a spate of promises toward niche interest groups)
Your post seems to presume that equity and climate issues don’t concern the working class (even though they directly concern them) and that racial issues don’t, as if they’re all white. The things you’re dismissing as “cultural” issues allow your convenient circular argument, even if unintentional.
As for LGBT stuff- the overwhelmingly vast majority of legislation passed about it is anti-trans/queer by Republicans. Which is then used an excuse to tarnish Dems for “talking about it”
I don’t presume anything, there’s lots and lots of polling showing that the social /cultural focus of college-educated Dems is less popular than their traditional focus on health care, jobs, and education. Voters want Dems to focus on protecting social security (83%), create jobs (74%), lower crime rates (56%). Fighting climate change (35%) and protecting LGBT rights (25%) are much lower. source: https://decidingtowin.org/
whether you engage with that polling is up to you.
It’s like how people said “well we voted for Trump because of inflation”… you voted for the guy with pro inflation policies lmao. Yea turns out voters are sometimes dumb and don’t put together that stuff like tariffs raise prices
I think Dems fundamentally fail to understand just how conservative many working class voters are. And how people will usually vote for morals over their own benefits.
Most of the leftists who refused to vote for Dems over Palestine ignore that the working class is doing the same thing because of the trans.
Not "get paid" money or be "given" money. They want to earn it. This makes them feel valued and it gives their life meaning.
Remember that the charts in the linked article are those who self-identify as "working class". Working is literally a part of their chosen identity.
The problem is, many of them don't have the skills that the current global labor market demands. We can't just give them food stamps and Section 8 vouchers because that would hurt their pride. So we will need to use macoreconomic policy to make them feel good.
Tariffs to force manufacturing back to the US.
Immigration limits to block competition from low-skill workers.
These are the policies that Trump used to win in the Midwest. It's true that these policies won't be very effective. It's also true that there's a lot o stupidity and racism embedded in these policies. But Trump only needed a few percentage points to win WI, MI, and PA.
The good news is that Democrats have a long list of policies that create jobs and make paychecks stretch farther:
Taxing the rich
Unions
Public works
Earned Income Tax Credits
Obamacare (and eventually Medicare for All)
The key is to not treat it like it's a handout. These voters are too proud for handouts. We have to make sure they understand that it's EARNED. I hired guys to climb up on my roof to patch it. Dangerous, difficult work. They were paid peanuts. These guys are already working hard -- we need to find a way for them to get paid for it. It's not right that the people who fix roofs can't afford a roof of their own.
Dems have been talking about and running on what you're saying since Clinton. Bill. And all it's done is create endless articles and reddit threads about how Democrats are out of touch with the working class.
Because they are. They can talk all they want but they have to have actionable achievements. Otherwise it is just talk which is worthless. Democrats have sided with the capitalist against the workers when it comes time to pass actual policy that would make things better, and trip over their own balls to give hand outs to the already obscenely rich. A vast majority are business as usual.
An actual seat at the table, mostly. DSA meetings are full of kids from loaded families. Hasan Piker is the most prominent left wing voice right now and he grew up rich and never worked a day in his life. It's a movement with plenty of folks with elite educations and very little interaction with the workers
It’s really about being annoying asf and treating everything like it’s a liberal arts course and gassing up economic populism and calling everything a “theory”. Talking down to people is another big one.
To be clear, I lean Democrat and would vote for any moderate Democrat over any republican (Biden was the best president in my life time imo).
I’m very socially progressive (Don’t care about any of the anti-woke shit, I’m pro trans, I’m pro abortion, support free healthcare, higher taxes on wealthy etc) but I love free markets & capitalism. I support strong U.S. foreign policy (explicitly anti-Russia, anti-China, anti-Iran, anti-Terrorism etc). It feels like when u get into the economic and foreign policy side of things leftists and tankies constantly talk down to you about stuff they don’t understand. As if there’s something wrong about loving America.
>treating everything like it’s a liberal arts course
what the heck does this mean lol
>Talking down to people is another big one.
the dipshit demographic will always feel that they are being talked down to, lol
>It feels like when u get into the economic and foreign policy side of things leftists and tankies constantly talk down to you about stuff they don’t understand. As if there’s something wrong about loving America.
yes kamala harris and the 2024 democrats were all about the tankies rofl
I am frankly tired of Joe Roganites referring to themselves as “the working class” and demanding the world cater to their dumbass narcissistic white/christian/male delusions. Just way what you want to say; Democrats aren’t popular with uneducated white men, because they don’t pander to them and they are the most delicate, special snowflakes on planet earth.
It’s rich coming from the “fuck your feelings” crowd that freaks out when they see pronouns. Eternally aggrieved babies even though you constantly get your way.
Nah not if the pandering includes climate change denial, concentration camps, and vaccine skepticism which seem to be primary drivers for the MAGA disease.
There are enough white people in this country who are motivated by things other than some illusion of racial identity, those votes are useless to chase. the weirdo racially motivated voters will always go for the most conservative side anyway.
He is a fanatic who doesn't care about making sure disillusioned centrists and liberals don't vote Republican. It's people like him who keep the Republicans winning in all the swing states.
Democrats keep losing because they don't go after those voters and would rather champion the "rights" of biological males to use female changerooms/bathrooms.
This kind of rhetoric is why the Democrats lost. Lumping every white working class person together with the troglodytes isn't going to garner their votes
It’s borne out in the statistics, this is an objective fact, the primary determinants of which way someone voted were gender, education, and ethnicity which is to say uneducated white people (especially men) voted for Trump. It’s just the truth. They were his most overwhelmingly supportive bloc.
The determiner was religion. Which correlates with ethnicity and education, but religion is the easiest thing to target.
The Southern Baptist church doesn’t exist anymore, it just exists to give Republicans votes. There’s no coherent theology amongst the believers. The same is true for non-denominational Christians.
Republicans are always telling the working class they aren't working hard enough, and only deserve healthcare sometimes, but somehow this isn't a negative for them politically? Even though they consistently funnel money to the wealthiest people? (not even american citizens too)
So they like money being funneled to ultra billionaires who don't work for it? How does that make any sense? All the working men I know want better healthcare and better opportunities.
and yet, its just the white working class that seems to have this issue. working class folks of other races seem to be considerably friendlier to dems...
The working class leans left on a number of issues. But also conservative. So a number of liberal issues - trans rights, protections against discrimination, protecting immigrants - doesn't play well with the working class. It's why LBJ a ways back said that passing civil rights lost the Democratic party the South.
And of course if Democrats moved away from liberal issues like civil rights to focus on more leftist issues like taxing corporations and the rich, it would alienate progressive voters. Democrats are kind of fucked when things are going well and conservative leaning voters can pretend a healthy economy isn't tied to Democratic administrations. It's only when Republicans have shit the bed that some of those voters remember that Republicans are absolute shit at a healthy economy (and are also warmongers who will get us into military quagmires).
It's not fully the issue, but part of the problem is how steadfastly some leftists refuse to embrace more patriotic trappings. Progressivism is patriotism. But a certain segment of both leftists and progressives steadfastly refuse to link patriotism with civil rights, labor, and other liberal issues like those.
But, yeah. Doesn't matter what Democrats do. The party is too diverse, so there's too many issues fighting amongst each other. Progressives accept the best options available, even when it's a lesser of two evils, but leftists don't.
> And of course if Democrats moved away from liberal issues like civil rights to focus on more leftist issues like taxing corporations and the rich, it would alienate progressive voters.
No. It would not. You're mistaking cause and effect here.
Democrats leaned into left wing social causes because their donors don't want left wing fiscal policy. That's why Democrats campaigned on abortion rather than raising minimum wage.
Democrats support a lot of things they don't talk about much. Things like trans rights and abortion have been given center stage because it helps them pick up the left wing vote without angering their donors. Not because economic messages are unpopular with their base.
1% lmao. Take a look at how many make less than 14 an hour. What minimum wage would be if it was increased to match inflation, like boomer social security payments.
Nearly 20 million Americans make less than what minimum wage was in the 1960's
You realize that most companies pay 5 cents over minimum wage specifically so they can push "nobody pays minimum wage" propaganda to smoothbrains right? Companies aren't stupid and they know a ton of Americans are.
Look man, all I'm saying is if Kamala were willing to say Vance's mom faked the breast cancer to not talk to him anymore she would have gotten way more votes.
Decorum is for a better time, not the country we have.
Exactly and I think that's what Democrats don't seem to get. Always playing defensive on repubs lie. Start a scandal that would force repubs to go on defensive to control the narrative. From "they are eating the dogs and cats" to "trans women are taking over sports". We all know it's a lie but Democrats have to defend themselves coz the media loves the drama
I’m gonna say it fuck them seriously I’d rather have this this whole experiment burned to the ground then constantly having to cater to people who feel some type of way because other groups decide to speak out and advocate for their issues
You can't be pro-working class and support illegal immigration. They directly compete with working class people for homes and jobs. If you supports illegal immigration you are, necessarily, anti-working class Americans.
I found myself here wondering how these survey questions were actually phrased. When I asked myself the questions as phrased in this article, the answer was usually "it depends." I think they may be asking very complicated questions in a simplistic way that kind of obfuscates people's actual opinions on the matter. This is why surveys have very limited value in understanding people's processes. Conversation would go much farther.
This is such nonsense. Dems are pro union, pro white collar, blue collar, no collar. Republicans haven't done shit for the working or middle class in generations, yet somehow it's dems that are out of touch with the working class.
The truth is, Americans are fucking ignorant about politics. It's that simple.
Well, they destroyed the working class in this country. Clinton with his NAFTA, a republican plan passed by Democrats. So is there any wonder they have a working class problem? They forgotten their core and it’s not corporate entities. It’s blue-collar workers and until they purge the party of these corporate country destroyers they’re gonna have a problems.
Did anyone here actually read the article? I thought it was pretty spot on, even if I agree with the Democrats on many points and not the “working class”. I don’t think the Dems understand how much they do not resonate with the group they believe they champion. I think a similar thing is happening with moderates
I assume they took a quick glance at the county list for the MI US Senate primary and saw "Ann Arbor" for AES and then went off of that, lol. Ann Arbor is a college town, and is somewhat affluent.
Completely ignores that Oakland County, which has Bloomfield township, West Bloomfield and a number of other incredibly affluent areas (like, mansion affluent) all went for Stevens.
It also ignores he was basically neck-and-neck with Stevens in Wayne county, which is where Detroit is. You know, the poorest Metro city in our entire country?
Imagine trying to paint AES (my candidate) as someone with less working class support (I'm working class) and more support from wealthier people.
It feels like the author started from the point they wanted to make and went from there.
The problem is that while working class people would rather go hungry then see any tax dollars benefit black or brown people. That racist crap put Trump and Reagan in the White House. It’s kept us back as a country for decades. And until we reckon with it, nothing will change.
The populist left is not solving the Democratic Party’s core 21st-century problem, which is the erosion of support among non-college, low-information voters who we sometimes call the “working class.” They are making it considerably worse. The DSA is extremely white, extremely urban and is -22 points among those without a college degree. Getting rid of Thanksgiving, calling it "chest feeding" instead of breast feeding and letting your niece's rapist out of prison isn't popular with anyone who went to work at an HVAC business right after high school, no matter what their race is.
Isn’t that kind of an insurmountable problem, then? Republican voters love anecdotal evidence. So as long as some Democrats in this country of 350 million people are involved in isolated incidents of not celebrating Thanksgiving, calling it “chest feeding” or a criminal going free, they’re going to latch onto that and attribute that to all Democrats, like they’ve been doing for years. It’s like playing whack a mole. Once one dumb thing happens involving a Democrat, the entire party gets the blame. But if a bunch of Republicans get caught raping kids, it’s just a few bad apples.
Shapiro is pulling Assad numbers in a purple state. Jared Golden was one of the more popular politicians in the country. Ossof is crushing it in Georgia. It is not that hard.
We've got no problem beating Republicans with these kinds of candidates. Quick question: How many candidates ever endorsed by Our Revolution or Justice Democrats have flipped a GOP congressional seat blue? I'll give you a hint--it's the only integer less than one 1.
Idiotic talking points that play right off of right wing stereotypes. Like, at no point has it ever been close to a policy goal to get rid of Thanksgiving. And what's with "letting your niece's rapist out of prison?" The current Preaident is, literally, a rapist!
The shit you are saying is literally what a Fox News anchor would say with nothing to back it up. Don't act like it's wise, actionable policy advice.
Abolishing the current system of policing we have where they get to act as unaccountable, over-armed, and under-trained thugs to the tune of a combined 20bn annual across the nation is absolutely valid. It’s disgusting and weird the way cops are here and it’s a systemic problem.
What I can complain about is morons taking everything in bad faith because they want to. That’s it, it’s just narcissism. You have a way you view the world that suits you and you don’t want to change it based on objective fact and it’s somehow everyone else’s problem.
I mean, you're sort of proving my point. In general, I think people would be happier with less death, abuse, corruption, and wasted resources. But Republicans spin it as being "Soft on crime."
I would, except time after time when liberal policies are explained in a neutral way, people prefer them. It's like how republican voters hated Obamacare but loved the Affordable Care Act
That does appear to be a two-way street when put at the level of culture wars. Which are nothing more than a strategy to ensure that people in groups that have every reason to have common economic cause for example don’t join forces.
I’m not required to vote for anyone just because they want me to - no matter how desperate they are. And they don’t have to cheat either or break the law either. For what it’s worth boasting about cheating and actually breaking the law is a really good way to make sure I never vote for someone like that regardless of their party. Everyone has to earn my vote.
All I ask of candidates who want to represent me is to demonstrate to me that they will follow the constitution and the law and keep their promises. And if they will vote in Congress overall in a moral manner (per Matthew 25 : 40-45) that doesn’t screw me and everyone in my community regardless of income into the ground so much the better.
And they better bring their A game because I’m not easily distracted by lies.
Is the white working class so different from that? Why would anyone vote against their own best interests. I mean, if you’re going to be selfish, at least vote for yourself.
We opened the 2024 DNC with a land acknowledgement. Kamala Harris said *into a camera* that the Federal Government should provide and pay for gender reassignment surgery to immigrants who came here illegally and were incarcerated. The DSA released a platform just weeks ago and it includes: abolishing prisons, defunding the Pentagon, abolishing national borders and establishing government ownership of large corporations.
The complement you’re supposed to pay leftists is that they at least know what they believe in and fight for it — but you’re also supposed to think it’s cringe and absurd to take anything nutty any of them say seriously. Which is it?
given that the majority of voters who vote Republican are white, I would not necessarily say that this is a 'bad' thing -- if anything, based off historical racist grievances, having a DSA full of PoCs who went around trying to convince blue collar white people socialism is the answer would backfire horribly.
Submission statement: Author Nicholas Jacobs is a political scientist who has spent a lot of time talking to working-class and rural voters. He bucks the conventional wisdom that the problem the Democrats have with working-class voters is that workers have strayed from the Democrats who aren't speaking to workers' economic grievances.
Instead, he argues that the Democrats have strayed from the workers' worldview.
I'm a PoC who studies white rural conservative American history and culture and I live near ranches and despite my ethnicity, because I managed to address the issues of rural America I have some measure of respect from them
What an insane framing. That progressives are struggling to solve. As if moderates aren't in the same boat and trying to solve it by co-opting the affordability rhetoric of progressives.
Reminder that Bernie massively over-performed with those working class first-time voters that Trump turned out in 2016.
Nfk, DSA is primarily college educated whites who don't have any of the survival worries facing the working class. They are campaigning on an agenda that kept working class voters from voting for Harris and Dems in 2024
The problem is that Democrats tie themselves to issues that certainly affect many people but become cultural battles, like trans bathroom stuff, and that they are tied to the "working class" which is just defined as the needier people. Once people stop being needy they stop identifying with the Democrats.
I get that the whole trans "issue" is a non-issue for many but the underlying problems are there for many. Instead of side-stepping the issue by saying that businesses should be able to decide who uses what, including what trans people use, and that single-use bathrooms are never an issue, and so maybe we'll give tax breaks for bathroom renovations, they dug into it and questioned the humanity of people who aren't able to process a lot of questions, and had no question about what it meant to be a man or woman. Maybe the long game would have been better. That's not throwing trans people under the bus, it's acknowledging that our governmental system allows for a range of expression. It's why MA and VT were able to have gay marriage before others. All you need are people to pave the way, like with dispensaries. When people see the world isn't burning and when younger people come up used to things then it isn't the biggest deal. But no, it had to be a FOX-news article argument with your uncle who's on FB too much and posts the same photo of him in his truck with sunglasses on.
The second part is just that poorer immigrants will be a Democratic base but immigrants are the "least American" kind of people we have. I get it - they're supposed to be the real Americans, but let's think about how dumb that is. If anyone here moved to Switzerland and worked as a janitor would you be the epitome of a Swiss person? No. If you moved to Ecuador and started a business would you be a true Ecuadorian? No. America for most is not some economic zone. Founding Fathers were right to build a land they saw as being one where people were free to build themselves up but they were comparing it to the Old World which still has a class system in many ways. It's a new era. Democrats want votes from people who basically can't vote and often times hold very conservative views anyway, or who end up with money and vote conservative like everyone else. I think Democrats have given platforms to well-educated immigrants and people see that and vote for a candidate that reflects them but in the grander scheme that is getting old. Democrats' plan of getting newer Americans to outshine the older ones doesn't work when over time one becomes the other. Look at all the non-White voting blocs that are still really conservative. That's not a problem to "solve", that's part of their culture, just like anyone else's.
I think Democrats are the best politicians for the country we have or want to get back but we also know nobody actually wants what we used to have. Hard to sell people on a party like that. It shouldn't make people wonder why nationalist parties that adopt more "leftist" views often do a bit better than anyone expected, and why it's emerging more and more that you can vote for healthcare and call someone a slur at the same time. You can want a clean environment and not want a rainbow flag to have so many colors. You can disagree, obviously, and I'm not always going to be right, but I think in general I am, and the only thing I can say is that we had four years of Donald Trump then Biden and our country still went back to Trump. We will do this again if nothing changes.
There is no Democrat tying themselves to the “trans bathroom stuff” except to deflect the ridiculous bigoted noise coming from trans-obsessed witch hunting Republicans. They scream and cry and bleat on about how much they care about the genitals of every single person entering the public restroom and insist they aren’t weird for it. You don’t get to have questions about another persons right to basic human dignity in public. Not sorry, earnestly turn it sideways and shove it.
I’m not reading the rest of your garbage since it’s built on a basis of disingenuous slop being rebranded as a “losing issue” by bigoted freaks.
E: spare me, if you want to hide your posts so bad then keep em hidden from everyone by not posting.
We don't get to pick the battles our opponents try to begin, but we get to pick how we respond. Democrats responded very poorly, and in today's age where proxies for each party are often more important than the party (e.g. Planned Parenthood for the left, NRA for the right), it's very clear that this was just one mistake. It's not the only.
The leadership of the Democratic party is neither progressive, nor friendly to the working class. They are the not bigotted friends of big business, opposed to the party of bigotted friends of big business.
Thing is, the working class has wised up to this. The jig is up, and the people in charge are still the same deer in the headlights that they were on November 9th, 2016.
Bawbawian | 17 days ago
Democrats main problem is an unwillingness to lie to everybody.
their second biggest problem is not having billionaires buy up all of social media and the news in order to carry water for said lies.
we hit critical mass of stupid in this country and now people want to hear simple solutions to their complex problems.
we will not be pulling out of this spiral anytime soon.
Democrats might do well in the next election and then do well in the presidential election after that and then the following midterm election will be a bloodbath because Democrats weren't able to solve all of the world's problems and fix all of America's problems within that 18 month window.
Head_Car_616 | 17 days ago
There is a political theory that the American body politic views conservatives as the default and only when they do awful things do they get reprimanded by the populace electing a democrat and then when people feel and though the nation is stabilized they reinstall the GOP which does awful things and rinse and repeat. We need to get people to view the GOP as the bad party and the democrats as the default for good American governance.
How do we do that when the oligarchs bought all the media up for their preferred fascist party?
I don’t know.
SilverMedal4Life | 17 days ago
Makes me think of that Simpson's quote.
"Your guilt may convince you to vote Democrat, but what you really want is a coldhearted Republican to lower taxes, brutalize crimimals, and rule you like a king."
I think about that a lot. It seems like it's just... true. That Americans view conservatives as terrible yet vote them in anyway, as if they had no choice.
PersistentBadger | 17 days ago
"They like a bit of stick" - Francis Urquhart commenting on the British electorate in the original House of Cards.
Dulwilly | 16 days ago
That's literally what I was told as a kid, that conservatives want things to remain the same. And it took me time to realize that conservatives are reactionary. They want the world to revert to a past that never existed and cannot exist.
Cosmic_Seth | 16 days ago
Majority of Americans, today, still believes the GOP is better for the economy than democrats.
Until that changes, Republicans will be the default.
TorkBombs | 16 days ago
True, telling and insane. The last three presidents -- Biden, Obama and Clinton -- each had to clean up an economic mess left by Republican presidents. Every recession we have had in the last 40 years happened under Republicans.
reidfan1 | 16 days ago
[ Removed by Reddit ]
JudasZala | 15 days ago
While also continuing the neoliberal direction started by Carter.
Reagan not only picked up where Carter left off, he accelerated it as well.
Don’t blame Reagan for introducing neoliberalism and everything that comes with it; blame Carter.
TheNavidsonLP | 17 days ago
My belief is that most people view the Democrats as the only party with agency. Healthcare isn't solved in two years? It's the Democrats' fault! Gas is too high? It's the Democrats' fault! There's government fraud and waste? Democrats to blame again! Meanwhile, Republicans can do horrible things but that's all kind of ignored because the Democrats are the ones who are supposed to fix it or stop it.
anchorwind | 17 days ago
>only party with agency
There are two reasons for that.
The GOP has been openly corrupt since Nixon without any semblance of accountability.
One of their core messages is 'Government doesn't work' and they ensure their message is proven true to the best of their ability.
gking407 | 15 days ago
That message is so deeply cynical and sinister. The result is people trust Republicans and distrust Democrats, and that perspective has been allowed to calcify for over half a century. No wonder US struggles to pull itself out of this quagmire.
summane | 17 days ago
"Dems didn't fix the sabotage, better vote in more saboteurs to convince them to DO THEIR JOB"
Head_Car_616 | 17 days ago
More like “the GOP default gov has been sufficiently punished and the nation has been dug out of the hole the GOP made, time to reinstall the default GOP gov since everything is fixed and they’ve done their time standing in the corner.”
mcr55 | 17 days ago
Obama made obamacare his marquee policy and now healthcare is more expensive than ever.
Who should be blamed for that one?
SteelyEyedHistory | 17 days ago
Republicans spent every opportunity to gut it and protect insurance companies. Every state was supposed to have their own exchange. Every state was supposed to expand medicaid. But Republicans through a tantrum and got the courts to block both.
Head_Car_616 | 17 days ago
Joe Lieberman
Senator Joe Lieberman played a decisive role in shaping the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) by blocking the government-run public health insurance option and forcing the removal of a proposed Medicare buy-in for people aged 55 to 64. Because Democrats held a razor-thin Senate majority and needed 60 votes to overcome filibusters, Lieberman's threat to oppose the legislation effectively doomed those provisions.
But we don’t have long enough memories for that shit, right America? Lmao the insurance companies lobbied Joe to hold everything up unless they were let into the talks and then they made sure to gut the whole thing so that we still have to get raped by insurance companies.
So since legislation didn’t work, but there was a massive uptick in approved claims after Luigi struck back against the insurance companies… what do you all think is the most appropriate way forward and ensuring we get what we the people NEED?
Luigi showed you the way and the founders were explicit in their texts. We know what to do. We are simply cowards.
RIP America. Exceptional be her grave.
TheWorclown | 17 days ago
I feel that’s actually the opposite: we have ran out of simple problems to have solutions to.
We have some deeply complex problems that not only lack but require no simple answers to. And that involves conversations that Dems are unwilling to have (especially establishment corporate Dems) and Repubs would rather condense it down for their own messaging.
Y2020 | 17 days ago
This isn’t a dem only problem. Voters are going to punish the party in power until problems get solved. For the first time being the incumbent is a negative mark.
Junior_Abalone_8006 | 17 days ago
>Democrats main problem is an unwillingness to lie to everybody.
>their second biggest problem is not having billionaires buy up all of social media and the news in order to carry water for said lies.
The answer to your second point is that Hillary outspent Trump by 2 to 1 in 2016. Biden 3-1, Kamala 2.5-1.
And they did it mostly with wall street and corporate and billionaire money.
Which answers your first point.
Those are not the reasons why Democrats are not doing well.
SteelyEyedHistory | 17 days ago
You have to compare campaign spending to dark money. Campaign money has a lot of rules around it. Dark money doesn’t.
Junior_Abalone_8006 | 17 days ago
As is talked about elsewhere in the thread, best estimates are that Dem dark money advantage in 2024 was 2 to 1 as well.
ShamPain413 | 17 days ago
Trump was funded by dark money to an astounding degree, and that's just on ads. There is no data whatsoever on payments to influencers, esp in the manosphere and wellness communities.
Trump was never out-spent, it's just a question of what is being measured.
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/dark-money-hit-record-high-19-billion-2024-federal-races
I_Tell_You_Wat | 17 days ago
Yep. I remember seeing in 2016 that Trump got billions in free TV coverage.
Nevermind the constant rural talk radio that is all conservative all the time, or the Cambridge Analytica data scandal, or like you mention, many other factors. It's not just the few months before the election, Republicans have made it central to their identity and think Democrats are just evil because that's the world they live in
Junior_Abalone_8006 | 17 days ago
You obv didn't read your own link. The same report indicates Dem dark spending on money was again about 2-1 compared to republicans.
"Overall, dark money groups boosting Democrats put up about $1.2 billion to influence 2024 elections, while groups boosting Republicans accounted for about $664 million."
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/dark-money-hit-record-high-19-billion-2024-federal-races
OP at top of thread asserted Dems don't lie to everyone, but they do in fact lie to everyone including themselves.
PaulsGrafh | 17 days ago
I’m confused about this link. Didn’t Musk spend roughly $250 million on his own? This link only mentions $35 million of his spending.
Junior_Abalone_8006 | 17 days ago
It only mentioned explicitly one PAC that musk donated to. Apparently not all explicitly.
PaulsGrafh | 17 days ago
So out of $660 million that went to Republicans, Musk contributed to more than a third of that? It’s just odd to me that the article would only comment on $35 million of the $250 million he spent, and not even mention the fact that he spent $250 million in the first place.
ShamPain413 | 17 days ago
I did read it. And I pre-emptively responded to your selective reading of that one part of the article:
>There is no data whatsoever on payments to influencers, esp in the manosphere and wellness communities. ... Trump was never out-spent, it's just a question of what is being measured.
You responding with "yeah but look at what was measured" is thus a non sequitur.
As a commenter below mentions, we know for a fact that many forms of pro-GOP spending aren't in those data. We just don't know how much. But it's very unlikely that the political coalition with all the richest people in it spent less money. It's much, much more likely that the system is so corrupt that we have no clue how much they spent.
PaulsGrafh | 17 days ago
Ok, your point makes more sense to me. This report doesn’t even go into detail on Musk’s $250 million spent on the last election, which was bizarre to me.
Junior_Abalone_8006 | 17 days ago
Um. The coalition with the most rich people in it is the Democrats, and has been for a while.
Here's what the report has to say:
"Several other types of election spending by dark money groups have not been included in this analysis because they are difficult or impossible to track. As noted, not all online platforms release spending data, and none publishes data on certain forms of expenditures, like paid influencers. This analysis also does not include data for radio ads that are not reported to the FEC, and, as mentioned above, streaming video applications and some TV spending. Other forms of communication, like billboards and flyers, are also generally left out of FEC data unless they expressly advocate for or against a candidate."
My take is that it's implied that the uncounted/uncountable spending is considered by this report to be a small fraction of what it does count. Maybe I'm wrong but if you are going to make up a claim about secret billionaires secretly getting guys you don't like over the threshold I'd like to see some backing for that. Because we've constantly been seeing this cope narrative from Dems, when really I think it's an excuse for why they've been so demonstrably bad at using the money they've been given. It's like a party of nepobabies just out of college making the major election decisions. Following the last election, my impression is that the Dems heavily spent on 'paid influencers', one of the categories mentioned above that aren't trackable. That... didn't turn out very well based on anectdata at least.
ShamPain413 | 17 days ago
>My take is that it's implied that the uncounted/uncountable spending is considered by this report to be a small fraction of what it does count.
We don't have to speculate with #takes, they tell us that isn't true:
>Therefore, the $1.9 billion figure reported in this analysis necessarily — and perhaps substantially — underestimates the true scale of dark money spending in 2024.
Btw, this is just dark money, this is not all spending. Elon buying Twitter and turning it into a campaign organ for the Trump campaign is not included, but it definitely happened, and definitely mattered. That one expenditure outweighs all Democratic spending by many multiples, and Elon was repaid with gobs of federal contracts plus DOGE.
This is another common narrative that is wrong:
>Um. The coalition with the most rich people in it is the Democrats, and has been for a while.
Many highly-educated people support Democrats, some of whom are high income. But I didn't say high income. I said "the most rich people". The top-1%, the tech CEOs, the Koch family, the Ellison family, Elon, the "billionaires" that Bernie and Mamdani talk about constantly, the generational wealth. They support Trump, not Democrats, as does the small business community (which is very large) and management of the megacorps. Yes, college professors and NYT editors vote Democrat, and they have above-average household incomes, but that does not mean that Republicans are not supported by the rich. They are. That hasn't changed.
>It's like a party of nepobabies just out of college making the major election decisions.
What we really need are more Nazi-adjacent oyster farmers (with rich parents) who sexually assault GOP operatives, amirite?
You guys think winning one Senate primary is the same as winning the presidency and both houses. The difficult reality is that Rust Belt progressives like Feingold and Brown are being driven out, not by "establishment Dems" but by voters. Progressives have been contesting races for years, they've just been losing. Maybe El-Sayed can stem the tide, but for every one of him there are three Ossoffs and Talaricos and Osbornes. Social media has made progressives much louder, but that has not translated into more progressive victories, and the reason is because progressives aren't very good at coalition-building. Maybe part of that is because they are constantly attacking the party they are running under, which damages the party's reputation and demoralizes potential voters.
Junior_Abalone_8006 | 17 days ago
>turning it into a campaign organ for the Trump campaign is not included, but it definitely happened, and definitely mattered. That one expenditure outweighs all Democratic spending by many multiples, and Elon was repaid with gobs of federal contracts plus DOGE.
You can believe this if you think that all social media were perfectly objective and non partisan prior to Twitter being acquired. And if you're deep in a bubble that might be a reasonable belief. However, those of us who weren't in a bubble or seeking a cope for Dem's general cluelessness know it isn't true. Musk's acquisition of Twitter forced the de-facto censorship of the industry to ease.
>What we really need are more Nazi-adjacent oyster farmers (with rich parents) who sexually assault GOP operatives, amirite?
From what I've read that's the nepobabies problem the Dems have again e.g. https://www.politico.com/news/2026/07/17/platner-is-finished-does-the-same-fate-await-the-out-of-state-consultants-who-recruited-him-01002652
>Social media has made progressives much louder, but that has not translated into more progressive victories, and the reason is because progressives aren't very good at coalition-building.
We are agreed on that, but I'd say it's more because of arrogance and control over the media the progs enjoyed starting in the Obama years. They didn't have to be good at coalition building then. They could just steamroll over any objections or unpopularity.
kenlubin | 17 days ago
Democrats are only broadcasting ads during the election cycle.
Republicans own the big cable TV channels and the local TV channels and the AM radio shows and the Spanish-language radio channels and are broadcasting propaganda all day every day all year every year.
Junior_Abalone_8006 | 17 days ago
IMO it is laughable to claim that Repubs have and have always had media supremacy over the Dems. Not only is it cope, but it's evidence again IMO that you are deep in a bubble that has no clue of what is happening in the rest of the country.
kenlubin | 17 days ago
Sorry, I can see how that would be interpreted as "have always had media supremacy". I had been thinking of the past couple of years and the near future when writing that comment. Particularly, I had been thinking of a story where Democrats were clapping themselves in the back for running campaign ads in Spanish on Spanish-language radio in South Florida. A Republican donor then bought the radio station.
Fox News and the other Republican owned and aligned media don't take alternating years off the way Democratic media campaigns do.
kazh_9742 | 17 days ago
Spending on a campaign isn't the same as being carried indefinitely and having the entire social ecosystem bought and skewed to pull for you. Those are precicely the reasons the Democrats lose elections, regardless how many times Bernie Sanders spits the same tired routine about the Dems letting down the working class on his yearly sound bite tours.
Junior_Abalone_8006 | 17 days ago
LOL this is evidence of being in a total immersion bubble. If you look at just the scandals that emerged from social media alone in the Biden years it's enough to completely obliterate this cope. Or watch the faces of the newscasters on election night 2016 and to a lesser extent 2024. Whatever ails the Democratic party, it's not lack of media bootlicking of their agenda. But of course it's the most convenient belief to have if you are bought into Democratic elites desire to not be blamed for any of their mistakes.
kazh_9742 | 17 days ago
You have a serious aversion to reality that anyone who was alive then can call you out on. If there was a liberal bias lean, Trump wouldn't have made it past his campaign. Even Bush Jr wouldn't have squeaked by.
How you can put on an act with an "LOL" after all of the stations and outlets that ran interference for Trump from the start ended up getting bought out and taken over anyway to finally drop the mask is the real comedy. That's on top of Musk buying out Twitter and Synclair spreading their reach even further.
Junior_Abalone_8006 | 17 days ago
Indeed? Who were these outlets and stations? Lol, and lol again. If you think that the media was on net biased towards Trump you really should try broadening your reading.
Good excuse to post this pretty funny compilation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G87UXIH8Lzo
kazh_9742 | 17 days ago
Even the outlets that pretended to lean liberal pulled for Trump and Bush before him. You're either seriously gullible or you're complicit. Those same outlets are now getting bought out or targeted to be bought out like I said before to go fully mask off even though they played their game.
All of those nervous "lol"s are the real cope.
Junior_Abalone_8006 | 17 days ago
So, you think that most of the media were predicting a Trump win and were enthusiastic about it? That everyone was unshocked that Trump won?
Me, I don't watch much boomer news anymore and wouldn't know, but it would not surprise me that e.g. CNN, CBS, et al is so little watched now that a young one would think that they weren't considered the major media at one time. But if you lived through it you'd know it.
Edit: You know, it's not really my job to convince everyone who is wrong on the internet that they are wrong. You go on believing the story that Republicans are actually the favored squirrels of the legacy media. It's not good for your long term happiness, but then again you're not going to be happy in any event and at least this way you'll have a simple reason for your unhappiness.
Hot-Statistician-955 | 16 days ago
> Billionaire money
So again was the solution to give power to a billionaire?
Did we want to cut out the middleman or something?
What a ridiculous thing to do if that is the reason you didn't like money in politics.
Several_Internet2350 | 16 days ago
Democrats lie, like all politicians, or they make promises that are very aspirational to put it in gentler terms. If you seriously think Trump is ruining the country because Democrats don't know how to lie or are unwilling to, you should hate the democrats for that failure. The part about billionaires is just not true (almost like a lie), democrats have plenty of billionaire donors.
YouandWhoseArmy | 16 days ago
The person you’re replying to is what dumb people think a smart opinion is.
It’s all specious reasoning and outright falsehoods. Basically cable news talking points.
ill_be_huckleberry_1 | 16 days ago
Thats the cycle because the dem establishment serves up half measures and and then when they get beaten, thry dont go on the attack against republicans. They roll over.
Thats changing.
Im not saying youre wrong, but I think the 2022 hangover could have been avoided we had a fighter in there rather than an old statesman way passed his prime. They may not have won as much as biden did, but they would have pushed the conversation about the republican obstructionist and forced it into the mainstream.
gking407 | 15 days ago
Are "half measures" from the Dems giving half effort or Republicans removing half of the support needed to get effective policies passed and working?
ill_be_huckleberry_1 | 15 days ago
Chuck schumer standing on stage after trump was elected and declaring that his #1 priority is keeping the democrats pro israel is an example of how broken dem establishment is.
Completely out of touch.
And if thats the kind of judgements the senate leader of dems displays how the hell can you trust him on any issue?
Jeffries is similar. Takes money from palantir but then rails against trumps overstepping the consitution.
Buts obviously nuanced. Republicans are attempting to take over america and make it a one party state.
Im not a fan of amy klobuchar. But Ill vote for her in November because shes better than the alternative.
pegar | 17 days ago
Completely agree. They're also not willing to do is break the law, but Reddit loves to criticize them constantly for it.
Democracy is a social structure that we've created. If you remove the foundational premise, which are the laws governing everything, then everything is made up and meaningless.
thethundering | 17 days ago
I mean probably the biggest reason they’re not willing to break the law is because they still will absolutely be punished for it, by legal enforcement mechanisms and by voters.
It’s so frustrating whenever I see people on the left act like Trump/conservatives getting away with it means that anyone could get away with it if they simply wanted to.
Western-Customer-536 | 17 days ago
Wow, that is a complete lie.
The Democrats lie all the time. We’ve accepted it as “the price of doing business.” Did you notice how Trump seems to be doing whatever he wants with complete impunity? Obama could have done that and more when he had a Supermajority or “only” 59 Democrats in the Senate. He and they didn’t want to. They thought things like guaranteeing Abortion Rights under federal law “wasn’t important.” And single payer “wasn’t feasible.”
See the DSA New York Mayor who solved…every problem New York City has had for decades inside of a few months?
The Democrats lies, corruption, incompetence, arrogance, and stupidity is what gave us Trump in the first place. Hillary Clinton herself came up with the “Pied Piper” strategy and encouraged her husband’s ex to run so she wouldn’t have to cater to the electorate at all when she ran for president.
Dull_Bird3340 | 16 days ago
He's mayor of a majority Democratic city, he can do what he wants, he doesn't have a Senate or Congress or SCOTUS w equal powers that tries to stop or alter everything he tries. There is no comparison.
Oskiee | 17 days ago
"Democrats main problem is an unwillingness to lie to everybody. "
Oh you sweet sweet naive child.
abcamurComposer | 17 days ago
Yeah if anything Dems lie a TON and no one trusts them
That’s why progressives are winning
Negative_Jaguar_4138 | 17 days ago
I have heard more lies from progressives and the DSA in the last few years than I have heard lies from establishment Dems.
I have heard out of touch comments, comments where its clear they are wrong but not lying, as well as really poor communication, but the Dems aren't big liars.
That trophy belongs to populists.
Several_Internet2350 | 16 days ago
"I've heard comments that weren't true and everyone knew it was untrue, but those aren't lies".
Negative_Jaguar_4138 | 16 days ago
There is this amazing thing called being wrong.
Its possible people are wrong without lying. But given the context of statements being made from the sides, its clear American populists are largely liars.
Several_Internet2350 | 16 days ago
What is the difference? Being wrong is something people you agree with do, but lying is something populists do?
It's possible to believe someone is wrong without lying if you're willing to give the person some trust and accept that they are acting in good faith, which will happen a lot more with people you agree with compared to the people you are opposed.
abcamurComposer | 17 days ago
I do admit most of them, if not liars, are crazy. I.e. the “interracial marriage is colonization” lady.
But everytime the establishment dems chase this mythical “center” (i.e. Kamala campaigning with Cheneys) how is that not dishonest? Yeah people will go for the populists when they can no longer trust the establishment.
Negative_Jaguar_4138 | 17 days ago
I hate to break it to you, but by the rest of the Democratic World's standard, Harris was firmly center left and firmly progressive socially. No one outside of America saw her as a centrist.
TLDR: Americans populists across the political spectrum are about as dumb as each other.
The Amefican left are significantly more to the left of most European Social Democracies even though they belive they are similar. This distorts their view of how good the 'Centrist' Democrats actually are.
Your issue both on the left and right in America is none of you understand your policy system, you have such a large Overton window and the Dems still barely win. The Dems HAVE TO appeal to the moderate if they want to win.
Here in New Zealand, the Democratic party EASILY represents out entire political spectrum. People like Warren and Mamdania easily fit within the left wing faction of our Greens party, and people like Fetterman and Manchin would easily fit without our most right wing conservative party, New Zealand First.
And even with that massive coalition the Dems barley get 50% of the vote.
abcamurComposer | 17 days ago
The reason I believe though that calling yourself a “moderate”, at least in the US, is a political trap though, even though I’m all for balance and compromise, is because it’s hard to differentiate between a true “moderate” and someone who doesn’t really believe in anything, or who will say anything to get elected, or who is too afraid to do what is needed to enact change. A lot of Republicans were once so-called moderates (for example the late Lindsey Graham) until Trump came along and oh no they have to change their tune and now they knowtow to Trumpism. We are beginning to see this with the Dem Party too.
Can we trust those feckless “moderates” to govern our country when they so clearly are only interested in furthering themselves?
I always think about Hamilton endorsing his political enemy Thomas Jefferson because Burr was one of those “moderates”. In the US we basically associate “centrist” with “opportunist”.
Several_Internet2350 | 16 days ago
Harris was a centrist in 2024 because she was the VP of Joe Biden that took over and had no meaningful left wing agenda. in 2020 she did terribly in the primary with some progressive rhetoric and support for medicare for all, back then she was considered to be progressive, but she did terribly in that primary.
"The American left" is basically non existent. Most nations have a multi party parlaimentary system, because the US does not have that, the two major parties are economically to the right of the rest of the world. In what country does the "working class vote" shift to the conservatives purely based on cultural grievances? One in which there is no economic policy for workers to support.
If you saw Harris as progressive, it was probably because she was younger and black, people thought Obama was progressive for similar reasons without any other knowledge of the guy. In Australia, she was just seen as the sane choice between her and Trump.
Mamdani is a NY mayor, and he is the most radical politician most know of, because he champions policies that have been part of most Green Parties in countries like NZ for decades, the NZ labour party describes itself as democratic socialist. Bernie Sanders has spent his life as an independent, outside of the Democratic Party. Elizabeth Warren is just a boring democrat that believes in regulating wall st.
I have no idea why you think these Democrats would belong in the left of the Green party (which itself is only more progressive on social issues compared to Labour).
Negative_Jaguar_4138 | 16 days ago
You are so misinformed about everything you said. But that's fitting considering you come from the Florida of the planet.
Joe Biden pushed through more left wing and pro-union policies compared to Jacinda Adern and he did that with a divided government vs supermajority here.
Labour are Social Democrats, which are a form of Capitalist. Even the Greens Party is largely Capitalist. Mamdani would sit perfectly at the left fringe of the Greens. Labour hasn't practiced anything even tangentially related to Socialism in the last 3 decades.
But you do you, keep being a cunt and keep purity testing already progressive politicians because they are only 99% as pure as you are.
Several_Internet2350 | 16 days ago
lol come on man, do you really want to do this fake aussie v nz thing? I don't care, you have a great country.
The fact that you think Adern was less pro labour because Biden "pushed through more pro Union policies" that NZ labour passed decades ago and has maintained. That's what a Labour party does. He didn't increase the minimum wage, used anti union legislation to stop a railway strike. While he did more than most presidents and made unions a big part of his presidency, the US is still very far behind NZ in terms of worker rights, which has been upheld by the SCOTUS so congress and the white house don't even bother trying to get American's the same standards that other workers in the West have.
Thinking Biden is more "pro union" than Adern (or any Labour government) because he tried to play a bit of catch up (and really, not that much) doesn't hold up.
Mamdani is also a capitalist like Labour and the Greens, so what's your point? Both like to use the word "socialist" when it suites them. Mamdani is radical in the context of the US, his policies aren't radical in Australia or most of Europe. He is also just a mayor, comparing him to national parties doesn't work that well. AOC is considered the most progressive Democrat in national politics, and she isn't that left wing compared to most Labour parties either. The Green New Deal was her big thing for a while, and the actual policies in it were again, playing catch up with environmental regulations and worker safety that most other countries had already introduced.
"the left fringes of the Greens" makes me think you don't engage much with left wing politics in NZ or the US. The Greens are environmentalists, not radical leftists. Over the past decade or two most Greens parties have been leaning into more left wing economic populism as Labour parties loses their influence amongst workers, but Greens parties are usually focused on the environment, then social issues like drug legalisation, and stay away from most issues, and usually want to avoid the label of "radical lefties" by pushing for policies the way Mamdani has been doing.
>But you do you, keep being a cunt and keep purity testing already progressive politicians because they are only 99% as pure as you are.
this is weirdly hostile, if you are from NZ then why are you this agitated by US politics? Especially when the conversation is as subjective as comparing different countries politicians.
abcamurComposer | 16 days ago
I believe the person you are responding to is using a ton of words to basically say they are an enlightened centrist
Aksama | 17 days ago
Dems are also “the resistance” to the GOP and they can only actually enact small measures because their corporate owners wouldn’t ever allow them to provide Medicare for all, increase the minimum age (maybe a one-time increase in 3 years) or address climate change in a functional manner.
The GOP can get by because their supporters love evil shit. Dems struggle because they try to promise a better tomorrow that they can’t really deliver on too often because it would be slightly less profits for the Capital class.
GoblinToHobgoblin | 16 days ago
I think this entirely misses the point of the article.
They talked about how the Democrats were out of touch with working class voters, even gave specific examples of issues, and yet it's framed as this unsolveable problem by so many people...
TheHaplessBard | 16 days ago
This and also the fact that the political right in the United States has completely and shamelessly abdicated its responsibility to even pretend to tell the truth nowadays and hold their most egregious members accountable. They are literally a cult consumed by complete and utter mass hysteria in which imaginary problems with radical solutions become party gospel.
Supreme_Salt_Lord | 15 days ago
Just give the voters something to chew on and be transparent. Give us simple wins, 4 day work week, anti union busting laws. These are laws that done need heaven and earth moved. Simple legislation
TerminalHighGuard | 17 days ago
The MAMDANI approach CAN work here. They need to be PRESENT and VISIBLE and REAL. Potholes, etc. Yes you’re only going to get a portion of them but that’s ok. Anyone who doesn’t listen didn’t want to in the first place.
FederalSandwich1854 | 16 days ago
Democrats don't have billionaires buy up media?
Did you even pay attention to this race? Haley Stevens (a democrat) got $60+ mil in corporate donations and bought every ad space to smear Abdul
UnlimitedCalculus | 17 days ago
It would also help if democrats would actually commit to socialist policies rather than be another capitalist party that rainbow-washes itself to appeal to a different set of voters.
anewe | 17 days ago
democrats main problem is refusing to admit mistakes. posts like this are a good example
Squat420 | 16 days ago
Democrats lie cheat and steal like the rest of them. The problem is they try to placate to the right and it’s pissing off the left/far-left to the point they are choosing socialism. It’s weakening the party and enabling republicans to continue this mess.
Life long Dems need to step aside and let the young party member take charge.
beaaaaaaaans | 17 days ago
Democrats main problem is actually that they don't represent the people they want to vote for them. Over and over a popular point will just get us told "here's why we can't do it and you should expect less". That's not going to motivate anyone to vote, it just makes them look useless
beetnemesis | 17 days ago
People keep trying to come up with wise, reasonable reasons why low-information voters vote the way they do.
It's because they are low-information. You don't want to call them stupid, fine, but they're fed a concentrated diet of propaganda that reinforces the only thing they DO know, tribalism.
It's not "the economy, stupid." It's not policies.
For literally 18 years, it has been "Democrats are evil. Anything they do is bad, and the republican party exists to oppose anything they do." That's all it is. If a concept is put forward by a Democrat, Republicans oppose it. If a bill is sponsored by a Democrat, Republicans vote against it.
And that messaging has reinforced itself over literal decades, so you have deep-red voters who cannot even imagine voting otherwise, as it would be a betrayal of their community, family, and selves.
AnalyticalAlpaca | 17 days ago
I agree with you. Their identities are so tied to Republicans that it barely matters what politicians do. I mean consider how much people care about sports teams which actually don’t impact their lives at all.
I don’t know what the solution is to populism like this. I’ve read that erosion in institutional trust pushes people into populism, but that seems hard to remedy when dumb people keep voting for politicians who make the situation even worse.
beetnemesis | 17 days ago
Honestly I think the actual solution is to destroy all large media conglomerates
horseradishstalker | 16 days ago
Why would anyone want to destroy the Fourth Estate - or the Constitution for that matter?
It would actually be more helpful if people were taught to take personal responsibility for their own thoughts. I have yet to see a large media corporation, or even a small one, put a gun to anyone’s head literally forcing anyone to think or believe anything.
What people think and believe is on them.
beetnemesis | 16 days ago
You Are Not Immune To Propoganda.
Neither am I.
Have you seen that video of dozens of news stations all saying the same opinion, verbatim?
Or even more subtle than that, simply choosing what to report, what not to, and how to frame it.
One man, even one company, being able to hugely influence things so easily, is horrible for democracy.
Saying "oh nobody is holding a gun to the viewers head and telling them what to think" is naive at best, and... just kind of dumb, otherwise.
Getting rid of large media companies is not "getting rid of the fourth estate," it's getting rid of news monopolies
horseradishstalker | 16 days ago
I was being polite. I can always tell when somebody hasn’t actually done their homework as to the backstory of whatever they’re complaining about. But, it’s not my job to school you. You have a few bits and pieces that are accurate and the rest just inaccurate. Once again. I’m being polite.
Several_Internet2350 | 16 days ago
> For literally 18 years, it has been "Democrats are evil. Anything they do is bad, and the republican party exists to oppose anything they do."
Those people you are describing are called "republicans" and you need to beat them, not try to win their votes.
recoveringleft | 17 days ago
And conservative Democratic voters are usually shunned by their magat bethren for not towing the line
beetnemesis | 17 days ago
I mean. What is a conservative Democrat voter? Conservative how, specifically?
recoveringleft | 17 days ago
I knew a Pro Life pro LGBTQ devout Catholic Hispanic lady who voted for the Democratic party because she fears ice. She's example of a conservative Democrat
beetnemesis | 17 days ago
Interesting. And to clarify, you're saying they're shunned by Republicans, or democrats, or both?
fuckracists79 | 17 days ago
By working class you mean white guys in trucker hats… forget that a single mother whose a nurse are the majority of the working class today.
cosmotheassman | 16 days ago
Thank you for pointing this out. The term "working class" has lost all meaning in these discussions because it's long been used as a euphemism to describe a form of blue collar work that has been on steady decline for decades.
yeahnototallycool | 16 days ago
Statistically no that’s not true, but even so you’re describing ann archetype that is also very likely to be conservative. Nurses ain’t the front line of the progressive army…
CaptainSparklebottom | 16 days ago
It is really a loaded term to refer to white men while ignoring that 95% of us our workers
cmndrnewt | 17 days ago
When hundreds of billions of dollars have been spent over the past 60 years to brainwash people into voting against their best interest by making them angry about stuff that doesn’t actually matter, of course it will be difficult to get those people to change their minds.
Barnard_Gumble | 17 days ago
As Twain said, “it’s easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled.”
UpbeatVeterinarian18 | 17 days ago
Here is something I am frustrated with. You can say these working class people care about stuff that doesn't actually matter, or is irrational, or is based on lies. And all that may be true. But those people vote. And if you are going to get them to vote for you, you need to offer something tangible to them. Because otherwise they will always, always, always go with the person who promises them easy solutions and a target for their grievances, because humans can be very, very stupid. It seems to
me that if people have a certain amount of material comfort they stop caring about marginal gains for themselves and more about protecting their immaterial wealth - their status, their social position, their sense of self-importance and righteousness.
cmndrnewt | 17 days ago
I guess what I’m saying is that once people have been programmed, there’s nothing the other side can offer that will get most of them to change their thinking. The issues that drive them don’t have tangible solutions Democrats would be able to offer without moving farther to the right.
GoblinToHobgoblin | 16 days ago
> without moving farther to the right
THIS is kind of the key point though...
Politicians are meant to represent the people. If the people dont want someone who is SO left wing, stop running candidates that are SO left wing..
cmndrnewt | 16 days ago
There is more nuance to it than that. First of all, Democrats don’t run people who are far left and a lot of what we are seeing is that ideas considered “far left” are actually popular. The billions of dollars my original comment is referring to have gone toward shaping the idea that “far left” is bad, or radical. The left in America would still be considered moderate in most developed counties. But here, Conservatives put so much effort into demonizing policies that help people, you can’t even use the word Socialist without someone talking some crazy bullshit about communism, or people gaming the system. Conservatives are reactionary, and don’t look at what will actually happen when socialist policies are in place. For example, regulations actually benefit small business, and they are bad for large corporations. But in America, corporate money has been blasting dog shit 24/7 into Republicans ears until it has become “common knowledge” that regulations are bad for small businesses. Rather than looking at the evidence right in front of their fucking eyes, that large corporations have paid to have everything deregulated to the point that they make it next to impossible for small businesses to compete. Another myth is that people who receive public benefits are lazy or abuse them, when all of the evidence shows only a small minority of people abuse public benefits, which are already a tiny fraction of our tax dollars which spend exponentially more on subsidizing corporations and funding endless war. The latest “radical left” policy that these billions of dollars have gone toward poisoning public opinion on is the idea that somehow trans people aren’t deserving of health care that their doctor has prescribed them. Republicans like to say that doctors are just handing out puberty blockers willy nilly to children, or giving minors gender affirming surgery. If Republicans gave a shit about the truth it wouldn’t take long to find out this isn’t happening, that the puberty blockers are given for genuine medical reasons and that there are no cases of minors getting these surgeries. Repubs will talk about how these medications cause cancer without pointing out the studies on how there may be a cancer risk were done on post menopausal women who are the largest population by far who receive the medication. Do they mention this risk to older women though? Fuck no, because it doesn’t fit the made up narrative that trans people’s lives are somehow their business. Billionaires and the corporate elite have created these arguments to cause division because they know that if Republican voters caught a fucking clue as to how bad they are getting screwed by the wealthy, they might actually help democrats do something about it. Instead we have a bunch of “concerned Christians” voting for people who hate the same people as them, and a law enforcement class who are convinced liberals are evil and will do whatever the fuck billionaires tell them to do, including squashing any kind of protest for change.
reganomics | 17 days ago
H. Clinton and Kamala had clear goals for poor areas like the Appalachians and the real problem is that mass media and social media are now in collision with the right wing and will never willingly give a voice to left wing. Clinton promoted training in renewables for the coal industry and Kamala talked about tax credits and assistance for first time home owners. Both times blue collar said fuck off even though those same people suffer more under trump.
A11U45 | 16 days ago
> real problem is that mass media and social media are now in collision with the right wing
The real problem was inflation, it wasn't Biden's fault (since it affected every country), but Trump clearly blamed it on Biden which is how he won the working class.
2024 was a year in which every incumbent party in the developed world lost votes.
GoblinToHobgoblin | 16 days ago
Trump had the working class in 2016 already, 2024 was just a continuation of that
Few_Map2665 | 16 days ago
no, he did not
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37922587
GoblinToHobgoblin | 16 days ago
This discusses some amount of low income voters, (52% of those below 50k), but doesn't really mention the "working class"
Few_Map2665 | 15 days ago
ohboy now you want to use your own unstated but im sure interesting definition of the working class because i made you look like a stupid and unskilled liar lol.
GoblinToHobgoblin | 16 days ago
Do you not see how, given the choice between "you can keep your job" vs "we want to get rid of your job but we'll train you for a new one", a LOT of people are going to prefer the first option??
Like, saying they tried to appeal to working class people there is borderline insulting..
flamehead2k1 | 16 days ago
trying to get rid of one industry then offering training for a new one isn't going to market well.
if you're 55 and worked in coal you're whole life, you're unlikely to want to switch to solar. especially if there's not enough installation work nearby.
dems didn't start by looking for what would help Appalachia and identify solar. they identified solar as a priority and then tried to push it where it only made limited sense
tax credits for first time homeowners keeps prices high and helps sellers.
DaneLimmish | 16 days ago
The Biden admin bailed out the teamster pension with like $35 BILLION dollars, teamsters voted for, and their president campaigned for, Trump.
I dunno, I think people are willing to throw the baby out with the bath water and harm their material comfort if it means they can stick it to foreigners.
beetnemesis | 17 days ago
Propaganda beats policy, at least lately.
Kamala and the democrats had very strong policy stuff on aiding first time home buyers and college debt, both of which are massive hurdles for working class/lower middle class/whatever you want to call people.
It wasn't a secret, it was communicated. I fucking knew about it and I don't have some kind off secret insight.
sdvneuro | 16 days ago
Your argument is cute because you ignore that the dems HAVE offered them something tangible. It’s disingenuous to blame the dems for failing to do the exact thing they actually did and suggest if they only listen to you then they’ll win.
Intendant | 16 days ago
Well you say spent, but fox news makes money. Which is so much worse. It turns out that fear and sensationalism based propaganda is more economically viable than real news
Environmental_Beach6 | 17 days ago
It seems most of these articles secretly point towards a much deeper problem in western democracies in general: pluralism and liberal neutrality fail in the 21st century.
No-Yak6109 | 17 days ago
Ok so what DO working class voters actually want? This article- and I've seen many variations of this theme- tell us that working class voters don't like or disagree with Democrats. They don't want government health cares, job guarantees, government programs. Ok so they want a few asshole billionaires and corporations in charge? If so- fine, I guess, Dems will keep losing and the working class voters get what they want- continually screwed over. I don't see the problem here- democracy is working.
beetnemesis | 17 days ago
Yeah, everyone nods their heads wisely and says "see, this is why democrats lose! They don't give what low-information voters want! They just call them stupid!"
And then the low-information voters believe stories about Haitian immigrants eating pet dogs.
Several_Internet2350 | 16 days ago
If they are low information voters, then they should be easier to "get" than the "high information voter".
But that's not the problem, Democrats lose because they are too constrained by donors or party leadership or media attacks or any number of things, then they lose, then they blame voters for not giving them more credit about how they obviously support good policies, they just have to be sneaky about it so all of the interested parties benefiting from the shitty system don't dump millions of dollars into their oppposition.
Few_Map2665 | 16 days ago
>If they are low information voters, then they should be easier to "get" than the "high information voter".
hahahahaha what???
>But that's not the problem, Democrats lose because they are too constrained by donors or party leadership or media attacks or any number of things, then they lose, then they blame voters for not giving them more credit about how they obviously support good policies, they just have to be sneaky about it so all of the interested parties benefiting from the shitty system don't dump millions of dollars into their oppposition.
in what way was the average american not better off at the end of the biden administration? sure he wasnt perfect but we saw wage gains (particularly for low incomes), climate action, an infrastructure bill, pro-labor and anti-scam work, effectively ending the drone war, and ending the afghanistan occupation. not to mention successfully rolling out a covid vaccine and getting post-pandemic inflation under control.
is it really so difficult to admit that american voter fucked up bad in 2024?
Several_Internet2350 | 16 days ago
>hahahahaha what???
You should be able to win over low win voters in a political contest. Is this something you can't grasp?
>in what way was the average american not better off at the end of the biden administration? sure he wasnt perfect but we saw wage gains (particularly for low incomes), climate action, an infrastructure bill, pro-labor and anti-scam work, effectively ending the drone war, and ending the afghanistan occupation. not to mention successfully rolling out a covid vaccine and getting post-pandemic inflation under control.
In what way did you think we were talking about Joe Biden? He won his election. Harris lost in 2024.
>is it really so difficult to admit that american voter fucked up bad in 2024?
What do you mean? The American voter is where the government draws its sovereignty and legitimacy from. They literally can't pick wrong. That's how democracy works. The voters wanted the fucked up bad choice in 2024.
beetnemesis | 16 days ago
The entire point of this conversation is that low information voters are susceptible to propaganda and vote against policies that help them. So yes, they "picked wrong."
As for the Democrats, the donor thing is a serious issue, although it's horrific on both sides.
The problem is that propaganda from the Democrats is essentially worse- they're less willing to use it, and it's less effective than tried and true stuff like "think of the children! Also Haitians want to eat your dogs"
Few_Map2665 | 16 days ago
>You should be able to win over low win voters in a political contest. Is this something you can't grasp?
is "low information" a euphemism here for "complete idiot?" i just want to make our terms as clear as possible!
>In what way did you think we were talking about Joe Biden? He won his election. Harris lost in 2024.
pardon me i thought we were talking about democratic perfomance in office the the loss of biden's vice president who promised a continuation of his policies lol.
>What do you mean? The American voter is where the government draws its sovereignty and legitimacy from.
yes...
>They literally can't pick wrong. That's how democracy works.
lolwhat??? how does that follow?
go ahead and tell yourself this while you're eating cat food and avoiding peter thiels blood-draining paramilitaries next year!
>The voters wanted the fucked up bad choice in 2024.
so ... the voters fucked up?
thanks for restating my point, albeit in a dumber and uglier way!
Read2Fap | 17 days ago
based on how they vote, they want to pay more in taxes, higher gas prices, no funding for schools, and to have their unions busted, then be told they're only cared about until they vote
Choperello | 17 days ago
It's actually pretty simple. They don't want to be talked down to and lectured. If you keep telling a group of people they're wrong for what they're feeling and thinking and should just be quiet and let the "smart people" tell them what's in their own best interests, you're gonna lose them. It doesn't even matter if what you tell them IS in their own best interests. They want to be listened to and their opinions taken seriously. That's how Trump won.
And if your answer is along the lines of "well their opinions are stupid and racist"... well I guess you don't care about trying to win their vote. You might even be right, but it doesn't really matter. That isn't how you change their minds.
Grouchy-Medium-326 | 16 days ago
You can blame democrats for talking down to them if you want I guess. I’m a single white dude who makes 58k in a suburb, basically the guy we are talking about here. From my experience talking to others like me, nothing changes their mind and everything will warp back around to “the Dems just don’t care about the working class”
And this is gonna sound bad, but i’v started not to really care when I hear their complaints. I struggle to afford some shit too and only have the life I do because of a very supportive family. So when I see these people who make what I do or more struggle due to cuts to Medicare, inflation due to tariffs, why do I have to be the adult and they be coddled like little children? I’m hurt by this too! Yet because I chose not to vote for it, I somehow am an elite who talks down. I’m in the same gutter as them yet for some reason we need to use kid gloves and diapers to try to make it so they don’t vote for a guy who starts another forever war with a middle eastern country that starts with I or implements insane tariffs
Choperello | 16 days ago
Again. Same attitude. "Why do in have to treat them with kid gloves?". That's the exact attitude. Kid gloves also comes from a place where you assume they are childish and need to be jacked as children. Which is what the Dems have also tried and failed because it's an obvious patronizing attitude.
Very few people approach this group of people just... Normally. Like hey what's going on in your life? What's hard for you? What are your worries? Add do that WITHOUT it being just a launch point in telling them they're wrong fit feeling left behind by the economy, that their worries about immigration are racist, etc.
Just effin listen and engage in an equal diqlogue. And don't turn it into a purity test where they need to agree with you on everything. It's ok to disagree sometimes without casting each other out.
The politicians that are doing that are winning.
Grouchy-Medium-326 | 16 days ago
I’m literally part of the group, my point is no one asks republicans to come up to me, ask me about my life and try to relate to why I disagree. The literally president and vice president just calls us crazy lefties and say we are gonna destroy the country
Trump and others can do that, but then people like me, despite being in the same situation have to talk the mantel of responsibility to understand and bridge the divide
I live in a more blue suburb and tend to vote blue for both social and economic reasons. The Republicans that have run to try to represent me have painted us blue voters as people who love child predators, crime and are why America will fall. And despite this area being blue, when they lose, every time the first thing is talking about fraud or how we are sheep who don’t deserve to vote.
Do you see my issue now? The last decade has been asking one side to stand up and understand the other yet my lived experience has not gotten any similar courtesy in return
Choperello | 16 days ago
I see your issue but... It's the same issue. You live in a blue area and say the republicans that are running there (and failing to get elected) aren't coming up to you to learn about you and your life. Yes. And. They're not getting ellected.
Now flip that into the redder/purple areas and instead of the republican candidates trying to swim upstream it's the Dem candidates. And losing.
Im not saying it's something only the D candidates should be doing. It applies to both sides. But in this thread we were talking about specifically about the group of working class voters the Dems are failing to reach. I offered my reasons why.
Few_Map2665 | 17 days ago
>It's actually pretty simple. They don't want to be talked down to and lectured.
hahahaha no matter what the dems do or say or how they say it they will always, ALWAYS be accused of this. there is no way to win this particular game.
> If you keep telling a group of people they're wrong for what they're feeling and thinking and should just be quiet and let the "smart people"
"im sorry, nummikins, i know those haitians are dirty backwards people but pretty pretty please dont accuse them of eating pets! i still love you and know you dont mean anything bad when you say it!!!"
> It doesn't even matter if what you tell them IS in their own best interests. They want to be listened to and their opinions taken seriously. That's how Trump won.
trump won because he endlessly bullshitted and the american people had recovered sufficiently under the democrats to feel safe voting for a racist carnival barker for the lulz.
>And if your answer is along the lines of "well their opinions are stupid and racist"... well I guess you don't care about trying to win their vote. You might even be right, but it doesn't really matter. That isn't how you change their minds.
lol these dumbasses arent gonna remember shit. they're going to vote, if they even remember to, based on what they had for breakfast the morning of election day and whether they had to pay $2.99 or $3.00 / gallon for gas.
Choperello | 16 days ago
> Trump endlessly bullshitted
So what? Really, SO WHAT? Did anyone NOT expect him to do that? Trump 2024 was a known entity. Everyone knew everything about his shit. If the DNC has no playbook for how to counteract that shit then they are failing as a party. It literally their primary job as a political party organization.
I think most DNC candidates/leadership don't realize how insanely out of touch their are with most of the country. Their handpicked candidate got beat by trump in 2024 (after all his shit was known) and lost both the popular and electoral vote. And trump GAINED share with minorities in 24 vs 16. And right now the party is also losing to challengers from the far left who are basically doing the shit I said above, actually going out and connecting with voters in their 9wn populist vibe.
(Personally I find people like manadi and Wilson just the left equivalent of trump, entirely unqualified and promising shit that stokes the populist vibe that they will totally fail to deliver. Never the less that doesn't change the fact both them and maga are utterly trashing the classical academic-elitist wing of the DNC)
Few_Map2665 | 16 days ago
>So what? Really, SO WHAT? Did anyone NOT expect him to do that? Trump 2024 was a known entity. Everyone knew everything about his shit. If the DNC has no playbook for how to counteract that shit then they are failing as a party. It literally their primary job as a political party organization.
lol
say it again now!
"only the democrats have agency in us politics."
>I think most DNC candidates/leadership don't realize how insanely out of touch their are with most of the country. Their handpicked candidate got beat by trump in 2024 (after all his shit was known) and lost both the popular and electoral vote. And trump GAINED share with minorities in 24 vs 16.
and his approval rating is lower than whale shit and those gains he made with minorities seem to have been wiped out lol.
its 2026, not 2024. better update your scripts!
>Personally I find people like manadi and Wilson just the left equivalent of trump, entirely unqualified and promising shit that stokes the populist vibe that they will totally fail to deliver.
hahaha yeah i too remember when mamdani and wilson led coups and murdered people!
https://www.vitalcitynyc.org/what-has-mamdani-done-so-far/
"He has lowered crime rates, won legislative concessions for two of his top priorities in Albany, delivered a rent freeze (through the Rent Guidelines Board he largely appoints) on regulated apartments, and eked out a budget hours before its deadline, while welcoming hundreds of thousands of sports-crazed revelers from around the world into city streets this summer without major incidents. He’s won praise among many who see housing production as key to delivering a more affordable city by releasing a robust “Block by Block” plan to encourage construction as well as identifying ways to speed permitting approvals.
tipsytoess | 17 days ago
Yeah, a lot of those ‘Man on the street’ type interviews along with the general media machine for the last 20 years have kind of memed people into believing that working class conservatives are all stupid racists who only vote the way they do because of the ‘hate in their heart’ or ‘Fox News’ or something equally dismissive. While there are stupid people in every party, if you actually sit down with a conservative in your life, (without immediately getting defensive and trying to ‘debunk’ all their beliefs with half-baked statistics) a lot of them have fully fleshed-out beliefs that come from a lifetime of lived experiences. I’ve been able to find a lot of common ground with conservatives by simply treating them like people through genuine, curious conversation and not problems that need to be beaten with the re-education stick until they comply.
Few_Map2665 | 17 days ago
yeah they came by 'haitian immigrants are eating the pets' and 'donald trump, lifeling fraudster who launched a coup should really be president again' because they WEREN'T stupid and racist hahaha.
a lot of lived experience told them this!
flyingasian2 | 16 days ago
I don’t think anyone actually believed the whole “they’re eating the pets.” That was just a way to get attention over ludicrous bs.
And it should say more about the democrats when the fraudster gets elected just because he was saying what people wanted to hear. Ultimately people are willing to overlook a lot if they think you will improve their living situation.
Few_Map2665 | 16 days ago
>I don’t think anyone actually believed the whole “they’re eating the pets.” That was just a way to get attention over ludicrous bs.
ahhh gotcha. so they didn't believe the vicious lie they were spreading was literally true. they just thought it served the "higher" purpose of justifying the expulsion of people that they considered unworthy from the US.
these people are scum.
>And it should say more about the democrats when the fraudster gets elected just because he was saying what people wanted to hear
as one of the top posts in this thread pointed out, only the democrats seem to have agency in our political system.
>Ultimately people are willing to overlook a lot if they think you will improve their living situation.
hahahaha thats something that biden and the dems absolutely did between 2020 and 2024. thats why the american voter felt safer voting for the funny teavee man and his funny catchphrases.
Choperello | 16 days ago
Bro. If over 50% of the voting public (and 30% of the entire population) decides to vote for trump over Harris in 2024 after EVERYON KNEW all this shit, that should tell you just how flat the D mesagae landed with a huge amount of people.
If the DNCs keeps insisting blaming thepeoppe instead of figuring out how to connect with that part of the population it's just gonna happen again and again. I don't know what else to tell you. Taking a high and mighty "look how stupid they are" may make you feel all righteous in the short term and will just dig the hole deeper long term.
Few_Map2665 | 16 days ago
>Bro. If over 50% of the voting public (and 30% of the entire population)
the trump-vance ticket got 49.8% of the popular vote.
his previous win didnt even manage that. the got the presidency because he drew an inside straight and got the right votes in the right places to win, not because more people turned out for him.
i know, i know, this seems like nit-picking. but this is publicly available information. why do you feel the need to exagerate trump's electoral performance?
especially since his approval rating now is in the gutter.
>after EVERYON KNEW all this shit, that should tell you just how flat the D mesagae landed with a huge amount of people.
no they didnt. again, the dumbest voters forgot the awful shit trump did and the last 4 years had seem enough recovery that they felt safe voting to make the lives of immigrants and trans people worse.
>If the DNCs keeps insisting blaming thepeoppe instead of figuring out how to connect with that part of the population it's just gonna happen again and again. I don't know what else to tell you. Taking a high and mighty "look how stupid they are" may make you feel all righteous in the short term and will just dig the hole deeper long term.
lol. and as soon as the democrats (why are you calling them the "DNC" anyway???) change to accomodate voters' imagined reality they will be criticized for not "sounding authentic" or "waffling". again, you cant win this particular game!
imma go ahead and tell you the future to help you understand. the dems wont need to do anything because:
WoodenPush7684 | 16 days ago
This is complete and utter nonsense
“Well yes Trump lies but that really says more about how bad democrats are”
what in the 5 year old logic is that
Choperello | 16 days ago
Yup. Cause everyone knew he lies and all his shit. They knew about jan 6. And everything else. And despite that more people CHOSE to vote for him then the other option.
The entire point of a political party such as the DNC is to put up an agenda and candidates that can win and support the public messaging that pushes their candidates forward.
They utterly failed in their one job.
Given a shit sandwich and the DNC candidate, the voters chose a shit sandwich. Ergo, they perceived the DNC option as worse then a shit sandwich.
Few_Map2665 | 16 days ago
>The entire point of a political party such as the DNC
it's called the democratic party, you moron.
crookedledder | 17 days ago
This is a hard truth that most lefties can't understand. If they were to understand it, they'd no longer be lefties.
Several_Internet2350 | 16 days ago
who says they don't want "government healthcare, programs, or jobs"? Which is such a broad description of policies that it is meaningless.
Moonscrubber- | 17 days ago
Blue collar workers are just very culturally different from Democrats, they want that culture war shit. It really does motivate them
Jaxyl | 17 days ago
They don't wasn't culture war shit, they want to feel power in world designed to give them none.
They want easy wins and solutions in a complex system where victory is promised by kilometers but given in millimeters.
Getting mad at Haitians is easy because it's a simple position, no complexity, and they get that easy win that makes them feel powerful.
It keeps them focused elsewhere
MakeASpreadsheet | 17 days ago
A typical blue collar guy makes 50k a year. Just enough to get zero support from the government for anything.
Meanwhile, seeing refugees getting free housing and assistance is enough to annoy anyone. People who give, but never get - are annoyed by those who get and never give.
Jaxyl | 16 days ago
So close, you're so close.
Now look into why the blue collar guy who makes 50k a year isn't getting any support and who frequently stops the bills/policies that would help them out.
MakeASpreadsheet | 16 days ago
You misunderstood. Blue collar republicans don’t want help. They want lower taxes and to be left alone.
Most blue collar guys detest welfare queens, lazy people milking the disability system, etc.
It’s not that they also want a handout - it’s that they want no handouts and lower taxes.
diavolomaestro | 17 days ago
I would love any acknowledgment by folks here that the Democratic Party has moved substantially left on cultural issues in the past 12-15 years, and that’s driven a ton of working class exodus.
Deciding to Win did a 2024 autopsy that included an analysis of the Democratic Party platform every year since 2012. Mentions of racial and LGBT identity shot up a thousandfold; climate went way up; discussions of equity rose 700+%. Meanwhile mentions of “middle class” dropped 79%; “jobs” went down 47%; “responsibility” dropped by 83%. Obviously this is just one document but I think it echos the broader vibe shift, which culminated in the peak wokeness era of 2020-2022ish (https://decidingtowin.org/)
Is it crazy to say that working class people shifted away from Dems because they accurately sensed that Democrats / progressives were less focused on bread and butter issues like health care, the social safety net, middle class jobs, taxing the rich, etc? Working class people don’t necessarily hate LGBT rights or the environment but they don’t want to hear about that over and over again to the exclusion of core kitchen-table issues. (Reminder that what caused Mamdani to take off was relentless focus on affordability, not a spate of promises toward niche interest groups)
No-Yak6109 | 17 days ago
Your post seems to presume that equity and climate issues don’t concern the working class (even though they directly concern them) and that racial issues don’t, as if they’re all white. The things you’re dismissing as “cultural” issues allow your convenient circular argument, even if unintentional.
As for LGBT stuff- the overwhelmingly vast majority of legislation passed about it is anti-trans/queer by Republicans. Which is then used an excuse to tarnish Dems for “talking about it”
diavolomaestro | 17 days ago
I don’t presume anything, there’s lots and lots of polling showing that the social /cultural focus of college-educated Dems is less popular than their traditional focus on health care, jobs, and education. Voters want Dems to focus on protecting social security (83%), create jobs (74%), lower crime rates (56%). Fighting climate change (35%) and protecting LGBT rights (25%) are much lower. source: https://decidingtowin.org/
whether you engage with that polling is up to you.
Few_Map2665 | 16 days ago
>Voters want Dems to focus on protecting social security (83%)
biden did just this. as far as i know neither harris, nor other dems want to do anything but protect social security.
>create jobs (74%)
biden did this. over 16.6m jobs created over his 4 years - the highest in history. kamala promised to continue this.
> lower crime rates (56%)
biden did this. again kamala haris promised blah blah blah
https://www.congress.gov/118/meeting/house/117634/documents/HHRG-118-JU08-20240911-SD002-U2.pdf
again, maybe american voters really, earth-shatteringly fucked up in 2024?
Grouchy-Medium-326 | 16 days ago
It’s like how people said “well we voted for Trump because of inflation”… you voted for the guy with pro inflation policies lmao. Yea turns out voters are sometimes dumb and don’t put together that stuff like tariffs raise prices
Few_Map2665 | 16 days ago
Exactly - and trying to follow their every dumb impulse is just asking for problems. Leaders need to lead!
MakeASpreadsheet | 17 days ago
“Equity” means equality of outcome. Which really just means dragging people down to the same level of poor. No thank you.
MissyLissa04 | 16 days ago
In the 2024 democrat program affordabilitywas mention hundreds of times while transgender people and their ussues less than a dozen
UpbeatEquipment8832 | 16 days ago
God, guns, and gays. Or trans, these days.
I think Dems fundamentally fail to understand just how conservative many working class voters are. And how people will usually vote for morals over their own benefits.
Most of the leftists who refused to vote for Dems over Palestine ignore that the working class is doing the same thing because of the trans.
bakochba | 17 days ago
They want to be richer, they aren't looking for more comfortable version of poverty
JayRandom212 | 16 days ago
They want to earn money.
Not "get paid" money or be "given" money. They want to earn it. This makes them feel valued and it gives their life meaning.
Remember that the charts in the linked article are those who self-identify as "working class". Working is literally a part of their chosen identity.
The problem is, many of them don't have the skills that the current global labor market demands. We can't just give them food stamps and Section 8 vouchers because that would hurt their pride. So we will need to use macoreconomic policy to make them feel good.
These are the policies that Trump used to win in the Midwest. It's true that these policies won't be very effective. It's also true that there's a lot o stupidity and racism embedded in these policies. But Trump only needed a few percentage points to win WI, MI, and PA.
The good news is that Democrats have a long list of policies that create jobs and make paychecks stretch farther:
The key is to not treat it like it's a handout. These voters are too proud for handouts. We have to make sure they understand that it's EARNED. I hired guys to climb up on my roof to patch it. Dangerous, difficult work. They were paid peanuts. These guys are already working hard -- we need to find a way for them to get paid for it. It's not right that the people who fix roofs can't afford a roof of their own.
No-Yak6109 | 16 days ago
Dems have been talking about and running on what you're saying since Clinton. Bill. And all it's done is create endless articles and reddit threads about how Democrats are out of touch with the working class.
CaptainSparklebottom | 16 days ago
Because they are. They can talk all they want but they have to have actionable achievements. Otherwise it is just talk which is worthless. Democrats have sided with the capitalist against the workers when it comes time to pass actual policy that would make things better, and trip over their own balls to give hand outs to the already obscenely rich. A vast majority are business as usual.
Few_Map2665 | 16 days ago
hahaha the biden admin delivered plenty.
voters responded by claiming that their doordash cost too much and gave the republicans all the branches of government.
NandoDeColonoscopy | 17 days ago
An actual seat at the table, mostly. DSA meetings are full of kids from loaded families. Hasan Piker is the most prominent left wing voice right now and he grew up rich and never worked a day in his life. It's a movement with plenty of folks with elite educations and very little interaction with the workers
Several_Internet2350 | 16 days ago
All those other political streamers are broadcasting from the coal mines in between lunch breaks.
NandoDeColonoscopy | 16 days ago
I think perhaps a movement that isn't led by streamers at all would be more effective at reaching the working class
Several_Internet2350 | 15 days ago
In what practical sense is Hasan "leading" the left? He's just a popular political streamer.
Aksama | 17 days ago
People want to have access to food, healthcare, a decent career and decent pay.
The GOP lies and promises those things and promises to hurt brown people.
Dems promise those things and can’t actually provide them because they’re just as beholden to corporate interests. (Well, 90% as beholden)
So now progressives start doing well because nobody can afford to live anymore.
byup123 | 17 days ago
It’s really about being annoying asf and treating everything like it’s a liberal arts course and gassing up economic populism and calling everything a “theory”. Talking down to people is another big one.
To be clear, I lean Democrat and would vote for any moderate Democrat over any republican (Biden was the best president in my life time imo).
I’m very socially progressive (Don’t care about any of the anti-woke shit, I’m pro trans, I’m pro abortion, support free healthcare, higher taxes on wealthy etc) but I love free markets & capitalism. I support strong U.S. foreign policy (explicitly anti-Russia, anti-China, anti-Iran, anti-Terrorism etc). It feels like when u get into the economic and foreign policy side of things leftists and tankies constantly talk down to you about stuff they don’t understand. As if there’s something wrong about loving America.
I’m sure there are many like me.
Few_Map2665 | 16 days ago
>treating everything like it’s a liberal arts course
what the heck does this mean lol
>Talking down to people is another big one.
the dipshit demographic will always feel that they are being talked down to, lol
>It feels like when u get into the economic and foreign policy side of things leftists and tankies constantly talk down to you about stuff they don’t understand. As if there’s something wrong about loving America.
yes kamala harris and the 2024 democrats were all about the tankies rofl
DaneLimmish | 16 days ago
Working class here meaning "white people in factories and farmers who own several hundred acres"
amumpsimus | 16 days ago
My first question — which he never answers — is the demographic breakdown of these self-identified “working class” voters.
I suspect that “working class” these days is highly coded as “white” which raises a massive red flag regarding their actual political motivations.
trinitrotolerance | 17 days ago
I am frankly tired of Joe Roganites referring to themselves as “the working class” and demanding the world cater to their dumbass narcissistic white/christian/male delusions. Just way what you want to say; Democrats aren’t popular with uneducated white men, because they don’t pander to them and they are the most delicate, special snowflakes on planet earth.
anewe | 17 days ago
hmmm maybe you should make more posts insulting the people that you want to vote for you, that will eventually convince them
trinitrotolerance | 17 days ago
It’s rich coming from the “fuck your feelings” crowd that freaks out when they see pronouns. Eternally aggrieved babies even though you constantly get your way.
Y2020 | 17 days ago
White people are a majority of the population so any party that wants to win needs to pander to us.
trinitrotolerance | 17 days ago
Nah not if the pandering includes climate change denial, concentration camps, and vaccine skepticism which seem to be primary drivers for the MAGA disease.
Y2020 | 17 days ago
All of these takes poll badly with white people
Few_Map2665 | 16 days ago
the democrats have not won the white vote since 1964, despite the republicans becoming the party of all of the above.
Ok_Significance_6772 | 16 days ago
Okay, then how do progressives actually win power and create a durable movement that is constantly thwarted and undone every 2-4 years?
Or are you just okay with constantly losing?
Alert_Coyote_8546 | 17 days ago
There are enough white people in this country who are motivated by things other than some illusion of racial identity, those votes are useless to chase. the weirdo racially motivated voters will always go for the most conservative side anyway.
Electrical-Penalty44 | 16 days ago
He is a fanatic who doesn't care about making sure disillusioned centrists and liberals don't vote Republican. It's people like him who keep the Republicans winning in all the swing states.
Democrats keep losing because they don't go after those voters and would rather champion the "rights" of biological males to use female changerooms/bathrooms.
Alert_Coyote_8546 | 16 days ago
This makes no sense, but I guess it's all trans people fault again. Why should democrats buy into conservative media narratives?
Kingofcheeses | 17 days ago
This kind of rhetoric is why the Democrats lost. Lumping every white working class person together with the troglodytes isn't going to garner their votes
trinitrotolerance | 17 days ago
It’s borne out in the statistics, this is an objective fact, the primary determinants of which way someone voted were gender, education, and ethnicity which is to say uneducated white people (especially men) voted for Trump. It’s just the truth. They were his most overwhelmingly supportive bloc.
UpbeatEquipment8832 | 16 days ago
The determiner was religion. Which correlates with ethnicity and education, but religion is the easiest thing to target.
The Southern Baptist church doesn’t exist anymore, it just exists to give Republicans votes. There’s no coherent theology amongst the believers. The same is true for non-denominational Christians.
Alert_Coyote_8546 | 16 days ago
Republicans are always telling the working class they aren't working hard enough, and only deserve healthcare sometimes, but somehow this isn't a negative for them politically? Even though they consistently funnel money to the wealthiest people? (not even american citizens too)
GoblinToHobgoblin | 16 days ago
Because the working class prides themselves on hard work.
They don't want handouts they want to feel like theyve done well by their own efforts..
Alert_Coyote_8546 | 16 days ago
So they like money being funneled to ultra billionaires who don't work for it? How does that make any sense? All the working men I know want better healthcare and better opportunities.
Few_Map2665 | 16 days ago
and yet, its just the white working class that seems to have this issue. working class folks of other races seem to be considerably friendlier to dems...
Grumpiergoat | 17 days ago
The working class leans left on a number of issues. But also conservative. So a number of liberal issues - trans rights, protections against discrimination, protecting immigrants - doesn't play well with the working class. It's why LBJ a ways back said that passing civil rights lost the Democratic party the South.
And of course if Democrats moved away from liberal issues like civil rights to focus on more leftist issues like taxing corporations and the rich, it would alienate progressive voters. Democrats are kind of fucked when things are going well and conservative leaning voters can pretend a healthy economy isn't tied to Democratic administrations. It's only when Republicans have shit the bed that some of those voters remember that Republicans are absolute shit at a healthy economy (and are also warmongers who will get us into military quagmires).
It's not fully the issue, but part of the problem is how steadfastly some leftists refuse to embrace more patriotic trappings. Progressivism is patriotism. But a certain segment of both leftists and progressives steadfastly refuse to link patriotism with civil rights, labor, and other liberal issues like those.
But, yeah. Doesn't matter what Democrats do. The party is too diverse, so there's too many issues fighting amongst each other. Progressives accept the best options available, even when it's a lesser of two evils, but leftists don't.
Cold_Specialist_3656 | 16 days ago
> And of course if Democrats moved away from liberal issues like civil rights to focus on more leftist issues like taxing corporations and the rich, it would alienate progressive voters.
No. It would not. You're mistaking cause and effect here.
Democrats leaned into left wing social causes because their donors don't want left wing fiscal policy. That's why Democrats campaigned on abortion rather than raising minimum wage.
Democrats support a lot of things they don't talk about much. Things like trans rights and abortion have been given center stage because it helps them pick up the left wing vote without angering their donors. Not because economic messages are unpopular with their base.
busmans | 15 days ago
At no point have democrats focused on trans rights. It is exclusively brought up by republicans.
LAspring99 | 16 days ago
Raising the minimum wage is such a stupid policy when only 1 percent of workers actually make minimum wage.
Cold_Specialist_3656 | 16 days ago
1% lmao. Take a look at how many make less than 14 an hour. What minimum wage would be if it was increased to match inflation, like boomer social security payments.
Nearly 20 million Americans make less than what minimum wage was in the 1960's
You realize that most companies pay 5 cents over minimum wage specifically so they can push "nobody pays minimum wage" propaganda to smoothbrains right? Companies aren't stupid and they know a ton of Americans are.
GoblinToHobgoblin | 16 days ago
Yup, unfortunately the two party system lumps together a bunch of groups who shouldnt be lumped together
lillychr14 | 16 days ago
Working class voters have a can’t stop punching themselves in their own dick problem
SadMediumSmolBean | 17 days ago
What they need is progressives that are dicks. Just say you fucked the other candidate's dad or something.
robocop_shot_mycock | 17 days ago
Typical liberal politicians, they talk a big game but none of them actually come over to fuck my dad. I would know since I still live there.
SadMediumSmolBean | 17 days ago
Look man, all I'm saying is if Kamala were willing to say Vance's mom faked the breast cancer to not talk to him anymore she would have gotten way more votes. Decorum is for a better time, not the country we have.
darnay321 | 16 days ago
Exactly and I think that's what Democrats don't seem to get. Always playing defensive on repubs lie. Start a scandal that would force repubs to go on defensive to control the narrative. From "they are eating the dogs and cats" to "trans women are taking over sports". We all know it's a lie but Democrats have to defend themselves coz the media loves the drama
mrjonesthegod | 17 days ago
I’m gonna say it fuck them seriously I’d rather have this this whole experiment burned to the ground then constantly having to cater to people who feel some type of way because other groups decide to speak out and advocate for their issues
GoblinToHobgoblin | 16 days ago
Wow I'm shocked that the working class wants nothing to do with democrats...
Enjoy 2 more terms of trump lol
TaxLawKingGA | 16 days ago
So Working Class people are stupid. Thanks, but we already knew that.
I always laugh when I hear a person complain about the cost or lack of healthcare, then also complain about socialized medicine.
That is when I know someone is a fucking moron.
ChexAndBalancez | 16 days ago
You can't be pro-working class and support illegal immigration. They directly compete with working class people for homes and jobs. If you supports illegal immigration you are, necessarily, anti-working class Americans.
Willing-Egg3867 | 17 days ago
I found myself here wondering how these survey questions were actually phrased. When I asked myself the questions as phrased in this article, the answer was usually "it depends." I think they may be asking very complicated questions in a simplistic way that kind of obfuscates people's actual opinions on the matter. This is why surveys have very limited value in understanding people's processes. Conversation would go much farther.
braumbles | 17 days ago
This is such nonsense. Dems are pro union, pro white collar, blue collar, no collar. Republicans haven't done shit for the working or middle class in generations, yet somehow it's dems that are out of touch with the working class.
The truth is, Americans are fucking ignorant about politics. It's that simple.
Torin93 | 17 days ago
Well, they destroyed the working class in this country. Clinton with his NAFTA, a republican plan passed by Democrats. So is there any wonder they have a working class problem? They forgotten their core and it’s not corporate entities. It’s blue-collar workers and until they purge the party of these corporate country destroyers they’re gonna have a problems.
RampantTyr | 16 days ago
The most popular US president of all time was a Democrat whose policies would be called socialist today.
All it takes is someone following those policies in a ruthless enough way to get them passed and the low information voters will follow them.
GreedyKnowledge42 | 16 days ago
Did anyone here actually read the article? I thought it was pretty spot on, even if I agree with the Democrats on many points and not the “working class”. I don’t think the Dems understand how much they do not resonate with the group they believe they champion. I think a similar thing is happening with moderates
VaporousMote | 16 days ago
"The most recent high-profile progressive candidate to embrace those working people: Abdul El-Sayed, whose economic populism helped him win the 2026 Michigan Democratic Senate primary. Called a “working class” champion by the United Auto Workers, El-Sayed performed best in wealthier, higher-educated areas of the state. His opponent, Haley Stevens, drew more support from Detroit and working-class communities."
OK, this piece is deeply unserious.
I assume they took a quick glance at the county list for the MI US Senate primary and saw "Ann Arbor" for AES and then went off of that, lol. Ann Arbor is a college town, and is somewhat affluent.
Completely ignores that Oakland County, which has Bloomfield township, West Bloomfield and a number of other incredibly affluent areas (like, mansion affluent) all went for Stevens.
It also ignores he was basically neck-and-neck with Stevens in Wayne county, which is where Detroit is. You know, the poorest Metro city in our entire country?
Imagine trying to paint AES (my candidate) as someone with less working class support (I'm working class) and more support from wealthier people.
It feels like the author started from the point they wanted to make and went from there.
phantom_lady723 | 15 days ago
The problem is that while working class people would rather go hungry then see any tax dollars benefit black or brown people. That racist crap put Trump and Reagan in the White House. It’s kept us back as a country for decades. And until we reckon with it, nothing will change.
Varnu | 17 days ago
The populist left is not solving the Democratic Party’s core 21st-century problem, which is the erosion of support among non-college, low-information voters who we sometimes call the “working class.” They are making it considerably worse. The DSA is extremely white, extremely urban and is -22 points among those without a college degree. Getting rid of Thanksgiving, calling it "chest feeding" instead of breast feeding and letting your niece's rapist out of prison isn't popular with anyone who went to work at an HVAC business right after high school, no matter what their race is.
PaulsGrafh | 17 days ago
Isn’t that kind of an insurmountable problem, then? Republican voters love anecdotal evidence. So as long as some Democrats in this country of 350 million people are involved in isolated incidents of not celebrating Thanksgiving, calling it “chest feeding” or a criminal going free, they’re going to latch onto that and attribute that to all Democrats, like they’ve been doing for years. It’s like playing whack a mole. Once one dumb thing happens involving a Democrat, the entire party gets the blame. But if a bunch of Republicans get caught raping kids, it’s just a few bad apples.
Varnu | 17 days ago
Shapiro is pulling Assad numbers in a purple state. Jared Golden was one of the more popular politicians in the country. Ossof is crushing it in Georgia. It is not that hard.
We've got no problem beating Republicans with these kinds of candidates. Quick question: How many candidates ever endorsed by Our Revolution or Justice Democrats have flipped a GOP congressional seat blue? I'll give you a hint--it's the only integer less than one 1.
beetnemesis | 17 days ago
Idiotic talking points that play right off of right wing stereotypes. Like, at no point has it ever been close to a policy goal to get rid of Thanksgiving. And what's with "letting your niece's rapist out of prison?" The current Preaident is, literally, a rapist!
The shit you are saying is literally what a Fox News anchor would say with nothing to back it up. Don't act like it's wise, actionable policy advice.
anewe | 17 days ago
you can't put "abolish the police" on your website and then complain when your political enemies use that against you.
trinitrotolerance | 17 days ago
Abolishing the current system of policing we have where they get to act as unaccountable, over-armed, and under-trained thugs to the tune of a combined 20bn annual across the nation is absolutely valid. It’s disgusting and weird the way cops are here and it’s a systemic problem.
What I can complain about is morons taking everything in bad faith because they want to. That’s it, it’s just narcissism. You have a way you view the world that suits you and you don’t want to change it based on objective fact and it’s somehow everyone else’s problem.
anewe | 17 days ago
have you ever considered that the voters you want to court do not want to abolish the current system of policing?
SilverMedal4Life | 17 days ago
Nobody who understands the current system of policing is happy with it. Not even the cops.
anewe | 17 days ago
k have fun explaining that to the white working class that you desperately want to vote for you
SilverMedal4Life | 17 days ago
Please be more dismissive, it really helps get your point across.
beetnemesis | 17 days ago
I mean, you're sort of proving my point. In general, I think people would be happier with less death, abuse, corruption, and wasted resources. But Republicans spin it as being "Soft on crime."
anewe | 17 days ago
i think you're having trouble accepting that the people you want to vote for you fundamentally disagree with certain things you believe
beetnemesis | 17 days ago
I would, except time after time when liberal policies are explained in a neutral way, people prefer them. It's like how republican voters hated Obamacare but loved the Affordable Care Act
horseradishstalker | 17 days ago
That does appear to be a two-way street when put at the level of culture wars. Which are nothing more than a strategy to ensure that people in groups that have every reason to have common economic cause for example don’t join forces.
horseradishstalker | 16 days ago
I’m not required to vote for anyone just because they want me to - no matter how desperate they are. And they don’t have to cheat either or break the law either. For what it’s worth boasting about cheating and actually breaking the law is a really good way to make sure I never vote for someone like that regardless of their party. Everyone has to earn my vote.
All I ask of candidates who want to represent me is to demonstrate to me that they will follow the constitution and the law and keep their promises. And if they will vote in Congress overall in a moral manner (per Matthew 25 : 40-45) that doesn’t screw me and everyone in my community regardless of income into the ground so much the better.
And they better bring their A game because I’m not easily distracted by lies.
Is the white working class so different from that? Why would anyone vote against their own best interests. I mean, if you’re going to be selfish, at least vote for yourself.
PaulsGrafh | 17 days ago
To be fair, what you just said was far more detailed and nuanced than simply “abolish.”
SilverMedal4Life | 17 days ago
The GOP lost the right to ask for nuance a long time ago - they certainly aren't.
Well, they could do so hypocritically, I guess.
Varnu | 17 days ago
We opened the 2024 DNC with a land acknowledgement. Kamala Harris said *into a camera* that the Federal Government should provide and pay for gender reassignment surgery to immigrants who came here illegally and were incarcerated. The DSA released a platform just weeks ago and it includes: abolishing prisons, defunding the Pentagon, abolishing national borders and establishing government ownership of large corporations.
The complement you’re supposed to pay leftists is that they at least know what they believe in and fight for it — but you’re also supposed to think it’s cringe and absurd to take anything nutty any of them say seriously. Which is it?
box_fan_man | 17 days ago
He’s right though. The Democratic Party coddled up to things a lot of working class Americans just do not like.
roastedoolong | 17 days ago
> The DSA is extremely white...
given that the majority of voters who vote Republican are white, I would not necessarily say that this is a 'bad' thing -- if anything, based off historical racist grievances, having a DSA full of PoCs who went around trying to convince blue collar white people socialism is the answer would backfire horribly.
goodreverenddoc2 | 17 days ago
with what fox has done to this country the only way to get that voting block back is to literally sacrifice a trans person of color for jesus /s
[OP] The_Conversation | 17 days ago
Submission statement: Author Nicholas Jacobs is a political scientist who has spent a lot of time talking to working-class and rural voters. He bucks the conventional wisdom that the problem the Democrats have with working-class voters is that workers have strayed from the Democrats who aren't speaking to workers' economic grievances.
Instead, he argues that the Democrats have strayed from the workers' worldview.
>It’s about the Democratic Party’s rapid post-2008 shift toward a worldview that places far greater explanatory weight on structural barriers and far less on individual effort and personal responsibility.
>Working-class voters, who historically understood their own lives through a framework of hard work and earned reward, did not shift so dramatically.
recoveringleft | 17 days ago
I'm a PoC who studies white rural conservative American history and culture and I live near ranches and despite my ethnicity, because I managed to address the issues of rural America I have some measure of respect from them
hobopwnzor | 17 days ago
What an insane framing. That progressives are struggling to solve. As if moderates aren't in the same boat and trying to solve it by co-opting the affordability rhetoric of progressives.
Reminder that Bernie massively over-performed with those working class first-time voters that Trump turned out in 2016.
metamucil_buttchug69 | 16 days ago
Well their national leaders are Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries so yeah basically rich corporate Israel loving centrists....
flyingasian2 | 16 days ago
Reading through the comments it feels like most people didn’t read the article and just rushed to the comments to explain why the author is wrong.
mattyoclock | 16 days ago
It's almost like the way you can get votes is to appeal to the material needs of the people you want to vote for you.
But that's apparently communism, the best we can do is lose to republicans while appealing to the interests of CEO's.
Dull_Bird3340 | 16 days ago
Nfk, DSA is primarily college educated whites who don't have any of the survival worries facing the working class. They are campaigning on an agenda that kept working class voters from voting for Harris and Dems in 2024
pillbinge | 17 days ago
The problem is that Democrats tie themselves to issues that certainly affect many people but become cultural battles, like trans bathroom stuff, and that they are tied to the "working class" which is just defined as the needier people. Once people stop being needy they stop identifying with the Democrats.
I get that the whole trans "issue" is a non-issue for many but the underlying problems are there for many. Instead of side-stepping the issue by saying that businesses should be able to decide who uses what, including what trans people use, and that single-use bathrooms are never an issue, and so maybe we'll give tax breaks for bathroom renovations, they dug into it and questioned the humanity of people who aren't able to process a lot of questions, and had no question about what it meant to be a man or woman. Maybe the long game would have been better. That's not throwing trans people under the bus, it's acknowledging that our governmental system allows for a range of expression. It's why MA and VT were able to have gay marriage before others. All you need are people to pave the way, like with dispensaries. When people see the world isn't burning and when younger people come up used to things then it isn't the biggest deal. But no, it had to be a FOX-news article argument with your uncle who's on FB too much and posts the same photo of him in his truck with sunglasses on.
The second part is just that poorer immigrants will be a Democratic base but immigrants are the "least American" kind of people we have. I get it - they're supposed to be the real Americans, but let's think about how dumb that is. If anyone here moved to Switzerland and worked as a janitor would you be the epitome of a Swiss person? No. If you moved to Ecuador and started a business would you be a true Ecuadorian? No. America for most is not some economic zone. Founding Fathers were right to build a land they saw as being one where people were free to build themselves up but they were comparing it to the Old World which still has a class system in many ways. It's a new era. Democrats want votes from people who basically can't vote and often times hold very conservative views anyway, or who end up with money and vote conservative like everyone else. I think Democrats have given platforms to well-educated immigrants and people see that and vote for a candidate that reflects them but in the grander scheme that is getting old. Democrats' plan of getting newer Americans to outshine the older ones doesn't work when over time one becomes the other. Look at all the non-White voting blocs that are still really conservative. That's not a problem to "solve", that's part of their culture, just like anyone else's.
I think Democrats are the best politicians for the country we have or want to get back but we also know nobody actually wants what we used to have. Hard to sell people on a party like that. It shouldn't make people wonder why nationalist parties that adopt more "leftist" views often do a bit better than anyone expected, and why it's emerging more and more that you can vote for healthcare and call someone a slur at the same time. You can want a clean environment and not want a rainbow flag to have so many colors. You can disagree, obviously, and I'm not always going to be right, but I think in general I am, and the only thing I can say is that we had four years of Donald Trump then Biden and our country still went back to Trump. We will do this again if nothing changes.
trinitrotolerance | 17 days ago
There is no Democrat tying themselves to the “trans bathroom stuff” except to deflect the ridiculous bigoted noise coming from trans-obsessed witch hunting Republicans. They scream and cry and bleat on about how much they care about the genitals of every single person entering the public restroom and insist they aren’t weird for it. You don’t get to have questions about another persons right to basic human dignity in public. Not sorry, earnestly turn it sideways and shove it.
I’m not reading the rest of your garbage since it’s built on a basis of disingenuous slop being rebranded as a “losing issue” by bigoted freaks.
E: spare me, if you want to hide your posts so bad then keep em hidden from everyone by not posting.
pillbinge | 17 days ago
We don't get to pick the battles our opponents try to begin, but we get to pick how we respond. Democrats responded very poorly, and in today's age where proxies for each party are often more important than the party (e.g. Planned Parenthood for the left, NRA for the right), it's very clear that this was just one mistake. It's not the only.
>I’m not reading
Sounds right.
Icommentor | 17 days ago
The leadership of the Democratic party is neither progressive, nor friendly to the working class. They are the not bigotted friends of big business, opposed to the party of bigotted friends of big business.
Thing is, the working class has wised up to this. The jig is up, and the people in charge are still the same deer in the headlights that they were on November 9th, 2016.
ClownTown509 | 17 days ago
Democrats are the fucking problem, not us!
Nancy pelosi just enriched her and her husband's fortune by another $6.5 million on stock trading in only a month.
How is that supposed to look good to any voter?!
Mindless-Baker-7757 | 16 days ago
El-Sayed is a rich guy. Who else can finish medical school and never use the degree?