I am a bit surprised to hear that the U.S. government can still order around Dutch police like a butler. Maybe the Dutch regime is struggling to actually effectively decouple themselves from the U.S.? Would love to hear an expert weigh in.
ASML weighs in on this, they get a key component from the US (a lens iirc). There is no real possibility of complete decoupling in the modern world. You would have to go back to a much less modern world for true decoupling.
The EUV lenses are made by Zeiss in Germany AFAIK.
But to even suggest that ASML is dictating US-Dutch diplomacy, two NATO members with similar values and goals, is hilariously off.
I understand that there are complex global supply chains, but my expectation is A) that these are somewhat mutually beneficial relations and B) that their day-to-day operation is somewhat confined to non-governmental spheres.
From my reading of the article, it seems like the U.S. was able to order around the police in Amsterdam without going through a system to check if the Dutch government approves of the action. That’s mostly my confusion.
If they're willing to go to war for each other, I'd say they're willing to take down a server or two for each other too.
Obviously not a perfect analogy but it shows that US-Dutch relationships very much predate ASML and extend far beyond commercial interests.
I have a similar problem with the Taiwan "silicon shield" meme that's been going around, as if the US hasn't supported the republican Chinese forces since the 30's, including with troops on the ground.
> Why is it allowed to impose its force on the civilians it is protecting?
I don't think co-operation on this type of crime is part of the treaty itself but the treaty doesn't mean much if the two countries don't have a good diplomatic relationship.
> Is it because A/I are "terrorists" and "terrorists" are NATO responsibility?
Your comparison doesn't hold. ASML depends on components owned by the US, but US companies also depend on components created only by ASML. It is a mutual dependency. It doesn't imply that Dutch police should go around doing the bidding of a foreign government. This is much worse and should be protested.
I agree and find my country's behavior unacceptable as well. Some of us are doing what we can under the current regime, but it is not easy and comes with real risk. America is not in a good place right now.
Yes, it does. Dependence may be mutual, but the leverage is not equal. Trump could make a Truth Social post tomorrow and erase billions of ASML market cap, and they know he's irrational enough to do it. ASML and the Netherlands can't reciprocate such force without inflicting great harm on themselves.
I'm not arguing that's right or just. Only that it is. If you doubt it, go figure out why ASML shares dropped ~5% last April 7th. These people hang on the US government's every utterance.
Something to think about when selecting a host nation for your international hacktivist IT operation.
The Dutch are with 17 million people and all our stuff runs on MS. Even a judge from the international criminal court had an Amazon Echo in her living room. We, on average, don't know and don't care.
All this sovereignty stuff is still quite contained in our nerd bubble I feel.
Replying to myself: my current theory is that the Dutch regime weighed the risk of political potential blowback from the U.S. (specifically executive office), and did not consider it worthwhile protecting the final servers of a group that is winding down anyways.
Again, would love to hear a domain expert weigh in! Also because I walk past this data center every day :)
The Netherlands is a pretty pragmatic place, at the end of the day. America is a massive trading, investment [1] and security partner to it. (Going back to our founding.)
And Dutch voters’ views on policing are currently tending right: “84 percent of Dutch adults believe police struggle to maintain authority. Ten percent disagreed, and 6 percent said they had no opinion” [2].
They can't and that's not what happened. The Dutch government believes Antifa to commit illegal acts. Enough for them to at least consider classifying them a terrorist organization about a year ago.
The thing is the moment antifa is mentioned it is most definitely politics. Antifa as a single cohesive organisation doesn't exist, the fact they even considered it might do is a political position. What does exist is radical left organisations some of which cross the legal line, and these can be targeted by mutual legal assistance requests. It'll be interesting to see if anything actually comes of this or it's a damp squib, these groups, esp the more militant anti-capitalist lot have learned to practicing opsec the hard way, e.g. getting nicked.
The same thing could be said about Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood or many other terrorist groups. It’s an excuse for plausible deniability. There is for example a real group called the Portland Rose Antifa who organized and plotted violent acts in a Signal chat.
Idk about what the actual objective comparison is, but around me (Capitol Hill, Seattle) many left anarchist types definitely threaten violence. I’m not sure they’d actually follow through and a lot of it is communist revolution larping, but there is probably something to it. Or at the very least they’d do things like hide violent fugitives.
Someone left-aligned (and acting alone, not an official terrorist group) assassinated Charlie Kirk in the US.
A group of left aligned people got in over their heads on a protest action and one shot a police officer.
My too-online left friends worship Luigi IRL, one even recently got a tattoo meant to reference him.
I’m not convinced there are any real terrorist groups operating the way e.g the Weathermen were back in the 70s. But there is some kind of violent left tendency rising, and we could easily be headed that way.
I don't see how there's any basis for concluding that Tyler Robinson is "left-aligned." He seems pretty apolitical. He did it to defend his girlfriend's honor, or something. If you think his dating preferences make him "left-aligned," that seems more revealing of your own leanings
The politics are not super clear, if there are any. I think Kirk‘s assassination is much more akin to John Lennon’s murder. It seems nuts to assassinate someone so political for apolitical reasons, but that is exactly what happened to Lennon.
There is a lot of misinformation in this post that is parroted from right-wing propaganda channels. I know we are not supposed to engage in ideological battles here on HN, so I am not going to try to convince anyone here. Simply try to fact check any of the individual claims here by a simple web-search, and the whole argument will fall apart on factual ground very quickly.
In the same practical bucket. Horseshoe theory [1]. (Anyone willing to use violence to promote their politics has more akin with others willing to cross that threshold than with anything in the normal political universe.)
Horseshoe theory is not a serious theory. Nobody who takes political science seriously puts any merit into horseshoe theory, any more then they put in the horoscope or the predictions of Nostradamus.
There is zero evidence that horseshoe theory describes our political reality. It is merely a convenient narrative among centrists (or even right-wingers) simply because it “feels right” and is therefor self-evident, i.e. right because of the vibes.
You’re saying the tactics of the far left and far right don’t bear striking resemblance in a democratic system? (Their values, populations and guiding ideologies are obviously different. But they’re also heterogenous within group.)
Extremism is, broadly, extremism. Combating specific instances requires more nuance. But calling it out does not.
I am saying that this theory only exists as a meme. It has exactly zero academic rigor and should be taken as seriously as any conspiracy theory or crackpot theory you find online.
Whatever you read from this theory is, just like, your opinion, and nothing more.
It is a shorthand for what you think is similar. There are no evidence for this theory.
This theory is easily testable. If this theory were true, we would have evidence for it. We don‘t. Even your own link clearly states that. Therefor we don‘t have any reason to believe it is true, other then our own biases.
The refutations that point out the same people aren’t swinging between far left and right is usual social science bullshittery—nobody claimed that. The actual claim—my claim—is around tactics. I am not aware of an academic refutation of this.
I'd ordinarily be sympathetic to the argument that calling it a theory is nonsense. But (a) I didn't name it, (b) it's a term of popular discourse and (c) political science is full of hypotheses branded as theories.
This is all explained in the link you yourself posted. It also cites several studies which debunk the theory.
> my claim—is around tactics. I am not aware of an academic refutation of this.
This is Motte and Baily. But still, this weaker claim is also testable. Define your tactics, and count the occurrences. If horseshoe theory is right, then the far (sic) left and the far right should have a similar number of occurrences, either one higher then that of the political center. You are making a testable claim, then test it, otherwise I have no reason to believe it, and neither does academia (and they don‘t).
If you are speaking tactics. The far (sic) left is known to engage in mass demonstration, direct action and mutual aid. Direct action includes stuff like blocking highways, blocking shipping docks, general strikes, etc. when does the far right ever engage in those sorts of tactics? Mutual aid includes stuff like anti-racism workshops, food not bombs, doctors without borders, bail funds, heck Alcoholics Anonymous is an Anarchist Mutual Aid organization. When does the far right ever use mutual aid as a tactic?
The only type of shared tactic that the far left and the far right engage with is political violence and if you count the occurrences of you will see that the far right has far more occurrences then the far left. Heck if you count state violence as political violence by the center you would find that the center is the most violent political ideology by far.
But it doesn’t? Those studies refute specific interpretations, in my mind comically over-specific ones.
> When does the far right ever use mutual aid as a tactic?
Le Bastion. Welfare chauvinism more broadly. The oath keepers running around doing disaster recovery and whatnot.
> only type of shared tactic that the far left and the far right engage with is political violence and if you count the occurrences of you will see that the far right has far more occurrences then the far left
What people I see are usually referring to is that the far right and far left end up being fundamentally anti-liberal, and in their anti-liberal beliefs they more closely resemble each other (meet back up on the horse shoe) than they do the mainstream liberal left/right.
Figure 4 shows left-wing political violence completely flat with a 1 year decrease in right wing violence as the basis for your “flipped” narrative. Table 1 shows the last 10 years highlighting 152 right wing attacks causing 112 deaths and 35 left wing attacks causing 13 deaths…
I don’t think OP made a claim of similar prevalence. Just that we have legitimately threatening elements on both the far/anarchist left and far/faschist right.
You quoted the "trend has recently flipped" but the graph showing the total numbers show right wing violence is still by far the majority, and the 2025 datapoint was incomplete.
> My too-online left friends worship Luigi IRL
And? When you see systemic/societal killing regularly, are we supposed to clutch pearls when one very very rich and powerful guy dies?
> got in over their heads on a protest action
Yeah, two small groups that weren't connected were all made an example of.
> Someone left-aligned
Total conjecture.
The weather underground accidentally killed more of their own than they did in their actual bombings. They went after property. Right wing terror goes after soft targets like kids and worshipers.
Does any of this actually address what I said that rightwing terror groups are going completely unbothered?
Do we? There’s videos of weird masked people calling themselves Patriot Front that seem to all have purchased all their clothing from the same vendor, and seem like well groomed fit men, odd for a group the normally consists of fat guys with beards, with not a single known member.
Regarding people damage: we’ve obviously had multiple left wing assassination attempts on Trump, United Healthcare CEO, the Israeli embassy staff, Charlie Kirk’s assassination, the UFC 250 terror attack, and more.
I can think of the attack on Nancy Pelosi’s husband as a possible right wing attack on a person but I can’t think of many more.
If you mean well, you should know that the specific term “Zionist occupied government” originated as part of an antisemitic conspiracy theory. To avoid confusion you should use different phrasing; something like “the government supports Israel” would express your meaning just as well.
Again, this phrasing was invented as part of an antisemitic conspiracy theory that has nothing to do with Netanyahu. I don’t intend to imply any antisemitic intent for someone who didn’t know this, as long as they recognize that they’re not trying to be antisemitic and choose one of the many alternative ways to say “I think my government is too friendly towards Israel” going forwards.
One of these days we as a species really need to learn that Zionism and Semitism are not the same Venn circle.
Not all Zionists are Semitic (or even Jewish) and not all Semites (or even Jews) are Zionists.
Now, it’s obviously extremely easy to conflate Zionism with Semitism, and vice versa, which is a trap both the actual antisemites and those most likely to point and yell “antisemite” seem wont to fall into.
Personally I’d call that borderline antisemitic, since in either case it’s conflating an ethno-nationalist political agenda with both an ethnicity and a nationality that may not subscribe to or support that political agenda at all.
Yeah, a lot of Jews oppose Zionism for religious reasons. It's not fair to lump them together like that.
The word antisemitism itself is pretty funny though, as a thought-terminating cliche.
Can you imagine if any time the news media criticized white people, I could get them cancelled, (or in some countries jailed), for their antiaryanism? Wouldn't that be silly?
Then again, maybe that comparison doesn't work. After all, to see Jews as your equals is antisemitic: https://archive.ph/InK8h
The claim that Jews control or manipulate governments has been an antisemitic claim going back hundreds of years in multiple different variations. So, even if semetic does not equal Jew does not equal Zionist, any claim that one or the other controls a government requires some substance. Otherwise, it fits one of the most recognized template of antisemitic false claims.
The Israeli government does support Zionism and it does have quite a lot of influence with western governments. In the US, Israeli-tied special interest groups donate significant sums of money to our politicians who then vote in ways that benefit Israel. I don't think it's fair to say "Jews control the world" and I can certainly understand the sensitivity of that statement but it's not wrong to say that Israel has significant influence over the foreign policy of a world superpower.
That isn’t the claim that was made, though… unless you conflate Zionists in government outside Israel (claim actually made) with Jews in governments outside Israel (claim not actually made), thereby making my point. And it’s a conflation that Mike Huckabee — as just one trivial example — puts the lie to.
Observing that AIPAC both exists and has significant influence over American politics — especially the side of American politics that started an illegal and unjust war with Iran absent a legitimate casus belli — isn’t the same thing as putting on the tinfoil beret and screaming about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and hasn’t been for quite a while.
It’s also important to remember that some of the most virulently antisemitic (meaning anti-Jewish) people alive are now, and long have been, actively Zionist precisely simply because they believe that restoring Jewish control over Israel will bring about the Christian-centric apocalypse of whomever claimed to be John of Patmos and thus delivery into eternal conscious torment any and every Jew that didn’t convert before the [entirely fictitious] Rapture.
That’s the fatal problem with equating Zionism and antisemitism in the first place… nothing stops someone from being rabidly both simultaneously.
And that’s all before we get to the nuance of there being plenty of Zionist-identifying Jews who are dead set against the specific form and flavor of Zionism currently controlling the Knesset.
> assuming there are Zionists everywhere is borderline antisemitic
It’s more just basic conspiracy theorizing. Assuming there is a secret group in charge of world affairs is a lot more comforting than facing the reality that we’re careening towards political anarchy on multiple continents. I don’t think one need be anti-Semitic to subscribe to that system.
It’s 2026, every group is secretly in charge to someone. The Russians, the deep state, the Indians [1]. It’s a chaotic world and even the brightest among us are struggling to thread a coherent narrative about it. That leaves lots of room for the less bright to do their thing.
No. I don't deny other groups could get attacked sometimes or have something vile said about them, but it's not at the same scale and geographic spread the Jews are having it.
> how American authorities did not do much about "antifa"
What are you talking about, antifa has been a Trump bugbear since his first term.
A/I has been getting its shit seized since 2004 [1]. It started working with GazaWeb around 2024 [2]. It looks more like its PKK work got it in trouble [3].
Given the number of anti-left and anti-European power centers in the White House right now, it’s silly to jump to one’s pet conclusion when it comes to any Europe policy.
> Pretty sure the police won't come after you for criticizing disabled people or your colleagues' babies
Literally protected categories! No, criticism won’t get the cops after you in America. But also, no, criticizing Israel in America is commonplace and not really prosecuted. (The courts ruled the student stuff was illegal.)
This is a neo-nazi maxim. It sounds reasonable until you realize that the people who say this are hoping you'll arrive at an antisemitic answer. Yes, criticizing "jews" broadly is going to get you a negative reaction. No, that does not mean that "jews rule over you". You're not going to get a great response saying the n-word either, but that doesn't mean Black people are your oppressors.
Same kind of drivel as "there's nothing wrong with defending your own people", until you realize that "your own people" = "the racial majority" and "defending" = "defending against other races". Take a moment to think about what you're saying and why people say it. These aren't universal truths; it only takes a moment to find a counterexample that should prove to you that these aren't worthy of being guiding beliefs.
Anyone living by these kinds of figures of speech isn't a critical thinker, which is pretty much why they exist. Authoritarians benefit when you don't think too hard about how things work.
There's nowhere in the entire country you'd face legal consequences for criticizing Hamas. In the UK, maybe, depending how you do it (someone was arrested for posting "fuck Palestine and fuck Hamas").
Non-citizen students were also deported from the US for criticizing Israel. Courts later ruled this unconstitutional since the 1A still applies to them, but it was too late for those students.
> nowhere in the entire country you'd face legal consequences for criticizing Hamas
> Courts later ruled this unconstitutional
Those students faced practical consequences. There are plenty of places in America where expressing any doubts about the moral superiority of Palestinians over Israelis (note: I’m intentionally referring to the people) could get you isolated to the point of facing real consequences. Pretending this isn’t a polarizing debate across the political spectrum is a bit strange.
It's a legal consequence. This isn't like when customers or corps stop doing business with someone, our government took away visas and deported them.
And it's still not even that polarizing. Both major parties are still pro-Israel. This is only barely starting to change. And in the few cities where Israel is unpopular, there are plenty of openly Zionist businesses.
If you want to focus on the status quo, it was anti-BDS laws. This is the most they can do thanks to the 1A, and it still manages to be exceptional and shouldn't really be legal. Netherlands and much of Europe have no 1A equivalent, they'll just fine or jail people.
> Netherlands and much of Europe have no 1A equivalent, they'll just fine or jail people
For lots of stuff including Islamophobia.
This forced victimhood mentality among activists does real damage to the pro-Palestinian cause. If you’re advocating for something, the advocacy should not dwarf the cause.
They do it for all sorts of "hate speech" as it may offend locals, but Israel is usually the one country they can't criticize. Or at least the threshold is very different from criticizing any other country.
Also, I don't particularly care about Palestine as a country. Frankly it's insulting and also unwise how those protestors will wave any flag except our own.
That is a very recent change, one that is only true because of the Gaza genocide. Before the Gaza genocide criticizing Israel would be your political doom. So much so there is even a compilation of John Steward stating this fact.
The city of Reykjavík, Iceland, tried to boycott Israel back in 2015 but had to abandon the attempt because of the political backlash. In the 10 years since we can clearly see how justified those attempts were.
Even Democrats fully supported the Gaza war. Seems it really took Trump starting an unpopular, losing war against Iran and openly saying Israel told him to do it.
Do you know why that is the case? Its because calling a war a genocide is basically extremist propaganda. It isn't a charge based in fact.
HAMAS uses child soldiers, then when they inevitable get killed claim that X number of children were killed in the war. HAMAS doesn't use uniforms so they can claim when their fighters die that a civilian was killed. These things are warcrimes exactly because it creates such confusion and because it increases the chance that actual civilians will get killed.
The people who make such charges are absolutely doing it to create the environment where they can commit atrocities. HAMAS publicly admits such things. Additionally, most of the images and videos from Gaza that got people upset in 2024 were generated by LLMs. It was pretty obvious too. Plenty of images with the wrong number of fingers or limbs were posted around that time. That's why such speech gets treated the way it does, not because of some sort of grand conspiracy.
PS Nobody debates the finer points of fascist public policy. The things people don't like are about vilifying a group of people and then creating a "final solution". Being part of a propaganda effort to do it again isn't a great look. That's why such speech is treated how it is.
It shouldn't revolve around Zionism, but more and more it's clear that if you oppose Israeli military offensives as a Westerner, the powers that be will brand you a terrorist and respond as if you were a threat.
A/I is not a terrorist organization, and they only got branded as such when operatives started taking direct action in response to the Genocide that Israel is committing presently. The cited "terrorist" actions so far have been spray-painting military property with anti-genocide messages: Criminal vandalism, sure. But absolutely not terrorism!
That would be like when Google refused to take on military contracts with the US, but then they bent over backwards to do them with Israel. This is also when they changed a ton of internal policies to control employee expression, which started even before those interns broke into TK's office.
But honestly, the A/I situation doesn't look like that. Trump administration has been going after regular Antifa orgs for a long time.
How much more on the nose can you be than being anti-antifascist? It is obvious the double negative cancels out.
To all the Americans who think authoritarianism is something that happens elsewhere and that they would've stood up and stopped it: What are you waiting for?
it's funny to look at people who are outraged by us interference in dutch politics, but at the same time, no one cares that the united states imposes sanctions on countries that pursue their policies towards iran and russia, interfering in their foreign policy. Double standards and damn BBC bots
A/I was filled with calls for violence and direct threats. This is a good thing.
Besides, Parler had the same fate and was forced to change their infrastructure. Instead of the government, it was big tech colluding with the Biden administration.
I thought this was a good thing, according to all of the articles and comments I saw shortly after on HN.
chabes | 5 hours ago
rdtsc | 5 hours ago
Confiscates / seized. Pretty sure a french speaking poster mistranslated. It's "confisquer" in french.
[OP] jeroenhd | 5 hours ago
rdtsc | 2 hours ago
citywide-fondue | 5 hours ago
verdverm | 5 hours ago
KK7NIL | 5 hours ago
The EUV lenses are made by Zeiss in Germany AFAIK. But to even suggest that ASML is dictating US-Dutch diplomacy, two NATO members with similar values and goals, is hilariously off.
verdverm | 5 hours ago
> The light source as a whole is engineered by Cymer, a San Diego company ASML bought in 2013 specifically to control this piece.
https://www.makesureiknowit.com/blog/who-supplies-asml
I'm not suggesting dictation, just that there are deep ties in the global supply chain that make decoupling impossible.
but wow, way to read way too much into this and extrapolate into hyperbole?
citywide-fondue | 5 hours ago
From my reading of the article, it seems like the U.S. was able to order around the police in Amsterdam without going through a system to check if the Dutch government approves of the action. That’s mostly my confusion.
MomsAVoxell | 4 hours ago
KK7NIL | 4 hours ago
Obviously not a perfect analogy but it shows that US-Dutch relationships very much predate ASML and extend far beyond commercial interests. I have a similar problem with the Taiwan "silicon shield" meme that's been going around, as if the US hasn't supported the republican Chinese forces since the 30's, including with troops on the ground.
MomsAVoxell | 2 hours ago
Why is it allowed to impose its force on the civilians it is protecting?
Is it because A/I are "terrorists" and "terrorists" are NATO responsibility?
KK7NIL | 2 hours ago
I don't think co-operation on this type of crime is part of the treaty itself but the treaty doesn't mean much if the two countries don't have a good diplomatic relationship.
> Is it because A/I are "terrorists" and "terrorists" are NATO responsibility?
Wtf are you on about?
impossiblefork | 5 hours ago
verdverm | 4 hours ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50091084
coliveira | 4 hours ago
verdverm | 4 hours ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50091084
I agree and find my country's behavior unacceptable as well. Some of us are doing what we can under the current regime, but it is not easy and comes with real risk. America is not in a good place right now.
topspin | 2 hours ago
Yes, it does. Dependence may be mutual, but the leverage is not equal. Trump could make a Truth Social post tomorrow and erase billions of ASML market cap, and they know he's irrational enough to do it. ASML and the Netherlands can't reciprocate such force without inflicting great harm on themselves.
I'm not arguing that's right or just. Only that it is. If you doubt it, go figure out why ASML shares dropped ~5% last April 7th. These people hang on the US government's every utterance.
Something to think about when selecting a host nation for your international hacktivist IT operation.
teekert | 4 hours ago
All this sovereignty stuff is still quite contained in our nerd bubble I feel.
wickedwiesel | 4 hours ago
We will see the impact of this in a few years..
Five years ago it became its own official federal IT architecture guideline: https://nationale-it-architekturrichtlinie.gov.de/2_Architek...
citywide-fondue | 4 hours ago
Again, would love to hear a domain expert weigh in! Also because I walk past this data center every day :)
CodeWriter23 | 4 hours ago
JumpCrisscross | 4 hours ago
And Dutch voters’ views on policing are currently tending right: “84 percent of Dutch adults believe police struggle to maintain authority. Ten percent disagreed, and 6 percent said they had no opinion” [2].
[1] https://www.government.nl/latest/weblogs/the-work-of-the-min...
[2] https://nltimes.nl/2026/07/12/80-dutch-think-police-authorit...
FaridIO | 4 hours ago
TechnicalVault | 3 hours ago
nailer | 2 hours ago
TheGamerUncle | 5 hours ago
This is shameful and the Dutch should be also ashamed to act as lap dogs.
MSFT_Edging | 5 hours ago
One group threatens property damage, the other people damage.
One of them is considered a terrorist org.
HEmanZ | 4 hours ago
Someone left-aligned (and acting alone, not an official terrorist group) assassinated Charlie Kirk in the US.
A group of left aligned people got in over their heads on a protest action and one shot a police officer.
My too-online left friends worship Luigi IRL, one even recently got a tattoo meant to reference him.
Right wing attacks used to be more common than left aligned ones in the US, but that trend has recently flipped: https://www.csis.org/analysis/left-wing-terrorism-and-politi...
I’m not convinced there are any real terrorist groups operating the way e.g the Weathermen were back in the 70s. But there is some kind of violent left tendency rising, and we could easily be headed that way.
decidu0us9034 | 4 hours ago
dbvn | 4 hours ago
runarberg | 4 hours ago
HEmanZ | 2 hours ago
nailer | 2 hours ago
runarberg | 4 hours ago
et-al | 4 hours ago
JumpCrisscross | 4 hours ago
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
runarberg | 4 hours ago
There is zero evidence that horseshoe theory describes our political reality. It is merely a convenient narrative among centrists (or even right-wingers) simply because it “feels right” and is therefor self-evident, i.e. right because of the vibes.
JumpCrisscross | 3 hours ago
Extremism is, broadly, extremism. Combating specific instances requires more nuance. But calling it out does not.
runarberg | 3 hours ago
Whatever you read from this theory is, just like, your opinion, and nothing more.
JumpCrisscross | an hour ago
Sure. It’s shorthand for illiberal interests being broadly similar, something that does have explanatory value.
> should be taken as seriously as any conspiracy theory or crackpot theory you find online
Do you have a good academic refutation?
runarberg | an hour ago
This theory is easily testable. If this theory were true, we would have evidence for it. We don‘t. Even your own link clearly states that. Therefor we don‘t have any reason to believe it is true, other then our own biases.
JumpCrisscross | an hour ago
In what form? Who has tested it?
The refutations that point out the same people aren’t swinging between far left and right is usual social science bullshittery—nobody claimed that. The actual claim—my claim—is around tactics. I am not aware of an academic refutation of this.
I'd ordinarily be sympathetic to the argument that calling it a theory is nonsense. But (a) I didn't name it, (b) it's a term of popular discourse and (c) political science is full of hypotheses branded as theories.
runarberg | 55 minutes ago
> my claim—is around tactics. I am not aware of an academic refutation of this.
This is Motte and Baily. But still, this weaker claim is also testable. Define your tactics, and count the occurrences. If horseshoe theory is right, then the far (sic) left and the far right should have a similar number of occurrences, either one higher then that of the political center. You are making a testable claim, then test it, otherwise I have no reason to believe it, and neither does academia (and they don‘t).
If you are speaking tactics. The far (sic) left is known to engage in mass demonstration, direct action and mutual aid. Direct action includes stuff like blocking highways, blocking shipping docks, general strikes, etc. when does the far right ever engage in those sorts of tactics? Mutual aid includes stuff like anti-racism workshops, food not bombs, doctors without borders, bail funds, heck Alcoholics Anonymous is an Anarchist Mutual Aid organization. When does the far right ever use mutual aid as a tactic?
The only type of shared tactic that the far left and the far right engage with is political violence and if you count the occurrences of you will see that the far right has far more occurrences then the far left. Heck if you count state violence as political violence by the center you would find that the center is the most violent political ideology by far.
JumpCrisscross | 27 minutes ago
But it doesn’t? Those studies refute specific interpretations, in my mind comically over-specific ones.
> When does the far right ever use mutual aid as a tactic?
Le Bastion. Welfare chauvinism more broadly. The oath keepers running around doing disaster recovery and whatnot.
> only type of shared tactic that the far left and the far right engage with is political violence and if you count the occurrences of you will see that the far right has far more occurrences then the far left
Fair and agreed.
nozzlegear | 2 hours ago
HEmanZ | 2 hours ago
What people I see are usually referring to is that the far right and far left end up being fundamentally anti-liberal, and in their anti-liberal beliefs they more closely resemble each other (meet back up on the horse shoe) than they do the mainstream liberal left/right.
HEmanZ | 2 hours ago
Did you assume I’d think otherwise?
mikeyouse | 4 hours ago
JumpCrisscross | 4 hours ago
MSFT_Edging | 4 hours ago
> My too-online left friends worship Luigi IRL
And? When you see systemic/societal killing regularly, are we supposed to clutch pearls when one very very rich and powerful guy dies?
> got in over their heads on a protest action
Yeah, two small groups that weren't connected were all made an example of.
> Someone left-aligned
Total conjecture.
The weather underground accidentally killed more of their own than they did in their actual bombings. They went after property. Right wing terror goes after soft targets like kids and worshipers.
Does any of this actually address what I said that rightwing terror groups are going completely unbothered?
nailer | 2 hours ago
Regarding people damage: we’ve obviously had multiple left wing assassination attempts on Trump, United Healthcare CEO, the Israeli embassy staff, Charlie Kirk’s assassination, the UFC 250 terror attack, and more.
I can think of the attack on Nancy Pelosi’s husband as a possible right wing attack on a person but I can’t think of many more.
gvfsa | 5 hours ago
_ache_ | 5 hours ago
Otherwise, assuming there are Zionists everywhere is borderline antisemitic.
gvfsa | 5 hours ago
SpicyLemonZest | 5 hours ago
1945 | 4 hours ago
"I know what America is. America is a thing you can move very easily, move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." - Netanyahu
That's an occupation with no creative interpretation necessary.
SpicyLemonZest | 4 hours ago
plus | 4 hours ago
yonisto | 4 hours ago
tarkin2 | 4 hours ago
pydry | 4 hours ago
yawpitch | 5 hours ago
Not all Zionists are Semitic (or even Jewish) and not all Semites (or even Jews) are Zionists.
Now, it’s obviously extremely easy to conflate Zionism with Semitism, and vice versa, which is a trap both the actual antisemites and those most likely to point and yell “antisemite” seem wont to fall into.
Personally I’d call that borderline antisemitic, since in either case it’s conflating an ethno-nationalist political agenda with both an ethnicity and a nationality that may not subscribe to or support that political agenda at all.
andai | 4 hours ago
The word antisemitism itself is pretty funny though, as a thought-terminating cliche.
Can you imagine if any time the news media criticized white people, I could get them cancelled, (or in some countries jailed), for their antiaryanism? Wouldn't that be silly?
Then again, maybe that comparison doesn't work. After all, to see Jews as your equals is antisemitic: https://archive.ph/InK8h
itaifrenkel | 4 hours ago
wildzzz | 4 hours ago
yawpitch | an hour ago
Observing that AIPAC both exists and has significant influence over American politics — especially the side of American politics that started an illegal and unjust war with Iran absent a legitimate casus belli — isn’t the same thing as putting on the tinfoil beret and screaming about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and hasn’t been for quite a while.
It’s also important to remember that some of the most virulently antisemitic (meaning anti-Jewish) people alive are now, and long have been, actively Zionist precisely simply because they believe that restoring Jewish control over Israel will bring about the Christian-centric apocalypse of whomever claimed to be John of Patmos and thus delivery into eternal conscious torment any and every Jew that didn’t convert before the [entirely fictitious] Rapture.
That’s the fatal problem with equating Zionism and antisemitism in the first place… nothing stops someone from being rabidly both simultaneously.
And that’s all before we get to the nuance of there being plenty of Zionist-identifying Jews who are dead set against the specific form and flavor of Zionism currently controlling the Knesset.
JumpCrisscross | 5 hours ago
It’s more just basic conspiracy theorizing. Assuming there is a secret group in charge of world affairs is a lot more comforting than facing the reality that we’re careening towards political anarchy on multiple continents. I don’t think one need be anti-Semitic to subscribe to that system.
weatherlite | 4 hours ago
Ah and it just so happens to be the Jews again, gee what a shocker never heard that before. And no , not antisemitic at all!
JumpCrisscross | 4 hours ago
It’s 2026, every group is secretly in charge to someone. The Russians, the deep state, the Indians [1]. It’s a chaotic world and even the brightest among us are struggling to thread a coherent narrative about it. That leaves lots of room for the less bright to do their thing.
[1] https://m.economictimes.com/news/international/global-trends...
weatherlite | 4 hours ago
JumpCrisscross | 5 hours ago
What are you talking about, antifa has been a Trump bugbear since his first term.
A/I has been getting its shit seized since 2004 [1]. It started working with GazaWeb around 2024 [2]. It looks more like its PKK work got it in trouble [3].
Given the number of anti-left and anti-European power centers in the White House right now, it’s silly to jump to one’s pet conclusion when it comes to any Europe policy.
[1] https://www.anarchistnews.org/content/autisticiinventati-pre...
[2] https://archive.org/wayback/available?url=gazaweb.noblogs.or...
[3] https://www.anarchistnews.org/content/autisticiinventati-pre...
tamimio | 5 hours ago
snapcaster | 4 hours ago
weatherlite | 4 hours ago
bakugo | 4 hours ago
JumpCrisscross | 4 hours ago
Literally protected categories! No, criticism won’t get the cops after you in America. But also, no, criticizing Israel in America is commonplace and not really prosecuted. (The courts ruled the student stuff was illegal.)
tamimio | 4 hours ago
mahboi | 4 hours ago
RIMR | 4 hours ago
Same kind of drivel as "there's nothing wrong with defending your own people", until you realize that "your own people" = "the racial majority" and "defending" = "defending against other races". Take a moment to think about what you're saying and why people say it. These aren't universal truths; it only takes a moment to find a counterexample that should prove to you that these aren't worthy of being guiding beliefs.
Anyone living by these kinds of figures of speech isn't a critical thinker, which is pretty much why they exist. Authoritarians benefit when you don't think too hard about how things work.
mahboi | 4 hours ago
JumpCrisscross | 4 hours ago
And yet criticizing Israel is in the political mainstream in multiple cities…
I’d honestly say it’s more risky to criticize Hamas in some New York circles than it is Israel.
mahboi | 4 hours ago
Non-citizen students were also deported from the US for criticizing Israel. Courts later ruled this unconstitutional since the 1A still applies to them, but it was too late for those students.
JumpCrisscross | 4 hours ago
> Courts later ruled this unconstitutional
Those students faced practical consequences. There are plenty of places in America where expressing any doubts about the moral superiority of Palestinians over Israelis (note: I’m intentionally referring to the people) could get you isolated to the point of facing real consequences. Pretending this isn’t a polarizing debate across the political spectrum is a bit strange.
mahboi | 4 hours ago
And it's still not even that polarizing. Both major parties are still pro-Israel. This is only barely starting to change. And in the few cities where Israel is unpopular, there are plenty of openly Zionist businesses.
JumpCrisscross | 4 hours ago
Until recently, American voters were broadly pro-Israel.
> in the few cities where Israel is unpopular, there are plenty of openly Zionist businesses
Same for pro-Palestinian ones. That’s healthy.
Conflating every illegal thing Trump has tried to do with the status quo is internally inconsistent.
mahboi | 3 hours ago
JumpCrisscross | 3 hours ago
For lots of stuff including Islamophobia.
This forced victimhood mentality among activists does real damage to the pro-Palestinian cause. If you’re advocating for something, the advocacy should not dwarf the cause.
mahboi | 2 hours ago
Also, I don't particularly care about Palestine as a country. Frankly it's insulting and also unwise how those protestors will wave any flag except our own.
runarberg | 4 hours ago
The city of Reykjavík, Iceland, tried to boycott Israel back in 2015 but had to abandon the attempt because of the political backlash. In the 10 years since we can clearly see how justified those attempts were.
mahboi | 4 hours ago
JumpCrisscross | 3 hours ago
Americans were broadly pro-Israel after October 7. We probably would have remained so if Netanyahu hadn’t showed his hand so clearly.
hunterpayne | an hour ago
HAMAS uses child soldiers, then when they inevitable get killed claim that X number of children were killed in the war. HAMAS doesn't use uniforms so they can claim when their fighters die that a civilian was killed. These things are warcrimes exactly because it creates such confusion and because it increases the chance that actual civilians will get killed.
The people who make such charges are absolutely doing it to create the environment where they can commit atrocities. HAMAS publicly admits such things. Additionally, most of the images and videos from Gaza that got people upset in 2024 were generated by LLMs. It was pretty obvious too. Plenty of images with the wrong number of fingers or limbs were posted around that time. That's why such speech gets treated the way it does, not because of some sort of grand conspiracy.
PS Nobody debates the finer points of fascist public policy. The things people don't like are about vilifying a group of people and then creating a "final solution". Being part of a propaganda effort to do it again isn't a great look. That's why such speech is treated how it is.
samyum | 4 hours ago
RIMR | 4 hours ago
A/I is not a terrorist organization, and they only got branded as such when operatives started taking direct action in response to the Genocide that Israel is committing presently. The cited "terrorist" actions so far have been spray-painting military property with anti-genocide messages: Criminal vandalism, sure. But absolutely not terrorism!
samyum | 4 hours ago
throwaway352362 | 4 hours ago
mahboi | 4 hours ago
But honestly, the A/I situation doesn't look like that. Trump administration has been going after regular Antifa orgs for a long time.
hackermailman | 5 hours ago
The Dutch police imaged the drive, gave it to the Americans and gave the server back to XS4ALL which itself appears to have shutdown too I think
illright | 5 hours ago
ChrisArchitect | 5 hours ago
https://wallhop.io/https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2026/10/14/poli...
meindnoch | 5 hours ago
yawpitch | 5 hours ago
caaqil | 5 hours ago
riedel | 5 hours ago
[0] https://keepitfree.ai/
vrganj | 4 hours ago
To all the Americans who think authoritarianism is something that happens elsewhere and that they would've stood up and stopped it: What are you waiting for?
nailer | 2 hours ago
Antifascist simply means “anti fascist” in the same way “make america great again” simply means “make America great again”.
Sometimes the name a Group picks for itself doesn’t match it’s actual behaviour. Love, the democratic peoples Republic of Korea.
TrueRider | 3 hours ago
elmer2 | 3 hours ago
Besides, Parler had the same fate and was forced to change their infrastructure. Instead of the government, it was big tech colluding with the Biden administration.
I thought this was a good thing, according to all of the articles and comments I saw shortly after on HN.