I have nothing to say about this company's long term potential, but I'm curious to know whether this will become an enormous "tik stok" like SK Hynix became in South Korea. I've watched a short documentary about the investment mania in SK and it's really scary.
Morgan Stanley's target price for SPCX in their report is $300, with $8 being the space component, and the $292 being everything else, like what actually gets put into space. The Morgan Stanley report doesn't say SPCX is worth $8/share. Just wanted to be clear and not have a conversation based on vague implications.
I lived through the crash of 1989, the Dot Com crash in 2000, the GFC of 2008, and whatever the crash and WSB speculation in 2020 were called. None of them had a tiny blast radius like you suggest.
If 30% of adults in your country suddenly lose, say, half their wealth from a stock market crash, it's going to affect everyone in the country - not just the investors.
To use an example, the Great Depression wasn't sunshine and roses even for the people who kept all their money under the mattress. Their job was just as likely to go out of business.
South Korea has opened its financial doors to the outside world, and since SK Hynix is a publicly traded company, that's allowed capital to flow in and take control of the company.
Why does the US stock market keep having record years while the population doesn't seem to benefit, whereas the opposite is happening in China? Isn't that a failure of US capitalism?
The population in china is falling off a cliff....low birth rates, collapsing property prices (the main vehicle for personal investment), slowing ecconomy.
This memory stock popping on IPO has nothing to do with how well/bad capitalism provides in the USA. This is entirely about Chinese investors speculating on this company's ability to grow and undercut some Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron. Nobody knows on IPO day if a company will grow into the expectations of the investors.
And China's population mostly invested in Evergrande real estate, not stocks. Lots of workers in the US are at least invested in the stock market via their 401k/IRA, but the same isn't true of Chinese workers.
Also worth reiterating that most US stocks aren't doing great. The top 10 by market cap keep dragging the indexes into growth, but success is heavily biased towards the monster caps.
In the US, shareholders get rich while regular people get left behind. In China, shareholders returns seem quite bad, and standards of living seem to actually improve. Granted, China started from a much lower point, which makes rapid growth a lot easier.
imo, every form of country order has a tipping point from where it starts deteriorating at record speed - cannot tell exactly what comes after ultimate capitalism but I think it's hitting peak points
Except the CCP seems perfectly fine with with allowing (semi) private companies to compete and innovate freely and it has worked out quite well for them..
Shovels have always been the better out of the two investments.
There were rumours about China grabbing hold of one of ASML's machines, but with no additional information on this it's safe to assume they're still hammering out 7nm chips using DUV at piss poor yields.
Except in China’s case where they eventually figured out how to make shovels themselves in plenty of other industries (and likely at some point in the future chip fabrication as well)
EU: Perhaps we should also spend a few billion on attracting american glue manufacturers so they open a factory and a half here so we can catch up in this chip making business.
EU: Our people generally live longer and happier lives plus our countries are some of the safest on Earth. Better throw that all away and follow the Americans into hell so our elites can make slightly more money!
CXMT uses old Qimonda patents (even though Qimonda's tech is now outdated), and the former CEO of Qimonda is currently building a fab for an FeRAM-based alternative to DRAM in Magdeburg. It's a gamble as FeRAM still suffers from a more limited lifetime than conventional DRAM at this moment but I think there are still somewhat interesting developments happening in Europe.
EU chip industry: best I can do is supply chips that are in 99% of industrial equipment and vehicles. Also supply the only machines in the world that enable leading edge lithography processes.
No comment on the second part, but the first part is wrong. EU doesn't have a moat in process technology anymore (since 2010s). They have a bunch of legacy fabs, like 350, 180 and 130 nm but Taiwan, US, and China (and others like Israel, or Singapore) have these too. EU is severely lacking behind chip design, production and packaging capabilities for industrial, automotive, and space kind of niche applications since the heavy divestment from semiconductors after 2008 financial crisis and 2015 Euro crisis.
On top of this, once European giants like NXP (formerly Philips semiconductors), Infineon (formerly Siemens semiconductors), and ST are actively reducing their footprint in Europe and moving to India or SE Asia.
In short: No, EU has no future in those markets as designer or producer of chips.
This is actually at the core of our (EU) problem. Instead of thinking, "here is this new technology, how can we build new markets/products out of it", our industry leaders always think, "here is this new technology, how can we apply it to our existing industries".
You can see it a lot in AI, right now. AI4industry is not where the gains are right now. We should be competing on training foundational models. Once the foundational models from US/China are strong enough, they will do AI4industry and we wouldn't have any edge on them anyway because their tech is more vertically integrated and they have better insight in how AI works under the hood.
There's no moat to AI models so it doesn't really matter who develops it first. If AGI happens none of it matters since it won't be controlled anyway. If there's an exponential wall then everyone will be at it within 12 months of the first person hitting it and then it's better not to have spent the cash pioneering the path.
The long-term idea that the we have to compete claim is based on is like AGI and it's gonna really care what Elon tells it to do. This is a dumb idea regardless of how it fails.
AI models are seeming the ultimate in fungible commodities at this point, why spend on R&D?
In relative terms there is no innovation happening outside of that and some other smaller companies providing highly specialized components that are a part of the supply chain.
There isn’t just much if anything to brag about. ASML is great but it’s effectively a monopoly (for the time being) due to a large extent some correct historical choices.
Based on the empirical evidence we have ASML succeeded in spite of the EU not because of it (so “they” is bot exactly fair). There is not much EU has going on besides that when it comes to growth and innovation.
It’s a bit like Novo Nordisk, they had a huge win and then just focused on making as much money while it lasted while more innovative companies ate up their market.
To be fair, all high end chips are made in Asia with EU tooling. US happens to be the place where the managers are and the trade is facilitated. There has been some good progress to push Asia make cips in USA with EU machines however IIRC significant part of the chain is still in Asia and chips made in USA are shipped to Asia for further processing.
Edit: changed China with Asia to distance the comment from Taiwan-China based politics.
AFAIK the high end chips are made in Taiwan, that's not the same. Also there was an export control, so ASML couldn't sell the latest equipment to China.
> To be fair, all high end chips are made in China with EU tooling.
Did you mean Taiwan? Because depending on who you ask that is, or is not china.
The Chinese have been cut off from EU tooling for a while now. And their attempts to build out their own lithography setups have been a failure. Their 7nm process is, by all measures, not delivering the yields that one would need to make it really successful.
You know what, it's not something I know anything about but it seems like the "Taiwan is not part of China" folks are annoying and I haven't met the opposite kind so I guess I lean towards Taiwan is part of China now, giving the benefit of doubt to the other side of the flag war.
Hyperscalers are screwed, data center mania couldn’t even be completed during this massive spending spree, all while the people seemingly sitting on the sidelines are working on getting these things baked into the OS and chipsets in a way consumers wouldn’t notice
The fundamental issue is that for these systems bigger is essentially always better (if affordable). So if we can squash something like Kimi K3 down to run on a 'normal' system, that just incentivizes devs to increase the model size until once again we're at the limit of what can be run.
How would we do that? There's no historic precedent for that. Its fundamentally an information theory thing: what's the max amount of intelligence you can get out of 1 KB/MB/GB? There has to be a limit and I'm not convinced that it's far off.
I think this is the future - at least it will be for on-device models. Apple, for instance, will "bake silicon" once a year for their current model, and use that chip in all their devices.
Your example also counters your point: A lot of people do not care about 4k, and even less do care about 8k or above. We reached a point where most people are completely happy with the quality they get.
> Your example also counters your point: A lot of people do not care about 4k, and even less do care about 8k or above. We reached a point where most people are completely happy with the quality they get.
And when (not if) we get to the 4k (or 8k) equivalent of LLMs, they'll just be baked into hardware and we'll have near instant responses while running locally.
There is no future where OpenAI, Anthropic, etc survive with their current business model; at some point we will hit a point where training a new model is done only every 5 years or so, and in that scenario we aren't going to be running models of pricey server GPUs with latencies measured in seconds and full responses measured in minutes.
We'll be running locally with sub-millisecond latencies and responses measured in milliseconds. There is no way for any big company to compete with the current business plan of selling inference or subscriptions.
2K, 4K, and 8K+ TVs have been around forever, and although 4K has become the norm, it's widely accepted that there isn't much benefit for most people above 1080p
Depends on distance and size, there is a lovely chart. My projector at 10 feet away is night and day difference at 4k. Mathematically 8k should look identical, so I haven’t spent the money to try it to confirm.
The 1080p thing is true in the age of 40” TVs but not so much now, think Costco has a 95” TV if not 100”.
I can definitely tell the difference between 1080 and 4k on my 55inch at around the recommended viewing distance. Less so on a 42 inch. A 4k image will look good even on a projector, as you say.
Personally I think 4k (with HDR) is good enough for consumer use, so agree with the parent theoretically just not quantitatively.
It did take around 20 years from DVD to 4k Bluray though.
It depends on TV size. If you've ever experienced Netflix on a 75" TV, 1080p content looks mediocre on it. So really it's better expressed as "there isn't much benefit for most TV sizes."
I wont quite argue, that 1080p is always enough on a 75", but your example is more a Netflix problem; their compression results in hideous quality, and it's not really representative of what 1080p could be.
Talking about resolution is pointless without mentioning screen size and display tech. PPI is better, but doesn't always work well comparing between technologies.
Don't forget that it's only an assumption that scaling more results in better models. There may be a ceiling to that. If that is hit and the best performing possible model can run in little VRAM, your argument here doesn't hold anymore.
In a way it is actually the same thing that makes us accept AI as working in the first place. It only needs to be good enough for human perception. The same is probably true for compute.
I'd argue we've already hit the ceiling. Can you truly tell the different between SOTA models from 9 months ago and those from today? There are some improvements but they're mostly marginal.
Plus there is a chance the actual scaling that matters is beyond our reach. Think instead of TB models, PB or ZB models. We don't even have that kind of information. Humanity in its entire history hasn't generated 1ZB of information.
> Standard Def TV was plenty for 50 years. But when more was on offer, everyone went for it, and now you can't even buy a 480p TV.
And yet when we hit 4k, that's were people just stopped buying higher res. 8K is still useful, but only when the screen is so large that it doesn't fit in the room :-/
FWIW I still play PC games on 1080p (also has the nice side effect that I don't need to buy an overpriced highend GPU, nor use upscaling hacks like DLSS which trash image quality).
Once I start a conversation about Postgres query plans, maybe 95% of the knowledge will be almost certainly not needed, and for an inference provider there will be many more concurrent queries with reasonably large overlap. Maybe future architectures will be able to take advantage of this so not all parameters are needed in memory for almost all instances.
If we are talking about all knowledge, then I agree that the compression ratio is very impressive already.
Mixture of Experts is already used by pretty much all modern LLMs to address exactly this phenomenon.
Hopefully, future models can be trained to be even more aware of external knowledge, accessible through web search / RAG / whatever it will be then, and might not need to internalize much knowledge at all.
So far, frontier capability keeps getting shrunk to fit consumer level hardware. The lag time being over a year, though, precludes this from being called SOTA by the time it arrives.
There must be a limit, I agree, but there have been no signs of approaching it yet. The most recent cohort of small models have shown the biggest leap in capability so far.
> How would we do that? There's no historic precedent for that. Its fundamentally an information theory thing: what's the max amount of intelligence you can get out of 1 KB/MB/GB? There has to be a limit and I'm not convinced that it's far off.
Sure, it might be very near using the current approach, but... it might also be might be very far off because we are using the wrong approach.
I mean, look at the max amount of intelligence you can get out of a human brain powered by two bananas...
Though even if there are big further breakthroughs to be made here, they won’t necessarily be made soon, and if they aren’t made in the next ~10 years then they won’t really affect the outcome of chip investments made now or in the immediate future.
All the terms are squishy, but being sloppy about it, I think there's intelligence that needs to be in the model, and knowledge that could live in a database. Right now, models are memorizing a lot of stuff they don't need to. We know how to index lots of information on (comparatively slow) SSDs or across a network.
See Karpathy's "Cognitive Core" idea. (I don't have a good link)
I was recently skimming through some 20-30 old books about Information Retrieval (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_retrieval), and it was immediately quite striking to me that LLMs are the culmination of the integration and development of many ideas in IR that were impractical or theoretical back then. Decoupling the database from the search interface would make the relationship between modern AI and IR even clearer.
> How would we do that? There's no historic precedent for that. Its fundamentally an information theory thing
Maybe? Human science history is absolutely littered with examples of things that were “constrained” by a fundamental law … until they weren’t, because we’d misunderstood or misapplied the law.
Historical precedent: Quickselect, or any other discovery of a surprising algorithmic speed-up.
LLMs haven’t been on the scene for very long. There’s still lots of room for efficiency discoveries. Plus, I keep hearing quantum is going to be a big deal in the next few years.
Super interesting, when Quantum computing would enable really large models, or much larger contexts. But QRAM is even more behind than pure fault-tolerant gates.
I'm claiming that the max amount of intelligence you get out of a 100GB model is unlikely to be that much lower than what you can get out of a 1TB model.
That depends on whether you can separate intelligence from memorization. I think we can agree that theres more than 1 TB of memorizable information in the world, even when highly compressed.
Are you thinking of fundamental architectural changes (like the Transformer)? Or incremental (like MoE or GQA)? Are there specific neolabs or techs you are following that lead you to this prediction?
Indeed it seems quite possible we are one architecture breakthrough away from existing chip stock driving us all the way to ASI.
Nobody has done AFAIK the information theory to prove it’s not possible.
Yeah, you can directly print the SOTA AI model on the chip. I also believe this can be done on older process nodes. The most important factor would be speed. How fast can you go from new model to new chip?
SoTA AI will move well past 1TB+ memory requirements in 1 year or so.
Also, you will be able to play with much more competent models locally. They will still feel like children compared to the adults living in the SoTA region.
I think the chipmakers are pretty securely set up here, the usual cyclical issues aside. Between the stubborn resistance of the data to being compressed without significant loss, and to a lesser extent the ability to do more with more memory (we’re surely at diminishing returns for LLMs already, but diminishing doesn’t mean zero) it seems like a fairly safe guess (I am not an expert on anything) that for the next decade at least you’ll still want at least 128-256GiB of video RAM to have a comfortably “SOTA-enough” experience. Then the other side of the rectangle comes from putting that VRAM in every consumer and office-worker device. Selling everything at a big premium to a few efficiency-obsessed SaaS providers is what you do when you’re temporarily supply-constrained. Sidelining the SaaS middlemen and selling to gloriously inefficient consumers who will leave their laptops closed for most of the day is the dream. This is probably not unrelated to the fact that the country which is currently making a big strategic push into memory manufacturing is also championing open models.
The more interesting question is: why does the rest of the world not increase their production prowess? I am aware of most of the reasons, but I am getting tired of the "China is better than the rest of the world". It is more that China did a lot of things that the others either failed to do or no longer wanted to do. Case in point is Germany: from "our cars are best" to "hey, chinese cars are now better" (or, cheaper, for a comparative quality). This constant complaining is so strange. Would that energy not be better spent to try to become better?
It is because in the west we suffer from self inflicted obstacles that make it impossible to get out of our own way. The Chinese gov must think they are playing on easy mode.
> Would that energy not be better spent to try to become better?
The problem is, shareholders have bled Western companies dry in the chase for returns on investments. There is no money left in the companies to retool them to be competitive with China.
Meanwhile, the CCP just pours dollars into their companies.
Unfortunately, there is no punishment in Western societies if you run a company into the ground as long as you pay your debts on the way out.
Because the capitalist west doesn't have strategic view, beside maybe on the defense sector.
Everything else must produce profits next quarter not in the next 3 years.
It's this. Wall Street won't allow american companies to make long term decisions and long term planning that cost money in the short term, because they want all that money immediately now. Like, right now now. If an executive promised they could deliver big profits in 5 years by spending the next two investing their profits, Wall Street would fire them and put in someone who will happily spend all the profit (plus debt) to do stock buybacks and dividend disbursals.
Both those companies only can exist because of massive amounts of corporate welfare. What exactly are you trying to argue here? That the government should give private capital more of the people's money while the country suffers from lack of healthcare, childcare, education, and housing?
It's even worse, the entire ideology is that industrial policy can't, by definition, be better than what the market would decide without interference. So every kind of actual strategic decision making (i.e. investing a few hundred billions in the industries of importance for the next decade(s), or at least in the infrastructure supporting it) would actually make matters worse. That is essentially what neoliberalism is all about.
This is core reason why the German industry became so irrelevant in the last 2 decades: The rail infrastructure became pseudo privatized and now is in shambles (IIRC only about 60% of trains arrive on time). The PV industry was axed by the conservatives about 15 years ago and now is completely dominated by China. Even now, as the other EU countries demand strategic investments - and again the German conservatives say this ought to happen without any new debt. "We can only spend what we have", to quote Merz. Imagine China saying this about chip production, or even Sam Altman about compute hardware...
It takes 2 years in EU to get approval to build a shed. Imagine how long it takes to get approvals for a chip factory which uses a lot of water and very toxic chemicals.
UK has been trying to get approvals for a new runway at Heathrow airport for over 20 years !!! now.
The EU isn't monolithic, you could probably do this fairly easily in someplace like Poland where there isn't a bureaucratic hell and a large supply of skilled workers and engineers. But of course, Poland and co. are the "lessers" in Europe where you outsource for cheaper labor, a prestigious thing like a cutting-edge chip fab would need to be built somewhere like Germany or the Netherlands, and so it never shall exist.
Mostly self-inflicted wounds in form of climate pledges, climate taxes and such. Because of the goal to achieve zero emissions goal and climate neutrality, we abandoned cheap energy sources such as coal and pushed our heavy industries out of Europe to China. We still need those products, so we import them from China while wondering why European industrial segment isn't growing. Even in the clean energy sector, most solar panels come from China.
The rest of the world is chasing models of investment in procurement of goods and services that get stuck on neoliberal capitalist antipatterns where every action demands a short-term profit motive. These are now very large-scale, highly-complex-supplychain manufacturing projects, and you cannot remain competitive if you are just Putting Faith In The Market to solve your problems. There's too much planning and sustained, structured goal-orientation required for investors or for the sort of contract-bid, public-private actions Western politicals are used to engaging with.
The short answer is VW doesn't have the ability to compete with China's best EV car company on EV price, factory automation, or raw input (labor, electricity, metals) economies of scale. The complaining is to get politicians / regulators to prevent the Chinese EVs from being imported into their domestic markets.
Chinese structural advantages: monetary policy, lower cost of living, better infrastructure (electrical and transportation are all new within the last 20 years), lower cost of {concrete, factory machinery, metals, electrical} due to economies of scale.
Chinese EV manufacturers advantages: they don't sell ICE cars, so they don't have any legacy customers, factories to retool, or brand migration issues. And they mostly stole their technology from hiring Tesla factory workers to moonlight for them and share the design, technology, tooling, and RE the Tesla finished product.
Major Western legacy car company disadvantages: Ford, Toyota, Volkswagen, etc... all have significant reasons why they can't or won't make the super risky attempt to go all-EV. They all have $10s of billions in debt they are still paying off for their current capital improvements. Those debts assume they contribute selling ICE because EVs last longer so they would sell fewer units per year. It's simply less risk to avoid making any EVs and pay politicians to protect their businesses than to try to compete with 10 year old Chinese phone-companies-turned-EV companies. On top of that, the worldwide demand for EVs is only about the volume of the single most popular model of Toyota. They would have to go into massive debt on a giant risk that consumers will want more EVs (and that the EVs they design/build will sell better than the current ICE cars they have meticulously crafted for 50-100 years).
> And they mostly stole their technology from hiring Tesla factory workers to moonlight for them and share the design, technology, tooling, and RE the Tesla finished product.
Did they successfully steal Tesla's low-cost EV plans too? Using the traditional definition of "steal" (depriving the owner of their property.) The argument that all China is good for is stealing falls apart[1] the second Chinese products become superior (see battery chemistry).
Perhaps Tesla should pay Chinese EV designers and PMs to moonlight for them to shorten their model development cycles.
Domestic Chinese EV competition is fierce, if one can survive or thrive in that boiler, dealing with VW, Ford, or even Tesla is a cake-walk.
1. Nevermind the growing body of fundamental research papers published. An area the US is turning it's back on because some people are gassing themselves up on they idea they are intrinsically, and immutably great/superior, therefore there is no cost to wrecking stuff to "own the libs"
If the golden stick of memory sitting on Trumps desk has its intended effect - and the US allow Apple to buy memory from CXMT then another 500% surge might happen.
The reverse might be worse for the US in the long run.
Right now, the US leads China in compute-heavy R&D because the US has access to more compute, and that compute has two components that China has limited ability to produce domestically: the GPUs themselves and the DRAM. A decent fraction of the balance of the plant is already produced in China.
If the US refuses to buy Chinese tech, then we may find ourselves paying more for compute than Chinese labs (DRAM first, but Huawei really really wants to catch up with the combined forces of TSMC, Nvidia and AMD) and falling behind on access to compute at acceptable prices.
If I were setting US policy, I would be trying to get the US-friendly companies to increase production and trying to encourage domestic production so that the US-friendly world can stay ahead. Getting held back by a DRAM cartel that wants to juice profits at the expense of output is not good for the US.
> If I were setting US policy, I would be trying to get the US-friendly companies to increase production and trying to encourage domestic production so that the US-friendly world can stay ahead.
That's what the CHIPS Act was supposed to do, but it got neutered for partisan political reasons. The CHIP Act was already about a decade too late. US policy is inconsistent across administrations, and the beneficial moves usually made very late in the game, around the time second- and third-order effects of the bad decisions become unbearable.
Most of the price increase did occur in Q4 2025 and most prices are fairly stable since then. Maybe this is different for LPDDR, GDDR, or HBM, but I would like to see evidence for that.
You would think that the DRAM shortage would propel Europe to invest in DRAM fabs. But no, they think it's too risky because prices may fall in the next few years and building fabs costs a lot of money and is hard. They'd rather sell other people's stuff than make it themselves.
Ergo, the Chinese will take this sector too without so much of a whimper from Europe.
In a couple of years the Chinese will own 25% of the DRAM market and make bumper profits akin to Big Tech. Europe's response will be to levy import tariffs to at least siphon off some money from it.
glimshe | 11 hours ago
_trampeltier | 11 hours ago
rokkamokka | 10 hours ago
Schlagbohrer | 10 hours ago
rapsey | 9 hours ago
fragmede | 9 hours ago
samrus | 11 hours ago
thenthenthen | 7 hours ago
overfeed | 3 hours ago
yogthos | an hour ago
Hasz | 6 hours ago
chii | 9 hours ago
i mean, it shouldn't be scary, because their failure is their own, and i doubt there would be collateral damage outside of those high risk investors.
It's scary for _them_, but it's an interesting case study for an outsider.
thephyber | 8 hours ago
I lived through the crash of 1989, the Dot Com crash in 2000, the GFC of 2008, and whatever the crash and WSB speculation in 2020 were called. None of them had a tiny blast radius like you suggest.
fwip | 8 hours ago
To use an example, the Great Depression wasn't sunshine and roses even for the people who kept all their money under the mattress. Their job was just as likely to go out of business.
addozhang | 7 hours ago
levanlevi | 10 hours ago
feverzsj | 10 hours ago
VulgarExigency | 10 hours ago
[OP] pingou | 9 hours ago
Tade0 | 9 hours ago
bawana | 9 hours ago
xboxnolifes | 4 hours ago
VulgarExigency | 8 hours ago
expedition32 | 6 hours ago
VulgarExigency | 4 hours ago
xboxnolifes | 4 hours ago
thephyber | 8 hours ago
This memory stock popping on IPO has nothing to do with how well/bad capitalism provides in the USA. This is entirely about Chinese investors speculating on this company's ability to grow and undercut some Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron. Nobody knows on IPO day if a company will grow into the expectations of the investors.
And China's population mostly invested in Evergrande real estate, not stocks. Lots of workers in the US are at least invested in the stock market via their 401k/IRA, but the same isn't true of Chinese workers.
Also worth reiterating that most US stocks aren't doing great. The top 10 by market cap keep dragging the indexes into growth, but success is heavily biased towards the monster caps.
[OP] pingou | 6 hours ago
levanlevi | 7 hours ago
wasfgwp | 7 hours ago
jonkoops | 10 hours ago
b3orn | 10 hours ago
nimchimpsky | 10 hours ago
Foobar8568 | 9 hours ago
eckelhesten | 9 hours ago
Tade0 | 9 hours ago
There were rumours about China grabbing hold of one of ASML's machines, but with no additional information on this it's safe to assume they're still hammering out 7nm chips using DUV at piss poor yields.
wasfgwp | 7 hours ago
amluto | 4 hours ago
altern8 | 10 hours ago
modo_mario | 9 hours ago
shimman | 6 hours ago
Ampersander | 10 hours ago
dadoum | 9 hours ago
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bgnn | 9 hours ago
On top of this, once European giants like NXP (formerly Philips semiconductors), Infineon (formerly Siemens semiconductors), and ST are actively reducing their footprint in Europe and moving to India or SE Asia.
In short: No, EU has no future in those markets as designer or producer of chips.
FLeXMurphy | an hour ago
jdiez17 | 48 minutes ago
dachworker | 8 hours ago
You can see it a lot in AI, right now. AI4industry is not where the gains are right now. We should be competing on training foundational models. Once the foundational models from US/China are strong enough, they will do AI4industry and we wouldn't have any edge on them anyway because their tech is more vertically integrated and they have better insight in how AI works under the hood.
larksimian | 8 hours ago
The long-term idea that the we have to compete claim is based on is like AGI and it's gonna really care what Elon tells it to do. This is a dumb idea regardless of how it fails.
AI models are seeming the ultimate in fungible commodities at this point, why spend on R&D?
Tade0 | 9 hours ago
Difference between Europe and the others is that it doesn't brag nearly as much.
dmix | 9 hours ago
I don’t think the goal there was to sit around praising past accomplishments. You always have to keep building.
jonkoops | 7 hours ago
tigershark | 6 hours ago
jonkoops | 5 hours ago
amluto | 4 hours ago
CXMT is making truly impressive inroads on what is currently a very Large addressable market using DUV.
wasfgwp | 7 hours ago
In relative terms there is no innovation happening outside of that and some other smaller companies providing highly specialized components that are a part of the supply chain.
There isn’t just much if anything to brag about. ASML is great but it’s effectively a monopoly (for the time being) due to a large extent some correct historical choices.
yearesadpeople | 9 hours ago
cloudie78 | 9 hours ago
lelanthran | 9 hours ago
Aren't they the only ones able to supply the chip-making machines?
wasfgwp | 7 hours ago
It’s a bit like Novo Nordisk, they had a huge win and then just focused on making as much money while it lasted while more innovative companies ate up their market.
Steve16384 | 8 hours ago
FLeXMurphy | an hour ago
mrtksn | 8 hours ago
Edit: changed China with Asia to distance the comment from Taiwan-China based politics.
norman784 | 8 hours ago
mrtksn | 7 hours ago
zer00eyz | 8 hours ago
Did you mean Taiwan? Because depending on who you ask that is, or is not china.
The Chinese have been cut off from EU tooling for a while now. And their attempts to build out their own lithography setups have been a failure. Their 7nm process is, by all measures, not delivering the yields that one would need to make it really successful.
mrtksn | 7 hours ago
pmxi | 6 hours ago
mrtksn | 5 hours ago
wasfgwp | 7 hours ago
And you know.. the actual design for plenty of these chips. By that definition Apple is also an Asian company..
> with EU tooling
That is only a (vital) part of the supply chain, there are plenty of other components.
mrtksn | 7 hours ago
WhyNotHugo | 7 hours ago
cluckindan | 10 hours ago
feverzsj | 10 hours ago
grumbelbart2 | 10 hours ago
feverzsj | 10 hours ago
adrian_b | 8 hours ago
In China they already make integrated circuits with a finer pitch than at TSMC or Intel before the transition to EUV.
This is achieved by multiple exposures, which increase the fabrication cost, but with the current prices they still have very healthy profits.
kmjmbk | 8 hours ago
wasfgwp | 7 hours ago
blitzar | 10 hours ago
how much more do they need to ship to satisfy you?
kubb | 9 hours ago
blitzar | 9 hours ago
fooker | 10 hours ago
Of course CXMT, Micron, and family will still be profitable, but maybe not 'surge 470% from IPO' profitable.
yieldcrv | 10 hours ago
Hyperscalers are screwed, data center mania couldn’t even be completed during this massive spending spree, all while the people seemingly sitting on the sidelines are working on getting these things baked into the OS and chipsets in a way consumers wouldn’t notice
Dibby053 | 10 hours ago
oblio | 9 hours ago
Their posterior. Or worse, their interest in going to the moon (HODL style, not Artemis style).
ImprobableTruth | 10 hours ago
raincole | 10 hours ago
It's like people saying mobile chips are going to be better than PC chips... until they realize PC can be made of mobile chips too if that comes true.
fooker | 7 hours ago
This used to be true for the first several decades of microprocessors, and stopped being true in the early 2000s.
xyzsparetimexyz | 10 hours ago
yieldcrv | 10 hours ago
Some groups are baking models into silicone, Deepmind has an example, it gets 18,000 tokens/sec on Llama 3.1, not sure about parameter size
intrasight | 9 hours ago
fooker | 7 hours ago
While some other groups are baking silicone into models :)
yieldcrv | 2 hours ago
but yes misplaced e
londons_explore | 10 hours ago
Standard Def TV was plenty for 50 years. But when more was on offer, everyone went for it, and now you can't even buy a 480p TV.
t-sauer | 9 hours ago
phoghed | 9 hours ago
lelanthran | 9 hours ago
And when (not if) we get to the 4k (or 8k) equivalent of LLMs, they'll just be baked into hardware and we'll have near instant responses while running locally.
There is no future where OpenAI, Anthropic, etc survive with their current business model; at some point we will hit a point where training a new model is done only every 5 years or so, and in that scenario we aren't going to be running models of pricey server GPUs with latencies measured in seconds and full responses measured in minutes.
We'll be running locally with sub-millisecond latencies and responses measured in milliseconds. There is no way for any big company to compete with the current business plan of selling inference or subscriptions.
seb1204 | 7 hours ago
CamelCaseName | 9 hours ago
2K, 4K, and 8K+ TVs have been around forever, and although 4K has become the norm, it's widely accepted that there isn't much benefit for most people above 1080p
oblio | 9 hours ago
brianwawok | 8 hours ago
The 1080p thing is true in the age of 40” TVs but not so much now, think Costco has a 95” TV if not 100”.
phatfish | 6 hours ago
Personally I think 4k (with HDR) is good enough for consumer use, so agree with the parent theoretically just not quantitatively.
It did take around 20 years from DVD to 4k Bluray though.
StilesCrisis | 8 hours ago
broeng | 8 hours ago
StilesCrisis | 8 hours ago
HelloMcFly | 7 hours ago
Is it? By whom? For larger TVs, closer distance, or a combination of the two, there absolutely is value from 4k. https://i.rtings.com/images/optimal-viewing-distance-televis...
Though I'm unlikely to ever upgrade from 1440p on my computer, personally.
t-3 | 5 hours ago
sureglymop | 9 hours ago
In a way it is actually the same thing that makes us accept AI as working in the first place. It only needs to be good enough for human perception. The same is probably true for compute.
oblio | 9 hours ago
Plus there is a chance the actual scaling that matters is beyond our reach. Think instead of TB models, PB or ZB models. We don't even have that kind of information. Humanity in its entire history hasn't generated 1ZB of information.
xyzsparetimexyz | 7 hours ago
On a task that corresponds to the benchmarks, yes absolutely.
overfeed | 3 hours ago
The very definition of diminishing returns.
lelanthran | 9 hours ago
And yet when we hit 4k, that's were people just stopped buying higher res. 8K is still useful, but only when the screen is so large that it doesn't fit in the room :-/
bogdan | 9 hours ago
flohofwoe | 8 hours ago
esterna | 9 hours ago
If we are talking about all knowledge, then I agree that the compression ratio is very impressive already.
NaiveBayesian | 9 hours ago
Hopefully, future models can be trained to be even more aware of external knowledge, accessible through web search / RAG / whatever it will be then, and might not need to internalize much knowledge at all.
bbatha | 7 hours ago
Then you need longer contexts, which is proving to a much more stubborn problem than general knowledge compression.
anon373839 | 9 hours ago
There must be a limit, I agree, but there have been no signs of approaching it yet. The most recent cohort of small models have shown the biggest leap in capability so far.
lelanthran | 9 hours ago
Sure, it might be very near using the current approach, but... it might also be might be very far off because we are using the wrong approach.
I mean, look at the max amount of intelligence you can get out of a human brain powered by two bananas...
leoc | 8 hours ago
xscott | 9 hours ago
See Karpathy's "Cognitive Core" idea. (I don't have a good link)
t-3 | 6 hours ago
petesergeant | 8 hours ago
Maybe? Human science history is absolutely littered with examples of things that were “constrained” by a fundamental law … until they weren’t, because we’d misunderstood or misapplied the law.
odyssey7 | 8 hours ago
LLMs haven’t been on the scene for very long. There’s still lots of room for efficiency discoveries. Plus, I keep hearing quantum is going to be a big deal in the next few years.
_glass | 8 hours ago
EarthMephit | 8 hours ago
https://github.com/JustVugg/colibri
kcb | 6 hours ago
bebe8393jrir | 8 hours ago
Dogs are very smart!
fooker | 7 hours ago
xyzsparetimexyz | 4 hours ago
fooker | 4 hours ago
The question then is, how much memorization is really needed for intelligence if you can query structured information?
dist-epoch | 10 hours ago
clbrmbr | 10 hours ago
Indeed it seems quite possible we are one architecture breakthrough away from existing chip stock driving us all the way to ASI.
Nobody has done AFAIK the information theory to prove it’s not possible.
greenavocado | 9 hours ago
whazor | 9 hours ago
tornikeo | 9 hours ago
Also, you will be able to play with much more competent models locally. They will still feel like children compared to the adults living in the SoTA region.
hahahaa | 8 hours ago
leoc | 8 hours ago
petra | 6 hours ago
-HBM has a lot of room to grow(bandwidth/power/density). And an HBM memory takes 3x the amount of wafers of regular DRAM.
-HBM + better DRAM designs could increase random memory access speed by alot. I've seen research talking about 7x.
At what point it makes sense that half of consumer GPUs and most of the server GPU/CPUs start using HBM?
empath75 | 4 hours ago
yogthos | 2 hours ago
cco | an hour ago
[1]whether it is 10x in size, or maybe running 10x the models to have things like judges etc.
shevy-java | 10 hours ago
mosura | 10 hours ago
mschuster91 | 10 hours ago
The problem is, shareholders have bled Western companies dry in the chase for returns on investments. There is no money left in the companies to retool them to be competitive with China.
Meanwhile, the CCP just pours dollars into their companies.
Unfortunately, there is no punishment in Western societies if you run a company into the ground as long as you pay your debts on the way out.
raizer88 | 10 hours ago
Schlagbohrer | 10 hours ago
Mainan_Tagonist | 9 hours ago
But what about SpaceX, Blue Origin... there are also counter examples that show it is possible for investors to wait out the big profits.
yuraoak | 7 hours ago
fwip | 7 hours ago
shimman | 6 hours ago
What's the point of this? Honestly?
expedition32 | 6 hours ago
bildung | 9 hours ago
This is core reason why the German industry became so irrelevant in the last 2 decades: The rail infrastructure became pseudo privatized and now is in shambles (IIRC only about 60% of trains arrive on time). The PV industry was axed by the conservatives about 15 years ago and now is completely dominated by China. Even now, as the other EU countries demand strategic investments - and again the German conservatives say this ought to happen without any new debt. "We can only spend what we have", to quote Merz. Imagine China saying this about chip production, or even Sam Altman about compute hardware...
brabel | 10 hours ago
So others did spend energy on becoming better and now you see a different picture when you look at the world.
dist-epoch | 10 hours ago
UK has been trying to get approvals for a new runway at Heathrow airport for over 20 years !!! now.
HighGoldstein | 9 hours ago
skocznymroczny | 9 hours ago
mapt | 8 hours ago
thephyber | 7 hours ago
Chinese structural advantages: monetary policy, lower cost of living, better infrastructure (electrical and transportation are all new within the last 20 years), lower cost of {concrete, factory machinery, metals, electrical} due to economies of scale.
Chinese EV manufacturers advantages: they don't sell ICE cars, so they don't have any legacy customers, factories to retool, or brand migration issues. And they mostly stole their technology from hiring Tesla factory workers to moonlight for them and share the design, technology, tooling, and RE the Tesla finished product.
Major Western legacy car company disadvantages: Ford, Toyota, Volkswagen, etc... all have significant reasons why they can't or won't make the super risky attempt to go all-EV. They all have $10s of billions in debt they are still paying off for their current capital improvements. Those debts assume they contribute selling ICE because EVs last longer so they would sell fewer units per year. It's simply less risk to avoid making any EVs and pay politicians to protect their businesses than to try to compete with 10 year old Chinese phone-companies-turned-EV companies. On top of that, the worldwide demand for EVs is only about the volume of the single most popular model of Toyota. They would have to go into massive debt on a giant risk that consumers will want more EVs (and that the EVs they design/build will sell better than the current ICE cars they have meticulously crafted for 50-100 years).
overfeed | 2 hours ago
Did they successfully steal Tesla's low-cost EV plans too? Using the traditional definition of "steal" (depriving the owner of their property.) The argument that all China is good for is stealing falls apart[1] the second Chinese products become superior (see battery chemistry).
Perhaps Tesla should pay Chinese EV designers and PMs to moonlight for them to shorten their model development cycles.
Domestic Chinese EV competition is fierce, if one can survive or thrive in that boiler, dealing with VW, Ford, or even Tesla is a cake-walk.
1. Nevermind the growing body of fundamental research papers published. An area the US is turning it's back on because some people are gassing themselves up on they idea they are intrinsically, and immutably great/superior, therefore there is no cost to wrecking stuff to "own the libs"
blitzar | 10 hours ago
amluto | 4 hours ago
Right now, the US leads China in compute-heavy R&D because the US has access to more compute, and that compute has two components that China has limited ability to produce domestically: the GPUs themselves and the DRAM. A decent fraction of the balance of the plant is already produced in China.
If the US refuses to buy Chinese tech, then we may find ourselves paying more for compute than Chinese labs (DRAM first, but Huawei really really wants to catch up with the combined forces of TSMC, Nvidia and AMD) and falling behind on access to compute at acceptable prices.
If I were setting US policy, I would be trying to get the US-friendly companies to increase production and trying to encourage domestic production so that the US-friendly world can stay ahead. Getting held back by a DRAM cartel that wants to juice profits at the expense of output is not good for the US.
overfeed | 3 hours ago
That's what the CHIPS Act was supposed to do, but it got neutered for partisan political reasons. The CHIP Act was already about a decade too late. US policy is inconsistent across administrations, and the beneficial moves usually made very late in the game, around the time second- and third-order effects of the bad decisions become unbearable.
polski-g | an hour ago
No way he's letting Chinese chips in.
cubefox | 9 hours ago
Is this accurate? It looks like they are no longer rising, at least for DDR5 memory:
https://de.pcpartpicker.com/trends/price/memory/
Most of the price increase did occur in Q4 2025 and most prices are fairly stable since then. Maybe this is different for LPDDR, GDDR, or HBM, but I would like to see evidence for that.
Tepix | 9 hours ago
cubefox | 6 hours ago
fittingopposite | 2 hours ago
hn_submit | 18 minutes ago
Ergo, the Chinese will take this sector too without so much of a whimper from Europe.
In a couple of years the Chinese will own 25% of the DRAM market and make bumper profits akin to Big Tech. Europe's response will be to levy import tariffs to at least siphon off some money from it.
pojzon | 14 minutes ago
Noone votes for these ppl and stupid decisions they make destroy everyones lifes.