The real problem, in my opinion, is that we have chosen (esp for Trump) to NOT recognize that giving the power to pardon does NOT insulate from being prosecuted for corrupt pardons. The current money for pardon bribery pipeline is an appalling abdication. Of power by the Legislative and Judicial branches.
They didn’t count on all politicians on one side being complacent and complicit.
They never imagined a situation where a president would actually sell pardons.
I mean he would be immediately removed from office if he did something like that, right?
They never imagined this level of corruption and brokenness.
I know right. In some ways it seems like colonial Americans revolted over less. Currently it seems like with have taxation without representation but with extra steps. There’s a bunch of data showing how congress doesn’t actually represent Americans interest.
They never imagined having a supreme court, afaik, and they probably never imagined all the existing relevant judges being absolutely complicit in the destruction of the rule of law
Or, they were counting on it? Federal level corruption was already a problem by the 1790s (Blount Scandal, XYZ Affair). States were no better (Yazoo Land Fraud). That's just off the top of my head and just the ones that were exposed nationally.
They also didn't envision the entire population being active members of the electorate, and thus did not consider the public's collective reasoning skills.
But the founders never anticipated nor intended “blanket” pardons for crimes yet uncovered or pardons for naked acts of willful criminality or public theft. That would give presidents absolute power to ignore their oath or the other branches. We have to stop pretending Trump can just wash the sins of his administration away at the end of his term. A Dem admin needs to prosecute for clear crimes and let the Supreme Court make clear, against historical precedent, whether presidents have absolute power in that regard.
Agreed. Trump is a cunt who abuses the shit out of this.
But it should never have been a thing at any level. It’s a subtle agreement that the judicial system is corrupt and it attempts to fix that by being extremely unfair toward the rich and powerful. Governors, justices, presidents, small town officials who get their friends out of trouble. That all needs to go.
I just think the pardon power needs rails on it. That was the true crime, not realizing that something so powerful could be abused.
First of all, make it explicit that using the pardon in exchange for financial benefit for the president, their family. or their administration, would be a felony.
Second, remove the ability of the president to grant pardons to himself, his family, or his administration.
The founders put the amendment process into the Constitution because they knew they couldn't predict all of the changes that would happen in the world in the future. What they really couldn't predict was a political and media landscape so thoroughly gamified and polarized that any sort of compromise or collaboration would become impossible and energizing the most extremist elements of a political party would become the winning strategy.
The pardon power is in hindsight pretty stupid, but it may have been reasonable to assume at the time that any president abusing it to 1% the degree Trump does would quickly become unpopular and be impeached.
They also believed in the concept of honor. I'm sure they weren't all honorable, but believing that it was something good and that it was something to at least aspire to changes how someone views the world. Then there is trump and his entire administration and the vast majority of the Republican Party. Most of whom couldn't even define the word.
I think they did expect it, because they expected the interests of the wealthy to be different from the interests of the voters. That's why they made it so easy to control the choices put before the public. Has it occurred to you that voting for the lesser evil is still voting against your own interests? Yes, voting for the greater evil is even more against your interests, but they are all bad choices in the end.
I'm not really seeing how Trump is any different from a warlord or dictator. And it will be very interesting to see how much of what Trump did will be rolled back should the Democrats ever regain power. My guess is some combination of Democrats don't regain power, and they don't roll anything significant back. So now it's just warlords and dictators until we see the end of fascism in the United States. Voting for your interests is never entering into that because that option will never be given. The money being spent to assure that is only going up until it's over.
Let's be fair to the founders. We were going off their script when we let the uneducated masses vote. I'm not saying I'm against mass suffrage, but we can't blame it on them. If we told them that the uneducated masses elected a moronic demagogue and he abused his power they'd be like "told ya."
No, because they thought that president should have the power to pardon people like Snowden who by the rule of law should be punished but morally did a good thing.
intronert | 19 hours ago
The real problem, in my opinion, is that we have chosen (esp for Trump) to NOT recognize that giving the power to pardon does NOT insulate from being prosecuted for corrupt pardons. The current money for pardon bribery pipeline is an appalling abdication. Of power by the Legislative and Judicial branches.
giolort | 19 hours ago
Something, something papal indulgences,
edwardothegreatest | 19 hours ago
They didn’t anticipate the American public being this stupid.
Emrys7777 | 16 hours ago
They didn’t count on all politicians on one side being complacent and complicit.
They never imagined a situation where a president would actually sell pardons.
I mean he would be immediately removed from office if he did something like that, right?
They never imagined this level of corruption and brokenness.
clobbersaurus | 7 hours ago
I know right. In some ways it seems like colonial Americans revolted over less. Currently it seems like with have taxation without representation but with extra steps. There’s a bunch of data showing how congress doesn’t actually represent Americans interest.
Available_Usual_9731 | 7 hours ago
They never imagined having a supreme court, afaik, and they probably never imagined all the existing relevant judges being absolutely complicit in the destruction of the rule of law
Fuck the Federalist Society
cataath | 18 hours ago
Or, they were counting on it? Federal level corruption was already a problem by the 1790s (Blount Scandal, XYZ Affair). States were no better (Yazoo Land Fraud). That's just off the top of my head and just the ones that were exposed nationally.
JMurdock77 | 17 hours ago
They didn’t envision the American public voting — only white, male, land-owning gentry like themselves.
Head_Bread_3431 | 18 hours ago
We have the first amendment because they knew we’d be stupid. People are stupid in every generation and they knew that then just as we know now
dseibel | 14 hours ago
They also didn't envision the entire population being active members of the electorate, and thus did not consider the public's collective reasoning skills.
adario7 | 4 hours ago
Are you saying it can’t be any stupider? Challenge accepted.
jdb888 | 19 hours ago
Not to mention slavery. Not to mention the Senate.
Superadhman | 19 hours ago
But the founders never anticipated nor intended “blanket” pardons for crimes yet uncovered or pardons for naked acts of willful criminality or public theft. That would give presidents absolute power to ignore their oath or the other branches. We have to stop pretending Trump can just wash the sins of his administration away at the end of his term. A Dem admin needs to prosecute for clear crimes and let the Supreme Court make clear, against historical precedent, whether presidents have absolute power in that regard.
nikatnight | 19 hours ago
Agreed. Trump is a cunt who abuses the shit out of this.
But it should never have been a thing at any level. It’s a subtle agreement that the judicial system is corrupt and it attempts to fix that by being extremely unfair toward the rich and powerful. Governors, justices, presidents, small town officials who get their friends out of trouble. That all needs to go.
HaiKarate | 19 hours ago
I just think the pardon power needs rails on it. That was the true crime, not realizing that something so powerful could be abused.
First of all, make it explicit that using the pardon in exchange for financial benefit for the president, their family. or their administration, would be a felony.
Second, remove the ability of the president to grant pardons to himself, his family, or his administration.
Mooshtonk | 18 hours ago
They assumed we would vote men of high moral compass to the highest office in the land. We didn’t do that.
KimonoThief | 16 hours ago
The founders put the amendment process into the Constitution because they knew they couldn't predict all of the changes that would happen in the world in the future. What they really couldn't predict was a political and media landscape so thoroughly gamified and polarized that any sort of compromise or collaboration would become impossible and energizing the most extremist elements of a political party would become the winning strategy.
The pardon power is in hindsight pretty stupid, but it may have been reasonable to assume at the time that any president abusing it to 1% the degree Trump does would quickly become unpopular and be impeached.
FIicker7 | 17 hours ago
Not really. The founding fathers never expected so many people to vote against their own interests
FanDry5374 | 15 hours ago
They also believed in the concept of honor. I'm sure they weren't all honorable, but believing that it was something good and that it was something to at least aspire to changes how someone views the world. Then there is trump and his entire administration and the vast majority of the Republican Party. Most of whom couldn't even define the word.
jawdirk | 16 hours ago
I think they did expect it, because they expected the interests of the wealthy to be different from the interests of the voters. That's why they made it so easy to control the choices put before the public. Has it occurred to you that voting for the lesser evil is still voting against your own interests? Yes, voting for the greater evil is even more against your interests, but they are all bad choices in the end.
FIicker7 | 15 hours ago
Your alternatives for Democracy is warlords or dictators
jawdirk | 14 hours ago
I'm not really seeing how Trump is any different from a warlord or dictator. And it will be very interesting to see how much of what Trump did will be rolled back should the Democrats ever regain power. My guess is some combination of Democrats don't regain power, and they don't roll anything significant back. So now it's just warlords and dictators until we see the end of fascism in the United States. Voting for your interests is never entering into that because that option will never be given. The money being spent to assure that is only going up until it's over.
jackparadise1 | 19 hours ago
Isn’t a pardon an admission of guilt?
tantalor | 19 hours ago
The founders gave the people the ability to remove the president through a vote of impeachment.
jawdirk | 16 hours ago
It works fine until the government is full of criminals and there are no checks and balances, and there's no representation of ordinary people.
DataCassette | 17 hours ago
Let's be fair to the founders. We were going off their script when we let the uneducated masses vote. I'm not saying I'm against mass suffrage, but we can't blame it on them. If we told them that the uneducated masses elected a moronic demagogue and he abused his power they'd be like "told ya."
obzovica | 19 hours ago
No, because they thought that president should have the power to pardon people like Snowden who by the rule of law should be punished but morally did a good thing.
thereverendpuck | 7 hours ago
No they didn’t.
They misjudged the notion that someone wouldn’t sell them off like it was a fire sale.
Alone_Bicycle_600 | 3 hours ago
they never entertained the thought of selling out to the highest bidders.
Crazy_names | 15 hours ago
Right? Can yiu imagine blanket pardons for any crimes that may have been committed over a dozens years.
Top_Reach4752 | 18 hours ago
Just ignore pardons . Fuck it