there is a related problem (inspired by an interview questions from ITA software, a part of Google now) that asks to find the smallest positive integer that cannot be expressed using a digit K (in [2,9]) N times in an expression that involves the four basic arithmetic operations and the parentheses: +, -, *, /, (, and ).
to make the problem more interesting, the list of operations can be extended to include exponentiation and concatenation.
for example, using the four basic operations for N=4, and K in [2,9], we get:
7 cannot be computed in 4 2s;
11 cannot be computed in 4 3s;
10 cannot be computed in 4 4s;
8 cannot be computed in 4 5s;
9 cannot be computed in 4 6s;
4 cannot be computed in 4 7s;
5 cannot be computed in 4 8s;
4 cannot be computed in 4 9s;
i know everyone plays with their own rules, but from my perspective, a square root spends a 2 - it's not an operator like + or ! . there's an implicit "2" since you could also take the cube root or fourth root
Multiplication is not the same as repeated addition, which you can observe as soon as you try the two different operations on fractions or negative numbers. For example, you can't add a number to itself 1/3 times, but you can certainly scale a number by 1/3.
Can you not? 9+(9(1/3)) [adding nine to itself a third of a time] is nine plus one third of nine {or nine divided by three} which is one of the three in three times three that equals nine which is three therefore 9+(9(1/3))=11 because 9+3=11
By dividing by 3 you are introducing a scaler into the operation.
Multiplication also flips signs (direction). That's why a negative * negative = positive, whereas a negative + negative = negative. The addition operator does not flip direction.
Multiplication is not generally the same as multiple addition operations. However, it has the same result for positive whole numbers.
I am not writing this to flippant. I'm a 40-something year old engineer and I litterally thought the same thing until a year ago-ish. I was trying to build a function (I can't recall what exactly) for a project and I said, well instead of multiplying these terms (which wasn't efficient for what I was doing or something), I'll just cycle through and add the terms X-number of times. ChatGPT said "uh, no, that's not the same thing," to which I said NFW and proceeded down a deep rabbit hole on the difference. I'm glad I did because I also now have a much better intuition for imaginary numbers, which I was severely lacking before.
Multiplication is the generalization of repeated addition. Repeated addition can be generalized to fractional values.
In the integers, it is the same thing, with a rule for negative times.
In the rational numbers, you can generalize to adding a number to itself a rational number of times. Adding a/b to itself p/q times is defined as adding a to itself p times, with a divisor that is adding b to itself q times.
So adding the rational 5 (5/1) with itself 2_and-1/3 (4/3) times just means (5+5+5+5) / (1 + 1 + 1) = 20/3, a rational that we can also write as 6
-and-2/3. Only addition of integers is used.
Which is the same as rational multiplication (a/b)(p/q) = (ap)/(b*q).
But it's true that you can't say that rational multiplication is the same as _integer_ repeated addition.
Multiplication is adding numbers to themselves. Exponentiation is multiplying numbers by themselves. Ditto division/taking roots. Squaring a number is just the instance of exponentiation that happens to have two operands. If taking a square root is an inherent use of a two, then dividing a number by another number should also be a use of a two, because there are two operands.
Because it's just wrong. hahajk said that taking the 2nd root spends a 2, not that "roots are invalid". (FWIW, I'm not necessarily endorsing the view that the square root symbol implicitly spends a 2, I'm just saying that the counterarguments given are logically wrong ... actually more like semantically wrong.)
The comment below by drfloyd51 is similarly wrong ... hahajk didn't say anything about "giving exceptions to powers in the rules".
And the comment by speglt is also wrong:
> If taking a square root is an inherent use of a two, then dividing a number by another number should also be a use of a two, because there are two operands.
The number of operands isn't relevant; the degree of the root is.
And from SideQuark we get
> One could even claim division is raising to the -1 power, thereby disqualifying it in exactly the same manner you disqualify sqrt.
But hahajk said nothing about anything being disqualified. (Not to mention that division is not raising to the -1 power ... raising what? n/d = n * d^-1, but this is completely irrelevant to hahajk's argument.)
Yes, taking the nth root is an operator. Taking the SQUARE root is this operator with the operand 2, which is usually graphically omited. I totally agree with the top comment: it's burning one of the 2's.
Alternatively, one can claim sqrt is a single symbol, and there are extensions requiring a digit. Log, ln, also have hidden bases, but they’re also valid symbols. Cos/sin may be in radians or degrees, both in common use, and no real place to denote it.
One could even claim division is raising to the -1 power, thereby disqualifying it in exactly the same manner you disqualify sqrt. I’ve never seen sqrt with a 2 index; power -1 is seen quite often for division.
It’s true cheating, but if you assume the Peano axioms, you can write any integer with one zero without having to resort to complex functions such as √. For example (if I didn’t miscount the S-es or parentheses),
You don't even need zero in that case, you can use the fact that 2 - 2 = 0 to use the four 2s:
S(S(S(S(S(S(S(2+2-2+2)))))))) = 7
...which is essentially the same as Dirac's general solution (which also derives a "successor operator" akin to S that doesn't spend any numeric literals).
EDIT: I realize that this was already posted in a comment by
shoo several hours ago.
gnabgib | 17 hours ago
Arnt | 16 hours ago
And JFYI since December is near: https://rant.gulbrandsen.priv.no/hack/advent-calendar-for-ne...
teo_zero | 16 hours ago
7 = ⌈ 2.2² + 2 ⌉
AnimalMuppet | 15 hours ago
Jtsummers | 15 hours ago
blueblock | 15 hours ago
nostrademons | 14 hours ago
jtari3333 | 7 hours ago
anthk | 12 hours ago
adas0693 | 16 hours ago
to make the problem more interesting, the list of operations can be extended to include exponentiation and concatenation.
for example, using the four basic operations for N=4, and K in [2,9], we get:
7 cannot be computed in 4 2s; 11 cannot be computed in 4 3s; 10 cannot be computed in 4 4s; 8 cannot be computed in 4 5s; 9 cannot be computed in 4 6s; 4 cannot be computed in 4 7s; 5 cannot be computed in 4 8s; 4 cannot be computed in 4 9s;
genter | 15 hours ago
argee | 14 hours ago
twoodfin | 2 hours ago
dooglius | 11 hours ago
catlifeonmars | 14 hours ago
hahajk | 14 hours ago
JumpCrisscross | 13 hours ago
Squaring is to multiplication as is the latter to addition. If roots are invalid then so should be multiplications.
danparsonson | 13 hours ago
drfloyd51 | 12 hours ago
2x3= 2+2+2 AxB= A+A B times.
Raising to a power is repeated multiplication.
2^3= 2x2x2 A^B = AxA B times
Roots are the inverse of powers
Division is the inverse of multiplications.
Given this… the OC’s comment about giving exceptions to powers in the rules is nonsense because they are still operations.
mojomark | 12 hours ago
Multiplication is a scaling operation.
goodmythical | 10 hours ago
alpaca128 | 5 hours ago
red369 | 2 hours ago
I like it when people who are clearly smart do things like this! Makes me feel better.
Reminds me of this story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5663709
srean | 2 hours ago
mojomark | an hour ago
Multiplication also flips signs (direction). That's why a negative * negative = positive, whereas a negative + negative = negative. The addition operator does not flip direction.
Multiplication is not generally the same as multiple addition operations. However, it has the same result for positive whole numbers.
I am not writing this to flippant. I'm a 40-something year old engineer and I litterally thought the same thing until a year ago-ish. I was trying to build a function (I can't recall what exactly) for a project and I said, well instead of multiplying these terms (which wasn't efficient for what I was doing or something), I'll just cycle through and add the terms X-number of times. ChatGPT said "uh, no, that's not the same thing," to which I said NFW and proceeded down a deep rabbit hole on the difference. I'm glad I did because I also now have a much better intuition for imaginary numbers, which I was severely lacking before.
reichstein | 5 hours ago
In the integers, it is the same thing, with a rule for negative times.
In the rational numbers, you can generalize to adding a number to itself a rational number of times. Adding a/b to itself p/q times is defined as adding a to itself p times, with a divisor that is adding b to itself q times.
So adding the rational 5 (5/1) with itself 2_and-1/3 (4/3) times just means (5+5+5+5) / (1 + 1 + 1) = 20/3, a rational that we can also write as 6 -and-2/3. Only addition of integers is used.
Which is the same as rational multiplication (a/b)(p/q) = (ap)/(b*q).
But it's true that you can't say that rational multiplication is the same as _integer_ repeated addition.
spieglt | 12 hours ago
jibalt | 11 hours ago
The comment below by drfloyd51 is similarly wrong ... hahajk didn't say anything about "giving exceptions to powers in the rules".
And the comment by speglt is also wrong:
> If taking a square root is an inherent use of a two, then dividing a number by another number should also be a use of a two, because there are two operands.
The number of operands isn't relevant; the degree of the root is.
And from SideQuark we get
> One could even claim division is raising to the -1 power, thereby disqualifying it in exactly the same manner you disqualify sqrt.
But hahajk said nothing about anything being disqualified. (Not to mention that division is not raising to the -1 power ... raising what? n/d = n * d^-1, but this is completely irrelevant to hahajk's argument.)
penteract | 12 hours ago
jolmg | 8 hours ago
as halving is to addition.
penteract | 8 hours ago
SamBam | 12 hours ago
If we agree that 2^2 uses two twos (and, indeed, that 2^3 isn't valid, because it uses a 3), then what's the equivalent of a square root?
Of course to my simple math brain, a square root is ^1/2, which includes the digit 1. But I agree there is someone 2-ish about the square root.
direwolf20 | 10 hours ago
schiffern | 4 hours ago
It would be like if we had a stylistic convention that you can drop the second number in an addition and it becomes 1. So "6 +" means "6 + 1."
Now I can trivially make any number, but I'm just 'exploiting' a convenience feature in the notation:
0 = 2 + 2 - 2 - 2
1 = 2 + 2 - 2 - 2 +
2 = 2 + 2 - 2 - 2 + +
Etc
Biganon | 3 hours ago
SideQuark | 13 hours ago
One could even claim division is raising to the -1 power, thereby disqualifying it in exactly the same manner you disqualify sqrt. I’ve never seen sqrt with a 2 index; power -1 is seen quite often for division.
Go figure….
jjmarr | 11 hours ago
3=(sin(arctan(sin(arctan(sin(arctan(2))))))^−2 − (2)^−2
schiffern | 5 hours ago
shiandow | 3 hours ago
Though it really depends which definitions you find more fundamental.
Still, exp and log seem like good choices.
ta2345fa59be | 7 hours ago
bajard | 8 hours ago
shoo | 7 hours ago
Encode 0 as 2 + 2 - 2 - 2 then apply S a times to that 0.
Only depends upon natural numbers & Peano stuff, no need for construction of rationals, irrationals, logarithms, etc.
allywilson | 7 hours ago
Someone | 2 hours ago
rav | 2 hours ago
EDIT: I realize that this was already posted in a comment by shoo several hours ago.
vessenes | 2 hours ago