This is great news. I've long felt markdown support was a missed opportunity for LibreOffice. There are great options out there, and with AI it's not even terrible to roll-your-own, but I already have LibreOffice anyway and being able to use that instead of reaching for a different tool would be killer. Might be a little while until this makes it into distro packages, but if anyone has tried it I'd love to hear how it compares to the other options.
For me, being able to open typical .doc files and re-save as .md w/ a reasonable approximation of formatting is _huge_, and I'm very appreciative of it (and I've long argued that an office suite which just offered only what .md can do would meet the needs of the vast majority of users _and_ keep them from making the sorts of abominable documents folks often complain about).
It’s interesting, a lot of use cases have migrated to tools like that, including Apple Notes, Notion, Slack Canvas and, of course, Gmail and Outlook.
I think a lot of people “need” Word the same way they “need” a pickup truck. It feels better to buy it up front than to worry about needing it on short notice and not having it.
There's a lot of missed opportunity for LibreOffice, almost all of it to do with insisting on seeing the world in terms that fit neatly within the paradigm of 90s and early 2000s era office suites.
Back when they were quarreling over the standardization of OOXML, instead of pushing their own proprietary** desktop format, they should have instead been pushing hard for something that could be shared with and opened by anyone who has a Web browser (in other words: "anyone")—something that uses HTML as a container format and can degrade gracefully even if you don't have any kind of office suite installed and the only reader software you have for it is Chrome/Safari/Firefox/Edge. There was no chance of beating Microsoft's incumbency with Office when being libre+gratis was the _only_ distinguishing feature. It required doing something different at a fundamental level. Even Microsoft beat them to getting halfway to the place they should have been when they bought the company that wrote what became Windows Live Writer app (which is now itself open source, though neglected, and still mired in visions of desktop software from the 90s: <https://github.com/OpenLiveWriter/OpenLiveWriter>).
> The LibreOffice project's imprimatur should be to stop existing[…] The editing paradigm perpetuated by the legacy of MS Office is a dead end[…] A standardized "Markdown for the Web" (or AsciiDoc) with native browser support would be a good 80/20 start and would move things out of weird proprietary office formats and towards plain text[…]
> Right now LibreOffice is aligned against this goal as a result of perverse incentives to continue perpetuating the MS Office model of document creation, editing, and (let's face it: email-based) distribution.
Word is a WYSIWYG document editor with built-in version control and annotations. In order to match that feature set with something like Markdown, you'd basically have to reinvent Word in all ways but for file format.
And if you expect Word's current user base to get by with Emacs or Vim or Zed and git, you really are programmer-brained and need to develop more empathy for ordinary people.
Back in the long-ago times, I saw ordinary people fight tooth-and-nail to keep their WordPerfect on DOS instead of switching to Windows and Word, despite it requiring those overlays kept above their keyboard function keys and being non-WYSIWYG. Ordinary people aren't neophiles, nor is Word especially intuitive. They simply want what that app to which they are familiar.
I have been looking for a simple local only wysiwyg alternative to Onenote and there just.. arent any good ones? Joplin is close but everything is now markdown and I hate it, I've gone back to phyiscally writing down notes.
I'm old, these are notes for me only, I don't care that they arent 'web publishing' ready.
There is value in familiar tools for familiar work. Someone typing letters to send to family is not intrinsically going be interested in, or see any benefit from, some paradigm shift to hypermedia-first document creation.
> And if you expect Word's current user base to get by with Emacs or Vim or Zed and git
... who said that? Are they in the room now?
I'm baffled when these kinds of responses show up in these threads—every time I've brought this up. Like, it's pure hallucination. And the readiness to go from what is _my_ very clear call for "empathy for ordinary people" to an explicit suggestion that I might be programmer-brained is inexplicable.
Ordinary people don't want to do any of the things uttered someone who's telling them to stop using Google Docs and to go "download" something called "LibreOffice".
Nitpick, but I love vim (and to a lesser extent emacs) and am not a programmer (sadly). I don't believe you need to be a programmer to use them. Using vim is "just" using your computer. Personal notes, system configuration (dotfiles), anime playlist management (.m3u files mainly), checking the name of a unicode character I don't recognize (vim-characterize), inverting capitalization (select and hit ~) or making large formatting changes to some text (block select visual mode and multi-line editing, macros) to post elsewhere, bulk renaming of files (vidir), writing emails (aerc), vim is my go-to for all that. That's not even getting into vim-inspired separate programs like ranger and qutebrowser.
> Back when they were quarreling over the standardization of OOXML, instead of pushing their own proprietary* desktop format
ODF was developed by a committee and predates OOXML by years and it was standardized by ISO before OOXML was even announced.
That's not pushing their own proprietary format. That's just using the existing ISO standard and not switching to a different, far more complex standard that served little purpose.
Hell even IBM threatened to leave ISO wholesale over Microsoft ramming OOXML through the standards body.
I'm not sure this is quite what you are looking for, though I could be wrong. As far as I can tell they haven't added support for writing Markdown, the added support for importing to and exporting from Markdown.
And potentially get fired for using unauthorised software on a corporate machine. Or find out tha USB storage is disabled (which is better than getting fired).
I am asking about alternatives to LibreOffice for a reason (stated)
Pandoc library and Microsoft Markitdown -- that other helpful comments suggested -- seem like two options that might actually work in my case and I will give them a try. My asking here was fruitful.
Running python and using python libraries is allowed on our work pcs but not running arbitrary software and EXEs with or without an installer. I cannot override company security policy, and cannot simply "talk to" our infosec team and get them to allow me to install stuff. Hope this clarifies.
Based on what others have suggested, I've just tried out pandoc for this, and it's produced really good results in CommonMark from some quite hideous Word documents.
Well LaTeX formulas are not part of standard Markdown, which is a few different Header levels, simple lists, bold, italics, blockquote and... that's about it?
What are peoples' favourite md implementations? Curious as there are different varieties and even more varied opinions. I am building a lightweight project folder managing app supporting markdown and I am between Commonmark and GitHub flavoured markdown and want to gather thoughts.
I know it doesn’t answer your question, but: AsciiDoc. All major forges support it and it has the same features as all the other Markdown flavors combined.
GFM, because HTML in markdown should not be a parse error, and getting twenty different markdown "specs" to all agree on new syntax for bits they are obviously missing (like details, classed scoping, transclusions, etc) is not happening.
Except under GFM, html is explicitly part of the spec[1], not just "it's not a parse error, but that's because it's just text that doesn't fall in any predefined markdown syntax category", and good luck finding a WYSIWYG markdown editor that gets them right. The number of editors that completely break on <details> alone is disheartening.
Markdown is a text markup language, of course. The output does not look like the input (unless you want to read raw text Markdown, in which case LibreOffice works fine).
How would that look in a single-pane, edit-in-place, wysiwyg editor? Where would you type the input, and where and when would it show the output?
Great news. My first thought was that I want to see how this looks. Unfortunately there is not a single screenshot in the announcement. Missed opportunity in my opinion.
I keep wondering how much longer they'll cling to these monsters, office suites as a concept. They make no sense since decades, not just for producing TERRIBLE print documents, but also as awful formats for working with text and any data they might contain.
I see this latest development as an admission that their time is up, but I don't see that same awareness from the people who actually use the software.
So if the people making the software don’t see their time is up and the people using the software don’t see their time is up, who decides their time is up?
kkfx it's right. Office users shoudn't need nothing more complex that WordPad and a simple spreadsheet such as Gnucalc.
Everything else should be either DTP domain, scientific notebooks instead of crappy spreadsheets with parsing bugs (genomics) and Access instead of SQLite3 and any GUI of choice to place forms in a WYSIWYG way making queries against that database.
The need for a functioning digitalised society, because the current one is digitalising slowly, decades behind technological potential, and poorly at that, so it doesn't work; the result is a lethal inefficiency that is making society itself increasingly unmanageable, with a level of social fracture that I fear is irreparable.
Oh, sure, office suites aren't the only cause, nor the main one, but they are a contributing factor. The model of giving a computer to secretarial staff without any training, which is why this software was created in the first place, has now been extended to almost all "office" workers, and well, it's among the causes of our decline.
We haven't worked with sheets of paper, pages, suspended folders (as directories are rendered in file managers on average), and so on for a long time now; it's high time, then, that the modern General Magic, the Office model, stop screwing everyone over. This won't be understood anytime soon, and the result will be a state of affairs even worse than the present.
Excel and Genomics was a recipe for a disaster.
Again, for home/office users, something like Wordpad with small tables,
such as the ones from Ted works for a 99% of the cases.
Everything else should never interact with a crap like Excel. Ever. Use dedicated, scientific journals for it if you are a self-called professional.
Reusing a ledger sheet for serious stuff will just make companies lose billions with faulty research and papers.
Access? Nice toy, but even Sqlite3 as a damn engine can be more powerful and straightforward once you stick any RAD UI, from Lazarus to something small in C#, which is possible in AOT. Heck, even if you have Java, by decoupling the backend you are safe to put even a TCL/Tk GUI, even it if's looks 'horrible' by default, but for serious use, you would love the default "industrial" design. Or just use the Win32 TTK lookalike which would look well on almost any PC.
Ah, yes, reports and the like. Use a damn library to print to PDF, there are zillions. Or, just better: once you get the result in text, just paste the results back to Ted/Writer/Word and then you are free to compose the document in any style you like. Then, well, 'print' to PDF, or PS->PDF.
It might be more complex, yes. But your data won't be mangled in the process. The results would be in a separate text file, outside of any faulty spreadsheet or wannabe database. That output should be pristine and backed up ASAP. As it's text, it's parseable from nearly every machine from 2002. Even more if it's plain ASCII, for sure a thing with science done in English and plain numbers. No localized MSOffice bullshit for formulae, no more numbers parsed as dates, ever.
Oh, this is actually very helpful for me! I have an AI copilot extension for LibreOffice Writer and I need to export the doc to a text file before sending it to the LLM. The problem is that I lose the semantic formatting (eg heading).
I know nothing about libre but in MS Word there's the office api you can use to send MD to an API, there's nothing similar? It's great to be able to read/write directly in MD.
So no tables, footnotes, table of content, math formulas, citations, …
So the better way to create markdown is still to use pandoc and convert your libre office documents into the much more powerful pandoc markdown dialect:
freedomben | a month ago
WillAdams | a month ago
bitwize | a month ago
WillAdams | a month ago
lametti | a month ago
smelendez | a month ago
I think a lot of people “need” Word the same way they “need” a pickup truck. It feels better to buy it up front than to worry about needing it on short notice and not having it.
cxr | a month ago
Back when they were quarreling over the standardization of OOXML, instead of pushing their own proprietary** desktop format, they should have instead been pushing hard for something that could be shared with and opened by anyone who has a Web browser (in other words: "anyone")—something that uses HTML as a container format and can degrade gracefully even if you don't have any kind of office suite installed and the only reader software you have for it is Chrome/Safari/Firefox/Edge. There was no chance of beating Microsoft's incumbency with Office when being libre+gratis was the _only_ distinguishing feature. It required doing something different at a fundamental level. Even Microsoft beat them to getting halfway to the place they should have been when they bought the company that wrote what became Windows Live Writer app (which is now itself open source, though neglected, and still mired in visions of desktop software from the 90s: <https://github.com/OpenLiveWriter/OpenLiveWriter>).
> The LibreOffice project's imprimatur should be to stop existing[…] The editing paradigm perpetuated by the legacy of MS Office is a dead end[…] A standardized "Markdown for the Web" (or AsciiDoc) with native browser support would be a good 80/20 start and would move things out of weird proprietary office formats and towards plain text[…]
> Right now LibreOffice is aligned against this goal as a result of perverse incentives to continue perpetuating the MS Office model of document creation, editing, and (let's face it: email-based) distribution.
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23795918>
bitwize | a month ago
And if you expect Word's current user base to get by with Emacs or Vim or Zed and git, you really are programmer-brained and need to develop more empathy for ordinary people.
twirlip | a month ago
ikr678 | a month ago
I'm old, these are notes for me only, I don't care that they arent 'web publishing' ready.
thunderfork | a month ago
cxr | a month ago
... who said that? Are they in the room now?
I'm baffled when these kinds of responses show up in these threads—every time I've brought this up. Like, it's pure hallucination. And the readiness to go from what is _my_ very clear call for "empathy for ordinary people" to an explicit suggestion that I might be programmer-brained is inexplicable.
Ordinary people don't want to do any of the things uttered someone who's telling them to stop using Google Docs and to go "download" something called "LibreOffice".
opan | a month ago
anthk | a month ago
muterad_murilax | a month ago
OneDeuxTriSeiGo | a month ago
ODF was developed by a committee and predates OOXML by years and it was standardized by ISO before OOXML was even announced.
That's not pushing their own proprietary format. That's just using the existing ISO standard and not switching to a different, far more complex standard that served little purpose.
Hell even IBM threatened to leave ISO wholesale over Microsoft ramming OOXML through the standards body.
mghackerlady | a month ago
Digit-Al | a month ago
albert_e | a month ago
Anything that can run locally instead of uploading potentially sensitive stuff to random websites. Would be handy on work PCs.
dotancohen | a month ago
ckcheng | a month ago
albert_e | a month ago
1718627440 | a month ago
cricalix | a month ago
ThePowerOfFuet | a month ago
timbit42 | a month ago
albert_e | a month ago
I am asking about alternatives to LibreOffice for a reason (stated)
Pandoc library and Microsoft Markitdown -- that other helpful comments suggested -- seem like two options that might actually work in my case and I will give them a try. My asking here was fruitful.
Running python and using python libraries is allowed on our work pcs but not running arbitrary software and EXEs with or without an installer. I cannot override company security policy, and cannot simply "talk to" our infosec team and get them to allow me to install stuff. Hope this clarifies.
KETHERCORTEX | a month ago
LibreOffice also allows to convert documents via command line, so there's one more bonus.
mrw34 | a month ago
layer8 | a month ago
albert_e | a month ago
This might be useful on a personal PC -- licence seems expensive, though I like it being a one time purchase and not monthly subscription.
Will look to do the free trial to evaluate. (Hope we see more such tooling, and also push the likes of Microsoft to add native support)
My main usecase is on work PC though where I wont be able to install additional software or plugins. So was exploring python scripts and the like.
Thanks for the pointer.
daveoc64 | a month ago
ilogik | a month ago
justsomehnguy | a month ago
Almondsetat | a month ago
SoftTalker | a month ago
mieses | a month ago
https://spec.commonmark.org/0.31.2/#loose
SoftTalker | a month ago
mieses | a month ago
SoftTalker | a month ago
abmmgb | a month ago
Diti | a month ago
TheRealPomax | a month ago
masfuerte | a month ago
https://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax#html
TheRealPomax | a month ago
[1] https://github.github.com/gfm/
contravariant | a month ago
black_knight | a month ago
thunderbong | a month ago
Unfortunately, from the article:
> Markdown import and export features.
azangru | a month ago
2pie | a month ago
rippeltippel | a month ago
BoredomIsFun | a month ago
mmooss | a month ago
How would that look in a single-pane, edit-in-place, wysiwyg editor? Where would you type the input, and where and when would it show the output?
hotsauceror | a month ago
chaosharmonic | a month ago
Doesn't seem like that much of a stretch from a UI perspective to do something similar with a Markdown preview.
1718627440 | a month ago
phartenfeller | a month ago
timbit42 | a month ago
kkfx | a month ago
I see this latest development as an admission that their time is up, but I don't see that same awareness from the people who actually use the software.
grosswait | a month ago
anthk | a month ago
kkfx | a month ago
Oh, sure, office suites aren't the only cause, nor the main one, but they are a contributing factor. The model of giving a computer to secretarial staff without any training, which is why this software was created in the first place, has now been extended to almost all "office" workers, and well, it's among the causes of our decline.
We haven't worked with sheets of paper, pages, suspended folders (as directories are rendered in file managers on average), and so on for a long time now; it's high time, then, that the modern General Magic, the Office model, stop screwing everyone over. This won't be understood anytime soon, and the result will be a state of affairs even worse than the present.
anthk | a month ago
Everything else should never interact with a crap like Excel. Ever. Use dedicated, scientific journals for it if you are a self-called professional. Reusing a ledger sheet for serious stuff will just make companies lose billions with faulty research and papers.
Access? Nice toy, but even Sqlite3 as a damn engine can be more powerful and straightforward once you stick any RAD UI, from Lazarus to something small in C#, which is possible in AOT. Heck, even if you have Java, by decoupling the backend you are safe to put even a TCL/Tk GUI, even it if's looks 'horrible' by default, but for serious use, you would love the default "industrial" design. Or just use the Win32 TTK lookalike which would look well on almost any PC.
Ah, yes, reports and the like. Use a damn library to print to PDF, there are zillions. Or, just better: once you get the result in text, just paste the results back to Ted/Writer/Word and then you are free to compose the document in any style you like. Then, well, 'print' to PDF, or PS->PDF.
It might be more complex, yes. But your data won't be mangled in the process. The results would be in a separate text file, outside of any faulty spreadsheet or wannabe database. That output should be pristine and backed up ASAP. As it's text, it's parseable from nearly every machine from 2002. Even more if it's plain ASCII, for sure a thing with science done in English and plain numbers. No localized MSOffice bullshit for formulae, no more numbers parsed as dates, ever.
butz | a month ago
alansaber | a month ago
PhilippGille | a month ago
mmarian | a month ago
Link to the extension for anyone curious: https://extensions.libreoffice.org/en/extensions/show/99471
alansaber | a month ago
aussieguy1234 | a month ago
sourcegrift | a month ago
fsckboy | a month ago
amai | a month ago
amai | a month ago
So no tables, footnotes, table of content, math formulas, citations, …
So the better way to create markdown is still to use pandoc and convert your libre office documents into the much more powerful pandoc markdown dialect:
https://garrettgman.github.io/rmarkdown/authoring_pandoc_mar...
amai | a month ago