I personally belive that most people who are lonely are scared. No shame in that. I've been scared too. I think they'd rather stay indoors and watch TV than go out and socialize and meet people, because it's more comfortable to do so and they don't have to face the fear. I'm an introvert. I sympathize.
But you gotta do something to get out of the house anyway if you don't want to be lonely. It does get easier. But you gotta do it.
What did it for me was realizing that I didn’t really enjoy most of the conversations I was having. I can be social well enough, I’ve been able to slide in and out of groups social groups over the years, but I made the mistake of starting to ask “what’s in it for me?”
“To be interesting, be interested in other people,” sounds like great advice until you realize how rarely those people are interested in you. How rarely your interests and hobbies are topics of discussion.
This can be a problem even for nerds in nerd space, you might be too casual or too invested to really participate at the same level of conversation that the other people are looking for. You might enjoy anime, but you’re not a weeb, so you still feel out of place at anime specific events, like conventions, where there’s still a disconnect with how intense everyone else is.
The best thing that I ever did for my mental health was to stop trying to find “my people.” To stop worrying about what was wrong with me, and simply learn to enjoy the time I have to myself.
Man I hate the automoderator for this sub. Won't let me ask a simple question.
So, do you consider yourself "lonely" at this point? Because being a loner is different from being lonely. I quite enjoy people, but for about two hours and then I want to be alone. The best thing that's happened to me was meeting my wife, because with her I feel as comfortable as I do when I want to be alone. Strange to say.
Before loners had no option but to eventually leave the house if they got too lonely or do some soul searching when all of their antisocial opinions and habits ostracized them. Now they can temper their loneliness by talking to other malcontents online and instead of growing, they can double down in their off putting traits
I think this has a lot to do with it. Putnam was riffing on this topic in Bowling Alone, and even though that book has some significant issues, he's not wrong when he talks about the decline of the public space in most people's lives.
Which, as you say, is exacerbated by being able to instantly find someone who agrees with one's misanthropy online.
People love to complain about having nothing to do but they also don’t want to leave the couch. I hated when my parents told me “only boring people are bored” but it’s 1000% true.
I think there’s a lot of reasons. Want to have a meeting? Not at a library. Want to have a 2nd screen connected to your laptop? Not in a library. Want to go have lunch without losing your spot and leaving your stuff at the desk? Not in a library.
The only thing that can somewhat challenge that are coworking spaces, but those cost money. Spaces like that will never beat offices that were properly _made_ for working.
Most libraries are cutting their hours though. When I was a kid the library was open until ten pm six days a week. Now the library near me (the main branch no less) is changing its closing time from eight pm to seven. Not a lot of time to get there after work although it’s still doable.
Yeah, that's gonna be more of a weekend thing. What you can do is go to their website and check their calendar of events, most of which do not take place at the library.
Getting a dog changed my life. I take her to the dog park as often as I can and have made a whole friend group of people from there. Old, young, men, women... we all know each other well and have hung out at breweries and stuff. Lots of lonely people at the dog park who are keen to make friends.
Hadn't dated in years... in the last 4 since getting a dog, Ive had 3 relationships that started at a dog park.
Yeah... I moved across the country for a 7 year relationship which fell apart when we got there. Functionally Lost all my old friends (because they live 1500 miles away)
I split custody of our old dog with my ex. My dog doesn't get along with other dogs...
Theres obviously still assholes at the dog park, but i find the average person's quality to be much higher than just about any other gathering of humans.
That a person would take time out of their day for their dog to play is usually a good indicator
Do you have a disc golf course nearby? I'll put in my plug for that. Low barrier for entry, easy community building, addictive in positive ways. You'll meet friendly folks out there. Throwing things is satisfying
I work from home and disc golf is my guaranteed outdoor activity, weekly. I love that the sport is me against myself and it’s a hike where you see awesome nature.
The two easiest ways are to volunteer for something and join a club. There are running clubs, climbing clubs, my local library hosts open book clubs. Try some new hobbies.
Walks. You live anywhere dense? I picked up fishing to get me outside even though I live in a massive city. We have a lot of water. I go out to places to scope em out for fishing, and how close they are to a place I want to eat or drink. Helps me get out and explore. Also encourages me to go camping to keep exploring. Built up a lot of skills I'm kind of proud of. And I have taught a few friends how to fish with cheap aliexpress poles and lures.
I'm physically disabled. Was fired from jobs. Got certs and a degree but I can't sit in front of a computer and focus without throwing out my back. I panic sweat in my sleep from pain nightly. Drenching everything. Waking me up so many times, feeling the damp surrounding me.
But I've never been happier in life due to never giving up on trying to be the kind of person I want to be. It has attracted many incredible, amazing people into my life, including the most amazing woman I've ever had the pleasure of getting to learn to love.
I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't understand how this is relevant... How does walking make you less lonely? I go for walks nearly every day, in the afternoon or evening, but it's not exactly conducive to meeting new people. I walk past a lot of people, sure, but that has never made me feel less lonely.
Gets you out and see the world. Interact with people. Gives you opportunities you won't find in your house. Free endorphins from moving your body and getting sunlight.
I do a lot of smiling and nodding hello to people on walks. Even in my dense city, there are a lot of people willing to share a smile. I love the Midwest for this. You just have to have an earnest one yourself. I close my eyes when I give a slight smile and nod. It looks and feels earnest. It makes me feel connected to people. That eases my loneliness as I feel more connected to even strangers. Tiny shared joys.
Okay, I guess we just have different definitions of loneliness. Nodding and smiling at people does not replace genuine friendship and true companionship for me. I'm glad that it works for you.
It isn't meant to replace it. It's one of those things you build on to give you confidence outside. I had severe social anxiety so doing this helped me a lot. Feeling like I belonged. Still does, two decades later. When I'm feeling agoraphobic from the negative feelings, it was a great way to break myself out of them. Then I'd have the confidence to go out and do my hobbies.
Things like fishing, breweries, parks, beaches, restaurants, arcades (why do people think they're lame logan arcade fucking rules and so does galloping ghost), forest preserves and other cheap stuff. None of this has to be expensive. But people with money do em too.
Every time I'm out doing my hobbies, it's a chance to meet people. That earnest smile and nod gets me places with people in general. Catch someone's eyes? Smile and nod and move on. Reminding myself we're all just people calms my emotions and gets me out of my head. I've already spent a long time learning to be kind to myself so I can focus less on myself in public situations. AKA I figured my shit out. That way I can pay attention to other people in an earnest, friendly, curious way. People love talking about themselves, so if you start of a conversation with a compliment and a smile, people might want to tell you about the thing you complimented and why they like it.
Other people will shut you down. Learning to let that roll off your back gives you way more chances to meet other people, as your spirits won't be crushed. The people who respond positively? They rule. Never expect anything from them. Never put your expectations on them. Just appreciate them for who they are and you'll likely have a great time. Then they might want to spend more time with you.
I go out to music shows. We already have a common interest. I get into a lot of conversations with strangers at these.
if you tried being outgoing and a friendly person, you could make friends with those people. but you sound pretty defeated and ready to give up without trying
It’s absolutely a micro-interaction that you can build on. It gets you in the habit of interacting. It makes you far more likely to be in situations and have the opportunity to develop friends.
If you walk at the same time every day, you are likely to see the same people routinely. Greeting people like that is a micro-interaction that then makes other interactions easier. You find out who lives in your neighborhood, who owns what dog, etc. It’s free, so it’s available to anyone able to get out and walk (or use their wheelchair in places with good sidewalks). You see the same people often enough, and small talk can develop, etc.
I know the people in my neighborhood. I've been here for fifteen years. But I'm still not going to bother The Tall Man or Floral Skirt Lady at the grocery store just because I've been smiling at them while I walk past year after year.
I take women out into nature! I love sharing my passions with people. And I really enjoy recognizing things in others, good and bad, from a supportive stance.
In college there wasn't a lot of decent nature around, but there was this beautiful university owned estate with a forest walking path with statues collected from around the world a century ago. If I started connecting with someone, I'd talk about my hobbies. And I'd see if they knew about this estate. I'd invite em out to show em. I'd invite em out to secluded fishing spots. I'd take things slow and treat them like I the people I want to be friends with. Respect, honesty, and shared joy and pain are all in the mix to begin a relationship of any type.
So I'm sharing my joy, respecting the person's boundaries and limits (physical/ mental health), and sharing my joy that I've developed in my life with them. Oh and I'd be very open and honest about my disability. I'm in chronic pain that often causes my brain to not even work. It's obnoxious at times how limited I am in what I can do.
Find some volunteer organizations like habitat for humanity... they would absolutely love to have you, you'll learn important skills, and you might make friends while doing it.
Go dancing. Don’t make stuff difficult. Any music style will do. Don’t be afraid, just go alone. I do techno clubs, but EU based, so high quality clubs over here.
It's great advice but it depends where you live. I think in the UK it's quite hard to get past bouncers into a club on your own (as a guy at least). I used to love going on holiday to places where I could just enjoy nightlife solo. It was brilliant.
I was remote for 18 years and then retired. I have no friends now because all my friends were work friends. I've got to fix that, but like you haven't figured it out yet. Good luck my friend, we all need that these days.
Break the familiar pattern, put yourself out there. It takes practice to become less awkward, just like it takes practice to get good at video games etc.
I've been working remotely since 2001. This is 100% why I've always lived in or next to dense, popular neighborhoods in major cities. I rarely hang out with people I work with (which I prefer), but I have lots of friends who I've met due to various hobbies or becoming a regular at a bar or coffee shop or tagging along with friends' to their happy hour meet-ups. There's always a huge selection of things to do in a big city and there's always hundreds or thousands of people around who want to do them.
I recommend finding a nearby spot that you can frequent. You can keep to yourself but as you become a regular you will start to have new experiences and have opportunities to meet people. If they serve booze, that can streamline it. If not, take your time, observe the clientele and then when you feel more comfortable, try taking to other patrons. Good luck!
I started going to therapy first. That helped. I got the momentum I needed to start going to events solo. I've been going to ecstatic dance events. It's a long drive but it's worth it.
There is a difference between feeling “lonely” and actual isolation. It’s easier to admit your loneliness (or any other emotion) if you are more likely to have that admission heard and met by others.
Submission statement: Not to spoiler the thesis, but this was a compelling, data-backed story that once again, American culture has blinders on when it comes to the impact of class. We'd much rather our stories be familiar, sitcom-sourced tropes of emotionally stunted man-children than actually face the reality of life for the financially insecure. This then smoothly ties into the rising cost of well everything fun and the evaporation of third spaces.
Our city recently opened a community center. A true “third place” where you can spend time without an entrance fee or a need to purchase anything and the response has been OVERWHELMING. People meet up in the lobby to play chess and sit and chat and use the walking track outside and play basketball. There is almost nowhere in America to meet up with friends for free. Everything is so expensive. Our town officials are stunned at the response to the new community center.
This is the type of thing we need! I'm just stunned that any community in the US could get a project like this through, had the funding for it, and didn't waste most of the money over shenanigans and endless planning committees.
Yes, and it lays out the case in detail. It also shows that there isn’t actually a significant gap between men and women, so calling it a “male” loneliness epidemic is just wrong. And it has multiple examples from across the last 100 years or so of media talking about a “crisis of masculinity.” It’s a long running theme…. So basically, there is a ton of evidence that loneliness relates to class status. One of the things that points out that I find most interesting is actually the fact that people in low pain jobs 40 years ago or 50 years ago could expect to see the same people at work every day and that’s what socialize with those people – but the structure of those jobs has changed in a way that those people are much more isolated and don’t necessarily see each other at work every day. So people in low paid jobs tend to be much more isolated than they were a few decades ago.
Yeah, this is a great article. It dissects both the issues around poverty and the correlation between poverty and loneliness, and it does a really good job of deconstructing the whole crisis of masculinity thing. I love the historical example examples of how there’s been a crisis of masculinity for at least 100 years to show that loneliness is not a gendered thing caused by some new crisis for men.
> This then smoothly ties into the rising cost of well everything fun and the evaporation of third spaces.
99% of this sub: why are you complaining that you can't afford to take you(r kids) for a burrito? People during industrialization learned to enjoy what they had. You should too.
The thing that confuses me is, when were third spaces ever more of a thing? You always had to pay to go to activities. Parks still exist. Beaches still exist. Hiking trails are free. I'm not sure what has changed.
The percentage of income that was required to do these things in the past was a fraction of what it is today. If you are low income, you cannot afford to get to the park, the beach or that hike. When you're struggling to survive, the cost to go to the park may simply be too much, whether it's financial or emotional. Especially emotional. If you are incredibly overworked you simply don't have the energy - physicaly, emotional, psychological - to leave your home and do those things.
Socialising, even for extroverts, requires energy. And if you're at the end of your rope, you simply don't have the mental and physical energy resources to spend on socialisation. Add to that the cost of food today... many people suggest a cafe putting or grabbing a coffee together. But those on low incomes may not have the cash spare for even a coffee.
But, y'know, just go to the beach! Go on a hike! It's easy! It's not. It's really, really not.
Anything that cost a little bit of money now costs a lot of money, for example: bowling. I’m in my 20s and I remember as a teen it was like 50% of the current cost at my local bowling alley, literally less than 10 years ago. Used to be super cheap, most expensive part was getting drinks and snacks. Arcades have been getting ridiculous as well. The only time in my life I’ve regularly gone to bars is when I worked at one, because in my town the cheapest margaritas are still $15 and they aren’t very good.
Hiking and the dog park is still good but i never like make conversation with passerby’s while hiking and most the people at my dog park are 50-60+
No, the story wasn’t compelling. How it uses data and narrative is a bit manipulative / callous. There are some interesting thoughts from interviewees in the latter half though.
Aren't the statistics here slightly undercut by the underlying thesis of the male loneliness epidemic which is that men are socialized to deprioritize being social? Like if that thesis is true it would stand to reason that men would also be less likely to report feelings of loneliness in polling
Having said that, I do think the article touches on an important point that isn't widely discussed which is the impact of the pandemic on people's social lives. I don't know anybody who took the pandemic seriously and followed social distancing guidelines whose social life has fully recovered. Millions of people lost almost 2 years of their lives and in our eagerness to return to normalcy after the fact I think we have memoryholed that fact and done nothing to explore it's impact on our collective psyche. In many ways I think this explains Trump's reelection better than anything else
> I don't know anybody who took the pandemic seriously and followed social distancing guidelines whose social life has fully recovered.
My experience is the opposite. Everything has returned to normal.
We were discussing the other day, that the only permanent changes we could identify were a small number of people continue to mask in public and workplaces now have more remote workers.
I agree to some extent with this but would disagree in a number of other ways. I have several friends who had children either right before or during the pandemic years. And not just that but people's lives change quite a bit in a 3-5 year period.
When you are seeing people on a regular basis and going through change together, you tend to move together and the changes don't seem so big.
But when you have a friend that has a kid in late 2019 and you aren't really "back to normal" until let's say 2022 or 2023......they have a 3-4 year old. That's a massive difference. And the parents are in a very different place in life.
Getting the relationship back to the way it was and then catching up isn't really a think - you just have a new reality that you need to accept.
People passed away, birthdays and holidays were missed or different, people didn't have large get togethers
EDIT: I’ll add some personal specific examples.
In Minnesota the Basilica Block Party was a huge event in Minneapolis that went away during the pandemic. They tried to bring it back a few years later and weren’t able to draw the same crowds and/or headliner bands - so now it’s permanently gone after decades of it being a thing.
I had a relative who had substance abuse issues during isolation of pandemic. They are now sober but they won’t get the time and some of the health back and it’s changed the nature of social events/gatherings.
A friend started grad school in 2019, had basically one normal semester and then everything went virtual. They keep in touch with one or two people from grad school but that’s about it. People who completed grad school in 2019 or even 2020 have entire cohorts of people who get together. So very different experience.
There are restaurants and venues that people went to and had memories that are now permanently closed due to the pandemic. So yes, you can pick a new spot but doesn’t have the same connection that the prior place does.
Finally, people moved, especially with remote work, so people you were close to or social with suddenly aren’t physically close when things returned to normal
There's also just the passage of time. When the pandemic started most of my friends were 27 or 28, by the time it was definitively over over people were 29 or 30. In 2019 we were going out until 2 AM and then in 2022 people were going to bed at 10 PM
Aaa you really hit on something here. My cousins have both had children. I really want to reconnect with them, but something has been holding me back. It's that I don't know how they'll accept me. Even though I KNOW for a fact they're all great people I want to spend time with. What a lame thing to hold me back. But very human. Now I have to do something about it or I'll just continue to generate guilt. It's my responsibility.
The changes I see in my city is that a lot of places closed/reduced hours. We used to have places that were open 24/7 now they all close at midnight. Also remote work was a thing before the pandemic (I was hybrid before the pandemic now rto got rid of that lol).
We had an incredibly close friend group- weekly get-togethers, lunches on nearly every weekend, trips together, kids were all friends, etc. Some of us were serious about social distancing, others were more lax about it. The last time we all hung out was a dinner out in the summer of 2021, and it was awkward. Some of the group were tightly connected and saw eachother regularly, others of us hadn't really been together in person much at all- just chatting through the group chat. We all splintered after that, no animosity, just disconnected. I look back on the times we all hung out with a lot of fondness and happy memories- it felt kind of like high school in our late 30s, like the time would never end. It's sad really. Now, at 42, my only real friends are my family.
>I don't know anybody who took the pandemic seriously and followed social distancing guidelines whose social life has fully recovered.
I now feel a renewed sense of appreciation that my social life weathered taking the pandemic seriously. First, I made a lot of new friends in a local outdoor group. It was great being able to remain social, while distanced and outside, which I think was recommended behavior. Additionally, my friends and I also started playing boardgames online a lot, which helped too. I mean, it's certainly not the same, but it genuinely helped, and we were even able to reconnect with friends who had moved out of state long before the pandemic, which no longer mattered.
All this to say, I know not everyone was able to do either of those things, let alone both - which is exactly what this article says; it's not one gender or the other that's lonely, it's those struggling to afford exactly what I just mentioned - so now I'm even more thankful than I had been to enjoy what I did. It's a really interesting point and sobering thought the lasting impact of not doing that.
Well there were also statistics about the time spent alone being more tied to income than gender, and time spent alone is less subjective than feelings of loneliness.
Also like. Even if you never ask anything of anyone, if you're immune compromised and still need to mask, you're gonna get constant rejection because no one worked through their trauma and would rather pretend the pandemic never happened.
"Back to normal" created an enviorment where people who didn't take covid seriously have their social lives back but people who are still at risk are ostracized, and even if you are not in either group, a social order that considers that acceptable... well, I suspect that's a major contributor of how transactional relationships have gotten and how willing people are to end them over the first discomfort or inconvenience.
I feel like nearly all of the gender war stuff we're seeing right now has an underlying element of economics. i.e.
Why are young women buying the lie of the tradwife lifestyle? Because it's so much more appealing to believe you can enjoy what it promises (purpose, security and stability) than to resign yourself to becoming another corporate cog, which provides less material benefit for the same amount of work compared to past generations. Especially if the woman has a genuine desire to be a mother. Most workplaces make being a working mom difficult, and it's still a hard bargain for many even in the companies that do better.
I don't think it's mutually exclusive. You can see the "loneliness epidemic" as affecting both men and women while also recognizing that how it is affecting men and women is not likely the same. I'd be curious to see a comparison of outcomes between men and women experiencing loneliness.
> Why are young women buying the lie of the tradwife lifestyle?
Shouldn’t women be able to choose the lifestyle they’d like to live? Forcing women into those roles is terrible… but if that’s the woman’s choice and it’s an agreement she and her partner agree to - what’s wrong? Where’s the lie?
Forcing a lifestyle on others is wrong, but I just can’t see choosing your lifestyle to live being wrong.
I feel like going to someone who’s made her career in liberal political commentary to define a lifestyle she doesn’t agree with isn’t necessarily the best choice.
Would you go to Riley Gaines for a definition of transgender identity?
Fine. Pick a different source. It's still fundamentally a fraudulent picture that is being painted for profit.
You can read or watch any of the testimonials of women who tried to make it work and urging younger women to not fall for it. These are people who used to believe it, tried to make it work, and realized it's a raw deal for the women.
Not really sure why you keep deliberately misinterpreting my point
Is this an issue in the UK? Seems like it’s easy to talk to anyone at a pub and it skews male mostly. It’s a gathering spot, a cheap source of entertainment and socialization. I wouldn’t call it a third space, but the UK has plenty of parks full of people on sunny days that would make most American cities seem pitifully empty. Isolation feels like a product of city design in the US whether by accident or not.
I'd argue that it's an issue across the western world to varying degrees, and one that effects women too. Japan has Hikikomori, Ireland has one of the highest rates of people experincing lonliness in Europe (we have pubs too).
The death of popular religion, the transient nature of working life, remote working, financial pressures, apartment living, gentrification, online communities, rural depopulation /urbanisation, and the commercialisation of our personal time, etc. etc.
All these things contribute to it, and are reasonably universal.
The guy who coined the term Third Space would. His book talks a great deal about the importance of dive bars, cafes, and cheap diners.
Inflation and tipping culture has put a strain on these as viable options, but the idea of a third place was that it was an accessable place to go and socialize outside of home or work. A third place doesn't need to be free, but it does need to be cheap/affordable.
The book is called "The Great Good Place: Cafes, Coffee Shops, Bookstores, Bars, Hair Salons, and Other Hangouts at the Heart of a Community" by Ray Oldenburg
Thank you for the supplemental addendum to this conversation. I appreciate learning more from and connect with strangers, as I do when I’m in a pub or other third space!!!
I don't think the article dismisses it at all, nor do I think presenting empirical findings constitutes "comparing it to another group that has it worse."
In contrast, the article made a big point about how many people are flippant about the loneliness epidemic, and criticized those viewpoints.
What made you feel that the article dismissed male loneliness?
This title is as helpful as something like, “It’s larger than the Male Loneliness Crisis”. Stating there is no such thing is pernicious and gaslighting people who are suffering.
It’s probably more helpful to make the distinction between causes, income, social, demographic definitions. But while the research presents this as a wide problem, the title dismisses a targeted population.
The idea that poor people are the real lonely people just doesn’t match up with what I have seen, pre or post pandemic. The poor people I know have way more ties to their neighbors than richer people. Poor people knock on the door and grab an old fishing pole and walk down to the lake and just talk and fish for hours. Rich people think you have to go to a restaurant to do any socializing. Poor people are always borrowing each others tools or small appliances and fixing things themselves, rich people go running to a mechanic for every minor nuisance. Examples abound of poor people who get things done together in their communities while rich people isolate themselves and outsource everything.
An alternate consideration is that the data is not measuring what it purports to measure, which can be due to problems in study design & methodology for instance. Data is systematic but is susceptible to systematic errors and may not actually support the claims being made based on that data. I wonder that the linked article may be making overly broad claims -- the claims run somewhat contrary to other research in other disciplines. As an example, it's well characterized in psychological literature that men can be more reliant on spousal support for emotional well-being, and are more exposed to depression risk and other adverse outcomes following termination of the partnership. Culturally, we know that men are more likely to be underdeveloped from an emotion management standpoint.
When people are pointing out that their personal experiences differ from what the sources in the article claim, this may represent a cultural narrative that is fictitious, or could be due to real differences in what those studies were claiming to measure vs. what is actually occurring. Journalistically, making a stronger claim, particularly one that is controversial, is going to generate more views.
They’re basically setting up playdates for their partner and getting half-assed attempts in return. That’s what they’re making fun of. If you expect your partner to be your mother and repair your life for you, then perhaps put a little more sincerity into trying than grunts about sports and marvel. At some point you also have to get over yourself.
Men enmass pretend they face rejection all the time but the reality is they put themselves in positions where they don’t actually have to face real vulnerability of
rejection, which is why they’re lonely. If men actually faced rejection as much as they claimed, and took risks, they’d be desensitized. But they don’t, so even the idea of being sincere seems catastrophic to them. Women are used to being vulnerable. That’s why men fear being laughed at more than women fear being murdered. Because men let the idea of rejection build up in their heads until it’s some dark souls boss that they’re putting off fighting. (In reality at worst they face an awkward dialogue.)
Trust. Difficulty seeing beyond a mask and reading signs. Overwhelming exposure to negative messaging.
I was thrown into a leadership role 21 years ago where I was all by myself against a group of older people with a reputation and the backing of my boss. I had to find an edge. So this is what I stick by now. If nobody understands my edge I don’t trust them. I might socialize but I won’t trust. And that has made life a lot easier. Most of the time anyway when I don’t lament how lonely it feels.
The problem is we have given up the power to meet new people to apps and platforms that are designed so that you don't meet people but use their product.
And yeah, that means taking risk and possibly getting hurt but thats what it takes to have a human relationship.
People are so scared to try becasue to try is to risk failure amd expose their own shortcomings that they are unable to extend their own end of maintaining a relationship, and thus the prophecy self fulfills when it eventually withers away.
And I have ADHD and get rejection sensitivity and yeah it hurts, but thats what it takes. I will rather take 100 rejections and all the pain that goes with it than always wonder. Becasue if I dont do anything about it, nobody else will.
Therapy is cute to talk about, but not a real solution for a lot of men’s problems. Our problems are that the world requires much of us, and we cannot afford the solutions required. Talking about that is possibly helpful in a venting sense, but does nothing to solve the root problem. [By and large] We aren’t mad at our fathers; we weren’t abused by our mothers; we aren’t some case study in the DSM. We are trained providers and protectors who cannot afford to provide and whose protection is denigrated.
If you need me, I’ll be out. Walking my dog. Talking to my local barista and bartender. Hanging with my best friend. I’m not lonely. I’ve just resigned from a game of loaded dice. There’s a difference.
Folks will change their behavior when the pain of continuing becomes more than the pain associated with actually trying to build relationships. Until then the same will continue. I've experienced several of these "lonley" men-children and they have main character syndrome and view others as NPC's even though they're feckless themselves. It's quite a conundrum.
“Many men are socialized to prioritize strength, independence and stoicism, making it difficult for them to open up and form emotional connections.” I really don’t see how this matters, or if it’s even true at all today. One of the most famous lines in tv history is Tony Soprano saying guys used to be the “strong silent type”, because it’s common knowledge that men were more like that. And obviously men were far more sociable and had more friends decades ago.
Significant-Pitch387 | a day ago
I work remotely and live alone. I spend nearly 100% of time on weekdays alone; i try to do activities on weekends...
The average number of hours alone per day was 5.5... i've gotta be above 20 at least
I don't know how to change my life.
thecastellan1115 | a day ago
Go to the library.
Seriously. All public libraries have whole lists of activities that are generally either cheap or free and involve socializing.
fruitybrisket | a day ago
This is the easiest answer, but it hasn't really been embraced for some reason. Maybe the event schedules conflicting with work schedules.
thecastellan1115 | a day ago
I personally belive that most people who are lonely are scared. No shame in that. I've been scared too. I think they'd rather stay indoors and watch TV than go out and socialize and meet people, because it's more comfortable to do so and they don't have to face the fear. I'm an introvert. I sympathize.
But you gotta do something to get out of the house anyway if you don't want to be lonely. It does get easier. But you gotta do it.
ThyNynax | 19 hours ago
What did it for me was realizing that I didn’t really enjoy most of the conversations I was having. I can be social well enough, I’ve been able to slide in and out of groups social groups over the years, but I made the mistake of starting to ask “what’s in it for me?”
“To be interesting, be interested in other people,” sounds like great advice until you realize how rarely those people are interested in you. How rarely your interests and hobbies are topics of discussion. This can be a problem even for nerds in nerd space, you might be too casual or too invested to really participate at the same level of conversation that the other people are looking for. You might enjoy anime, but you’re not a weeb, so you still feel out of place at anime specific events, like conventions, where there’s still a disconnect with how intense everyone else is.
The best thing that I ever did for my mental health was to stop trying to find “my people.” To stop worrying about what was wrong with me, and simply learn to enjoy the time I have to myself.
thecastellan1115 | 18 hours ago
Man I hate the automoderator for this sub. Won't let me ask a simple question.
So, do you consider yourself "lonely" at this point? Because being a loner is different from being lonely. I quite enjoy people, but for about two hours and then I want to be alone. The best thing that's happened to me was meeting my wife, because with her I feel as comfortable as I do when I want to be alone. Strange to say.
King_marik | 21 hours ago
Or you tried for 30+ years and after rejection being the only thing you ever get you just realize this is fucking pointless and stop engaging
Sometimes you just suck, people dont like you, some of its your fault some of its theres, and there just isnt much you can do about it
If i go to a library event im just 'the creepy guy in the back of the room'
Fun lol
thecastellan1115 | 21 hours ago
Sure. I've known people like that. I just don't think there's enough of them out there to account for the whole "epidemic" business.
That being said, haircut, shave, shower, learn how to dress, and sit in the front.
King_marik | 21 hours ago
Oh boy the same generic reddit advice!
Don't worry the most insufferable dumbest people you know are on the job!
Glittering-Path-2824 | 14 hours ago
yes indeed. but why is this a problem *now*? young men have existed forever.
cheapMaltLiqour | 8 hours ago
Before loners had no option but to eventually leave the house if they got too lonely or do some soul searching when all of their antisocial opinions and habits ostracized them. Now they can temper their loneliness by talking to other malcontents online and instead of growing, they can double down in their off putting traits
thecastellan1115 | 4 hours ago
I think this has a lot to do with it. Putnam was riffing on this topic in Bowling Alone, and even though that book has some significant issues, he's not wrong when he talks about the decline of the public space in most people's lives.
Which, as you say, is exacerbated by being able to instantly find someone who agrees with one's misanthropy online.
Zizi_Tennenbaum | 23 hours ago
People love to complain about having nothing to do but they also don’t want to leave the couch. I hated when my parents told me “only boring people are bored” but it’s 1000% true.
The_Lantean | 23 hours ago
I think there’s a lot of reasons. Want to have a meeting? Not at a library. Want to have a 2nd screen connected to your laptop? Not in a library. Want to go have lunch without losing your spot and leaving your stuff at the desk? Not in a library.
The only thing that can somewhat challenge that are coworking spaces, but those cost money. Spaces like that will never beat offices that were properly _made_ for working.
CorndogQueen420 | 4 hours ago
My local YMCA has a lot of activities too. Saw a poster for a sword fighting fitness class the other day 😂
Catadox | 21 hours ago
Most libraries are cutting their hours though. When I was a kid the library was open until ten pm six days a week. Now the library near me (the main branch no less) is changing its closing time from eight pm to seven. Not a lot of time to get there after work although it’s still doable.
thecastellan1115 | 21 hours ago
Yeah, that's gonna be more of a weekend thing. What you can do is go to their website and check their calendar of events, most of which do not take place at the library.
rick_ferrari | a day ago
Hey, same situation here.
Getting a dog changed my life. I take her to the dog park as often as I can and have made a whole friend group of people from there. Old, young, men, women... we all know each other well and have hung out at breweries and stuff. Lots of lonely people at the dog park who are keen to make friends.
Hadn't dated in years... in the last 4 since getting a dog, Ive had 3 relationships that started at a dog park.
Significant-Pitch387 | 23 hours ago
Yeah... I moved across the country for a 7 year relationship which fell apart when we got there. Functionally Lost all my old friends (because they live 1500 miles away)
I split custody of our old dog with my ex. My dog doesn't get along with other dogs...
Nullspark | 5 hours ago
I'm getting a dog and when that pupper is vaccinated, dog park is going to be a happening. It's one of my favorite places to just hang out at.
rick_ferrari | 4 hours ago
Amen.
Theres obviously still assholes at the dog park, but i find the average person's quality to be much higher than just about any other gathering of humans.
That a person would take time out of their day for their dog to play is usually a good indicator
lllucascharles | a day ago
Do you have a disc golf course nearby? I'll put in my plug for that. Low barrier for entry, easy community building, addictive in positive ways. You'll meet friendly folks out there. Throwing things is satisfying
churro-k | 15 hours ago
I work from home and disc golf is my guaranteed outdoor activity, weekly. I love that the sport is me against myself and it’s a hike where you see awesome nature.
geneusutwerk | a day ago
The two easiest ways are to volunteer for something and join a club. There are running clubs, climbing clubs, my local library hosts open book clubs. Try some new hobbies.
SlapTheBap | a day ago
Walks. You live anywhere dense? I picked up fishing to get me outside even though I live in a massive city. We have a lot of water. I go out to places to scope em out for fishing, and how close they are to a place I want to eat or drink. Helps me get out and explore. Also encourages me to go camping to keep exploring. Built up a lot of skills I'm kind of proud of. And I have taught a few friends how to fish with cheap aliexpress poles and lures.
I'm physically disabled. Was fired from jobs. Got certs and a degree but I can't sit in front of a computer and focus without throwing out my back. I panic sweat in my sleep from pain nightly. Drenching everything. Waking me up so many times, feeling the damp surrounding me.
But I've never been happier in life due to never giving up on trying to be the kind of person I want to be. It has attracted many incredible, amazing people into my life, including the most amazing woman I've ever had the pleasure of getting to learn to love.
RicardoFelipeMejia | a day ago
I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't understand how this is relevant... How does walking make you less lonely? I go for walks nearly every day, in the afternoon or evening, but it's not exactly conducive to meeting new people. I walk past a lot of people, sure, but that has never made me feel less lonely.
SlapTheBap | a day ago
Gets you out and see the world. Interact with people. Gives you opportunities you won't find in your house. Free endorphins from moving your body and getting sunlight.
I do a lot of smiling and nodding hello to people on walks. Even in my dense city, there are a lot of people willing to share a smile. I love the Midwest for this. You just have to have an earnest one yourself. I close my eyes when I give a slight smile and nod. It looks and feels earnest. It makes me feel connected to people. That eases my loneliness as I feel more connected to even strangers. Tiny shared joys.
RicardoFelipeMejia | a day ago
Okay, I guess we just have different definitions of loneliness. Nodding and smiling at people does not replace genuine friendship and true companionship for me. I'm glad that it works for you.
SlapTheBap | a day ago
It isn't meant to replace it. It's one of those things you build on to give you confidence outside. I had severe social anxiety so doing this helped me a lot. Feeling like I belonged. Still does, two decades later. When I'm feeling agoraphobic from the negative feelings, it was a great way to break myself out of them. Then I'd have the confidence to go out and do my hobbies.
Things like fishing, breweries, parks, beaches, restaurants, arcades (why do people think they're lame logan arcade fucking rules and so does galloping ghost), forest preserves and other cheap stuff. None of this has to be expensive. But people with money do em too.
Every time I'm out doing my hobbies, it's a chance to meet people. That earnest smile and nod gets me places with people in general. Catch someone's eyes? Smile and nod and move on. Reminding myself we're all just people calms my emotions and gets me out of my head. I've already spent a long time learning to be kind to myself so I can focus less on myself in public situations. AKA I figured my shit out. That way I can pay attention to other people in an earnest, friendly, curious way. People love talking about themselves, so if you start of a conversation with a compliment and a smile, people might want to tell you about the thing you complimented and why they like it.
Other people will shut you down. Learning to let that roll off your back gives you way more chances to meet other people, as your spirits won't be crushed. The people who respond positively? They rule. Never expect anything from them. Never put your expectations on them. Just appreciate them for who they are and you'll likely have a great time. Then they might want to spend more time with you.
I go out to music shows. We already have a common interest. I get into a lot of conversations with strangers at these.
rtshtbtshtdrtyldtwt | 22 hours ago
if you tried being outgoing and a friendly person, you could make friends with those people. but you sound pretty defeated and ready to give up without trying
Esme_Nog | 19 hours ago
It’s absolutely a micro-interaction that you can build on. It gets you in the habit of interacting. It makes you far more likely to be in situations and have the opportunity to develop friends.
Esme_Nog | 19 hours ago
If you walk at the same time every day, you are likely to see the same people routinely. Greeting people like that is a micro-interaction that then makes other interactions easier. You find out who lives in your neighborhood, who owns what dog, etc. It’s free, so it’s available to anyone able to get out and walk (or use their wheelchair in places with good sidewalks). You see the same people often enough, and small talk can develop, etc.
RicardoFelipeMejia | 19 hours ago
I know the people in my neighborhood. I've been here for fifteen years. But I'm still not going to bother The Tall Man or Floral Skirt Lady at the grocery store just because I've been smiling at them while I walk past year after year.
wilkinsk | a day ago
How did it lead you to finding a woman?
I feel like I'm going to be seperate from communities with women for all my life some times
4ofclubs | a day ago
Not everything has to be about getting laid. Desperation is a huge turn off.
SlapTheBap | a day ago
I take women out into nature! I love sharing my passions with people. And I really enjoy recognizing things in others, good and bad, from a supportive stance.
In college there wasn't a lot of decent nature around, but there was this beautiful university owned estate with a forest walking path with statues collected from around the world a century ago. If I started connecting with someone, I'd talk about my hobbies. And I'd see if they knew about this estate. I'd invite em out to show em. I'd invite em out to secluded fishing spots. I'd take things slow and treat them like I the people I want to be friends with. Respect, honesty, and shared joy and pain are all in the mix to begin a relationship of any type.
So I'm sharing my joy, respecting the person's boundaries and limits (physical/ mental health), and sharing my joy that I've developed in my life with them. Oh and I'd be very open and honest about my disability. I'm in chronic pain that often causes my brain to not even work. It's obnoxious at times how limited I am in what I can do.
RuthlessMango | 21 hours ago
Find some volunteer organizations like habitat for humanity... they would absolutely love to have you, you'll learn important skills, and you might make friends while doing it.
jorisepe | 19 hours ago
Go dancing. Don’t make stuff difficult. Any music style will do. Don’t be afraid, just go alone. I do techno clubs, but EU based, so high quality clubs over here.
KnoxCastle | 15 hours ago
It's great advice but it depends where you live. I think in the UK it's quite hard to get past bouncers into a club on your own (as a guy at least). I used to love going on holiday to places where I could just enjoy nightlife solo. It was brilliant.
the_smush_push | 23 hours ago
seriously, get on your local reddit and ask who wants to hang out. that talented in my community and now i’m surrounded by friends.
Waschaos | 22 hours ago
I was remote for 18 years and then retired. I have no friends now because all my friends were work friends. I've got to fix that, but like you haven't figured it out yet. Good luck my friend, we all need that these days.
Esme_Nog | 19 hours ago
Your county political party organization would likely love to have you involved.
Damnatio__memoriae | 19 hours ago
Find a club to join. I started playing pinball and going to tournaments. I have so many friends now.
Additional_Buddy855 | 23 hours ago
Break the familiar pattern, put yourself out there. It takes practice to become less awkward, just like it takes practice to get good at video games etc.
enobrev | 22 hours ago
I've been working remotely since 2001. This is 100% why I've always lived in or next to dense, popular neighborhoods in major cities. I rarely hang out with people I work with (which I prefer), but I have lots of friends who I've met due to various hobbies or becoming a regular at a bar or coffee shop or tagging along with friends' to their happy hour meet-ups. There's always a huge selection of things to do in a big city and there's always hundreds or thousands of people around who want to do them.
Volant79 | 15 hours ago
I recommend finding a nearby spot that you can frequent. You can keep to yourself but as you become a regular you will start to have new experiences and have opportunities to meet people. If they serve booze, that can streamline it. If not, take your time, observe the clientele and then when you feel more comfortable, try taking to other patrons. Good luck!
PointClickPenguin | 14 hours ago
Yeah this is me too man.
I started going to therapy first. That helped. I got the momentum I needed to start going to events solo. I've been going to ecstatic dance events. It's a long drive but it's worth it.
Victor_Korchnoi | 6 hours ago
Can you get a non-remote job? In theory, working from home sounded awesome, but I found it pretty depressing.
5aturncomesback | a day ago
There is a difference between feeling “lonely” and actual isolation. It’s easier to admit your loneliness (or any other emotion) if you are more likely to have that admission heard and met by others.
[OP] Bill_Nihilist | a day ago
Submission statement: Not to spoiler the thesis, but this was a compelling, data-backed story that once again, American culture has blinders on when it comes to the impact of class. We'd much rather our stories be familiar, sitcom-sourced tropes of emotionally stunted man-children than actually face the reality of life for the financially insecure. This then smoothly ties into the rising cost of well everything fun and the evaporation of third spaces.
West_Abrocoma9524 | a day ago
Our city recently opened a community center. A true “third place” where you can spend time without an entrance fee or a need to purchase anything and the response has been OVERWHELMING. People meet up in the lobby to play chess and sit and chat and use the walking track outside and play basketball. There is almost nowhere in America to meet up with friends for free. Everything is so expensive. Our town officials are stunned at the response to the new community center.
fruitybrisket | a day ago
I love that. Sounds way more fun than going to a bar and spending $50 to maaaybe make friends with some guy playing pool.
NativeMasshole | a day ago
This is the type of thing we need! I'm just stunned that any community in the US could get a project like this through, had the funding for it, and didn't waste most of the money over shenanigans and endless planning committees.
DruidHeart | a day ago
I couldn’t access the full article. Is the “darker” piece about class? Is the assertion that poverty increases loneliness?
Outside_Memory5703 | 23 hours ago
yes
poor people are lonelier because they can’t afford to go out and do things
and there’s data to back that up
Esme_Nog | 19 hours ago
Yes, and it lays out the case in detail. It also shows that there isn’t actually a significant gap between men and women, so calling it a “male” loneliness epidemic is just wrong. And it has multiple examples from across the last 100 years or so of media talking about a “crisis of masculinity.” It’s a long running theme…. So basically, there is a ton of evidence that loneliness relates to class status. One of the things that points out that I find most interesting is actually the fact that people in low pain jobs 40 years ago or 50 years ago could expect to see the same people at work every day and that’s what socialize with those people – but the structure of those jobs has changed in a way that those people are much more isolated and don’t necessarily see each other at work every day. So people in low paid jobs tend to be much more isolated than they were a few decades ago.
Esme_Nog | 19 hours ago
Yeah, this is a great article. It dissects both the issues around poverty and the correlation between poverty and loneliness, and it does a really good job of deconstructing the whole crisis of masculinity thing. I love the historical example examples of how there’s been a crisis of masculinity for at least 100 years to show that loneliness is not a gendered thing caused by some new crisis for men.
After-Watercress-644 | 23 hours ago
> This then smoothly ties into the rising cost of well everything fun and the evaporation of third spaces.
99% of this sub: why are you complaining that you can't afford to take you(r kids) for a burrito? People during industrialization learned to enjoy what they had. You should too.
thecatandthependulum | 14 hours ago
The thing that confuses me is, when were third spaces ever more of a thing? You always had to pay to go to activities. Parks still exist. Beaches still exist. Hiking trails are free. I'm not sure what has changed.
kisforkarol | 3 hours ago
The percentage of income that was required to do these things in the past was a fraction of what it is today. If you are low income, you cannot afford to get to the park, the beach or that hike. When you're struggling to survive, the cost to go to the park may simply be too much, whether it's financial or emotional. Especially emotional. If you are incredibly overworked you simply don't have the energy - physicaly, emotional, psychological - to leave your home and do those things.
Socialising, even for extroverts, requires energy. And if you're at the end of your rope, you simply don't have the mental and physical energy resources to spend on socialisation. Add to that the cost of food today... many people suggest a cafe putting or grabbing a coffee together. But those on low incomes may not have the cash spare for even a coffee.
But, y'know, just go to the beach! Go on a hike! It's easy! It's not. It's really, really not.
dogangels | 3 hours ago
Anything that cost a little bit of money now costs a lot of money, for example: bowling. I’m in my 20s and I remember as a teen it was like 50% of the current cost at my local bowling alley, literally less than 10 years ago. Used to be super cheap, most expensive part was getting drinks and snacks. Arcades have been getting ridiculous as well. The only time in my life I’ve regularly gone to bars is when I worked at one, because in my town the cheapest margaritas are still $15 and they aren’t very good.
Hiking and the dog park is still good but i never like make conversation with passerby’s while hiking and most the people at my dog park are 50-60+
fjaoaoaoao | 20 hours ago
No, the story wasn’t compelling. How it uses data and narrative is a bit manipulative / callous. There are some interesting thoughts from interviewees in the latter half though.
wolverine237 | a day ago
Aren't the statistics here slightly undercut by the underlying thesis of the male loneliness epidemic which is that men are socialized to deprioritize being social? Like if that thesis is true it would stand to reason that men would also be less likely to report feelings of loneliness in polling
Having said that, I do think the article touches on an important point that isn't widely discussed which is the impact of the pandemic on people's social lives. I don't know anybody who took the pandemic seriously and followed social distancing guidelines whose social life has fully recovered. Millions of people lost almost 2 years of their lives and in our eagerness to return to normalcy after the fact I think we have memoryholed that fact and done nothing to explore it's impact on our collective psyche. In many ways I think this explains Trump's reelection better than anything else
demlet | a day ago
In my neck of the woods, a lot of places that we might describe as third spaces closed down permanently too.
Positronic_Matrix | a day ago
> I don't know anybody who took the pandemic seriously and followed social distancing guidelines whose social life has fully recovered.
My experience is the opposite. Everything has returned to normal.
We were discussing the other day, that the only permanent changes we could identify were a small number of people continue to mask in public and workplaces now have more remote workers.
recoveringslowlyMN | a day ago
I agree to some extent with this but would disagree in a number of other ways. I have several friends who had children either right before or during the pandemic years. And not just that but people's lives change quite a bit in a 3-5 year period.
When you are seeing people on a regular basis and going through change together, you tend to move together and the changes don't seem so big.
But when you have a friend that has a kid in late 2019 and you aren't really "back to normal" until let's say 2022 or 2023......they have a 3-4 year old. That's a massive difference. And the parents are in a very different place in life.
Getting the relationship back to the way it was and then catching up isn't really a think - you just have a new reality that you need to accept.
People passed away, birthdays and holidays were missed or different, people didn't have large get togethers
EDIT: I’ll add some personal specific examples.
In Minnesota the Basilica Block Party was a huge event in Minneapolis that went away during the pandemic. They tried to bring it back a few years later and weren’t able to draw the same crowds and/or headliner bands - so now it’s permanently gone after decades of it being a thing.
I had a relative who had substance abuse issues during isolation of pandemic. They are now sober but they won’t get the time and some of the health back and it’s changed the nature of social events/gatherings.
A friend started grad school in 2019, had basically one normal semester and then everything went virtual. They keep in touch with one or two people from grad school but that’s about it. People who completed grad school in 2019 or even 2020 have entire cohorts of people who get together. So very different experience.
There are restaurants and venues that people went to and had memories that are now permanently closed due to the pandemic. So yes, you can pick a new spot but doesn’t have the same connection that the prior place does.
Finally, people moved, especially with remote work, so people you were close to or social with suddenly aren’t physically close when things returned to normal
wolverine237 | a day ago
There's also just the passage of time. When the pandemic started most of my friends were 27 or 28, by the time it was definitively over over people were 29 or 30. In 2019 we were going out until 2 AM and then in 2022 people were going to bed at 10 PM
SlapTheBap | a day ago
Aaa you really hit on something here. My cousins have both had children. I really want to reconnect with them, but something has been holding me back. It's that I don't know how they'll accept me. Even though I KNOW for a fact they're all great people I want to spend time with. What a lame thing to hold me back. But very human. Now I have to do something about it or I'll just continue to generate guilt. It's my responsibility.
Thank you.
One-Cardiologist4780 | 7 hours ago
The changes I see in my city is that a lot of places closed/reduced hours. We used to have places that were open 24/7 now they all close at midnight. Also remote work was a thing before the pandemic (I was hybrid before the pandemic now rto got rid of that lol).
I mask when I’m sick, which I like.
Njaa | 20 hours ago
I wonder what age each of you are, and if that could explain the difference.
I have the "it didn't matter too much" experience, but I imagine it would have mattered a lot more if I were younger.
fjaoaoaoao | 20 hours ago
The premise of the article is bad, but it serves the point of getting people to click. And a lot of people don’t care about such details, sadly.
amags12 | 20 hours ago
We had an incredibly close friend group- weekly get-togethers, lunches on nearly every weekend, trips together, kids were all friends, etc. Some of us were serious about social distancing, others were more lax about it. The last time we all hung out was a dinner out in the summer of 2021, and it was awkward. Some of the group were tightly connected and saw eachother regularly, others of us hadn't really been together in person much at all- just chatting through the group chat. We all splintered after that, no animosity, just disconnected. I look back on the times we all hung out with a lot of fondness and happy memories- it felt kind of like high school in our late 30s, like the time would never end. It's sad really. Now, at 42, my only real friends are my family.
CarpeNivem | a day ago
>I don't know anybody who took the pandemic seriously and followed social distancing guidelines whose social life has fully recovered.
I now feel a renewed sense of appreciation that my social life weathered taking the pandemic seriously. First, I made a lot of new friends in a local outdoor group. It was great being able to remain social, while distanced and outside, which I think was recommended behavior. Additionally, my friends and I also started playing boardgames online a lot, which helped too. I mean, it's certainly not the same, but it genuinely helped, and we were even able to reconnect with friends who had moved out of state long before the pandemic, which no longer mattered.
All this to say, I know not everyone was able to do either of those things, let alone both - which is exactly what this article says; it's not one gender or the other that's lonely, it's those struggling to afford exactly what I just mentioned - so now I'm even more thankful than I had been to enjoy what I did. It's a really interesting point and sobering thought the lasting impact of not doing that.
Xyolex | 22 hours ago
I don't know a single person whose social life didn't return to normal post covid lol, just goes to show how different our experiences can be
RogerStevenWhoever | 18 hours ago
Well there were also statistics about the time spent alone being more tied to income than gender, and time spent alone is less subjective than feelings of loneliness.
azebod | 16 hours ago
Also like. Even if you never ask anything of anyone, if you're immune compromised and still need to mask, you're gonna get constant rejection because no one worked through their trauma and would rather pretend the pandemic never happened.
"Back to normal" created an enviorment where people who didn't take covid seriously have their social lives back but people who are still at risk are ostracized, and even if you are not in either group, a social order that considers that acceptable... well, I suspect that's a major contributor of how transactional relationships have gotten and how willing people are to end them over the first discomfort or inconvenience.
rkgk13 | a day ago
I feel like nearly all of the gender war stuff we're seeing right now has an underlying element of economics. i.e.
Why are young women buying the lie of the tradwife lifestyle? Because it's so much more appealing to believe you can enjoy what it promises (purpose, security and stability) than to resign yourself to becoming another corporate cog, which provides less material benefit for the same amount of work compared to past generations. Especially if the woman has a genuine desire to be a mother. Most workplaces make being a working mom difficult, and it's still a hard bargain for many even in the companies that do better.
yakityyakblahtemp | 3 hours ago
I don't think it's mutually exclusive. You can see the "loneliness epidemic" as affecting both men and women while also recognizing that how it is affecting men and women is not likely the same. I'd be curious to see a comparison of outcomes between men and women experiencing loneliness.
SpilledKefir | 19 hours ago
> Why are young women buying the lie of the tradwife lifestyle?
Shouldn’t women be able to choose the lifestyle they’d like to live? Forcing women into those roles is terrible… but if that’s the woman’s choice and it’s an agreement she and her partner agree to - what’s wrong? Where’s the lie?
Forcing a lifestyle on others is wrong, but I just can’t see choosing your lifestyle to live being wrong.
rkgk13 | 19 hours ago
Choosing to be a stay at home wife and mom with your eyes wide open isn't the same thing as the social media driven tradwife lie I'm referring to.
https://www.pbs.org/video/tradwives-vs-reality-hxkfe4/
SpilledKefir | 18 hours ago
I feel like going to someone who’s made her career in liberal political commentary to define a lifestyle she doesn’t agree with isn’t necessarily the best choice.
Would you go to Riley Gaines for a definition of transgender identity?
rkgk13 | 18 hours ago
Fine. Pick a different source. It's still fundamentally a fraudulent picture that is being painted for profit.
You can read or watch any of the testimonials of women who tried to make it work and urging younger women to not fall for it. These are people who used to believe it, tried to make it work, and realized it's a raw deal for the women.
Not really sure why you keep deliberately misinterpreting my point
PurpleHeadWhiteTail | a day ago
Is this an issue in the UK? Seems like it’s easy to talk to anyone at a pub and it skews male mostly. It’s a gathering spot, a cheap source of entertainment and socialization. I wouldn’t call it a third space, but the UK has plenty of parks full of people on sunny days that would make most American cities seem pitifully empty. Isolation feels like a product of city design in the US whether by accident or not.
Minimum_Guitar4305 | a day ago
I'd argue that it's an issue across the western world to varying degrees, and one that effects women too. Japan has Hikikomori, Ireland has one of the highest rates of people experincing lonliness in Europe (we have pubs too).
The death of popular religion, the transient nature of working life, remote working, financial pressures, apartment living, gentrification, online communities, rural depopulation /urbanisation, and the commercialisation of our personal time, etc. etc.
All these things contribute to it, and are reasonably universal.
paperd | 19 hours ago
> I wouldn’t call it a third space
The guy who coined the term Third Space would. His book talks a great deal about the importance of dive bars, cafes, and cheap diners.
Inflation and tipping culture has put a strain on these as viable options, but the idea of a third place was that it was an accessable place to go and socialize outside of home or work. A third place doesn't need to be free, but it does need to be cheap/affordable.
The book is called "The Great Good Place: Cafes, Coffee Shops, Bookstores, Bars, Hair Salons, and Other Hangouts at the Heart of a Community" by Ray Oldenburg
PurpleHeadWhiteTail | 18 hours ago
Thank you for the supplemental addendum to this conversation. I appreciate learning more from and connect with strangers, as I do when I’m in a pub or other third space!!!
babblerer | 15 hours ago
It might be different elsewhere ( I'm posting from Australia), but the price of drinks has increased much faster than wages.
N3wAfrikanN0body | a day ago
Poor people feel lonely yet are expected to put on the mask of positivity like the financial parasites who exploit us.
Is it it happy hour yet?
Michelangelor | a day ago
Idk man, almost every guy I know is WAY more socially isolated than almost every girl I know.
Quantum_Kitties | a day ago
Yeah, I feel that dismissing male loneliness, or comparing it to another group that has it worse, will not do anything to help at all.
candlehand | 23 hours ago
I don't think the article dismisses it at all, nor do I think presenting empirical findings constitutes "comparing it to another group that has it worse."
In contrast, the article made a big point about how many people are flippant about the loneliness epidemic, and criticized those viewpoints.
What made you feel that the article dismissed male loneliness?
bacon_boat | 9 hours ago
I think the self reported feeling of lonenlyness is the difference.
Girls might have a social circle and still say they experience feelings of lonelyness, whereas a dude will report feeling lonely when he has no one.
[OP] Bill_Nihilist | 23 hours ago
We will weigh your anecdote alongside the available data with all the appropriate consideration.
Intrepid-Scale2052 | 7 hours ago
you mean the self reported data and also how much time they spend alone (loneliness ≠ being alone)
Michelangelor | 21 hours ago
Fortunately, research massively supports the reality than men are much more socially isolated than women are. Maybe you should read it.
NopeSorryNo | a day ago
Women and social media are desperately brigading the idea that men could be less happy than them. In the face of all reason.
attrackip | a day ago
This title is as helpful as something like, “It’s larger than the Male Loneliness Crisis”. Stating there is no such thing is pernicious and gaslighting people who are suffering.
It’s probably more helpful to make the distinction between causes, income, social, demographic definitions. But while the research presents this as a wide problem, the title dismisses a targeted population.
RDMvb6 | a day ago
The idea that poor people are the real lonely people just doesn’t match up with what I have seen, pre or post pandemic. The poor people I know have way more ties to their neighbors than richer people. Poor people knock on the door and grab an old fishing pole and walk down to the lake and just talk and fish for hours. Rich people think you have to go to a restaurant to do any socializing. Poor people are always borrowing each others tools or small appliances and fixing things themselves, rich people go running to a mechanic for every minor nuisance. Examples abound of poor people who get things done together in their communities while rich people isolate themselves and outsource everything.
[OP] Bill_Nihilist | 23 hours ago
We will weigh your anecdotes alongside the available data with all the appropriate consideration.
zorro_man | 8 hours ago
An alternate consideration is that the data is not measuring what it purports to measure, which can be due to problems in study design & methodology for instance. Data is systematic but is susceptible to systematic errors and may not actually support the claims being made based on that data. I wonder that the linked article may be making overly broad claims -- the claims run somewhat contrary to other research in other disciplines. As an example, it's well characterized in psychological literature that men can be more reliant on spousal support for emotional well-being, and are more exposed to depression risk and other adverse outcomes following termination of the partnership. Culturally, we know that men are more likely to be underdeveloped from an emotion management standpoint.
When people are pointing out that their personal experiences differ from what the sources in the article claim, this may represent a cultural narrative that is fictitious, or could be due to real differences in what those studies were claiming to measure vs. what is actually occurring. Journalistically, making a stronger claim, particularly one that is controversial, is going to generate more views.
HellPigeon1912 | a day ago
"In one viral sketch, exhausted women take their male partners to a “man park,” where they grunt about sports and Marvel movies"
Remember Men, even if you do bond over the things you like, you're still pathetic and we should laugh at it
starlight_chaser | 21 hours ago
They’re basically setting up playdates for their partner and getting half-assed attempts in return. That’s what they’re making fun of. If you expect your partner to be your mother and repair your life for you, then perhaps put a little more sincerity into trying than grunts about sports and marvel. At some point you also have to get over yourself.
Men enmass pretend they face rejection all the time but the reality is they put themselves in positions where they don’t actually have to face real vulnerability of rejection, which is why they’re lonely. If men actually faced rejection as much as they claimed, and took risks, they’d be desensitized. But they don’t, so even the idea of being sincere seems catastrophic to them. Women are used to being vulnerable. That’s why men fear being laughed at more than women fear being murdered. Because men let the idea of rejection build up in their heads until it’s some dark souls boss that they’re putting off fighting. (In reality at worst they face an awkward dialogue.)
dystopiatechnologica | 20 hours ago
Where'd you get this? Did you just make it up or is there research that corroborates it?
MmmmCrayons12 | 21 hours ago
The problem is isolation, not necessarily loneliness, but isolation within society leads to loneliness if one desires to not be isolated.
purposeday | 20 hours ago
Trust. Difficulty seeing beyond a mask and reading signs. Overwhelming exposure to negative messaging.
I was thrown into a leadership role 21 years ago where I was all by myself against a group of older people with a reputation and the backing of my boss. I had to find an edge. So this is what I stick by now. If nobody understands my edge I don’t trust them. I might socialize but I won’t trust. And that has made life a lot easier. Most of the time anyway when I don’t lament how lonely it feels.
Timmsworld | 17 hours ago
What people are missing is children. Having children is a huge exercise in socialization. It forces you to get out the house and meet people.
Snoo-23641 | 16 hours ago
Definitely one common path. Of course so are bowling leagues, volunteering, bars, etc.
Wooden-Glove-2384 | 15 hours ago
I'm fine with all this
I don't want to socialize
I got 6 people in my life.
they're all family who are drama free
one thing that gets lost in the talk about the loneliness epidemic is the reason we started to isolate
most people suck
AnimatorImpressive24 | 14 hours ago
If you were lonely 30 years ago before the internet, how would anybody know?
Deleterious_Sock | 9 hours ago
Talk to strangers on the street.
The problem is we have given up the power to meet new people to apps and platforms that are designed so that you don't meet people but use their product.
And yeah, that means taking risk and possibly getting hurt but thats what it takes to have a human relationship.
People are so scared to try becasue to try is to risk failure amd expose their own shortcomings that they are unable to extend their own end of maintaining a relationship, and thus the prophecy self fulfills when it eventually withers away.
And I have ADHD and get rejection sensitivity and yeah it hurts, but thats what it takes. I will rather take 100 rejections and all the pain that goes with it than always wonder. Becasue if I dont do anything about it, nobody else will.
Reclaim your agency.
Otarmichael | a day ago
Therapy is cute to talk about, but not a real solution for a lot of men’s problems. Our problems are that the world requires much of us, and we cannot afford the solutions required. Talking about that is possibly helpful in a venting sense, but does nothing to solve the root problem. [By and large] We aren’t mad at our fathers; we weren’t abused by our mothers; we aren’t some case study in the DSM. We are trained providers and protectors who cannot afford to provide and whose protection is denigrated.
If you need me, I’ll be out. Walking my dog. Talking to my local barista and bartender. Hanging with my best friend. I’m not lonely. I’ve just resigned from a game of loaded dice. There’s a difference.
Additional_Buddy855 | 23 hours ago
Folks will change their behavior when the pain of continuing becomes more than the pain associated with actually trying to build relationships. Until then the same will continue. I've experienced several of these "lonley" men-children and they have main character syndrome and view others as NPC's even though they're feckless themselves. It's quite a conundrum.
Saturnian6 | 21 hours ago
“Most men won’t admit it but they’re actually lonely uwu” why try to process men’s emotions for them and project falsehoods?
Salsashark1419 | a day ago
“Many men are socialized to prioritize strength, independence and stoicism, making it difficult for them to open up and form emotional connections.” I really don’t see how this matters, or if it’s even true at all today. One of the most famous lines in tv history is Tony Soprano saying guys used to be the “strong silent type”, because it’s common knowledge that men were more like that. And obviously men were far more sociable and had more friends decades ago.