This has been a pretty common practice in Japan because of mother-in-law / in-law culture/abuse. It was so bad during the bubble and post-bubble era that women opted out of marriage since there was a happier road of staying at home, spending all your money on yourself and taking care of your parents.
I have several cousins (male and female) who never married because they saw no point to it. My female cousin opted out of marriage and just heads a 3-story home with herself and my aunties (both in their 80s). They travel the country watching boy bands and going to hot springs to eat crab. Happy life.
We spent a few weeks in Japan this winter. My husband and I hung out and traveled with my aunties, and we had the best time. I think they're getting ready to enter the lottery for another boy band tour.
One aunt, who is my mother's younger sister, has been married twice. Both husbands were just awful. My aunt is quite attractive, and my eldest uncle said her man meter was broken (it was). He tore down the home and offered to build her an apartment in the current home, on the condition that she wouldn't marry anymore. She accepted it, and has been extremely happy these past 40 years.
I was reading through US census data the other day and thought these statistics was super interesting;
In 2022, about 57 percent of men and 55 percent of women aged 18-24 lived in their parents’ home, compared to 52 percent of men and 35 percent of women that age in 1960.
About 47 percent of households were married-couple households in 2022, down from 71 percent in 1970.
I’m guessing the difference is that young women here feel the same way about staying home with parents instead of getting married.
I genuinely don’t understand why women still think they need marriage in this day and age. It’s too much sacrifice and work for the promise of a mediocre relationship. You have to put up with a man’s flaws, his conscious and unconscious misogyny, the in laws, split all the bills, have less money for yourself, do more jobs around the house, have kids, be the primary caregiver, burnout, lose yourself.
Women should understand that we don’t need men for survival these days. Don’t tie yourself to a mediocre life just because you’re obsessed with romance and love. Unless you meet someone genuinely amazing who makes your life so much better and who adores you, please skip this chapter. A peaceful life and a regulated nervous system are priceless. Men rarely offer that. And don’t marry down 😭
Who's marrying for survival these days? I think most Western middle class women understand that we don't need men to survive. I agree that you should only commit to somebody who's worth it (I'm not sure about the marrying down bit, which seems a bit classist...) but there absolutely are men who are amazing and who make their partner's lives better. I am married to one. As far as I can tell, most of my female friends are also happier for having their partners in their lives.
Society often sets low standards for men in the domestic arena, but I'm not sure going the other way and declaring the whole entreprise pointless is any better. Hold men to high standards and believe they can achieve them!
Both divorced and widowed women are less likely to remarry than their male counterparts. So, even women who have spent significant time partnered are ALSO later on choosing to remain single, though with widowed women there is also a smaller pool of men of similar age.
I will sing the praises of my husband all day long. He’s good people, a good partner, I’m so very glad he’s in my life. But, assuming I live longer than him, which is statistically likely, I wouldn’t pursue another romantic relationship. Point being that even living for decades with a good to great relationship, a single life has very strong appeal.
I told my husband that if we divorced, I wouldn’t marry again. I played the game once. No need to do it again. I will never understand men who marry, have kids and then marry again to have more kids.
I tell my husband all the time, he’ll be the only man to call himself my husband. when this ends in either divorce or death, I’m not doing this again. Will I have a Rolodex of “friends”? Maybe. But im not commingling finances or spending my time being a caretaker (my descendants live long). I’m going to devote my life to my kids, extended family, community, and myself. I live in a HCOL, so I’ll prob still put some effort in looking cute and young but for my fam and myself.
I guess not. I do feel that there’s more pressure to looking fit and young in areas of HCOL, which is why I put it there as a reason why I might be more vain than others (of course people from non-HCOL can be just as vain or more). Regardless, my point is to emphasize that I still want to look young and fit for myself but not to attract a husband and play house.
it couldn't be that men just disproportionally benefit from being partnered with kids in a patriarchal society. it's just the mindless social conditioning they are helpless to resist.
The day before my grandma’s funeral, my grandad said he was going to have to “get on ChristianMingle to find someone to do the ironing”. He wasn’t kidding
Nah, most men are just looking for a nurse with a purse or a bang maid, and more women have realized that we don't get anything out of that, so we just rather stay single.
Same. We met in college so I’ve been partnered my entire adult life (I’m 48). I love him and I wouldn’t change being with him but I’m not interested in pursuing another partnership if he dies first.
I love my husband, we met young and dated other people first, but at the end of the day we both found that people just didn’t meet the standard set by how well we get along. He is the only person’s company I am never sick of.
If something happens to him, I know I likely would never want to live with or marry someone else.
The idea of dating around meeting weirdos when I’ve had a marriage that suits us effortlessly sounds irritating and exhausting.
I mean, I have widowed family members, and they are not remarrying for reasons of, I guess, loyalty to their late spouse. so that is also a factor in those cases
Men seem to be having a very hard time understanding that they are no longer competing with each other, they are competing with the lives we can give ourselves. And in many situations, the lives we can give ourselves far outclass any life a man could give us.
Pure autonomy is golden, and even in the best relationship with a man you have to cede some.
I've been married for 20 years but if I could go back and make different choices I would never have married at all. There is nothing a marriage with today's men brings that I would sacrifice my peace and stability for. I literally get more comprehensive emotional support from my dog, and I've never had to explain to my dog that I deserve respect.
As a man, when I read complaints about this and the complaint is that this is the fault of feminism, I think, "Yeah, perhaps it." Or a progressive society that means that women no longer need to find a man in order to have sanctuary or income or a home.
Women have an indepence today that they didn't 40 or 50 years ago.
If that progress means that it's no longer so easy to find a woman willing to give herself over to you purely because you hold all the cards, then perhaps you need to find some other reasons someone might want you.
And perhaps then consider what it is you're lacking if you can't find a partner because you can't coax her with what she already has
The suicide rate among married women in 1950 was 22.1 per 100k. Today it is 6.9 per 100k.
After the passage of no-fault divorce in 1970s and 1980s, suicide rates dropped 20%, there was a 10% decline in women murdered by their partners, and rates of other kinds of domestic violence against women dropped 30%.
There is a reason that White Christian nationalists won’t gain traction with women in general by attempting to roll back the clock. They are the only ones who want to go back to that.
Again, it's something where I go, "Ok, so you're aggrieved with feminism and a progressive society. So what's the better alternative you can point to?
And does that better alternative require women losing out on freedom and independence?
If that's the better alternative, then who's it better for?"
I know that these people don't have the depths of introspection to ask these questions, much less make the effort for an answer that will provoke sympathy for anything outside their interests or their prejudice.
I didn’t assume it which is why I asked. I realize it’s a lot more complex, and I didn’t know if this was coming from someone who was planning divorce or who was content.
lol. Good lord some people are wild. No, I would not "be happier" getting a divorce. My husband and I built a family, and that family is a wonderful thing. Our finances are pretty terminally linked.
Noting that given the choice all over again, given the experience i have now, that I would not have married is not an indication that my marriage is bad. It is recognition that marriage is an imperfect vessel to hold anyone, and that I'd have personally preferred not to have my finances linked with any other human and would have preferred to choose my own destiny to a greater degree.
But really, it's like some of y'all don't understand nuance at all.
You're right of course, saying that you would have chosen to remain single is not an indication your marriage is bad.
The indication that your marriage is bad is that you insinuated you had to explain to your husband that you deserve respect. And you flat out said that the dog gives you more emotional support. That.... sounds bad.
These internet randos (including me) are not jumping to this conclusion based on nothing.
That's something nearly every single woman has had to do within a marriage, and it has to do with societal conditioning of men, not character defect.
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I highly doubt "nearly every single woman" has had to do that, at least when considering those currently in marriage. I didn't have to 15 years ago. My mother SHOULD have (but didn't) 45 years ago. So I guess if we're considering the entirety of human history then I concede it's nearly every single woman.
It would be an interesting social poll to see how that question is answered based on how many years of marriage have been lived through.
For me it was early on, when he didn't seem to grasp that using my things and not putting them back where they belong is disrespectful. Later on, it was his tone under stress and his expectation that I would do things without clearing it with me first, like host his family for holidays.
Respect is broad, and you likely have had to without categorizing it as a respect issue. But it's exceedingly common.
Have you never had to ask a loved one to put the colander back in the same cabinet, or not to raise their voice when they're upset about something they are recounting to you, or to put the toilet seat back down, or to take the trash out when they see it's full, or to put the remote back in the same place each time?
These are all issues with, at their core, respect and consideration. And they've been present on some level in every relationship I've ever had of any form in my 46 years.
People really like to appear a certain way online. It's weird.
> Men seem to be having a very hard time understanding that they are no longer competing with each other, they are competing with the lives we can give ourselves.
Framing it as a competition seems rather dystopian.
Lol. It's not a "loving relationship" during the competition stage. Good lord.
Men previously competed with other men for our attention and consideration, using mostly their resources and family reputations to overcome other male competitors.
Then social mobility became more common and women gained more rights. We were no longer outright property, but we were still rendered reliant on men for financial support. Now men had to incorporate things like looks, personality, and socially appropriate affection into their competition with other men.
Now women are no longer reliant on men for things like access to a bank account or the ability to obtain housing. So women's own preferences become front and center stage in the competition instead of having to take a back seat to basic survival.
This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. It's pretty obvious to anyone who is educated on history.
The competition comes long before there is anything remotely resembling "love" at play.
So you're glad to enter relationships that make your life harder and less enjoyable? You prefer that?
Because telling men they need to bring something to the table that makes our lives better, and to the vast majority of us, that means emotional intelligence and regulation, emotional support, and patterns of behavior that do not result in us having extra labor to do? That's just having standards, ma'am.
You go suffer and do you. But I'm not interested in teaching a grown man how to reciprocate, take initiative, show basic respect and pick up his own damn socks. If I want another child to raise I have a uterus.
Aha! You are probably right in that respect especially as a response to the person saying partners are in competition with each other's priorities. Abundance and generosity paradigms are hard to understand for people living in a context of fear.
I married at 22 and got divorced at 29. I’ve been single for 15 years.
For me, it’s less about the idea that a relationship would somehow make my life less enjoyable, but that actively looking for a relationship did. Dating for the purpose of finding a partner can become all consuming. I have so many things I’d rather expend energy on.
My mom never dated or remarried after her divorce from my dad. My aunt never married at all. Another aunt didn’t marry until she was in her 60s. I see that similar sentiment in them. They were open to the possibility but they were not going to go out of their way to find a man.
I'd very much like to know the stats around women who actively choose to be long term single as outlined in this article, women who very much want a partner and children but can't find it and especially the group who do want a partner but have pretty much given up on modern dating and men and are working towards being in the first group.
Tbf I'd imagine the three groups are one and the same. I want a partner, not a child. It's not that I can't get a partner, it's that the expected labour in my culture lays on the woman to accept that her husband will never cook, clean, care about your interests, children or life outside of being his wife. Did that for 11 years, no real interest in doing it again. That's the biggest reason a lot of women I know have gone off the idea of getting married and having kids, they want those things but want an equal partnership. They can't find one so they choose not to settle for less, and are content to be alone vs in a shitty relationship.
I agree with you. I was never able to find an equal partner in the long term relationships I had, i gave up on dating since the “prize” of dating would be an unequal relationship that drains me, not to mention all the other frustrations and risk of dating, and I’m perfectly happy to remain unmarried and childfree for life. So I see myself in each category, for the reasons you outlined.
But to me that's categorically such a different thing, a totally different scenario to the women in this article. I think on a societal level we really need to understand these nuances and imo these three quite distinct groups.
I also feel like those are just stages of the same woman’s life. I would love to have a husband and children, but I’ve never found a man who I think would be a good husband or parent. So I am fine with being single. I think many millennial women (including myself) spent their early adult years in unfulfilling relationships and then decided it’s better to be alone than disrespected. I saw my mother disrespected by my father for decades. I don’t want that. I was barely single at all in my 20s, and I’ve been single for all of my 30s because I have standards of how I want to be treated. Men refuse to meet these very basic standards of respect, so I will continue to be single.
I’m not sure what the nuance is, but I do think the majority of girls and women still grow up being coached into thinking that making men the center of their world is a priority. That being married is preferable to being single. That a woman’s ultimate purpose is to have kids. I think if you’re observant and you date men, after a while you realize “hey this is actually a bad deal for women” and you will essentially learn that not everyone will get what they want or what they think they wanted and simply choose to exist outside of that.
There was a post in the womenover40 subreddit the other day where a woman was describing how her husband has never once gotten her a meaningful gift in their marriage despite her making it clear to him recently that it mattered to her before an upcoming birthday (or maybe anniversary? can’t remember which holiday). The post also generally talked about how she felt unhappy and small in the relationship. Instead of encouraging her to reevaluate the relationship, the VAST majority of the top comments were telling her to stop having any expectations of her husband in their relationship. How devastating that women feel that’s a better alternative than being single and happy.
I was born in 1987 and I definitely received this messaging, directly from my mother. I think boomer women are extremely male centered and did pass this on. Boomer parents are definitely the type to “stay together for the kids” and model a horrible relationship. School had zero influence on what I think about relationships. If anything, I would say school made me more hyper aware of the societal expectations to have a boyfriend and date.
I grew up in the same time and the messages I received were mixed. Schools were absolutely sending the message you express, but popular media for girls was still heavily about getting a man, from Disney princesses to Cosmopolitan magazine.
Yes, this is probably a nearly ubiquitous experience for all us USA 90s girls. I got the extra whammy of religion telling me to "be in the world but DON'T be like them! Be a wife and mother and you'll be so much happier than these worldly women who get greedy and go after their own desires! That's the devil!"
Whew... what a load of shit it was!!!
It's refreshing that THIS article we're discussing about celebrating being a woman and being single is actually from Cosmopolitan! And you're right that back then SO much of Cosmo was about making yourself appealing to men.
I guess I don't see the groups as having much distinction if it all comes back to decentering the importance of a romantic relationship with a man. take Megan from the article who decided to use a sperm donor to conceive as she didn't see a man as a necessary part of parenthood, but was told by family members that she and her child wouldn't be a proper family without a father. So even though Megan said relationships never appealed to her, and her decision is different from mine, it still comes back to the idea of decentering men, that our mothers, grandmothers etc didn't have the luxury to make this autonomous choice to use a sperm donor, and to live life by her own terms, not bending her wants to fit "the man of the house".
I get what you mean, but I think the motivations and readings between my categories are quite different and I think worth trying to pull apart further.
Like if that 49% of single women are all staunch feminists and have no interest in men in their lives that's cool but it's very different if 30% of those women do want a partner but can't find one/have given up/don't think it's worth it.
I’m not saying that there aren’t women who genuinely never want a partner in their lives and protect their singleness their entire adult lives. But that’s not a common human trait. Most “staunch feminists” who enjoy their single lives, including me, wouldn’t shut out the idea of a wonderful partner who adds to that life, but they’re not going to put up with something lesser than that just to be married. Finding someone who is a true, loving partner isn’t easy, so it’s a good thing that women have options now for happy, fulfilling lives if that never happens to come around.
I think there’s movement between the groups though, at least in my experience, so it seems like it would be hard to get stats on. Or do you mean women who consistently fall into one of those groups throughout their lives?
Yeah it was definitely a rhetorical question, I don't think it's possible to get actual stats on them. But I do think they're distinct and worth pulling apart a bit more.
I am thinking of three of my single girlfriends. Two are divorced. One of them really has no interest in dating and is very happy by herself. Another one likes to date a lot, but seems to have a healthy outlook about it - like if it happens, it happens. My third friend has never been married and I think there is more of an urgency for her because she really wants to experience at least a long-term partner as she hasn’t had one (she was very career focused and in medical school and internships for a lot of of her 20s. ) sadly I see a lot of desperation in her as she goes on online dates probably four or five times a week and has gotten very bitter about it but she keeps soldiering on. I don’t know how she does it! These women are all between the ages of 40 and 45 and I see their approach to men/dating as very different like what you’re saying. I think the ones who have been married can at least feel like they’ve had that experience whereas the one who hasn’t really has a fear of missing out on that partnership.
I think there are distinct groups. I have had two long-term relationships and have zero interest in ever having one again. For me, being single is an active and conscious choice. It is not because I’ve given up hope on finding a partner. I find single life happier and more fulfilling.
I would happily be in a relationship if I found one that brought me happiness. But I don’t need one. I have friends and family and a good job and money and a dog. I don’t also need a man unless he brings something I’m missing. The right one would, but “any man” is pointless.
My husband says something similar. He has very few male friends because many men he meets are awful (to women and to “lower status” men) or totally self-absorbed.
Is it weird that I don’t feel like I have to please my husband? I don’t dress for him, I don’t wear makeup for him (and haven’t worn any at all since Covid), I don’t cook for him. He does all the cooking, actually. I decorated the house to my aesthetic because he doesn’t care as much about that kind of thing. I keep the thermostat to where I am comfortable. When he wants to do things I don’t want to do, I politely decline. I just don’t go and vice versa.
We have kids so I do have responsibilities to them. They are teens though, so even those demands have been dwindling over time as they’ve become more independent and can drive themselves places. The first one is off to college next year. As soon as he’s off, I’m booting my husband downstairs to his bedroom so I too can starfish to my heart’s desire, lol.
But in general, my husband doesn’t require too much of my time or attention or “cramp my style.” And we’re coming up on 21 years together, still happy imo. What do people mean when they say this? Do they assume you have to be joined at the hip to be married? I don’t really get it.
Thanks for the well wishes and I agree to a certain extent but I also don’t think it is some unicorn relationship either. I’ve been thinking about it since this became such a huge topic in the media and I think what helped me the most was seeing my parents model a fairly egalitarian relationship for the 80s and 90s. My father was a father fighter who worked a 24 hr shift every three days. That meant he was home the other two. My mom worked in an office about 45 min away 5 days a week. So I grew up seeing him (and some of my friends’ dads) driving carpool, making dinner, grocery shopping, cleaning, etc. etc.
When I entered into my first serious relationship with a man (with my eventual husband), I never centered him in the first place because I didn’t know I was “supposed to.” We were both grad students, both very busy, both making the same amount of money. Why should I do more cleaning and cooking? Just because I am the girl? Uh, no 😂 My husband is a competent, responsible adult and I treat him like one. Here are some things I have never once done for him in my life: pick out his clothes, iron his clothes, buy him a present to give to someone else, wrap the presents he bought to give to someone else, manage is social life, manage his relationships with his own friends and family, pack his lunch, pack his suitcase (especially for a trip we are not going on together), make dr appointments for him. If he asked me to do any of this, I think my first response would have been a puzzled laugh? Pack your suitcase for you? Like you are a 12 yo going to summer camp for the first time??? What on earth. You know much better what you need for a business trip than I do. Or you should anyway.
My advice to any young women who are reading this and would like to be married to an equal partner: start as you mean to go on. Don’t baby him. Don’t “play house,” even if it seems fun at the time. Don’t do favors that you don’t want to be doing for the rest of your life (especially after you have kids). Treat him like the capable adult he is. And if he refuses to be one, there’s your answer. No one wants to mother their romantic partner. That’s not attractive in any way shape or form.
Of course I do but they’re not all unhappy for this specific reason. There are a lot of reasons why a marriage or longterm relationship might fail. I also know a lot of happy couples.
We all know that. The point is not settling for relationships where your partner makes your life a chore, of which there are millions of examples. Almost everyone would be delighted to meet someone where you uplift each other and can be your true selves around, and I’m not sure why you think people who have stopped dating weren’t trying to find that.
>Your partner should ideally be the person you have to least "put your mask on" around. They should be someone who vibes with the natural you.
Yes I totally agree! My husband feels like my safe place, he feels like home to me. We can 100% be our most authentic selves with each other (to give you an example, we often made up silly songs about our babies and we’d go around the house singing to them. Now we do it about our dog. I would never do this in front of someone else, lol). He’s my favorite person, basically, and I feel incredibly lucky to have had him in my life as long as I have.
When I go on social media, I often see discussion back and forth about “what do men/women bring to the table.” And I wonder: when did relationships get so transactional? What happened to just enjoying the time you spend together? Emotional intimacy, physical intimacy, jokes, laughter, FUN. No one brings those things up on social media, perhaps because they are so intangible and personal as to be almost impossible to explain. But ime and imo, if that baseline compatibility and pleasure in each other’s company isn’t there, you have to ask yourself what are you are you even doing besides wasting your own time? You need to enjoy and respect each other as people. That’s the most important, fundamental thing. And none of that means dressing up, wearing makeup, putting his needs first, cooking, cleaning, or abnegating yourself.
From my anecdotal experience (my friends), women don’t start soured to relationships. We all are optimistic and have that excited crush feeling at first. When it usually falls apart is when they begin to live with their partners and have to manage households. Some couples fell into a division of labor that made sense for them, some did not. Most critically, the couples that didn’t stay together was due to the woman feeling like the guy didn’t love her enough to pick up after himself. He had bought into the idea that your spouse should be the person you feel least ‘buttoned up’ around, so to speak, but interpreted it to mean he didn’t have to make an effort for her anymore.
I think men of our age (millennials) are still of this mindset, though it isn’t all a lost cause. I heard of mutual acquaintances whose husbands are really dropping the ball when their wives stopped doing the delegating/social admin for them especially with regard to kids. When dad is caring for the kids, mom does not fuss about planning an itinerary or meals for them if she’s not part of the plans. It’s pretty wild how many of these guys still text their wives to ask what the food plan is even though she isn’t with them for that meal. And while I take a lot of Reddit with a grain of salt, I suspect this dynamic sadly isn’t as out of date as many (mostly women who were convinced that their partners were better than the previous generation) believe.
>It’s pretty wild how many of these guys still text their wives to ask what the food plan is even though she isn’t with them for that meal.
I see this stuff too and I’m always curious about how the longer interaction plays out.
If my husband texted this to me, I’d say “I don’t know what’s in the fridge or pantry right now?”
His response. “Nothing.”
Mine “ok you’ll have to go to the grocery store then. Make sure you pick up some fruit and veggies too.”
I do understand there are some POS men out there who wouldn’t go to the grocery store. But I think some can be shamed into it? We need to bring back shame as a motivator imo. “What do you mean you have the kids McDonald’s 3 nights in a row? Do you want them to develop health problems and become picky eaters??” And so on. At least, that’s how I’d handle it.
For context: I think the women who are choosing to not settle, especially the divorced ones, are not willing to bother with men who need this conversation.
We bought into the ‘oh we just need to teach/shame them to do it’ mentality regarding partners. And then those guys went full weaponized incompetence.
I’m not saying that partners can’t/shouldn’t learn from each other, but I genuinely wonder how often it is that a man has to ‘teach’ his wife how/what to feed herself/the kids without an egregious age gap between them. I suspect not nearly the rate it is for women with men, but I’ll be glad to be proven wrong.
Even in this imagination of an interaction you’re still doling out chores like a mother. Why would a husband need to be told to go to the grocery store or remember to buy produce? An actual partnership would be your husband saying, “hey, pantry is empty, I’m going to the grocery store, here’s the grocery list, do you want to add anything?”
Well my husband would never actually do this. He is a strong believer in healthy eating and nutrition for our children. Like I said, he actually does the vast majority of cooking and grocery shopping in our family.
But my larger point is that, in any of these interactions that women typically post about, I always wonder what they say to them and then what the husbands say back. For me, it just wouldn’t end at him making a request. It would end in me telling him to be an adult and take care of it and stop bothering me at work.
For example. One thing I often see women post about is that they do the grocery shopping because they can’t “trust” their husbands to do it! Either they’ll buy a ton of crap and waste money or buy the wrong things. I just can’t envision this because if it happened to me, I’d tell him to go back and buy the milk, eggs, and other staples we need. Like what do you mean, you couldn’t find the eggs?! Ask someone who works there for help. What do you mean that you bought Cheetos and beer instead of milk? Go back and buy the milk! It’s not rocket science. How is it that you’re able to do XYZ hard thing at work yet can’t complete a simple grocery store run?
In response to your larger point, it sounds like women are starting to choose to respond by not having a husband or partner that they have to handhold through basic household chores in the first place. In your example of how to respond you still end up having to have a conversation with an adult man about how half-assing grocery shopping is not acceptable. Many women don’t want to have to teach basic life skills to an adult man when his parents/society should have already taught him. Basically it’s not a wife’s responsibility to teach her husband how to live, and while many wives enable their husbands, I don’t necessarily blame other women with whatever their response is to their husband’s weaponized incompetence.
You’re assuming you will have to though. I’ve been trying to think about what I’ve had to coach my husband through and the only thing I can think of was partially my own fault. For context, this was after we had our first baby in 2008. At the time, drs and nurses were still fanatical about “breast is best” so I was determined to breast feed for at least 4 months so he’d get the supposed benefits being touted. Because of this, I had this dumb idea that I should let him sleep since I was on mat leave and he wasn’t. Anyway, after 4 months, we had to have a convo in which I explained that I needed more help and could not go on like this or I would have a nervous breakdown.
To his credit, he had no issue with switching to formula and splitting the night shift with me. He’d take the first one, feed the baby when he went to bed around 12, then I’d handle any wake ups after that. We did this from day 1 with our 2 subsequent children.
I really have no complaints about him when it comes to childcare, housework, holidays, etc. He’s been an excellent partner and right there in the trenches with me when it comes to the kids.
As far as the examples I posted about though. YMMV but for me, if I had a lot of natural compatibility with a person and I sensed that I could successfully teach him how to be a better partner to me (as I did with my husband after we had our first child), I’d be willing to do it. It’s expected that couples go through ups and downs. That’s kind of the point - you have a partner you’re “doing life” with. Having to teach a person to do a grocery run is the price you might pay for nights cuddling on the couch while you watch tv or having him to vent to about work problems etc. etc.
I hear what you are saying, but this is the exact mentality that led to my friend marrying a manchild in the first place and essentially winding up with two children after she gave birth to their child. The belief that she wasn’t communicating enough or properly, and focusing on the positives, etc, that relationships were work and this type of friction was inevitable.
Well eventually he no longer fulfilled the positives she clung to. He never stood by her when his parents made unreasonable demands (expecting them to host them for a weekend with only as much warning as it took to drive down), and couldn’t even respect her concerns when it came to their child’s safety.
The problem is also that the default responses are like yours, wondering if the woman did enough to resolve the issue or teach him the way to be a better partner. And also simultaneously being told not all men are like this, etc. I think by the time these grievances are being aired, women have likely made multiple attempts to try and resolve this (as in the case of my friends, none of them have posted to Reddit seeking advice so it’s likely underrepresented here).
Again, it’s not bad to try to work through disagreements, etc, but you can tell when someone is working with you versus doing the bare minimum or even maliciously complying so they eventually stop being ‘nagged.’ You can sense it with coworkers, students, friends, etc. but for some reason, despite statistics that show women still take on much of the domestic work and management compared to men, we tend to have skepticism that women aren’t communicating these needs properly and not that men aren’t stepping up to close a well studied and published gap.
This is well said. There’s a chemistry with someone that can make life richer. And that adds a lot of value beyond adult skill based attributes that people are often complaining that their partners don’t meet.
My husband is a great person to be around. Along with being a functional adult who can cook, he’s great company and up for new things. We can have the best day traveling around in Portugal or just staying in bed all day. We also sing songs to the dog. He keeps me grounded and reminds me to be proud of myself. I think he would be extremely hard to replace if there’s ever a period without him so I wouldn’t bother to look for someone else. And that’s because that chemistry is so rare.
Absolutely second this. I'm autistic, so any time I go anywhere or do anything, I have to mask. The one exception is with my partners. I love them specifically because I can just be my silly self and be accepted for who I am rather than who I'm supposed to be. While I can definitely appreciate the benefits of being single, there is also something delightful about having at least one person who is happy to be around you as you are, without judgement, and with love.
I don’t think that’s weird. It’s the same with my boyfriend- he cleans, cooks, and is so good at fixing things. We don’t have kids and don’t want them, but otherwise your situation sounds a lot like mine. Which is great! We respect each other as two individuals on a team. One thing I love the most about our partnership is that neither of us has lost ourselves. We root for each other and encourage each other, we have our differences, and we love the hell out of each other. I feel so beyond lucky because I feel like my relationship is a white whale.
This is the norm. I wake up and want to do things for my partner, not because I feel obliged or have to but because I love giving love to them and love seeing how they receive it.
I think it's a weird concept to people with a strong self orientation or lacking generosity, I suspect based on trauma in their upbringing.
Sigh. Dating is so heavily commodified. To pursue a partner is essentially to pursue an item being marketed to you now. Men and women are purchased, compared to one another, and thrown away if they aren't checking all of the boxes. Today's relationships just have such a lack of "oomph", totally missing an it factor. It's rare that I see a man and a woman who are both totally bringing it in terms of charm, good looks, health, talents, etc. Everyone feels so unsure of themselves and relationships just look totally unstimulating. Lots of settling going on - and nobody needs to choose between settling and being alone forever.
I feel for the women in this position and understand, but I'm pissed that many women may be missing out on the enrapturing experience of being in a truly fulfilling relationship with an incredible man.
Is it? Or is yours a failure to understand that community and family can still exist outside of Western marriage customs. See the Mosuo people, for instance.
I've seen some of your other comments here. I don't think you're understanding the concept and I say that honestly and nonjudgmental.
But you are also standing firm and not taking in anything being said to you in response which would help you understand what we (women choosing to stay single) are doing.
Women have plenty of relationships. We are not experiencing a "loneliness epidemic". We seek out, create, and nurture community.
Men, however, have been socialized to rely on women for basically all social and emotional labor. They, not as a monolith but generally, do not possess the skills or emotional intelligence to create lasting relationships outside of, frankly, extractive romantic partnerships.
It is easier, and more fulfilling, to choose to remain single, when you have a true community that you are a member of.
Men now find themselves in a transitory era: Either adapt and develop the emotional and relational skills required to become attractive, not extractive, romantic partners, or continue to whine about it and fail to develop these skills and find themselves unable to attract and retain long term romantic partners.
No, corporations have not replaced husbands. Men have refused to level up in the ways they are definitely able to without any real hurdle, whereas women had no choice but to do this and for decades with immense hurdles (lack of access to credit, mortgages, pay gaps, etc.) So why would women now lower their already low bar standards just to have a husband?
Some women are lonely, it's true. But they no longer have to settle for just anyone. Wanting a family is normal and fine, but fewer women are willing to put up with the tremendous headaches and risks that come with that.
No, the working theory is that corporations and government have slowly replaced the family unit and community spaces and relationships is what I'm saying.
Oh I'm sure if you've never heard the theory that it feels uncomfortable and you would naturally resist for ego coherence!
>Evidence suggests that increasing commercialization by corporations and the expansion of the state have significantly altered, rather than completely replaced, traditional community and family structures. Corporate, state-driven, and technological factors now fill roles previously held by local communities, leading to weaker social bonds and less time for family.
You so, so desperately want this to be the reason women are not choosing to get married, which is different than what that says, and it also doesn't apply to just women. I am sorry if no one has picked you yet, but there are probably reasons for that beyond your right wing talking points about women.
Shutomei | 9 hours ago
This has been a pretty common practice in Japan because of mother-in-law / in-law culture/abuse. It was so bad during the bubble and post-bubble era that women opted out of marriage since there was a happier road of staying at home, spending all your money on yourself and taking care of your parents.
I have several cousins (male and female) who never married because they saw no point to it. My female cousin opted out of marriage and just heads a 3-story home with herself and my aunties (both in their 80s). They travel the country watching boy bands and going to hot springs to eat crab. Happy life.
pettsvaldo | 9 hours ago
What a boss.
IKnowAllSeven | 8 hours ago
I adore my aunties! And my mom. My mother in law is actually pretty rad too. Point being, I would love to hang with them into our older years.
Shutomei | 8 hours ago
We spent a few weeks in Japan this winter. My husband and I hung out and traveled with my aunties, and we had the best time. I think they're getting ready to enter the lottery for another boy band tour.
One aunt, who is my mother's younger sister, has been married twice. Both husbands were just awful. My aunt is quite attractive, and my eldest uncle said her man meter was broken (it was). He tore down the home and offered to build her an apartment in the current home, on the condition that she wouldn't marry anymore. She accepted it, and has been extremely happy these past 40 years.
mishulyia | 8 hours ago
Dream life!
readingwritingreefer | 4 hours ago
I was reading through US census data the other day and thought these statistics was super interesting;
In 2022, about 57 percent of men and 55 percent of women aged 18-24 lived in their parents’ home, compared to 52 percent of men and 35 percent of women that age in 1960.
About 47 percent of households were married-couple households in 2022, down from 71 percent in 1970.
I’m guessing the difference is that young women here feel the same way about staying home with parents instead of getting married.
PrincessPlastilina | 51 minutes ago
I genuinely don’t understand why women still think they need marriage in this day and age. It’s too much sacrifice and work for the promise of a mediocre relationship. You have to put up with a man’s flaws, his conscious and unconscious misogyny, the in laws, split all the bills, have less money for yourself, do more jobs around the house, have kids, be the primary caregiver, burnout, lose yourself.
Women should understand that we don’t need men for survival these days. Don’t tie yourself to a mediocre life just because you’re obsessed with romance and love. Unless you meet someone genuinely amazing who makes your life so much better and who adores you, please skip this chapter. A peaceful life and a regulated nervous system are priceless. Men rarely offer that. And don’t marry down 😭
pantone13-0752 | 25 minutes ago
Who's marrying for survival these days? I think most Western middle class women understand that we don't need men to survive. I agree that you should only commit to somebody who's worth it (I'm not sure about the marrying down bit, which seems a bit classist...) but there absolutely are men who are amazing and who make their partner's lives better. I am married to one. As far as I can tell, most of my female friends are also happier for having their partners in their lives.
Society often sets low standards for men in the domestic arena, but I'm not sure going the other way and declaring the whole entreprise pointless is any better. Hold men to high standards and believe they can achieve them!
OpheliaLives7 | an hour ago
Living the dream!
IKnowAllSeven | 10 hours ago
Both divorced and widowed women are less likely to remarry than their male counterparts. So, even women who have spent significant time partnered are ALSO later on choosing to remain single, though with widowed women there is also a smaller pool of men of similar age.
I will sing the praises of my husband all day long. He’s good people, a good partner, I’m so very glad he’s in my life. But, assuming I live longer than him, which is statistically likely, I wouldn’t pursue another romantic relationship. Point being that even living for decades with a good to great relationship, a single life has very strong appeal.
Exotic-Marketing-326 | 9 hours ago
imo yeah totally get it, single life has a different freedom. plus, finding someone great once feels like enough tbh js
grumpy__g | 9 hours ago
I told my husband that if we divorced, I wouldn’t marry again. I played the game once. No need to do it again. I will never understand men who marry, have kids and then marry again to have more kids.
likeomfgreally | 7 hours ago
I tell my husband all the time, he’ll be the only man to call himself my husband. when this ends in either divorce or death, I’m not doing this again. Will I have a Rolodex of “friends”? Maybe. But im not commingling finances or spending my time being a caretaker (my descendants live long). I’m going to devote my life to my kids, extended family, community, and myself. I live in a HCOL, so I’ll prob still put some effort in looking cute and young but for my fam and myself.
grumpy__g | 5 hours ago
Would it change if you weren’t living in a HCOL?
likeomfgreally | 5 hours ago
I guess not. I do feel that there’s more pressure to looking fit and young in areas of HCOL, which is why I put it there as a reason why I might be more vain than others (of course people from non-HCOL can be just as vain or more). Regardless, my point is to emphasize that I still want to look young and fit for myself but not to attract a husband and play house.
grumpy__g | 2 hours ago
I understand.
I wish you all of happiness.
techaaron | 8 hours ago
Pretty simple. Boys and men are socially conditioned to be providers and find their value in that dynamic. Without it many men are purposeless.
Women haven't gotten that message since the sexual revolution of the 1960s. Freedom baby!
raptorjaws | 7 hours ago
it couldn't be that men just disproportionally benefit from being partnered with kids in a patriarchal society. it's just the mindless social conditioning they are helpless to resist.
iocheaira | 7 hours ago
The day before my grandma’s funeral, my grandad said he was going to have to “get on ChristianMingle to find someone to do the ironing”. He wasn’t kidding
haloarh | 6 hours ago
I know this is an anecdotal, but every widowed man I've met was remarried within 18 months of his wife's death.
Fumquat | 6 hours ago
Jesus. I thought men moved on quickly because they got horny more often… turns out some will do anything to avoid a bit of housework.
techaaron | 6 hours ago
Yes, I agree, exactly as I said 😋
grumpy__g | 7 hours ago
You know that men can emancipate too, right?
haloarh | 6 hours ago
Nah, most men are just looking for a nurse with a purse or a bang maid, and more women have realized that we don't get anything out of that, so we just rather stay single.
techaaron | 6 hours ago
lol how you doin?
JaneEyrewasHere | 8 hours ago
Same. We met in college so I’ve been partnered my entire adult life (I’m 48). I love him and I wouldn’t change being with him but I’m not interested in pursuing another partnership if he dies first.
weak_shimmer | 7 hours ago
Yeah, I am very happy in my marriage, but I wouldn't roll the dice again.
bubblegumdavid | 6 hours ago
Yeah I’ve often had this thought.
I love my husband, we met young and dated other people first, but at the end of the day we both found that people just didn’t meet the standard set by how well we get along. He is the only person’s company I am never sick of.
If something happens to him, I know I likely would never want to live with or marry someone else.
The idea of dating around meeting weirdos when I’ve had a marriage that suits us effortlessly sounds irritating and exhausting.
tsh87 | 5 hours ago
Same.
My husband is great and if anything happened to him I would never expect to get that lucky a second time around.
On top of that, we met very young so I've never lived an adult solo life and exploring that feels a lot more exciting that being married again.
TheDaveStrider | 7 hours ago
I mean, I have widowed family members, and they are not remarrying for reasons of, I guess, loyalty to their late spouse. so that is also a factor in those cases
Myobatrachidae | 9 hours ago
I'm just glad it's slowly becoming more socially acceptable to remain single than be in a shit relationship.
gingiberiblue | 8 hours ago
Men seem to be having a very hard time understanding that they are no longer competing with each other, they are competing with the lives we can give ourselves. And in many situations, the lives we can give ourselves far outclass any life a man could give us.
Pure autonomy is golden, and even in the best relationship with a man you have to cede some.
I've been married for 20 years but if I could go back and make different choices I would never have married at all. There is nothing a marriage with today's men brings that I would sacrifice my peace and stability for. I literally get more comprehensive emotional support from my dog, and I've never had to explain to my dog that I deserve respect.
derpferd | 8 hours ago
As a man, when I read complaints about this and the complaint is that this is the fault of feminism, I think, "Yeah, perhaps it." Or a progressive society that means that women no longer need to find a man in order to have sanctuary or income or a home.
Women have an indepence today that they didn't 40 or 50 years ago.
If that progress means that it's no longer so easy to find a woman willing to give herself over to you purely because you hold all the cards, then perhaps you need to find some other reasons someone might want you.
And perhaps then consider what it is you're lacking if you can't find a partner because you can't coax her with what she already has
horseradishstalker | 2 hours ago
The suicide rate among married women in 1950 was 22.1 per 100k. Today it is 6.9 per 100k.
After the passage of no-fault divorce in 1970s and 1980s, suicide rates dropped 20%, there was a 10% decline in women murdered by their partners, and rates of other kinds of domestic violence against women dropped 30%.
There is a reason that White Christian nationalists won’t gain traction with women in general by attempting to roll back the clock. They are the only ones who want to go back to that.
derpferd | an hour ago
Again, it's something where I go, "Ok, so you're aggrieved with feminism and a progressive society. So what's the better alternative you can point to?
And does that better alternative require women losing out on freedom and independence?
If that's the better alternative, then who's it better for?"
I know that these people don't have the depths of introspection to ask these questions, much less make the effort for an answer that will provoke sympathy for anything outside their interests or their prejudice.
But I do.
DyllCallihan3333 | 8 hours ago
Amen, Sister!
Lysmerry | 7 hours ago
Are you tempted to leave your marriage?
gingiberiblue | 6 hours ago
Why would you ask that? Or assume it?
We all have things we would do differently in hindsight. It does not mean the present should be discarded or placed in upheaval.
Lysmerry | 5 hours ago
I didn’t assume it which is why I asked. I realize it’s a lot more complex, and I didn’t know if this was coming from someone who was planning divorce or who was content.
Smooth_Instruction11 | 52 minutes ago
I think I’m beginning to see why the dog gives you less issues
TheDaveStrider | 7 hours ago
no offense but it kind of sounds like you'd be happier getting a divorce
gingiberiblue | 6 hours ago
lol. Good lord some people are wild. No, I would not "be happier" getting a divorce. My husband and I built a family, and that family is a wonderful thing. Our finances are pretty terminally linked.
Noting that given the choice all over again, given the experience i have now, that I would not have married is not an indication that my marriage is bad. It is recognition that marriage is an imperfect vessel to hold anyone, and that I'd have personally preferred not to have my finances linked with any other human and would have preferred to choose my own destiny to a greater degree.
But really, it's like some of y'all don't understand nuance at all.
TheDiceBlesser | 4 hours ago
You're right of course, saying that you would have chosen to remain single is not an indication your marriage is bad.
The indication that your marriage is bad is that you insinuated you had to explain to your husband that you deserve respect. And you flat out said that the dog gives you more emotional support. That.... sounds bad.
These internet randos (including me) are not jumping to this conclusion based on nothing.
gingiberiblue | 4 hours ago
That's something nearly every single woman has had to do within a marriage, and it has to do with societal conditioning of men, not character defect. .
TheDiceBlesser | 3 hours ago
I highly doubt "nearly every single woman" has had to do that, at least when considering those currently in marriage. I didn't have to 15 years ago. My mother SHOULD have (but didn't) 45 years ago. So I guess if we're considering the entirety of human history then I concede it's nearly every single woman.
It would be an interesting social poll to see how that question is answered based on how many years of marriage have been lived through.
gingiberiblue | 3 hours ago
For me it was early on, when he didn't seem to grasp that using my things and not putting them back where they belong is disrespectful. Later on, it was his tone under stress and his expectation that I would do things without clearing it with me first, like host his family for holidays.
Respect is broad, and you likely have had to without categorizing it as a respect issue. But it's exceedingly common.
TheDaveStrider | 6 minutes ago
I do not have to do that with my boyfriend
gingiberiblue | 3 minutes ago
Have you never had to ask a loved one to put the colander back in the same cabinet, or not to raise their voice when they're upset about something they are recounting to you, or to put the toilet seat back down, or to take the trash out when they see it's full, or to put the remote back in the same place each time?
These are all issues with, at their core, respect and consideration. And they've been present on some level in every relationship I've ever had of any form in my 46 years.
People really like to appear a certain way online. It's weird.
techaaron | 8 hours ago
> Men seem to be having a very hard time understanding that they are no longer competing with each other, they are competing with the lives we can give ourselves.
Framing it as a competition seems rather dystopian.
gingiberiblue | 8 hours ago
It's always been competition. They simply didn't have us as contenders in the past.
techaaron | 8 hours ago
I mean, I don't treat loving relationships as competition but do you boo ❤️
gingiberiblue | 7 hours ago
Lol. It's not a "loving relationship" during the competition stage. Good lord.
Men previously competed with other men for our attention and consideration, using mostly their resources and family reputations to overcome other male competitors.
Then social mobility became more common and women gained more rights. We were no longer outright property, but we were still rendered reliant on men for financial support. Now men had to incorporate things like looks, personality, and socially appropriate affection into their competition with other men.
Now women are no longer reliant on men for things like access to a bank account or the ability to obtain housing. So women's own preferences become front and center stage in the competition instead of having to take a back seat to basic survival.
This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. It's pretty obvious to anyone who is educated on history.
The competition comes long before there is anything remotely resembling "love" at play.
BaroqueGorgon | 6 hours ago
Yep, and even before that, they'd have to impress our parents and relatives.
'You want to marry our daughter? How much land and cattle do you have?'
techaaron | 6 hours ago
I think its really neat you're in a competition against potential partners and that works for you and you enjoy it and it makes you happy!
Definitely glad I'm not lmfao
gingiberiblue | 6 hours ago
So you're glad to enter relationships that make your life harder and less enjoyable? You prefer that?
Because telling men they need to bring something to the table that makes our lives better, and to the vast majority of us, that means emotional intelligence and regulation, emotional support, and patterns of behavior that do not result in us having extra labor to do? That's just having standards, ma'am.
You go suffer and do you. But I'm not interested in teaching a grown man how to reciprocate, take initiative, show basic respect and pick up his own damn socks. If I want another child to raise I have a uterus.
techaaron | 5 hours ago
I've been filled with an abundance of people in my life willing to give and receive love. Never needed to compete.
If you haven't I can see why choosing to be An Isolate would be preferable.
Cheers!
TheDeansofQarth | 4 hours ago
Reading comprehension really just isn't your strong suit, is it?
SurferGurl | 4 hours ago
Nah. He just wanted to make it all about him.
techaaron | 4 hours ago
Nah. You?
lekker-boterham | 4 hours ago
There’s something wrong with you lol
techaaron | 4 hours ago
Aha! You are probably right in that respect especially as a response to the person saying partners are in competition with each other's priorities. Abundance and generosity paradigms are hard to understand for people living in a context of fear.
Gave me the ick for sure. 💓
LowStrike5558 | 5 hours ago
I married at 22 and got divorced at 29. I’ve been single for 15 years.
For me, it’s less about the idea that a relationship would somehow make my life less enjoyable, but that actively looking for a relationship did. Dating for the purpose of finding a partner can become all consuming. I have so many things I’d rather expend energy on.
My mom never dated or remarried after her divorce from my dad. My aunt never married at all. Another aunt didn’t marry until she was in her 60s. I see that similar sentiment in them. They were open to the possibility but they were not going to go out of their way to find a man.
loomfy | 10 hours ago
I'd very much like to know the stats around women who actively choose to be long term single as outlined in this article, women who very much want a partner and children but can't find it and especially the group who do want a partner but have pretty much given up on modern dating and men and are working towards being in the first group.
hisosih | 10 hours ago
Tbf I'd imagine the three groups are one and the same. I want a partner, not a child. It's not that I can't get a partner, it's that the expected labour in my culture lays on the woman to accept that her husband will never cook, clean, care about your interests, children or life outside of being his wife. Did that for 11 years, no real interest in doing it again. That's the biggest reason a lot of women I know have gone off the idea of getting married and having kids, they want those things but want an equal partnership. They can't find one so they choose not to settle for less, and are content to be alone vs in a shitty relationship.
Own-Emergency2166 | 8 hours ago
I agree with you. I was never able to find an equal partner in the long term relationships I had, i gave up on dating since the “prize” of dating would be an unequal relationship that drains me, not to mention all the other frustrations and risk of dating, and I’m perfectly happy to remain unmarried and childfree for life. So I see myself in each category, for the reasons you outlined.
loomfy | 10 hours ago
But to me that's categorically such a different thing, a totally different scenario to the women in this article. I think on a societal level we really need to understand these nuances and imo these three quite distinct groups.
FutureRealHousewife | 9 hours ago
I also feel like those are just stages of the same woman’s life. I would love to have a husband and children, but I’ve never found a man who I think would be a good husband or parent. So I am fine with being single. I think many millennial women (including myself) spent their early adult years in unfulfilling relationships and then decided it’s better to be alone than disrespected. I saw my mother disrespected by my father for decades. I don’t want that. I was barely single at all in my 20s, and I’ve been single for all of my 30s because I have standards of how I want to be treated. Men refuse to meet these very basic standards of respect, so I will continue to be single.
loomfy | 9 hours ago
I still think there's nuance there but I get what you mean. Most women I know are having the same experience.
FutureRealHousewife | 7 hours ago
I’m not sure what the nuance is, but I do think the majority of girls and women still grow up being coached into thinking that making men the center of their world is a priority. That being married is preferable to being single. That a woman’s ultimate purpose is to have kids. I think if you’re observant and you date men, after a while you realize “hey this is actually a bad deal for women” and you will essentially learn that not everyone will get what they want or what they think they wanted and simply choose to exist outside of that.
bigwhiteboardenergy | 6 hours ago
There was a post in the womenover40 subreddit the other day where a woman was describing how her husband has never once gotten her a meaningful gift in their marriage despite her making it clear to him recently that it mattered to her before an upcoming birthday (or maybe anniversary? can’t remember which holiday). The post also generally talked about how she felt unhappy and small in the relationship. Instead of encouraging her to reevaluate the relationship, the VAST majority of the top comments were telling her to stop having any expectations of her husband in their relationship. How devastating that women feel that’s a better alternative than being single and happy.
Fearless_Teacher3944 | 7 hours ago
Exactly on point
thepulloutmethod | 5 hours ago
I think this is true for our parents' generation but as a child of the 80s this was not at all the messaging we received in school in the 90s and 00s.
It was all about how women can do everything men can do, about women succeeding in school, sports, and work, etc.
FutureRealHousewife | 5 hours ago
I was born in 1987 and I definitely received this messaging, directly from my mother. I think boomer women are extremely male centered and did pass this on. Boomer parents are definitely the type to “stay together for the kids” and model a horrible relationship. School had zero influence on what I think about relationships. If anything, I would say school made me more hyper aware of the societal expectations to have a boyfriend and date.
thepulloutmethod | 5 hours ago
Fair enough. I was also born 1987 and had a much different experience.
your_mom_is_availabl | 5 hours ago
I grew up in the same time and the messages I received were mixed. Schools were absolutely sending the message you express, but popular media for girls was still heavily about getting a man, from Disney princesses to Cosmopolitan magazine.
TheDiceBlesser | 3 hours ago
Yes, this is probably a nearly ubiquitous experience for all us USA 90s girls. I got the extra whammy of religion telling me to "be in the world but DON'T be like them! Be a wife and mother and you'll be so much happier than these worldly women who get greedy and go after their own desires! That's the devil!"
Whew... what a load of shit it was!!!
It's refreshing that THIS article we're discussing about celebrating being a woman and being single is actually from Cosmopolitan! And you're right that back then SO much of Cosmo was about making yourself appealing to men.
hisosih | 9 hours ago
I guess I don't see the groups as having much distinction if it all comes back to decentering the importance of a romantic relationship with a man. take Megan from the article who decided to use a sperm donor to conceive as she didn't see a man as a necessary part of parenthood, but was told by family members that she and her child wouldn't be a proper family without a father. So even though Megan said relationships never appealed to her, and her decision is different from mine, it still comes back to the idea of decentering men, that our mothers, grandmothers etc didn't have the luxury to make this autonomous choice to use a sperm donor, and to live life by her own terms, not bending her wants to fit "the man of the house".
loomfy | 9 hours ago
I get what you mean, but I think the motivations and readings between my categories are quite different and I think worth trying to pull apart further.
Like if that 49% of single women are all staunch feminists and have no interest in men in their lives that's cool but it's very different if 30% of those women do want a partner but can't find one/have given up/don't think it's worth it.
hellocousinlarry | 6 hours ago
I’m not saying that there aren’t women who genuinely never want a partner in their lives and protect their singleness their entire adult lives. But that’s not a common human trait. Most “staunch feminists” who enjoy their single lives, including me, wouldn’t shut out the idea of a wonderful partner who adds to that life, but they’re not going to put up with something lesser than that just to be married. Finding someone who is a true, loving partner isn’t easy, so it’s a good thing that women have options now for happy, fulfilling lives if that never happens to come around.
totallyrococo | 9 hours ago
I think there’s movement between the groups though, at least in my experience, so it seems like it would be hard to get stats on. Or do you mean women who consistently fall into one of those groups throughout their lives?
loomfy | 9 hours ago
Yeah it was definitely a rhetorical question, I don't think it's possible to get actual stats on them. But I do think they're distinct and worth pulling apart a bit more.
tasteful_aardvark | 7 hours ago
I am thinking of three of my single girlfriends. Two are divorced. One of them really has no interest in dating and is very happy by herself. Another one likes to date a lot, but seems to have a healthy outlook about it - like if it happens, it happens. My third friend has never been married and I think there is more of an urgency for her because she really wants to experience at least a long-term partner as she hasn’t had one (she was very career focused and in medical school and internships for a lot of of her 20s. ) sadly I see a lot of desperation in her as she goes on online dates probably four or five times a week and has gotten very bitter about it but she keeps soldiering on. I don’t know how she does it! These women are all between the ages of 40 and 45 and I see their approach to men/dating as very different like what you’re saying. I think the ones who have been married can at least feel like they’ve had that experience whereas the one who hasn’t really has a fear of missing out on that partnership.
Kabexem | 7 hours ago
I think there are distinct groups. I have had two long-term relationships and have zero interest in ever having one again. For me, being single is an active and conscious choice. It is not because I’ve given up hope on finding a partner. I find single life happier and more fulfilling.
DocBEsq | 6 hours ago
There’s a lot of overlap.
I’m single (and have been for a while).
I would happily be in a relationship if I found one that brought me happiness. But I don’t need one. I have friends and family and a good job and money and a dog. I don’t also need a man unless he brings something I’m missing. The right one would, but “any man” is pointless.
Apprehensive-Log8333 | 8 hours ago
It's funny that I spent my 20s and 30s so worried I would "wind up alone." And now I am alone at 56, and I love it
pettsvaldo | 9 hours ago
If I were a woman and every man I met was like me, I would choose to be single also. It's so exhausting.
I certainly don't regard single women as desperate.
TreeSignificant9782 | 7 hours ago
My husband says something similar. He has very few male friends because many men he meets are awful (to women and to “lower status” men) or totally self-absorbed.
Smooth_Instruction11 | 9 hours ago
Slay
sourpatchkitties | 9 hours ago
LOL
pettsvaldo | 9 hours ago
Heh.
Dr__Pheonx | 9 hours ago
Wish someone told me sooner
Iheartthe1990s | 8 hours ago
Is it weird that I don’t feel like I have to please my husband? I don’t dress for him, I don’t wear makeup for him (and haven’t worn any at all since Covid), I don’t cook for him. He does all the cooking, actually. I decorated the house to my aesthetic because he doesn’t care as much about that kind of thing. I keep the thermostat to where I am comfortable. When he wants to do things I don’t want to do, I politely decline. I just don’t go and vice versa.
We have kids so I do have responsibilities to them. They are teens though, so even those demands have been dwindling over time as they’ve become more independent and can drive themselves places. The first one is off to college next year. As soon as he’s off, I’m booting my husband downstairs to his bedroom so I too can starfish to my heart’s desire, lol.
But in general, my husband doesn’t require too much of my time or attention or “cramp my style.” And we’re coming up on 21 years together, still happy imo. What do people mean when they say this? Do they assume you have to be joined at the hip to be married? I don’t really get it.
SunsApple | 7 hours ago
Happy you have such a great relationship! Obv people who are saying they prefer to be single did not have the same experience.
Iheartthe1990s | 6 hours ago
Thanks for the well wishes and I agree to a certain extent but I also don’t think it is some unicorn relationship either. I’ve been thinking about it since this became such a huge topic in the media and I think what helped me the most was seeing my parents model a fairly egalitarian relationship for the 80s and 90s. My father was a father fighter who worked a 24 hr shift every three days. That meant he was home the other two. My mom worked in an office about 45 min away 5 days a week. So I grew up seeing him (and some of my friends’ dads) driving carpool, making dinner, grocery shopping, cleaning, etc. etc.
When I entered into my first serious relationship with a man (with my eventual husband), I never centered him in the first place because I didn’t know I was “supposed to.” We were both grad students, both very busy, both making the same amount of money. Why should I do more cleaning and cooking? Just because I am the girl? Uh, no 😂 My husband is a competent, responsible adult and I treat him like one. Here are some things I have never once done for him in my life: pick out his clothes, iron his clothes, buy him a present to give to someone else, wrap the presents he bought to give to someone else, manage is social life, manage his relationships with his own friends and family, pack his lunch, pack his suitcase (especially for a trip we are not going on together), make dr appointments for him. If he asked me to do any of this, I think my first response would have been a puzzled laugh? Pack your suitcase for you? Like you are a 12 yo going to summer camp for the first time??? What on earth. You know much better what you need for a business trip than I do. Or you should anyway.
My advice to any young women who are reading this and would like to be married to an equal partner: start as you mean to go on. Don’t baby him. Don’t “play house,” even if it seems fun at the time. Don’t do favors that you don’t want to be doing for the rest of your life (especially after you have kids). Treat him like the capable adult he is. And if he refuses to be one, there’s your answer. No one wants to mother their romantic partner. That’s not attractive in any way shape or form.
Ok-Promise-5921 | 5 hours ago
Not sure why you were downvoted, I think this is really excellent advice...that a lot of women both young and old need to hear...
__squirrelly__ | 4 hours ago
This is what it's supposed to be like. But have you really never met unhappily married people?
I'm happily single and pleased to see younger couples like this but so many older couples are miserable.
Iheartthe1990s | 4 hours ago
Of course I do but they’re not all unhappy for this specific reason. There are a lot of reasons why a marriage or longterm relationship might fail. I also know a lot of happy couples.
Kachimushi | 8 hours ago
Yes, it's bizarre to see people treat relationships like they're a chore and then go "I don't want a chore, I'll stay single".
Your partner should ideally be the person you have to least "put your mask on" around. They should be someone who vibes with the natural you.
hellocousinlarry | 6 hours ago
We all know that. The point is not settling for relationships where your partner makes your life a chore, of which there are millions of examples. Almost everyone would be delighted to meet someone where you uplift each other and can be your true selves around, and I’m not sure why you think people who have stopped dating weren’t trying to find that.
Iheartthe1990s | 8 hours ago
>Your partner should ideally be the person you have to least "put your mask on" around. They should be someone who vibes with the natural you.
Yes I totally agree! My husband feels like my safe place, he feels like home to me. We can 100% be our most authentic selves with each other (to give you an example, we often made up silly songs about our babies and we’d go around the house singing to them. Now we do it about our dog. I would never do this in front of someone else, lol). He’s my favorite person, basically, and I feel incredibly lucky to have had him in my life as long as I have.
When I go on social media, I often see discussion back and forth about “what do men/women bring to the table.” And I wonder: when did relationships get so transactional? What happened to just enjoying the time you spend together? Emotional intimacy, physical intimacy, jokes, laughter, FUN. No one brings those things up on social media, perhaps because they are so intangible and personal as to be almost impossible to explain. But ime and imo, if that baseline compatibility and pleasure in each other’s company isn’t there, you have to ask yourself what are you are you even doing besides wasting your own time? You need to enjoy and respect each other as people. That’s the most important, fundamental thing. And none of that means dressing up, wearing makeup, putting his needs first, cooking, cleaning, or abnegating yourself.
zer0ace | 6 hours ago
From my anecdotal experience (my friends), women don’t start soured to relationships. We all are optimistic and have that excited crush feeling at first. When it usually falls apart is when they begin to live with their partners and have to manage households. Some couples fell into a division of labor that made sense for them, some did not. Most critically, the couples that didn’t stay together was due to the woman feeling like the guy didn’t love her enough to pick up after himself. He had bought into the idea that your spouse should be the person you feel least ‘buttoned up’ around, so to speak, but interpreted it to mean he didn’t have to make an effort for her anymore.
I think men of our age (millennials) are still of this mindset, though it isn’t all a lost cause. I heard of mutual acquaintances whose husbands are really dropping the ball when their wives stopped doing the delegating/social admin for them especially with regard to kids. When dad is caring for the kids, mom does not fuss about planning an itinerary or meals for them if she’s not part of the plans. It’s pretty wild how many of these guys still text their wives to ask what the food plan is even though she isn’t with them for that meal. And while I take a lot of Reddit with a grain of salt, I suspect this dynamic sadly isn’t as out of date as many (mostly women who were convinced that their partners were better than the previous generation) believe.
Iheartthe1990s | 6 hours ago
>It’s pretty wild how many of these guys still text their wives to ask what the food plan is even though she isn’t with them for that meal.
I see this stuff too and I’m always curious about how the longer interaction plays out.
If my husband texted this to me, I’d say “I don’t know what’s in the fridge or pantry right now?”
His response. “Nothing.”
Mine “ok you’ll have to go to the grocery store then. Make sure you pick up some fruit and veggies too.”
I do understand there are some POS men out there who wouldn’t go to the grocery store. But I think some can be shamed into it? We need to bring back shame as a motivator imo. “What do you mean you have the kids McDonald’s 3 nights in a row? Do you want them to develop health problems and become picky eaters??” And so on. At least, that’s how I’d handle it.
zer0ace | 6 hours ago
For context: I think the women who are choosing to not settle, especially the divorced ones, are not willing to bother with men who need this conversation.
We bought into the ‘oh we just need to teach/shame them to do it’ mentality regarding partners. And then those guys went full weaponized incompetence.
I’m not saying that partners can’t/shouldn’t learn from each other, but I genuinely wonder how often it is that a man has to ‘teach’ his wife how/what to feed herself/the kids without an egregious age gap between them. I suspect not nearly the rate it is for women with men, but I’ll be glad to be proven wrong.
LetsGoCoconuts | 5 hours ago
Even in this imagination of an interaction you’re still doling out chores like a mother. Why would a husband need to be told to go to the grocery store or remember to buy produce? An actual partnership would be your husband saying, “hey, pantry is empty, I’m going to the grocery store, here’s the grocery list, do you want to add anything?”
Iheartthe1990s | 5 hours ago
Well my husband would never actually do this. He is a strong believer in healthy eating and nutrition for our children. Like I said, he actually does the vast majority of cooking and grocery shopping in our family.
But my larger point is that, in any of these interactions that women typically post about, I always wonder what they say to them and then what the husbands say back. For me, it just wouldn’t end at him making a request. It would end in me telling him to be an adult and take care of it and stop bothering me at work.
For example. One thing I often see women post about is that they do the grocery shopping because they can’t “trust” their husbands to do it! Either they’ll buy a ton of crap and waste money or buy the wrong things. I just can’t envision this because if it happened to me, I’d tell him to go back and buy the milk, eggs, and other staples we need. Like what do you mean, you couldn’t find the eggs?! Ask someone who works there for help. What do you mean that you bought Cheetos and beer instead of milk? Go back and buy the milk! It’s not rocket science. How is it that you’re able to do XYZ hard thing at work yet can’t complete a simple grocery store run?
LetsGoCoconuts | 5 hours ago
In response to your larger point, it sounds like women are starting to choose to respond by not having a husband or partner that they have to handhold through basic household chores in the first place. In your example of how to respond you still end up having to have a conversation with an adult man about how half-assing grocery shopping is not acceptable. Many women don’t want to have to teach basic life skills to an adult man when his parents/society should have already taught him. Basically it’s not a wife’s responsibility to teach her husband how to live, and while many wives enable their husbands, I don’t necessarily blame other women with whatever their response is to their husband’s weaponized incompetence.
Iheartthe1990s | 5 hours ago
You’re assuming you will have to though. I’ve been trying to think about what I’ve had to coach my husband through and the only thing I can think of was partially my own fault. For context, this was after we had our first baby in 2008. At the time, drs and nurses were still fanatical about “breast is best” so I was determined to breast feed for at least 4 months so he’d get the supposed benefits being touted. Because of this, I had this dumb idea that I should let him sleep since I was on mat leave and he wasn’t. Anyway, after 4 months, we had to have a convo in which I explained that I needed more help and could not go on like this or I would have a nervous breakdown.
To his credit, he had no issue with switching to formula and splitting the night shift with me. He’d take the first one, feed the baby when he went to bed around 12, then I’d handle any wake ups after that. We did this from day 1 with our 2 subsequent children.
I really have no complaints about him when it comes to childcare, housework, holidays, etc. He’s been an excellent partner and right there in the trenches with me when it comes to the kids.
As far as the examples I posted about though. YMMV but for me, if I had a lot of natural compatibility with a person and I sensed that I could successfully teach him how to be a better partner to me (as I did with my husband after we had our first child), I’d be willing to do it. It’s expected that couples go through ups and downs. That’s kind of the point - you have a partner you’re “doing life” with. Having to teach a person to do a grocery run is the price you might pay for nights cuddling on the couch while you watch tv or having him to vent to about work problems etc. etc.
zer0ace | 4 hours ago
I hear what you are saying, but this is the exact mentality that led to my friend marrying a manchild in the first place and essentially winding up with two children after she gave birth to their child. The belief that she wasn’t communicating enough or properly, and focusing on the positives, etc, that relationships were work and this type of friction was inevitable.
Well eventually he no longer fulfilled the positives she clung to. He never stood by her when his parents made unreasonable demands (expecting them to host them for a weekend with only as much warning as it took to drive down), and couldn’t even respect her concerns when it came to their child’s safety.
The problem is also that the default responses are like yours, wondering if the woman did enough to resolve the issue or teach him the way to be a better partner. And also simultaneously being told not all men are like this, etc. I think by the time these grievances are being aired, women have likely made multiple attempts to try and resolve this (as in the case of my friends, none of them have posted to Reddit seeking advice so it’s likely underrepresented here).
Again, it’s not bad to try to work through disagreements, etc, but you can tell when someone is working with you versus doing the bare minimum or even maliciously complying so they eventually stop being ‘nagged.’ You can sense it with coworkers, students, friends, etc. but for some reason, despite statistics that show women still take on much of the domestic work and management compared to men, we tend to have skepticism that women aren’t communicating these needs properly and not that men aren’t stepping up to close a well studied and published gap.
bussound | 7 hours ago
This is well said. There’s a chemistry with someone that can make life richer. And that adds a lot of value beyond adult skill based attributes that people are often complaining that their partners don’t meet.
My husband is a great person to be around. Along with being a functional adult who can cook, he’s great company and up for new things. We can have the best day traveling around in Portugal or just staying in bed all day. We also sing songs to the dog. He keeps me grounded and reminds me to be proud of myself. I think he would be extremely hard to replace if there’s ever a period without him so I wouldn’t bother to look for someone else. And that’s because that chemistry is so rare.
Quouar | 3 hours ago
Absolutely second this. I'm autistic, so any time I go anywhere or do anything, I have to mask. The one exception is with my partners. I love them specifically because I can just be my silly self and be accepted for who I am rather than who I'm supposed to be. While I can definitely appreciate the benefits of being single, there is also something delightful about having at least one person who is happy to be around you as you are, without judgement, and with love.
letthetreeburn | 23 minutes ago
That’s what the entire movement is about. Not treating getting a husband like a goal, but a fun possibility. Your situation is the goal.
fernbog | 5 hours ago
I don’t think that’s weird. It’s the same with my boyfriend- he cleans, cooks, and is so good at fixing things. We don’t have kids and don’t want them, but otherwise your situation sounds a lot like mine. Which is great! We respect each other as two individuals on a team. One thing I love the most about our partnership is that neither of us has lost ourselves. We root for each other and encourage each other, we have our differences, and we love the hell out of each other. I feel so beyond lucky because I feel like my relationship is a white whale.
techaaron | 5 hours ago
It's only weird to redditors lol.
This is the norm. I wake up and want to do things for my partner, not because I feel obliged or have to but because I love giving love to them and love seeing how they receive it.
I think it's a weird concept to people with a strong self orientation or lacking generosity, I suspect based on trauma in their upbringing.
InvisibleEar | an hour ago
It's nice one of them is happy in an "intentional community" but there are not a significant number of people in those. Quite a lot of them are cults.
bongwateramoeba | 4 hours ago
Sigh. Dating is so heavily commodified. To pursue a partner is essentially to pursue an item being marketed to you now. Men and women are purchased, compared to one another, and thrown away if they aren't checking all of the boxes. Today's relationships just have such a lack of "oomph", totally missing an it factor. It's rare that I see a man and a woman who are both totally bringing it in terms of charm, good looks, health, talents, etc. Everyone feels so unsure of themselves and relationships just look totally unstimulating. Lots of settling going on - and nobody needs to choose between settling and being alone forever.
I feel for the women in this position and understand, but I'm pissed that many women may be missing out on the enrapturing experience of being in a truly fulfilling relationship with an incredible man.
techaaron | 8 hours ago
I can't help but wonder how much of this hyper individuality and self interest is being caused by the corporatocracy so we are dependent on them.
It sure seems like they profit from us not having community, families or relationships?
ViceMaiden | 8 hours ago
This is about romantic relationships, not giving up community, family, or all relationships.
techaaron | 6 hours ago
That seems like a rather myopic view of social change.
BaroqueGorgon | 5 hours ago
Is it? Or is yours a failure to understand that community and family can still exist outside of Western marriage customs. See the Mosuo people, for instance.
techaaron | 5 hours ago
I don't think it's an understanding issue, data is data.
You're entitled to your own opinion obviously.
ViceMaiden | 5 hours ago
I've seen some of your other comments here. I don't think you're understanding the concept and I say that honestly and nonjudgmental.
But you are also standing firm and not taking in anything being said to you in response which would help you understand what we (women choosing to stay single) are doing.
techaaron | 5 hours ago
Ok vicemaiden lol
ViceMaiden | 5 hours ago
Well, that solidifies it. Thanks.
techaaron | 5 hours ago
😅 truly that made me laugh thank you reddit stranger
gingiberiblue | 6 hours ago
Women have plenty of relationships. We are not experiencing a "loneliness epidemic". We seek out, create, and nurture community.
Men, however, have been socialized to rely on women for basically all social and emotional labor. They, not as a monolith but generally, do not possess the skills or emotional intelligence to create lasting relationships outside of, frankly, extractive romantic partnerships.
It is easier, and more fulfilling, to choose to remain single, when you have a true community that you are a member of.
Men now find themselves in a transitory era: Either adapt and develop the emotional and relational skills required to become attractive, not extractive, romantic partners, or continue to whine about it and fail to develop these skills and find themselves unable to attract and retain long term romantic partners.
It's really quite simple, in evolutionary terms.
techaaron | 6 hours ago
No what I'm saying is that the corporatocracy and government have replaced family.
gingiberiblue | 6 hours ago
No. They have not. We still have families. It's just that many of us do not desire husbands.
techaaron | 5 hours ago
No I mean corporations have mostly replaced that is what I'm saying.
thebogiron | 5 hours ago
No, corporations have not replaced husbands. Men have refused to level up in the ways they are definitely able to without any real hurdle, whereas women had no choice but to do this and for decades with immense hurdles (lack of access to credit, mortgages, pay gaps, etc.) So why would women now lower their already low bar standards just to have a husband?
Some women are lonely, it's true. But they no longer have to settle for just anyone. Wanting a family is normal and fine, but fewer women are willing to put up with the tremendous headaches and risks that come with that.
techaaron | 5 hours ago
No, the working theory is that corporations and government have slowly replaced the family unit and community spaces and relationships is what I'm saying.
thebogiron | 5 hours ago
I read what you wrote, I disagree with it. There is no replacement happening, no one is substituting things for family.
techaaron | 4 hours ago
Oh I'm sure if you've never heard the theory that it feels uncomfortable and you would naturally resist for ego coherence!
>Evidence suggests that increasing commercialization by corporations and the expansion of the state have significantly altered, rather than completely replaced, traditional community and family structures. Corporate, state-driven, and technological factors now fill roles previously held by local communities, leading to weaker social bonds and less time for family.
gingiberiblue | 4 hours ago
Your own quote literally says it has not replaced family. And this is about community, not family, support structures.
thebogiron | 3 hours ago
You so, so desperately want this to be the reason women are not choosing to get married, which is different than what that says, and it also doesn't apply to just women. I am sorry if no one has picked you yet, but there are probably reasons for that beyond your right wing talking points about women.
TheDeansofQarth | 4 hours ago
Everyone understands what you are saying. You are failing to understand that it isn't relevant to the conversation.
techaaron | 4 hours ago
Oh it's definitely the core issue, why wouldn't it be.