I build based on libghostty, but with Typescript and Golang. I read this article precisely because I was worried about the future of Zig, despite not programming in it directly.
Thankful for the Hashimoto support of both organizations' financial sources: Zig Software Foundation and Ghostty via Hack Club. Thus both projects have external accountability. Hopefully that can help long term viability issues and alleviate the projects' social and financial pressures, as well as guide the projects technological and management choices. If that scaffolding didn't exist, I might not have chosen the platform.
Thats only because the chicken and egg problem prevents it. We are in a new world where this problem is solvable. Fake it until you make it. Use the LLM to give you what you want first and humans can backfill what is important later.
> Zig has been under development for more than a decade. It remains at version 0.x, without a firm date for a stable 1.0 release.
> A programming language is infrastructure. Developers write applications and libraries against its syntax, standard library, compiler, and build tooling, and those interfaces determine how much of the surrounding ecosystem remains usable from one release to the next. In Zig, they seem to be forever changing, with the authors nigh-obsessed about breakage.
> The maintainers have a roadmap to 1.0, but that gives developers no meaningful indication of when they can expect the interfaces they depend on to stop changing. It may well take another decade.
If your "inherently unstable phase" is going to last multiple decades, you're not in a phase at all. You're just unstable.
You can use zig just fine these days Ghostty, Tigerbeetle and bun before rust rewrite proved it. So i could care less if 1.0 lands next year or in 2033.
If LLM are as good as people say why care about unstable API the LLM can help rewrite and fix it withing like 60 min.
Meh, Zig doesn't owe anyone anything. If you want a blub language that won't break compatibility, use Golang. If you want a fully mature low-level language, use C.
Not really active in the Zig space but it doesn't really give me a good impression how Kelley appears to use Zig as his personal megaphone. For instance the GitHub migration post, which I don't disagree with, but was written like an emotionally charged personal blog post.
re stability/backward-compatibility: that's not inherently a bad thing if it leads to better abstractions, also easier w/ ai assistance now to adapt when there are changes
(python 2 to python 3 migration would have been less of an issue now as well)
> The recurring theme is that Zig's maintainers appear more interested in enforcing their vision of how software should be developed than making Zig a practical tool for people who want to build software. And that is a serious problem for a programming language.
Not true! It just means (realizing a) vision is more important to them than becoming popular. It's their choice to make.
I don't think you end up with a project like Zig by wanting to compromise and ship quick to watch adoption grow. That doesn't make it any more stable at the moment, or necessarily any time soon, but it does mean you actually get a language like Zig.
I do wish there was a little less drama involved with Zig. Seems to be the curse of programming languages.
I also wish this article had a more... human touch. Not because of the phrasing etc, it just repeats itself a lot and a quick steer for brevity would have gone a long way.
The stability comment makes some sense but the rest of this article is just complaining for the sake of complaining. Clearly their "no AI contributions" policy is not preventing the language and ecosystem from improving. And nobody says you can't use AI to make Zig programs.
Basically I feel like this author is trying to do a newspaper-style complaint, an opinion column, making "news" where there isn't really any. I don't think a project as small, mostly-volunteer-driven and friendly as Zig deserves that kind of treatment.
Andrew already opened up about using LLMs for finding bugs but it will be done after they covered all other bug finding methods. This opening up came from what the sqlite guys presented about using LLMs for finding bugs and the zig compiler team hinted at following the same bug squashing route that the sqlite guys followed.
It's was in a presentation given at the tigerbeetle guys event.
Time will tell, but using Bun moving to Rust as evidence that Zig is doing it wrong is hilariously backward. Bun YOLOs a vibe code Rust port as it is absorbed by an AI company and you think it was the language ecosystem at issue?
I maintain many large Zig projects (see profile) and none of this matters to me at all. Why should I care what the core team thinks about AI, which code forge they use, or what internet drama happened between them and Bun? I'm too busy building things to care about this HN gossip. It doesn't affect my use of Zig as a tool.
The point about constant compatibility breakage is the only valid one, but users are naturally self-selecting on that. I knew what I was getting into when I chose Zig. The upside is that the language isn't getting saddled by poor early designs (the "Writergate" breakage was a huge design improvement, as is the new Io interface). Also, it goes without saying that LLMs have dramatically reduced the cost of dealing with breaking changes, and the core team isn't going to stop you from using it.
For everyone to be aware this site's about page states:
"""
This is a site designed to serve as a center for information - and by "center," we mean center. ByteCode.News is a site fed from discord, slack, IRC, and here on the web, meaning to present a common information graph and a common set of services.
"""
From my quick skimming of the site it just looks like hundreds of AI articles. More than likely it's just an AI bot that generates articles after some threshold of engagement is reached on "discord, slack, IRC".
Typically I’d say “fork it”, but here, I would actually recommend designing your own language for its niche (a modern C, a performant language without Rust’s annoying memory management), having an LLM implement it, then open-sourcing with examples and measurements (how easy is it to work with? How many bugs are in generated code? etc.). These languages are bound to be so similar that, if one proves better than others, LLMs can port the others’ code. And it’s very fun, and you get a language with features specific to your use-case, and bike-shedding in your favor.
Honestly, making any argument off Bun's switch to Rust is the point where I can't take anything in the article for serious anymore. I don't see how that particular case can serve as solid grounds of argument for anything yet at this point, and it just nulls out credibility for anything in the remaining article for me.
Having a powerful language going fully anti AI is awesome because you will have something to compare against in the future. If we conclude that it was a bad decision, it shall die. If it wasn't, we will learn a lot.
Haven't considered this take and makes me wonder how we might be slowly losing baselines to compare against (other than targeting years old releases as a sledgehammer guarantee).
That's the problem with personal ownership as far as programming languages are concerned - beneficial dictators for life, even if well-intentioned, can still meet their own criteria before anyone else's.
That's why ISO is committee-based (democratic), despite the issues and slower speed, that process is better suited to
You can always make a fork of Zig called "Zack"....
I bought the book, I started projects, but I was wary of committing for the reasons stated in the article: the instability of the language, the capricious decision making of its leadership, and the evident concern for in-group purity over project well-being.
It's more a toy of a small community of like-minded developers than a product for general consumption.
When Bun switched and they responded as they did the project confirmed that they aren't interested in serving the open market for developers, they're only interested in building something for themselves. Which is fine so long as all you're producing is the compiler; because all users, even those in their in-group, are subject to the stability problems with the language.
> The post criticized Bun's engineering practices, management, development culture, and business decisions. It described the foundation as relieved that the relationship was over and treated Bun as a liability (a term the Zig project seems particularly fond of when justifying its caprices). And all this in response to a project that had spent years using Zig, publicly promoting it, contributing to its ecosystem, and donating substantial amounts of money to its development.
They may as well have made their repos private and put up a notice on their website stating that they aren't interested in having users, please kindly withhold further inquiries.
This looks like a pointless polemic more than any valid critique - I would be interested in taking a look at the prompts that produced this angry slop article.
Zig foundation is a non-profit with their mission being educating the "next generation of programmers". They decided against AI usage and I for one am grateful for a last corner on the internet that caters to the craft as opposed to literally every other community that has been reduced to discussing agent loops.
Again, ignoring the AI fingerprints of the article, all the criticism boils down to it being a project catering to different needs. You are free to fork it, name it Zag and run Claude on it to create the language of your dreams.
> Not everyone wants to become a compiler engineer. Some people encounter a bug while trying to build their own software and would simply like to fix it. That's a perfectly legitimate contribution whether you intend to work on Zig for the next ten years or never touch it again.
I'm on the record as not a fan of Zig's management or choices, but this is among the many statements I disagree with in this article. The Zig team is writing (among other things) a compiler. If you don't want to become a compiler engineer, the maintainers are perfectly within their rights to decline to review your code or work with you further.
It's the other side of this that I take issue with. There are plenty of people who do want to become compiler engineers who see LLMs as a way of accelerating understanding by way of having a very well-informed (if not sometimes incorrect) chatbot be able to answer your questions and indulge your curiosity. IMO, it's these people that are the most let down by Zig's LLM policy.
I think you can debate Zig's choices, but this reads like AI slop on a AI slop website focused on Zig's exclusion of AI slop contributions.
> Its contribution policy excludes otherwise legitimate engineering workflows. [...] The recurring theme is that Zig's maintainers appear more interested in enforcing their vision of how software should be developed than making Zig a practical tool for people who want to build software.
I think a reasonable read of Zig's comments on LLM contributions is the volume and quality of human contributions is sufficient to sustain the project, and trying to accept LLM contribution creates more work than solutions.
And the author conflates contribution policy with downstream use of AI. Users are free to adopt all the AI tools they want on a Zig codebase. It is not true that, for users, "certain tools which might make it easier are unacceptable".
I for one don't personally agree with a bunch of Zig's choices (not bets that I'm interested in), but think most or all are reasonable in the space of possible trade-offs.
I don't like to use big, sharp and divisive words but for lack of better ways to express what I think, I'm gonna say it straight up - it is extremely stupid.
So the complaints are:
1) that a 0.x versioned language which itself says is unstable and will break things for the sake of future quality, is breaking stuff? Shocking. Unbelievable.
2) they moved to codeberg. I think it absolutely is fair to say a project is going nowhere because they went from one git forge to another. It's a big migration for end users after all, you have to set a new remote for your origin
3) they do not use github sponsor anymore. Wonder if this is because they moved to codeberg. Unsure.
4) they wish for contributors to be engaged with the project and to stick long term.
5) they make "sweeping statements" on the quality of AI. Nothing I say here will convince you of anything unless you already agree with me, so I will spare my time and just say that given the point of view here is that AI is actually better than what Zig contributors think it is, and Zig contributors target version bump documentation breaking changes for humans, wouldn't this also directly clash with your idea that breaking changes take up a substantial amount of work for users of Zig? It's one or the other
This goes alongside "the language doesn't own its users" - a claim so ridiculous, the authors themselves have said plenty of times that, for example, if you wish to use AI to develop zig, you can, just not in the compiler project. What have they done which would make you think anyone at ZSF wants control over what you do and how you do it?
Overall I feel like this is complaining for the sake of complaining. I am also willingly going to ignore the blatant AI writing style (I'm sure that's just the way OP writes though) and the site which I feel like I can confidently say with which model and what effort level it was generated.
I'm seeing an anti-LLM dogmatism across Mastodon, Bluesky, and Github discussions, among people I guess identify as online activists, or maybe just, activists who happen to be online.
The latest uproar is because the Big Walk devs copy-pasted a some ChatGPT code into the game, and didn't disclose this on the Steam AI thing (I think it wasn't technically a requirement at the time because it wasn't AI generated art).
On Bluesky, a lot of people are talking about this as a sort of betrayal, and are saying there's no valid LLM usage, that even just using ChatGPT once in this tiny way is verboten.
I saw this exact same thing happen when Framework was cancelled for giving a laptop to DHH. I wrote about it https://blog.calebjay.com/posts/moral-contagion/ , and it's genuinely uncanny to see this replay turn for turn. There's some kind of underlying template going on here.
The properties are the same: a good guy (the Big Walk devs are known for, for example, refusing to publish on Xbox because microsoft is on BDS) dips a toe into a determined Bad, and in doing so, has become infected with an Original Sin or perhaps disease of association with Bad. Moral contagion. There's no difference between Framework giving a laptop to DHH and bringing him on stage and shaking his hand and handing him a million dollars - both actions are identically considered an endorsement of DHH's white supremacy. Similarly, using an LLM a little bit is not only the same as dropping ten thousand lines of slop code into a PR to curl, it's also the same thing as personally drying out a river feeding a poor village next to a new Datacenter, or, creating and posting a racial dogwhistle AI generated video, or chucking a double siege-heil on national telivision, because these things are all proximal to eachother, they touch, they're all contaminated. A leper ethical system.
Now Big Walk is cancelled. Which of course creates obvious incentives: god almighty, do NOT tell people you used a bit of ChatGPT, you'll never be forgiven. Or, fuck it, if you're going to do it, just lean in, because not only have you lost an entire demographic online, somehow just using AI automatically makes you more attractive to another demographic. For example, take a look at some of the Malfoid content on youtube, a lot of it intermixes American right wing iconography with their videos, since for whatever reason a lot of American right wingers identify with the trend.
Which to me means a lot of political identity is getting wrapped up in this. You can't talk to these people, you'll get hit with a "fuck right off" or "supporting fascism? Well that's certainly a Choice." Dogmatism reduces ability to critically think, but it doesn't matter, maintaining these boundaries is how a lot of people protect these online spaces they've created. They incidentally incorporate these companies they perceived as also within that space - Framework for its right to repair / green work, Big Walk for its BDS stuff and other left-aligned things they do - so there's not just a moral contagion aspect, but also a betrayal.
Which leads to my final thing I've noticed here, and others too: these erstwhile ideological allies are punished far more severely than objectively worse actors. Data centers suck up some water, sure, but the worse contributors to human caused climate change are oil and gas companies, who actively lobby to maintain their polluting industries over green alternatives (and even publish misinformation to do so). So why then is a person who drives a car instead of taking a bike or public transit not also tainted by moral contagion? What about people who buy clothing from sweatshop factories? Or the endless other evils under capitalism. Well because those companies aren't betraying us, they're just doing what evil capitalist companies are expected to! There's no betrayal.
So the end result is that good actors face far more scrutiny and can't make the smallest mistake, and all this online activist energy is burnt away attacking erstwhile allies and then purity-purging any of their own members who push back on this in the slightest. It's really frustrating to see this happening again with LLM usage, which "Lula's army" winning against Bolsanaro in Brazil (leveraging social media and AI-created content) conclusively proved that the left wing can use these tools to forward left-aligned goals.
you seem to be leaning really heavily into hyperbole, and then making logical deductions from the hyperbole.
If you start with a premise, then exaggerate to a dramatic degree, then your deductions don't actually follow from the premise, they only follow from the (unreal) exaggeration
N_Lens | an hour ago
tkel | 19 minutes ago
NoDodgeQuestion | an hour ago
pzel_ | an hour ago
pjmlp | an hour ago
Even less so, in AI driven development age, that the Zig community is notoriously against.
Interesting language for the last century, between Modula-2, Object Pascal, C, C++ and co.
In 2026, less Interesting.
NoDodgeQuestion | an hour ago
Maybe not unavoidable product, but zig has a vision, do not need to go different direction or make product immediately or die
dleslie | 55 minutes ago
neomantra | 53 minutes ago
Thankful for the Hashimoto support of both organizations' financial sources: Zig Software Foundation and Ghostty via Hack Club. Thus both projects have external accountability. Hopefully that can help long term viability issues and alleviate the projects' social and financial pressures, as well as guide the projects technological and management choices. If that scaffolding didn't exist, I might not have chosen the platform.
short_sells_poo | an hour ago
You are saying they Zig is uninteresting because they don't want to pander to the current fads?
Let them cook. Perhaps they want to work on the core language for now, and maybe in 2-3 years time they can focus on the framework.
Or maybe they don't care about being popular. A passion project that is being worked on for a small group's enjoyment can still be interesting.
enos_feedler | an hour ago
lewdwig | an hour ago
The important question is when/whether it will hit 1.0 and what its commitment to stability looks like _afterwards_.
thaumasiotes | an hour ago
> Zig has been under development for more than a decade. It remains at version 0.x, without a firm date for a stable 1.0 release.
> A programming language is infrastructure. Developers write applications and libraries against its syntax, standard library, compiler, and build tooling, and those interfaces determine how much of the surrounding ecosystem remains usable from one release to the next. In Zig, they seem to be forever changing, with the authors nigh-obsessed about breakage.
> The maintainers have a roadmap to 1.0, but that gives developers no meaningful indication of when they can expect the interfaces they depend on to stop changing. It may well take another decade.
If your "inherently unstable phase" is going to last multiple decades, you're not in a phase at all. You're just unstable.
dragonelite | 58 minutes ago
If LLM are as good as people say why care about unstable API the LLM can help rewrite and fix it withing like 60 min.
snitty | 59 minutes ago
eviks | 40 minutes ago
disiplus | an hour ago
xnfra | an hour ago
ForHackernews | an hour ago
cedws | an hour ago
tosh | an hour ago
(python 2 to python 3 migration would have been less of an issue now as well)
oddIdentities | an hour ago
personally, I'm more alarmed that they're dropping LLVM in favor of their own backend.
good luck, boys.
alexrp | 57 minutes ago
Long-term, we do want to compete with LLVM for optimized builds too, but there are no plans whatsoever to drop LLVM support.
rbr94 | an hour ago
Not true! It just means (realizing a) vision is more important to them than becoming popular. It's their choice to make.
skor | an hour ago
rustyhancock | an hour ago
It's also a choice many of us wish in hindsight our tool makers had made.
0-_-0 | 58 minutes ago
dns_snek | 45 minutes ago
I don't necessarily agree with everything, but I appreciate that there's a strong vision.
zamadatix | an hour ago
I do wish there was a little less drama involved with Zig. Seems to be the curse of programming languages.
I also wish this article had a more... human touch. Not because of the phrasing etc, it just repeats itself a lot and a quick steer for brevity would have gone a long way.
raincole | an hour ago
skrebbel | an hour ago
Basically I feel like this author is trying to do a newspaper-style complaint, an opinion column, making "news" where there isn't really any. I don't think a project as small, mostly-volunteer-driven and friendly as Zig deserves that kind of treatment.
conartist6 | an hour ago
There should be no slop code, no slop words, NO WAY TO TELL.
I couldn't give less of a shit if you use AI if nobody in the world could possibly tell. But that's not what any of this is about.
callamdelaney | an hour ago
It’s fine for them to just be.
adwn | an hour ago
> No LLMs for finding bugs.
Good luck with that in the era of LLM-discovered security vulnerabilities.
[1] https://ziglang.org/code-of-conduct/
dragonelite | 50 minutes ago
It's was in a presentation given at the tigerbeetle guys event.
source: https://youtu.be/zwi5b5xSsKA?t=1774
l-mdev | an hour ago
gorjusborg | an hour ago
andai | an hour ago
Is it 1.0 yet?
The whole point of not being stable yet is so that you can try things out and see what actually makes sense before committing to it for all time.
(Counterpoint: C++, JavaScript xD)
I guess it has been like 10 years at this point though.
viraptor | 54 minutes ago
The way I read it, the post seems to argue they have enough users already to seriously consider cutting the first stable release.
dzogchen | an hour ago
xeubie | an hour ago
The point about constant compatibility breakage is the only valid one, but users are naturally self-selecting on that. I knew what I was getting into when I chose Zig. The upside is that the language isn't getting saddled by poor early designs (the "Writergate" breakage was a huge design improvement, as is the new Io interface). Also, it goes without saying that LLMs have dramatically reduced the cost of dealing with breaking changes, and the core team isn't going to stop you from using it.
fayten | an hour ago
""" This is a site designed to serve as a center for information - and by "center," we mean center. ByteCode.News is a site fed from discord, slack, IRC, and here on the web, meaning to present a common information graph and a common set of services. """
From my quick skimming of the site it just looks like hundreds of AI articles. More than likely it's just an AI bot that generates articles after some threshold of engagement is reached on "discord, slack, IRC".
There are lots of Ads that are posted as if they are articles for example: https://bytecode.news/posts/2026/10/cheerpj-5-launches-java-...
The article itself is just an extremely odd hit piece against Zig, I'd even be guess this is a form of "rage/engagement bait".
sedictious | 51 minutes ago
apignotti | 51 minutes ago
https://labs.leaningtech.com/blog/cheerpj-5.0
dragonelite | an hour ago
Just because AI bros can't put "Zig compiler" contributor on their linkedin page or CV doesn't make it an shit language.
andai | an hour ago
Master Foo, who gains more merit? He who writes ten thousand lines?
Or he who, recognizing the emptiness of the endeavour, writes zero?
armchairhacker | an hour ago
eqvinox | an hour ago
duendefm | 58 minutes ago
rskeens | 47 minutes ago
jll29 | 58 minutes ago
That's why ISO is committee-based (democratic), despite the issues and slower speed, that process is better suited to
You can always make a fork of Zig called "Zack"....
onehair | 58 minutes ago
Fayten makes a good point here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50452445 About this article is 100% clickbait and 0 substance
dleslie | 57 minutes ago
It's more a toy of a small community of like-minded developers than a product for general consumption.
When Bun switched and they responded as they did the project confirmed that they aren't interested in serving the open market for developers, they're only interested in building something for themselves. Which is fine so long as all you're producing is the compiler; because all users, even those in their in-group, are subject to the stability problems with the language.
> The post criticized Bun's engineering practices, management, development culture, and business decisions. It described the foundation as relieved that the relationship was over and treated Bun as a liability (a term the Zig project seems particularly fond of when justifying its caprices). And all this in response to a project that had spent years using Zig, publicly promoting it, contributing to its ecosystem, and donating substantial amounts of money to its development.
They may as well have made their repos private and put up a notice on their website stating that they aren't interested in having users, please kindly withhold further inquiries.
tkel | 14 minutes ago
sedictious | 53 minutes ago
Zig foundation is a non-profit with their mission being educating the "next generation of programmers". They decided against AI usage and I for one am grateful for a last corner on the internet that caters to the craft as opposed to literally every other community that has been reduced to discussing agent loops.
Again, ignoring the AI fingerprints of the article, all the criticism boils down to it being a project catering to different needs. You are free to fork it, name it Zag and run Claude on it to create the language of your dreams.
bayesnet | 53 minutes ago
I'm on the record as not a fan of Zig's management or choices, but this is among the many statements I disagree with in this article. The Zig team is writing (among other things) a compiler. If you don't want to become a compiler engineer, the maintainers are perfectly within their rights to decline to review your code or work with you further.
It's the other side of this that I take issue with. There are plenty of people who do want to become compiler engineers who see LLMs as a way of accelerating understanding by way of having a very well-informed (if not sometimes incorrect) chatbot be able to answer your questions and indulge your curiosity. IMO, it's these people that are the most let down by Zig's LLM policy.
colinhb | 51 minutes ago
> Its contribution policy excludes otherwise legitimate engineering workflows. [...] The recurring theme is that Zig's maintainers appear more interested in enforcing their vision of how software should be developed than making Zig a practical tool for people who want to build software.
I think a reasonable read of Zig's comments on LLM contributions is the volume and quality of human contributions is sufficient to sustain the project, and trying to accept LLM contribution creates more work than solutions.
And the author conflates contribution policy with downstream use of AI. Users are free to adopt all the AI tools they want on a Zig codebase. It is not true that, for users, "certain tools which might make it easier are unacceptable".
I for one don't personally agree with a bunch of Zig's choices (not bets that I'm interested in), but think most or all are reasonable in the space of possible trade-offs.
xydone | 51 minutes ago
So the complaints are: 1) that a 0.x versioned language which itself says is unstable and will break things for the sake of future quality, is breaking stuff? Shocking. Unbelievable.
2) they moved to codeberg. I think it absolutely is fair to say a project is going nowhere because they went from one git forge to another. It's a big migration for end users after all, you have to set a new remote for your origin
3) they do not use github sponsor anymore. Wonder if this is because they moved to codeberg. Unsure.
4) they wish for contributors to be engaged with the project and to stick long term.
5) they make "sweeping statements" on the quality of AI. Nothing I say here will convince you of anything unless you already agree with me, so I will spare my time and just say that given the point of view here is that AI is actually better than what Zig contributors think it is, and Zig contributors target version bump documentation breaking changes for humans, wouldn't this also directly clash with your idea that breaking changes take up a substantial amount of work for users of Zig? It's one or the other
This goes alongside "the language doesn't own its users" - a claim so ridiculous, the authors themselves have said plenty of times that, for example, if you wish to use AI to develop zig, you can, just not in the compiler project. What have they done which would make you think anyone at ZSF wants control over what you do and how you do it?
Overall I feel like this is complaining for the sake of complaining. I am also willingly going to ignore the blatant AI writing style (I'm sure that's just the way OP writes though) and the site which I feel like I can confidently say with which model and what effort level it was generated.
Do better
komali2 | 45 minutes ago
The latest uproar is because the Big Walk devs copy-pasted a some ChatGPT code into the game, and didn't disclose this on the Steam AI thing (I think it wasn't technically a requirement at the time because it wasn't AI generated art).
On Bluesky, a lot of people are talking about this as a sort of betrayal, and are saying there's no valid LLM usage, that even just using ChatGPT once in this tiny way is verboten.
I saw this exact same thing happen when Framework was cancelled for giving a laptop to DHH. I wrote about it https://blog.calebjay.com/posts/moral-contagion/ , and it's genuinely uncanny to see this replay turn for turn. There's some kind of underlying template going on here.
The properties are the same: a good guy (the Big Walk devs are known for, for example, refusing to publish on Xbox because microsoft is on BDS) dips a toe into a determined Bad, and in doing so, has become infected with an Original Sin or perhaps disease of association with Bad. Moral contagion. There's no difference between Framework giving a laptop to DHH and bringing him on stage and shaking his hand and handing him a million dollars - both actions are identically considered an endorsement of DHH's white supremacy. Similarly, using an LLM a little bit is not only the same as dropping ten thousand lines of slop code into a PR to curl, it's also the same thing as personally drying out a river feeding a poor village next to a new Datacenter, or, creating and posting a racial dogwhistle AI generated video, or chucking a double siege-heil on national telivision, because these things are all proximal to eachother, they touch, they're all contaminated. A leper ethical system.
Now Big Walk is cancelled. Which of course creates obvious incentives: god almighty, do NOT tell people you used a bit of ChatGPT, you'll never be forgiven. Or, fuck it, if you're going to do it, just lean in, because not only have you lost an entire demographic online, somehow just using AI automatically makes you more attractive to another demographic. For example, take a look at some of the Malfoid content on youtube, a lot of it intermixes American right wing iconography with their videos, since for whatever reason a lot of American right wingers identify with the trend.
Which to me means a lot of political identity is getting wrapped up in this. You can't talk to these people, you'll get hit with a "fuck right off" or "supporting fascism? Well that's certainly a Choice." Dogmatism reduces ability to critically think, but it doesn't matter, maintaining these boundaries is how a lot of people protect these online spaces they've created. They incidentally incorporate these companies they perceived as also within that space - Framework for its right to repair / green work, Big Walk for its BDS stuff and other left-aligned things they do - so there's not just a moral contagion aspect, but also a betrayal.
Which leads to my final thing I've noticed here, and others too: these erstwhile ideological allies are punished far more severely than objectively worse actors. Data centers suck up some water, sure, but the worse contributors to human caused climate change are oil and gas companies, who actively lobby to maintain their polluting industries over green alternatives (and even publish misinformation to do so). So why then is a person who drives a car instead of taking a bike or public transit not also tainted by moral contagion? What about people who buy clothing from sweatshop factories? Or the endless other evils under capitalism. Well because those companies aren't betraying us, they're just doing what evil capitalist companies are expected to! There's no betrayal.
So the end result is that good actors face far more scrutiny and can't make the smallest mistake, and all this online activist energy is burnt away attacking erstwhile allies and then purity-purging any of their own members who push back on this in the slightest. It's really frustrating to see this happening again with LLM usage, which "Lula's army" winning against Bolsanaro in Brazil (leveraging social media and AI-created content) conclusively proved that the left wing can use these tools to forward left-aligned goals.
tkel | 7 minutes ago
If you start with a premise, then exaggerate to a dramatic degree, then your deductions don't actually follow from the premise, they only follow from the (unreal) exaggeration
acwulff | 43 minutes ago