It was okay when Germany did it, but not when Spain does it.
At one point about 50% of the global profit of German auto manufacturers came from China. So China was employing lots of Germans and adding bucketloads of cash to Germany's GDP.
But Germany couldn't keep up and lost market share. Now it wants the consumers of other European countries to pay more for Chinese goods to force the Chinese to buy more German goods.
Germany is the reason why since the GFC the U.S. economy is 35% larger than the EU. PPP is also larger, while economic recovery was also faster. When everything when downhill, Germany did not support economic measure to stimulate growth and speed up recovery. Their austerity during that time is what killed the entire European economy. Fast forward to today, Germany realized the economy is stagnant and in decline so they decided to pump 600bn EUR for the next years… guess what? Way too late and now European is trailing behind and doesn’t look like there’s going to be any come back anytime soon. Everyone knows that in times of weakness you overspend and in times of prosperity you save up. The Germans did everything wrong. I have 0 sympathy for Germany and their selfish decisions throughout the worst economic crisis since the crack of 29.
I can understand the criticism, but I'd be weary of blaming German austerity. We'll never know for sure, but a stimulus that fails short can be devastating to an economy (basically burning cash for nothing if it fails) and we don't know if the EU could have injected enough Euro in the economy to make it work.
It's pretty clear imo. While interest rates were 0% after the 2008 economic crash Merkel decided to pay off debt instead of investing in our infrastructure which was already in bad shape 18 years ago. Most countries with common sense are using anticyclonic policies.
Well, their fervor in asking for cuts in education showed they knew exactly what they were doing. Many economists advised against it, but Germany dragged us all down anyway.
Why are you blaming Germany for austerity? There was no support for bailing out corrupt states anywhere in Northern Europe. And those are still the most successful countries in Europe.
Do you think blindly throwing money at structural problems would've changed the institutional rot?
This has nothing to do with Keynes. Keynes believed in balanced budgets, at least during balancing them out during the economic cycle. He also strongly believed that during good times, reserves should be built.
Where is that happening or was happening during the eurocrisis?
Germany isn't in Northern Europe at all? Germany is Central Europe. Northern Europe is the UK, Scandinavia, and maybe the Baltics depending on who you ask.
Finlands economy is fucked, for example, because they cut themselves off from cheap Russian imports.
Let's then say that Northern Europe is very similar in values when it comes to fiscal issues with Germany.
Finland's economy is hardly fucked and what's hurting it most is the war Russia started not the trade with Russia it lost.
Finland simply became uncompetitive and ran up government spending to compensate for too long. And as everyone else, is getting their ass handed to them by China.
Finland has incredibly high wages and generous social programs. That's becomes a drag when you are losing business.
They've been getting these hits since NOKIA. They are too rigid for their own good sometimes, but they'll bounce back.
You can't really call a country with a median salary of €3,615 fucked in the EU context imo.
I don't see what the difference between the war and the loss of trade. They're the same thing. Finland, like the rest of the EU, cut everything with Russia. The nearer a country was the Russia, the more important Russia was to their economy.
Finland did not 'simply' become uncompetitive. It's energy prices trebles because it lost Russian gas. It's the same in Germany. Why is the German manufacturing sector fucked? It lost cheap Russian energy now it can't compete. This is terminal.
You can call it fucked because it only gets worse. Finland is just the worst example of it, they needed Russia, cut Russia off, now they are fucked. All that high income, high trust, social support cannot exist in the long term without cheap energy.
Yes, this is common knowledge. Germany and France made sure other european countries who entered the EU had to give up any industrial asset that could challenge their own.
I hope to see Stellantis, VW group and BMW eaten by China someday.
You will need to use auto-translate for this link, but it has so many other references. Numbers don't lie.
Before joining EU, Spain was the 8th world's most industrialized economy. It had to drop that position as a condition to "integrate in EU" (basically so spanish industries would not compete against French and German ones).
The results of that were a huge social crisis, stagnant wages for decades, several economic crisis, etc.
It is now that Spain has found new niches (energy, 3rd sector, advanced agrifood sector, solar) or further developed existing niches (tourism, naval,etc) and it's again climbing up a bit. The "increasing trade with China" is just part of that push, and it's helping automotive and food industries, as well as helping develop solar.
More like Spain had to restore democracy to join the EC. If they de-industrialized it was likely for the same reason eastern Europe de-industrialized when the the soviet empire imploded. Dictatorship and innovation tend to not go together.
Please don´t enter the conversation if you don´t have at least a remote idea of what you talking about. Where is Spain? What year Spain got democracy? What year Spain entered EU? Are you mentally challenged?
Por qué pides ejemplos si luego lo que te interesa es vender tu libro? Alemania torpedeó toda la industria Europea que le haría competencia pero es que encima, fue la Troika la que obligó a vender los muelles a China cuando quiso aplicar la austeridad en ciertos países. Ahora Alemania como siempre, echa balones fuera y carga las culpas de SU GESTIÓN DE MIERDA, a sus vecinos.
Still sour about the imposed austerity after 2009 I guess. The thing though that Spain's economy was severely lopsided. If I recall correctly circa 2005 something like 25% of the labour force work construction. Correcting the imbalance would have been painful regardless. If Spain was willing to drop out of the Euro the recovery would probably have been faster but the adjustment much more sharp and severe. Greece seems to be doing well.
Let's ignore how the implementation of the Euro benefited mostly the German economy which created a massive trade deficit in Southern Europe and left the region very vulnerable to the 2008 recession. We had to fix that structural deficit with an internal devaluation that was brutal instead of doing what Draghi did in 2008 like the Americans did.
Now Germans are the ones who have to deal with this issue and so far their only solution is to raise tariffs. Go and figure
Why do you think Spain would have liked the arrangement where they're dead-weight and Germany is the economic engine? I don't think anyone wants to be a dead-weight and they'd work on changing that.
Spain is not performing because of shit institutions and laws. Spain could turn around very quickly with the right kind of reforms. I'd say it probably has the most underutilized potential out of every EU country.
Germans are becoming nazis again, basically working for putin. Spain is a multiracial, social-oriented democracy that embraces immigration. I know who I support
Spain's real GDP growth rate for 2025 was 2.6% (confirmed by the Spanish statistical office, INE), while the United States' real GDP growth rate for 2025 was 2.1%
Spain is still doing quite well by European standards, but its growth is expected to slow down next year, and there’s really no comparison to U.S productivity, with its double digit unemployment rate against US 4%.
Sure, but it’s not “destroyed.” Also I don’t trust the current unemployment numbers here- I know way too many people that have dropped out of the workforce entirely or are subsisting on low wage gig work.
It's even worse than that. They had solid EVs years before China did. Folks were fawning after the i8. The i3 was a decent around-town runabout for anyone looking for a second car in California. What the hell happened?
Spain is smart. They've seen what trying to please everyone else looks like. Instead they are taking the path that benefits their people the most. I respect that.
If Spain was smart, their population would not be complaining about low wages all the time and the brightest would not leave the country. It's a chronic issue and ultimately keeps Spain stuck where it is.
Today, Spaniards are somewhat poorer than Germans. 50 years ago, they were an order of magnitude poorer. The reason the gap closed so much is that towards the end of the regime, Franco's autarky project was ditched in favor of an open trade policy.
I can see why Spaniards would be reluctant to listen to the sirens of protectionism once more
Cuando un alemán necesita la ayuda de sus hijos, porque no le alcanza sólo con su pensión, para poder vivir en un pueblo de 15000 habitantes en el noroeste de España, algo muy malo está pasando en Alemania.
You’ve got Vox and PP to thank for that, because any progress the country makes, they fight against it. Spain is “stuck where it is” because its history of dictatorship and the people unwilling to let go of fantasising about being fucked in the ass by Franco and his goons, they believe they are the elected few who can fuck the population. This is why they have targeted the current government, because the current government is trying to do something other then masturbate over Franco statues.
Spain has lots of sun. China has very cheap and good solar technology they want to export. EU needs a new energy model desperately.
German car companies are fluking, chinese car companies are surging. And Spain is a big exporter of cars.
USA has proven to be unreliable under the influence of MAGA. China offers a stable position. Trump might go out, but his younger acolytes are gonna stay in politics for decades to come, and around 30% of USA is "hardcore MAGA for life".
The whole EU is stranded between superpowers, and we still has no reliable reaction beyond "strong worded letters". The internal EU market is huge, but messy, and the EU push to improve it might take a solid decade.
What do you expect? The EU should reconsider its position inside of this new multipolar world, and start looking to defend its own stability and interests, EU's biggest ally is threatening them every month (it's not an ally anymore).
Personally, I don't mind Spain doing business with China at all when it comes to green tech and even cars. They would be fools to not take advantage of the green energy boom. In fact they absolutely should. The fact that Germany failed in the very industry they pushed in Europe is not the fault of Spain.
My only issue would be tech that's used for surveillance etc. Something strategically important. The question here is what is Spain giving up in exchange.
So your issue is surveillance, even though Europe does it to its own citizens and US tech companies have been doing it for years? You're not a serious person.
It's the same story as when Ireland took all the american IT market for Europe. Well, I think Ireland grabbed a lot more profits that whatever Spain will make with this.
No one is actually angry at Spain. Why wouldn’t they be allowed to to have trade relations.
This article is just your usual sinophobic content, written because the west is losing power to China for beating them at their own capitalist game (as a communist country, btw).
They are not a communist country. Communism is a utopia communists strive to achive.
China is (like Japan and South Korea did a while ago) a state (heavily) subsidised capitalist country that only perfected what Japan (as a capitalist country) did in 70's and 80's.
Though they still say that state capitalism is officially only just a step in the path towards communism (thus justifying the fact that private actors still have to abide by the rules and control of the CCP).
It is their interpretations. But I doubt something made of combination of STATE and CAPITALISM is a step on a path towards communism.... seems more like the opposite of communism as there should be no STATE and no CAPITALISM in a communist utopia.
Clear example of communists using double-think, imo.
State-led capitalism was tried already and it didn't bear the results Asian countries expected. China has only three advantages in comparison.... they have more people and more resources than South Korea or Japan, they can learn from mistakes of South Korea and Japan and they have the money from trade with the West to subsideze some of the more ambitionus ideas they have..... but I doubt any of this will yield results and I worry America's bilionaires will eventually prevail and be the number one threat as communist rule in China will endanger its own growth in a few coming years.
>It is their interpretations. But I doubt something made of combination of STATE and CAPITALISM is a step on a path towards communism.... seems more like the opposite of communism as there should be no STATE and no CAPITALISM in a communist utopia.
Make no mistake, the CCP is still being run by ideological communists/Leninists. There are some signs of China reverting.
It's a very interesting case study for sure, but it's important to note that while China got more open, the West itself got more restrictive at the same time.
They're scared of Pedro Sanchez taking inspiration from China on the things that work there (you can disagree with a lot of China's government - but you can't deny that they've had a lot of good policies too)
China seems like one of the few countries who prepare for the economic crisis that are coming, and the most rational thing other countries can do out of pure self-interest. We've participated and allied with other countries that has acted evil and violated all the things we judge China for in the name of self interest, and I can't see why this is worse
They're not scared, they're angry. There's a trade war going on, and the only way to win is as a united Europe.
If Pedro, hijo de puta, Sanchez helps the Chinese evade tarrifs.. Then he fucks over the entire European car market. It's not like the rest of Europe can easily put a tarrif on Spanish made cars now, right?
This are the kinda things that might make a split of Northern/Southern Europe a thing in the future
They're angry and scared. I'm not anti-euopean, but most leaders of the Europe are aligned with the elites and not the people. Sanchez inspires leftists all over Europe, and that's what scares them, because they know they'll lose if people unite. The English (Cromwell), French, and Russian Revolution proved it - and that's why they out of fear agreed to the class compromises of the 20s-50s that built the welfare states
But like always, the elites start to over reach until society collapse. The Fall of the Roman and Qing Empires were both results of wealth concentration and the detachment from the elites towards the people
Lmao this has to be a pedro sanchez burner bc there is NO way a person with no political stakes tied to Sanchez would write such a huge amount of bs voluntarily
Standing up to Trump, protecting the economy, handling the shadow war attack on Cuelta etc. He's probably not perfect as the rest of us don't follow Spanish domestic politics, but he's obviously popular. You might not see it as much in pop culture yet, but most leftists parties in Europe are starting to follow what his coalition are doing and how popular he's becoming within Spain. This is just an observation, you can disagree with his policies, but this is what they rest of the European left see
Standing up to Trump.. Eh, I'll give him that. Rest of NATO is being political and waiting out his term, he's more rash in order to score voter points. Is that a good or bad thing... idk.
Economy is fucked, he hasn't protected shit in the last 8 years. Just walk the streets, talk to the people, everyone is angry. Wages are low, taxes high, prices went up and the housing market is fucked massively.
Attack on Ceuta, he's facing incredibly backlash because of his mismanagement of that situation. I haven't met a single person yet who had something poaitive to say on how he handled it.
So no, he's not popular. He basically lost the elections, but managed to stay in a shaky majority by making massive concessions to the "independence" parties, which backfired massively since they realised their massive bargaining power early on and are uaing Pedro as their Bitch.
Which can be seen in how they shot down his latest rental law.
So once again.. What has he actually achieved? Dividing NATO? Is that a good thing now?
Yep, France and German policies during the economic recession pretty much left most of Europe in a decade-long recession for their own benefit. Now that Germany's automobile industry WILLINGLY stagnated while outsourcing all its production to China (again, for its own benefit) is going to completely collapse, they want unity (again, for it its own benefit). FAFO.
Isn't everyone cozying up to China since the US ended most of their soft power by destroying USAID? Polls certainly show at least in most developing countries, especially where China has projects to improve lives, they view China far more positively than the US.
I would say the opposite. Many African nations finally respects America, because a lot of these NGOs were undermining their authority, creating parallel governance networks, implementing policies that is completely against their culture and traditions, destroying the local industry through donations etc.
Eh, just by watching China in Africa, I can believe there's some truth to that.
The strings attached to trade with China are often more culturally palatable than those from the West.
There's a sort of colonialist tinge to it that Westerners themselves don't often understand. But many countries that suffered under colonialism are ultra sensitive to. It rubs people the wrong way even among relations between European countries.
I doubt the Trump admin killed the evangelical networks that for example played a large part in Uganda's anti-homosexuality law, I suppose that's a form of soft power too. I don't know if pulled away from Ebola or Aids protection earns more goodwill than beforehand either. Yeah because the Trump administration isn't interested in influencing political outcomes in other countries XD, funny
China has projects to get access to minerals and deposits they want. Plus there's a mountain of cases where the infrastructure China builds there starts to crumble only a few years later.
What about when western infrastructure projects go ahead? And then it turns out they're full of cooties? And the western engineers have replaced all the toilets by toilets with tiny holes that you can't flush 💩 into?
Honestly I'd rather be friends with china than with the USA, even without Donald trump the USA is the most dangerous and destabilizing force in the world, constantly meddling everywhere while the Chinese have a international policy of no intervention.
Imo the whole world should boycott the USA they should be left alone with Israel...
What European technology? The US and China lead Europe in almost all critical areas of technology. That's exactly the problem here. Europe isn't the technological powerhouse it once was. One look at the defense industry can tell you that.
What’s good for Germany is not good for Spain, it’s simply the fact. Germany was an economic powerhouse while Spain was the poor neighbor, which means it should have no say in foreign policy. It’s how the EU works, but of course it chafes if you are Spain. Going to be trouble down the road.
Germany has a strong leadership in many industries. Their car and chemical industry are in a rough spot but they still lead plenty of industries and I bet they will figure out what to do next
The 40 years of democratic mismanagement in Spain are not Germany's fault. And this is coming from a Spaniard.
I don't oppose not having a sinophobic foreign policy (and no one in the EU should looking how the States are treating us) but I heavily oppose this germanophic narrative that some people try to push.
Germany will be one of Spain's main trading partners and allies for the forseeable future and I have a deep respect and admiration for Germans and their industrial progress.
imho, mosre countries of EU should look into stable partnerships with stable countries. The USA is not that right now. And MAGA movement is roughly 30% of americans and will stay there even if/when Trump loses power. This means more "trump-like" acolytes will influence the US politics for decades to come.
China might not share some of our values, but at least offers stability, a big economy to trade with, advanced industries in some fields (electrical and solar, which Spain can leverage a lot),
China also has a solid presence in Africa (which is an asset for Spain, being the southern border of EU), and some hard power if need be. Remember that Morocco is an USA ally btw, so USA ain't interested in helping Spain with its border issues. You want to control migration? Then China has some keys to bypass moroccan "willingness", given the power it has in large areas of sub-saharan Africa... Indeed, in the recent episode of Ceuta, China shared some intelligence data with Spain to help with the situation.
Speaking of security. China is Russia's neighbour, and has it "grabbed by the balls". China probably has some power to control Russia if it becomes more aggressive towards Spain, even if it is with economic measures.
China has also shown its willingness to trade with Spain, saving the spanish car industry that was depending on the now languishing german car industry. It has even "rescued/bought" some spanish automotive companies (Ebro). How long will it take until german "das auto" industry manages to recover, if it ever does? A decade or two? And should Spain wait in good faith and hunger, while keeping the recent memory of "austericide"?
This being said, there are sensitive things that shouldn't be shared with any foreign powers. Starting by data management and telecommunications. Spain did a huge mistake there, let's not be naive.
The whole EU should learn some of these lessons...
This article is pure nonsense as most of the comments about German hate... there's nothing in the article indicating that but still most of comments in this post discuss it? bots or idiots IDK... On the other side, one of the main EU objectives with China is attracting investment in addition to balancing trading, looks like Spain got some of that, therefore what's wrong about it?
Yeah Chinese bots all over the internet these days, including Reddit. China glazing everywhere. A country that was secure in itself wouldn’t need to repress its people from free speech and then turn around and pump out propaganda to convince the outside world that they are the future. I’ve lived there for years and it’s way worse on the inside than most westerners can fathom.
Spain has always been a basket case in Europe. If you are European country, Spain is likely your least dependable ally without a doubt. They only care about themselves.
I'm not German or Spanish but its kinda insane how much hate Germany gets for everything when it's definitely not only a German thing. I guess Germany learned that bailing out your failing friends make you a mortal enemy 😅.
Not saying Spain is wrong here, but just wild that an article about Spain and China, and the EU is only Germany bashing.
No one is saying you have to kneel, but 1) they also bailed several countries, 2) its wild to paint them as villains there. As if they, also going through a heavy recession, would like to spend hundreds of billions to bail people out. Of course they are going to demand changes. If you don't like it, the best thing to do is to ensure to not be in such a position. Either way, its wild to see that providing a bailout apparently makes you a villain. If they had done the opposite, refuse to do anything and let the countries go bankrupt, they would be villainess for that decision (betraying friends etc).
Nobody is calling them villains for helping but although they did help a lot the people also suffered a lot at the same time conforming to their rules and you know they end up benefiting from the economy not crashing around them.
So now if you ask the same people that have been living in mediocrity to stand down when better opportunies appear that just makes you the villain and pulling the "we helped you so stand down and help us now" card just sounds like blackmail.
The german push for "austericide" after the real state crisis, when there were clear signs that a more keynesian solution was better, has left a lot of the southerners bitter.
I understand the average german is not guilty of this. This is purely politics and bankers. But tell this to the middle and low classes who saw their future gone to the trash because "calling out on the PIIGS" was a popular populism thing back on the day. Specially millenials, who had to face "migrate or die in misery" situations when they were just incorporating into adult life.
The case of buying russian gas after Crimea, which somehow helped Russia hit Ukraine, hasn't helped either.
That's geopolitics. Every country operates in self interest and that slowly destroys the very fabric of society.
Again, the average german has zero guilt on this. The german government in the other hand has been "less than exemplary" towards the PIIGS in the last few decades. We should add the dutch government to this list too.
Frenchies aren't happy either, for their own reasons, and some of them are right (the constant economic bikering for defense and energy models).
Then you got the "let's ditch nuclear and go full coal" movement, which, for anybody knowing a hint of how climate change goes, is enraging beyond belief.
Germans aren't guilty, but this is the state of things... If we could just become a real federation.... ahh....
I think its fully fair to be bitter as a milennial. After all, you did not create the mess but are suffering the consequences. However, I think the bitterness should be directed at the own political class, or even parents for letting it get that bad. Germany carries little blame in that. It cost them enormously to do this if you look not just at direct money spent, but also how much the ECBs policies have actually cost countries like Germany over the years (it was not advantageous for them to have this level of QE).
Should there have been other reforms at the time? Perhaps, but ultimately Germany didn't choose the policies all those years. Each time parents/grandparents chose to prioritise their own benefit, comfort, over proper reforms and a balanced book, they took a knife to the future of their children. They deserve the bitterness, Germany was purely a passenger of the euro crisis who had to step in, and did so in a potentially harsh manner. Mind you, I have plenty of grievances with my own country's boomer generation, who could retire at 60 with last-earned pay (vs 68 with average pay now) among many other cushy rules that are no longer affordable.
We've had gen Z riots, when do the Millenial riots start? Can't imagine that the millennials outside my own country have the ability to buy a home, live comfortably etc when most of the US doesn't. It's crazy to see two of the most educated generations (Z and Millenials) get shafted harder because of Boomers than Gen X did being emotionally abused by having them as parents/siblings
"While a college degree significantly boosts median earnings and homeownership odds for Millennials, college-educated young adults also face substantial student loan debt and a complex wealth accumulation landscape compared to Boomers at the same age"
Idon't blame Germany nor germans. It's all the politics and bankers here. And political populism.
And let's not forget the role of the spanish politicians themselves, who lead the country to the bubble itself. It's not just that "allies failed to help", it's that "we got into this ourselves" too, and the memory of that is pretty alive. That's the reason the spanish People's Party took a huge hit and hasn't recovered since.
We are also bitter at the older generations. Indeed the debate about boomer's role in the housing crisis is already on the open in Spain.
People at the bottom are rarely to blame. Politicians, corporations, banks, and populism on the other hand...
The sad part is that this has divided EU further, just when all EU countries should stick together like brothers defending their home.
It kinda makes sense, no? Germany is centerpiece of EU. Its not by accident, they are doing everything in their power to stay in center. That means getting all the good and the bad. They have the most influence but at the same time they get the most spotlight.
I get it to a degree but this is not purely Germany v Spain I would say, and yet the majority of comments about Spain, China, and EU are about Germany.
I mean, I am not arguong whether its good or bad, but its exactly the same with world politics and US. You can talk about insurgency in Somalia and people will somehow start talking about biggest country they dont like. Germany is biggest country, with biggest influence, and biggest decision maker. Even though EU is supposed to be equal, its clear that Germany (plus France) holds the most power. Its like on a job when something bad happens, you will often blame it on the boss. Thats atleast my take
Its always the same. Whenever energy policy comes up everyone piles on Germany for shutting off nuclear plants while Italy did exactly the same but noone seems to care.
They bailed no-one. They won billions in debt while gaining a lot of trade and political capital.
Then when they fucked up with the gas and russia the rest of europe has to share and follow them.
Divide and conquer, right? As long as the EU operates through unanimity, China simply has to befriend one EU nation to block any action.
Just read up on the bullshit that China has been allowed to do for the past 20 years: joint venture coercion, state-backed corporate espionage, ... No other nation would have gotten away with it.
Spain is Europe’s weak link. It fundamentally depends on the alliance it refuses to properly contribute to. Instead of living up to its collective defense agreements, uniquely, it is instead continuing to prioritize local populist spending policies.
Now it is yet again undermining the EU, this time economically, by engaging in bilateral trade conversations with China literally right as the bloc is entering major trade discussions with China.
Not a team player militarily or economically. At least they make you feel welcome as a tourist.
Edit: Incredible emotional reaction to the facts I have stated. Makes it clear these facts need to be spread much further. Thank you for giving me the inspiration to do this. I would not have otherwise.
Fundamentally depends on the military agreements of the EU? For what? The eastern border of the EU presents zero risk to Spain, yet it still invests in and helps members and has promised to come to defend its allies.
Meanwhile, those same allies have excluded Spain's southern border from the mutual defense agreements, and whenever there's a crisis, they blame Spain, and governments scream to throw the country out of the EU or Schengen.
When the chinese shock of the 2000's wiped out Italy and Spain's textile and toys industries you were saying that we should focuse on boosting productivity and not to focus on those sectors because you were exporting a lot to China.
Now that the chinese are after your industries you want everyone to stop buying their cheaper products and be forced to buy yours. This is one of the dumbest positions I have seen a person take in a while
Lmao literally who do you think I am? You are projecting insanely with this - completely swinging at air. “Your industries” ? My guy, I have zero clue what you are talking about.
How is negotiating with the second largest economy in the world “undermining”??? And the next world economic power
Western imperialism is over, the 200 year blip in history is returning to the normal. Better for Spain to be on the right side than the other idiot nations.
Spain belongs to the EU. The EU is negotiating with China as a whole. Spain having a 1:1 with China on the side hurts EU in the bigger conversation it’s having with China.
This is not a knock on China. It is pointing out that Spain is a part of the EU and is a part of NATO.
In both organizations, it is undermining its commitments to the organization.
No. You are starting a fight where there is none. If you want to go here, then I’d say it is exactly in China’s interest to split off Spain because EU is threatening tariffs. Accordingly, this makes your comment disingenuous.
Did the EU do jackshit to solve the trade imbalances the euro created, to protect textile manufacturing during the first China shock or the 2008 financial crisis?
Now that we have a competitive advantage due low energy cost you want to slow down investment in the country to not compete against you
The fact that you get downvoted so much for stating an opinion that is certainly somewhat based in reality makes me think this sub is brigades by Chinese bots.
You are fully correct: Spain refuses to increase defense spending for NATO. It is also true that EU and China are heading for a collision course on trade, and China is trying to circumvent EU rules by doing final assembly in Spain. No judgement on the strategy from Spain here but you are speaking facts.
Yes it's true that United States of A is becoming a worse trading partner, but some short term gain in jobs at home is not worth the long time hollowing out of whole industries.
CertainCertainties | 22 hours ago
It was okay when Germany did it, but not when Spain does it.
At one point about 50% of the global profit of German auto manufacturers came from China. So China was employing lots of Germans and adding bucketloads of cash to Germany's GDP.
But Germany couldn't keep up and lost market share. Now it wants the consumers of other European countries to pay more for Chinese goods to force the Chinese to buy more German goods.
I can understand Spain's reluctance.
calefa | 12 hours ago
Germans gonna german. 5 more years of stagnation and all those tanks they are building in VW plants will invade Europe again.
turkishdickenergy | 21 hours ago
Germany has been EUs economic engine since forever meanwhile Spain is been basically dead-weight.
coperstrauss | 15 hours ago
Germany is the reason why since the GFC the U.S. economy is 35% larger than the EU. PPP is also larger, while economic recovery was also faster. When everything when downhill, Germany did not support economic measure to stimulate growth and speed up recovery. Their austerity during that time is what killed the entire European economy. Fast forward to today, Germany realized the economy is stagnant and in decline so they decided to pump 600bn EUR for the next years… guess what? Way too late and now European is trailing behind and doesn’t look like there’s going to be any come back anytime soon. Everyone knows that in times of weakness you overspend and in times of prosperity you save up. The Germans did everything wrong. I have 0 sympathy for Germany and their selfish decisions throughout the worst economic crisis since the crack of 29.
mahaanus | 14 hours ago
I can understand the criticism, but I'd be weary of blaming German austerity. We'll never know for sure, but a stimulus that fails short can be devastating to an economy (basically burning cash for nothing if it fails) and we don't know if the EU could have injected enough Euro in the economy to make it work.
Parcours97 | 13 hours ago
It's pretty clear imo. While interest rates were 0% after the 2008 economic crash Merkel decided to pay off debt instead of investing in our infrastructure which was already in bad shape 18 years ago. Most countries with common sense are using anticyclonic policies.
Competitive-Hair7499 | 8 hours ago
Tell me what countries are you speaking about exactly? And then tell me how sustainable their debt is at this very moment.
orkgashmo | 13 hours ago
Well, their fervor in asking for cuts in education showed they knew exactly what they were doing. Many economists advised against it, but Germany dragged us all down anyway.
Competitive-Hair7499 | 10 hours ago
Funny how the more austere countries have top ranks in education huh?
Africaspaceman | an hour ago
Cuáles son y cuál es la relación directa entre austeridad y educación
Optimal-Golf-8270 | 8 hours ago
We did both? We burnt so much money with quantitative easing, and also cut everything to the bone.
The money did nothing, and now the formerly world leading infrastructure and services in Europe are slowly corroding.
Competitive-Hair7499 | 10 hours ago
Why are you blaming Germany for austerity? There was no support for bailing out corrupt states anywhere in Northern Europe. And those are still the most successful countries in Europe.
Do you think blindly throwing money at structural problems would've changed the institutional rot?
Artifexa | 8 hours ago
Keynes believed so.
And turns out he was right.
Competitive-Hair7499 | 7 hours ago
This has nothing to do with Keynes. Keynes believed in balanced budgets, at least during balancing them out during the economic cycle. He also strongly believed that during good times, reserves should be built.
Where is that happening or was happening during the eurocrisis?
Artifexa | 6 hours ago
https://economistasfrentealacrisis.com/how-keynes-would-solve-the-eurozone-crisis/
Optimal-Golf-8270 | 8 hours ago
They were the most successful. Now they've lost access to cheap Russian energy, not so true anymore.
Europe was kept competitive by cheap Russian imports. Now that's gone, we're all fucked.
Competitive-Hair7499 | 8 hours ago
They still are, in terms of economic complexity, education, innovation etc. Still dominant. Germany is not the only country in Northern Europe.
And Russian energy is not the important part here, it mostly hurt the chemical industry, but they are all multinationals anyway.
The reasons are more policy related than anything else. Lack of foresight of the executive and political classes.
Optimal-Golf-8270 | 8 hours ago
Germany isn't in Northern Europe at all? Germany is Central Europe. Northern Europe is the UK, Scandinavia, and maybe the Baltics depending on who you ask.
Finlands economy is fucked, for example, because they cut themselves off from cheap Russian imports.
Competitive-Hair7499 | 7 hours ago
Let's then say that Northern Europe is very similar in values when it comes to fiscal issues with Germany.
Finland's economy is hardly fucked and what's hurting it most is the war Russia started not the trade with Russia it lost.
Finland simply became uncompetitive and ran up government spending to compensate for too long. And as everyone else, is getting their ass handed to them by China.
Finland has incredibly high wages and generous social programs. That's becomes a drag when you are losing business.
They've been getting these hits since NOKIA. They are too rigid for their own good sometimes, but they'll bounce back.
You can't really call a country with a median salary of €3,615 fucked in the EU context imo.
Optimal-Golf-8270 | 7 hours ago
I don't see what the difference between the war and the loss of trade. They're the same thing. Finland, like the rest of the EU, cut everything with Russia. The nearer a country was the Russia, the more important Russia was to their economy.
Finland did not 'simply' become uncompetitive. It's energy prices trebles because it lost Russian gas. It's the same in Germany. Why is the German manufacturing sector fucked? It lost cheap Russian energy now it can't compete. This is terminal.
You can call it fucked because it only gets worse. Finland is just the worst example of it, they needed Russia, cut Russia off, now they are fucked. All that high income, high trust, social support cannot exist in the long term without cheap energy.
Competitive-Hair7499 | 7 hours ago
You are thinking in very ''low value add'' terms and it's clear you don't have grasp of what Nordic countries actually do.
And you also don't have any idea of how trade with Russia actually works.
I suggest you read up about it a bit.
They don't build datacenters in Finland because the energy is expensive, it has the some of the lowest industrial energy prices in Europe.
Africaspaceman | 21 hours ago
Alemania era el motor porque torpedeaba la industria en europa que podía hacerle competencia.
Parcours97 | 13 hours ago
What?
GaseosaPorongol | 12 hours ago
Yes, this is common knowledge. Germany and France made sure other european countries who entered the EU had to give up any industrial asset that could challenge their own.
I hope to see Stellantis, VW group and BMW eaten by China someday.
Competitive-Hair7499 | 10 hours ago
Any examples?
Artifexa | 8 hours ago
Spain's dairy industry.
Spain's steel industry.
Many others.
You will need to use auto-translate for this link, but it has so many other references. Numbers don't lie.
Before joining EU, Spain was the 8th world's most industrialized economy. It had to drop that position as a condition to "integrate in EU" (basically so spanish industries would not compete against French and German ones).
The results of that were a huge social crisis, stagnant wages for decades, several economic crisis, etc.
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconversi%C3%B3n_industrial
It is now that Spain has found new niches (energy, 3rd sector, advanced agrifood sector, solar) or further developed existing niches (tourism, naval,etc) and it's again climbing up a bit. The "increasing trade with China" is just part of that push, and it's helping automotive and food industries, as well as helping develop solar.
Competitive-Hair7499 | 8 hours ago
Interesting topic, I'll read about it a bit..
I know of similar examples in other countries but they were industries that would've died anyway.
devliegende | 5 hours ago
More like Spain had to restore democracy to join the EC. If they de-industrialized it was likely for the same reason eastern Europe de-industrialized when the the soviet empire imploded. Dictatorship and innovation tend to not go together.
GaseosaPorongol | 3 hours ago
Please don´t enter the conversation if you don´t have at least a remote idea of what you talking about. Where is Spain? What year Spain got democracy? What year Spain entered EU? Are you mentally challenged?
devliegende | 42 minutes ago
If you don't know where Spain is you should just google it. No need to get all emotional.
Africaspaceman | an hour ago
Por qué pides ejemplos si luego lo que te interesa es vender tu libro? Alemania torpedeó toda la industria Europea que le haría competencia pero es que encima, fue la Troika la que obligó a vender los muelles a China cuando quiso aplicar la austeridad en ciertos países. Ahora Alemania como siempre, echa balones fuera y carga las culpas de SU GESTIÓN DE MIERDA, a sus vecinos.
devliegende | 46 minutes ago
Still sour about the imposed austerity after 2009 I guess. The thing though that Spain's economy was severely lopsided. If I recall correctly circa 2005 something like 25% of the labour force work construction. Correcting the imbalance would have been painful regardless. If Spain was willing to drop out of the Euro the recovery would probably have been faster but the adjustment much more sharp and severe. Greece seems to be doing well.
Trackback_ | 15 hours ago
Exactly, Germany has been reaping all the benefits since forever, and are big mad someone else might be trying to do so as well
Creative_Strike8202 | 13 hours ago
Let's ignore how the implementation of the Euro benefited mostly the German economy which created a massive trade deficit in Southern Europe and left the region very vulnerable to the 2008 recession. We had to fix that structural deficit with an internal devaluation that was brutal instead of doing what Draghi did in 2008 like the Americans did. Now Germans are the ones who have to deal with this issue and so far their only solution is to raise tariffs. Go and figure
balc9k | 21 hours ago
Germany is in a turndown since the nordstream blow and Spain is one of the leading winners now
Competitive-Hair7499 | 10 hours ago
This happened way before nordstream.
mahaanus | 14 hours ago
Why do you think Spain would have liked the arrangement where they're dead-weight and Germany is the economic engine? I don't think anyone wants to be a dead-weight and they'd work on changing that.
Competitive-Hair7499 | 10 hours ago
Spain is not performing because of shit institutions and laws. Spain could turn around very quickly with the right kind of reforms. I'd say it probably has the most underutilized potential out of every EU country.
TheLastSamurai101 | 17 hours ago
Even if that were true, what is the relevance to this conversation?
mmso1 | 17 hours ago
The point is, right wing brain rot... Also causes economic rot. Social rot. It's rotten all around.
joeydimaggio | 21 hours ago
Germans are becoming nazis again, basically working for putin. Spain is a multiracial, social-oriented democracy that embraces immigration. I know who I support
mrjowei | 21 hours ago
Spain have their own local Nazi party coming up the ranks. It’s called Vox.
joeydimaggio | 21 hours ago
All countries do, they aren’t making massive gains like in Deutschland
TheLastSamurai101 | 17 hours ago
Yeah, but nobody is growing like AfD.
Areyoucunt | 14 hours ago
Not wanting rape and violence done to your citizens by immigrants from certain countries does not equal nazism. Wtf are you even talking about
orkgashmo | 13 hours ago
No, that's racism, the fuel used by Nazism to excuse everything else. We know and you know, don't try to hide it because you fool no one.
Cookies891 | 20 hours ago
This is quite the hot take 😂
joeydimaggio | 20 hours ago
https://amp.dw.com/en/nord-stream-putins-pipeline-into-german-politics/a-64901745
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/07/opinion/germany-russia-ukraine-energy.html
Positive_County_3493 | 16 hours ago
They banned you for speaking the truth
joeydimaggio | 16 hours ago
It’s cool, I have a way around it ( ;
iLov3musk | 20 hours ago
Embraces immigration? 🤣🤣 thats what destroyed their country. Trump is right about them
joeydimaggio | 20 hours ago
Spain is destroyed?
Spain's real GDP growth rate for 2025 was 2.6% (confirmed by the Spanish statistical office, INE), while the United States' real GDP growth rate for 2025 was 2.1%
turkishdickenergy | 18 hours ago
Spain is still doing quite well by European standards, but its growth is expected to slow down next year, and there’s really no comparison to U.S productivity, with its double digit unemployment rate against US 4%.
joeydimaggio | 18 hours ago
Sure, but it’s not “destroyed.” Also I don’t trust the current unemployment numbers here- I know way too many people that have dropped out of the workforce entirely or are subsisting on low wage gig work.
TheLastSamurai101 | 17 hours ago
I very much doubt Trump could locate Spain on a map.
MekotheSaurus | 10 hours ago
Spain is a multiracial, social-oriented democracy that embraces immigration.
This reads like an insult.
Charming_Raccoon4361 | 16 hours ago
till excessive immigration destroys spain too
joeydimaggio | 16 hours ago
If you can’t compete just go to college or trade school or something. Immigration is great for the economy.
No-Special-8335 | 16 hours ago
Pas au long terme
joeydimaggio | 16 hours ago
Who told you that? The US has benefited tremendously from immigration over hundreds of years.
8ngryW0lf999 | 22 hours ago
Arrogance, entitlement, anxiety, mistrust, insecurity of Germany.
German automakers fell behind because they were banking on the catchet of their marques.
Mercedes Benz : "If third world dictators ride in our cars, how could anybody NOT buy our cars?!!!"
baguasquirrel | 4 hours ago
It's even worse than that. They had solid EVs years before China did. Folks were fawning after the i8. The i3 was a decent around-town runabout for anyone looking for a second car in California. What the hell happened?
Ragebaiterlmao | 20 hours ago
Spain is smart. They've seen what trying to please everyone else looks like. Instead they are taking the path that benefits their people the most. I respect that.
OlympicAnalEater | 20 hours ago
> Instead they are taking the path that benefits their people the most.
I hope the US government did the same thing too 😭
TheLastSamurai101 | 17 hours ago
They did not. They haven't in a while. Unless you define the US as a collection of billionaire, corporatist and military-industrial interest groups.
Competitive-Hair7499 | 8 hours ago
If Spain was smart, their population would not be complaining about low wages all the time and the brightest would not leave the country. It's a chronic issue and ultimately keeps Spain stuck where it is.
slator_hardin | 3 hours ago
Today, Spaniards are somewhat poorer than Germans. 50 years ago, they were an order of magnitude poorer. The reason the gap closed so much is that towards the end of the regime, Franco's autarky project was ditched in favor of an open trade policy.
I can see why Spaniards would be reluctant to listen to the sirens of protectionism once more
Competitive-Hair7499 | an hour ago
I don't think Spain is at a level it should even be compared to Germany tbh.
Africaspaceman | an hour ago
Cuando un alemán necesita la ayuda de sus hijos, porque no le alcanza sólo con su pensión, para poder vivir en un pueblo de 15000 habitantes en el noroeste de España, algo muy malo está pasando en Alemania.
Federal-Salt-270 | 3 hours ago
You’ve got Vox and PP to thank for that, because any progress the country makes, they fight against it. Spain is “stuck where it is” because its history of dictatorship and the people unwilling to let go of fantasising about being fucked in the ass by Franco and his goons, they believe they are the elected few who can fuck the population. This is why they have targeted the current government, because the current government is trying to do something other then masturbate over Franco statues.
Artifexa | 11 hours ago
Spain has lots of sun. China has very cheap and good solar technology they want to export. EU needs a new energy model desperately.
German car companies are fluking, chinese car companies are surging. And Spain is a big exporter of cars.
USA has proven to be unreliable under the influence of MAGA. China offers a stable position. Trump might go out, but his younger acolytes are gonna stay in politics for decades to come, and around 30% of USA is "hardcore MAGA for life".
The whole EU is stranded between superpowers, and we still has no reliable reaction beyond "strong worded letters". The internal EU market is huge, but messy, and the EU push to improve it might take a solid decade.
What do you expect? The EU should reconsider its position inside of this new multipolar world, and start looking to defend its own stability and interests, EU's biggest ally is threatening them every month (it's not an ally anymore).
Competitive-Hair7499 | 8 hours ago
Personally, I don't mind Spain doing business with China at all when it comes to green tech and even cars. They would be fools to not take advantage of the green energy boom. In fact they absolutely should. The fact that Germany failed in the very industry they pushed in Europe is not the fault of Spain.
My only issue would be tech that's used for surveillance etc. Something strategically important. The question here is what is Spain giving up in exchange.
NMiguelCosta-PT | 6 hours ago
So your issue is surveillance, even though Europe does it to its own citizens and US tech companies have been doing it for years? You're not a serious person.
Jisoooya | 4 hours ago
oh no China is using solar panels to spy on us, threat to national security these solar panels
Mrahealpia | 3 hours ago
Straw man.
Artifexa | 8 hours ago
I 100% agree.
There are industries that should be kept tightly inside EU.
the deal with HuaWei was a huge mistake.
marky_Rabone | 6 hours ago
Nada que no este dejando USA
FelizIntrovertido | 12 hours ago
It's the same story as when Ireland took all the american IT market for Europe. Well, I think Ireland grabbed a lot more profits that whatever Spain will make with this.
This is going to last one more year at maximum.
LoneFox4444 | 18 hours ago
No one is actually angry at Spain. Why wouldn’t they be allowed to to have trade relations.
This article is just your usual sinophobic content, written because the west is losing power to China for beating them at their own capitalist game (as a communist country, btw).
Appropriate-Bench528 | 15 hours ago
They are not a communist country. Communism is a utopia communists strive to achive.
China is (like Japan and South Korea did a while ago) a state (heavily) subsidised capitalist country that only perfected what Japan (as a capitalist country) did in 70's and 80's.
SeparateFlounder4246 | 11 hours ago
Though they still say that state capitalism is officially only just a step in the path towards communism (thus justifying the fact that private actors still have to abide by the rules and control of the CCP).
Appropriate-Bench528 | 11 hours ago
It is their interpretations. But I doubt something made of combination of STATE and CAPITALISM is a step on a path towards communism.... seems more like the opposite of communism as there should be no STATE and no CAPITALISM in a communist utopia.
Clear example of communists using double-think, imo.
State-led capitalism was tried already and it didn't bear the results Asian countries expected. China has only three advantages in comparison.... they have more people and more resources than South Korea or Japan, they can learn from mistakes of South Korea and Japan and they have the money from trade with the West to subsideze some of the more ambitionus ideas they have..... but I doubt any of this will yield results and I worry America's bilionaires will eventually prevail and be the number one threat as communist rule in China will endanger its own growth in a few coming years.
Competitive-Hair7499 | 8 hours ago
>It is their interpretations. But I doubt something made of combination of STATE and CAPITALISM is a step on a path towards communism.... seems more like the opposite of communism as there should be no STATE and no CAPITALISM in a communist utopia.
Make no mistake, the CCP is still being run by ideological communists/Leninists. There are some signs of China reverting.
It's a very interesting case study for sure, but it's important to note that while China got more open, the West itself got more restrictive at the same time.
andooet | 12 hours ago
They're scared of Pedro Sanchez taking inspiration from China on the things that work there (you can disagree with a lot of China's government - but you can't deny that they've had a lot of good policies too)
China seems like one of the few countries who prepare for the economic crisis that are coming, and the most rational thing other countries can do out of pure self-interest. We've participated and allied with other countries that has acted evil and violated all the things we judge China for in the name of self interest, and I can't see why this is worse
Offshore-Tigr | 11 hours ago
They're not scared, they're angry. There's a trade war going on, and the only way to win is as a united Europe.
If Pedro, hijo de puta, Sanchez helps the Chinese evade tarrifs.. Then he fucks over the entire European car market. It's not like the rest of Europe can easily put a tarrif on Spanish made cars now, right?
This are the kinda things that might make a split of Northern/Southern Europe a thing in the future
andooet | 10 hours ago
They're angry and scared. I'm not anti-euopean, but most leaders of the Europe are aligned with the elites and not the people. Sanchez inspires leftists all over Europe, and that's what scares them, because they know they'll lose if people unite. The English (Cromwell), French, and Russian Revolution proved it - and that's why they out of fear agreed to the class compromises of the 20s-50s that built the welfare states
But like always, the elites start to over reach until society collapse. The Fall of the Roman and Qing Empires were both results of wealth concentration and the detachment from the elites towards the people
OptimisticRealist__ | 10 hours ago
Lmao this has to be a pedro sanchez burner bc there is NO way a person with no political stakes tied to Sanchez would write such a huge amount of bs voluntarily
Offshore-Tigr | 10 hours ago
I'm sorry, but who exactly dis Pedro inspire and how? What great achievements has he made?
andooet | 10 hours ago
He gets people talking and watching. He's inspiring people all over Europe even if you aren't one of them. Its steadily growing
Offshore-Tigr | 10 hours ago
No he's not haha. Maybe in your little bubble.
And once again, what has he achieved ao far that's so inspiring?
andooet | 9 hours ago
Standing up to Trump, protecting the economy, handling the shadow war attack on Cuelta etc. He's probably not perfect as the rest of us don't follow Spanish domestic politics, but he's obviously popular. You might not see it as much in pop culture yet, but most leftists parties in Europe are starting to follow what his coalition are doing and how popular he's becoming within Spain. This is just an observation, you can disagree with his policies, but this is what they rest of the European left see
Offshore-Tigr | 5 hours ago
Standing up to Trump.. Eh, I'll give him that. Rest of NATO is being political and waiting out his term, he's more rash in order to score voter points. Is that a good or bad thing... idk.
Economy is fucked, he hasn't protected shit in the last 8 years. Just walk the streets, talk to the people, everyone is angry. Wages are low, taxes high, prices went up and the housing market is fucked massively.
Attack on Ceuta, he's facing incredibly backlash because of his mismanagement of that situation. I haven't met a single person yet who had something poaitive to say on how he handled it.
So no, he's not popular. He basically lost the elections, but managed to stay in a shaky majority by making massive concessions to the "independence" parties, which backfired massively since they realised their massive bargaining power early on and are uaing Pedro as their Bitch.
Which can be seen in how they shot down his latest rental law.
So once again.. What has he actually achieved? Dividing NATO? Is that a good thing now?
R-ten-K | 4 hours ago
Psst. China is Germany's top trading partner.
Offshore-Tigr | 4 hours ago
Which is fine, as long as the trade is beneficial.
Inviting Chinese companies to do the final assembly in Spain so that they can bypass tarrifs.. Is not beneficial to the EU.
R-ten-K | 2 hours ago
Is basic self awareness illegal in some parts of Northern Europe?
Offshore-Tigr | 2 hours ago
Not really. If it was, they would have split the EU up long ago between north and south.
R-ten-K | 2 hours ago
<insert "woosh" meme>
Offshore-Tigr | 2 hours ago
I don't get it.
Just like how we're bot grtting any contribution from Spain
R-ten-K | an hour ago
LOL. We are not remotely the same.
DrawingDramatic1641 | 13 hours ago
spain accused of self interest?
so why did spain join eu?
to get equal veto rights and to intrest itself
if spain gets better money for itself with china or any 3rd world,why shall germany be approached?
german cars are losing so they wanna be hard against chinese ev.
i don't think anyone accused of self intrest?
is madrid too far from Brussels?
Tom8hawk | 12 hours ago
So your say that the EU should kick Spain out since it’s no longer benefiting the majority of members to have it in?
DrawingDramatic1641 | 11 hours ago
eu should understand that spain sint gonna be doing that's benefiting german auto while spain loses revenue,
Spain in 2025 had similar gdp as 2008 nearly,they can't do this again.
Germany clearly didn't support spain in their needs
Awyls | 10 hours ago
Yep, France and German policies during the economic recession pretty much left most of Europe in a decade-long recession for their own benefit. Now that Germany's automobile industry WILLINGLY stagnated while outsourcing all its production to China (again, for its own benefit) is going to completely collapse, they want unity (again, for it its own benefit). FAFO.
punarob | 21 hours ago
Isn't everyone cozying up to China since the US ended most of their soft power by destroying USAID? Polls certainly show at least in most developing countries, especially where China has projects to improve lives, they view China far more positively than the US.
Ok_Reach_5004 | 20 hours ago
I would say the opposite. Many African nations finally respects America, because a lot of these NGOs were undermining their authority, creating parallel governance networks, implementing policies that is completely against their culture and traditions, destroying the local industry through donations etc.
TheLastSamurai101 | 17 hours ago
This is you on Trump admin propaganda. I've not heard this take from anyone outside the United States, and for good reason.
Competitive-Hair7499 | 8 hours ago
Eh, just by watching China in Africa, I can believe there's some truth to that.
The strings attached to trade with China are often more culturally palatable than those from the West.
There's a sort of colonialist tinge to it that Westerners themselves don't often understand. But many countries that suffered under colonialism are ultra sensitive to. It rubs people the wrong way even among relations between European countries.
Capable_Chart_1329 | 19 hours ago
I doubt the Trump admin killed the evangelical networks that for example played a large part in Uganda's anti-homosexuality law, I suppose that's a form of soft power too. I don't know if pulled away from Ebola or Aids protection earns more goodwill than beforehand either. Yeah because the Trump administration isn't interested in influencing political outcomes in other countries XD, funny
Ok_Reach_5004 | 3 hours ago
Yeah and they should all be banned. But dismantling USAID was a step in the right direction.
Aggressive-Speed-987 | 13 hours ago
hahahahahahaha
punarob | 3 hours ago
That's nice. But we have data and that's not what the data shows so your personal opinion on the matter is irrelevant.
thegingerskull | 15 hours ago
China has projects to get access to minerals and deposits they want. Plus there's a mountain of cases where the infrastructure China builds there starts to crumble only a few years later.
TupTau | 13 hours ago
Exatly the same like infrastructure build buy USAAID, tons of empty not used schools, wells.
CryptidMothYeti | 13 hours ago
What about when western infrastructure projects go ahead? And then it turns out they're full of cooties? And the western engineers have replaced all the toilets by toilets with tiny holes that you can't flush 💩 into?
What about that?
Vindicador | 5 hours ago
Honestly I'd rather be friends with china than with the USA, even without Donald trump the USA is the most dangerous and destabilizing force in the world, constantly meddling everywhere while the Chinese have a international policy of no intervention.
Imo the whole world should boycott the USA they should be left alone with Israel...
VermicelliOk2963 | 17 minutes ago
South China Sea? Taiwan?
Geigengiger | 12 hours ago
Europe and Asia working together would be the best thing to ever happen to us.
European technology, Russian resources and Chinese production capabilities.
We would be the uncontested economic superhub.
CescQ | 10 hours ago
Fuck Russia
Geigengiger | 6 hours ago
Fuck NATO for creeping up on them for 30 years.
CescQ | an hour ago
I don't remember NATO invading their neighbours because of the imperialist degeneracy of trying to recreate empires of the past.
dark-mathematician1 | 2 hours ago
What European technology? The US and China lead Europe in almost all critical areas of technology. That's exactly the problem here. Europe isn't the technological powerhouse it once was. One look at the defense industry can tell you that.
Zaisengoro | 21 hours ago
What’s good for Germany is not good for Spain, it’s simply the fact. Germany was an economic powerhouse while Spain was the poor neighbor, which means it should have no say in foreign policy. It’s how the EU works, but of course it chafes if you are Spain. Going to be trouble down the road.
gamma55 | 20 hours ago
How long you think we should let Germany ride on old glory? Their economy is a shitshow, and it won’t get better any time soon.
MachineSea3164 | 14 hours ago
Economy is growing this year with 1,4% not bad with the shitshow going around US and Iran.
Could have been way better otherwise.
Creative_Strike8202 | 14 hours ago
Germany has a strong leadership in many industries. Their car and chemical industry are in a rough spot but they still lead plenty of industries and I bet they will figure out what to do next
Creative_Strike8202 | 14 hours ago
The 40 years of democratic mismanagement in Spain are not Germany's fault. And this is coming from a Spaniard. I don't oppose not having a sinophobic foreign policy (and no one in the EU should looking how the States are treating us) but I heavily oppose this germanophic narrative that some people try to push. Germany will be one of Spain's main trading partners and allies for the forseeable future and I have a deep respect and admiration for Germans and their industrial progress.
Artifexa | 11 hours ago
Spaniard here. I agree with your words.
imho, mosre countries of EU should look into stable partnerships with stable countries. The USA is not that right now. And MAGA movement is roughly 30% of americans and will stay there even if/when Trump loses power. This means more "trump-like" acolytes will influence the US politics for decades to come.
China might not share some of our values, but at least offers stability, a big economy to trade with, advanced industries in some fields (electrical and solar, which Spain can leverage a lot),
China also has a solid presence in Africa (which is an asset for Spain, being the southern border of EU), and some hard power if need be. Remember that Morocco is an USA ally btw, so USA ain't interested in helping Spain with its border issues. You want to control migration? Then China has some keys to bypass moroccan "willingness", given the power it has in large areas of sub-saharan Africa... Indeed, in the recent episode of Ceuta, China shared some intelligence data with Spain to help with the situation.
Speaking of security. China is Russia's neighbour, and has it "grabbed by the balls". China probably has some power to control Russia if it becomes more aggressive towards Spain, even if it is with economic measures.
China has also shown its willingness to trade with Spain, saving the spanish car industry that was depending on the now languishing german car industry. It has even "rescued/bought" some spanish automotive companies (Ebro). How long will it take until german "das auto" industry manages to recover, if it ever does? A decade or two? And should Spain wait in good faith and hunger, while keeping the recent memory of "austericide"?
This being said, there are sensitive things that shouldn't be shared with any foreign powers. Starting by data management and telecommunications. Spain did a huge mistake there, let's not be naive.
The whole EU should learn some of these lessons...
R-ten-K | 4 hours ago
>The 40 years of democratic mismanagement in Spain are not Germany's fault.
Holy peak facha sentence Batman!
>Germany will be one of Spain's main trading partners
Meanwhile China is Germany's top trading partner.
>I have a deep respect and admiration for Germans
I suspect that's an old family tradition. LOL
R-ten-K | 4 hours ago
Peak confidently wrong reddit take. The 4th largest economy in the EU is now a "poor neighbor?"
CryptidMothYeti | 13 hours ago
Please learn a bit more before posting garbage like this. I won't have the time to set you right every time!
Elsoci | 10 hours ago
This article is pure nonsense as most of the comments about German hate... there's nothing in the article indicating that but still most of comments in this post discuss it? bots or idiots IDK... On the other side, one of the main EU objectives with China is attracting investment in addition to balancing trading, looks like Spain got some of that, therefore what's wrong about it?
VermicelliOk2963 | 10 minutes ago
Yeah Chinese bots all over the internet these days, including Reddit. China glazing everywhere. A country that was secure in itself wouldn’t need to repress its people from free speech and then turn around and pump out propaganda to convince the outside world that they are the future. I’ve lived there for years and it’s way worse on the inside than most westerners can fathom.
Peketu | 4 hours ago
How can be so stupid in Spain as to be everybody's enemy turning to China and not getting anything in return?
Oh, right! Corruption and all that!
Candid-libertarian | 4 hours ago
Spain has always been a basket case in Europe. If you are European country, Spain is likely your least dependable ally without a doubt. They only care about themselves.
Shot-Fig4715 | 2 hours ago
Good for Spain seeing the truth. The USA is destroying the EU and the people are being sheep and following them on the way down. Spain has woken up.
StockLifter | 15 hours ago
I'm not German or Spanish but its kinda insane how much hate Germany gets for everything when it's definitely not only a German thing. I guess Germany learned that bailing out your failing friends make you a mortal enemy 😅.
Not saying Spain is wrong here, but just wild that an article about Spain and China, and the EU is only Germany bashing.
iwaslurkingforu | 11 hours ago
They bailed the banks, not the people, and forced a change in our constitution. You want us to kneel and thank them?
StockLifter | 11 hours ago
No one is saying you have to kneel, but 1) they also bailed several countries, 2) its wild to paint them as villains there. As if they, also going through a heavy recession, would like to spend hundreds of billions to bail people out. Of course they are going to demand changes. If you don't like it, the best thing to do is to ensure to not be in such a position. Either way, its wild to see that providing a bailout apparently makes you a villain. If they had done the opposite, refuse to do anything and let the countries go bankrupt, they would be villainess for that decision (betraying friends etc).
thefpspower | 8 hours ago
> its wild to paint them as villains there.
Nobody is calling them villains for helping but although they did help a lot the people also suffered a lot at the same time conforming to their rules and you know they end up benefiting from the economy not crashing around them.
So now if you ask the same people that have been living in mediocrity to stand down when better opportunies appear that just makes you the villain and pulling the "we helped you so stand down and help us now" card just sounds like blackmail.
Artifexa | 11 hours ago
The german push for "austericide" after the real state crisis, when there were clear signs that a more keynesian solution was better, has left a lot of the southerners bitter.
I understand the average german is not guilty of this. This is purely politics and bankers. But tell this to the middle and low classes who saw their future gone to the trash because "calling out on the PIIGS" was a popular populism thing back on the day. Specially millenials, who had to face "migrate or die in misery" situations when they were just incorporating into adult life.
The case of buying russian gas after Crimea, which somehow helped Russia hit Ukraine, hasn't helped either.
That's geopolitics. Every country operates in self interest and that slowly destroys the very fabric of society.
Again, the average german has zero guilt on this. The german government in the other hand has been "less than exemplary" towards the PIIGS in the last few decades. We should add the dutch government to this list too.
Frenchies aren't happy either, for their own reasons, and some of them are right (the constant economic bikering for defense and energy models).
Then you got the "let's ditch nuclear and go full coal" movement, which, for anybody knowing a hint of how climate change goes, is enraging beyond belief.
Germans aren't guilty, but this is the state of things... If we could just become a real federation.... ahh....
StockLifter | 10 hours ago
I think its fully fair to be bitter as a milennial. After all, you did not create the mess but are suffering the consequences. However, I think the bitterness should be directed at the own political class, or even parents for letting it get that bad. Germany carries little blame in that. It cost them enormously to do this if you look not just at direct money spent, but also how much the ECBs policies have actually cost countries like Germany over the years (it was not advantageous for them to have this level of QE).
Should there have been other reforms at the time? Perhaps, but ultimately Germany didn't choose the policies all those years. Each time parents/grandparents chose to prioritise their own benefit, comfort, over proper reforms and a balanced book, they took a knife to the future of their children. They deserve the bitterness, Germany was purely a passenger of the euro crisis who had to step in, and did so in a potentially harsh manner. Mind you, I have plenty of grievances with my own country's boomer generation, who could retire at 60 with last-earned pay (vs 68 with average pay now) among many other cushy rules that are no longer affordable.
Financial-Cat2330 | 5 hours ago
We've had gen Z riots, when do the Millenial riots start? Can't imagine that the millennials outside my own country have the ability to buy a home, live comfortably etc when most of the US doesn't. It's crazy to see two of the most educated generations (Z and Millenials) get shafted harder because of Boomers than Gen X did being emotionally abused by having them as parents/siblings
"While a college degree significantly boosts median earnings and homeownership odds for Millennials, college-educated young adults also face substantial student loan debt and a complex wealth accumulation landscape compared to Boomers at the same age"
https://www.pensionpolicyinternational.com/us-millenials-are-the-most-educated-generation-yet-the-most-broke/
Wtf is that about!!!?!? ^
Artifexa | 8 hours ago
Idon't blame Germany nor germans. It's all the politics and bankers here. And political populism.
And let's not forget the role of the spanish politicians themselves, who lead the country to the bubble itself. It's not just that "allies failed to help", it's that "we got into this ourselves" too, and the memory of that is pretty alive. That's the reason the spanish People's Party took a huge hit and hasn't recovered since.
We are also bitter at the older generations. Indeed the debate about boomer's role in the housing crisis is already on the open in Spain.
People at the bottom are rarely to blame. Politicians, corporations, banks, and populism on the other hand...
The sad part is that this has divided EU further, just when all EU countries should stick together like brothers defending their home.
TheGuy839 | 14 hours ago
It kinda makes sense, no? Germany is centerpiece of EU. Its not by accident, they are doing everything in their power to stay in center. That means getting all the good and the bad. They have the most influence but at the same time they get the most spotlight.
StockLifter | 14 hours ago
I get it to a degree but this is not purely Germany v Spain I would say, and yet the majority of comments about Spain, China, and EU are about Germany.
TheGuy839 | 14 hours ago
I mean, I am not arguong whether its good or bad, but its exactly the same with world politics and US. You can talk about insurgency in Somalia and people will somehow start talking about biggest country they dont like. Germany is biggest country, with biggest influence, and biggest decision maker. Even though EU is supposed to be equal, its clear that Germany (plus France) holds the most power. Its like on a job when something bad happens, you will often blame it on the boss. Thats atleast my take
Parcours97 | 13 hours ago
Its always the same. Whenever energy policy comes up everyone piles on Germany for shutting off nuclear plants while Italy did exactly the same but noone seems to care.
cr2pns | 10 hours ago
They bailed no-one. They won billions in debt while gaining a lot of trade and political capital. Then when they fucked up with the gas and russia the rest of europe has to share and follow them.
AcanthisittaWeird94 | 13 hours ago
I mean shit Germany pulled back in the day shouldn't complain for a long time. 🫢
mitoma333 | 10 hours ago
Divide and conquer, right? As long as the EU operates through unanimity, China simply has to befriend one EU nation to block any action.
Just read up on the bullshit that China has been allowed to do for the past 20 years: joint venture coercion, state-backed corporate espionage, ... No other nation would have gotten away with it.
NewYak4281 | 19 hours ago
Spain is Europe’s weak link. It fundamentally depends on the alliance it refuses to properly contribute to. Instead of living up to its collective defense agreements, uniquely, it is instead continuing to prioritize local populist spending policies.
Now it is yet again undermining the EU, this time economically, by engaging in bilateral trade conversations with China literally right as the bloc is entering major trade discussions with China.
Not a team player militarily or economically. At least they make you feel welcome as a tourist.
Edit: Incredible emotional reaction to the facts I have stated. Makes it clear these facts need to be spread much further. Thank you for giving me the inspiration to do this. I would not have otherwise.
mazamundi | 18 hours ago
Fundamentally depends on the military agreements of the EU? For what? The eastern border of the EU presents zero risk to Spain, yet it still invests in and helps members and has promised to come to defend its allies.
Meanwhile, those same allies have excluded Spain's southern border from the mutual defense agreements, and whenever there's a crisis, they blame Spain, and governments scream to throw the country out of the EU or Schengen.
Creative_Strike8202 | 13 hours ago
When the chinese shock of the 2000's wiped out Italy and Spain's textile and toys industries you were saying that we should focuse on boosting productivity and not to focus on those sectors because you were exporting a lot to China. Now that the chinese are after your industries you want everyone to stop buying their cheaper products and be forced to buy yours. This is one of the dumbest positions I have seen a person take in a while
NewYak4281 | 6 hours ago
Lmao literally who do you think I am? You are projecting insanely with this - completely swinging at air. “Your industries” ? My guy, I have zero clue what you are talking about.
Xiaopeng8877788 | 18 hours ago
How is negotiating with the second largest economy in the world “undermining”??? And the next world economic power
Western imperialism is over, the 200 year blip in history is returning to the normal. Better for Spain to be on the right side than the other idiot nations.
NewYak4281 | 18 hours ago
Spain belongs to the EU. The EU is negotiating with China as a whole. Spain having a 1:1 with China on the side hurts EU in the bigger conversation it’s having with China.
This is not a knock on China. It is pointing out that Spain is a part of the EU and is a part of NATO.
In both organizations, it is undermining its commitments to the organization.
Xiaopeng8877788 | 17 hours ago
But it is a knock because the EU has been threatening tariffs on China because China is winning and they don’t like that.
To the west; they’re only happy when it’s they’re winning, and instead be happy when both are winning. Western imperialism is rearing its head again.
NewYak4281 | 17 hours ago
No. You are starting a fight where there is none. If you want to go here, then I’d say it is exactly in China’s interest to split off Spain because EU is threatening tariffs. Accordingly, this makes your comment disingenuous.
Creative_Strike8202 | 13 hours ago
Did the EU do jackshit to solve the trade imbalances the euro created, to protect textile manufacturing during the first China shock or the 2008 financial crisis? Now that we have a competitive advantage due low energy cost you want to slow down investment in the country to not compete against you
GaseosaPorongol | 11 hours ago
Señores, han cantado Bingo!!
StopICE2026 | 19 hours ago
Least xenophobic European
StockLifter | 14 hours ago
What a stupid comment, how does the above comment have anything to do with racism. He is stating geopoliticial facts.
StockLifter | 14 hours ago
The fact that you get downvoted so much for stating an opinion that is certainly somewhat based in reality makes me think this sub is brigades by Chinese bots.
You are fully correct: Spain refuses to increase defense spending for NATO. It is also true that EU and China are heading for a collision course on trade, and China is trying to circumvent EU rules by doing final assembly in Spain. No judgement on the strategy from Spain here but you are speaking facts.
NewYak4281 | 6 hours ago
I know. This was brigaded hard by bots. Now I am irritated and will go on the offensive about this.
jcbevns | 15 hours ago
Yes it's true that United States of A is becoming a worse trading partner, but some short term gain in jobs at home is not worth the long time hollowing out of whole industries.
meermaalsgeprobeerd | 14 hours ago
Exactly, Europe as a whole should move more towards China and stop the hollowing out of whole industries by the US
jcbevns | 14 hours ago
That doesn't stop hollowing out car industry in Spain / Europe.
China is on track to produce 50% of everything in the whole world in 2050.
You want that dependence?
TryingMyWiFi | 14 hours ago
Nothing will stop it, ao it's better to be well positioned.
jcbevns | 12 hours ago
They have no internal demand. Trump with tariffs had the right idea with China but he used it on everything as if everything was a nail. No nuance