> Currently, the Oxc transformer does not support lowering native decorators as we are waiting for the specification to progress
Does Oxc also support TS runtime features like constructor parameter properties and enums? I seem to recall in the beta that they had enabled --erasableSyntaxOnly, presumably because Rolldown / Oxc didn't support doing a full transform.
What's not supported is the current draft proposal for standardized ECMAScript decorators; if you uncheck experimentalDecorators, the decorator syntax is simply passed through as-is, even when lowering to ES2015.
Awesome. Standard decorators support is not a dealbreaker for me, but enums and other types of non-erasable syntax would be.
Do you know what the status is on using Rolldown as a crate for rust usage? At the moment most rust projects use SWC but afaik its bundler is depreciated. I usually just call into Deno for builds but would be nice to have it all purely in Rust.
Vite 8 is pretty incredible. We saw around an 8x improvement (4m -> 30s) in our prod build, and it was nearly a drop-in replacement. Congrats (and thank you!) to the Vite team!
Not meant as a gotcha but I'm surprised because people always tout it as being so much faster than Next. (4m with Turbo would have to be a crazy huge app IME)
Same here (10s to 1s). The main reason for this is rolldown [1]. Already had it installed months ago, before it got merged into vite proper. Really awesome stuff.
Seems to be around 1 million. It's chunky and it's probably not well optimised for the build to be honest, but it was only starting to creep up the priority list as it crossed the 10m mark.
This is also the length on our CI which is running on some POS build machine. Locally it's far faster, but with Vite 8 its crazy fast.
I am still trying to work out what Teams is "setting up for me" when it takes several seconds from opening the bookmark in my browser to having a UI where I can read the chats. It's running on a PC that can render complex graphical scenes in real time but it takes half a minute to see "LGTM!". (Shaking head emoji goes here.)
Then again Teams is still barely an amateur compared to the incomprehensible slowness of Jira.
Got back in to react after a few years’ hiatus and I struggle to even understand what the point of Next is. Bizarrely the official docs even reference Next. Are people using react for non-SPA’s? Why?
After Tanstack Start, Next.js seems even less intuitive. While it remains a viable option due to its established momentum, it feels quite alien to backend devs, esp with its unconventional defaults.
It feels like Wordpress inasmuch as it’s shoving a tool in places that don’t make sense. React is great for SPAs but if I wanted pre-rendered static content I’d use a different tool.
I had had a client cancel a job when they heard it's not going to use Wordpress. It was going to be a dashboard showing statistics (air quality, room bookings etc.) from their facility.
why? jsx is a great language for templating, the ui being a function of state is an incredible model. i am not a huge nextjs fan but React, mdx and friends are great for pre-rendered static content
Isn’t all templates language that way (blade, jade,…)? The main selling point of JSX is being a DSL for React, which present a functional model instead of the imperative paradigm of the DOM API.
If you are dealing with a static site then Astro makes more sense. Renders to just plain HTML while still allowing you to provide interactivity for part of page components using React or any framework by creating what Astro calls an island.
You get best of both worlds, rich interactiveness by using JS and plain HTML/CSS where you need static.
JSX is a nice server side templating language. There a lot of people who aren't dependency conscious, and a lot of people who love react, and there is quite a bit of overlap in those two groups. I've used bun + preact_render_to_string for server side JSX templates before and it was nice. When I did it seemed that bun somewhat embraced react, and I could imagine react being the path of least resistance to server-side JSX there for some of the folks in the aforementioned groups.
I'm being rather snarky here, but the main point of front-end JS UI frameworks is to exist and to survive in their environment. For this purpose they have evolved to form a parasymbiotic relationship with others in their environment, for example with influencers. The frameworks with the best influencers win out over older ones that do not have the novelty value anymore and fail to attract the best influencers.
Next is the Microsoft Sharepoint of the JavaScript world. It’s a terrible solution to just about anything, and yet gets crammed into places and forced on people due to marketing-led decision making.
My 10 minute Next build was replaced with a 1 minute 30 second Vite build.
And such an extrodinary different is usually holding the tool wrong, but Next has years old open issues for many of the causes here (like forced output tracing) and has just ignored them. Possibly because the Next team's preferred deployment environment isn't affected?
Vercel has slowly taken over Facebook's position as being the employer of the main developers of React. There's a debate to be had over how much they 'control' it or not, but the fact create-next-app is the first recommended option on the official installation page now does show it's had an impact.
5 or so years ago, Next was a pretty solid option to quickly build up a non SPA, when combined with the static export function. It wasn't ideal, but it worked and came batteries included. Over time it's become more bloated, more complicated, and focused on features that benefit from Vercel's hosting – and static builds can't take advantage of them.
These newer features seem of limited benefit, to me, for even SPAs. Why is there still not a first class way of referencing API routes in the client code that provides typing? Once you reach even medium scale, it becomes a mess of inteprolated string paths and manually added shared response types.
I'm trying to build a nextjs app and it's quite painful. It seems to be more and more focused on SSR, which I don't care about (looking for a static app that calls separate API endpoints). That would have been fine in the NextJS I remember from a few years ago, where static and SSR seemed equally viable, but I can't be bothered now. I'm going to try Tanstack Start.
99% of what you see with the word "server" vs "client" is actually orthogonal to SSR is that wasn't clear.
The React team (really Vercel + Shopify) decided to use the supremely misleading names "Server Component" and "Client Component" for two things that do not affect CSR vs SSR.
Even if you label the root of your app "use client" (thus opting out of all the new complexity around RSC and server actions), it's still getting rendered server side.
> but the fact create-next-app is the first recommended option on the official installation page now does show it's had an impact.
There is a decent bit of history around that page and whether some things should go in a collapsible div and whether that was prioritizing certain frameworks over other ones.
One thing I'm still salty about is that CRA isn't mentioned anywhere (in the entire site). It's like it never existed.
Exactly, this why if I use next.js I always hijack the api routes and use Elysia, it comes with something called eden that makes the typing e2e fantastic, can't recommend it enough.
As a side note, I'm slowly moving out of Next.js, as you said, is bloated, full of stuff that is just noise and that benefits them (more network requests more money) for little user benefit.
Right now for me the gold standard is Vite + Tanstack Router. (And Elysia for api/server, but thats unrelated).
It makes sense for sites with a lot of static pages, but you barely need react in that case. NextJS does not perform that well out of the box. I’d argue that a basic SPA with no SSR using something like preact would be a better choice for many building dashboards or applications (not marketing/docs sites). It’s also easier to host & operate and has fewer footguns.
Getting SSR right is tricky and barely even matters for a lot of use cases I’m seeing with Next.
Better server/client integration when it comes to rendering UIs is neat, but there are other technologies that solve for that at a more fundamental level (htmx, phoenix)
Imagine a page that loads html during the first load, and then performs client-side routing during subsequent navigations. Is it an SPA? Is it not an SPA?
Really the enterprise partner supports next, but not vanilla js sounds stupid? Honestly I expect them to prioritize nextjs and react given the popularity, but still be open to vanilla js.
I checked sitecore cloud to have special integration for nextjs and reactjs. But it also support vanilla js as well.
Are there really anyone who is exclusive to nextjs?
It's the Vercel way to first run broken previews for several years.
Next started with Turbopack alpha as a Webpack alternative in Next 13 (October 2022) and finally marked Turbopack as stable and default in Next 16 (October 2025). They also ran sketchy benchmarks against Vite back in 2022 [0].
Next's caching has a terrible history [1], it is demonstrably slow [2] (HN discussion [3]), RSCs had glaring security holes [4], the app router continues to confuse and relied on preview tech for years, and hosting Next outside of Vercel requires a special adapter [5].
Next took a very bad turn and double downed on it. Coupled with years of terrible bugs its beyond repair for me unless they rewind a bunch of core changes they did.
There are several much better options right now. My favourite is Tanstack Start. No magice, great DX
+1 for Tanstack start. I just setup a new project with it and like the whole ecosystem. Only slight disadvantage is most third party documentation and automatic setup with packages aren't setup for Tanstack Start yet.
It depends on your application, but for typical SPAs, there are any number of approaches which are better than next by every metric I (personally) care about.
From my first glance, it is not really. Has its own templating syntax, its own file format etc. With NextJS static export I only have valid react/tsx and would not want to introduce a framework-specific language. Also could not easily find something about the routing
While Astro does indeed have its own type of components, it also supports React, Solid and a host of others. So transplanting your current tree of components in, adding the React plugin and saying "GO" is likely a fairly straight-forward project. I moved a previous static site into an older verison of Astro with very little trouble.
I'm surprised anyone's using Next for static exports when they've left dynamic paths broken for years.
I recently migrated to Tanstack for this and confirm it's been strictly better so far, especially having dynamic paths in my use-case (makes a hybrid app much more realistic)
Node.js has been extraordinarily useful for building build tools. We're outgrowing it's capacity and rightfully moving to a compiled language. Also faster tooling is essential for establishing a high quality feedback loop for AI agents
Your complaint is with Vite – famously incredibly simple and reliable to work with – using Rust, but you're bringing up webpack's complexity?
Node dependencies are fine, add an npmrc file to have it default to exact versioning and you solve 90% of common day to day problems. It's not ideal, but nor is cargo's mystery meat approach to importing optional features from packages.
It takes tooling team and discipline to keep compile times at bay when you reach mid size projects with compiled languages (looking at you Java, C++, Rust).
But, it doesn’t need to be so. Go is pretty fast to compile. So is Jai, from what I’ve seen. So was TurboPascal. Rust has a similar problem to the one Vite has been solving- Rust (and most languages) weren’t designed for compilation speed, and it’s hard to retroactively fix that. But, there’s no reason we shouldn’t have a bunch of statically typed, fast-to-compile languages.
Rust works well for toolchains where speed counts and you can control deps, but it's a much bigger ask for server-side app logic where teams lean on JS and its libraries. Switching an established stack to Rust hits hiring and maintenance friction fast, especially with async and lifetime bugs. For Vite's community, requiring plugin authors to redo everything in Rust would probably destroy most of the value users care about.
It has worked perfectly fine with compiled languages until someone had the idea to use V8 outside of the browser.
In fact it still does, I only use node when forced to do so by project delivery where "backend" implies something like Next.js full stack, or React apps running on iframes from SaaS products.
800 lines config to compile code that's later interpreted is wild. I get the general idea behind having a script instead of a static config, so you can do some runtime config (whether or not we should have runtime changes to config is a different conversation), but this is absurd.
I'm a big believer in fully reviewing all LLM generated code, but if I had to generate and review a webpack config like this, my eyes would gloss over...
Oh yeah, I got that - my comment is a bit confusing reading it back. The fact we used to built trash like that blows my mind. Makes me content having been on the backend.
Very pleased to see such performance improvements in the era of Electron shit and general contempt for users' computers. One of the projects I'm working on has been going for many years (since before React hooks were introduced), and I remember building it back in the day with tooling that was considered standard at the time (vanilla react-scripts, assembled around Webpack). It look maybe two minutes on a decent developer desktop, and old slow CI servers were even worse. Now Vite 8 builds it in about a second on comparable hardware. Another demonstration of how much resources we're collectively wasting.
It is especially weird because JavaScript was not supposed to be processed at all! This is all wrong if you ask me. Web development should strive to launch unchanged sources in the browser. TypeScript also was specifically designed so engine could strip types and execute result code. These build tools should not exist in the first place.
Jobs’ complaint wasn’t actionscript the language, it was the security and performance nightmare of the Flash runtime.
Though it’s hard to imagine what the web would look like if the language had become the standard. JS is a pain but AS was even less suitable for general purpose compute.
And at least the "performance nightmare" is an irony from today's perspective as the Flash player wasn't actually slow at all! It was the incapability of the Safari browser to handle plugins in a good way and on mobile devices. Today's implementations of mobile application, JavaScript heavy applications and websites are much much more performance heavy.
This feels like a ridiculous thread that captures everything wrong with modern Javascript ecosystem.
It's grown into a product of cults and attempted zingers rather than pragmatic or sensible technical discussions about what we should and shouldn't expect to be able to do with an individual programming language.
edit: to clarify, I assume there needs to be a basical level of comprehension of programming languages to debate the nuance of one, and if you can't think of a single reason as to why someone would want types removed, that's a possible indicator you don't have that necessary level yet, and I think the most effective way for you to learn that is to Google it. Sorry for coming across as rude if you genuinely don't know this stuff.
If you already know many reasons as to why types would be removed, then it seems disingenuous to ask that question, other than to make the point that you feel types shouldn't be stripped. If you think that, say it, and explain why you think they shouldn't be stripped.
The current state of Javascript is you _have_ to remove types; I was pointing out I can think of reasons why I sometimes wouldn't want to. (Admittedly in a glib manor; though on this site many prefer that to four paragraphs)
Both not minifying and including unenforced type hints consumes a little bandwidth though this can be largely offset by compression. This is an engineering trade off against the complexity of getting source maps working reliably for debugging and alerting.
If I am shipping a video player or an internal company dashboard how much of my time is that bandwidth worth?
> It is especially weird because JavaScript was not supposed to be processed at all! This is all wrong if you ask me.
You're not actually suggesting that technology can't evolve are you? Especially one whose original design goals were to process basic forms and are now being used to build full-blown apps?
It's absolutely wild to me that with everything that has happened in the last 2 decades with regard to the web there are still people who refuse to accept that it's changed. We are building far bigger and more complex applications with JavaScript. What would you propose instead?
If you want to make ultra-complicated clients, I assume that's what WebAssembly is heading towards. And it doesn't limit you to a poorly evolved language that wasn't intended for ultra-complicated software in the first place, or even force you to use that poorly evolved language on a server if you need to run the same logic in both places.
> TypeScript also was specifically designed so engine could strip types and execute result code. These build tools should not exist in the first place.
More recently, it's been designed so this is the case. Namespaces, enums, and the property constructor shortcut thing were all added relatively early on, before the philosophy of "just JS + types" had been fully defined.
These days, TypeScript will only add new features if they are either JavaScript features that have reached consensus (stage 3 iirc), or exist at the type system only.
There have been attempts to add type hints directly to JavaScript, so that you really could run something like TypeScript in the browser directly (with the types being automatically stripped out), but this causes a lot of additional parsing complexity and so nothing's really come of it yet. There's also the question of how useful it would even be in the end, given you can get much the same effect by using TypeScript's JSDoc-based annotations instead of `.ts` files, if you really need to be able to run your source code directly.
> TypeScript also was specifically designed so engine could strip types and execute result code.
That's no less a build step than concating, bundling, minifying, etc. When people say "I'm against processing code before deploying it to a web site" but then also say "TypeScript is okay though" or "JSX is okay though," all they're really saying is "I like some build steps but not others." Which is fine! Just say that!
> Very pleased to see such performance improvements in the era of Electron shit and general contempt for users' computers.
Luckily, we have invented a completely new nightmare in the form of trying to graft machine-usable interfaces on top of AI models that were specifically designed to be used by humans.
Awesome! been using Vite since its early days.
really excited to see how it's improving the JavaScript and TypeScript tooling landscape and how it continues to evolve
I wonder how much of the Rollup bundling magic has been ported to Rolldown.
One thing that always made this kind of switch to Rust has always been that Rollup has become so sophisticated that's hard to replace with something new.
Ah, wondering how long it will take Angular to replace it's sh*t building tool chain to fully vite compatible, hope it could happen before I change may career path or retire.
Thanks to the Vite team for building a faster, modern bundling solution on a fully open source stack that isn't tied to a specific framework...cough cough, Turbopack
also since typescript is being ported to go and rolldown is rust, they're stuck using IPC, so they miss out on native stuff like type awareness that a pure go toolchain would get for free
I've been using rolldown-vite for the past 3-4 months with absolutely no issues on a very large monorepo with SvelteKit, multiple TS services and custom packages.
Just upgraded to 8 with some version bumping. Dev server time reduced to 1.5s from 8s and build reduced to 35s from 2m30. Really really impressed.
Yeah, it makes you wonder how much computing power the industry has wasted over the years on tools that nobody questioned because "that's just how long builds take." We planned our work around it, joked about creating breaks, and built entire caching layers to work around it.
Build performance has been a pet topic for me for quite some time when I realized I was wasting so much times waiting for stuff to build 14 years ago. The problem is especially endemic in the Java world. But also in the backend world in general. I've seen people do integration tests where 99% of the time is spend creating and recreating the same database over and over again (some shitty ruby project more than a decade ago). That took something like 10 minutes.
With Kotlin/Spring Boot, compilation is annoyingly slow. That's what you get with modern languages and rich syntax. Apparently the Rust compiler isn't a speed daemon either. But tests are something that's under your control. Unit tests should be done in seconds/milliseconds. Integration tests are where you can make huge gains if you are a bit smart.
Most integration tests are not thread safe and make assumptions about running against an empty database. Which if you think about it, is exactly how no user except your first user will ever use your system.
The fix for this is 1) allow no cleanup between tests 2) randomize data so there are no test collisions between tests and 3) use multiple threads/processes to run your tests to 1 database that is provisioned before the tests and deleted after all tests.
I have a fast mac book pro that runs our hundreds of spring integration tests (proper end to end API tests with redis, db, elasticsearch and no fakes/stubs) in under 40 seconds. It kind of doubles as a robustness and performance test. It's fast enough that I have codex just trigger that on principle after every change it makes.
There's a bit more to it of course (e.g. polling rather than sleeping for assertions, using timeouts on things that are eventually happening, etc.). But once you have set this up once, you'll never want to deal with sequentially running integration tests again. Having to run those over and over again just sucks the joy out of life.
And with agentic coding tools having fast feedback loops is more critical than ever.
> I've seen people do integration tests where 99% of the time is spend creating and recreating the same database over and over again (some shitty ruby project more than a decade ago). That took something like 10 minutes.
For anyone that doesn't know: With sqlite you can serialize the db to a buffer and create a "new" db from that buffer with just `new Datebase()`. Just run the migrations once on test initialization, serialize that migrated db and reuse it instantly for each test for amazing test isolation.
Assuming you use sqlite in prod or are willing to take the L if some minor db difference breaks prod...
This method is actually super popular in the PHP world, but people get themselves into trouble if they tidy up all the footguns that stock sqlite leaves behind for you (strict types being a big one).
Also, when you get a certain size of database, certain operations can become hideously slow (and that can change depending on the engine as well) but if you're running a totally different database for your test suite, it's one more thing that is different.
I do recognize that these are niche problems for healthy companies that can afford to solve them, so ymmv.
> Most integration tests are not thread safe and make assumptions about running against an empty database. Which if you think about it, is exactly how no user except your first user will ever use your system.
Dangling state is useful for debugging when the test fails, you don't want to clean that up.
This has been super useful practice in my experience. I really like to be able to run tests regardless of my application state. It's faster and over time it helps you hit and fixup various issues that you only encounter after you fill the database with enough data.
The economic incentives line up much better there. You charge for tokens -> cost is GPUs -> you work very hard to keep GPUs utilized 100% and get max tokens out of those cycles.
Compare this to essentially any modern business app, the product being sold has very little relationship with CPU cycles, or the CPU cycles are SO cheap relative to what you're getting paid, no one cares to optimize.
The waste of slow JS bundles is nothing compared to the cost of bloated interpreted runtimes or inefficient abstractions. Most production software is multiple orders of magnitude slower than it needs to be. Just look at all the electron apps that use multiple GB of ram doing nothing and are laggier than similar software written 40 years ago despite having access to an incredibly luxurious amount of resources from any sane historical perspective.
Something I realized while doing more political campaign work is how inefficient most self hosted solutions are. Things like plausible or umami (analytics) require at least 2 gigs of ram, postiz (scheduled social media planner) requires 2 gigs of ram, etc.
It all slowly adds up where you think a simple $10 VPS with 2 gigs of ram is enough but it's not, especially if you want a team of 10-30ish to work sporadically within the same box.
There can be a lot of major wins by rewriting these programs in more efficient languages like Go or Rust. It would make self hosting more maintainable and break away from the consulting class that often has worse solutions at way higher prices (for an example, one consulting group sells software similar to postiz but for $2k/month).
So you have free software that requires 2 GB of RAM and the alternative is $2k per month and you're complaining that the free solution is inefficient? Really?
Why do you expect to be able to replace a 2k/month solution with a $10/month VPS?
Because the fundamental task many of these programs are doing is neither complicated nor resource intensive.
In the age of cheap custom software solutions everyone should at least try to make something themselves that's fit for purpose. It doesn't take much to be a dangerous professional these days, and certainly more than ever before can a dangerous professional be truly dangerous.
Thank you, I get so confused when people think a $5/vps shouldn't be able to do much. We're talking about 99% of small business that might have 5 concurrent users max.
2 gigs of ram should be considered overkill to cover every single business case for a variety of tools (analytics, mailer/newsletter, CRM, socials, e-commerce).
He's saying that the software seems free, but is so inefficient that it bloats other costs to run it. And he never said he wanted to replace $2K/month with $10/month.
I'm not saying it's so bad I don't recommend it, quite the opposite; but these things can be written in more performant languages. There's no reason why a cron job scheduler requires 500 mb of ram in idle. Same for the analytics. That is just a waste of resources.
Software can be drastically way less resource intensive, there is no excuse outside of wanting to exacerbate the climate crises.
This period of our history in the profession will be seen as a tremendous waste of resources and effort.
Dude, the $2k solution is not only worse than postiz they charge an additional thousand for each channel.
It's just garbage software, I brought it up as an example IDK why. Commentators here like knowing snippets about other industries in the profession, I know I do at least.
But to answer your Q, yes I do expect a cron job schedule, analytics, and a CRM not to require 8 gig of ram in order to not barf on itself too hard.
These things are incredibly resource intensive for their actual jobs. The software is incredibly wasteful.
A $5/vps should be enough to host every suite of software a small business needs. To think otherwise is extremely out of touch. We're talking about 3 concurrent users max here, software should not be buckling under such a light load.
I guess there's the distinction between capacity that could be taken up by other things, and free capacity that doesn't necessarily cost anything.
For a server built in the cloud those cycles could actually be taken up by other things, freeing the system and bringing costs down.
For a client computer running electron, as long as the user doesn't have so many electro apps open that their computer slows down noticeably, that inefficency might not matter that much.
Another aspect is that the devices get cheaper and faster so today's slow electron app might run fine on a system that is a few years away, and that capacity was never going to be taken up by anything else on the end user's device.
It’s more likely that Electron app uses poor code and have supply chain issue (npm,…). Also loading a whole web engine in memory is not cheap. The space could have been used to cache files, but it’s not, which is inneficient especially when laptops’ uptime is generally higher.
Electron apps tend to use a lot of memory because the framework favors developer productivity and portability over runtime efficiency.
- Every Electron app ships with its own copy of Chromium (for rendering the UI) and Node.js (for system APIs). So even simple apps start with a fairly large memory footprint. It also means that electron essentially ships 2 instances of v8 engine (JIT-compiler used in Chromium and NodeJS), which just goes to show how bloated it is.
- Electron renders the UI using HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. That means the app needs a DOM tree, CSS layout engine, and the browser rendering pipeline. Native frameworks use OS widgets, which are usually lighter and use less memory.
- Lastly the problem is the modern web dev ecosystem itself; it is not just Electron that prioritises developer experience over everything else. UI frameworks like React or Vue use things like a Virtual DOM to track UI changes. This helps developers build complex UIs faster, but it adds extra memory and runtime overhead compared to simpler approaches. And obviously don't get me started on npm and node_modules.
As I am interested in long time maintainability (should still work in 10 years) with my projects I am just using esbuild directly. I am not interested in adjusting my projects, just because things changed under the hood in "wrappers" like Vite and I suddenly have a lot of work.
This is the way. Trivial to get live reloading working. HMR is overrated. I went with esbuild in my last project, and have no regrets. Also, used my own 100-line end-to-end typed RPC layer with Zod validation doing the heavy lifting. No codegen required for any part of the project other than generating types from Postgres. No regrets there, either. The only thing I would have changed in that project is I would have used Kysely instead of just raw porsager.
Vite+, Void Cloud, Void Framework... an epic battle between Vercel and Void is coming.
The PRC (aka server functions) demo [0] is particularly interesting — end-to-end type safety (from DB to UI) is a major milestone for JavaScript. We've been doing a lot of RPC design work in that space with Telefunc (tRPC alternative) [1] — it's a really hard topic, and we're looking forward to collaborating with the Void team. (Also looking forward to contributing as the creators of Vike [2].)
You say that, but isn't Vercel also a Void(0) investor in a roundabout way?
The big news regarding Void Cloud is that it all seems to be built on Cloudflare workers. The landing page is very light on info atm too. [0]
I am super excited that they are MIT open sourcing Vite+ however. In that realm, they are obviously targeting Bun as their main competition. Unfortunately for Bun, if they are forced to help Anthropic more than they can focus on OSS, they might lose their current (perceived?) advantage.
Awesome news. Amid all the (real and perceived) js ecosystem churn, vite has been consistently excellent for dx and production. The unified rolldown bundler is only going to increase vite's appeal and widen the gap as the fastest, most pragmatic and flexible foundation for ts/js projects.
Huge fan, speaking from deep experience (webdev since 1998).
Note the comment at the top. I had no idea how to come up with this config by checking the documentation pages of vite and its various related tools. Luckily I found the GitHub issue and someone else had come up with the right incantation.
Now this new vite uses new tools, and their documentation is still lacking. I spent half an hour trying to figure out how vite (and related tools that I had to navigate and try to piece a coherent view of: esbuild, oxc, rolldown, etc.) might be convinced, but gave up and stayed with vite 7.
Someone could respond with a working solution and it would help, sure, but these tools sure as hell have documentation issues.
Sorry if this comes across as overly facetious — I’m sure you have a reason for doing it that way! — but would it not be easier just to bow to convention and rename your .js files to .jsx?
Probably. It's just that I've always used .js for my projects (decades). Such a rename would likely result in configuration changes to the other tools I use, but indeed they are better documented. When faced with a multiplicity of conventions I pick one and stick to it; the tools are flexible enough to work with it I'm sure, the real issue is of discoverability.
> Wasm SSR support: .wasm?init imports now work in SSR environments, expanding Vite's WebAssembly feature to server-side rendering.
While the process was relatively slow, I really appreciate the extra effort that the team have put on even this minor feature add. They not only guided me towards more compatible and idiomatic approach, but also added docs and helped keeping the code up to date before merging.
slopinthebag | 15 hours ago
Does Oxc also support TS runtime features like constructor parameter properties and enums? I seem to recall in the beta that they had enabled --erasableSyntaxOnly, presumably because Rolldown / Oxc didn't support doing a full transform.
ameliaquining | 13 hours ago
For that matter, TypeScript's version of decorators ("experimental decorators") also works: https://playground.oxc.rs/?options=%7B%22run%22%3A%7B%22lint...
What's not supported is the current draft proposal for standardized ECMAScript decorators; if you uncheck experimentalDecorators, the decorator syntax is simply passed through as-is, even when lowering to ES2015.
slopinthebag | 13 hours ago
Do you know what the status is on using Rolldown as a crate for rust usage? At the moment most rust projects use SWC but afaik its bundler is depreciated. I usually just call into Deno for builds but would be nice to have it all purely in Rust.
Benjamin_Dobell | 13 hours ago
krona | 11 hours ago
https://github.com/oxc-project/oxc/issues/6073
johnfn | 14 hours ago
Griffinsauce | 12 hours ago
Not meant as a gotcha but I'm surprised because people always tout it as being so much faster than Next. (4m with Turbo would have to be a crazy huge app IME)
rk06 | 11 hours ago
dschu | 10 hours ago
FrostKiwi | 11 hours ago
[1] https://rolldown.rs/
bengale | 11 hours ago
christophilus | 10 hours ago
bengale | 9 hours ago
This is also the length on our CI which is running on some POS build machine. Locally it's far faster, but with Vite 8 its crazy fast.
pestatije | 9 hours ago
Silhouette | an hour ago
Then again Teams is still barely an amateur compared to the incomprehensible slowness of Jira.
brandensilva | 14 hours ago
pkilgore | 13 hours ago
hackernewsman71 | 13 hours ago
soulchild77 | 13 hours ago
rvcdbn | 13 hours ago
(haven't tried it myself)
vijaybritto | 12 hours ago
littlecranky67 | 11 hours ago
rozenmd | 10 hours ago
CalRobert | 13 hours ago
codetantra | 12 hours ago
CalRobert | 12 hours ago
patates | 12 hours ago
davidodio | 11 hours ago
skydhash | 8 hours ago
codetantra | 5 hours ago
gnarlbar | 12 hours ago
JSX is a nice server side templating language. There a lot of people who aren't dependency conscious, and a lot of people who love react, and there is quite a bit of overlap in those two groups. I've used bun + preact_render_to_string for server side JSX templates before and it was nice. When I did it seemed that bun somewhat embraced react, and I could imagine react being the path of least resistance to server-side JSX there for some of the folks in the aforementioned groups.
flowerbreeze | 12 hours ago
Griffinsauce | 12 hours ago
christophilus | 10 hours ago
BoorishBears | 3 hours ago
And such an extrodinary different is usually holding the tool wrong, but Next has years old open issues for many of the causes here (like forced output tracing) and has just ignored them. Possibly because the Next team's preferred deployment environment isn't affected?
drawfloat | 11 hours ago
5 or so years ago, Next was a pretty solid option to quickly build up a non SPA, when combined with the static export function. It wasn't ideal, but it worked and came batteries included. Over time it's become more bloated, more complicated, and focused on features that benefit from Vercel's hosting – and static builds can't take advantage of them.
These newer features seem of limited benefit, to me, for even SPAs. Why is there still not a first class way of referencing API routes in the client code that provides typing? Once you reach even medium scale, it becomes a mess of inteprolated string paths and manually added shared response types.
robertlagrant | 9 hours ago
BoorishBears | 4 hours ago
The React team (really Vercel + Shopify) decided to use the supremely misleading names "Server Component" and "Client Component" for two things that do not affect CSR vs SSR.
Even if you label the root of your app "use client" (thus opting out of all the new complexity around RSC and server actions), it's still getting rendered server side.
mexicocitinluez | 7 hours ago
There is a decent bit of history around that page and whether some things should go in a collapsible div and whether that was prioritizing certain frameworks over other ones.
One thing I'm still salty about is that CRA isn't mentioned anywhere (in the entire site). It's like it never existed.
jvidalv | 5 hours ago
As a side note, I'm slowly moving out of Next.js, as you said, is bloated, full of stuff that is just noise and that benefits them (more network requests more money) for little user benefit.
Right now for me the gold standard is Vite + Tanstack Router. (And Elysia for api/server, but thats unrelated).
pjmlp | 11 hours ago
And to sell Vercel on top.
user34283 | 8 hours ago
Fetch index.html -> Fetch JS bundle -> Evaluate -> Fetch /users/me
You do:
Fetch index.html (your page is rendered at this point) -> rehydrate with client side JS for interactivity in the background
It's a pretty smart solution I think, and many people are still sleeping on the whole SSR topic.
anon7000 | 8 hours ago
Getting SSR right is tricky and barely even matters for a lot of use cases I’m seeing with Next.
Better server/client integration when it comes to rendering UIs is neat, but there are other technologies that solve for that at a more fundamental level (htmx, phoenix)
user34283 | 7 hours ago
It is broadly useful and relatively easy to use while still staying within the React framework the developer knows well.
That said, I didn't build more than a demo app with NextJS, so I don't know a lot about possible issues. Just the concept seems to be good.
azangru | 7 hours ago
Imagine a page that loads html during the first load, and then performs client-side routing during subsequent navigations. Is it an SPA? Is it not an SPA?
pjmlp | 13 hours ago
See Sitecore Cloud, Sanity, Contentful,....
rk06 | 12 hours ago
I checked sitecore cloud to have special integration for nextjs and reactjs. But it also support vanilla js as well.
Are there really anyone who is exclusive to nextjs?
pjmlp | 12 hours ago
In many places they will say it is supported, but when you look into the details only React/Next.js work out of the box without additional work.
A bit like you can deploy Next.js on Vercel, or do it yourself somewhere else.
gherkinnn | 12 hours ago
Next started with Turbopack alpha as a Webpack alternative in Next 13 (October 2022) and finally marked Turbopack as stable and default in Next 16 (October 2025). They also ran sketchy benchmarks against Vite back in 2022 [0].
Next's caching has a terrible history [1], it is demonstrably slow [2] (HN discussion [3]), RSCs had glaring security holes [4], the app router continues to confuse and relied on preview tech for years, and hosting Next outside of Vercel requires a special adapter [5].
Choosing Next.js is a liability.
0 - https://github.com/yyx990803/vite-vs-next-turbo-hmr/discussi...
1 - https://nextjs.org/blog/our-journey-with-caching
2 - https://martijnhols.nl/blog/how-much-traffic-can-a-pre-rende...
3 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43277148
4 - https://nextjs.org/blog/CVE-2025-66478
5 - https://opennext.js.org/
ssijak | 12 hours ago
There are several much better options right now. My favourite is Tanstack Start. No magice, great DX
adamgoodapp | 10 hours ago
littlecranky67 | 10 hours ago
christophilus | 10 hours ago
littlecranky67 | 8 hours ago
NamlchakKhandro | 10 hours ago
dbbk | 9 hours ago
J_tt | 9 hours ago
littlecranky67 | 8 hours ago
nobleach | 7 hours ago
BoorishBears | 4 hours ago
I recently migrated to Tanstack for this and confirm it's been strictly better so far, especially having dynamic paths in my use-case (makes a hybrid app much more realistic)
verma_yatharth | 13 hours ago
pjmlp | 13 hours ago
What about finally stop using node.js for server side development?
vijaybritto | 12 hours ago
Node.js has been extraordinarily useful for building build tools. We're outgrowing it's capacity and rightfully moving to a compiled language. Also faster tooling is essential for establishing a high quality feedback loop for AI agents
pjmlp | 12 hours ago
Fast all the way down, especially when coupled with REPL tooling.
omnimus | 12 hours ago
potwinkle | 11 hours ago
pjmlp | 11 hours ago
drawfloat | 11 hours ago
Node dependencies are fine, add an npmrc file to have it default to exact versioning and you solve 90% of common day to day problems. It's not ideal, but nor is cargo's mystery meat approach to importing optional features from packages.
pjmlp | 11 hours ago
Maybe leave JavaScript on the browser, where it belongs.
drawfloat | an hour ago
maccard | 11 hours ago
Also, writing JavaScript for the backend is needlessly underperforming for anything with any load.
wiseowise | 12 hours ago
pjmlp | 11 hours ago
wiseowise | 10 hours ago
christophilus | 10 hours ago
pjmlp | 10 hours ago
See OCaml or Haskell, they also have interpreters and REPLs as part of their tooling.
Also there should be no need to always compile crates from scratch when starting a new project.
Which ironically circles back to your remark of having a similar problem.
CodeCompost | 12 hours ago
pjmlp | 11 hours ago
hrmtst93837 | 12 hours ago
pjmlp | 11 hours ago
In fact it still does, I only use node when forced to do so by project delivery where "backend" implies something like Next.js full stack, or React apps running on iframes from SaaS products.
esafak | 5 hours ago
Well that's where they went wrong.
maccard | 11 hours ago
It just shows that people don’t value the actual performance of what they’re running.
mmusc | 11 hours ago
nebezb | 12 hours ago
A great QoL change. One less place to duplicate (and potentially mistake) a config.
c-hendricks | 6 hours ago
karel-3d | 11 hours ago
I still don't understand how people used to think scripts like this are the proper way to bundle an app.
https://github.com/facebook/create-react-app/blob/main/packa...
vite is great, is all I am saying
jjice | 6 hours ago
I'm a big believer in fully reviewing all LLM generated code, but if I had to generate and review a webpack config like this, my eyes would gloss over...
karel-3d | 4 hours ago
The LLM generated vite config is 20 lines
jjice | 2 hours ago
homebrewer | 11 hours ago
vbezhenar | 11 hours ago
__alexs | 11 hours ago
dschu | 10 hours ago
azangru | 7 hours ago
dschu | 3 hours ago
Aldipower | 8 hours ago
10 years ago this sentence probably would have start a flame war. ;-)
brookst | 8 hours ago
Though it’s hard to imagine what the web would look like if the language had become the standard. JS is a pain but AS was even less suitable for general purpose compute.
Aldipower | 6 hours ago
ActionScript3 was a very suitable language.
c-hendricks | 4 hours ago
karel-3d | 2 hours ago
olmo23 | 11 hours ago
ZiiS | 10 hours ago
1dom | 10 hours ago
It's grown into a product of cults and attempted zingers rather than pragmatic or sensible technical discussions about what we should and shouldn't expect to be able to do with an individual programming language.
edit: to clarify, I assume there needs to be a basical level of comprehension of programming languages to debate the nuance of one, and if you can't think of a single reason as to why someone would want types removed, that's a possible indicator you don't have that necessary level yet, and I think the most effective way for you to learn that is to Google it. Sorry for coming across as rude if you genuinely don't know this stuff.
If you already know many reasons as to why types would be removed, then it seems disingenuous to ask that question, other than to make the point that you feel types shouldn't be stripped. If you think that, say it, and explain why you think they shouldn't be stripped.
pestatije | 9 hours ago
ZiiS | 9 hours ago
wildpeaks | 9 hours ago
ZiiS | 9 hours ago
dminik | 9 hours ago
wildpeaks | 7 hours ago
But in browser, for now only the more limited JSDoc-style types can be shipped as-is indeed.
mexicocitinluez | 7 hours ago
You're not actually suggesting that technology can't evolve are you? Especially one whose original design goals were to process basic forms and are now being used to build full-blown apps?
It's absolutely wild to me that with everything that has happened in the last 2 decades with regard to the web there are still people who refuse to accept that it's changed. We are building far bigger and more complex applications with JavaScript. What would you propose instead?
jhgb | 3 hours ago
mexicocitinluez | 58 minutes ago
It was originally about build steps but now you're talking about it's design.
And your only response is to use a technology years away from being practical for most web apps?
azangru | 7 hours ago
Was it? Have you forgotten namespaces and enums?
MrJohz | 6 hours ago
These days, TypeScript will only add new features if they are either JavaScript features that have reached consensus (stage 3 iirc), or exist at the type system only.
There have been attempts to add type hints directly to JavaScript, so that you really could run something like TypeScript in the browser directly (with the types being automatically stripped out), but this causes a lot of additional parsing complexity and so nothing's really come of it yet. There's also the question of how useful it would even be in the end, given you can get much the same effect by using TypeScript's JSDoc-based annotations instead of `.ts` files, if you really need to be able to run your source code directly.
tshaddox | 5 hours ago
That's no less a build step than concating, bundling, minifying, etc. When people say "I'm against processing code before deploying it to a web site" but then also say "TypeScript is okay though" or "JSX is okay though," all they're really saying is "I like some build steps but not others." Which is fine! Just say that!
this_user | 8 hours ago
Luckily, we have invented a completely new nightmare in the form of trying to graft machine-usable interfaces on top of AI models that were specifically designed to be used by humans.
itsTyrion | 7 hours ago
imfing | 11 hours ago
gdorsi | 11 hours ago
I wonder how much of the Rollup bundling magic has been ported to Rolldown.
One thing that always made this kind of switch to Rust has always been that Rollup has become so sophisticated that's hard to replace with something new.
shunia_huang | 11 hours ago
moretti | 10 hours ago
throwaway290 | 10 hours ago
rk06 | 9 hours ago
throwaway290 | 8 hours ago
rk06 | 5 hours ago
https://esbuild.github.io/plugins/#svelte-plugin
esbuild's plugin support is limited which is why vite had to use rollup for prod build.
abrztam | 5 hours ago
h4ch1 | 10 hours ago
Just upgraded to 8 with some version bumping. Dev server time reduced to 1.5s from 8s and build reduced to 35s from 2m30. Really really impressed.
raydenvm | 10 hours ago
Kudos to the Vite maintainers!
jillesvangurp | 8 hours ago
With Kotlin/Spring Boot, compilation is annoyingly slow. That's what you get with modern languages and rich syntax. Apparently the Rust compiler isn't a speed daemon either. But tests are something that's under your control. Unit tests should be done in seconds/milliseconds. Integration tests are where you can make huge gains if you are a bit smart.
Most integration tests are not thread safe and make assumptions about running against an empty database. Which if you think about it, is exactly how no user except your first user will ever use your system.
The fix for this is 1) allow no cleanup between tests 2) randomize data so there are no test collisions between tests and 3) use multiple threads/processes to run your tests to 1 database that is provisioned before the tests and deleted after all tests.
I have a fast mac book pro that runs our hundreds of spring integration tests (proper end to end API tests with redis, db, elasticsearch and no fakes/stubs) in under 40 seconds. It kind of doubles as a robustness and performance test. It's fast enough that I have codex just trigger that on principle after every change it makes.
There's a bit more to it of course (e.g. polling rather than sleeping for assertions, using timeouts on things that are eventually happening, etc.). But once you have set this up once, you'll never want to deal with sequentially running integration tests again. Having to run those over and over again just sucks the joy out of life.
And with agentic coding tools having fast feedback loops is more critical than ever.
Sammi | 6 hours ago
For anyone that doesn't know: With sqlite you can serialize the db to a buffer and create a "new" db from that buffer with just `new Datebase()`. Just run the migrations once on test initialization, serialize that migrated db and reuse it instantly for each test for amazing test isolation.
yurishimo | 3 hours ago
This method is actually super popular in the PHP world, but people get themselves into trouble if they tidy up all the footguns that stock sqlite leaves behind for you (strict types being a big one).
Also, when you get a certain size of database, certain operations can become hideously slow (and that can change depending on the engine as well) but if you're running a totally different database for your test suite, it's one more thing that is different.
I do recognize that these are niche problems for healthy companies that can afford to solve them, so ymmv.
esafak | 6 hours ago
panstromek | 4 hours ago
Yea, cypress has this in their anti-patterns:
https://docs.cypress.io/app/core-concepts/best-practices#Usi...
Dangling state is useful for debugging when the test fails, you don't want to clean that up.
This has been super useful practice in my experience. I really like to be able to run tests regardless of my application state. It's faster and over time it helps you hit and fixup various issues that you only encounter after you fill the database with enough data.
Zopieux | 8 hours ago
_heimdall | 8 hours ago
echelon | 6 hours ago
All it has to do is put price pressure on your salary. (And it is already doing that.)
xxpor | 4 hours ago
Compare this to essentially any modern business app, the product being sold has very little relationship with CPU cycles, or the CPU cycles are SO cheap relative to what you're getting paid, no one cares to optimize.
semiquaver | 6 hours ago
shimman | 5 hours ago
It all slowly adds up where you think a simple $10 VPS with 2 gigs of ram is enough but it's not, especially if you want a team of 10-30ish to work sporadically within the same box.
There can be a lot of major wins by rewriting these programs in more efficient languages like Go or Rust. It would make self hosting more maintainable and break away from the consulting class that often has worse solutions at way higher prices (for an example, one consulting group sells software similar to postiz but for $2k/month).
ahtihn | 3 hours ago
Why do you expect to be able to replace a 2k/month solution with a $10/month VPS?
xyzzy_plugh | 2 hours ago
In the age of cheap custom software solutions everyone should at least try to make something themselves that's fit for purpose. It doesn't take much to be a dangerous professional these days, and certainly more than ever before can a dangerous professional be truly dangerous.
shimman | 36 minutes ago
2 gigs of ram should be considered overkill to cover every single business case for a variety of tools (analytics, mailer/newsletter, CRM, socials, e-commerce).
MoonWalk | 2 hours ago
He's saying that the software seems free, but is so inefficient that it bloats other costs to run it. And he never said he wanted to replace $2K/month with $10/month.
shimman | 44 minutes ago
Software can be drastically way less resource intensive, there is no excuse outside of wanting to exacerbate the climate crises.
This period of our history in the profession will be seen as a tremendous waste of resources and effort.
shimman | 40 minutes ago
It's just garbage software, I brought it up as an example IDK why. Commentators here like knowing snippets about other industries in the profession, I know I do at least.
But to answer your Q, yes I do expect a cron job schedule, analytics, and a CRM not to require 8 gig of ram in order to not barf on itself too hard.
These things are incredibly resource intensive for their actual jobs. The software is incredibly wasteful.
A $5/vps should be enough to host every suite of software a small business needs. To think otherwise is extremely out of touch. We're talking about 3 concurrent users max here, software should not be buckling under such a light load.
awongh | 5 hours ago
For a server built in the cloud those cycles could actually be taken up by other things, freeing the system and bringing costs down.
For a client computer running electron, as long as the user doesn't have so many electro apps open that their computer slows down noticeably, that inefficency might not matter that much.
Another aspect is that the devices get cheaper and faster so today's slow electron app might run fine on a system that is a few years away, and that capacity was never going to be taken up by anything else on the end user's device.
skydhash | 3 hours ago
blackoil | 3 hours ago
PacificSpecific | 2 hours ago
gamefamecame | 2 hours ago
- Every Electron app ships with its own copy of Chromium (for rendering the UI) and Node.js (for system APIs). So even simple apps start with a fairly large memory footprint. It also means that electron essentially ships 2 instances of v8 engine (JIT-compiler used in Chromium and NodeJS), which just goes to show how bloated it is.
- Electron renders the UI using HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. That means the app needs a DOM tree, CSS layout engine, and the browser rendering pipeline. Native frameworks use OS widgets, which are usually lighter and use less memory.
- Lastly the problem is the modern web dev ecosystem itself; it is not just Electron that prioritises developer experience over everything else. UI frameworks like React or Vue use things like a Virtual DOM to track UI changes. This helps developers build complex UIs faster, but it adds extra memory and runtime overhead compared to simpler approaches. And obviously don't get me started on npm and node_modules.
spiderfarmer | 3 hours ago
jjtheblunt | 2 hours ago
at least 100x slower than it needs to be?
eudamoniac | an hour ago
heldrida | 9 hours ago
Aldipower | 8 hours ago
emadda | 7 hours ago
I think it is the only tool in the JS ecosystem that has not broken after a few years.
christophilus | 7 hours ago
silverwind | 6 hours ago
chearon | 6 hours ago
brillout | 7 hours ago
The PRC (aka server functions) demo [0] is particularly interesting — end-to-end type safety (from DB to UI) is a major milestone for JavaScript. We've been doing a lot of RPC design work in that space with Telefunc (tRPC alternative) [1] — it's a really hard topic, and we're looking forward to collaborating with the Void team. (Also looking forward to contributing as the creators of Vike [2].)
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX0Xv73kXNk (around the end of the first talk) [1]: https://telefunc.com (see the last PR) [2]: https://vike.dev
yurishimo | 3 hours ago
The big news regarding Void Cloud is that it all seems to be built on Cloudflare workers. The landing page is very light on info atm too. [0]
I am super excited that they are MIT open sourcing Vite+ however. In that realm, they are obviously targeting Bun as their main competition. Unfortunately for Bun, if they are forced to help Anthropic more than they can focus on OSS, they might lose their current (perceived?) advantage.
0: https://void.cloud/
brillout | 3 hours ago
> Unfortunately for Bun, if they are forced to help Anthropic more than they can focus on OSS
Curious: is that speculation, or based on observation?
[0]: https://voidzero.dev/about
chrisweekly | 6 hours ago
vite_throwaway | 6 hours ago
Now this new vite uses new tools, and their documentation is still lacking. I spent half an hour trying to figure out how vite (and related tools that I had to navigate and try to piece a coherent view of: esbuild, oxc, rolldown, etc.) might be convinced, but gave up and stayed with vite 7.
Someone could respond with a working solution and it would help, sure, but these tools sure as hell have documentation issues.
spiros | 5 hours ago
Though sometimes oxc complains about JSX in JS when running vite, but it still works fine.
vite_throwaway | 4 hours ago
Another instance is the use of rollupOptions.output.manualChunks that now has to be rewritten, maybe that would be less frustrating to fathom.
iainmerrick | 5 hours ago
vite_throwaway | 4 hours ago
ezfe | 4 hours ago
upsuper | 4 hours ago
> Wasm SSR support: .wasm?init imports now work in SSR environments, expanding Vite's WebAssembly feature to server-side rendering.
While the process was relatively slow, I really appreciate the extra effort that the team have put on even this minor feature add. They not only guided me towards more compatible and idiomatic approach, but also added docs and helped keeping the code up to date before merging.
bovermyer | 3 hours ago
I like Vite as a tool, but knowing that the Vite folks actually care about helping others learn and contribute is awesome.