Came here to post this. Having a young kid and dogs, it’s like I developed a sixth sense for when a pack of gum hits the floor or a grape rolls off a plate. Seems like kids are always (in)actively trying to kill the dogs.
I used to give my familys husky the occasional grape or two cuz he seemed to like them lol. Only learned they were toxic after I moved out. We came home one day to the doofus having somehow opened and drank a good portion of a 6 pack... He also liked carrots oddly enough. He lived till about 16 somehow
Growing up my parents would give our dog their medication in a grape. He was a massive black lab (over 100 lbs) and lived to 13 years old. Maybe his massive size saved him. And don’t worry, my parents have corrected their ways.
To be fair, grapes and xylitol are on a different level entirely.
Neither should ever be intentionally fed to dogs, absolutely, but grape ingestion is a bit of a roll of the dice. The risk may relate to tartaric acid content, which seems to vary wildly between grapes.
Xylitol, on the other hand, is absolutely straight-up fucking toxic.
unfortunate that they don’t make a clear distinction between consuming xylitol (swallowing it) and oral care products. i use xylitol toothpaste and mouth rinse because it’s highly effective for periodontal disease. but you don’t swallow those.
I'd like to know what sort of consumption levels were associated with "the 25% with the highest levels of xylitol in their blood" but I think it's safe to assume that you'd fall into the lower categories.
https://www.escardio.org/news/press/press-releases/xylitol-may-increase-the-risk-of-cardiovascular-events/ weirdly this was published 36 mins ago. as is often the case, this news article is not based on a peer reviewed published study. we have no idea what the methodology was or who funded the study or conditions (health conditions, class, etc) it controlled for, if any.
yea same and i just tried to find the study from the article and can’t. i found another news article saying the results of the study linking xylitol consumption and cardiovascular health have not been published or peer reviewed.
yep! it is. contact time with the mucous membranes is short and the concentration of xylitol is very low in a toothpaste. toothpaste and mouthwash both tend to have low bioavailability because they don’t sit in your mouth long enough for much of it to cross the tissue into the bloodstream.
yep and you’re swallowing it then. would love to see studies about how much you ingest with chewing gum, but to my knowledge there are none (and i’ve researched it heavily)
Often they're considered safe because we already naturally consume these sugars and sugar alcohols in fruits and vegetables (in small amounts).
The issue isn't whether they can be consumed safely, rather it's a question of what the safe limit is. Normal sugar (sucrose)is also linked to heart attacks, strokes, and a whole host of diseases, depending on consumption level.
The other issue is that there is research to say it's safe but "safe" can mean different things and people didn't necessarily consume as much as when it was first introduced so they weren't looking at a miniscule bump in stroke and cardiac events (miniscule on an absolute risk level, not a relative one).
This makes a lot of sense. Since it's derived from actual sugars they assumed that since sugars were safe (relatively and in moderation), that it should be safe also. However, they never considered the strengths or how much people would use it.
They actually did the same thing with Splenda, touting it as the healthy alternative because it was derived from sugar, and now it's also considered unsafe. I'm old enough to remember those ads when it first came out. Splenda was the safe alternative to equal and saccharine. So you get everybody hooked on it, and then they find out it's not safe either.
I just read more about it. It isn't gum chewing, if it was then brushing your teeth should be the same, both ingest small amounts. It is when it is used as sweetener in food and beverages.
yea rubbing pure xylitol into your gums would not be the same as swishing/brushing and spitting out something that has a low percentage of xylitol in it. also, different things absorb through mucous membranes differently based on their: chemical properties, molecular size, and lipid solubility.
>Researchers looked at 17,710 people and compared the 25% with the highest levels of xylitol in their blood against the 25% with the lowest.
>Those who had the highest amount were 57% more likely to die or suffer a heart attack or stroke, than those with the least, within six years. Even after 30 years, they were still 18% more likely to have suffered one of these cardiac events.
>Taken with data from the middle quartiles, the results from both cohorts suggested a dose-dependent relationship: the higher the xylitol blood levels, the higher the cardiovascular event rate.
>Furthermore, the researchers showed that there was consistent increase in cardiovascular events with xylitol irrespective of baseline characteristics, such as age and sex.
>The researchers also highlighted that the association was independent of underlying factors such as body mass index, hypertension, diabetes and lipid levels, which might predispose people to low-calorie products.
I really appreciate the article for including answers to the common "but did they also consider..." questions.
Yeah this same kind of story was coming out about erythritol like a year or two ago and it's still all over the shelves. Until they're legally barred from including it in products they're just going to keep doing it, regardless of the health effects because that is not their goal, profit is
>Dr. Hazen’s ... study shows that erythritol is closely associated with risk for “major adverse cardiovascular events.” In other words, people who have high blood levels of erythritol are more prone to heart attacks, stroke and even death...
>“We were looking for compounds in blood that predict risk for experiencing a future heart attack or stroke. The top candidate that kept showing up was erythritol,” he shares.
>Taking it a step further, the researchers gave erythritol to non-human models. They saw enhanced clot formation in models of arterial disease. They added erythritol to blood outside of the body. And they found that adding erythritol to blood made it “clump up,” or form a blood clot by lowering the threshold to activate platelets.
Xylitol is in so much stuff. For those of you eating Stevia based sweeteners they usually use xylitol as a main filler and cutting agent because stevia alone is way too sweet.
It's usually Erythritol with Stevia, exactly because it's less sweet. That said, Erythritol has the exact same risks, so it's not like the distinction matters.
In the study 10 people got 30 grams (around 1 oz) of xylitol, that's a quite small group and a rather large amount for chewing gum or tooth paste (maybe not for jam).
So, as in all things, the dose matters
I chew a fair amount of orbitz peppermint, there’s some xylitol but not much. Not concerned. So many other things in my life prob worse for me than my gum.
Sweeteners aren't a good substitute for sugar. The best thing is to make the products we eat less sweet, or eat less sweet things in general.
See also this article https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/dec/08/artificial-sweeteners-price-of-sugar-free-are-they-as-harmless-as-we-thought:
"Contrary to the claims so often made for them, the researchers found consistent evidence that consuming a lot of sweeteners was associated with an
increased risk of type 2 diabetes (as well as higher risk of heart disease). Similarly, when it came to weight, they found that people who consumed a lot of sweeteners were more likely to gain weight over the long term (though the report also noted that short-term studies, lasting three months or less, showed that switching from sugary drinks to artificially sweetened ones resulted in modest weight loss of 0.71kg)."
The dose makes the poison, right? So, people who are guzzling xylitol drinks, slathering xylitol jam (THERE IS XYLITOL JAM??) on toast, etc., will likely be in a class entirely removed from thos using it in dental products, like toothpaste or the occasional Zellies mint throughout the day. I am in the latter camp, and used Zellies to quit smoking and over time have reduced but not eliminated my use of Zellies. So, to me, this is still harm reduction but I am under the impression now that it is not a "zero harm" product. This is good information to have. Helps me and others like me make better future choices.
Back in the 80’s, I tried one of my mom’s “Velamints” and as soon as I did, my throat closed up and I couldn’t breathe for a few seconds. It was scary and the only ingredient that was different was xylitol. I’ve stayed away from it since.
drkevorkian | 11 hours ago
FYI, Xylitol is extremely toxic to dogs, our dog nearly died after eating some gum
cerrakin | 11 hours ago
Came here to post this. Having a young kid and dogs, it’s like I developed a sixth sense for when a pack of gum hits the floor or a grape rolls off a plate. Seems like kids are always (in)actively trying to kill the dogs.
phenomenomnom | 10 hours ago
I was today years old when I learned that grapes kill dogs.
Jeez, what potentially tragic yet simple everyday knowledge do I still have yet to acquire?
Let's see ... I know about quicksand, kidney beans, and killer baby swarms. What else?
twwilliams | 10 hours ago
Do you know about dark chocolate and dogs? What about onions?
johndoe60610 | 10 hours ago
Lots of peanut butters have xylitol. Toxic to dogs.
jaymzx0 | 8 hours ago
Also garlic!
phenomenomnom | 10 hours ago
Oh, yeah, dogs can definitely be dangerous. Good looking out
TraliBalzers | 4 hours ago
Tell me about the pinto beans.
phenomenomnom | 4 hours ago
It's actually kidney beans. Apologies. I mis-typed, and I'll change it above.
You have to boil them for 10 minutes or the toxin in them (PHA) will make you sick.
Canned beans are pre-cooked, so they are fine.
I thought of them, because that was another dangerous aspect of a common thing that I did not learn until I was well into adulthood!
desertdweller2011 | 5 hours ago
my grandma used to toss grapes in the air for her dog to catch and he lived to be like 17. not sure what the other factors are but their must be some.
phenomenomnom | 5 hours ago
Internet says there's a genetic component. I guess that pupper won the Russian Roulette championship
InsanityLurking | 33 minutes ago
I used to give my familys husky the occasional grape or two cuz he seemed to like them lol. Only learned they were toxic after I moved out. We came home one day to the doofus having somehow opened and drank a good portion of a 6 pack... He also liked carrots oddly enough. He lived till about 16 somehow
tullbabes | 11 hours ago
Growing up my parents would give our dog their medication in a grape. He was a massive black lab (over 100 lbs) and lived to 13 years old. Maybe his massive size saved him. And don’t worry, my parents have corrected their ways.
lazyplayboy | 10 hours ago
To be fair, grapes and xylitol are on a different level entirely.
Neither should ever be intentionally fed to dogs, absolutely, but grape ingestion is a bit of a roll of the dice. The risk may relate to tartaric acid content, which seems to vary wildly between grapes.
Xylitol, on the other hand, is absolutely straight-up fucking toxic.
desertdweller2011 | 12 hours ago
unfortunate that they don’t make a clear distinction between consuming xylitol (swallowing it) and oral care products. i use xylitol toothpaste and mouth rinse because it’s highly effective for periodontal disease. but you don’t swallow those.
Konukaame | 10 hours ago
I'd like to know what sort of consumption levels were associated with "the 25% with the highest levels of xylitol in their blood" but I think it's safe to assume that you'd fall into the lower categories.
desertdweller2011 | 3 hours ago
https://www.escardio.org/news/press/press-releases/xylitol-may-increase-the-risk-of-cardiovascular-events/ weirdly this was published 36 mins ago. as is often the case, this news article is not based on a peer reviewed published study. we have no idea what the methodology was or who funded the study or conditions (health conditions, class, etc) it controlled for, if any.
desertdweller2011 | 3 hours ago
yea same and i just tried to find the study from the article and can’t. i found another news article saying the results of the study linking xylitol consumption and cardiovascular health have not been published or peer reviewed.
Beyou74 | 12 hours ago
Unfortunately you still consume it in small amounts.
desertdweller2011 | 12 hours ago
the amount you ingest through the mucous membranes is negligible
Beyou74 | 11 hours ago
Is it?
desertdweller2011 | 11 hours ago
yep! it is. contact time with the mucous membranes is short and the concentration of xylitol is very low in a toothpaste. toothpaste and mouthwash both tend to have low bioavailability because they don’t sit in your mouth long enough for much of it to cross the tissue into the bloodstream.
Beyou74 | 11 hours ago
But in gum it does?
desertdweller2011 | 11 hours ago
yep and you’re swallowing it then. would love to see studies about how much you ingest with chewing gum, but to my knowledge there are none (and i’ve researched it heavily)
TheJarisaDoor3 | 11 hours ago
So there's no research, but they still put it in gum? Can we all see what's wrong with this process?
S_A_N_D_ | 9 hours ago
Often they're considered safe because we already naturally consume these sugars and sugar alcohols in fruits and vegetables (in small amounts).
The issue isn't whether they can be consumed safely, rather it's a question of what the safe limit is. Normal sugar (sucrose)is also linked to heart attacks, strokes, and a whole host of diseases, depending on consumption level.
The other issue is that there is research to say it's safe but "safe" can mean different things and people didn't necessarily consume as much as when it was first introduced so they weren't looking at a miniscule bump in stroke and cardiac events (miniscule on an absolute risk level, not a relative one).
TheJarisaDoor3 | 9 hours ago
This makes a lot of sense. Since it's derived from actual sugars they assumed that since sugars were safe (relatively and in moderation), that it should be safe also. However, they never considered the strengths or how much people would use it.
They actually did the same thing with Splenda, touting it as the healthy alternative because it was derived from sugar, and now it's also considered unsafe. I'm old enough to remember those ads when it first came out. Splenda was the safe alternative to equal and saccharine. So you get everybody hooked on it, and then they find out it's not safe either.
There's got to be a better way
tullbabes | 11 hours ago
Welcome to the USA.
Beyou74 | 11 hours ago
I just read more about it. It isn't gum chewing, if it was then brushing your teeth should be the same, both ingest small amounts. It is when it is used as sweetener in food and beverages.
mooseLimbsCatLicks | 9 hours ago
With gum you’re swallowing the gum juices right ? Not spitting it out like toothpaste
Beyou74 | 9 hours ago
Do you really think you never swallow any toothpaste?
mooseLimbsCatLicks | 8 hours ago
Sure you do a bit.
Do you think you swallow a lot more while chewing gum for extended periods?
Beyou74 | 8 hours ago
I never swallow.
desertdweller2011 | 11 hours ago
i’m not some artificial sweetener stan, i fully agree they shouldn’t be in our food.
Beyou74 | 11 hours ago
I didn't think you were, lol
phuktup3 | 10 hours ago
I am, and we are small proud group of sweetener stans, part of the larger community of people defending artificial sweetness in general
Beyou74 | 10 hours ago
Do you have a newsletter?
Djcnote | 11 hours ago
Absolutely not sure. Do you know how much cocine you need to rub on your gums to feel numb? Like close to nothing
desertdweller2011 | 5 hours ago
yea rubbing pure xylitol into your gums would not be the same as swishing/brushing and spitting out something that has a low percentage of xylitol in it. also, different things absorb through mucous membranes differently based on their: chemical properties, molecular size, and lipid solubility.
Konukaame | 10 hours ago
>Researchers looked at 17,710 people and compared the 25% with the highest levels of xylitol in their blood against the 25% with the lowest.
>Those who had the highest amount were 57% more likely to die or suffer a heart attack or stroke, than those with the least, within six years. Even after 30 years, they were still 18% more likely to have suffered one of these cardiac events.
>Taken with data from the middle quartiles, the results from both cohorts suggested a dose-dependent relationship: the higher the xylitol blood levels, the higher the cardiovascular event rate.
>Furthermore, the researchers showed that there was consistent increase in cardiovascular events with xylitol irrespective of baseline characteristics, such as age and sex.
>The researchers also highlighted that the association was independent of underlying factors such as body mass index, hypertension, diabetes and lipid levels, which might predispose people to low-calorie products.
I really appreciate the article for including answers to the common "but did they also consider..." questions.
fairie_poison | 11 hours ago
I wonder if this extends to erythritol. Body Armor Lyte has something like 20 grams of erythritol in a 20 ounce drink.
JellyBellyBitches | 9 hours ago
Yeah this same kind of story was coming out about erythritol like a year or two ago and it's still all over the shelves. Until they're legally barred from including it in products they're just going to keep doing it, regardless of the health effects because that is not their goal, profit is
Konukaame | 10 hours ago
A quick google suggests that it may also be problematic:
>Dr. Hazen’s ... study shows that erythritol is closely associated with risk for “major adverse cardiovascular events.” In other words, people who have high blood levels of erythritol are more prone to heart attacks, stroke and even death...
>“We were looking for compounds in blood that predict risk for experiencing a future heart attack or stroke. The top candidate that kept showing up was erythritol,” he shares.
>Taking it a step further, the researchers gave erythritol to non-human models. They saw enhanced clot formation in models of arterial disease. They added erythritol to blood outside of the body. And they found that adding erythritol to blood made it “clump up,” or form a blood clot by lowering the threshold to activate platelets.
TheJarisaDoor3 | 12 hours ago
You would think that they would do the studies before they put it in all our food; but no, they need to kill people first.
Exile4444 | 11 hours ago
We are humanly limited from doing extensive research in to every last food additive on earth
TheJarisaDoor3 | 11 hours ago
So instead of just not putting stuff in food, we're going to treat people like lab rats? And I don't even want to get into the lab rat thing.
Exile4444 | 11 hours ago
Yeah, but I agree that we should be doing more regardless
mirh | 10 hours ago
Obviously we are talking about sub-threshold correlations that if any are only visible on samples of tens of thousands of people.
lazyplayboy | 10 hours ago
Clearly all those billions of people who are ingesting xylitol are dropping dead in the street with chewing gum stll between their teeth.
LeoKitCat | 9 hours ago
Xylitol is in so much stuff. For those of you eating Stevia based sweeteners they usually use xylitol as a main filler and cutting agent because stevia alone is way too sweet.
had3l | 2 hours ago
It's usually Erythritol with Stevia, exactly because it's less sweet. That said, Erythritol has the exact same risks, so it's not like the distinction matters.
wthyoutalkinbout | 9 hours ago
In the study 10 people got 30 grams (around 1 oz) of xylitol, that's a quite small group and a rather large amount for chewing gum or tooth paste (maybe not for jam).
So, as in all things, the dose matters
GOOD_BRAIN_GO_BRRRRR | 5 hours ago
Stop being rational! We should all panic and make health decisions based off of a reddit article!
ElstonGunn321 | 9 hours ago
I chew a fair amount of orbitz peppermint, there’s some xylitol but not much. Not concerned. So many other things in my life prob worse for me than my gum.
feastoffun | 7 hours ago
What about Allulose?
Texugee | 2 hours ago
Glucose, fructose, lactose, sucrose, allulose
Eh, it’s probably fine
ProBonoEschatologist | 7 hours ago
But what will people like me with intense oral fixations do?
Wrong answers only.
forexampleJohn | 11 hours ago
Sweeteners aren't a good substitute for sugar. The best thing is to make the products we eat less sweet, or eat less sweet things in general.
See also this article https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/dec/08/artificial-sweeteners-price-of-sugar-free-are-they-as-harmless-as-we-thought:
"Contrary to the claims so often made for them, the researchers found consistent evidence that consuming a lot of sweeteners was associated with an increased risk of type 2 diabetes (as well as higher risk of heart disease). Similarly, when it came to weight, they found that people who consumed a lot of sweeteners were more likely to gain weight over the long term (though the report also noted that short-term studies, lasting three months or less, showed that switching from sugary drinks to artificially sweetened ones resulted in modest weight loss of 0.71kg)."
snogo | 10 hours ago
Allulose appears to be pretty bullet proof in the research
_PhiloPolis_ | 3 hours ago
This is Food for Thought, not Thought for Food
ocherthulu | 3 hours ago
The dose makes the poison, right? So, people who are guzzling xylitol drinks, slathering xylitol jam (THERE IS XYLITOL JAM??) on toast, etc., will likely be in a class entirely removed from thos using it in dental products, like toothpaste or the occasional Zellies mint throughout the day. I am in the latter camp, and used Zellies to quit smoking and over time have reduced but not eliminated my use of Zellies. So, to me, this is still harm reduction but I am under the impression now that it is not a "zero harm" product. This is good information to have. Helps me and others like me make better future choices.
treelovingaytheist | 11 hours ago
Back in the 80’s, I tried one of my mom’s “Velamints” and as soon as I did, my throat closed up and I couldn’t breathe for a few seconds. It was scary and the only ingredient that was different was xylitol. I’ve stayed away from it since.
ilessthanthreekarate | 9 hours ago
Well yeah, that sounds like an allergy. Its always a "good idea" to stay away from allergens.