DARPA’s new X-76

218 points by newer_vienna a day ago on hackernews | 190 comments

dash2 | a day ago

“ With SPRINT, we're not just building an X-plane; we're building options”. Found the guy who couldn’t be bothered to write his own press release…

notahacker | a day ago

Good to hear that the DoD's new contract with OpenAI is solving all the most important problems...

O5vYtytb | a day ago

It's a quote from someone...?

jdiez17 | a day ago

... who probably wrote their prepared PR statement with an LLM.

esseph | a day ago

I have always talked/written like this. now that LLMs do it in a similar enough way, my own writing gets called AI slop. I just wish my rotator cuffs knew I was a robot.

jacquesm | a day ago

Skimping on the service again, are we?

irl_zebra | a day ago

It's probably good signal at least, if not a bit of a harsh thing to say that I don't mean in a bad way, that your writing was bland or mediocre since LLMs are basically regression to the mean.

bigyabai | a day ago

It feels like DARPA has fallen so far. In a post-Salt Typhoon era it's really hard to imagine them as dynamic, best-in-class innovators anymore.

ambicapter | a day ago

This administration doesn't really prioritize anything that has to do with intelligence, so advanced research was obviously going to fall by the wayside.

browsingonly | 23 hours ago

bigyabai | 23 hours ago

No search results for "Salt Typhoon" as the query. This nation really is fucked.

ambicapter | 22 hours ago

What are you saying? Do you think my claim was that all US research programs have closed up shop?

irl_zebra | a day ago

I think I'd rather have them working on airplane tech rather than writing airplane tech press releases. With this approach, it's not just a tactical thing; it's relieving the burden of wordsmithing from technical people.

jdiez17 | a day ago

You're absolutely right.

bigfishrunning | a day ago

The technical people were never wordsmithing, they just didn't hire a technical writer. Instead of freeing up someone to do more design work, it freed someone to interview for a new job. I hope they get it.

binkHN | a day ago

It was a GPT.

irl_zebra | a day ago

Or, at least, my take on GPT. :) I promise I am a human.

palmotea | 23 hours ago

> The technical people were never wordsmithing, they just didn't hire a technical writer. Instead of freeing up someone to do more design work, it freed someone to interview for a new job. I hope they get it.

Do technical writers work on press releases? This sounds more like a job for the public relations/corporate communications department.

[OP] newer_vienna | a day ago

I'm quite fond of the caption, which describes a "a proof-of-concept technology demonstrator that aims to demonstrate technologies and concepts"

NitpickLawyer | a day ago

Brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department.

PowerElectronix | a day ago

It looks like a maintenance nightmare with those clutches to decouple the blades and the mechanisms to have them folded during cruising. Does it even improve substantially in anh metric over the V280 to put money into it?

cucumber3732842 | a day ago

The V280 is designed to be cheap (a very relative term here).

Reading between the lines, I suspect "fast, but also expensive" was a design option that popped up and was not chosen earlier in the V280 program and now Darpa wants to pay to see where it goes.

Zigurd | a day ago

Hard to be more expensive than F-35B.

XorNot | a day ago

The F-35 is cheaper then some new production 4th generation fighters at this point.

Zigurd | 23 hours ago

The sticker price is competitive but the cost per flight hour and the availability factor is pretty horrifying. Factoring in the cost of flying and the availability makes the Grippen about half the cost.

I wonder if the flight hour cost of F 35 includes the maintenance it's undergoing when it's not available.

bigyabai | 23 hours ago

The Gripen is a fantastic jet, but you're basically describing the difference between a fourth and fifth generation platform. When Saab and Embraer roll out their own fifth-generation jets, they will also have to contend with expensive RAM coating and complex internal hardpoints.

Putting aside the export market, it's a small miracle that the F-35 turned out as well as it did. Having a mostly-common fighter airframe shared between the Navy, Marines and Air Force was a pipe dream in the 90s. America is lucky the program didn't collapse entirely.

jandrewrogers | 23 hours ago

4th generation platforms like Grippen are not survivable in a modern air defense environment without complementary 5th generation platforms to establish air superiority. You can't avoid having a fleet of something like F-35 to gain control of the airspace.

sofixa | 23 hours ago

> modern air defense environment

Wildly dependent on your definition of "modern", which mostly depends on your potential adversary. The Russia/Ukraine, and the new war in the Gulf have shown numerous ways in which 4th generation jets, and more importantly cheaper missiles and even more cheap drones can perform supression of enemy air defences and/or air support. Unless you're fighting the US or China, 4th gen jets are plenty. And even against US and US defended locations, cheap drones and missiles have been able to influct some pretty serious damage to critical infrastructure (like extremely expensive and rare radar systems). An adversary not crippled by extreme sanctions and corruption for decades might have been able to achieve even more, even with the total lack of airpower.

XorNot | 22 hours ago

Presuming that state of affairs will persist though is fraught.

It's quite likely that in about 5 years most military installations will have a mix of weapons to intercept those systems - and depending on a number of factors you could easily end up back at low performance drones being so reliably intercepted as to be a waste of munitions to deploy.

WW1 after all was based on exactly this thinking: surely the volume of an army would overcome the machine gun.

sofixa | 22 hours ago

> It's quite likely that in about 5 years most military installations will have a mix of weapons to intercept those systems - and depending on a number of factors you could easily end up back at low performance drones being so reliably intercepted as to be a waste of munitions to deploy.

That's unlikely. Anti-drone defences will only improve, yes, but autonomous drone swarms numbering in the thousands to tens of thousands are doable today, and few weapons systems can handle the rate of launch/fire required to combat that. Especially if there are follow-up waves mixing drones and heavy missiles against which your anti-drone defences wouldn't be enough.

> WW1 after all was based on exactly this thinking: surely the volume of an army would overcome the machine gun.

But building a cheap kamikaze drone costs much less than building a human.

XorNot | 22 hours ago

Define cheap and multiply by thousands. Ukrainian front line drones stopped being DJIs years ago.

They're now much closer to $3000 USD+ at the low end for an ISR vehicle. $8000+ for the more capable FPV kamikazes is the estimate for Russian models.

Which is comparable to a 155mm artillery shell. But with a lot less payload.

There's already literally millions of drones being produced and used per year in that conflict - and they've made a big impact, but the stability of the frontline also reveals that the impact of "swarms" is hardly overpowering (the obsession with them is also weird - if you had thousands of assets in the air, the last thing you'd do is put them all close together).

sofixa | 21 hours ago

> overpowering

As Iran shows, you don't need overpowering. You need to hit the enemy where it hurts them, like strategic infrastructure.

> "swarms" ... (the obsession with them is also weird - if you had thousands of assets in the air, the last thing you'd do is put them all close together)

On the contrary, a swarm allows you to overwhelm the enemy air defences, which allows you to hit targets, including those same air defences, without having to disable them first. Cf. Iran destroying a THAAD radar.

XorNot | 6 hours ago

Right - until anti-air measures designed to deal with voluminous relatively low performance threats get deployed. There's a reason Ukraine has been rolling out old school anti-aircraft and flak guns, and the modern variants are now starting to be produced - i.e. area effect microwave weapons and high energy lasers. Systems which aren't very useful if your adversary is highly capable, but which are effective if your adversary is relatively fragile. Again: volume turned out to be relatively useless in WW1 when the adversary had well placed machine guns.

But it's also an apples to oranges comparison: THAAD is in no way designed to intercept drone threats. The story here is closer to the US started a fight without actually investing in the sort of defenses which would deal with it - i.e. with a rack of Ukranian interceptor drones as part of the air defenses, the THAAD radar likely makes it.

greedo | 22 hours ago

4th generation aircraft are not sustainable in modern combat without a wide array of assistance from EW etc. The losses of aircraft in Ukraine on both sides are horrifying. The only reasons the Ukrainians persist is because they have no choice. The Russians can sit outside of the Ukrainian engagement range and lob semi-smart bombs, or air to air missiles at any Ukrainian aircraft that show up on their radar.

The real reason stealth is needed is as a counter to GBAD. Modern anti-aircraft missiles are incredible lethal.

sofixa | 21 hours ago

> "modern combat"

> have no choice

That's my point. Any battlefield today is "modern", but militaries operate with what they have. From Russia to the Houthis passing via the Houthis, we've seen insane amounts of damage done on "a modern battlefield" with anything from Cold War era equipment to cheap drones assembled by a terrorist group living in the mountains with no industrial base.

Yes, if the US wants to fight China, and vice versa, it needs 5th gen jets. Everyone else doesn't need them. They're nice to have to make your job easier (like Israel vs Iran), but don't guarantee you anything (like Israel vs Iran).

lukan | 21 hours ago

"4th generation aircraft are not sustainable in modern combat without a wide array of assistance from EW etc. "

But isn't that true of the F35 as well?

On it's own, I doubt it would survive much longer on the eastern front in Ukraine.

In Iran the F-35 also did not fly around freely while the ground radars were active. They had to be taken out first. For that stealth was probably useful (and in general it is).

But it is not making them invisible - and cheap sensors and AI is likely to counter it soon. Because sensors and analysis will get better over time and sensors also better and cheaper. But the stealth will remain largely the same. It cannot really be upgraded for existing jets.

dylan604 | 21 hours ago

> cheap sensors and AI is likely to counter it soon.

The burning question is what decision would AI make in Pearl Harbor. Would it have said flock of birds? Would it be keying in on flocks of birds instead?

jandrewrogers | 18 hours ago

The F-35 is one of the most advanced EW platforms currently flying. That’s the main reason everyone wants it. It has an exceptional ability to detect modern threats and self-protect against them.

By all accounts the F-35 did fly freely over Iran but the weaponry for killing ground radars are all long-range stand-off weapons so that 4th gen aircraft can use them. Many times those weapons are cued by stealth aircraft within range of the ground radars but launched by 4th gen carrying them from farther away. This is pretty standard US doctrine.

The F-35 specifically was designed for environments like Ukraine. The combat there is shaped by the lack of capability like that from either side.

Russia/Ukraine war shows that 4th generation jets are not survivable in any current as of 2026 air defense environment.

bigyabai | 14 hours ago

4th generation jets are not designed to survive denied airspace. They're still useful; both sides in Ukraine are using 4th gen jets for air patrol, SEAD, escorts, intercepts and standoff munition launches.
Nothing that makes them jet fighters is used. Propeller planes with launchers could do the same.

jandrese | 21 hours ago

There is an argument that all manned fighters are already obsolete thanks to the proliferation of cheap drones and that establishing air superiority is a very different task now.

nradov | 20 hours ago

There is no such argument among people who actually know how this stuff works. Cheap drones might work pretty well for trench warfare in Ukraine but it's impossible to build a cheap drone that would be effective in a conflict with China over Taiwan. The distances alone mean that aircraft must be large just to get there, and thus not cheap regardless of whether there's a crew onboard.

Autonomous flight control software is still only able to handle the simplest missions. Maybe that will change in a few years but for now anything complex requires a remote pilot, and those communication links are very vulnerable.

bigyabai | 14 hours ago

That's really just X/Twitter conjecture. We don't see this argument substantiated in any modern air combat anywhere in the world.

edgyquant | 9 hours ago

There really is not, this argument was a total discredit of Elon Musks opinions on anything military. Case in point, Iran has been a major user of these drones yet they’ve been out of the game against an enemy with a real air force

UltraSane | 21 hours ago

The Grippen is incredibly vulnerable to anti air missiles.

throwaway2037 | 8 hours ago

Are there any non-stealth fighter jets that are not "incredibly vulnerable to anti air missiles"?

simonh | 23 hours ago

I've had to eat some humble pie and moderate my assessment of the F-35. It still does have a lot of issues, for sure, but it turns out if you divide an eye wateringly large number by another impressively large number, the result can be a lot better than I thought it would be.

It's lot more about operational costs and project deliverables than plain sticker shock, and it is turning out to be a capable platform.

rootusrootus | 23 hours ago

> I've had to eat some humble pie and moderate my assessment of the F-35

Same for me. I was surprised to hear that it actually competes favorably on price. And aside from early griping that it couldn't beat an ancient F-16 in a dogfight, it seems pretty capable in that regard too. Saw a demo at the last airshow I went to and that plane was defying physics. I love the 16, always will, but I definitely don't think it would hang with an F-35.

esseph | 22 hours ago

In a real fight, the F-35 smokes the F-16 beyond visual range before the F-16 even knows there is a problem. The radar and electronic warfare capabilities are incredible.

dylan604 | 21 hours ago

Isn't modern tactics to not use onboard radar but to be driven in by airborne radar from AWACs? Or is it used once in the furball as the jig is up at that point?
Modern tactics are to use every radar around via datalink (AWACS, Ground Station, stealthy drones flying ahead). The onboard radar is last resort, but still very capable.

dylan604 | 20 hours ago

Right, so I wonder what difficulties they are having with the F-16 to retrofit the new package to receive the same datalink.

kevin_thibedeau | 19 hours ago

The US is stuck with older F-16s than the current export models with advanced radar. They're gradually being upgraded with some Block 70 components. That requires the new cockpit so it isn't just a quick part substitution.

rootusrootus | 16 hours ago

Useless tidbit about myself: Back in the mid-90s I was in the USAF in the 552nd Air Control Group, and the team I was on specifically did the 'external test' of the data link. Spent a lot of time in a simulator pushing buttons pretending to be an AWACS guy on a plane while recording all of the data, then later painstakingly comparing that data to the manual log and radio recordings.

I would be interested to see how far they've brought the technology in the intervening, uh ... 30 years. Damn. That old computer (old by technology, ours was pretty new in practical terms) was the only mainframe I've ever used. Booted it up by loading a tape reel and programming registers. I still remember that the 'happy' code was something like 0B00BE in between cycles, anything else and it had crashed.

/end trip down memory lane

dylan604 | 15 hours ago

I'm sure everyone's inner 13 year old laughed at the code to the point you have to wonder if the devs didn't deliberately pick it

mmooss | 17 hours ago

My very amatuer understanding is that modern combat for the US is based on a 'combat network', which creates a massive situational advantage by connecting all sensors - on satellites, planes, drones, ground radars, from intelligence, etc. - in a network and sharing the data across the network.

The F-35 is designed as a node in that network, and afaik is one of the most advanced sensor nodes. It also receives data from the network, but it is a major contributor (partly due to operating in front, often in enemy territory, etc., afaik).

Part of using the network data is having an onboard computer that can make sense of it. Even in older planes without the network input and with smaller sensor areas, pilots faced cognitive overload from trying to interpret relatively raw data from a half-dozen or more sensors each on their own output device (screen, etc). - what's a bird, what's an ally, what's a non-combatant, what's an enemy and what's a missile - all while piloting a plane, being shot at, etc. F-35's have a computer that integrates the inputs, refines the data, identifies objects, and displays that in a unified UI on ~1 screen.

Another reason for the investment in its sensors is that situational awareness is considered by far the most decisive factor in air combat. Whoever sees and shoots first tends to win. Also, it needs to survive and be effective if cut off from outside communications.

budman1 | 22 hours ago

all these cost assessments are numbers on a spreadsheet. let's see what the numbers look like after 20 years on the line, with SrA mechanics and most flight hours by new Lt's and Captains. if they over-estimate the engine rebuild time, or if it really takes 2 hours instead of 30 minutes to remove and replace an avionics box (as was forecast), the calculation can veer in the other direction quickly. i predict the F35 will be the most expensive by flying hour of any (line) aircraft that has come before it.

simonh | 6 hours ago

Right, that may well all be true, but the capabilities it brings to the table could still be worth it. I'm not saying I know the answer, but it's a lot more of an open question than I thought it would be a few years ago.

rluna828 | a day ago

it also has stealth. This is a complete disaster. The only purpose of this stealth ship is to steal leaders and or go inside cave lairs and blow them up.

budman1 | 22 hours ago

without stealth, an aircraft will survive about 5 minutes in contested airspace.

carabiner | 23 hours ago

All military aircraft are maintenance nightmares. They're also extraordinarily loud and devour fuel. These are not intended to entire commercial service where they need to turn a profit for the operators.

giancarlostoro | 22 hours ago

> They're also extraordinarily loud and devour fuel.

Steal helicopters have entered the chat.

greedo | 22 hours ago

Comanche was cancelled, and even it was loud and gulped fuel. The "stealth" Blackhawk derivative used in the Bin Laden raid might be quieter, but it definitely gulped a ton of fuel. Fuel consumption is just an accepted issue with helicopter technology.

jjk166 | 22 hours ago

Maintenance is an issue for more than just profitability. More maintenance means fewer sorties in a given time period, heavier reliance on and utilization of supply chains, and fewer platforms that can be serviced by a given set of mechanics and facilities.

Just look at WW2: Germany had some fantastic equipment, but they couldn't field it because they didn't have the fuel, spare parts and the maintenance capabilities available. A tiger could kill 10 Shermans, but the Americans could always bring up an 11th Sherman.

For decades we have been able to afford complacency - we strike when we're ready against people who mostly can't strike back. We can afford to be wasteful because we have so much more than anyone we would go up against. No one is seriously threatening our ability to keep our military going. But militaries need to be prepared for peer conflicts where someone could give us a run for our money.

greedo | 22 hours ago

The comparison in tech is apt, but the countervailing argument is that the discrepancy in economies doomed the Nazis in WW2. German was a little powerhouse considering the size of its population, but it only had half the GDP of the US, not to mention the other Allies. Combine this with a smaller population, and it really didn't matter what the Germans did in terms of equipment. They were destined to lose unless they struck gold with a wunderwaffe like the atomic bomb.

In today's world, the US outspends the next 10 countries combined. In normal times, it values the lives of its servicemen, and is willing to spend quite a bit to ensure dominance. So it will often have boutique gear that other countries could never afford.

jjk166 | 21 hours ago

That's not a countervailing argument, that is the argument. The side able to apply more industrial power defeated the side with more capable but less useful equipment.

The US outspends the next 10 countries combined in peace times. By comparison, Germany outspent the US on its military by a factor of 20 on the eve of WW2. Obviously once the war got going, the US' immense industrial capacity (along with the other Allies; the British Empire and the Soviet Union had the number 2 and 3 GDPs) was unstoppable.

We no longer live in the age where the US represents half of the world GDP and the bulk of that is manufacturing. China's has a larger economy in terms of Purchasing Power Parity, it has extensive manufacturing capacity, and a vast population. If push came to shove, we wouldn't be able to simply outspend them. In that hypothetical conflict we are the germany with a bunch of questionably useful wunderwaffe.

15155 | 4 hours ago

> we wouldn't be able to simply outspend them

You're right: we would simply starve them (in addition to strategic bombing of all of these manufacturing centers.)

They do not possess the food calorie production to sustain their population, nor do they have the arable land to magically begin to do so.

> we are the germany with a bunch of questionably useful wunderwaffe.

We have outstanding fast attack submarines which can't be stopped by ASBMs: exactly zero freighters carrying food from South America or crude oil would be permitted.

KaiserPro | 22 hours ago

> A tiger could kill 10 Shermans, but the Americans could always bring up an 11th Sherman.

Supply is one part, being able to repair is another. The tiger was a massive pain in the dick to fix. It had a weak gearbox that took _hours_ to get to.

Plus most of the parts were bespoke, which means lots more tooling needed to service everything. The other thing is that germany wasn't actually that mechanised compared to the french, or english

jjk166 | 21 hours ago

> The tiger was a massive pain in the dick to fix. It had a weak gearbox that took _hours_ to get to.

Which is exactly the topic under discussion.

conorcleary | 21 hours ago

Stopping war gets cheaper every day.

jcgrillo | 21 hours ago

The F-35s train over my house. When the business end of the engine points downward it rattles the windows and sounds like freedom.

dylan604 | 21 hours ago

I was on a film shoot that was interrupted by a pair of F-18s going low and slow on burners that took forever for audio to give the all clear. The killer part was we were in a downtown park, and could not determine why in the world they would have been performing that maneuver there. There were more than windows shaking.

roysting | 19 hours ago

The Congressional Country Club doesn't pay for itself, bud.

ceejayoz | a day ago

So it's an Osprey with a jet in the back?

torginus | a day ago

Usually with these programs, they just commission an artist with some vague description, like they tell him to draw a futuristic VTOL aircraft, these pics have zero bearing on what gets delivered.

Sometimes they even take the piss with this, like in this video for a next-gen engine, where you can see their engine doesn't even fit in their fantasy aircraft:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCHun6rxQm0

dylan604 | 21 hours ago

That's got to be one of the most comically bad compositing I've seen in a while. I can't believe someone said, looks good, ship it.

porphyra | a day ago

Cool, I guess this should be able to hover in much more "austere" environments than the F-35B STOVL and the Harrier Jet. Tiltrotor with folding rotor blades sounds very mechanically complex and challenging though.

idontwantthis | a day ago

Isn't this need already met by the Bell V280 that the army already selected for it's Blackhawk replacement? What is the big innovation they are going for here?

Tuna-Fish | a day ago

+50% top speed over the V280. Bell offered it as an alternative to the V280 in the early stage of the contract, but it was judged too experimental (and probably too expensive). Apparently DARPA is funding further development of the concept.

mrDmrTmrJ | a day ago

To be clear, this is not a power-point program but a continuation of a long-standing design work with Bell.

Two articles that cover this in depth are: 1. Revised Fold-Away Rotor Aircraft Concepts Emerge From Special Operations X-Plane Program. December 2024: https://www.twz.com/air/revised-fold-away-rotor-aircraft-con...

2. Bell’s Plan To Finally Realize A Rotorcraft That Flies Like A Jet But Hovers Like A Helicopter. September 2021: https://www.twz.com/41997/bells-plan-to-finally-realize-a-ro...

The second article covers decades of prior wind tunnel testing on the folding rotor concept.

moralestapia | a day ago

>decades of prior wind tunnel testing on the folding rotor concept

Oof, I wish I had a job like that.

trhway | 20 hours ago

join an enterprise software BigCo.

username223 | 16 hours ago

> Oof, I wish I had a job like that.

Focus on something and become one of the best in the world at it. Expertise pays.

trhway | 21 hours ago

> continuation of a long-standing design work with Bell.

sunk investment. The success - it made into production in meaningful numbers - of V-22 means that design will be beaten to death.

Even though Bell X-22 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFdV5CVXGGw) was much better as prop VTOL than V-22, and for jet VTOL Ryan XV-5 Vertifan (look how great it is flying https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwvkjFIYWR8 ) was much better than F-35 has been and X-76 will be.

And giving pilotless future of combat air, a tail sitter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail-sitter will work great in pilotless version not needing all that folding/tilting hardware. A pilotless would also not have to have at least double engines/etc for reliability (and the monstrosity of interconnect between those 2 engines like V-22 has and X-76 is bound to have).

phplovesong | a day ago

The swedish gripen can do mach2 (2300km/h) and does not need a traditional runway (500 meters of something "flat enough" will do). I assume its way cheaper than something like this.

RandallBrown | a day ago

Can it hover?

Zigurd | a day ago

I suppose the argument is that X-76 could work in environments without roads. But that also implies without fuel or any other support on the ground.

gorgoiler | 14 hours ago

That doctrine works great for defending your homeland, when you are taking off from your roadside base and coming back home to a road-based airfield already on the map.

My understanding of these VTOL aircraft is they need to travel a long way, quickly, and set down in far less predictable conditions.

phplovesong | 10 hours ago

Are you saying these are for human transport? Sounds like real niche in modern warfare.

bilsbie | a day ago

I’d go for simplicity and do a tail lander.

usrusr | 22 hours ago

These days my vote would go to a quad. Impeller fore, impeller aft and one in each wing. Behind doors, obviously, like the bays for retractable landing gear - this is a solved problem.

They don't have to be efficient, because how much hovering time would you really need? Battery could even exist only in mission specific pods (internal perhaps, when it's a cargo carrier), trade-off as needed.

bilsbie | 22 hours ago

Electric motors are very light too.

KaiserPro | 21 hours ago

> They don't have to be efficient

Thats the point, the more efficient the less supply line you need, which means more autonomy.

I cant find the source but in Afghanistan a large proportion of the Allied casualties were from protecting supply lines.

The thing about quad copters is that they work at small scale because the rotor have almost no inertia. When you scale that up to 2m, then inertia is a bitch. That means you need tilting blades to make up for that lack of control.

BUT

You also need something to be powerful enough to alter the speed of the rotors to get yaw.

Plus you then also need to get them all to rotate so that you can get the efficiency of normal flight.

The reason why the osprey exists is because it has longer range than a helicopter (~1200 miles vs 400) its also faster.

usrusr | 19 hours ago

> Plus you then also need to get them all to rotate so that you can get the efficiency of normal flight.

Not when you simply don't use them for horizontal flight. You just shut the VTOL hatches and forget that you aren't a conventional airplane until you want to land but there isn't an airstrip.

Winged operation has to be efficient, no doubt about that. But hovering does not need much endurance when it's only for getting away from the ground and setting down.

Electric has the power density, even more so when you don't need the power for a long time (heat buildup, no need for an equilibrium). Electric suffers from energy density, but that's where the winged mode comes in (old fashioned jet turbine, with the generator slightly larger than usual so that you'll have full batteries for the short landing hover)

bilsbie | a day ago

So it has jet engines that blades unfold and attach to during takeoff and landing? Why not always use the blades?

rluna828 | a day ago

stealth

KaiserPro | 21 hours ago

Speed and efficiency I suspect

Targeting a propeller for both raw lifting capacity as well as speed is quite difficult. I suspect they have different geometry as well.

If you spin a propeller fast enough the tips break the speed of sound, from what I recall that knackers the efficency. To generate lots of lift a bigger rotor is more efficient (hence why helicopters have long rotoblades that don't spin at high RPM)

The longer the blades the faster the tips, which means there is a tradeoff between thrust and speed of the air being yeeted out the back

numpad0 | 17 hours ago

My armchair general understanding: airspeed at blade tip can't be supersonic all the time, and that caps the max forward speed for prop driven aircraft. Same don't apply to jet engines with air intakes that can restrict and slow air flow

greatgib | a day ago

I can't access darpa.mil. Was it slashdotted because of the article being posted here, or now it is unavailable outside of US?

logotype | a day ago

I can access it from the UK

[OP] newer_vienna | a day ago

Still up here in the US

dang | a day ago

rcMgD2BwE72F | a day ago

Inaccessible from France. With family.dns.mullvad.net private DNS.

HumblyTossed | a day ago

Hmmm... that just looks like problems. It's a lot of mechanical parts that always have to work correctly.

01100011 | a day ago

The Osprey killed a lot of Marines over the past decades. It took a while to work out the issues. Hopefully we will remember what the Osprey taught us.

dang | a day ago

"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

HumblyTossed | 6 hours ago

I respect what you're saying, but I disagree. It really is a valid opinion to have. I don't believe I was being overly dismissive here.
The difference may be that you, who know more about these things, have in your head the state needed to appreciate the statement. The comment may be brief, but that's because it's compressed, not because (for you) it's shallow. It's like the old joke where the prisoners know all the jokes so well they just call them out by number.

But those of us who know less don't have that information, and since the comment didn't explicitly deliver it, there's no way to learn from it. What to you is a compressed valid opinion ends up landing like a shallow dismissal.

What works better on HN is for the commenter to share some of what they know, so the rest of us can learn, and so the comment itself becomes substantive with supporting information, details, etc. Then we won't just know that you disapprove of, e.g., a particular aircraft design, but will also have some idea of why.

It can be hard to remember to do this, because most of us take the extra state in our heads for granted.

crimsoneer | a day ago

Someone has played the new Deus Ex games

rluna828 | a day ago

I wonder is Iran would have gone different if we had captured the Ayatollah instead of killing him. A stealth drop ship like this would have allowed that to happen. The reason why regimes are more likely to negotiate when you capture their leaders is because you might release them. (not a good day for the usurper.)

ivell | a day ago

I don't think whatever is negotiated with Iran's current regime would actually be honored by them. They may commit something to get their leader back, but won't be keeping the promises.

Their self stated goal is destruction of Israel and US. They could have chosen peace and not have funded proxies across the middle east. Their choice of aggression by whatever means they have at their disposal just shows what their long term strategy would be.

They have shown the intend. They just didn't have the capacity to follow through. Once they gain the capacity, they could go extreme lengths. Just see how they attacked their neighbors who were not party to the war.

jrapdx3 | 23 hours ago

A very good response to the parent comment and summary of the current situation.

AIUI the Iranian attack on Arab countries is strategic, increasing energy costs pressures the US to stop military action. However the US and allies were prepared with set aside oil reserves, increasing supplies from other sources, and reducing Iran's ability to interfere with shipping.

Major warfare always has tragic effects, but against regimes actively pursuing destruction of other nations, return of fire is a rational response.

otabdeveloper4 | a day ago

> A stealth drop ship like this would have allowed that to happen.

Yeah, I saw that Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. episode too.

Sadly, we might need some more intensive vibranium research before it becomes reality.

trelliumD | a day ago

that already exists in the form of Saab Gripen :)

FrankBooth | a day ago

Where do the 14 soldiers sit in the Gripen?

rkomorn | a day ago

On the wings, obviously, for quick deployment. Maybe I mean early deployment.

adolph | a day ago

Shades of: Being strapped to the sponsons of an AH-64 is one wild, but potentially life-saving ride.

https://www.twz.com/38435/this-is-all-the-survival-gear-that...

rkomorn | a day ago

The straps just need to be a little stronger!

throwaway2037 | 8 hours ago

Totally off-topic, but that photo is wild. How do you not go deaf riding so close to jet turbine!? Can earplugs really reduce noise that much?

radicalethics | a day ago

I wonder what the motivation behind this is. Tactically, why ever show your latest weapon? What is the strategic purpose of this? It's like if I message my opponent in SC2 and tell them exactly what I'm going to tech to. That's ... insane right? Why would anyone do that?

benjcpalm | a day ago

It's not a tactical choice- it's strategic deterrence, and it's not insane at all!

The US has always had a policy of messaging programs, with a lean toward classifying some percentage of the specific capabilities.

There's a reason that F-35 program was publicized by the US government as the program was under development. It makes the US air force even scarier, which discourages adversaries from thinking about conventional warfare with America.

That said- you won't see any detailed pics of the inside of an F35 cockpit, or a detailed look at the heads up display in the fancy helmet. That's top secret, because those making those details public don't offer enough additional deterrence to justify the risk to the program.

bityard | a day ago

Yes, but even if the US didn't release the specifications of the F35, other countries around the world would rapidly figure out most of the capabilities anyway from photos, videos, and casual observation. (In other words, they'd know soon enough WHAT it can do but not necessarily HOW it does it.)

bityard | a day ago

This isn't a new weapon, this is a test platform for various ideas, none of which are new or secret. Also, there are not many groundbreaking advancements left in military aviation. Most are just fairly incremental engineering or manufacturing improvements. (Military space technology might be a different story, though.)

The only other nation with the potential to develop a high-tech military plane that could rival US technology would be China. But if we ever got into a war with China, they wouldn't need superior technology to win. They could win via superior manufacturing capacity and the sheer number of people they can draft into service at a moment's notice.

foobarian | a day ago

They could just cease all shipping. The consequences would be legendary.

jiggawatts | 21 hours ago

I don't know why you're being downvoted because clearly modern warfare is as much (or more) about the economic warfare aspect as the military one.

There are some rather bizarre examples such as Gaza attacking Israel, despite getting something like 50% of their electricity and 10% of their fresh water from Israel!

Attacking the supplier of critical civilian and industrial inputs would seem like a mistake nobody in their right mind would make, but... there you go.

I wouldn't be surprised if a future conflict with China over Taiwan would be primarily economic.

They threaten to stop shipping, we threaten to cut off the Internet and their banking, etc...

Similarly, the most knowledgeable experts are predicting that China's strategy with Taiwan will be to simply blockade the island and wait for them to capitulate.

Last but not least, this is also Iran's current strategy. By halting shipping through the Straight of Hormuz, they're waging war on the global economy much more effectively than bombing a few small military air strips in the region.

logicchains | 23 hours ago

>They could win via superior manufacturing capacity and the sheer number of people they can draft into service at a moment's notice.

Even with their manufacturing capacity they don't have remotely enough boats to get a nontrivial fraction of those people to the US mainland, and the majority of those people can't swim, so they wouldn't help in taking the US mainland, a requirement to "win" a serious war. Their entire armed forces is also almost completely lacking in combat experience, and in their last skirmish (against some unarmed Indian soldiers in the mountains) 30+ soldiers Chinese tragically drowned, due to the aforementioned lack of swimming ability.

wewtyflakes | 22 hours ago

How China frames victory and how the US frames victory needn't agree, and likely wouldn't. That being said, framing victory as only counting if there is a wholesale land invasion seems odd, as I suspect neither side would want to actually do that... so who 'wins'?

Alan_Writer | a day ago

I think they just show what it can be seen, like any country with advance military developments.

They won't show you everything.

Have you ever heard about those sound/sonic (or something similar) weapons the US used in Maduro's kidnap operation? Venezuelan soldiers said (pero some publications on the internet) that they never saw anything alike, leaving them completely disoriented and helpless?

Soldiers now can even see thermal figures through walls or solid materiales, and the same time, bacome invisibles.

It's more than sci-fi.

blincoln | 7 hours ago

> Soldiers now can even see thermal figures through walls or solid materiales

I have a thermal imager. They can't see through walls in the sense you're imagining. If there's an electric heating element inside a wall or a ceiling, you could get an image of that. If there's a camera or other active electronics hidden in a wall or object, you can see the heat from that.

You wouldn't be able to see a person in an adjacent room through the wall between the two rooms, unless the wall was made specifically of thermally-transparent material.

I've heard rumours of "see through walls" equipment in the US military before. If they really have something like that, it would have to be using technology other than thermal imaging.

laughing_man | 16 hours ago

Normally these kinds of press releases come out to generate public support for funding. I remember when the B-2 was super, super secret. No photos, "we don't know what you're talking about" answers from the military.

But when it looked like it might get cancelled pictures and exhibitions of it were suddenly everywhere.

kuprel | a day ago

From the image it doesn't look balanced for VTOL when the propellors are vertical. Also are the jets enabled during VTOL?

gorkish | 23 hours ago

I'm betting the person who created the "artist rendering" isnt an aeronautical engineer.

doublerabbit | 23 hours ago

Wager $10 it's a LLM prompt.

dmbche | a day ago

yabones | 23 hours ago

The next generations of accidents are going to be even more looney-tunes in nature.

conorbergin | 23 hours ago

The Osprey's accident rate is not that bad, and the US Army have ordered a new smaller tiltrotor, the v280.

owlninja | 23 hours ago

They officially named it recently to the 'MV-75'.

remarkEon | 16 hours ago

The Wikipedia page says this will replace UH-60s, but I just do not see how that airframe is a direct comparable to what’s been a workhorse for decades. Maybe it means only in a long range reconnaissance role? But even then, that mission is primarily owned by UAS platforms now. Confusing.

joha4270 | 11 hours ago

What is so unbelievable about that?

Sure, its going to take decades to actually make the transition and the UH-60 will remain in service for decades more after that in less demanding roles. I expect by the time this finishes, the MV-75 will be considered another workhorse, if maybe slightly fuzzier and the UH will be an antiquated platform.

But ultimately they both solve the same problem, moving stuff from A to B in rough terrain fast. But with the ever increasing amount of reconnaissance assets, A needs to be further behind the frontline and so range and speed needs to increase beyond what you can manage with a pure helicopter.

icegreentea2 | 7 hours ago

I imagine UH-60 and variants will continue to serve (who knows, maybe with new airframes) along side the MV-75 for quite a while, in a similar way to how UH-1s continued to be in use well after UH-60s were deployed in large numbers. This Congressional Research Service summary of the FLRAA/MV-75 program states that the Army has plans to continue ordering UH-60s (on the order of 255 between 2027 and 2031) - https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/IF12771

The key requirements that drive MV-75's downsides (size, complexity, cost) is the Army wants to play game in the Pacific. The UH-60 is deeply limited there.

For example, the MV-75's range should let it go (one-way) from Guam to the Philippines, straight from Okinawa to Taiwan (no need to island hop) - potentially as a two way mission. Same as Philippines to Taiwan.

The "comparability" is that the MV-75 and UH-60 can be delivery ~14 troops into an order magnitude similar size clearing.

remarkEon | 2 hours ago

Thank you! This context really clarifies what the use case is for this. The range difference matters.

rootusrootus | 23 hours ago

The Osprey has a reputation, for sure, but it's mid-pack. They called the F-104 the widow maker for a reason, for example. And the F-16 has a fairly high accident rate, too, slightly higher than the Osprey. Though I think the F-16's history is a bit more lopsided, they made some changes after early production airframes proved pretty accident prone.

sedatk | 22 hours ago

In Turkey, F-104 was called “flying coffin”.

TitaRusell | 7 hours ago

The Netherlands had problems with it too. The procurement of the Starfighter was also a huge corruption scandal. Lockheed was a very scummy company in the cold war.

hyperific | 20 hours ago

Maybe the Osprey's reputation is due not only to the accident rate but also to the fatality rate. A fatal accident in a standard F-16 (not the 2 seater), assuming no one outside the plane is killed, means 1 death. A fatal accident in a V-22 with the same assumptions would have a minimum of 2 deaths (pilot and copilot) at a soft maximum of 26 deaths (2 crew + 24 passengers, possibly more if overloaded).

remarkEon | 16 hours ago

This is correct.

ikekkdcjkfke | 8 hours ago

All flying craft that cannot glide by itself should have failsafe parachutes. If one engine goes out the other engine needs to stop too to prevent flipping. Parachute is easily acceseible behind a red lever with glass to break
> The Starfighter had a poor safety record, especially in Luftwaffe service. The Germans lost 292 of 916 aircraft and 116 pilots from 1961 to 1989, leading the German public to dub it Witwenmacher ("widowmaker").[0]

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-104_Starfighter

LargoLasskhyfv | 8 hours ago

That is because the Germans used it as all-weather fighter-bomber with more heavy load, in different airspaces, with different weather and terrain, as opposed to the initial, more air-superiority/interceptor concept. And had a different way of training their pilots. In masses. "Wo gehobelt wird fallen Späne. Ein bisschen Schwund ist immer da."

Other european airforces using them were more lucky, IIRC.

That aside, they could be seen as the exported rests of the bargain-basement of the MIC of the USA, when the USAF/Navy already had better options(seen as a whole weapon-system, not a few speed/climb/altitude records(for the initial, only lightly loaded version) which won't matter in real combat).

burnt-resistor | 22 hours ago

L PRGB CHIP BURN

Any time there are planetaries or splines attached to jet engines, it's a really weak spot. This holds for ordinary turboprops too.

GorbachevyChase | 17 hours ago

I was wondering why we’ve already give up on the harrier.

aksss | 16 hours ago

Well, it's a jet from the 60's, can only scrape mach 1 on the downhill, is in a CAS role, primarily. Cool jet, but it's old tech.

laughing_man | 16 hours ago

The Harrier is obsolete.

burnt-resistor | 12 hours ago

It was deafening too many pilots and Boeing, Lockheed, and Northrop needed more money. /s

The F-35B can also do Mach 1.6 and the stealth thing.

Some country should give that Pepsi contest winner a demil Harrier in lieu of Frontier Airline miles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_v._Pepsico%2C_Inc.

sandworm101 | a day ago

Different engines for different phases of flight? It has been tried many times and never really works. Such craft can be made to fly, but never well. The answer has to come from using one set to power all phases.

Id be interested in seeing a turboprop that can transition to a turbofan/jet once the prop is folded away. The f-35 was a step in this direction.

ocdtrekkie | a day ago

I'm confident with the stellar service and safety record of the V-22 that an even more complex tiltrotor will be a standout success for the military.

wartywhoa23 | a day ago

16 hull losses per ~400 units built is not exactly a stellar safety record.

Or I guess you mean /stellar?

jdkee | a day ago

He is being sarcastic.

cpgxiii | 23 hours ago

If you look at the V-22 safety record in the context of the level of technical development, it is pretty good (e.g. compare to helicopters and aircraft from the 60s). The first production generation of a brand new type of vehicle is always going to be complicated, and virtually all of the V-22 mishaps come from the "new" components and procedures.

The fundamental tradeoff with tiltrotor platforms is that you trade significantly increased speed for significantly increased complexity. What that means is your battlefield survivability goes up when dealing with any opponent with meaningful air defenses, but at the cost of increasing your "resting" accident rate when most peacetime accidents are consequences of maintenance and/or procedural issues.

greedo | 22 hours ago

Flying military aircraft is inherently dangerous. The US Army had 15 Class A mishaps in 2025, the USN 12, the USAF 14, and 6 for the USMC. The Apache (AH-64) led the Army, and this is a mature airframe, but shit happens.

laughing_man | 16 hours ago

The V-22's safety record is somewhere between a fixed wing aircraft and a helicopter. About what you'd expect.

mikkupikku | a day ago

Why won't they adopt one of Sikorsky's compound helicopters already? They're beautiful and elegant solutions to this problem.

cpgxiii | a day ago

Because Sikorski can't make them work. Sure, they can take off and fly fast in a straight line, but they haven't been able to demonstrate sufficient maneuverability due to vibration problems in the rotor head. They are also very tall, prohibitively so for existing shipboard hangar, which would otherwise seem to be their advantage over tiltrotor platforms.

brk | a day ago

I don't understand the purpose of the Xenon taillight.

tamimio | 23 hours ago

I think the blades are added there for deception, most likely it won’t have blades.
It will need blades to VTOL.

tamimio | 23 hours ago

They do exist, WIP, a bladless VTOL

https://newatlas.com/aircraft/jetoptera-bladeless-hsvtol/

> Jetoptera is developing VTOL (Vertical Take-Off and Landing) aircraft that use a "Fluidic Propulsion System" (FPS) instead of traditional rotors or propellers, acting like "bladeless fans on steroids". These systems use compressed air and the Coanda effect to generate high-speed thrust, promising quieter, more efficient, and faster flight (up to Mach 0.8) for aerial mobility.

bigyabai | 23 hours ago

Running exclusively off jet power would require an extremely (impossibly?) strong compressor stage coupled a powerful APU to generate lift. It's definitely not light enough to take off without tiltrotors.

tamimio | 23 hours ago

The concept is the compressed air sent through slits in a thruster, creating negative pressure that draws in surrounding air, resulting in increased thrust, there’s a concept already of this, check the above reply.

bigyabai | 23 hours ago

From that link, "the system delivers 10% more thrust [...] than a small turbojet."

They are still very deeply limited by compressor technology, regardless of whether they use combustion or electric propulsion.

0xWTF | 22 hours ago

So ... we're going to try even harder to put humans in harm's way?

rozab | 22 hours ago

It's cool they actually still commission concept paintings like this

smlacy | 22 hours ago

That background looks like AI for sure though?

reactordev | 21 hours ago

“Where we’re going, we don’t need roads”.

The Osprey is amazing, can’t wait to see what the X-76 can do.

einpoklum | 20 hours ago

And the US will use it to invade your country and kidnap your president if s/he doesn't do what Uncle Sam tells him to.

aussieguy1234 | 18 hours ago

What's the difference between this and standard VTOL?

meroes | 16 hours ago

Why? We just kill everything nowadays with missiles, bombs, and rockets-- heads of government, terrorist leaders, schools... so why are we investing in anything like this?

Seems like some kind of GI Joe fantasy that's gone on for too long.

gorgoiler | 14 hours ago

From recent events, operations like the Maduro extraction could always benefit from technology in the category “helicopter, but faster”.

lazzurs | 12 hours ago

All these comments and not one single reference to Airwolf.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airwolf

throwaway2037 | 8 hours ago

Under "Plot", I see:

    > The fictional Airwolf is an advanced prototype supersonic helicopter with stealth capabilities and a formidable arsenal.
I watched that show for years as a kid. I never knew it was both supersonic and stealth. Damn, DARPA must be jealous.

lproven | 8 hours ago

I read this last night.

AFAICS it's a turbojet tilt-rotor with folding rotors? Is that a fair summary?

Sounds fun but also somewhat terrifying. The more complexity, the lower the MTBF.

Not a substantial enough speed increase to powerfully deter air defenses.

I guess the idea is that you ground transport it past air defenses and accomplish objectives?

throwaway2037 | 8 hours ago

The linked page from DARPA says:

    > Achieve cruise at speeds exceeding 400 knots
Google tells me that a Boeing 737 flies (cruises) at 430–470 knots. Also, the A-10 Warthog only cruises at 300 knows.

You wrote:

    > Not a substantial enough speed increase to powerfully deter air defenses.
For modern air defenses like the Russian S-400 Triumf, pretty much all of their missiles can easily outrun (or catch!) any modern fighter jet. In your view, what speed would be "substantial enough"?

jrjeksjd8d | 7 hours ago

The role of the Osprey has, as I understand, been to transport troops into an area after it has been bombed to shit. In such a situation you've already destroyed the air defenses (or you're fighting guerillas who are relying on portable anti-air weapons)
1000 lbs is not a lot of troops

sylware | 8 hours ago

Is this a drone or a transport for delta force hit and run?

qwerty_clicks | 7 hours ago

Can we please just spend some money on social welfare and our people?

giraffe_lady | 6 hours ago

Can't even talk it about it, it's against the guidelines for being political. Asking what we will use this for is similarly political. The only nonpolitical act is admiring the war machine, apparently.